cookbooks3-msg - 1/27/02 Reviews of cookbooks with medieval recipes. Messages posted after November 1997. NOTE: See also the files: cookbooks-msg, cookbooks2-msg, cooking-bib, cookbooks-bib, cookbooks2-bib, cookbooks-SCA-msg, cb-rv-Apicius-msg, cb-novices-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with seperate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the orignator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous mark.s.harris@motorola.com stefan@florilegium.org ************************************************************************ [See cookbooks-msg for cookbook review messages posted before September 1995. See cookbooks2-msg for reviews posted between September 1995 and November 1997] Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 07:15:36 -0600 From: Maddie Teller-Kook Subject: Re: SC - Pleyn Delit question S.Albert wrote: > Earlier someone mentioned that the second edition of Pleyn Delit was okay, > but watch out for the first edition. How does one tell which edition one > has? Mine was acquired millions of years ago, probably from Poison Pen > Press, which got the remaindered ones. It was published by Toronto Press, > copyright 1976, revised and reprinted in 1979, and it's a first paperback > edition 1979. Which one is it? I didn't know there was an edition > difference. > > Morgana Actually, I am disappointed in the most recent edition of Pleyn Delit. Some of the recipes do not have the original recipe along with it. The earlier editions do. There may have been some corrections done in the second edition but again, not including the original recipe along with the translation disappointed me. Meadhbh Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:04:54 -0800 From: david friedman Subject: Re: SC - novice questions part ii At 5:08 PM -0800 12/15/97, kappler wrote: >Oh, I forgot, I have a copy of Pleyn Delit by Hieatt, Hosington and Butler, >any comments as to its value? Primary sources are more fun to work from than secondary sources, since you get to figure out the recipe yourself. With that caveat, Pleyn Delit is, so far as I know, the most reliable secondary source out there. David/Cariadoc Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:09:30 EST From: LrdRas Subject: Re: SC - Pleyn Delit question << Actually, I am disappointed in the most recent edition of Pleyn Delit. Some of the recipes do not have the original recipe along with it. The earlier editions do. There may have been some corrections done in the second edition but again, not including the original recipe along with the translation disappointed me. Meadhbh >> My apologies for ommiting this tidbit. You are certainly correct, M'Lady. The revised recipes, however, where so much closer to how I would have done them that I inadvertently skipped over the missing documentation, having it readily on hand from the first edition. Sorry. :-) Ras Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:58:18 EST From: Varju Subject: Re: SC - Eastern European Cookery Supposedly there are two cookbooks fthe late 1500's early 1600's in the Szechenyi Library in Budapest and a manuscript that contains four recipes served at the wedding of the Hungarian king Mattyas Hollos in 1475 that is in a library in Munich. (This is the original cource of my Sour Vetrece recipe) The problem in both cases would be language, although the earlier manuscript might be in Latin since that was the language of commerce in Hungary at the time. Noemi Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 08:24:11 -0800 (PST) From: Russell Gilman-Hunt Subject: SC - "first catch your peacock Courtesy of Amazon.com: Bobby Freeman has also wrote "Good Food From Wales", and I presume it's not full of senseless blubbering. Good Food from Wales by Bobby Freeman List: $24.95 Our Price: (this is not a commercial) Availability: This title usually ships within 2-3 days. Please note: we cannot guarantee delivery of this item by December 24. Visit the Gift Center for books with 24-hour availability. Hardcover, 332 pages Published by Hippocrene Books Publication date: May 1, 1997 ISBN: 0781805279 Synopsis: With over 260 recipes, this book is the definitive guide to Welsh food and customs through the centuries. Introductory chapters trace the evolution of important Welsh foodstuffs: cereals, cheese and butter, poultry and eggs, meat, fish, and fruits, flowers, and vegetables. Later chapters include recipes for traditional favorites like Blackberry Bread Pudding, Welsh Salt Duck, and Trout with Bacon. Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 08:04:33 -0600 (CST) From: alysk@ix.netcom.com (Elise Fleming) Subject: SC - Re: Worm Recipe (plus a "new" book) By the bye, I received a copy of _The Elixirs of Nostradamus_ ("Nostradamus' original recipes for elixirs, scented water, beauty potions and sweetmeats"), edited by Knut Boeser, printed by Moyer Bell, 1994. ISBN is 1-55921-155-5. Most of his facial and skin preparations include lead and other dangerous compounds. The second part of this book contains sweetmeats: preserved lemon peel, pumpkins, bitter oranges, walnuts, bitter cherries; a transparent jelly from bitter cherries and one from quinces (Who was looking for documentation for jelly??); ginger water; preserving roots of eryngos, welted thistle; preserving limes, quinces, unripe almonds; preserving the peel or rind of alkanet; candied sugar; pine-nut kernel confection; marzipan; and penide sugar. A comment on the recipe for a confection from pine-nut kernels: There is a painting in the Cleveland Museum of Art from the Renaissance which has, I am convinced, a picture of this confection. I had been on the prowl for art work with confections and spotted this in an alcove. I sketched the candy which is somewhat cube-shaped with white ovals in it. Only after I read this recipe did the picture and the recipe come together. Now I need to find pine nuts and try it out. Alys Katharine Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 16:42:08 -0800 From: "Crystal A. Isaac" Subject: Re: SC - Byzantine cooking Dan Gillespie (Antoine) wrote: > > Just a quick question, out of curiosity... > Does anyone know of any period cooking sources from the Byzantine > empire? There is Apicius & the Greek originals that it is supposed based > on, but is there anything later than that? There is a 6th century letter on food health and correct eating for kings by Anthimus, a Byzantine physician to Theoderic, King of the Franks(circa 526). It has been translated by Shirley Howard Weber in her dissertation, _Anthimus, De Observatio Ciborum: Text, Commentary, and Glossary with a Study of the Latinity. A Dissertation..._ and published by E. J. Brill Ltd., Leiden 1924. It's English translation with the Latin on the facing pages; includes a glossary and index. There's a copy in the Stanford University Library. I recently saw another translation but do not remember the translator's name. I think I saw it in Potboiler press, NY. If anyone has another source for Byzantine cooking I would love to hear about it. I wanted to do a Byzantine feast but could not find enough material. in service, Crystal of the Westermark, AoA (mka Crystal A. Isaac) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:48:36 -0700 (MST) From: "Jamey R. Lathrop" Subject: Re: SC - Byzantine cooking On Tue, 30 Dec 1997, Crystal A. Isaac wrote: > There is a 6th century letter on food health and correct eating for > kings by Anthimus, a Byzantine physician to Theoderic, King of the > Franks(circa 526). It has been translated by Shirley Howard Weber in her > dissertation, _Anthimus, De Observatio Ciborum: Text, Commentary, and > Glossary with a Study of the Latinity. A Dissertation..._ and published > by E. J. Brill Ltd., Leiden 1924. It's English translation with the > > I recently saw another translation but do not remember the translator's > name. I think I saw it in Potboiler press, NY. > Crystal of the Westermark, AoA I recently purchased the Mark Grant translation from the Food Heritage Press: _ANTHIMUS: De obseruatione ciborum, ON THE OBSERVANCE OF FOODS_, Prospect Books, 1996. ISBN 0907325 750 It also has the latin and english on opposite pages for comparison, along with historical information and great notes. Lady Allegra Beati Barony of al-Barran Outlands Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 13:42:40 -0400 From: renfrow@skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow) Subject: Re: SC - Ice Cream and Martha Washington The citation is: Hess, Karen, ed. Martha Washington's Booke of Cookery, and Booke of Sweetmeats: being a Family Manuscript, curiously copied by an unknown Hand sometime in the seventeenth century, which was in her Keeping from 1749, the time of her Marriage to Daniel Custis, to 1799, at which time she gave it to Eleanor Parke Custis, her grandaughter, on the occasion of her Marriage to Lawrence Lewis. Columbia Univ. Press. New York, 1981. The recipes contained in the MS. are dated 1550 to 1625 by the editor. FYI, Food Heritage Press has this title (newly released in paperback): http://www.shore.net/~foodbks HTH, Cindy Renfrow renfrow@skylands.net Author & Publisher of "Take a Thousand Eggs or More, A Collection of 15th Century Recipes" and "A Sip Through Time, A Collection of Old Brewing Recipes" http://www.alcasoft.com/renfrow/ Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 13:02:36 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - Ice Cream and Martha Washington I went to the State Library during lunch to find some information about Marthe Washington's Booke of Cookery, instead I find the book, so here is the skinny. Hess, Karen; Matha Washington's Booke of Cookery: Columbia University Press, New York, 1981. ISBN 0-231-04930-7. The book is two manuscripts, A Booke of Cookery and A Booke of Sweetmeats, presented to Martha Dandridge in 1749, the year she married Daniel Custis. Later the Widow Custis married George Washington, thus the title of the book. In 1799, she gave the book to her granddaughter, Nelly Custis. Ms Hess places the recipes in the manuscripts as being Elizabethan and Jacobean, dating approximately between 1550 and 1625, describing her comparison of the recipes in the manuscripts with the recipes contained in contemporary and earlier cookbooks. Bear Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 17:25:38 -0800 From: "Crystal A. Isaac" Subject: SC - King's taste comments Sabia wrote: major snip > tomorrow. Any additional comments are welcomed. An additional question I > have is how accurate are the redactions in To the Kings Taste and To the > Queens Taste? My big problem with _To the King's Taste_ is the one recipe for hippocras is really badly done. She does not quote the full source and uses ingredients (orange zest for example) not mentioned by the source. However, she does include a beverage recipe unlike most medieval cookbook authors, so I suppose I shoudn't complain. It's just that her hippocras recipe is misleading to people entering contests. It's very difficult to judge someones' documentation whne they have been mislead by an authority. Crystal of the Westermark Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 19:28:01 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - Any comments? >An additional question I >have is how accurate are the redactions in To the Kings Taste and To the >Queens Taste? > >Sabia of St Kildas {sabia@unm.edu} Sass doesn't try to be 100 per cent authentic, but she does give you the original recipe. Compare her recipe to the original to determine accuracy. Frankly, I use her books often, although I may prepare the recipe differently. Bear Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 21:56:51 -0800 From: "Anne-Marie Rousseau" Subject: Re: SC - Any comments? re: Barbara Wheaton's book "savoring the past" I love it. She does a neat job of talking about the theory of WHY people ate what they did. Also, the bibliography is great, using books in French that I've never heard of and would kill to get my hands on. I don't have much experience with the recipies she reconstructed in the back of the book, but any modern book on food history that even makes an effort at all gets kudos from me. - --Anne-Marie Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:10:09 -0500 From: Christi Redeker Subject: SC - Nice Site http://www.bahnhof.se/~chimbis/tocb/FrameRecipes.htm I don't know if this web page comes from someone in the SCA, but it is very nice work with actual RESEARCHED recipes! Murkial Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 12:40:32 -0500 From: waks@world.std.com (Jane Waks) Subject: Re: SC - Parchment, Hungarian, Titles, A Quest, and a Reminder At 14:48 18-1-98 +0000, Alys Katharine wrote: >A Quest: Of _Ovverture de Cvisine_ she writes, (p. 31) "It is the >first cookbook in French that is not a reworking of medieval recipes; >it contains an international collection of recipes both for cookery and >for confectionary. What is, to the best of my knowledge, the only >extant copy, was acquired in 1958 by the Bibliotheque Royale Albert Ier >in Brussels. The only other recorded copy was destroyed in a fire >during the Napoleonic wars. Its owner had published a partial and >faulty description of the volume before its destruction." She goes on >to say that Marx Rumpolt's _Ein new Kochbuch_, Frankfurt, 1581, is more >comprehensive. A quest??? Would anyone want to find out if >_Ovverture_ has been printed? Translated? Webbed? Still at the >Bibliotheque?? I have a copy. From the title page: "Ouverture de Cuisine, par Lancelot de Casteau. Presentation du livre par Herman Liebaers. Translation en francais moderne et glossaire par Leo Moulin. Commentaires gastronomique par Jacques Kother. 1983, De Schutter, Anvers/Bruxelles" The ISBN, which is given elsewhere, is 90-70667-05-3 There is a 33 page preface, then a facsimile of the original 1604 text, only some of the pages of the facsimile are numbered but there are approximately 160 pages. That is followed by a translation, with commentaries, into modern French, and a glossary. Yes, the *entire book* is in French. I've been planning on producing an English translation, but Life has intervened, so far. As far as I know, it has not been Webbed. I believe that some folks in An Tir have worked out some of the recipes, but I'm not in touch with them, so I don't know how far they've gotten. Caitlin Davies Carolingia, East Kingdom Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 00:20:45 -0700 (MST) From: Mary Morman Subject: Re: SC - a new (?) cookbook On 22 Jan 1998 RMcGrath@dca.gov.au wrote: > This book is to be published soon. I wondered if anyone had seen a review > copy yet? > > The Medieval Kitchen : Recipes from France and Italy > Odile Redon, et al / Hardcover / Published 1998 > Our Price: $22.75 ~ You Save: $9.75 (30%) (Not Yet > Published -- On Order) > (as seen in Amazon Books' list) > > Rakhel Petrovna I have this book in the original french (bought it at the cluny three or four years ago). assuming that the translation is done creditably, it is an -excellent- book. it has well tested recipes. i have used several. the illustrations are quite nice and a little different from the standard fare that we see repeated to death. the main sources are taillevent and le menagier and i believe that she uses the pichon edition for the originals of le menagier. This is a tall, thin 'museum' book that you are likely to see in various languages in castles and museums all over europe and the uk. elaina Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 11:34:53 SAST-2 From: "Ian van Tets" Subject: SC - cooking without fire, among others I have been reading through the Buoch von Guoter Spise, and I really don't think it's reliable as a translation. There are several inaccuracies in the definitions of common words. The exanple I will use is 'encourage' for 'ruehren', which usually means 'stir' or 'beat'. I wasn't sure of my own knowledge (I completed an honours degree in Middle High German at university but that was back in 1992) so I checked with the expert at the University of Cape Town and he checked the available literature. There is apparently no precedent for the translation of this word as encourage, but it has meant stir or beat since before AD 600. In MHG, it was used idiomatically, but always as moving something forcefully (physical, transitive). As far as I can tell, though, the gist of the recipes has not been affected. However, please please please don't get me wrong. As a cook I have no quibbles with Mistress Caterina, and honour her for the huge amount of work that she has done. If anyone can put me in touch with her so that I can discuss this matter, I'd be grateful. Cairistiona IVANTETS@BOTZOO.UCT.AC.ZA Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 21:25:39 +0100 (CET) From: Thomas Gloning Subject: SC - Re: Catalan source It seems, that the following item could be the Catalan text, you are searching for (x/, x\, x~ for letters with accent): Leimgruber, Veronika (ed.): Mestre Robert, Libre del coch. Tractat de cuina medieval (Barcelona 1520). Segona edicio/. Barcelona 1982 (Biblioteca Torres Amat 4). If memory serves (far away from my library), there seem to be several spanish (castilian) prints of this text. I know of the following editions or reprints: Ruperto de Nola: Libro de Guisados. Edicio/n y estudio por D. Pe/rez. Madrid 1929 (Nueva Biblioteca de Autores Espan~oles 9). Ruperto de Nola: Libro de cozina. Introduccio/n, notas y vocabulario de C. Iranzo. Madrid 1982. Ruperto de Nola: Libro de guisados manjares / y potajes intitulado libro de cozina. Segunda impression. Logron~o 1529. Reprint Madrid 1971. See also the paper of Allard in Lambert (ed.), Du manuscrit a\ la table Thomas Gloning Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 00:51:36 -0600 (CST) From: jeffrey s heilveil Subject: SC - Book question I found a reference for a book and I was wondering (though I hope I didn't miss a review on this one already posted) what people thought of it. Take a Thousand Eggs or More: A Translation of Medieval Recipes from Harleian MS.279, Harleian MS.4016, & Extracts of Ashmole MS.1439, Laud MS.553, & Douce MS.55, with over 100 Recipes Adapted to Modern Cookery Cindy Renfrow / Other Format / B&N Price: $27.00 - Regular discounting not available on this title.(Available in 4 - 6 Weeks / Special Order) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:53:43 +0000 From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" Subject: Re: SC - Book question And it came to pass on 11 Feb 98, that jeffrey s heilveil wrote: > I found a reference for a book and I was wondering (though I hope I > didn't miss a review on this one already posted) what people thought > of it. > > Take a Thousand Eggs or More: [snip] I own both volumes, and am happy to have them. "Thousand Eggs" gives you the original recipe, the recipe re-worded into more modern English, and (in volume 1) a redaction. They are indexed (and as a librarian, I regard that a A Very Good Thing), and have a glossary of medieval cooking terms. I have not tried any of the redactions, though they look good. Lady Brighid ni Chiarain of Tethba Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom mka Robin Carroll-Mann *** harper @ idt.net Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:51:32 -0400 From: renfrow@skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow) Subject: Re: SC - Book question >And it came to pass on 11 Feb 98, that Cindy Renfrow wrote: > >> Hello! Just a quick note to let you know that the new, improved, >> corrected, etc., etc., 2nd edition of "Take a Thousand Eggs or More" >> will be printed in a few weeks. Yay! :-) > >My Lady, > >I own the two-volume spiral-bound version (the first edition, I >presume). May I ask how the second edition differs and what the >improvements are? > >Lady Brighid ni Chiarain of Tethba Hello! The major changes are: - - re-written most of the book - - completely re-proofread & corrected the originals & translations - - more than 20 newly adapted recipes added to Vol. 1 - - improved some of the 1st ed. adaptations - - added the quantity & suggested number of servings - - expanded the how-to section and glossary - - added more illustrations - - expanded the index & bibliography - - omitted some extraneous stuff The new edition will be wire-bound with a green & cream-colored cover. Cindy/Sincgiefu renfrow@skylands.net Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 21:34:42 -0800 From: david friedman Subject: Re: SC - Redacting At 2:44 PM -0500 2/25/98, donna_m_smith@icpphil.navy.mil wrote: > Where does one get ahold of these books? Or does one borrow them, or go >to the library to use them (because, for instance, they're huge or expensive >or hard to get)? This leads to obvious questions for a newbie like me, such >as, how does one learn to redact? How does one redact? 1. Both of the books I mentioned are published by the Early English Text Society. Amazon.com lists Curye at 39.95, with 4-6 week availability. They list _Two Fifteenth Century_ as out of print with no price given. But ... 2. _Two Fifteenth_, being long out of copyright, is included in Volume I of the collection of sources I sell. Current price is $12 including postage. I am, however, about out, so orders will probably have to wait for my next printing, which should be in a week or two. Also, I should warn you that Volume I is reduction copied, four pages of source to one 8 1/2 x 11 page, so not always easy on the eyes. It has something around a thousand pages of source material. Volume II ($9) is shorter, only two pages to a page, and consists mostly of cookbook translations I have organized. One learns to redact by redacting. One starts with a period recipe and tries to make it, keeping track of what you do (period recipes rarely contain unnecessary details such as quantities, temperatures, or times) and using trial and error. For more details, come to the class Elizabeth and I will probably be teaching at Pennsic on cooking from period sources. David/Cariadoc http://www.best.com/~ddfr/ Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 09:31:03 +0000 (GMT) From: Daria Anne Rakowski Subject: SC - Excerpt from medieval cookbooks (FWD) (fwd) Maybe I am repeating enquiries here but has anyone come across this book before? It was forwarded to me from a friend who knows of my cooking habit. Thank-you in advance. Coll The following, while in part a commercial announcement, also contains free information, so I have decided to pass it on. Bon appetite! Rob ********** The cuisine of the Middle Ages has been unfairly maligned. For a taste of medieval cooking take a look at six recipes available on our website, including Chicken with Fennel, Inside-Out Stuffed Fresh Sardines or Anchovies, or the ever-popular Orange Omelette for Harlots and Ruffians. Read the recipes at: http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/706842.html This web feature is in celebration of our imminent publication of _The Medieval Kitchen: Recipes from France and Italy_, the best of medieval gastronomy rescued from obscurity and adapted for the modern kitchen. In his foreword Georges Duby said: "To open this book is to set your mouth watering." We hope you'll agree. - -------------------------------- Dean Blobaum The University of Chicago Press dblobaum@press.uchicago.edu Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 07:54:44 -0700 (MST) From: Mary Morman Subject: Re: SC - Excerpt from medieval cookbooks (FWD) (fwd) I checked out the web site and this is the long promised translation of Odile Redon's "Le Gastronomie du Moyen Age". I picked it up in the original French in the Cluny museum in Paris some four or five years ago and have also heard about both german and italian translations. Assuming that the translation to English is done well, this is an excellent and very valuable book. In the original French it gives the original of each ofthe recipes (almost all from French or Italian sources) and then a translation into modern French. I'm assuming that in this English translation the original will sill be there and a translation into English will follow. The book leans heavily on Le Menagier and Taillevent and Platina, but (as I remember) has a number of more obscure sources that I had not seen before. Well worth buying. You really want this book! elaina Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 01:00:50 -0800 From: david friedman Subject: SC - Menagier translation webbed I have just finished putting Janet Hinson's translation of _Le Menagier_ on my web page. Most of the work (correcting the OCR'ed text) was done by Elizabeth. The URL for the table of contents is: http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Medieval/Menagier/Menagier_Contents.html David/Cariadoc http://www.best.com/~ddfr/ Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:35:34 -0700 (MST) From: Mary Morman Subject: SC - Re: your mail On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, L Herr-Gelatt and J R Gelatt wrote: > Arlene Silikovitz wrote: > ------------------------------ > >Q: How does one get the book Fabulous Feasts? > A: By being a very bad girl! It's a very bad book! > > Seriously, you can get it at any reasonably well stocked book store. But > don't try the recipes. I don't want to be responsible for your ill-health. > The non-recipe portion of the book is quite good. The author admitted, > somewhere online, that some of the recipes were made-up to be medieval-ish. > In truth, nearly all of them are just plain gross. > > Aoife There is an excellent review of Fabulous Feasts on line at the Serve It Forth! web site at: http://oldcolo.com/~memorman/sif_home.html My lord husband attended a lecture given my Cosman some 20 years ago where she admitted, verbally, that she had made up a number of the recipes, like the parsley bread, because they seemed "medieval". Elaina Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:26:42 +0100 From: "Yeldham, Caroline S" Subject: SC - Cook Books Angelique said >P.S. I have the following books: >Fast and Feast by Bridget Ann Henisch. Very useful on theory >Pleyn Delit, 2nd edition, by Constance Hieatt,Brenda Hosington and >Sharon Butler. Anything by Constance Hieatt - Ordinance of Pottage, and the latest one whos' name I've forgotten (which is slightly less user friendly - the originals are at the front and the redactions at the back). >Fabulous Feasts by Madeleine Pelner Cosman the text at the front is OK and quite informative (although she does assume what was going on in London is true of the whole country - and Henisch is better). Don't touch the recipes with a bargepole (as everyone else has said). She has also published a book on holidays, which suffers from the same faults (P.W Hammond's book is better). >and the Medieval Cookbook by Maggie Black This is the British Museum publication? Probably the collection of their little cookbooks, so the medieval section is by her (and she edited) and the 16th century section by Peter Brears (who is also very good, especially at sugarwork - he organises the cooking at Hampton Court each year). Nice little collections - a very good recipe for pike. She also wrote a book for the Weald and Downland Museum which I haven't seen. Caroline Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 15:07:32 +0200 From: Jessica Tiffin Subject: SC - Sugared Nuts and Cookbooks (was: Tiramisu) Elizabeth of Dendermonde/Betty Cook replied to the mention of: >>the Medieval Cookbook by Maggie Black >I don't know this one. This was the first medieval cookbook I ever acquired (courtesy of my mother and the Past Times stores in Britain). It's pretty good, in that Black does include all the primary sources for her recipes, often several variations from different sources. I've found, though, that at times she over-modernises them a little in her redactions - I tend to find myself adapting back to the original at some points, in rejection of her updated style. It's a lovely, glossy book with beautiful pictures, mostly from medieval sources, many in colour. She seems to draw mostly from The Goodman of Paris, Two 15th-Century Cookery Books, Curye on Inglysch and a couple of others. In service, Melisant Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 23:15:56 -0800 From: david friedman Subject: Re: SC - Piquant foods At 9:47 PM -0500 4/1/98, LrdRas wrote: >You also mentioned a India period recipe source...has this been published and >how would one obtain a translation? The _Ain I Akbari_, which is one volume of the _Akbarnamah_, contains ingredient lists, with quantities but without instructions, for (I think) 24 dishes--also instructions for flat bread and for distilling arrack (and lots of other neat stuff about 16th c. Mughal culture). It was translated into English in (I think) the late 19th c., reprinted in (I think) the 1930's. I believe a few of the recipes derived from it are in the current _Miscellany_ and the supplementary recipes on my web page. David/Cariadoc http://www.best.com/~ddfr/ Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 07:09:43 -0600 From: vjarmstrong@aristotle.net (Valoise Armstrong) Subject: SC - Re: German Cookbooks I hate to reply to the whole list, but I didn't save Nicoltte Dufay's e-mail address and I wanted to ask her about her cooking experiences with a particular book. About a week ago she asked for opinions a cookbook with a title similar to German Cookbook of the Middle Ages. I was just going back over a bibliography to something I'm working on and found Trude Ehlert's Das Kochbuch des Mittelalters (Zürich: Artemis Verlag, 1990). Is this the one you meant? This is a great book, with a short historical essay and a good number of recipes with the original text and redactions. Some of the texts she uses are manuscripts that have never been published and are, therefore, inaccessible to those of us stuck in the U.S. I've always wanted to try some of the redactions, but I never got around to it. I'd be interested in how the feast produced from them came out. Valoise Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 16:37:43 EDT From: geneviamoas@juno.com Subject: Re: SC - late period french food. Greetings oh learned ones and those well read and experienced too: Speaking of french food. Has anyone read and hold a sharable opinion on the book _ Early French Cookery: sources, history, original recipes, and modern adaptations_ by D. Eleanor Scully & Terence Scully. University of Michigan Press c. 1995. Or _ Painters and food : Renaissance Recipes_ by Gillian Riley . Pomegranate Artbooks, San Francisco, c.1993. Thank you for your input. Genevia Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 06:01:17 GMT From: korny@zikzak.net (Kornelis Sietsma) Subject: Re: SC - late period french food. On Sun, 05 Apr 1998 16:37:43 EDT, geneviamoas@juno.com wrote: >Greetings oh learned ones and those well read and experienced too: >Speaking of french food. Has anyone read and hold a sharable opinion on >the book _ Early French Cookery: sources, history, original recipes, and >modern adaptations_ by D. Eleanor Scully & Terence Scully. University of >Michigan Press c. 1995. I recently got this from www.amazon.com, and it looks excellent. It is a pity that the original texts are untranslated, but most of them are from fairly easily found sources (like the good ol' Menagier) if you want a translation. The redactions I've looked at seem feasible, and the general discussion is very interesting also. And there are a *lot* of very tasty looking recipes... - -Korny William Bekwith MKA Kornelis Sietsma | http://zikzak.net/~korny Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:47:27 +1000 From: Robyn Probert Subject: RE: SC - Book reviews >I am reviewing The Original Mediterranean Cuisine. > >Murkial This is a great book which I have been cooking out of for some time now (it was published here in Australia). I won't spoil the forthcoming book review, but it is a bit of a "must have". Rowan - ----------------------------------------------------------------- Robyn Probert Customer Service Manager Phone +61 2 9239 4999 Services Development Manager Fax +61 2 9221 8671 Lawpoint Pty Limited Sydney NSW Australia Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 19:25:43 -0500 From: allilyn@juno.com (LYN M PARKINSON) Subject: Re: SC - late period french food. Re: Scully's books on French food. He has two out. I've got both--one is mostly text, the other has recipes. I like them very much. He is a scholar, and includes information I've found nowhere else. I'd say they are good additions to anyone's library. As always, cross-reference, cross-reference, cross-reference. Allison allilyn@juno.com Master Chirurgeon, Companion des Lindquistrings, Princess' Order of Courtesy Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 14:28:17 -0600 (MDT) From: Mary Morman Subject: Re: SC - FW: New Medieval cookbook > -----Original Message----- > From: L. Ruggiero [SMTP:larug@interfold.com] > Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 1998 7:12 PM > To: outlands@mail.unm.edu > Subject: New Medieval cookbook > > I just today received my lastest orderfrom amazon.com... a new Medieval > cookbook. > > Title: The Medieval Kitchen: Recipes from France and Italy > by Odile Redon, Francoise Sabban, & Silvano Serventi, translated by Edward > Schneider ISBN: 0-226-70684-2 > cover price: $32.50 (amazon.com does give a discount, I got it for $22.75 + > S&H) > 285 pages > Hardcover > Due out June 1, 1998 (but obviously available now) > > I like the look and organization of this book. Each recipe starts out with > a translation of the Medieval recipe (with source) , followed by a > paragraph or three of assorted info about the recipe, then the recipe > itself (with American and metric measurements). > > The section before the recipes (there are 153) goes over something of > history, background, and menus. After the recipe sections, the medieval > texts (recipies) in what i assume is Medieval French and Italian, a > bibliography of primary and secondary sources, and a few mail order sources. > > I can't wait to try some of these recipes. > > Thalia Lavalle (mka Laura Ruggiero) I got two copies of this book yesterday from amazon.com. One for myself and one for my apprentices. Come on over, Murkial! I think this is destined to be -THE- new book for SCA cooking. It is well-written, well-translated, and gives plenty of background for the recipes and the period. the illustrations, both color and black and white, are excellent. the sources, mostly french and italian with a few others thrown in, cover all the well-known ones (le menagier, platina, taillevent, etc) but also a few little known manuscripts that definitely add something new to my view of the corpus. I have had the French original of this book for about five years, and have been very eager to see the English translation (there are also German and Italian translations). It's as good as the original. I was a little put off at first that the recipes included as the original a translation into English of the original, and then a modern redaction. But all of the actual originals in the original language are in an appendix at the back of the book for you to refer to if you want to check out the translation. I recommend that this is one to buy and use. we will see a lot of it. Elaina Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 15:24:48 -0600 (MDT) From: Mary Morman Subject: Re: SC - FW: New Medieval cookbook The original title is La Gastronomie au Moyen Age by Odile Redon. The English translation that has just been released is The Medieval Kitchen, Recipes from France and Italy. ISBN 0-226-70684-2. It is really a stunner. Elaina Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 14:09:50 -0500 From: vjarmstrong@aristotle.net (Valoise Armstrong) Subject: RE: SC - Re: sources of sources. Bear wrote: >Of the cookbooks, the only one I think may have been commercially copied is >Apicius, which was published about 1498, having been derived from two 9th >Century manuscripts which were apparently copied from a 4th Century >manuscript. There are at least two more titles that extremely popular starting in the late fifteenth century and continuing into the sixteenth. Platina's De honesta voluptate (taken from Martino's Libro de Arte Coquinairia) first showed up about 1475, underwent at least 16 Latin editions and was translated into Italian (1487), French (1505), and German (c. 1542) as well as being widely plagiarized by other authors. Kuchenmeisterei was printed first in 1485 and continued to be printed under various titles for almost two hundred years. I don't know if it was ever translated into any other languages. Valoise Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 22:00:29 -0400 From: Bonne Subject: Re: SC - Jellies vs. aspics > Elizabeth writes: > >>The use of sugar to preserve fruit in the form of jam or jelly seems to be > just coming in at this period, so in this case I would be hesitant to take > Digby as evidence for what was being done in England sixty years earlier.<< > > Approximate 60 years (1604) earlier Elenor Fettiplace had her recipes written > into a book. She was born ca. 1570 and had a 15 year old son in 1604, so had > been married for awhile. Her book contains a number of recipes for preserves > and for whole fruits perserved in clear jellies. Would this be considered a > primary source? > > I'm going to make a leap of faith here (as opposed to an assumption) that, as > sugar started becoming more redily available in England ca. 1550, Eleanor did > not come up with all these recipes between 1600 and 1604, but was using them > during her entire married life and may have been taught some or all of them > from her mother before she was married. > > Renata As I understood the notes at the beginning and the end of the book, although the bulk of the work seems to have been copied out from collected notes all at once, there were additions made by several hands at undetermined times as the book was passed along in the familiy. The current owner/editor of the published version doesn't consistently indicate whether or not a recipe is in the original hand, or one of the later hands. Those wanting to be very scrupulous about periodness will want to wait until an edition with that sort of detail is available. Bonne Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:34:58 -0500 From: "John Henschen" Subject: SC - Has anyone had the pleasure of looking through this book? MORRIS, RICHARD. "Liber Cure Cocorum." Copied and Edited from the Sloane Ms. 1986. Berlin: published for the Philological Society by A. Asher & Co., 1862. First edition, 8vo, iv & 61pp., original gray paper wrappers; spine partially perished. A curious Northumbrian poem of the fifteenth century on cookery, "treating a great variety of dishes under the titles of potages, broths, roasted meats, baked meats, sauces and "petecure" " (introduction), with an index of words, dishes, etc. Scarce. Bitting, p. 331. From the library of 19th century runic scholar George Stephens. Book# 6271 US$ 225.00. Please contact Rulon-Miller Books (ABAA / ILAB) for more information about purchasing this book. This looks like an amazing book, but I don't think I'd spend that much $$ on a book I couldn't even touch first, or have an opinion from someone I trust. Celadon Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 12:03:40 EDT From: melc2newton@juno.com Subject: Re: SC - Kvass. On Thu, 16 Jul 1998 19:18:38 -0400 Philip & Susan Troy writes: >melc2newton@juno.com wrote: >> Here is some documentable stuff on Kvass from the Domostroi, which >>is a household rulebook from 16th C. Muscovy: > >Do we have a more specific date for the Domestroi? I was under the >impression it was early 17th century... According to the Pouncy in the Introduction: The colloquial Russian in which most of the text was written dates no earlier than the accession to the throne of Ivan III in 1462 and probably not much later than the death of his grandson Ivan IV in 1584. For several reasons - including terminology used, customs described, and the inclusion in early manuscripts of a chapter written by Sil'vestr, a priest who served in the Kremlin Cathedral of the Annunciation from 1545 to 1556 (approximately) - it most likely appeared sometime in the 1550's. >Adamantius Beatrix Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:00:59 -0800 From: david friedman Subject: SC - The Dating of Domestroi (was: Kvass) Beatrix quoted the kvass recipe from Domestroi as 16th century, and Adamantius asked: >>Do we have a more specific date for the Domestroi? I was under the >>impression it was early 17th century... and Beatrix replied: >According to the Pouncy in the Introduction: > The colloquial Russian in which most of the text was written > dates no earlier than the accession to the throne of Ivan III > in 1462 and probably not much later than the death of his > grandson Ivan IV in 1584. ... it most likely appeared sometime > in the 1550's. It is actually more complicated than that. Domestroi was a very popular book in an era of hand-copying, so there was no definitive text; it got revised and added to over time. Pouncy discusses the different versions that have survived and what she believes is the sequence of additions over time, and concludes that while the earliest version (her Short Version) is from the 16th c., "between 1600 and 1625, three unrelated chapters with menus and recipes...became associated with the Long Version; shortly thereafter they received numbers and became Chapters 64-66." The kvass recipe, together with various mead recipes, is out of Chapter 65. So yes, the main part of the text is 16th c., but the kvass recipe is early 17th c. Elizabeth/Betty Cook Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 00:06:49 -0800 From: david friedman Subject: Re: SC - Badinjan Muhassa At 9:14 AM -0400 7/22/98, LrdRas@aol.com wrote: ><< Walnuts appear in the recipe for Badinjan Muhassa, which is in a collection > assembled in the 10th century. > > David/Cariadoc >> > >Where could a person obtain this collection? Is it published? By whom? , etc. >Thanks in advance. The Arabic text was published by Studia Orientalia in Helsinki. There is no published translation of the collection. I have a few recipes that Charles Perry translated, including Badinjan Muhassa. David/Cariadoc http://www.best.com/~ddfr/ Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:12:19 EDT From: melc2newton@juno.com Subject: Re: SC - I need some info... writes:> >As a birthday present I got a copy of a book called The Medieval Cookbook >by Maggie Black. With a glance it doesn't look too bad. It includes all >the originals and the redactions are understandable. It aslo gives a fair >bit of history and bibliography. Does anyone else have it? and if so what >are their opinions on this one? > >-Sianan I found a copy at the Ozark Tech College's library and I thought it was a very good book. Not only does it have the originals in it, but I thought Maggie did a good job in picking recipes that people just starting to cook , or starting to cook medievally, would not be afraid to try.(a problem I'm trying to solve at my own shire) Beatrix Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 21:38:00 -0500 From: vjarmstrong@aristotle.net (Valoise Armstrong) Subject: Re: SC - Ein Alemannisches Buchlien von guter Speise Master Osgot wrote >I have been working on translating this recipe collection and I would love >to compare notes with anyone else interested in it. >I have been working from a transcript of Ein Alemannisches Buchlien von >guter Speise from the internet but I would like to get hold of a facsimile >copy of the original as there are several points in the text where I believe >an incorrect transcription has been made. >I look forward to your comments The transcription on Thomas Gloning's web page was done in the 19th C. by Anton Birlinger and published in 1865. If you contacted Dr. Gloning he could tell you more, but I was under the impression this is the only transcription of that manuscript. I'm not sure what repository it's in, but the 1865 publication was from Munich. For those who asked, I don't have the exact url, maybe Bear does since he was the one who asked for input. Gloning's wonderful bibliography on German cookery, wine, etc. is at http://www.uni-giessen.de/~g909/cookbib.htm You should be able to find his home page, Ein alemannisches Buchlein, and an e-mail address from there. Valoise Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 10:18:40 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy Subject: Re: SC - McKendry & Horizon?? Gerekr@aol.com wrote: > Opinions please... > > Being limited to a fixed space for cookbooks, and recently having added a > number of much more recent, authenticity-oriented titles, I was wondering > if I'd be losing much, besides the illustrations, if I let go of Maxime > McKendry's Seven Centuries Cookbook (1973) and the 2-volume Horizon > Cookbook (1968). I suggest you find a good home for the McKendry book. While there are better secondary sources available now, it has a few really good redactions in it, and I generally like to treat such sources that were once state-of-the-art, even if now superceded, with respect. I'll even stop giving away copies of Fabulous Feasts when I'm down to one copy. I think they multiply on the shelves, though. As for the Horizon book, it does have some good stuff in it, although it does have the weaknesses you mention. It also has some archaic foods from sources we generally don't encounter in the SCA, I suspect. Basically, no book is without value (although that Charlotte Adams Complete Cooking Course comes pretty close!) Adamantius Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 21:39:46 EDT From: LrdRas@aol.com Subject: SC - Scully In a message dated 8/26/98 3:50:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, meadhbh@io.com writes: << Early French Cooking by Terence Scully >> Although the information in this book is fascinating he and his wife take great liberties in redacting the recipes so that the majority of them are not exactly authentic. The Scully's tend to substitute items because they think their substitution makes a better dish and they also leave ingredients out that the original called for. The background information is generally quite sound, however. They also present a good case for the 'Humor' theory of medicine as it pertains to cookery although they fall far short of convincing me that the majority of medieval cooks really cared about such things. All in all it was an interesting read but their recipes although VERY tasty fall short of being seriously authentic. Ras Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 22:26:09 -0500 From: Stefan li Rous Subject: SC - Scully Ras said: meadhbh@io.com writes: ><< Early French Cooking by Terence Scully >> >The background information is generally quite sound, however. They also >present a good case for the 'Humor' theory of medicine as it pertains to >cookery although they fall far short of convincing me that the majority of >medieval cooks really cared about such things. There is another article on medieval humoral theory by Scully that those interested in humoral thought and how they affected medieval cooking should read. I think he makes a good case and it does explain some of the oddities of medieval cooking but I am still unconvinced that it is the only explanation. This article is: "Mixing it up in the Medieval Kitchen" by Terence Scully, Wilfred Laurier University. I found it in a book I bought at Pennsic: "Medieval Food and Drink", ACTA, Vol. XXI. The Center for Medieval and Early Renaissance Studies. Binghamton University, State University of New York. 1995 ISSN 0361-7491. It wasn't a cheap book, $20 for 145 pages, but I'm wondering if the other volumes are as interesting and will probably inquire further about them. The ACTA ad in the back mentions proceedings of some SUNY Regional Comferances and I may check on these, too. Particularly number II on the Twelfth Century. Stefan li Rous stefan@texas.net Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 08:22:45 -0700 From: "Anne-Marie Rousseau" Subject: Re: SC - The British Museum Cookbook Hey all from Anne-Marie we are asked about the British Museum Cookbook... > Can anyone tell me about this book? Found a recipe on-line with this as > documentation but don't know time periods, etc. about it. > Its a little book from...the British Musuem! I have it, and while theres intriguing sections on all kinds of fun time periods, there's not a primary source to be found. Rats! - --AM Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 10:34:39 -0500 From: Shari Burnham Subject: Re: SC - The British Museum Cookbook I have this book too, and Anne-marie is correct, there are no primary sources. It is a really fun cookbook. Being vegetarian, there are alot of dishes that I have tried from this cookbook and have been very happy with the tastes. Haven't tried the meat dishes, anyone who has this book, any comments on the meat dishes? Elisabeth Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 13:11:51 PDT From: "Rebecca E Tants" Subject: SC - PPC - Petits Propos Culinaires I was wandering around a used book store today and found 13 issues of the journal from the above group. The journal focuses on "food, food history, cookery and cookery books." These little ~60 page books are fascinating! The one's I have date from 1987-1992 (the journal was issued 3 times per year) and each one has at least one good article/paper on historical cooking! (for example, #27, the first one, has an article on the history of "les galettes des rois", the cakes served at epiphany with the bean in where the person who finds it is the king for the day, citing sources back to the 13th century, a short discussion and photocopies of a couple of pages from a book in french that the author suspects was written in 1562 by Mary Queen of Scots or member of her household, the refutation of a scholarly work that was trying to prove baklava documentable to a 3rd century byzantine book and a bunch of book reviews (including Scully's Chiquart on Cookery) and some letters from readers on all sorts of topics! And That's just the first of 13! Anyway, does anyone know if this organization still exists? I'm going to send a letter to the US address in the back of the last book (the organization is based in the UK), but if anyone knows anything else about this organization, I'd love to hear it! Caitlen Ruadh Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 16:54:53 EDT From: Acanthusbk@aol.com Subject: Re: SC - PPC - Petits Propos Culinaires retants@hotmail.com writes: SNIP > Anyway, does anyone know if this organization still exists? I'm going > to send a letter to the US address in the back of the last book (the > organization is based in the UK), but if anyone knows anything else > about this organization, I'd love to hear it! > > Caitlen Ruadh Petits Propos Culinaires issues the following statement to those who inquire about subscribing: "We are often asked to tell people what our journal PPC (Petits Propos Culinaires) is. The short answer is that is is a semi-academic periodical which comes out three times a year and deals with food, cookery and cookery books; that is usually runs to 64 or 72 pages, none occupied by advertisements; and that the contributors are a mixture of professional writers and amateurs. All issues are illustrated, in black and white (reproductions of old engravings and woodcuts, etc., plus drawings commissioned for PPC). PPC is not a collection of recipes, although most issues contain some recipes of particular interest. These recipes have often been embodied in articles, eg by the late elizabeth David and Richard Olney (both of whom played an important part in founding PPC). Extensive Book Reviews and an item called Notes and Queries are also regular features. The latter provides a forum for reports on research in progress and for posing questions which readers may be able to answer. Present subscription rates (postage included) are as follows: In the UK six issues are GBP23.50, three issues are GBP12.00; In the USA six issues are $45.00, three issues are $23.50; Elsewhere six issues are GBP26.00, three issues are GBP13.50. If you would like to subscribe send your cheque to: PPC (Petits Propos Culinaires) 45 Lamont Road London SW10 0HU tel/fax (0)171 351 1242 Email: aedavidson@compuserve.com Your name and address should be clearly indicated as well as the type of subscription chosen and the amount of money you enclosed. We're sorry that we cannot accept payment by credit cards, as we are far too small an operation for that! However, regular US dollar checks are perfectly acceptable - made out, please, to "PPCNA", sterling cheques should be made out to "Prospect Books Ltd." Subscriptions can start at any point in the calendar year. New subscribers will be started off, unless they request otherwise, with whatever is the current issue when their subscription is received. Back numbers [back issues]. These are currently all available, with substantial discounts for people ordering large numbers. Just tell us what you would like and we will let you know the cost. By the way, the back numbers which contain cumulative indexes are: 16 (covering 1-15); 26 (16-25); 36 (26-35); 46 (36-45); and 56 (46-55). All prices include postage. However, subscribers in Asia, Africa, Australasia who wish to receive their copies by airmail will need to pay extra - just ask and we'll give you the details. (Copies going to subscribers in North America are all air-lifted to New York City and put into the US postal system there.)" You might be interested to know that PPC's founder Alan Davidson also founded Prospect Books, which publishes all those wonderful facsimiles of historically noteworthy cookbooks. Mr. Davidson now focuses his efforts on publishing PPC, while Prospect Books is run by Tom Jaine. Beginning this fall Acanthus Books will maintain a complete inventory of all back issues of PPC. If you're searching for PPC articles addressing a particular topic of interest I'll be happy to make recommendations. Amanda ******************ACANTHUS BOOKS**************** Most Complete Selection of In-Print US & UK Antique Cookbook Facsimiles and Transcriptions Complete Works of Elizabeth David & Jane Grigson Request A Catalog......Acanthusbk@aol.com Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 10:37:44 EDT From: Acanthusbk@aol.com Subject: Re: SC - PPC - Petits Propos Culinaires-Online Index Forgot to mention in the last post that there is an online index to PPC, although only for recent issues 46-55, at: http://members.tripod.com/~rdeh/index.html There is some additional background information about the history of PPC. This is Russell Harris' homepage, and also includes an index to the Oxford Symposium proceedings for the years 1981-1994. Acanthus Books has available proceeding from the years 1986-current. Earlier years are OP and available as used books. Amanda Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 10:40:45 EDT From: Acanthusbk@aol.com Subject: Re: SC - PPC - Petits Propos Culinaires-Online Index Hadn't looked at this page for awhile, and see now that Mr. Harris has added a downloadable text file containing the index for PPC issues 1-55, so that makes for a complete index with the exception of the few most recent issues. Amanda Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 09:28:17 -0500 From: mfgunter@fnc.fujitsu.com (Michael F. Gunter) Subject: Re: SC - Yet another cookbook enquiry > I recently got another medieval cookbook that I'd like some opinions on. > The tile is 'A Taste Of History. 10,000 years of food in Britain.' The > Author is Maggie Black. > -Sianan My lady brought this book back from her studies in England and Alys D. and I fought over it all the time. I love this book. The one problem with it is that it doesn't give the original translation for many of the recipes but it does a good job of breaking the recipes down historically. Plus, it's a gorgeous book. Gunthar Subject: Re: ANST --..Historical references to beans... Date: Tue, 08 Sep 98 16:57:48 MST From: peerage1 To: ansteorra@Ansteorra.ORG > At any rate, I would not serve what we in the U.S. call "green beans" at an > "authentic" Medieval feast. They would be Renaissance at best. > > Bear Okay Bear, it's renaissence...but heres what you requested...Reference for your beans: fourteenth century. 154. D'autres menuz potaiges...: Other Lesser Pottages, such as stewed chard, cabbage, turnip greens, leeks, veal in Yellow Sauce, and plain shallot pottage, peas, frenched beans, mashed beans, sieved beans or beans in their shell, pork offal, brewet of pork tripe -- women are experts with these and anyone knows how to do them; as for tripe, which I have not put in my recipe book, it is common knowledge how it is to be eaten. The Viandier of Taillevent This book is in Print, as well as the two 15th century other cook books which have also been out of print for awhile and are back in-although I haven't gotten my hands on those, due to they are reprints of 18th century ones of the manscripts. Here's the site: it's called serious books for serious cooks :), just for the fun of corruption. http://www.foodbooks.com/welcome.htm The Viandier of Taillevent: An Edition of all Extant Manuscripts. Edited by Terence Scully. The Viandier is the most important early recipe collection of medieval France. Written in the fourteenth century by Guillaume Tirel (alias Taillevent), the chief cook of King Charles V of France, it is the starting point of many culinary traditions and practices that remain at the base of modern French haute cuisine. This volume is the first to present all four extant manuscripts of the Viandier, arranged in parallel for easy comparison. The texts of the 220 recipes are in the original French, but a complete English translation is provided. University of Ottawa Press. 330 pp. ©1988 $35.00 Hardcover. Two Fifteenth-Century Cookery-Books. Edited by Thomas Austin. The ancient cookeries edited in this volume have been copied from Harleian MSS, 297 and 4016, in the British Museum. The first MS. is divided into three parts, the first, headed Kalendare de Potages dyuers, containing 153 recipes; the second part, Kalendare de Leche Metys, has 64 recipes, and the third Part, Dyuerse bake metis, 41 recipes. Published for The Early English Text Society by the Oxford University Press. 151 pages. Unaltered reprint of the 1888 edition in 1996. $45.00 Hardcover. (Now Available - copies arrived from England on July 3rd) Rayah Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 20:16:02 EDT From: LrdRas@aol.com Subject: SC - Pleyn Delyt In a message dated 9/10/98 9:59:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, meadhbh@io.com writes: << Try and find the first edition if you can. The second edition is missing some of the original recipes. >> One of the many things that make this list interesting is it;s diversity of opinions. ;-) I would HIGHLY recommend the second edition of Pleyn Delyt because the recipes have been redacted more closely to the originals and several obvious errors that occured in the first edition have been corrected. The recipes in the first edition are 'GOOD" but the recipes in the second edition are even closer to excepted period redactions and are , IMO, wonderfully edible for the most part. :-) But in the end, a copy of this book in whatever edition is a good thing to have. You can also start plowing through Stefan's files which are a wealth of information. and Cariadoc's Miscellany, which is on-line is a good source for beginners and experienced SCA cooks alike. Ras Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:20:08 EDT From: Jgoldsp@aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Period Polish Cooking and Books.../helpful info... The only book I have located by name and it is post period is;compendium Ferculorum by Stanislaw Czerniecki he was a chef the book is dated 1682 but as far as I can deduce not avalible in english or polish .It was used by Adam Mickiewicz when he recreated the picture or the Old Polish feast in the 12th chapter of Pan Tadeusz. Maybe you can have better luck than me. Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 07:01:15 EDT From: WOLFMOMSCA@aol.com Subject: Re: SC - leeks recipe In a message dated 98-10-06 04:06:32 EDT, Cariadoc writes: << Does _To The Kings Taste_ give either the original recipe or a cite to it? This sounds like something very loosely based on funges >> Yes, the original Funges recipe is given. _To the King's Taste_ wasn't written for historical re-enactors. It was written for modern cooks 23 years ago. This does not, IMO, preclude it from being used as a basis for cooking in a medieval context. Practice with the ingredients and the language will allow people to utilize this little book quite well. As cooks get better at doing redactions themselves, the book becomes less of a cookbook and more of a cheat sheet. Beginners find it useful, as I did when I started cooking for the SCA 22 years ago. It was all we had back then. I still use it, and its companion volume, _To The Queen's Taste_. I have my own personal problems with some of the redactions, and when I do, I use my own redactions, not Dr. Sass's. It's still a great place to start. Wolfmother Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 02:28:31 EDT From: Gerekr@aol.com Subject: SC - Vivendier? While poking about bookstore sites, I came across this recent item... Scully, Terence (ed & trans): VIVENDIER ; Pprospect Devon (Eng) 129 pp Paper New 54.3 The culinary portion of an extensive 15th century French manuscript now residing in Kassel, Germany. Recipes given in their original tongue and in translation with commentary. Fortunately, the work has been done by Terence Scully who has long been working with culinary manuscripts from the same period and is uniquely qualified to interpret them to a modern audience. Contains series of appendices. Offered for sale by Food Words at US$24.00 Has anybody seen this? Opinions? Chimene Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 17:47:10 EDT From: LrdRas@aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Re: Vivendier g.walli@infoengine.com writes: << Good grief! Have I been laboring under false assumptions all this time and avoiding the Scully books for no reason? >> IMO, Scully relays some very useful info. Certainly better than Fabulous Feasts. I bought 2 of his books at War and enjoyed reading them a lot. The 'errors' are obvious enough that most students of cookery will recognize them at a glance. His chapter detailing a day in the life of Master Chiquart in 'Early French Cookery' is worth the price alone. As with any work dealing with any number of subjects Scully's are no worse and in many ways far better than some of the trash that passes for 'scholarly' tomes. I recommend purchase. :-) Ras Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 12:19:14 -0400 From: Phil & Susan Troy Subject: Re: SC - Re: Vivendier Gaylin Walli wrote: > > Phlip wrote: > >If it's Scully, it's likely pretty good. I was looking at buying > >it myself. > > Really? I've been laboring under the assumption that there were > far better sources to use. I admit to knowing little about the > subject, but I had thought that other members of the list > believed that Scully was not up to snuff in the arena of > redacting/translation/creation/whatever due to use of non-period > ingredients. I'd say he is more inclined to use non-period methods, or period ingredients in ways the original recipe doesn't specify. He is, of course, married to a professional chef, and is also probably not intending his work for use by re-creationist types. So, for example, in giving university students a taste of the sort of flavors one would have encountered in a meal based on Taillevents, he has chosen to produce a baked stuffed chicken breast rather than simply stuffing the whole bird. One could certainly argue that this doesn't provide an authentic view of the topic for someone interested in period re-creation, but I don¹t believe that's necessarily what Scully is about. On the plus side, his translation is generally quite a good one, and he provides original text from all the known manuscripts of le Viandier, with commentary on the recipes (with line-by-line comparisons between the different manuscripts), including a lot of information on the medical theory which, in some cases, leads to certain decisions being made, like whether to parboil chickens before roasting, for example. > Good grief! Have I been laboring under false assumptions all > this time and avoiding the Scully books for no reason? Well, maybe. It depends on what you're looking for. If you want a simple, readable book of modernly adapted medieval recipes, Scully is not your man. If you want to learn more about medieval cookery, after having cooked from the former book of adapted recipes, I would recommend Scully. I can think of only one or two scholars in the field of culinary history I value more; they're probably Constance Hieatt and Karen Hess, not necessarily in that order. He has an excellent translation of Chiquart, too, BTW. Adamantius Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 04:16:12 -0700 From: "Conni Hazelwood" Subject: RE: SC - Cookbook review? I have a copy that I picked up in my local Half- Price Books. Kind of short on period recipes, but the ones that are there are from good period sources with the original language recipe included(if you read period French.) Lots of good photos of prints and woodcuts from period. the first 200+ pages are devoted to a history of foods, cooking and dining. The book's period covers 1300 to 1789, so nearly half of the book is covering post-period stuff. I'm still reading it, so I can't really review the written portion yet. PS most of the recipes are from Viander, and so are available from other sources. > Any opinions on this book? Anyone seen it, or read it? Any good original > recipes? Any suggestions yea or nay about buying it? > > Savoring the Past; The French Kitchen and Table from 1300 to 1789, Scribner > ed. > > By Barbara Ketcham Wheaton > > Quality Paperback, ISBN: 0684818574 List Price: $16.00 OUR PRICE: $12.80 > Simon & Schuster Publication Date: 04/01/96 > > Books For Cooks, > theNeighborhood Cookbook Store on the Web > > Mordonna DuBois > Haven of Warriors > Barony of Atenveldt > Kingdom of Atenveldt Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 14:51:03 -0500 From: allilyn@juno.com (LYN M PARKINSON) Subject: Re: SC - Cookbook review? Mordonna, >>Any opinions on this book? Anyone seen it, or read it? Any good original recipes? Any suggestions yea or nay about buying it? Savoring the Past; The French Kitchen and Table from 1300 to 1789, Scribner ed. By Barbara Ketcham Wheaton<< I haven't tried her recipes, but she says: "Some adaptations have been necessary, but I have stayed as close to the originals as is possible for a cook in a modern American kitchen." She gives 10 period French recipes. Since my remaining modern French is sparse, I'll let Anne-Marie comment on Wheaton's faithfulness to the medieval/renaissance French originals. Most of the book is text, and includes the 17th and 18th centuries. I bought mine because of a good review in _Serve It Forth_, haven't gotten too far into it, and have thrown it at the wall several times. Get it via Interlibrary Loan, and decide if it's a 'keeper' for you. Allison allilyn@juno.com, Barony Marche of the Debatable Lands, Pittsburgh, PA Kingdom of Aethelmearc Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 06:28:59 -0400 From: Phil & Susan Troy Subject: Re: SC - Italian Ren Feast david friedman wrote: > You might want to look through the webbed Miscellany (and other sources) > for recipes from Platina, who is Italian, late 15th c. Two other sources > (very closely related to Platina) are Martino's cookbook, a little earlier > (there is no translation into English that I know of), and Epulario, which > is a c. 1600 English translation of an Italian cookbook, probably c. 1480. Another thing that might be worth considering is that Platina's De Honesta Voluptate et Valetudine was apparently written with Martino's work as its [partial] source document, which explains why the Vatican librarian had such an encyclopedic knowledge of cookery. The latest translation/edition of Platina that I've seen, one done by Mary Ella Millham, suggests that around 90% of Martino's work is virtually quoted by Platina. Now, I'm _not_ saying you shouldn't go out and get both. If you want to make a serious study of the subject you definitely should. But, if you are on a deadline of some kind, or a book budget, you might prioritize and get the Platina first, because it may be easier to lay hands upon. Adamantius Østgardr, East Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 09:47:17 -0800 From: david friedman Subject: Re: SC - Italian Ren Feast >The latest translation/edition of >Platina that I've seen, one done by Mary Ella Millham, suggests that around >90% of Martino's work is virtually quoted by Platina. I haven't seen the new translation. Comparing a few recipes in the old translation of Platina with Martino, my impression was that Martino gave substantial more detailed instructions. David/Cariadoc http://www.best.com/~ddfr/ Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 22:47:33 -0400 From: Phil & Susan Troy Subject: Re: SC - Italian Ren Feast david friedman wrote: > >The latest translation/edition of > >Platina that I've seen, one done by Mary Ella Millham, suggests that around > >90% of Martino's work is virtually quoted by Platina. > > I haven't seen the new translation. Comparing a few recipes in the old > translation of Platina with Martino, my impression was that Martino gave > substantial more detailed instructions. > > David/Cariadoc > http://www.best.com/~ddfr/ Could be. I was thinking of Millham's own claims, which I supply, probably erroneously, from memory: Platina repeatedly lauds Martino as the perfect model for all a cook should be, and speaks glowingly of his work, yet ~90% (some high percentage) of Martino's work is included in DHVEV, while the portion of Platina's work that is taken from Martino is ~50%, plus added medical info, suggesting that Platina's work is far more complete. Whether Martino has been trimmed down for inclusion in Platina's work I don't know; it may just be a count of titled recipes. Adamantius Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 09:26:09 -0500 From: mermayde@juno.com (Christine A Seelye-King) Subject: SC - Bible as a food Source I have a couple of books on biblical cooking. "The Good Book Cookbook - Recipies form Biblical Times" by Naomi Goodman, Robert Marcus, and Susan Woolhandler. c.1986 Their introduction says they took references of food from the bible, studied ancient Near Eastern literary legacy, together with an investigation of how more recent Middle Eastern culinary experts have prepared the smae foods our biblical ancestors ate. I have used it a few times, and found the recipies to be quite good. "Biblical Garden Cookery" by Eileen Gaden c.1976 Christian Herald Books She also has taken correlary writings from the times and compared them to food lists as well as Middle Eastern Cooking. I have used some of her pickle recipies, which came out quite good. Christianna Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 23:22:52 From: "Joyce A. Baldwin" Subject: Re: SC - Which books? Bonne wrote: > "A late period Renaissance feast will be offered, for in the mind >> >of the autocrat, it is always 1531." I've had offers of the loan >> of >books. With that quotation in mind, which books do I want to >> >borrow? I have a book in my possession called "Sallets, Humbles, and Shrewsbury Cakes: A Collection of Elizabethen Recipes Adapted for the Modern Kitchen by Ruth Anne Beebe with recipes redacted from four cookbooks published between 1596 & 1621. (those by Thos.Dawson, Gervase Markham, & John Murrell). I realize this is a bit late period for your feast. Also, while she does quote the original recipes before her redactions (thank goodness), she does not specify which source she obtained it from *sigh.* I haven't actually tried many of her redactions so some experimentation would be in order. Anyone on the list familiar with this book? Opinions? I got it second hand a good fifteen or so years ago. Jocetta In the Society for Creative Anachronism: Lady Jocetta Thrushleigh of Rowansgarth Exchequer, Canton of Buckston on Eno Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 23:05:14 -0500 From: Bonne Subject: Re: SC - A question for the group Betty Cook wrote: > There is also Elinor Fettiplace's Cookbook--commercially published, I think > originally early 17th c. Having had it out of the library for bus ride reading until yesterday, I'll put in: The bulk of it was written in one hand and dated 1604. By that year, Lady Fettiplace had been married and accumulating recipes a decade or more, and you could assume some had come from relatives and so date back a bit further. Some recipes duplicate what I see referenced from other books. Prince Bisket and A White Bisket, for instance. Blancmange and some custards, an unsweetened date/custard pie, which was very good, once we adjusted to it not being dessert as we eat it today. The bulk of the recipes are for preserves, jams and various sweets. Not a lot of meat dishes, though some sauces. Not a lot of vegetable dishes. Not a lot of soups. Some medical treatments. The book does not have every recipe from the manuscript, I don't beleive. (It's back at the library, so I can't double check what was said about that.) About a quarter of the book was added later in various inks and hands. These bits might be as new as the early 1800's. Trouble is, usually nothing in the text indicates which grouping a recipe comes from. I know of one noted in the introduction as being in the later hand, but that isn't mentioned when the recipes appears in the text. Neither does she say it is as part of the 1604 group in the text. But if you've skipped the introduction you'll go happily along thinking you are using a recipe that is most likely pre-1600, when you might not. How much that bothers you depends on you. Bonne Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 15:05:24 -0700 (MST) From: Mary Morman Subject: Re: SC - Book review On Thu, 12 Nov 1998, Helen wrote: > I just read Fabulous Feasts. Has anyone else read it? What do you > think? I think that it is in most ways just what it says, a study of the "fabulous" or unusual and exotic in renaissance cooking. It should not be taken as a study of "normal" feasting, cooking, or eating. The recipes in FF are just plain poorly done. This is not a book to use as a resource for actual cooking. However the pictures alone are probably worth the price of the book - if of course you can remember to look at the pictures and not read the text with too much enthusiasm. There is an excellent review of FF on the Serve It Forth! web site at: http://oldcolo.com/~memorman/sif_home.html It was done by Master Kay Delfleur and in addition to a chapter by chapter analysis of the book, it has some comments on his meeting with the author at a talk that she gave nearly 20 years ago. Elaina Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 10:59:56 -0500 From: renfrow@skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow) Subject: SC - Forme of Cury With the assistance of Greg Lindahl, I have posted the text of "The Forme of Cury", a 14th century English cookbook, to http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/foc/ This site is not yet linked to the Medieval & Renaissance Food Homepage, but should be soon. It's also not cleaned up yet - read on for details before visiting! NOTE: Go straight to the .jpg files. The Forme of Cury text begins in file FoC001.jpg and follows in numerical order to FoC203.jpg The Forme of Cury file consists of 203 scanned pages in .jpg format. These images are scanned at 300 dpi, and are about 300 to 450K each. IGNORE THE HTML FILES, they're gibberish. (I was trying to scan the files as text, & it didn't work out too well.) This is the 1785 copy edited by Samuel Pegge. The text includes all Pegge's notes and gloss, plus another manuscript cookbook entitled "Ancient Cookery." A few of the pages are missing a few characters of text along one margin. *The recipes begin with file FOC52, and go to FOC131. *FoC(AC)132 to FOC(AC)163 are the "Ancient Cookery" recipes. *If you are unable to access these and you desire a copy, please contact me. And before you all ask, I can make a *MAC-compatible* copy for you on a zip disc if you send me a new (unopened) Mac-formatted zip disc. The files are too big to email to you. My mailing address is: 7 El's Way, Sussex, NJ 07461 USA Please include an oversize self-addressed envelope. Cindy Renfrow/Sincgiefu (the technologically-challenged) renfrow@skylands.net Author & Publisher of "Take a Thousand Eggs or More, A Collection of 15th Century Recipes" and "A Sip Through Time, A Collection of Old Brewing Recipes" http://www.alcasoft.com/renfrow/ Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 22:51:40 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy Subject: Re: SC - Fw: [Mid] Cook book Philippa Alderton wrote: > Someone on the Middlebridge posted this question- anybody familiar with it? > > > "Seven Centuries of English Cooking: A > >Collection of Recipes by Maxime de la Falaise". The first chapter covers > >"the 14th to the 16th century", then other chapters cover the 17th, 18th > >and 19th centuries. Original sources are listed. Has anyone else seen this > >one? Is it good for using in the SCA? It is also sometimes sold as "The Seven Centuries Cookbook", and the author is sometimes named as Maxime McKendry (presumably the same person as Maxime de la Falaise). My edition is edited by Arabella Boxer. Yes, it does frequently list the primary source, but not always, if I remember correctly. It also sometimes gives the original recipe, and sometimes not. When it doesn't, it's sometimes hard to be immediately sure what ingredients and steps have been conceived or added by the author. So, she occasionally adds things like gratuitous beurre manie thickening to sauces that originally called for no thickener at all. I guess it's better than "Fabulous Feasts", at least as a recipe source. I haven't referred to my copy in years, but I wouldn't dispose of it, either. It has at least one recipe (Honey Saffron Quiches, a.k.a. doucettys or darioles) that was specifically requested by a fairly recent Eastern Crown for their Coronation feast. It's not the best book in the world, but then not everything can be written by P.G. Wodehouse, can it? Adamantius Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 04:29:06 -0600 From: allilyn@juno.com (LYN M PARKINSON) Subject: Re: SC - Fw: [Mid] Cook book >>> I just found a book, titled "Seven Centuries of English Cooking: A Collection of Recipes by Maxime de la Falaise".>> I have a zerox of the part that pertains to our era. It's rather generalist; contains some modern redactions of recipes from sources most of us have. I'd suggest putting the cost of it towards one of the books with the whole collection rather than one or two per source: 1000 Eggs, for the Two Fifteenth C.; Hiett's Curye on English, etc. It's brief enough to give to your Aunt Fanny when she wants to know what you are doing with those strange people. Allison allilyn@juno.com, Barony Marche of the Debatable Lands, Pittsburgh, PA Kingdom of Aethelmearc Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 13:19:08 EST From: Bronwynmgn@aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Fw: [Mid] Cook book phlip@bright.net writes: << I just found a book, titled "Seven Centuries of English Cooking: A >Collection of Recipes by Maxime de la Falaise". The first chapter covers >"the 14th to the 16th century", then other chapters cover the 17th, 18th >and 19th centuries. Original sources are listed. Has anyone else seen this >one? Is it good for using in the SCA? >> I have it. She does give the originals for most all recipes, but doesn't follow them terribly closely. For instance, in the "Yrchouns" recipe, she adds egg and breadcrumbs to the mixture, as well as a couple of other things, and interprets the coloring instructions to mean coloring the almond spines rather than the meatballs themselves. She also either doesn't know about or doesn't follow which vegetables were available in period, as she adds green beans to a 15th century recipe for pea soups. The original does have beans in it, but they couldn't have been green beans. So, it's a good source of the original recipes, and the redactions can be used as a basis for doing them properly ;-) Brangwayna Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 07:14:43 -0800 From: Anne-Marie Rousseau Subject: Re: SC - French recipes Hi all from Anne-Marie Jean asks us: >I am looking for Period French recipes. Does anyone have any >ideas were to start looking or some of your own? mmm! French food! my fave! :) For already reconstructed recipes, check out the following books: "Great Cooks and their Recipes" by C Ann Willan " THe Medieval Cookbook" by Maggie Black "Medieval Miscellany" by Cariadoc and Elizabeth "Savoring the Past" by Barbara Wheaton "Pleyn Delite" by Constance Hieatt "Early French Cookery" by Terance Scully For primary sources check out the following: Chiquart (translation by Scully) le Menagier (various translations available) Taillevent's viandier (translations available by Scully and Prescott) an Anglo-Norman collection (by Hieatt et al) le Viviendier (translation by Scully) La Varennes' French Cook (available on microfilm...VERY late, not medieval, but awfully fun stuff. dated 1651) have fun! French food is great fun to play with. And contrary to common opinion, they were eating really well long before that overrated de Medici chick came around... - --Anne-Marie, who really needs to get all her recipes onto a web page for questions just like this... Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 21:24:22 EST From: Acanthusbk@aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Period Scottish Source? >A Book of Historical Recipes by Sara Paston-Williams >The National Trust of Scotland, 1995 ISBN 0-7078-0240-7; >Posted by Paul Macgregor > >This book _is_ available from Amazon, BTW. I ordered a copy, but >there wasn't much information available about it. We will see, eh? > >Adamantius Sorry I'm piping up now, in the middle of this thread...the book you're speaking of, Sara Paston-Williams' _Book of Historical Recipes_, is a nice little book but not a source for period Scottish recipes. English, yes, Scots, no. Actually published by the English National Trust. The first known published Scottish cookbook was _Mrs. McLintock's Receipts_, 1736. Reprinted by Aberdeen Univ. Press in 1986 but now out of print. I'm not aware of any collections of pre-1650 Scottish recipes, but Olive Geddes _Laird's Kitchen_ contains a brief chapter on early 17th c. food preferences. You might want to look at F. Marian McNeill's _Scots Kitchen_, 1929, available in facsimile. McNeill cites sources for all recipes from 18th - 20th c. cookbooks, earlier than this are identified as "old cottage recipe" or "traditional". She gives very few "modern". Lots of good background info. Amanda Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:26:57 -0500 From: "Daniel Phelps" Subject: Re: SC - old world/new world foods You might try "The Sensible Cook, Dutch Foodways in the Old and the New World" translated and edited by Peter G. Rose 1989 ISBN 0-8156-0241-3" The original "The Sensible Cook or Careful Housekeeper" was published in 1667 but apparently contains recipes from "Eenen Seer Schonen ende Excellenten Coc-boeck" by Carolus Battus which was published in 1589. Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:57:26 EST From: THLRenata@aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Vegetable Warners Suzanne mourns: << I WISH I had a copy of "To the Queen's Taste! >> I have a copy on extended loan (along with "To the Kings Taste") and I have to admit I'm not all that impressed. I suspect that their fame is due to their rarity (to quote the owner of the copies I have "They are sooooo out of print") rather that their content. Still, the recipes I've made have been tasty, if not 100% authentically redacted. Renata Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 23:41:25 -0500 From: Philip & Susan Troy Subject: Re: SC - Vegetable Warners THLRenata@aol.com wrote: > Suzanne mourns: > << I WISH I had a copy of "To the Queen's Taste! >> > > I have a copy on extended loan (along with "To the Kings Taste") and I have to > admit I'm not all that impressed. I suspect that their fame is due to their > rarity (to quote the owner of the copies I have "They are sooooo out of > print") rather that their content. Still, the recipes I've made have been > tasty, if not 100% authentically redacted. > > Renata Okay, it's time for another SCA-cooks' bedtime story: Once upon a time, there were perhaps five sources available for the average SCAdian who was either not adept or simply not confident enough to deal with primary source recipes. In no particular order, they were (and someone else may have a different vision of what the five, or the seven, or whatever, were): "Fabulous Feasts" by Madeline Pellner Cosman, "Seven Hundred Years of English Cooking", a.k.a. "The Seven Centuries Cookbook", by Maxime McKendry, a.k.a. Maxime de la Falaise, "To the King's Taste", and "To the Queen's Taste", both by Lorna J. Sass, and "The Delectable Past" by Esther B. Aresty. The first is pretty bad as a recipe source, replete with red licorice whip garnishes and frumenty made from Grape Nuts cereal. The others have some bright spots, but are flawed to varying extents, more or less in the same way, in that they don't _really_ teach us all that much about medieval cookery, because they either don't give the original source recipe, or else they don't follow it with any logic or any desire to do a medieval thing the way it was done in the Middle Ages. This isn't so bad when you consider they were never really intended as cookbooks for serious historical recreationists to work from, but more as curiosities for lightweight historical hobbyists and people whose entertaining tended toward the unusual. I guess the question is of the degree of immersion, if you know what I mean. Anyway, you've all probably heard this from me before, but once upon a time books like "To The Queen's Taste" were, for the non-scholarly, the inexperienced, or the underconfident, considered the only game in town. Now all of the above have been eclipsed by newer secondary sources with better educational ethics, but it isn't always good to forget one's roots so easily. What's the line in the movie version of "Jurassic Park"? "The point is, you are alive when they begin to eat you. So show a little respect, okay?" ; ) Adamantius Østgardr, East Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 03:10:54 -0800 From: Heather Law Subject: SC - Sallets, Humbles, and Shrewsbury Cakes Amazon has just sent me this information about this out of print cookbook. Frankly, it's too rich for my blood! If someone wants it, please go ahead and contact them Ordered item: Ruth Anne Beebe "Sallets, Humbles and Shrewsbery Cakes : A Collection of Elizabethan Recipes" Title located:"Sallets, Humbles & Shrewsbery Cakes - a Collection of Elizabethan Recipes Adapted for the Modern Kitchen." Price: $83.99 Shipping & handling charge: $3.95 Total charge for item: $87.94 Binding: Hardcover Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 01:02:55 -0800 From: "James L. Matterer" Subject: Re: SC - XIVth Century French Sources Chiquart's 'On Cookery' A Fifteenth-Century Savoyard Culinary Treatise. New York: Peter Lang Publishing, 1986. By Terence Scully. I think this book may be out of print, but it's probably still possible to find a copy somehow. As most of Scully's work, it's an interesting and well written book, with some unusual recipes and much useful knowlege. And very 14th c. French! Master Huen Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:16:59 -0500 From: renfrow@skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow) Subject: Re: SC - XIVth Century French Sources >Chiquart's 'On Cookery' A Fifteenth-Century Savoyard Culinary Treatise. >New York: Peter Lang Publishing, 1986. By Terence Scully. > >I think this book may be out of print, but it's probably still possible >to find a copy somehow. As most of Scully's work, it's an interesting >and well written book, with some unusual recipes and much useful >knowlege. And very 14th c. French! > >Master Huen See also http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Medieval/Cookbooks/Du_Fait_de_Cuisine/du_fait_de_c_con tents.html Cindy Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:58:36 -0800 From: david friedman Subject: Re: SC - XIVth Century French Sources At 1:02 AM -0800 1/27/99, James L. Matterer wrote: >Chiquart's 'On Cookery' A Fifteenth-Century Savoyard Culinary Treatise. >New York: Peter Lang Publishing, 1986. By Terence Scully. > >I think this book may be out of print, but it's probably still possible >to find a copy somehow. As most of Scully's work, it's an interesting >and well written book, with some unusual recipes and much useful >knowlege. And very 14th c. French! Actually it's 15th century French. And, while Scully's translation may be out of print, my lady wife's translation is on my web page--and included in volume II of my collection of source material. David/Cariadoc http://www.best.com/~ddfr/ Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:40:11 -0800 From: david friedman Subject: Re: SC - XIVth Century French Sources At 4:02 PM -0600 1/26/99, Brian Songy wrote: >Beyond: > * Le Viander de Taillevent >and > * Le Menagier de Paris >What other documents, if any, would serve as good sources, both >primary and secondary, for 14th century French cooking? There's Traité de Cuisine (c. 1300). I include it in volume II of my collection. I don't know Viandier very well, so am not sure if it is one of the things that went into that. David Friedman Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:26:49 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: SC - Koge Bog (was: Nerve Bisquits???) > I have one dated 1616 that I believe is Danish...called "Koge Bog". since > I dont READ danish, I havent done anything with it other than nab it and > xerox it! > > --AM, who is amazed that she has a cookbook Cariadoc doesnt have! :) "Cook Book" was printed in Copenhagen in 1616. I believe the Horsens Museum in Horsens, Denmark, has a modern reprint they sell. The Horsens Middle Ages Festival has a few fun pictures also. You can check this out at: http://www.horsensmuseum.dk/iindex.htm#index My Dansk is almost good enough to understand one word in ten. Bear Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 13:36:49 -0800 From: "James L. Matterer" Subject: Re: SC - Goodman of Paris, etc. david friedman wrote: > There is a modern, > very partial, translation under a different name ("A Medieval Home > Companion" or something vaguely similar). "A Medieval Home Companion: Housekeeping in the 14th Century" by Tania Bayard, copyright 1991, HarperCollins Publishers. Huen Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 13:37:31 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - "In a Caliph's Kitchen" > I'm very sorry to tell you that not only is "In a Caliph's Kitchen" out-of- > print, but also that the publisher has gone out of business. I was > importing the books through my British agent, which is how I know this. > > I have heard that Prospect Books is working on a new book of historic > Arabic cooking, but have no idea when it might be available. > > Devra the Baker > Poison Pen Press Prospect Books will be bringing out Medieval Arab Cookery by Maxime Rodinson and Charles Perry. The volume will contain a reprint of A Baghdad cookery Book by Prof. A.J. Arberry. According to foodbooks.com, it's not on the market yet, but they are taking advance orders. Bear Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 10:54:54 -0500 From: "Nick Sasso" Subject: PAge finishing (was RE: SC - Initial impressions of A Drizzle of Honey) Just Got my copy of The Medieval Kitchen, too. I am very pleased that the origianl text is included in an appendix, by the same order as the translated recipes. The list of sources is also user friendly by my assessment. The sources are listed with the recipes lifted therefrom, given a code of sorts (MP for Le Menagier, etc.), and the code used in the main text body as reference. Seems very easy to use, and I have not yet evaluated for accuracy the recipes they chose to use. The French Toast from 15th Century Italian source looks awfully tempting!! niccolo difrancesco Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 15:10:37 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy Subject: Re: SC - Pennsic Cookery Class Suggestions: Long Terri Millette wrote: > > Elizabeth translated Du Fait de Cuisine and would be willing to participate > > in a panel. If we could just drag Janet Hinson to Pennsic ... . And > > Charles Perry. > > Pardon my ignorence, but who are these 2 people? Both are culinary historians, editors, and translators of various period source books. Hinson is known for an excellent translation of Le Menagier de Paris, and Charles Perry for a wide variety of stuff, largely Arabic texts. Adamantius Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 21:28:40 EDT From: Mordonna22@aol.com Subject: SC - New? Book Just got a new book. Don't know much about it. It's called "The Horizon Cookbook". It's a two volume set. One is sub-titled "Illustrated History" the other is "Menus and Feasts". Copyright 1968 by American Heritage Publishing Company, it purports to be an "Illustrated History of Eating and Drinking Through the Ages." There is an extensive list of picture credits, and a bibliography, but no footnotes, so their sources may not be 100% reliable, but there is some interesting reading here. One of the sources listed is the Flower and Rosenbaum translation of De Re Cocinaria, and there is no mention of the Vehling. So far I have read perhaps a third of the first volume with mixed opinions. There is a lot of Euro-centric pseudo-anthropology in it, not surprising considering the decade it was published in, but it is surprisingly even handed in its treatment of the Middle Ages. I'll let you all know my opinion after I've read it and tested some of the recipes. Mordonna Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 16:27:23 +0100 From: Christina Nevin Subject: SC - A Newe Proper Booke of Cokery Some Good gentle refered to: << an English source is in ~1545, in "A Newe Proper Booke of Cokery", >> Is there a reprint and/or redaction of this publication out on the market? If so, what is the name, Author and ISBN if known? Your help is gratefully appreciated. Yours, Rosalyn MacGregor I have a copy of this which is printed by a Civil War outfit here in the UK for about GBP 4.50. It's a 24 page booklet. If there is no similar publication in the US, I can look up their address details and send them to you to follow through, or if you want, I can arrange with you off-list to do it for you. The recipes for pastry in it are supposedly the first detailed ones printed in an English cookbook. It also has a lot of tart and pie filling recipes (as well as very interesting menus). Al Vostro e al Servizio del Sogno Lucretzia ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Lady Lucrezia-Isabella di Freccia | mka Tina Nevin Thamesreach Shire, The Isles, Drachenwald | London, UK Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 17:41:03 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy Subject: SC - [Fwd: 17th century cookbook URL] I thought the various Elizabethan/Jacobean wonks...ahem...enthusiasts...would be interested in this. My browser didn't like the URL I was sent, but if you trim all the mysterious code off the end, you can probably go to http://www.stg.brown.edu:1084/dynaweb/wwptextbase/wwpCorpus/ and get a page full of the dreaded frames. From there you can link to Hannah Wooley's 1664 "The Cook's Guide", not to mention a buncha other cool stuff. - -------- Original Message -------- Subject: 17th century cookbook URL Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 16:39:18 -0400 To: Philip & Susan Troy I just saw an announcement on the Rialto concerning the Women Writers' Project at Brown, which has on-line texts of early women writers. Don't know if you'd heard about this yet, so I thought I'd just drop you a note. There's a 17th century cookbook, "The Cook's Guide," on-line in this project. http://www.stg.brown.edu:1084/dynaweb/wwptextbase/wwpCorpus/@Generic__BookTe xtView/196644;hf=0 A recipe for haggis! ;> Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 10:28:09 PDT From: "Bonne of Traquair" Subject: Re: SC - A midsummer nights feast(OOP- slightly) > The brief for the meal is to go for 'best of british' with a >traditional/historical slant to it ( many of the attendees are re-enactors >etc) but it is not required to be strictly period. Hunt up a book named "English Provincial Cooking". I don't have my references and so cannot give you the author or ISBN. e-mail me if you need me to hunt it up for you. The book is quite a collection of "traditional" recipes, with a bibliography that includes all the manuscripts and diaries I so often see referenced here and some others which I've been meaning to ask the list if they know anything about. Unfortunately, for any particular recipe, she does not list her particular sources. She'll just say something like "14th century manuscript" or "recipt book from 1799" and that sort of thing. Bonne Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 16:31:50 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy Subject: Re: SC - re: quick info needed kat wrote: > Can someone email me privately (I get the digest) and let me know the name > of the cook and the source where we were told no one bothers writing down > recipes for vegetables (or something to that effect)? > > - kat "154. Other Lesser Pottages, such as stewed chard, cabbage, turnip greens, leeks, veal in Yellow sauce, and plain shallot pottage, peas, frenched beans, mashed beans, sieved beans, or beans in their shell, pork offal, brewet of pork tripe -- women are experts with these and anyone knows how to do them; as for tripe, which I have not put in my recipe book, it is common knowledge how it is to be eaten." Viandier de Taillevent, ~1379 C.E., trans. Terence Scully Adamantius Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 14:50:42 -0700 From: lilinah@grin.net Subject: Re: SC - A midsummer nights feast(OOP- slightly) Bonne suggested: >Hunt up a book named "English Provincial Cooking". I don't have my >references and so cannot give you the author or ISBN. Got this through a cookbook club a while back: English Provincial Cooking by Elisabeth Ayrton 1980 Harper and Row 0-06-010157-1 Has pleasantly chatty intros and info on recipes organized by local regions, and a number of "vintage" recipes, as she often puts it, from old farms and estates. Some are said to be from within SCA period, and she even on rare occasions gives the original recipe. Anahita Gaouri bint-Karim al-Fassi not normally given to eating English food Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 00:39:20 -0400 From: Ann & Les Shelton Subject: SC - New Scully Book I was doing some research tonight and discovered that Terence Scully has a new book soon to be released entitled "The Neopolitan Recipe Collection: Cuoco Napoletano." It will cover 220 recipes by an annonymous late 15th c. master cook in Naples. It will be published by the University of Michigan Press, approx. 264 pages, tentatively priced @ $42.50. A complete description is available at: http://www.press.umich.edu/titles/10972.html John le Burguillun Nottinghill Coill Atlantia Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 15:06:33 -0400 From: Christine A Seelye-King Subject: SC - Tuesday afternoon ramblings... I turned up a nice copy of "Jeff Smith Cooks American", which I thought would be a good starter for a young, Christian country girl (all I know about her) and a small volume called "A Proper Breakfast" by Alexandra Parsons and Evie Safarewicz. It is a delightful book exploring the 'proper' breakfast of cuisines all around the world. It starts off with a discussion of different beverages, (tea, coffee, chocolate) their history and how to make them properly.... Anyway, in the section about 'Breakfast in the Mountains" discusses hearty Alpine faire, and starts off with a recipe for *rosti*, a fried potato pancake. Then, they drop a tidbit that really caught my attention. It says "It was in Switzerland that the first cookbook written by a woman was published in 1598. It contained the first known recipe for rosti and today you will find it on most breakfast menus, ..." ! So, have I missed something? Are we aware of this source, and I've just missed it? I wish they said who the author was, they are pretty good about quoting the sources for their numerous quotes throughout the book. Christianna Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 15:46:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Gretchen M Beck Subject: Re: SC - Tuesday afternoon ramblings... Did a search on Worldcat, and found this: Wecker, Anna d 1596-7, Ein Ko:stlich new Kochbuch von allerhand Speisen, an Gemu:sen, Obs, Fleisch, Geflu:gel, Wildpret, Fischen und Gebachens: mit allein vor Gesunde, sondern auch und fu:rnemlich vor Krancken allerley Kranckheiten und Gebrasten auch schwangere Weiber - Kind - betterinnen, unnd alte schwache Leute, fu:fstlich und nu:zlich zuzurichten unnd zugebrauchen, dergleichen vormals nie in Truck aussgangen. Place: Ambert, Bey Michaeln Forstern, publisher, Year 1598. Alternate Title Weckerin Kochbuch This looks like an original manuscript copy. It says that the Library of Congress has a non-lending copy. toodles, margaret. Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 16:47:53 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - Tuesday afternoon ramblings... > Anyway, in > the section about 'Breakfast in the Mountains" discusses hearty Alpine > faire, and starts off with a recipe for *rosti*, a fried potato pancake. > Then, they drop a tidbit that really caught my attention. It says "It > was in Switzerland that the first cookbook written by a woman was > published in 1598. It contained the first known recipe for rosti and > today you will find it on most breakfast menus, ..." ! > So, have I missed something? Are we aware of this source, and I've > just missed it? I wish they said who the author was, they are pretty good > about quoting the sources for their numerous quotes throughout the book. > Christianna Anna Weckerin. There is a translation by Regina and John Bendix, but I don't think it has been published yet. There is a copy of the cookbook in the Aresty Collection of the Van Pelt Library at the University of Pennsylvania. Bear Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 06:31:17 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy Subject: Re: SC - Book opinions Bonne wrote: > Cooking with the Ancients : Bible Food Book ~ Arlene Stadd / Glenbridge Pub > Ltd / March 1997 As I recall this one is based on the _kinds_ of foods found in the Bible: the recipes themselves, as far as I can tell, are fairly modern. Most of them, anyway. Adamantius Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 06:53:26 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - Book opinions > The Food Chronology : A Food Lover's Compendium of Events and > > Anecdotes, from Prehistory to the Present ~ James Trager / Henry > Holt (Paper) / June 1997 Timeline. Useful for establishing a general progression of events. Broad but shallow. There are inaccuracies and misstatements. No bibliography, very limited source references. Trager tends to be sloppy about scholarship. > Six Thousand Years of Bread : Its Holy and Unholy History (The Cook's Classic > Library) ~ Heinrich Eduard Jacob, Lynn Alley / The Lyons Press / September > 1997 If you are into the history of bread, this is a good book. No recipes. > All Manners of Food : Eating and Taste in England and France from the Middle > Ages to the Present ~ Stephen Mennell / Univ of Illinois Pr (Trd) / > November 1995 A general history. Limited coverage of SCA period. IIRC, this is where I came across the quote which equated Piers collops to steak. No recipes. > A Taste of Ancient Rome ~ Ilaria Gozzini Giacosa, Anna Herklotz > (Translator) / Univ of Chicago Pr (Trd) / March 1994 Interesting read. Good recipes giving original, translation and redaction. Recipes are from a number of sources including Apicius. Bear Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 14:22:27 -0400 From: Melanie Wilson Subject: SC - Books >Six Thousand Years of Bread : Its Holy and Unholy History (The Cook's Classic Library) ~ Heinrich Eduard Jacob, Lynn Alley / The Lyons Press / September 1997 Very bread orientated but pretty unique >Food in Antiquity : A Survey of the Diet of Early Peoples ~ Patricia Brothwell(Contributor), Don R. Brothwell / Johns Hopkins Univ Pr / January 1998 Reputed to be good >Food and Feast in Medieval England ~ P. W. Hammond, Alison Sim / Sutton Publishing / October 1997 No Recipes, but good info on the background to cooking, methods, aquiring food etc. Mel Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 12:06:01 +0100 From: "Oughton, Karin (GEIS, Tirlan)" Subject: RE: SC - Book opinions > Food and Feast in Medieval England ~ P. W. Hammond, Alison Sim / Sutton > Publishing / October 1997 I found this good for general information about culinery matters - it gave more of a overall feel of how the diet was structured through the classes , rather than specific recipes and dishes. It also concentrated very heavily on documented sources of food to create this diet categorisation, which while it is accurate in the sense that it is PROVABLE , gave me a slightly uneasy feeling because of the fact that it ignored food that is freely available in nature. Having just made nettle soup, dosed my cold with elderflower cold, had plantain salad for lunch and with pots of elderflower sorbet in the freezer, I wonder how important 'gathered' or 'kitchen garden' food woould have been medievally and hence how much the book ignores by concentrating on the documented facts only. I guess the best description to me is as an 'absorbtion book' - quality data which woolgathers in your brain, slushes around with other data, and eventually forms together to give a fairly balanced picture. Needs to be read in context with other stuff though. I've been reading Lady Margaret Hobys diary , ( Elizabethan period ) and the Paston Letters (1400??) and in the few hints she gives about her activities , I think the surrounding countrysides harvest was very important in that period. Karin Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 16:35:15 SAST-2 From: "Jessica Tiffin" Subject: Re: SC - Book opinions Bonne asked about: Food and Feast in Medieval England ~ P. W. Hammond, Alison Sim / Sutton Publishing / October 1997 A kind friend just gave this to me for my birthday. It has hordes of the most _wonderful_ pictures - reproductions of medieval originals, not only people feasting, but utensils, both cooking and eating, kitchens, cooks at work, merchants selling food, etc, . I haven't had time to look through the text more than briefly, but it seems to be geared more to a general cultural overview than to specific recipes. Lovely chapters on food sources, what was grown, etc, and on feasts, upper and lower class eating habits, etc. Melisant de Huguenin Seneschal, Shire of Adamastor, Cape Town (Jessica Tiffin, University of Cape Town) Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 13:20:02 -0400 From: "Micaylah" Subject: Re: SC - Book opinions [This is in referance to: Food and Feast in Medieval England ~ P. W. Hammond, Alison Sim / Sutton Publishing / October 1997 - editor] Melisant it is indeed worth the read. One rainy afternoon I picked it up just to leaf through it and ended up reading it from cover to cover, having a really hard time putting it down. The book actually had several surprises (like a banana in a garbage dump does) and I learned alot from it. It is not very cerebral and is an easy read. I am now tackling All Manners of Food and because of my CFS I am finding it a little more challenging....not a book to just whip through but worth it nonetheless. Micaylah Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 15:46:31 -0000 From: Dottie Elliott Subject: Re: SC - Book opinions >A Taste of Ancient Rome ~ Ilaria Gozzini Giacosa, Anna Herklotz (Translator) / >Univ of Chicago Pr (Trd) / March 1994 I like this book. Although not a complete version of Apicius, he gives the originals and his redactions taste good. >Food and Feast in Medieval England ~ P. W. Hammond, Alison Sim / Sutton >Publishing / October 1997 A good book for general information. I want something more in-depth than I have seen so far but this book has lots of info. Clarissa Date: Tue, 06 Jul 1999 23:44:30 +0200 From: "ana l. valdes" Subject: SC - primary sources I come across two really wonderful books and I wonder if someone of the list know them and can tell me if they are as good as I think they are. One of them its written by Michele Savonarola, the italian humanist and doctor and the title is "Libreto de tutte le cosse che si magnano; un`opera di dietetica del sec XV". Its edited by the university in Stockholm and curated and edited by a scholar named Jane Nystedt. He was the oncle of Girolamo Savonarola, the famous priest. This work is a complete treaty about vegetables, meat and fishes and I found this book really fascinating. The other one is a Spanish manuscript from 1593, written by Rodrigo de Zayas, and discovered by a bookseller in London 1938. I have the French version, "Mes Secrets à Florence au temps des Médicis 1593", annotated by Stefano Francesco di Romolo Rosselli. Are they good enough to be trusted as "primary sources"? Mylord Ras, lord Stefan, messire Adamantius, messire Cariadoc, are these books "reliable"? (I am going to use some of their recipes about cooking methods of that time, thats I need their "validation". Yours in Seeking the Truth Ana L. Valdés Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 12:58:36 -0500 (CDT) From: alysk@ix.netcom.com (Elise Fleming) Subject: SC - Old Cookery Texts: Bancroft Library (Long) While in San Francisco, I found this book in a used book store. Some of the books listed below are ³old friends², having been put into the popular press, so to speak. But others were works I had never heard of. In general, I have only copied the information on books within the SCA period, but I did include #1 because of our relatively recent discussion of cat as food. Because of the limitations of my computer, I have not included the umlaut on German words, but would be glad to inform anyone where they are. Also, if anyone is interested, I would be glad to list the full name of the references that are only given by abbreviations. Questions: Do libraries such as the Bancroft copy these materials for dissemination? Do they web any of them? Alys Katharine ******** _One Hundred Sixteen Uncommon Books on Food & Drink_, From the Distinguished Collection on Gastronomy of Marcus Crahan, published at Berkeley by The Friends of The Bancroft Library, 1975. 1. Altamiras, Juan. Nuevo arte de Cocina, Sacado de la Escuela de la Experiencia Economica, Madrid, Joseph Garcia Lanza, 1756. No copy cited by any gastronomic bibliographer. ³The author stresses great cleanliness on the part of the cook, and writes that giving stew meat is cheating the master, like serving cat instead of hare.² 4. Apicius. Appicius Culinarius. Mediolani, Guilermus le Signerre, 1498... 5. Argote de Molina. Gonzalo (1549-1596?). Libro, de la Monteria, que Mando Escrivir el Muiy Alto y Muy Poderoso Ray Don Alonso de Castilla, y de Leon, Vltimo Desde Nombre. Acrecentado por Gonzalo Argote de Molina. Sevilla, Andrea Pescioni, 1532. (Small folio, 6, 25 (i.e. 23) (1), 91 f., much misnumbered. Ex Libris William Stirling-Maxwell; Thomas W. Streeter copy. ³There are thirty-seven plates (some used more than once). Many hunting sports are included, such as lion and tiger hunting, ostrich huntin in Peru, pig-sticking and bullfighting in the ampitheater. Schewerd, page 44 and plate 97, describes this book about hunting as Œthe earliest Spanish treatise on the subject,¹ and the edition as the first recorded. He agrees with Gutierrez de la Vega (Bibioteca Venatoria) in attributing the work to King Alfonso XI.² 6. Arnaldus de Villanova (d. 1313?). Hie nach Volget ein Loblich Tractat eins Furneemen Doctors der Ertzney mitt namen Arnoldi de Nova Villa der ein Kunigs vo Frankrich Gewesen ist. Diser Tractat Haltet inn von Bereitung vn Bruchung der Wein zu Gesuntheit der Menschen. Wellisches Buchlin der Wilham vo Hirnkofen...von Latin zu Teutsch Transferiet...Strassburg, Martin Schott, 1484. (Small folio, (11) f., lacks initial blank, bound in new limp vellum. Hain 1809; GKW 9 copies only; BMC I: no copy in America; Goff A-1082, College of Physicians of Philadelphia. Ex Libris Harry Schraemli. ³The subjects treated include wine making and the therapeutic use of wine.² 8. Athenaeus, of Naucratis (fl. Third Century). Athenaevs (Deipnosophistou. Libri XV. ³Banquet des Savants.²) (In Greek characters) (Venetiis, Apvd Aldum, et Andream Socervm, 1514). Large folio, 38, (2), 294 (2)p., contemporary vellum binding enclosed in a chamois lined chemise, itself encased in a half Niger, chamois lined folding case. Panzer VIII, 421, no. 689; Renouard, 1834, p. 67-68. Proctor 12837. ³The Marcus Musurus version from the parchement manuscript (A), brought by Aurispa from Constantinople in 1423. That manuscript is now lost. The book is a symposium held by 21 artists, writers, musicians and surgeons, disculling all things which, according to Greek custom, shoule adorn a banquet. The names of the most famous gastronomists and of the most celebrated cooks are recorded. The virtues and qualities of wines are the subjects of long discourses. Table ornament and decoration are also treated.² 9. Augustinus, Aurelius, Saint, Bishop of Hippo (354-430). Incipit Liber Sancti Augustini de Anima et Spiritv...De Ebrietate...De Vanitate Saeculi...De Vita Christiana...Ad Virgines de Ebrietate et de Sobrietate... (Lauingen, Typographus Augustini de Consensu Evangelistarum, 1472). 4*, (148) p., vellum binding, in a red Niger solander case by Marcus Crahan. Goff A-1224, 8 copies, this being the eighth. The BM and Huntington copies are defective. ³The first of two books by an unknown printer in Bavaria, the second consisting of two leaves. The two tracts on sobriety and drunkenness are interesting for the study of ancient medicine. The designation of the author as Augustine of Hippo is generally questioned.² 10. Averroes (1126-1198). Collectaneorvm de re Medica...Sectiones tres. I. De Sanitatis Functionibus, et Aristot. & Galeno. II. De Sanitate Tuenda, ex Galeno. III. De Curandis Morbis. Lugdvni, Seb. Gryphivm, 1537. 4*, (72) f. vellum binding. Wellcome I. 568 (lacks last leaf), not in Osler, Cushing or Waller. ³The first edition of three medical treatises by the great medieval philosopher, the last of the great Arab physicians. The translator and editor of the present volume, Jean Baptiste Bruyerin, a nephey of Symphorien Champier, was physician to Henri II of France.² 11. Bacci, Andrea (d. 1600). De Natvrali Vinorvm Historia. De Vinis Italiae, et de Conuiuijs Antiquorum. Libri Septem... Romae, Nicholai Mutis, 1596. Folio, (26), 370, (1) p., vellum binding. ³This is the very rare first issue unknown to all bibliographers excepting De Bure (Bibliotheque Instructive). The author was physician to Pope Sixtus V, and Professor of Medicine at Rome. 15. Bavaria. Bairische Lanndtsordnung. 1553. Ingolstadt (A. Weissenhorn) 1553. Folio, 197 f., (39) p., 19th century boards. STC-German 71; SBG 164, who notes ³how to deal with the habitual drunkard.² ³The engraved title depicts Albrecht V of Bavaria surrounded by courtiers. There are woodcut crests to each subheading, six double page woodcuts of fish representing the legal size of various fish that may be caught, handsome initial letters, text in red and black throughout, and a two page holographic extract at the end in an early hand. This constitutes an all-encompassing list of regulations for beer, brandy, woodmen, hunters, fishermen and all craftsmen, with a register for each part. It is the masterwork of the Weissenhorn Office.² 17. Belon, Pierre (1517?-1564). La Nature and Diuersite¹ des Poissons, auec leurs Pourtraicts, Representez au Plus Pres du Naturel... Paris, Charles Estienne, 1555. Oblong 8*, (37) 448 p., vellum binding. Ex Libris William Beebe. ³This is the first French edition of a work first published in Latin, in Paris, two years earlier. Belon is looked upon as the founder of modern ichthyology, and as one of the first workers in the science of comparative anatomy. The work contains 189 woodcuts.² 18. Berners, Juliana, Dame (b. 1338?) supposed author. A Treatyse of Fysshynge wyth an Angle by Dame Juliana Berners: Being a Facsimile Reproduction of the first book on the Subject of Fishing Printed in England by Wynkyn de Worde at Westminster in 1496. With an Introductory by Rev. M. G. Watkins, M.A. London, Elliot Stock, 1880. Folio, xiv p., facsimile (23) p., printed on vellum, bound in dark green levant morocco, with blind tooling in the panels, floral and other tools, on sides, t.e.g. Bookplate of the Earl of Derby; from Knowsley Hall. ³There is said to be only one copy on record of the original of this book, whose contents were freely sampled by Walton, Burton and others who followed the authoress¹ philosophy of the gentility of the angler, and of the moral as well as the physical benefits of fishing.² 24. Brunschwyg, Hieronymus (ca. 1450-ca. 1512). Medicinarius. Das Buch der Gesundheit. Liber de Arte Distillandi Simplicia et Composita. Das nuv Buch d¹Rechte Kunst zu Distilliere. Ouch vo Marsilio Ficino vn anderer Hochberopmter (sic) Artzee naturlich vn gute Kunste zu behalte den gesunde Leib vnd zu Vertryben die Kranckheit mit Erlengerug des Lebens...(Strassburg, Johanne Grueninger, 1505). Large 8*, 130 f., blind stamped vellum over oaken boards. ³The text of this first edition is rubricated throughout, and there are some decorated letters. There are 256 plates of stills, herbs, and other plants and objects, many hand colored. Bound in before the text are four leaves in manuscript; at the end there are 94 manuscript folios, dated 1604, with 6 folios following, in another hand. (The text, in medieval German, has not been translated, but it has been suggested that this manuscript may be more valuable than the book itself.) Inserted loosely is a 10 page index of plant names for Brunschwyg¹s Liber de Arte Destillande (1500), in recent script.² 25. Bussato, Marco. Giardino di Agricoltvra di Marco Bvssato da Ravenna...Venice, Appresso Giouanni Fiorina, 1592. 4*, (8) p., 53 f., (3) p., bound in half vellum, marbled sides. Brunet I, 1419; SBB II, 117 cites the third edition of 1599; L 76 cites the edition of Venice, 1612. Not in B, Ma., Schr. or Westb. ³This first edition has 20 large woodcuts, engraved chapter headings and initial letters, and a calendar of months, each with an engraved scene appropriate to the seasons. A beautiful book of vines and fruit trees, and evidently quite rare.² 26. Butler, Charles (1560-1647). The Feminine Monarchie: or the Historie of Bees....London, Iohn Haviland for Roger Iackson, 1623. 4*, (190) p., 3/4 morocco, marbled sides, top edges gilt. STC 4193, two copies only, Library of Congress and Harvard. None in England, more rare than the first edition of 1609. Ex Libris Sir John Stainer, with a note in his hand. ³The frontispiece bee-hive is not unlike Christopher Wren¹s transparent hive. There are twelve text figures, a sound review of the history and management of bees, with recipes of waxes, salves, mead, metheglin and hyssop, but most important is ŒThe Madrigal of the Bees,¹ set to triple-time music on four pages to be read from above and below. This second edition is the first printing to show the musical scores. With the third edition the author, who was a philogist, adopted phonetic spelling.² 28. Castellano, Petro. Preophagi¹a (In Greek characters) Sive de Esv Carnium, Libri IV....Antverpiae, Hieronymi Verdvssii, 1626. 8*, (8), 296 p., contemporary vellum binding. V 153. Not in B, Ma., Pen. or SBG. ³The first edition of a curious learned work on the history of all animals and birds that have served man for food.² 35. Colerl, Johann (d. 1639). Calendarium Perpetuum, et Libri Oeconomici:...unnd netige Hausbucher, vor die Hauswirt/ Acker leut/ Apotecker/ Kauffleute/ Wandersleute/ Weinhern/ Garnter/ den gemeinin Handwercksleuten/ unnd all den jenigen/... Wittenberg, Paul Helwig, 1592-1600. 4*, (92) f., (4) f., 207 p., (156) f., (118)f., original blind and gold stamped panelled calf, with two brass clasps intact, over wooden boards, arms stamped into both covers, I.H.A.S. (achsen?) Graesse II 213 who has not seen the book. Otherwise completely unrecorded. ³Each title is in red and black, each has large vignette arming scene in two colors, and the calendars are also in two colors. Each text page is bordered in type ornaments with woodcut initials and tail-pieces. A woodcut shows the lunar cycle. The second part is said to be the first work on household and farm management. Part three discusses the vine, fruits, vegetablels and cookery. Part four treats of agriculture. The first edition.² 41. Corti, Matteo (1475-1542). Matthaei Cvrtii Papiensis de Prandii ac Caenae Modo Libellus. Romae, Apud Paulum Manutium, Aldi F., 1562. 4*, (4) p., (1) f., 90 p., full green morocco, blind and gilt stamped, with the Aldine Device deeply stamped into both covers, inner dentelles, bound by R. Storr of Grantham. Gr II 310; STC Italian 207; V 240; B 111 (1566 only). Ex Libris Syston Park Library; Ex Libris Sir John Hayford Thorold; Ex Libris Henry J. B. Clements. ³This is the first edition of this work on dietitics, published posthumously by the author¹s son Raphael Corti, and dedicated to Carl Borromeo, Pope Pius IV. The author was physician to Pope Clement VII, and to Cosimo I, Grand Duke of Tuscany. The title and last leaf have a red, blue and gold Cardinals Arms. The first edition is rare: the National Library of Medicine has only the second, octavo edition (Rome, 1566).² 42. Crescenzi, Pietro de (1230?-1320?). Ruralium Commodorum. (Augsburg) Iohanne Schussler, ³Circit² 14 Marcias 1471. Folio, (211) f., blind stamped red vellum over oak boards, brass corners, bosses, clasps, one missing. Goff C-965; Simon BB I-32 dates his (this) copy, as does Goff, ³circiter 16 ferier 1471.² evidently copying another collation, since the colophon in this copy reads ³circit² 14 Marcias 1471. Ex Libris A. L. Simon. ³Initial leaf, recto, illuminated in red, green, purple, gold and silver with an Italian coat of arms on outer margin. Text is rubricated in red, blue and green throughout. Edition Princips of the first printed book on agriculture and economics.² 43. Culpeper, Nicholas (1616-1654). Culpeper¹s Last Legacy: Left and Bequeathed to his Dearest Wife, for the Publicke Good, Being the Choices and Most Profitable of those Secrets which while he Lived wre Lockt up in his Breast, and Resolved Never to be Publisht till after his Death....Never Publisht before in any of his other Works. By Nicholas Culpeper, late Student in Astrology and Physick. (London) N. Brooke, 1655. 8*, various pagings, contemporary calf rebacked in a solander case by Marcus Crahan. Win C 7523 two copies only, BM and Yale. ³This first edition includes a frontispiece portrait. The text is divided into three parts, with three titles and separate paginations. The advice covers many subjects: for a corn on the toe, ŒTake a black snail and roast him well in a white cloth, bruise him and lay him hot to the Corn, and it will take it away in a very short time.¹² 46. Dodoens, Rembert (1517-1585). Historia Vitis Vinique: Et Stirpivm Nonnvllarum Aliarum. Item Medicianlium Obseruationum Exempla....Colonae, Apud Maternum Cholinum, 1580. 8*, (16), 169, (6) p. Gr. II 416, only edition; SBB II 197; STC German 250; V 284. Not in B, L, Ma., Rothamsted or Westb. Ex Libris A. L. Simon. ³This work on wine includes a long list of authorities, and a history and consecration of the vine, wine and eau de vie. It is extremely rare.² 52. Elyot, Sir Thomas (1490?-1546). The Casell of Helth Corrected and in Some Places Augmented by the first Author therof, Sir Thomas Elyot Knight, the yere of our Lorde 1541. (London, Thomoas Berthelet) 1541. Small 8*, (7) 90f. (f. 74 is misnumbered 68 and the error continues to the end, making a total of 97 + 7f.) eighteenth century calf in Niger case by Marcus Crahan. Oxford 3 1539; SBB II 205 1539 second edition; STC 7645, Q only, cites 15 editions from 1539 to 1610. Not in B, Bish., L, Schr., V., or Westb. ³The tital has an engraved border with column and arch, dated 1534. The author, a diplomat, is said to have incurred the wrath of physicians for writing this wrok on the physical effects of various articles of diet, which was out of his field. His book called _The Governour_ gained him an appointment as ambassador to Charles V.² 53. Epulario, E Recettario, E Secreti Diuersi, E Mascalcia. Folio, (382) f., various pagings, bound in contemporary boards. ³A manuscript collection of cookery, medicine, instructions for dyeing, perfumes, varnishes, beautifying preparations, chemical procedures, etc., written in a clear hand by an Italian scribe in the earliest years of the seventeenth century. Bound at the end are two large broadsides: ŒDiuerse Infermita, che possono Venire alle Bestie Bouine...di Gio. Battista Ferrari Cavallerizzo Napolitano,¹ Bologna, Gioseffo Longhi, (ca. 1610), an engraing of an ox; and ŒDiuerse imfermit, che patiscono I Caualli, con li suoi rimedij infallibili, e prouati,¹ Bologna, Gioseffo Longhi, (ca. 1610), an engraving of a horse. Loosely inserted in the volume are three menus of banguest, two given to an English Ambassador in 1612 (?). An extraordinary manuscript, undoubtedly composed by the maitre d¹hotel of a great Italian household. On the verso of the title ŒLa Mascalcia Toscana¹ is inscribed ŒDella Libreria di Gualterotto Guicciardini.¹² 55. Fioravanti, Leonardo (d. 1588). Dello Specchio de Scientia Vniversale, ...Libri Tre.... Venetia, Vincenzo Valgrisi, 1564. 8*, (12), 313, (1) f. 18th century vellum. STC Italian 252; V 365; Westb. 103; Gr. II 581 cites 1567 edition; SBB II 262 cites 1572; SBG 674 cites other title. Not in B or L. ³The first edition of a general work on arts and sciences, including art, architecture, cosmography, geometry, medicine, perfumery, alchemy, law, distillation, aromatics, agriculture, cookery and philosophy.² 58. (Galenus, Caludius, Pseud. Galen¹s Calendar on Meus and Drynkys. England, ca. 1420.) 18x13 cm., 6 f. illuminated manuscript on vellum, 20 lines to the page, vellum binding, solander case by Marcus Crahan. ³The names of the months are rubricated, with gold illuminated capitals and foliated borders. The three leaves of Galen¹s Calendar on Metys and Drynkys have been disbound and removed thogether with their cognate leaves; with three illuminated manuscript pages in Latin. The Galen is in Transition Middle English in humanist script retaining the transition Middle English symbols.² ³A litteratim transcription of the beginning reads as follows: ŒAffter the furste prime afftyr the pyphyam rekyn x days affter and the sonday nexte folewying schal all be closyd...¹ The Calendar continues with advice on such subjects as the dangers of blood-letting, the values of wines at times of fasting, the choice of figs and raisins in March. In June one should eat Œsawgw and letuse;¹ in July keep from Œleccheri;¹ in September eat all ripe fruit; in Octover use most Œnewe wyne.¹ In October blood may be let save on the first and fifteenth days, which are perilous.² 67. Hollyngus, Edmunds (1556?-1612). De Salvbri Stvdiosorvm Victv, hoc est: De Literaturvm Omnivm Valetvdine Conseruanda, vitaq; diutissime` producenda, libellus.... Ingolstadiii, Typis Ederianis, per Andream Angermarium, 1602. 8*, (14), 145 p., contemporary vellum. V 446 (wrong collation); Wellcome Cat. I 3285. Not in B; Cushing; Gr.; L; Osler; Schr.; SBB; Waller; Westb. ³Hollings, an English physician born in Yorkshire, received his B.S. at Oxford. Renouncing Protestantism, he withdrew to Rome and finally settled at Ingolstadt, where he was appointed Professor of Medicine. The section of this work on food and drink includes quotes of Abernathy on English beer.² 79. Missisbugo, Christoforo Di. Banchetti Compositioni di Viviande, et Apparecchio Generale, di Christoforo Di Missisbvgo, Allo Illvstrissimo et Reverendissimo Signor il Signor Don Hippolito Da Este, Cardinale de Ferrara. Con gratia et Priuilegio. Ferrara, Giovanni De Buglhat et Antonio Hucher Compagni, 1549.