table-manners-msg

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table-manners-msg - 6/16/08

Period table manners.

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NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

Thank you,

Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous

Stefan at florilegium.org

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Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 17:27:06 -0700 (PDT)

From: Laura C Minnick <lainie at gladstone.uoregon.edu>

Subject: Re: SC - help needed on knightly virtues/Ideals of Chivalry

Find this book in your local University library, or get the local

library to get it via ILL.-

F.J.Furnivall, ed. _Early English Meals and Manners_. London,

Early English Text Society, 1868.

In the Furnival you will find these very useful texts:

The Boke of Curtasye_ (Sloane MS, 1986, British Museum, 1430-1440)

Wynkyn de Worde's _The Boke of Kervynge_, 1413

John Russell's _The Book of Nurture_ (Harleian MS. 4011, BrM, mid 15th c.)

_Ffor to Serve a Lord_ early 16th century

These are all manners and training books- the sort used in a large noble

house to teach the young men. Very, Very useful. There is also a good deal

of material on serving etc., in :

Bridget Ann Henisch's _Fast and Feast_ (University Park,

Pennsylvania: Pennsylvania State University Press, 1976)

If you have more questions, please ask- I did a term project on servers

and serving for a class I took on Medieval Ceremony and Ritual, and

somewhere I still have the materials. (Probably under the rock, like

everything else...)

'Lainie

- -

Laura C. Minnick

Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 16:02:21 EST

From: RuddR at aol.com

Subject: SC - Re: table eating utensils

Stefan quotes and writes:

> > << The fundraiser also featured no silverware, as they thought

> > medieval man ate without utensils. >>

> >

> > Actually, they did eat without utensils other than a knife until relatively

> > late in period. This is the reason why you only use your right hand to serve

> > yourself food with (your left being used for personal cleansing).

> Hmm. Yes, I believe this left-handed thing was a tradition in the Middle

> East.

> Do you have any evidence that this was ever done with any consistancy in

> the non-Moslem parts of Europe?

I have recently been looking at medieval illuminations of diners at table,

trying to answer this very question. For the most part, diners are eating

with their right hands, but every now and then, with their left hands (see:

http://www.50megs.com/matterer/medpix/gallery1/mpix18.htm). In some pictures

the diners are reaching into the dishes with one hand while holding morsels

of food in the other (http://www.50megs.com/matterer/medpix/gallery4/mpix115.htm). So it seems as

though the Islamic stricture against eating with the left hand did not apply

in medieval Christendom. Perhaps the custom of public hand washing before

dinner had something to do with this.

Rudd Rayfield

Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 02:10:17 -0400

From: Christine A Seelye-King <mermayde at juno.com>

Subject: SC - Table manners

Hello all, I am almost through wading through my backlog of emails, and

found this one I though you might like.

Christianna

- --------- Forwarded message ----------

From: Mark Mettler <mettler at bulloch.net>

To: meridian-ty at egroups.com

On Manners:

When Sir Ector delivered the Elegy for Lancelot in Le Morte Darthur he

said, "Thou was the meekest man and the gentelist that ever ate in a

hall among the ladies."

Some simple rules from historical documents:

Do not pet the dog during dinner.

If thou do no drink, even though, offer it unto thy guests and humor

them by pretending to partake.

In all humility and friendship partake from a common plate and cup.

Do not appear gluttony, nor ravenous, nor as a hog a trough, but be

reserved in thy partaking that you seem grateful for the gifts you

partake.

Your bones, and shells and other things not fit for thy stomach, throw

upon the floor and do not appears to be wasteful, but having cleanly

removed the worthy before displaying your gratefulness on the floor.

It is best to serve they guest at feast a sauce of bitter taste, a

vinegar sauce and pepper too shall satisfy the tongue oft your food is

cold.

- --

Ld. Gryffri de Newmarch

http://www2.gasou.edu/SCA

From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 18:42:58 -0400

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] what did they do with dirty tableware?

On 7 May 2002, at 13:42, Harris Mark.S-rsve60 wrote:

> I thought napkins were a post-period development. Let's assume

> a 14th Century feast here.

As it happens, I just taught a class at a local schola on medieval

table manners. Although most of the period courtesy manuals are

from the 15th and 16th centuries, there are some that are older.

The 12th century "Urbanus Magnus" by Daniel of Beccles

mentions napkins used to wipe ones hands after washing. He also

instructs diners to wipe their knives on a piece of bread, and not to

lick it or scape it clean on edge of his plate.

Brighid ni Chiarain *** mka Robin Carroll-Mann

Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom

rcmann4 at earthlink.net

Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 15:58:36 -0700 (PDT)

From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] what did they do with dirty tableware?

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

--- jenne at fiedlerfamily.net wrote:

> It doesn't look like napkins/towels to go accross

> the diners laps are

> postperiod, they are definitely present in the 16th

> c. manners texts.

Yes. And in drawings too.

> Besides, you wipe you fingers and your utensils on

> your BREAD, of course!

If you are 16th century, trenchers were less used,

hence the napkins/towels.

If you are 14th century, then you wiped your fingers

on your dog. Or so I have heard. :-)

Huette

Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 16:17:48 -0700

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at efn.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] what did they do with dirty tableware?

>If you are 14th century, then you wiped your fingers

>on your dog. Or so I have heard. :-)

>Huette

Uh, nooo... the texts are also explicit about NOT touching the dog or cat

(yes, they had indoor cats!). Besides, who wants a greasy animal rubbing on

you after dinner?

'Lainie

Date: Tue, 07 May 2002 20:23:10 -0400

From: phoenissa at netscape.net

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] what did they do with dirty tableware?

"Harris Mark.S-rsve60" <Mark.s.Harris at motorola.com> wrote:

>I thought napkins were a post-period development. Let's assume

>a 14th Century feast here.

I don't know much about the 14thc., but I'm fairly certain that napkins were around in the 16th. I'd be surprised if some form of napkin *didn't* exist at that point - I know it's bad to assume that if something existed in antiquity, and then existed again during the Renaissance, that it was around in between, but...the Romans most certainly did use napkins. (There's this cute little poem by Catullus, 1st c. BC, about an uncouth dinner guest who tries to steal these fancy linen napkins that were souvenirs from Spain.) So, napkins definitely were not first invented after 1600. :-)

Vittoria

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Naphins

Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 20:54:19 -0500

>The people at Camelot Village say that the Romans used napkins.

>Angustias

"You rifle through every dish that's served: sow's paps, pigs ears,

enough woodcock for two, half a mullet and an entire pike,

filet of moray eel, a pullet thigh, a dove dripping with sauce.

When it is all wrapped well between the corners of an oil-soaked

napkin, you pass it to your servant who carries it home;

while we remain seated there and can do nothing.

Give us back our meal, if you have even the slightest shame.

I did not invite you for tomorrow, Caecilianus."

Martial 2,37

Guess they're right.

Bear

Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 20:51:29 -0600 (MDT)

From: Ann Sasahara <ariann at nmia.com>

To: "SCA-Cooks maillist (E-mail)" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] what did they do with dirty tableware?

On Tue, 7 May 2002 jenne at fiedlerfamily.net wrote:

> > Stefan! Bad! No biscuit! Don't wipe your knife on the tablecloth- on your

> > napkin maybe, but nor the tablecloth. Nor do you wipe your face on the

> > tablecloth.

> > --------

> > I thought napkins were a post-period development. Let's assume

> > a 14th Century feast here.

> It doesn't look like napkins/towels to go across the diners laps are

> postperiod, they are definitely present in the 16th c. manners texts.

I'm looking at the dust jacket and frontpiece of _Dining with William

Shakespeare_. It's a wedding scene detail from "The Life of Sir Henry

Unton (1557 - 1596)". The men in the painting have their napkins on their

left shoulder or on their left forearm. The ladies at each end of the

table have their napkins in their lap.

I assume from the painting that white cloth napkins did exist in

late 16th c. England, but that only ladies placed them across the lap. Men

had a choice of left shoulder or left forearm.

Does anyone know of any other pictoral evidence? Manuals of behavior

are interesting because they tell you what people SHOULD do. Paintings are

more interesting because they show you what people ACTUALLY do. Come Watson,

the game is afoot.

wild thought:

If an Elizabethan man placed his napkin across his lap, as was the custom

shown by the ladies, did his peers consider him effeminate?

Ariann, who eats her salad with her dinner fork and lets the salad fork go

back to the kitchen unused...

From: jenne at fiedlerfamily.net

Date: Wed, 8 May 2002 00:13:23 -0400 (EDT)

To: "SCA-Cooks maillist (E-mail)" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] what did they do with dirty tableware?

> I'm looking at the dust jacket and frontpiece of _Dining with William

> Shakespeare_. It's a wedding scene detail from "The Life of Sir Henry

> Unton (1557 - 1596)". The men in the painting have their napkins on their

> left shoulder or on their left forearm. The ladies at each end of the

> table have their napkins in their lap.

Hm. In the serving manners books, we are directed (we being the servers)

to carry a towel (ie. napkin like object) across the arms/shoulder) and to

put a separate towel/napkin across the laps of the dinner guests extending

from the edge of the table. I'll try to remember to look up WHICH serving

book says that tomorrow.

-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa

From: "Patricia Collum" <pjc2 at cox.net>

To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 17:56:16 -0700

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Medieval eating

I found this today while looking for info on medieval table manners and

thought I would share

http://www.azeri.org/Azeri/az_latin/manuscripts/etiquette/english/etiquette_

english.html

Cecily

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] hats, andperiod spectacles

Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 14:06:08 -0600

> When wearing a hat and wimple, does one extend their pinky when consuming

> food or drink? When did that practice begin? Anyone know?

> Olwen the helpful

It is a Medieval practice according to some sources. The little finger was

used to dip and spread spices at the table. It was kept extended while

eating and drinking to keep it from grease and food which would contaminate

the spices.

I haven't chased down the contemporary etiquette manuals to see what they

say, so I take it with a grain of salt--on my extended pinky.

Bear

Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 12:57:41 -0800

From: "Robin Carroll-Mann"<rcmann4 at earthlink.net>

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Subject: Spreading spices (was Re: [Sca-cooks] hats, andperiod spectacles)

On Tue, 19 Nov 2002 14:06:08 -0600 "Decker, Terry D."

<TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> wrote:

> It is a Medieval practice according to some

> sources. The little finger was

> used to dip and spread spices at the table. It

> was kept extended while

> eating and drinking to keep it from grease and

> food which would contaminate

> the spices.

> I haven't chased down the contemporary

> etiquette manuals to see what they

> say, so I take it with a grain of salt--on my

> extended pinky.

According to some period books of manners, the proper way to take salt is on

the tip of your knife -- after you have wiped it clean on a piece of bread.

I don't recall any "spice" other than salt being mentioned as being served on

the dining table.

Brighid ni Chiarain

Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 15:31:30 -0400

From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: seving wenches

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> Well, considering that most of the ettiquete books were aimed at seven

> to eleven year old boys, what do you think?

> I think they referred to existing rude/crude behavior in order to

> illustrate polite behavior for persons aspiring to conduct themselves

> honorably in public.

I guess what I don't get is how this proves that this behavior was more

to be seen in period than it is in our day? I mean, young men between 10

and 30 sometimes practice this kind of behavior in groups now when they

don't feel the need to be polite-- but they don't do it in public mixed groups.

Mostly. We still pet the cat at the table, or scratch our heads while

eating, or

When you look at the rules for proper behavior as a whole, it is mostly

the sort of thing that you SAY to seven to eleven year olds. Because

even though the grown-ups don't do it, it's the sort of things kids want

to do. Reading those courtesy books sounds exactly like the mom's

table-litany to me. I hear people saying these things to their kids all

the time!

For instance:

The Little Children's Little Book (courtesy book c. 1480)

"See that your hands and nails are clean.

Don't eat till you're told.

or sit down till you're told.

Till you are fully helped, touch nothing.

Don't break your bread in two,

or put your pieces in your pocket,

or your meat in the saltcellar.

Don't pick your ears or nose,

or drink with your mouth full,

Don't spit over or on the table; that's not proper.

Don't out your elbows on the table,

nor belch as if you had a bean in your throat.

Be careful of good food; and be courteous and cheerful

Don't whisper in any man's ear.

Take your food with your fingers, and don't waste it.

Don't grin or talk too much, or spill your food.

Keep your cloth clean before you.

Cut your meat; don't bite it.

Don't open your mouth too wide when you eat,

or blow on your food.

Keep your trencher clean.

Don't rush at the cheese,

or throw your bones on the floor,

Sit still till grace is said and you've washed your hands,

and don't spit in the basin.

Rise quietly, don't jabber, but

thank your host and all the company,

and then men will say, `A gentleman was here!'

He who despises this teaching

isn't fit to sit at a good man's table."

Text (slightly regularized and some small changes in running commentary)

from The Babees Book, ed. Frederick J. Furnivall, EETS 32, 1868, pp. 16-24.,

http://www.courses.fas.harvard.edu/~chaucer/special/lifemann/manners/

childbk.html

-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net

Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 06:53:40 +0100

From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Hartmann von Aue: Tischzucht?

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Am Samstag, 24. M?rz 2007 05:39 schrieb Stefan li Rous:

> Giano asked:

> <<< Just a brief question: Does anyone know of a useable English rendering of

> Hartmann von Aue's 'Tischzucht'? If not, I think I found a new project. >>>

> A useable English rendering of it? I'm not even heard of it

> before. :-)

> There is no mention of it in the Florilegium.

> More details about this manuscript, please.

I don't know much about the manuscript source. It's a poem about good manners

at table, attributed to Hartmann von Aue and probably only preserved because

of that. Conventionally dated to before 1210, it is considered the earliest

German language source on the matter and seems to have been influential in

the later (very productive) genre.

Doesn't seem like there is an English rendering. At least, not in our library

system here.

Giano

Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 01:25:09 -0700 (PDT)

From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Hartmann von Aue: Tischzucht?

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

--- Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de> wrote:

> Just a brief question: Does anyone know of a useable English rendering of

> Hartmann von Aue's 'Tischzucht'? If not, I think I found a new project.

> Giano

Yes, I think that there is one book, published in 2001. [See below] I

think that this

poem would be under the chapter on lyric poetry, because the subtitle

states that this

is the complete works of Hartman von Aue. I have never heard of him

before, but now you have me curious.

Huette

Hartmann, von Aue, 12th cent.

Arthurian romances, tales, and lyric poetry : the complete works of

Hartmann von Aue / translated

with commentary by Frank Tobin, Kim Vivian, Richard H. Lawson.

University Park, Pa. : Pennsylvania State University Press, c2001.

xiii, 329 p. ; 25 cm.

ISBN: 027102111X (alk. paper)

0271021128 (pbk. : alk. paper)

Contents: The lament -- Lyric poetry -- Erec -- Gregorius -- Poor

Heinrich -- Iwein.

Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2007 09:20:51 +0100

From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Hartmann von Aue: Tischzucht?

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Am Samstag, 24. M?rz 2007 09:25 schrieb Huette von Ahrens:

> Yes, I think that there is one book, published in 2001. [See below] I think

> that this poem would be under the chapter on lyric poetry, because the

> subtitle states that this is the complete works of Hartman von Aue. I have

> never heard of him before, but now you have me curious.

Thanks. I'll see if I can get this (though how they fit his entire works on

under 400 pages defeats me - very small print?). He is very much worth

reading, BTW. Even if the Tischzucht doesn't turn out to be in here (the

attribution is medieval and has been disputed). Some really interesting

storylines there, and he produced my favourite line of medieval verse

Ein riter so geleret was

Daz er in den bouchen las

Was darin geschriben stant

A knight was so well educated that he could read the things that were

written in books...

Giano

Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 13:04:36 +0200 (CEST)

From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Solution to the Tischzucht puzzle

To: Sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

I just wanted to let you know: the mystery of Hartmann

von Aue's Tischzucht has been cleared up. it is not

likely included in any of his works because the

attribution is indeed quite spurious (that's what you

get for trusting 19th century books) and uncommon (the

more common one is Tannh?user, and that, too is likely

spurious).

I have now secured a relatively recent critical

edition. It appears no English translation is

available (at least neither various booksites nor

Google have yielded one). Looks like an Easter

project, if you ask me.

Giano

Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 18:48:14 +0200 (CEST)

From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] More on the Tischzucht

To: Sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

Apparently there *is* an English translation:

Furnivall, F.J.: Tannhaeuser's courtly breeding (Early

English Text Society, Extra Series VIII), London 1869,

pp. 143-147

Now, to see if it's actually any good...

Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2007 16:57:44 +0200 (CEST)

From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Bread and butter issues

To: Sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

Something I just came across doing research on

manners:

A Middle Low German guide to table manners dated to

the fourteenth century, originally published by A.

L?bben in Germania 21, 1876m pp. 424-430. I'm working

on getting my hands on the original data, right now

I'm going from a reprinting in Endermann, H.: So du zu

tische wollest gan, Union Verlag Berlin, 1991.

Some very good stuff in there, I'm hoping to get to

grips with it more intimately. THe sentence that

struck me was:

Du enscalt nicht de botteren planeren mit dem dumen

uppe din brot alse ein Vrese

You shall not spread the butter over your bread with

your thumb like a Frisian.

Butter apparently was provided as a kind of condiment

at table (the text speaks of adding it to spoon

dishes, and coordinating this with your fellow diner),

and I wish I knew whether the author here

disapproves of the combination with bread, the

spreading, or the use of the thumb.

Nifty. I like the last days of being sick - time for

research, not too much fever.

Giano

Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 10:49:41 -0400

From: "Elise Fleming" <alysk at ix.netcom.com>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Tudor Wax Fountain

To: "sca-cooks at ansteorra.org" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Greetings! There is a new video of the Hampton Court cooks' attempt

at a miniature wax fountain which you can see at http://

tudorcook.blogspot.com/ . It isn't completed yet but you can see how

it functions. There are also some nice blogs about recent recipes.

Alys Katharine

Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 17:15:07 -0300

From: Suey <lordhunt at gmail.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Medieval questioniare - tablecothes, buffets

and tisane

To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

Many thanks Saint Philip for providing the coquinaria address which I

copied and pasted, took the test and according to them I flunked the

tablecloth and the buffet questions but I totally disagree.

The tablecloth first introduced in Europe was by Ziryab, the Kurd,

founder of the first conservatory of music which was in Cordoba. His

tablecloth was leather. The surnape did not exist then on the 9th C.

Muslim Hispanos were instructed to clean their knives and hands on the

flatbread provided. Spaniards did not have trenchers. Yes, Rickert,

Edith. _The Babees? Book Medieval Manners for the Young: Done into

Modern English from Dr. Furnivall?s text_, New York, Cooper Square,

Publishers, Inc., New York, 1966 states:

p xxxi a young nobleman was instructed not to wipe his nose on the

tablecloth.

p 6 says to wipe your mouth with a cloth not the tablecloth so as not to

dirty the drinking cup.

p 14 repeats the above in poetry.

p 59 "Ye do not right to soil your table, nor to wipe your knives on

that, but on your napkin."

p 136 repeat: "Wipe thy mouth when thou shalt drink ale or wine

"On thy napkin only; and see all things be clean.

"Wipe thy mouth when thou shalt drink ale or wine

"On thy napkin only; and see all things be clean."

p 152: "

"Having a napkin

thereon them to wipe;

Thy mouth therewith

clean do thou make, . . "

p 164 again nose - handkerchief.

Suey