cb-rv-Platina-msg - 2/22/08 Reviews of cookbooks having Platina's recipes. NOTE: See also the files: cookbooks?-msg, cookbooks?-bib, cookbooks-SCA-msg, books-food-msg, cb-novices-msg, cb-rv-Apicius-msg, merch-cookbks-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: jtn at nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Cooking refs Date: 5 Jul 93 20:05:11 GMT Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn. David Tallan writes, >The version of Platina that I used was, I believe, put out by >Falconwood Press (I don't have it on me). It sells for $17 US at >Pennsic and can be found in a green cover, spiral bound. They don't >give credit to the translator so I don't know who it was (if anyone knows...) That sounds like the Falconwood printing, all right. When I bought my copy, the lady who sold it to me (who, I believe, is in charge of the press) told me that it is a direct reproduction of the Malinckrodt edition. If that is true, then a more complete referece is as follows: Platina, B., _De honesta voluptate: the first dated cookery book_, Venice: L. de Auila, 1475. Translated by Elizabeth Buermann Andrews. St. Louis: Malinckrodt Chemical Works (Malinckrodt Collection of Food Classics, vol. 5), 1967. Lots of stuff we do in the SCA winds up being pretty informal in terms of citations. If you're going to cite the Falconwood version anywhere outside the Society, however, it may be important to retain this information: if I understood what she said correctly (she was pretty vague), Malinckrodt gave her _only_ permission to reprint, and _not_ copyright, so that they still hold the copyright on the translation (which is all she printed). Our reputation in the outer world for copyright infringement is bad enough already.... -- Angharad/Terry From: david friedman Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 10:49:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: SC - Platina At 10:29 AM -0500 7/7/97, Aoibheall wrote: >Are there english translations of any more of Platina's veggie recipes other > than those in the Miscellany? >-Aibell >wittie at ac.grin.edu There is an English translation of the whole book, originally published by Mallinkrodt Chemical Company as part of a collection of early books on food and reprinted recently by someone who does SCA publications--I'm not sure of the name. You could probably find it at Pennsic, if you are going. David/Cariadoc http://www.best.com/~ddfr/ Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 12:17:43 -0400 From: "Knott, Deanna" Subject: RE: SC - Platina > Platina is now available in a wonderful new hardback edition with > excellent commentary by the translator (book at home, name forgotten). > you can get this from Devra at Poison Pen Press (devra at aol.com). > > much, much better than the falconwood edition. which was fine in it's > turn when nothing else was available. > > elaina If it is the one you are thinking of (just published in March), the book is: "Platina, on Right Pleasure and Good Health : A Critical Edition and Translation of De Honesta Voluptate Et Valetudine (Volume 168)" by Platina, Mary Ella Milham ISBN: 0866982086 It is a wonderful book. I have been having some fun with it. Yours, Avelina Keyes http://www.geocities.com/athens/academy/9523 where you can see my adventures in Platina's polenta and sausage, and some cool stuf by Eastern scribes Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 17:43:33 +0100 From: Christina Nevin Subject: SC - Platina books I want to buy a copy of Platina, but am a bit up in the air as to which book is best. Here are the three I have managed to find for sale; Jerred Metz "The Temperate Voluptuary; Freely rendered from Platina's cookbook, on its 500th anniversary." 1975, Capra Press Venice, L De Aguila, "Platina De Honesta Voluptate" 1967, Mallinckrodt collection of Food Classics translation of rare 1475 cookbook Platina, Mary Ella Milham "Platina : On Right Pleasure and Good Health" 1998, Medieval & Renaissance Texts & Studies, v.168 If you have any of these or have read any one or all of these, could you please give me your opinion as to their accuracy/reliability/etc. MTIA, Cordialmente, Lucretzia ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Lady Lucrezia-Isabella di Freccia | mka Tina Nevin Thamesreach Shire, The Isles, Drachenwald | London, UK Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 13:12:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Gretchen M Beck Subject: Re: SC - Platina books Excerpts from internet.listserv.sca-cooks: 13-Apr-99 SC - Platina books by Christina Nevin at caci.co. > > Venice, L De Aguila, "Platina De Honesta Voluptate" 1967, Mallinckrodt > collection of Food Classics translation of rare 1475 cookbook I have this one. It is a decent translation and has a facsimile of the original on facing pages. However, it is severely lacking in background information and notes -- it is just a translation. The table of contents isn't -- it's just a translation of the original, so you have to leaf through the text to find anything in particular. > Platina, Mary Ella Milham "Platina : On Right Pleasure and Good Health" > 1998, Medieval & Renaissance Texts & Studies, v.168 If you have to get just one translation -- this is the one to get. Good translation, lots of notes on both the translation, and background comments. There is a long introductory section giving a history of the work and the author and some discussion of Italian foods and foodways in the time of Platina. The table of contents tells you what page to find the recipes on. I believe the work is indexed as well (I didn't actually check when I had a copy in hand), and I believe there is a bibliography. On the downside, there are no facsimiles, although printed Latin text is included. toodles, margaret Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 14:57:10 -0400 From: Philip & Susan Troy Subject: Re: SC - Platina books Christina Nevin wrote: > Jerred Metz "The Temperate Voluptuary; Freely rendered from Platina's > cookbook, on its 500th anniversary." 1975, Capra Press I haven't seen this one, but the description makes it sound, I dunno, kinda touristy, and I'm concerned about that "freely rendered" stuff ; ) > Venice, L De Aguila, "Platina De Honesta Voluptate" 1967, Mallinckrodt > collection of Food Classics translation of rare 1475 cookbook I've seen this one, and it's okay, but... > Platina, Mary Ella Milham "Platina : On Right Pleasure and Good Health" > 1998, Medieval & Renaissance Texts & Studies, v.168 This one is better. It gives both the Latin and English, which as I recall, the Mallinckrodt edition doesn't. It's an excellent translation and tells you much more about the author and his world than any other edition I've seen. Adamantius Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 14:18:03 -0500 From: "Lenny Zimmermann" Subject: SC - Re: sca-cooks V1 #1339 On Tue, 13 Apr 1999 17:43:33 +0100, Lucretzia wrote: >I want to buy a copy of Platina, but am a bit up in the air as to which book >is best. Here are the three I have managed to find for sale; > >Jerred Metz "The Temperate Voluptuary; Freely rendered from Platina's >cookbook, on its 500th anniversary." 1975, Capra Press Bona Dies Illustrissima Madonna, I'm not certain of the accuracy of this work, as the only copy I found available was for around $80 and there was a note mentioning something about woodcuts, leading me to believe this was a work devoted more to whatever pictures were intent in "Platina's Cookbook". I have NOT seen a copy of this book, however, so I really don't know what is in it, that is simply conjecture and it could easily be a very wrong conjecture at that. >Venice, L De Aguila, "Platina De Honesta Voluptate" 1967, Mallinckrodt >collection of Food Classics translation of rare 1475 cookbook This work I do have, and it provides a side-by-side Latin-English translation. It is a fairly decent transcription where the author noted having some problems translating the 16th Century Italian. I find it to be a very nice piece of work, but not knowing any Latin, cannot vouch for the complete accuracy of it. It is an excellent source, however. >Platina, Mary Ella Milham "Platina : On Right Pleasure and Good Health" >1998, Medieval & Renaissance Texts & Studies, v.168 This is a new one to me. Is this a discussion of Platina's text, or a transcription (possibly with notes) of that text? I'd have to look a bit farther to find out, but personally I wouldn't mind acquiring it, either way. If it's quite affordable I would definitely go with the Mallinckrodt collection book, as at the very least you are certain to get a full transcription of the text. This last intrigues me greatly, though. I'll let you know if I find out more, if you would do me the same kindness should you find out more on it! Lionardo Acquistapace Bjornsborg, Ansteorra (Lenny Zimmermann, San Antonio, TX) zarlor at acm.org Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 16:01:21 -0400 From: "Gaylin Walli" Subject: SC - Milham's Platina Lionardo Acquistapace said: >Here is some further information on Madonna Lucrezia's request for Platina >books. Amazon.Com has a single customer review that states: > >"A reader from Michigan , November 23, 1998 >Thorough, if a little stuffy, as it should be. While the first portion of >this book details Milham's review and history of extant manuscripts of "De >honesta voluptua" (On Right Pleasure...), I believe the true value for me >lies in the second portion which comprises better than 3/4ths of the entire >work. Milham's side by side copies of the original text and her translation >are the true meat of the book. For the entire work, the scholarship is >exacting, the notes copious, and the bibliography extremely complete. Well >worth the price for the serious recreationist-collector (especially members >of the SCA)." That would be *my* response. :) I ordered this book through interlibrary loan after seeing a kind gentle clutching it at a brewing and cooking symposium I attended. It was a very sad day when I returned that book to the library. I do not claim to be an expert on the translation end of things, but in passing notes from this book to friends I trust in various language departments, they insist that, at a casual glance, the translation is good. They've not had more time for a detailed examination of the translation, however. So for what it's worth, *I'd* buy the Milham translation in a hot second. Now if I could just collect enough pop cans to turn in for money. Jasmine Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 16:42:37 -0500 From: LYN M PARKINSON Subject: Re: SC - Platina books > Platina, Mary Ella Milham "Platina : On Right Pleasure and Good Health" > 1998, Medieval & Renaissance Texts & Studies, v.168> If you have to get just one translation -- this is the one to get. Good translation, lots of notes on both the translation, and background comments. There is a long introductory section giving a history of the work and the author and some discussion of Italian foods and foodways in the time of Platina. The table of contents tells you what page to find the recipes on. I believe the work is indexed as well (I didn't actually check when I had a copy in hand), and I believe there is a bibliography. On the downside, there are no facsimiles, although printed Latin text is included. toodles, margaret >> I have both the Falconwood Press edition of Platina, and the new Milham. Milham is definately the one to buy. It's far more expensive, but Platina is a serious and important addition to the serious cook's library. It has an index of the names he mentions, _Index Nominum Proprium_,and an index to the introduction. It does not have an English index to the recipes, and I have placed a colored plastic paper clip at the beginning of each 'book' which lists its contents. There is _Index Verboram Medicorum et Culinariorium_, which are the Latin terms for the terms of medical matter required by the series, with the addition of all edible foodstuffs and the dishes concocted from them. That works if your Latin is good--mine isn't. i.e., 'sampsa 2.13' means that you can find the term sampsa in book 2, number 13. You can then go through the lengthy number 13, looking for sampsa, and trying to figure out from the English version on the facing page what the word means. I stick with my paper clips. It is handy to have the little Falconwood Press version with the Table of Contents in the beginning, and I use the two books together. I'm also more likely to take the Falconwood into the kitchen, and keep the Milham clean in the 'library'. As to accuracy, I expect that the Milham is quite accurate, but have not cross referenced them with other examples, say from _Medieval Kitchen_. Allison allilyn at juno.com, Barony Marche of the Debatable Lands, Pittsburgh, PA Kingdom of Aethelmearc Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 12:57:12 -0400 From: "Alderton, Philippa" Subject: Re: SC - Milham's Platina I have the Milham translation, and I think very highly of it. I do read Latin fairly well, and every time I've checked a recipe (Adamantius laughs at me for it, but I've found I can get a better "feel" for the author's intent if I read the original), I've found it to be very accurate. In some cases, I've had to rely on her translations of specific terms since I didn't have them in any of my dictionaries. In others, I've had to translate her literal translations into more common cooking terms- the lady is an excellent scholar, but not a cook- and most of you know my ongoing rasslin' match with the word "lardus" which seems to be universally translated as bacon, but I've found it to be very close to the original text. I also found her introduction to be very well done, and to give me a nice feel for the time in which it was written. The sole weakness I've found is that the index only uses the Latin terms, so if you go into it looking for "lamb" you'd better know the Latin word for it. Philippa Farrour Caer Frig Southeastern Ohio Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 20:36:35 -0400 From: Ann & Les Shelton Subject: SC - Milham Version of Platina From: Angie Malone >Someone gave me a copy of Platina, De honesta Voluptate Which is VOlumbe >5 from the mallinckrodt collection of food classics which was published >in 1967 and comes in a black box. > >It has it translated on the left and the untranslated on the right. >The person paid a king's ransom for it. As much as it would've cost for >the Milham version. I was thinking of returning it and getting the >Milham version. Does anyone have an opinion of the Milham version or if >you know of the version that I have opinions on that would be welcome. > >Angeline I have both and I would get the Milham version. I don't read Latin, so I can't speak to which is the more accurate translation. However, the Milham version provides about a 45 page chronology of Platina's life and assements of his character (he rose from humble origins to become librarian of the Vatican library, although he twice wound up in jail for getting on the wrong side of Pope Paul II). She provides close to 40 pages of literary analysis, including his sources, his originality, and the textual history of De honesta voluptate. She also identifies the friends mentioned by Platina, and includes a chronological listing of all of Platina's works. The Milham version gave me a much better feel for what he accomplished and how he did it. Amazon has the Milham version for $32.00. John le Burguillun Nottinghill Coill, Atlantia Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 19:18:04 -0600 (MDT) From: Mary Morman Subject: Re: SC - Platina I managed to get the mallinckrodt book through a dealer for about $100 nearly two years ago. I was ecstatic when I received it. Then, almost immediately, the Milham Platina came out, and it is far, far superior. The Mallinckrodt has virtually no background, introductory, or other material. It is typed (yes typed, on typewriter, one key at a time) and it looks it. The Milham has a variety of excellent introductory material, puts the Platina documents in historical perspective, and closely examines and explains the different manuscripts used in her edition. Neither book has redacted recipes. However I find the Milham translation superior in both content and readability. Both books have the original Latin on facing pages with the translation. the Mallinckrodt is not typeset. The Milham is. When nothing else was available, the Mallinckrodt was a God-send. With the Milham available at a reasonable price, the Mallinckrodt returns to the shelf as a curiousity for the completist book-collector. Elaina Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 12:45:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Gretchen M Beck Subject: Re: SC - Milham Version of Platina While I would definately get Milham, I would not return the Mallinkrodt. Mallinkrodt has something particularly valuable to recreation/documentation -- a facsimile. Milham has only a transcription. The facsimile lets you go back and check what was written; transcriptions can introduce errors. On the other hand, if you combine the two works, you have a collection that can't be beat for Platina. toodles, margaret Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 17:20:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Huette von Ahrens Subject: Re: SC - Recommended Books The recommended Platina is the Milham edition. Here is the pertinent data: ISBN 1889818127 (alk. paper) Platina, 1421-1481. [De honesta voluptate. English] Platina's On right pleasure and good health : based upon the critical edition and translation of De honesta voluptate et valetudine / by Mary Ella Milham. Asheville, NC : Pegasus Press, 1999. Terence Scully is publishing a new book, due out in November, called "The Neopolitan recipe collection". I have only seen blurbs about this, however, I would recommend anything that Scully has written/edited. Here is the pertinent data: ISBN 0472109723 (cloth : alk. paper) [Cuoco napoletano.] The Neapolitan recipe collection : (New York, Pierpont Morgan Library, MS Bèuhler, 19) : a critical edition and English translation / by Terence Scully ; initially with the collaboration of Rudolf Grewe. Ann Arbor, Mich. : University of Michigan Press,1999. Huette Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 21:34:01 -0600 From: "RANDALL DIAMOND" Subject: SC - Platina Greetings to all this festive season, Congrats to Philip on his new Flowers and Rosenbaum Apicius. I too have acquired a new goodie and wondered if I had scored a rare item. It was on Ebay and I got it for a moderate price. It is an English translation of Platina's "On Honest Indugence and Good Health" translated from the Latin by Elizabeth Andrews and published as Volume V of the Mallinckrodt Collection of Food Classics. It is interesting in that on the opposite page of the translated text is a full facsimilie of the original Latin manuscript circa 1475. This edition was published by the Mallinckrodt Chemical Works in 1967. I gather that most of the previous translations were from the French edition of 1546. Is anyone familiar with this translation (Andrews)? Also does anyone know what the other volumes in this collection might be? I would be interested in tracking them down. It is rather odd to get a cookbook from a chemical company. Is their main product MSG? Akim Yaroslavich Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 16:13:22 EST From: allilyn at juno.com Subject: Re: SC - Platina lunch (15th c Italian, too) Milham is definately a good buy, but I keep my Falconwood Press reprint by it because that has a contents page, which Milham doesn't, except at the beginning of chapters. Have not seen the paperback Milham. Regards, Allison, allilyn at juno.com Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 17:24:33 -0500 From: Ann & Les Shelton Subject: SC - Milham's Platina >How much different is the paperback from the hard cover? I just ordered >the paperback from B&N as it was cheaper and I didn't know that there >was a difference in the two editions. Is her translation the best of >the bunch or do people on the list recommend a different one? > Daniel Raoul I'd recommend the Milham version. I haven't seen the abridged version, so I don't know what they took out. The hardcover version not only gives you a reprint of the original Latin with her translation, but a section on the life of Platina and an analysis of the influences on "De Honesta Voluptate." The other commonly used version is the Mallinckrodt Collection of Food Classics, circa 1967. Since it's a lot older, it's obviously harder to find and more expensive. The major benefit of this version is that it has a photocopy of the original Latin text, so that those who read Latin can do their own translation/interpretation. It doesn't provide the additional information found in the Milham version. In addition, the translation is typed in all block capitals, which I find harder to read than the Milham version. Members of this list have found errors in both versions, and I don't read Latin, so I can't say which is the more accurate translation. However, owning both, I prefer the Milham version. John le Burguillun Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2000 20:32:20 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - Platina lunch (15th c Italian, too) > >Many of us use the new translation by Mary Ella Milham which is still in > >print in hardbound for about $40 and in an abridged trade paperback for > >under $20. > > How much different is the paperback from the hard cover? I just ordered the > paperback from B&N as it was cheaper and I didn't know that there was a > difference in the two editions. Is her translation the best of the bunch > or do people on the list recommend a different one? > > Daniel Raoul Dr. Milham is a classicist and her translation has been compiled by comparing and evaluating all known versions of Platina. It is probably the best translation of the work ever prepared. The hardbound and the paperback are of the Milham translation and were published by the University of Arizona. IIRC, and we should ask Devra to check me on this, the paperback version does not have the Latin text and the some of the scholarly notes. If all you are interested in is the translation, the paperback should be fine. Bear Date: Sun, 19 Mar 2000 07:36:33 -0700 From: "UnruhBays, Melanie A" Subject: RE: SC - Platina lunch (15th c Italian, too) Having attended her classes at CooksCon, I think Dr. Milham's translation is as good as one of these things can be. I have two translations, and Milham's is by far the better of the two. I was impressed by her description of the research process (traveling all over Europe looking at multiple manuscripts), and by her knowledge of the political environment and the source of Platina's recipes. Not having compared the hardback and paperback copies, I cannot tell you what the differences are. I have the paperback, which I find to be very useful and entertaining to read. This is more than a cookbook - it includes a lot of historical information about Platina's social circles, political situations, and the habits of eating in Renaissance Italy. Maredudd Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 18:25:39 +0200 From: "Cindy M. Renfrow" Subject: SC - Milham I just came across this. Sorry if it's a repeat. See http://www.lib.unb.ca/library/archives/platina/platina.html The Harriet Irving Library is pleased to announce the launch of: Platina. On Right Pleasure and Good Health A Critical Evaluation and Translation of De Honesta Voluptate et Valetudine by Dr. Mary Ella Milham New paperback edition 1998 / 528 pages $35, £31 Cindy Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 09:07:09 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] "A fry of whatever meat you like" To: "Bill Fisher" , "Cooks within the SCA" >> We have Milham's translation but haven't done much with it yet. >> Elizabeth/Betty Cook > > Cool, now I can see if I can find TWO editions of Platina :-) > Cadoc Devra did have Milham's translation. If you decide to get a copy, be aware there are two inprint editions. The hardbound has the original text fronting the translation. The paperback is just the translation. I prefer the translation with original text because it lets me consider the original language when confronted with a question about the translation. Bear Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 20:38:09 -0500 From: Bill Fisher Subject: Re: Rant on research; was, Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Coffyns To: Cooks within the SCA On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 16:28:08 -0500, Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius wrote: ove of extremism ;-). On > the other hand, for example, the paperback edition of, say, Millham's > translation of Platina, which does not (IIRC) include the original > Latin text, is clearly and demonstrably not as good as the hardcover > edition, which does. If that makes me an evil decryer/critic of > secondary sources, so be it, but I prefer to see it as a preference Well, that's a bad and good example. The latin facing pages are a re-written averaging of several manuscript versions together and fixing the latin so that it can be read. Says so in the Scriptorum in the beginning part of the book. (Page 59). So what you are seeing is an aggregated and corrected latin version, and an english translation for that. It doesn't make invalid though because Milham states in the footnotes which manuscripts the various parts come from in each section and even what sources Platina is copying from. Compound that with the fact that no autograph copy of this exists in Platina's hand. (my theory was that seeing as he was the vatican librarian, he probably passed the work off to a scribe to clean up his in prison edition) The bad part is that it isn't all Platina's latin. The good part is that Milham is very precise in her documentation as to which sources she is pulling from, what changes she has made, even to the extent of the differences in the various manuscripts. I'll still use it as a primary source though. Cadoc Edited by Mark S. Harris cb-rv-Platina-msg Page 12 of 12