p-feasts-msg – 3/5/17

General comments about period feasts.

NOTE: See also the files: p-menus-msg, p-cooks-msg, feast-decor-msg, nefs-msg, high-table-msg, ME-feasts-msg, p-kitchens-msg, books-food-msg, p-tableware-msg, tablecloths-msg.

************************************************************************
NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

Thank you,
    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
************************************************************************

From: gfrose at cotton.vislab.olemiss.edu (Terry Nutter)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 14:55:02 -0500
Subject: Re:  SC - medieval courses

Hi, Katerine here.  Stefan asks about medieval courses.  From a modern 
standpoint, think of them as mini-meals.  Dinners typically started with
bread, hard fruits, and hard cheeses on the table, and ended with soft
fruits, soft cheeses, wafers, and spiced wine.  (I'm talking primarily
about 13th to 15th centur here.)  I have never seen either of these
described as a course; they're simply taken for granted as what's there
at those times.

Courses tended to include a range of dishes, from our point of view: meat/
fish dishes, grains, vegetables, sweets.  In general, a feast tended to
have two or possibly three courses.  The progression was less from one
food type to another (salad to soup to meat to dessert) than from simple
and hearty to delicate and complex.  How that plays out depends on where
and when you are.  But throughout Europe, the overall pattern is that
early in the meal, everything goes to everybody; and as you move later, 
dishes (or sometimes even an entire course) may be restricted to people
above a certain status.

This view of meal structure did tend to place more sweet dishes late than
early, but primarily because sweet dishes are more highly represented among
the delicate and complex parts of most European cuisine than among the
simple and hearty ones, not because they were aiming toward some modern
sense of dessert.  Even the first course was likely to have a dish or two that
was relatively sweet; and even the last tended to have a largeish number
of savory and other non-sweet dishes.

This changes in the renaissance, as the final wafers-fruit-cheese-and-wine
expands into sweet banquets.  I'm not sure precisely when this happens; my
impression is that in England, it's roughly associated with the mid 16th
century.  (I'm sure it's no earlier than early 16th century.)

Hope this helps!

- -- Katerine/Terry


From: Debra Hense <debh at microware.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 10:01:14 -0500
Subject: SC - RE: sca-cooks V1 #117

I've made a start on studying menus as it applies to 14th century France. 
 My overall impressions are:

   The first course/platter would consist of several dishes (removes) that 
were spiced with appetite stimulating herbs and spices.

  The second course would consist of gross meats (ie: cheap meats - simply 
prepared (boiled or roasted)) with sauces and various vegetable dishes.

  The next course would consist of fancier dishes which involved more 
preparation steps and more expensive spices. If more than four courses - 
repeat the fancier dishes/more expensive spices theme for each additional 
course.

  The final course would consist of fruits, nuts, and hippocras (otherwise 
known as leisure food - sit back, relax, pick at the food, drink, talk, 
repeat until tired of sitting.)  8-)  ;-)  :-)

There seemed to be no fewer than four courses, and as many as 10 for 
special occasions and feast days. And each course has its own sweet served 
with it.

I don't have my sources here - but Tavaillent (sp?), Goodman of Paris, and 
le Menagier are my primary sources. Also, I have looked at some of the 
extant menus reproduced in Fabulous Feasts (which I bought for the menus 
and pictures - preferring for the most part to do my own redactions from 
primary reproductions such as Caridoc's Miscellaney).

As to how the cookbook should be sectioned.  I think Meat dishes, Dairy 
dishes, Vegetable Dishes, Sweets, would be good enough for me.  Let the 
person putting the feast together decide which course they want the recipe 
to reside in. Every cook is different.  Appetizers seemed to have had a 
whole different meaning in 14th C. France. Such as dishes using cumin, 
ginger, galingale, and cinnamon.

Kateryn de Develyn
debh at microware.com


Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 13:02:54 -0500
From: gfrose at cotton.vislab.olemiss.edu (Terry Nutter)
Subject: Re:  SC - test cooking

Hi, Katerine here.  Shirley asks how many dishes "are supposed" to be in
a course, what are "the rules" about what they should be, and what
additional dishes one might add to Lombardy Rice and a mushroom pasty
to make up a course.

None of these questions has a hard and fast answer.  Depending where and
when you were, typical meals had different numbers of courses, with 
different numbers of dishes in each.  And what dishes they combined how
also varied.

In 14th or 15th century England, a course seems to have had between five
and ten dishes (not counting bread, sauces, etc.).  In general, on a 
meat day, there would be at least one meat dish and typically more; and
the dishes would usually represent some sort of balance between savory
and sweet, and between mild and spicy.

Within those bounds, do as seems reasonable!

Cheers,
- -- Katerine/Terry


Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 01:42:50 -0500 (EST)
From: "Elizabeth O'Donovan" <odonoea4 at wfu.edu>
Subject: SC - Homework

Hmmm...just in time for the eating season: some inspiration from my
studies.

"Then the first course comes, with clamor of trumpets
That were bravely bedecked with bannerets bright,
With noise of new drums and the noble pipes.
Wild were the warbles that wakened that day
In strains that stirred many strong men's hearts.
There dainties were dealt out, dishes rare,
Choice fare to choose, on chargers so many
that scarce was there space to set before the people
The service of silver, with sundry meats,
			on cloth.
			Each fair guest freely there
			Partakes, and nothing loth;
			Twelve dishes before each pair;
 			Good beer (!!!) and bright wine both."

From _Sir Gawain and the Green Knight_, Marie Borroff, trans.
	W.W. Norton & Co. New York;1967.

All kinds of hedonistic pleasures...
Elizabeth


Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:30:04 -0500
From: Christi Redeker <Christi.Redeker at digital.com>
Subject: SC - Above the Salt

A few months ago, we had discussions on Above the salt feasts.  I am
currently reading "The Original Mediterranean Cuisine" by Barbara
Santich and she gives a quote I thought was interesting.

'Certain foods are more appropriate to the nobles and those who lead a
contemplative life,'

It goes on to list:

'and these are partridges and pheasants, chicken, capons, hares, kid and
rabbit, prepared in various ways; others are more appropriate to robust,
labouring types, and these include the meat of bulls and rams, salted
pork, peas and beans and coarse barley bread.'

So if you were a cook in these times (this is taken from a Latin text of
the late thirteenth century) what would you make for an "above the salt
course"  and then the "below the salt course" for a feast?

Murkial

Christi Redeker


Date: Sat, 17 Jan 98 12:25:51 PST
From: "Alderton, Philippa" <phlip at morganco.net>
Subject: SC - Fw: [Mid] Feasts:  Serving and Carving

Alys Katherine,

This was so well thought out, and in line with a recent discussion, that
I've forwarded it over to Cooks.

phlip at morganco.net

Never a horse that cain't be rode,
And never a rider that cain't be throwed.

:
: Greetings!  After several days of reading comments about
: feasts, I’d like to toss in this for consideration.  While some
: SCA cooks (feastocrats) will try using period recipes most
: of them don’t seem to research what period serving methods
: might have been like in the years/country the recipes are
: taken from.  Whole chickens (or any whole cut of meat) are
: one example.
:
: Even through the late 1400s and the “bokes of courtesy” it
: is noted that there are special rules for cutting and disjointing
: meats.  The feasters were not expected to “hack” up their
: own chickens as we in the SCA are expected.  One reference
: clearly states that a whole chicken is for the lord and that the
: lesser folk get only parts.  (Those at the “head table” were
: expected to send choice pieces of their larger dishes to people
: seated at lower tables, as a mark of favor from the lord.)  While
: general statements are rarely accurate, one might be safe saying
: that in the SCA time periods, no whole chickens should _ever_
: be served to any table other than the high table.  And, at high
: table, the carver should perform his magic.  It shouldn’t be the
: high table guests’ job to cut up their own chicken.
:
: While serving styles did change, for much of our (English) time
: frame foods were put in front of each two, or possibly four, diners
: who were then expected to eat from those dishes.  Our “family-
: style” meals, where one bowl is passed down the table, was
: probably not the norm.  Several people noted in recent posts that
: there were problems with the first feasters taking a lot of one
: dish, leaving little for the eighth or tenth person down the line.
: If one adapted medieval serving habits (as we are supposed to be
: doing) this would be minimized.
:
: We SCAers are doing a pretty good job of exploring the re-creation
: of all sorts of medieval arts, crafts, and combat.  Why is it that in
: cooking and serving we are content to present and serve food in
: a twentieth-century style?  There are primary sources available as
: well as good secondary sources.  It’s really nice to go to a feast
: where the presentation, serving, carving have all been done with an
: eye to re-creating that aspect of dining!
:
: Is there any interest in discussing how to make this part of a feast
: (carving and serving) more “medieval”?
:
: Alys Katharine
:
:
: From:  alysk at ix.netcom.com (Elise Fleming)


Date: Mon,  8 Jun 1998 15:03:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: Gretchen M Beck <grm+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: SC - (Fwd) Re: AL -Need data about food

Excerpts from internet.listserv.sca-cooks: 8-Jun-98 SC - (Fwd) Re: AL
- -Need dat.. "Phyllis Spurr" at tdh.stat (1209*)

> Hii everybody  I have been doing research on Balls and dancing and have
> discovered a new eating custom I haven't noticed before. It was called a
> Collation in France. It appears to be a sweet table but there is a
> mention of liqueurs being served at it.. This meal occurred after the
> dinner and in a separate room. My resources don't tell me more about this
> custom. Do you have any info on Collations? I would like to know what
> kind of sweets and cold food were served and how were they served. Did
> Collations take place in other areas and if they were called anything
> else.

In England, it's known as the Banquet course.

toodles, margaret


Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 07:19:47 -0500 (CDT)
From: alysk at ix.netcom.com (Elise Fleming)
Subject: SC - Re: Competitions

'Twas written:
>>3. I can "specialize" to some extent. Right now, I'm on a
>>candy-making kick. It's kinda hard to turn that into a complete
>>feast.

And Sianan replied:

>  Course you can.  Advertise it as a medieval candy-fest and I can
>guartunee that there would be a few bookings.

Actually, you could use a "period" term for the medieval candy-fest and
call it a "banquet".  Or "samples from a banquet".  In Tudor and Stuart
times the banquet was what we call the "dessert course" and contained
candies as well as numerous other items.  Markham, I believe, has a
listing of things necessary for a banquet.  These always included
marchpanes (as the center attraction), preserved and candied fruits,
seeds, sweetened "breads" such as biscuits (twice-cooked "cookies"),
etc.

Alys Katharine


Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 17:42:02 -0500 (CDT)
From: alysk at ix.netcom.com (Elise Fleming)
Subject: SC - Re: Course: was Sign-on Package?

Phlip wrote, in part:

>(snip) vs. the more Medieval/early period idea of making each
course or "remove" an entire meal in itself.

A "remove" referred to two dishes...one (usually a soup) that was put
in place and then "removed" and was replaced by another (frequently a
roast or a fish).

>Our modern 12 course meals are simple in each chronological
>presentation, and are expected to be finished in an hour or two- the
>early "feasts" were an entire day's eating, separated frequently by
>entertainments. I suspect this is the reason that early SCAdians
>used the term "remove" to differentiate between the two types of
meals.

>From what I can determine, the 20 to 30 dishes in a course were not
intended to be served to each person.  Some of the dishes were only for
the "high table" or the most important guests.  Others served lower
tables.  However, all the various dishes were listed for each course.
Also, depending on the era, the diners did not pass the dishes; at
least, they certainly didn't pass them very far.   Sometimes the dishes
were expected to feed the two,four, or so people sitting in a
particular area.  Other times it is implied that dishes were to be
passed, at least a little way.  There is a period story of a naive
young man come to the city.  He was faulted for gorging himself on the
delicacy placed before him because he didn't know how to reach the
other dishes.  Anyhow, people didn't appear to expect that they would
get something of every type of food that was served.

>I suggest we look at the degeneration the term "banquet" has suffered
>over the years, as a means of comparison. In its original usage,
>"banquet" implied a feast similar to the multi-course meals we moderns
>consider highly sophisticated.

In the Elizabethan and Tudor years, the "banquet" was the final course
of sweets, frequently served in a separate location from the dinner.
This was often a special room or set of rooms called a "banquetting
house".  There are banquetting houses on islands in  artificial lakes,
and even a drawing of one up on a secluded roof.  There is a very good
chapter about the evolution of "banquet" and "banquetting houses" in
the book _'Banquetting Stuffe'_, edited by C. Anne Wilson.  My
understanding is that the use of "banquet" for the sweet course
predated our use of it as a feast of multi-course meals.

Alys Katharine


Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 16:04:58 -0500 (CDT)
From: alysk at ix.netcom.com (Elise Fleming)
Subject: SC - Re: Course:  Was Sign-On Package?

Adamantius wrote:
>I seem to recall that the term "banquet" was indeed the final course
>of sweets (and was sometimes the sole food served, possibly at a ball
>of some kind), but that the term itself actually refers to the piece
>of furniture on which the sweet dishes were laid out: in English it is
>more or less equivalent to the sideboard (snip)

C. Anne Wilson writes "...the confusion goes back almost as far as the
time when the word 'banquet' entered the English language.  According
to the dictionaries, the French word 'banquet' derives from the Italian
'banchetto', which had originally meant a small bench or table but had
also taken on the additional sense of a magnificent meal - perhaps
initially a very special meal served to a few important people at a
small table...first appeared in print in the plural form of 'bankettis'
in Caxton's edition of the _Golden Legend_ published in 1483."  (pp
9-10)

"The word 'banquet' surfaces in direct relation to sweetmeats in the
early 1530s in conjunction with the banqueting house, and stays current
until around 1700." (p 37)

She doesn't mention, outside of the possible derivation from
"banchetto" that an banquet refers to a piece of furniture.  However, I
don't have an OED so I can't check to see if that is another possible
meaning.

Alys Katharine


Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 15:08:23 -0600
From: allilyn at juno.com (LYN M PARKINSON)
Subject: Re: SC - A plea for help with presentation

Bruegel's painting, _The Wedding Feast_. 1566-69, shows a Flemish peasant
wedding.  Men are carrying in the food on doors laid on hurdles.  We
don't see the underside; they may not be fixed hurdles, just heavy poles,
but there sould be less chance of slippage if the poles were fixed to a
cross member or two.  We can see it's a door because the hinges show.
Nine tartes lie on the door, and one man at a table is reaching out to
get one with his left hand, while his right hand passes another tarte
down the table.  Somewhere or other, I have seen Bacchus carried into a
feast or hall, reclining on a similar litter (of course, it was probably
Fantasia!) but what a great spectacle it could be to have a corpulent
shire member semi dressed as Bacchus, with vine leaves in his hair,
surrounded by mounds of greenery and grape clusters, followed by litter
bearers carrying the food.  It will probably take too long for each guest
to help himself, so the litters could contain table sized serving dishes.
 A shire member, with a gift of gab, could deliver a running patter to
entertain the guests while this is being done.

Also:   Wilson, C. Anne. (ed) THE APPETITE AND THE EYE. Edinburgh
University   Press. 1991. A collection of papers on the visual aspects of
food and   its presentation with their  historic context.  Not all are
medieval.

Maybe you can get that book on ILL.

Allison
allilyn at juno.com, Barony Marche of the Debatable Lands, Pittsburgh, PA
Kingdom of Aethelmearc


Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 20:23:14 -0800 (PST)
From: Laura C Minnick <lainie at gladstone.uoregon.edu>
Subject: Re: SC - Feast Service

On Sun, 8 Nov 1998, Christine A Seelye-King wrote:
> (BTW, I was referring to the Introduction letter
> just recently posted from a lady in ?An Tir? who said her most recent
> foray into period feasting included reseached folds in the tablecloths, I
> am still curious to hear more about that.)

Christina,
        I believe that was me, and there are several documents that
address the tablecloth issue. The one that I made most use of was from
Wynken de Worde's _Boke of Kervynge_ (15thc.). _For to Serve Lord_ also
has some passages about tablecloths, and a 'Fifteenth-Century Courtesy
Book' (bound with a fifteenth-century Franciscan rule by EETS). There's
quite a few books about how to serve one's lord, and most of them have
instructions on laying the table, as well as hand-washing (another thing
we did, with warm rose-water and special hand-towels and a polished silver
pitcher...). Reading these documents can be a bit of a pain, but if you
look in the reference section of a local college library, they are likely
to have a Middle English Dictionary- there are several. Let me know if you
have more questions.

'Lainie
- -
Laura C. Minnick
University of Oregon
Department of English


Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 08:39:32 -0500
From: capriest at cs.vassar.edu (Carolyn Priest-Dorman)
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Serving Ettiquette

Thorunn asked:
>I am seeking information on the proper etiquette of serving at feast. 

Here's a wonderful source.

_Early English Meals and Manners_, ed. Frederick J. Furnivall.  Early
English Text Society, Original Series 32.  London:  Kegan Paul, Trench,
Trubner & Co., 1868.

It contains the following works:  John Russell's Boke of nurture, Wynkyn de
Worde's Boke of keruynge, The boke of curtasye, R. Weste's Booke of
demeanor, Seager's Schoole of vertue, The babees book, Aristole's A B C,
Urbanitatis, Stans puer ad mensam, The lytylle childrenes lytil boke, For to
serve a lord, Old Symon, The birched school-boy, and some other stuff.  

The Boke of Kervynge is especially useful, as it is instructions to a page
on how to serve at table.  There are details about handling table coverings
and napkins, how to carve trenchers, etc., etc.  It also sets up an
elaborate Order of Precedence, from an emperor on down.  I was interested to
see that former Lords Mayor of London had a specific spot.  I wonder what
would happen if we tried to assure former Lords Mayor of Pennsic a spot in
the Order of Precedence? ;>

Carolyn Priest-Dorman              Thora Sharptooth
capriest  at  cs. vassar. edu         Frostahlid, Austrrik


Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 9:14:20 -0600
From: "I. Marc Carlson" <LIB_IMC at centum.utulsa.edu>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Serving Ettiquette

<capriest at cs.vassar.edu (Carolyn Priest-Dorman)>
>_Early English Meals and Manners_, ed. Frederick J. Furnivall.  Early
>English Text Society, Original Series 32.  London:  Kegan Paul, Trench,
>Trubner & Co., 1868.

An excellent suggestion.  Furnivall is a good example of the sort of "good"
Victorian scholarship you can find:  Compiling together a lot of hard to find
sources, and keeping all the conclusions separate...

As a bit of information, in case it matters to you and these aren't the 
periods you are looking for, Furnivall's compilation compiles:
The Babee's Boke is from a abt.1475 Manuscript.
Urbanitis - abt.1460
The lyylle childrenes lytil boke or edyllys be - abt 1480
The young children's book - abt 1500
Stans puer ad mensam - abt 1460
The book of curtesie that is called stans peur ad mensam - abt 1430
The manners to bring one to honour and welfare - n.d.
Take what you find or what you bring - n.d.
The reward of a man who beggars himself - n.d.
How the good wijf taugte her dougtir - abt 1430
How the wise man taugte his son - abt 1430
Recipes - c1480-1500
A diatorie - abt 1430
Dietarium - abt 1460
Recipes - c1430-40
(Hugh Rhodes) The boke of nurture, or schoole of good manners - 1577
(John Russells) The Boke of nurture following Englondis gise - c 1460-70
Wynkyn de Worde's Boke of keruynge - c1513
Book of Demeanor - 1619
Boke of curtasye - c1430-40
Schoole of Vertue - 1557

And a lengthy postscript full of other, not dated, bits.

Marc/Diarmaid


Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 10:14:18 CEST
From: Christina van Tets <cjvt at hotmail.com>
Subject: SC - adults only feast serving idea / Dutch (NL) book

Greetings the list (and especially our friends in Adamastor),
     Cairistiona and I have been somewhat quiet on the list of late, mostly
because she has rarely been near the computer and I have been lazy and rude.
  However, we came across a beautiful picture the other day that we thought
would amuse (perhaps even be useful to?) some members of the list.
    The picture that we discovered relates to an earlier list discussion on
methods of serving/presenting feasts.  It is a late 14th early 15th century
painting of a feast,  the mixed company (half male and half female) are
seated at their dinner, a king and a nobleman are about to enter the room
and they are being entertained by a musician accompanied by a small and
presumably noisy dog.  The feasters are seated in hot tubs - two feasters
per tub, seperated by a board laid over the top of the row of tubs on which
the food has been served.  Presumably as a result of the unusual form of
seating arrangement, the clothing of the guests is notable for its abscence.
  However, to preserve decency the ladies and most of the men are still
wearing the headgear and their jewellery (I presume the minstrel is playing
"you can leave your hat on" or some mediaeval equivalent).  The feasters are
very obviously enjoying both the company and the meal (read into that
sentence whatever you like).
     This form of feast may be a little decadent for routine SCA use but I
thought that the more debauched among you might find it useful and the
remainder either informative or amusing.
     I cannot remember the artist or the exact date of hand (if you are
interested I can send them to you).  We found it on the front cover of a
recent publication by Raymond van Uytven who is a cultural history lecturer
at the Catholic University of Leuven (De Zinnelijke Middeleeuwen, 50 Hfl in
the northern marches of Polderslot, 900 BEF here in the decadent south).
The book deals in detail with the way in which the affluent half of western
european society enjoyed life in the 11th to 15th century - clothing tastes,
food, drink, beauty, dance etc. all good SCA stuff.  However, it is in Dutch
so this one is primarily for Polderslotians (Particularly brave
Adamastorians who think they can handle this ridiculously over-complicated
version of Afrikaans may also wish to give it a try. 900 BEF is about R
180).  We bought it for ourselves as a reward for learning enough Flemish to
battle our way through it (and also because it looked like a fun way to
improve our vocab.).

<snip>

Jan van Seist (wickedly using Cairistiona's courier pigeons, heh heh)

Mev. C. J. van Tets
Bosstraat 195, B-3500 Hasselt, BELGIUM
(or: c/- Jhr. Dr. I. G. van Tets, Dept MBW,
Limburgs Universitair Centrum, Universitaire Campus,
B-3590 Diepenbeek, BELGIUM)


Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 08:16:05 -0400
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>
Subject: Re: SC - adults only feast serving idea / Dutch (NL) book

This sounds like the illustration which is found on page 106 of
_Fabulous Feasts_, in the chapter aptly entitled "Sex, Smut, Sin, and
Spirit".  (Whatever else one might say about FF, it is full of interesting
illustrations.)  According to the caption it is late 15th century German,
by the Master of the Housebook.  As for the debauchery.... let's just
say that at least two of the feasting couples have moved on to dessert,
and it definitely isn't cuskynoles.  :-)

Brighid


Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 23:01:50 -0500
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - questions

At 12:30 AM -0400 6/14/00, CBlackwill at aol.com wrote:
>I believe the "3 ounces of thrush in porre" was meant simply to illustrate
>the point that, while the number of dishes served at a banquet were, to our
>modern sensibilities, staggering, there is very little direct documentation
>to illuminate how "much" of each dish was served.

_Du Fait de Cuisine_ includes a shopping list, with quantities (see 
below), from which you can calculate roughly how much food was being 
produced; since it also provides a menu, you can get a rough idea of 
how much was in each dish.  My calculation was a total of about 
70,000 lbs (i.e. 35 tons) of boneless meat. That was for two meals a 
day for two days, and he doesn't say how many guests are expected.

- ---
And first: one hundred well-fattened cattle, one hundred and thirty 
sheep, also well fattened, one hundred and twenty pigs; and for each 
day during the feast, one hundred little piglets, both for roasting 
and for other needs, and sixty salted large well fattened pigs for 
larding and making soups.

And for this the butcher will be wise and well-advised if he is well 
supplied so that if it happens that the feast lasts longer than 
expected, one has promptly what is necessary; and also, if there are 
extras, do not butcher them so that nothing is wasted.

And there should be for each day of the feast two hundred kids and 
also lambs, one hundred calves, and two thousand head of poultry.

And you should have your poulterers, subtle, diligent, and wise, who 
have forty horses for going to various places to get venison, hares, 
conies, partridges, pheasants, small birds (those which they can get 
without number), river birds (those which one can obtain), pigeons, 
cranes, herons, and all wild birds - what one can find of whatever 
wild birds. And they should turn their attention to this two months 
or six weeks before the feast, and they should all have come or sent 
what they could obtain by three or four days before the said feast so 
that the said meat can be hung and each dealt with as it ought to be.

And they should provide for each day of the said feast six thousand eggs.
- ---
Note the small birds "without number." Note also that they are 
spending almost two months catching them; I don't know how they were 
preserved.

David/Cariadoc
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/


Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 16:53:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jenne Heise <jenne at tulgey.browser.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Re: Period Foods for Kids

> However, it's inclusion is just as OP as the idea of a separate children's 
> feast is. Rather, such separate service of children is likely period but the 
> idea of a menu specially prepared for them is not, SFAIK. 

Actually, from what I can determine, children were generally fed
separately, and their food was usually prepared by someone else, or
included food prepared by someone else, rather than sent up from the main
kitchen. Therefore, the food menu would probably be different. Whether
there were separate feasts or not on occasion for young children I don't
know, but I seep to recall references to special dinners for parties of
noble children to entertain royal chidlren on special occasions. 

Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise	      jenne at tulgey.browser.net


Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 10:45:45 -0500
From: harper at idt.net
Subject: SC - Trenchers and alms

Connected to the recent discussion on trenchers...

I was browsing in the online "Corpus of Middle English Prose and Verse," 
and I came across a 15th centruy serving manual.  It goes into great detail 
about "voiders" -- the dishes which were used to transfer scraps and 
leftovers to the alms vessel in the kitchen.  After every course, the squires 
and other attendents gather up the trenchers, as well as broken breads and 
broken meats, and put them in voiders.  Also, the almoner goes up to the 
lord's table and takes "of dyuerse metes as it may goodly be forborne 
and augment ther wyth the almes dyshe, and all this in the lordes 
presence".
So not only were the trenchers *not* eaten by the feasters, but partial 
loaves of bread were also taken away and replaced with whole ones at 
the beginning of each course.

The URL for the serving manual is:
http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/c/cme/cme-
idx?type=HTML&rgn=TEI.2&byte=11992541
Sorry, my mail program insists on wrapping that line.  If that doesn't work, 
try the main page at:
http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/c/cme/cme-idx

The same site also contains the Two Fifteenth Century Cookbooks.  All the 
texts on the site can be searched, so you can look for all the occurences of 
"garleke" or "canel".

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain
Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)


Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 23:54:01 -0600
From: Ted Eisenstein <alban at delphi.com>
Subject: SC - late feasts!

I've just finished going over a piece written soon after the coronation
of Richard III that goes into, among other things, the coronation banquet.
The author noted that the third course was served so late that all they
had time for was hippocras and wafers. . . 

It's nice to know that even when Things Are Massively Delayed for us, at least
they're also period. <grin>

Alban


Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 19:56:33 -0600From: "Elise Fleming" <alysk at ix.netcom.com>Subject: SC - Re: Serving Whole ChickensStefan wrote:>Did medieval feasts have carvers for each table? Or just the head table?My impression is that whole birds were usually reserved to the high tableand were carved in front of the lord before being served.  Lower tables, itseems to me, received pieces-parts.  IIRC, one source mentions a whole birdfor the lord and some smaller portion for the second lower table.  Thenthere was some form of chopped up bird for the rest of the folk.  Does thatfit with anyone else's recollection? Alys Katharine

From: "Hrolf Douglasson" <Hrolf at btinternet.com>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] some questions from cooks guild
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 23:05:59 +0100

> Did men and women usually eat together?  Same meal? Same time?  Same
> table?

In norman times yes , providing that they were all of the sameish rank.
Viking women did eat at the same time

> Did children eat at the table with adults?  (The first picture that I
> can find of children at the table is a family scene from the Tudor
> period - the Thomas Cromwell family, I think.)

 Depends on the circumstances.....for family meals yes for banquets no

> Did people usually sit on both sides of the table or on only one side?
> Was this related to rank?  Was depicting people on only one side of the
> table an artistic convention?

One side only....normally the inside of the table was for seving

> Was there REALLY a "below" and "above" the salt?  This is a persistent
> belief - but was it real?  Anyone have documentation?

Yes lots of documentation especially about lifting above the salt
Start with chaucer

VARA


From: "a5foil" <a5foil at ix.netcom.com>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] some questions from cooks guild
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 22:09:20 -0400

Regarding Catalan manners of the 15th century, as observed by Francesc
Eiximenis in his work "Lo Crestia". This work is his commentary on the
various sins, among them gluttony, and reveals something of common table
behavior. There is also a collection of his observations on table manners in
a book called "Com se beure be e menyar" (loosely, "How to drink well and to
eat"), but I haven't located a copy of that, yet.

> Did men and women usually eat together?  Same meal? Same time?  Same
> table?

Yes, they did eat together, same meal, same time, same table, at least
enough of the time that it wasn't referred to as an unusual practice. It
appears that married couples sometimes shared a plate. Unmarried couples
were not supposed to share. Parents and children were not supposed to share.
Siblings and other children were not supposed to share plates.

> Did children eat at the table with adults?  (The first picture that I
> can find of children at the table is a family scene from the Tudor
> period - the Thomas Cromwell family, I think.)

At least some of the time, they did, but I don't know whether this was a
commoner's table or a noble's. I have seen no pictures including children.

> Did people usually sit on both sides of the table or on only one side?
> Was this related to rank?  Was depicting people on only one side of the
> table an artistic convention?

In one of my books of medieval artwork from the National Museum of Art of
Catalunya, I see tables with settings on both sides, but people arrayed only
on the far side, facing the painter. I suspect it depended on a number of
factors, including where and when you are, the formality of the meal, the
size of the hall, and the status of those dining. At least in the pictures,
there does seem to be some association with rank where seating is concerned.
Artistic convention cannot be ruled out.

> Was there REALLY a "below" and "above" the salt?  This is a persistent
> belief - but was it real?  Anyone have documentation?

At least in the early 14th century, if we accept the original publication
year of the Libre de Sent Sovi as 1323-24, there are instructions to serve
spices at table, for the diners to add to their dishes beyond the seasoning
done in the kitchen prior to service. Eiximenis reminds readers that salt
should never be picked up with one's fingers, but lifted from one's salt
bowl with the blade of one's knife, and piled at the edge of one's plate,
where food could be dipped into it. While this implies multiple salt bowls,
I find no reference one way or another for the above/below thing. Given that
the recipes explicitly direct to provide spices to those dining, for them to
use on their meal, I suspect salt was not restricted in that way. I could be
wrong, though.

Thomas Longshanks


From: Druighad at aol.com
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 09:52:52 EDT
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Seating and rank..
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Seating at meals was done by rank. the higher you were at the lord's
table/dais for example, indicated your importance. The farther one was from
the high table, the less important. Merchants were generally placed near the
ends, unless they were Guild Masters, then near the center, but below the
nobles. Visiting nobles were always placed near the Lord & Lady of the Keep,
as a sign of respect, regardless of rank, and so news could be more easily
shared without shouting across the room or down the tables. That was
considered to be vulgar, and suited only for the commoners.

Castle servants gerenally didn't eat with the guests, but it depended on the
particular rules of the keep. Some nobles let their servants, but not
servers, eat in the Great hall, but at tables away from the High tables,
where the dignitaries sat.

Never heard of above or below the salt though, unless it refers to noble, or
peasant birth.

Finnebhir


Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 01:35:35 -0500
From: Stefan li Rous <stefan at texas.net>
To: SCA-Cooks maillist <SCA-Cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] delayed feasts are period

In reading "People of the First Crusade" by Michael Foss, I came across
this statement, which some of you can probably relate to:

p 193
The Crusaders had just captured Jerusalem and they are trying to figure
out who should rule it. It is between Count Raymond of St Gilles and
Duke Godrey of Bouillon.

"When the electors took secret soundings within the army to assess the
character of the candidates, Godfrey's own household, according to
William of Tyre, could find only one fault with their master:

Once he had entered a church he could not be made to leave, even at
the end of celebration of the divine office. He continued to question
priests and clergy as to the meaning of each image and picture until
his companions, who had no interest in these things, were exceedingly
bored. Moreover, because of this habit, the meats prepared for a fixed
hour were overdone and tasteless when finally eaten, as a result of
the long delay."

So remember, when that long court threatens to ruin the feast that
you have been slaving over for hours, that this is period....

Stefan
--
THLord  Stefan li Rous    Barony of Bryn Gwlad    Kingdom of Ansteorra
Mark S. Harris             Austin, Texas         stefan at texas.net


From: "Dan Phelps" <phelpsd at gate.net>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 21:57:25 -0800
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Food Quote of Interest

From "The Description of England", by William Harrison, 1587, Edited by
Georges Edelen

VI. Of Food and Diet of the English

A snippet regards the feasts of merchants:

"To be short, at such times as the merchants do make their ordinary or
voluntary feasts, it is a world to see what provision is made of all manner
of delicate meats from every quarter of the country, wherein, beside that
they are often comparable herein to the nobility of the land, they will
seldom regard anything the butcher usually killeth, but reject the same as
not worthy to come in place.  In such cases geliffes (jellies?) of all
colors, mixed with a variety in the representation of sundry flowers, herbs,
trees, forms of beasts, fish, fowls, and fruits, and thereunto marchpane
wrought with no small curiosity, tarts of divers hues and sundry
denominations, conserves of old fruits, foreign and homebred, suckets,
codiniacs, marmalades, marchpane, sugarbread, gingerbread, florentines, wild
fowl, venison of all sorts, and sundry outlandish confections, altogether
seasoned with sugar (which Pliny callth mel ex arrundinibus, a device not
common nor greatly used in old time at the table but only in medicine,
although it grew in Arabia, India, and Sicily), do generally bear sway,
besides infinite devices of our own not possible for me to remember.   Of
the potato and other venerous roots as are brought out of Spain, Portingale,
and the Indies to furnish up our banquets, I speak not, wherein our mures,
of no less force and to be had about Crosby Ravensworth, do now begin to
have place."

Daniel Raoul 


Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 15:55:23 -0500
From: "Barbara Benson" <vox8 at mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] French table Serice and Web site
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> Kiri
> I read French very poorly...it's been a VERY long time since I
studied it (bck in college in the very early 60's).  But from what I could
determine, it looks like there is some good information there.  I especially
would love to have a translation of the initial passage you refer to...I
believe that Scully referenced it in hi discussion of how kitchens are  
run in his "Early French Cookery".

Greetings,
I went and checked, and it seems that the portion of the site that is
available in English is less than 1/3 of what is in French. I looked to see
if they provided an Englis translation of the passage and they do not. So,
here is what is in my book:

"When the lord arrives at the banquet hall and takes his seat the steward
calls the cup-bearer, who leaves the table and goes to the sideboard. There
he finds the receptaces that the butler or yeoman of the cellar has
prepared; he takes them, rinses them with water and returns them. Once this
has been done, the cup-bearer takes a cup and looks at the lord, and he must
do it so attentively that the lord need only nod inorder to ask for more
wine. Once the nod has been given, the cup-bearer takes the cup in his hand,
and a bowl, and raises the cup so that his breath does not reach it. The
marshal of the hall lets him pass and when the butler sees him coming, he
fils a ewer with fresh water, and rinses the cup that the cup-bearer
brings, both inside and out. He then takes a bowl in his left hand and a jug
in the right, and pours wine first into the bowl that he himself holds, and
then into the cup that the cup-barer holds. He then takes the ewer and
pours water into the bowl, and then adjusts the wine that is in the cup,
according to his expertise and what he knows of the tastes of the lord and
his disposition. Once the wine has been decanted, the cup-bearer purs wine
from the cup into the bowl that he is holding and covers the cup, holding
the lid of the cup between the two little fingers of the hand with which he
holds the bowl, until he has covered the cup and given what he poured into
the bowl to the butler, who has to taste it in front of him. After that, the
cup-bearer takes the cup to the lord and uncovers it, pours wine into the
bowl, covers the cup again and tastes the wine. When the lord puts forth his
hand, the cup-bearer gives him the uncovered cup and holds the bowl beneath
the cup until the lord has finished drinking."

The book also provides an additional small quote from the same text:
"...the lord's jug should be distinguished by the pieces of unicorn horn
hanging from a cord."
Ad the author goes on to speculate that the strange 't' shaped pieces
attached to both the cup-bearer's pouch and the carver's pouch in the Tres
Riches Heurs miniature are unicorn horn pieces. Unicorn horn being  
Believed to turn black in the presence o poison.

I thought it was interesting.
Glad Tidings,
Serena


Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 21:1:09 -0500
From: "vicki shaw" <vhsjvs at gis.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] French table Service and Web site - xlation part
	one
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Here is a quick xlation of the first paragraph under the heading Le Service du vin selon Olivier de la Marche

The Wine Service according to.....

In the framework of the gand courts of time - and specifically to the Court
of Bourgogne - there developed a literature whose goal to meticulously
regulate the organization of feasts, the succession of courses, and the
services (probably here it means the dishes, the cutlery, te glassware,
etc).  The most famous treatise was written Olivier de la Marche:  it is the
state of the House of the duke Charles de Bourgogne said the Daring and also
The Foolhardy.
As Maitre D, de la Marche is not only responsible for advising the kitchens
of the dishes his master desires to have at his table, but also to organize
the meals to his satisfaction.

The wine service is ensured by the Echanson (could not find a xlation for
this word; probably the person responsible for the wine cellar or something
like that) who mainly sees to the mixing of wine to water according to the
preference (or taste) of the prince.
The seating is choreographed by the Maitre D like a ballet, where each
[guest], according to his rank, his place and his funcion is placed.

Ok, that's it for the first para.  More tomorrow
vicki

Angharad ferch Iorwerth; MKA Vicki Shaw
Barony Beyond the Mountain
East Kingdom


Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 02:36:25 +0000
From: ekoogler1 at comcast.net
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] French table Service and Web site - xlation
	art one
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

This is great.  I know that there are other descriptions, but this one  
is one that I had found paraphrased and a small quote in the Scully  
wor...and had used what I found in an article I wrote on 14th c.  
kitchens, etc.  This person was highly placed in the household of the  
Duke of Normandy, I think...and his diary entry on this matter is very  
useful.  It really will be far better to refernce the diary directly  
(closer to a primary source, even if it is a translation) than to use  
the reference from another book.

I look forward to reading the remainder of it!

Kiri (I know...what's a Japanese doing writing about European  
kitchens....

> Well, i jsut could not resist!  I had to start the translation.  Here  
> is a
> quick xlation of the first paragraph under the heading Le Service du  
> vin
> selon Olivier de la Marche
>
> The Wine Service according to.....


Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 21:55:46 -0500
From: "vicki shaw" <vhsjvs at gis.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fench table Service and Web site - xlation
	part two
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

That last thing came out kinda weird.  Sorry about tat long list of
words...anyway, here is paragraph two.  I have put in brackets some words to
clarify or suggest a better or alternate word..  There is one bracketed
sentence that is part of the text, however, but it is more than one 
word, so you will reognize it.

I will use the french words for
echanson = wine waiter
sommelier = wine boss (lol!) cause the dictionary def i found says sommelier
is wine waiter, but the document I found said echanson was wine waiter.
From the context, I think the echansn is below the sommelier, but I 
 could be wrong.

Now, they mention the garde-linge and xlated word for word this would be the
person responsible for laundry, but in this context it would appear this is
the person who holds the keys to the room where pots and pans and ewers and
drinking vessels and whatall....so I will use that word as well.

The text also keeps using the word pot and distinguishes it from ewer, so I
had to stick with pot where it said pot and ewer where it said ewer
(aiguillere).  Okay here goes:

"When the table is set and the baker has done his job [part], the hall
bailiff goes to fetch the echanson appointed to wait that day, in his
echansonnerie [wine office?].  There the garde-linge hands the covered
goblet which the echanson takes by its foot [base] in his right hand, and in
his left hand he holds a cup; [at the same time as he hands the goblet and
the cup, the garde-linge gives] basins, pots and ewers for the prince, to
the sommelier who washes and dries [them].  The sommelir gives the goblet
to the echanson who stands behind the hall bailiff who carries the basins in
his left hand.  Behind the echanson follows the sommelier of the
echansonnerie who must carry in his right hand two silver pots, one
containing the wine for the prince, and the other water.  The prince's pot
is recognized by a the figure of a unicorn [carved?  metal?] dangling from a
chain.  The sommelier must carry in his left hand a cup and nothing more,
and in this cup must rest [lying, not standing] the ewer for serving water.
This cup which the sommelier carries serves to do the trial [test] which the
echanson performs.  After the sommelier comes the aide who must then carry
the pots and cups to the prince's buffet [feast]"

Heavens to Murgatroyd, suh complicated protocol!  Hope you can make sense
of it.

vicki


Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 12:51:03 -0500
From: "vicki shaw" <vhsjvs at gis.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] French table Service and Web site
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Here is the next installment:

"The prince arrived, and the plate proferred, the Maitre D calls upon the
cup bearer (echanson), and so the cup bearer leaves the table, goes to the
buffet and locates the covered basins which the sommelier had prepared; he
takes them and performs [presents?] the water trial to the sommelier, kneels
before the prince, raises the basin which he proceeds to open with his left
hand, and pours water from the other basin over the edge of this one and
does proof and trial, and gives to wash from one of the basins and receives
water in the other.  Without covering the basins, he hands them to the
sommelier.  This done, the cupbearer places himself before [in front of] the
gobelet and looks upon the prince, and he should be so attentive that with
the subtlest sign [look], the prince can let it be known he desires 
wine"

Vicki

Angharad ferch Iorwerth; MKA Vicki Shaw
Barony Beyond the Mountain
East Kingdom
vhsjvs at gis.net


Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 19:02:12 -0500
From: "vicki shaw" <vhsjvs at gis.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] French table Service and Web site
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

This does not mean that the prince is instantly served since the cup bearer,
once he has received the signal, takes the goblet in his hand and the cup
and must hold the goblet raised high so his breath does not come in contact
with it [pollute].  The hall bailiff opens the way for him and when the
sommelier sees him coming, he fills his ewer with fresh water and refreshes
the goblet in the hand of the cup bearred both inside and out, then takes a
cup in the left hand and the mouth pot [?] in the right hand, and first
pours into the cup he is holding, and then into the goblet, and then takes
the ewer and pours into the cup he is holding, an dthen into the goblet an
dthen takes the ewer and pours into the cup and then dilutes [??] the wine
into the goblet, according to his knowledge of the prince's taste
[preference] and his tolerance.

The wine watered, the cup bearer pours from his goblet into the cup he is
holding, covers the goblet once again - and he must hold the lid between the
two small fingers of the hand with which he holds the cup until he has
covered the goblet again, and given what he has poured in his cup to the
sommelier; and places in his own, and then the sommelier must perform the
trial [tasting] in front of him.  Thus the cup bearer brings the globlet to
the prince, uncovers the goblet and puts wine in his cup and then covers the
goblet again, and does his test [tastes the wine].  When the prince extends
his hand, the cup bearer hands him the uncovered goblet and places the cup
under the goblet until the prince has drunk."

Angharad ferch Iorwerth; MKA Vicki Shaw
Barony Beyond the Mountain
East Kingdom
vhsjvs at gis.net
www.omygoddess.biz


Date: Tue, 01 Jun 2004 22:37:22 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] German Feast Formats
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Barbara Benson wrote:
>I wish to branch out
> a bit and find out more about the German Feast presentation and
> formats that were common (or not so common). snipped
> The caveat is that I do not read German. I would like to plan a 16th century
> German Feast with as much in the way of entrements and presentation as
> possible to work out while remaining as authentic as possible within
> reason.

German sources certainly exist; the only problem is that a great deal
of the German material hasn't been translated. One major name is Dr.
Trude Ehlert
whose home page is here:
http://www.uni-wuerzburg.de/germanistik/alt/ehlert.htm
She's the author of  Das Kochbuch des Mittelalters.
You might want to start with the chapter on medieval Germany in Regional
Cuisines
of Medieval Europe, edited by Adamson. Adamson's essay on Germany does
mention the work
of Thomas Gloning.His homepage is
http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~gloning/kobu.htm

Albala's chapter in Food in Early Modern
Europe is short and concentrates on pointing out that Germany is a
modern concept.
The political states and regions that spoke German varied a great deal
and ranged from
Vienna to Saxony to Brandenburg.
If I can think of an easy way to do this, I will let you know. Perhaps a
travel account
or a court account written in English might be the way to go. Say a
contemporary
account in English.
I'll see if I can find something tomorrow.

Johnnae


Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 20:03:54 -0700
From: "Wanda Pease" <wandap at hevanet.com>
Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] German Feast Formats
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

I'm not sure if this would be of help/interest to anyone but I got a book
from a German exhibition on tableware/service in the Kronprinzepalais, 29
November 2002 to 11 March 2003:  Sorry, no ISBN number, but it might still
be available from the Deutsches Historisches Museum.

It is Die Offentliche Tafel - Tafelzeremoniell in Europa 1300-1900.
Herausgegeben von Hans Ottomeyer und Michaela Voelkel, Deutsches
Historisches Museum.   There are many pictures and engravings of banquets,
food service, and tableware.  There is probably a great deal about both in
writing as well.  Unfortunately I only buy books in German, I don't read
them (grin).  I buy them for the pictures.

Regina Romsey


Date: 2 Jun 2004 07:07:35 -0000
From: "Volker Bach" <bachv at paganet.de>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] German Feast Formats
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

On Tue, 1 Jun 2004 18:45:08 -0400, "Barbara Benson" <vox8 at mindspring.com>
wrote :
> I have become very involved in German Cookery, and now I wish to branch out
> a bit and find out more about the German Feast presentation and formats that
> were common (or not so common). Now, I know exactly where to look for this
> information on French, Italian and English, but I was hoping that some good
> gentles on this list might be able to point me in the approprite
> direction(s) for sources for German.
>
> The caveat is that I do not read German. I would like to plan a 16th century
> German Feast with as much in the way of entrements and presentation as
> possible to work out while remaining as authentic as possible within reason.

Your first point of interest would be Marx Rumpoldt's 1581 "New Kochbuch"
which gives a collection of banquets suitable for IIRC emperors, kings,
electors, archdukes, dukes, counts, gentlemen, burghesses, and peasants
(the last seems a wee bit facetious). The usual format is three courses of
various mixed meats and side dishes, followed by a fruit course augmented
with various sweet bakes goods. There are woodcuts in the 1581 edition
(available in facsimile through ILL, if you're lucky. The ISBN is 3-487-
08112-1), but they are of limited value as they seem an eclectic mix
selected more for general theme than specific appropriateness. Being
german, I never bothered to translate much of it, but Gwen Cat has an
ongoing translation projection the web and may already have done the
banquets.

From the impression I get,. presentation pieces do not seem to have been
that important in medieval Renaissance cuisine. There were usually things
like beast-shaped pastries (chicken pastries shaped like chickens, fish
like fish etc.) and often you see the head of a boar (presumably with
gilded tusks and egg eyes), but the pictures I know of normally show rich
tableware filled to overflowing with pretty food rather than artful 
deceit.

Museum collections often have things like golden saltcellars, fruit 
bowls etc. from the 16th century.

One trick that was popular at least into the 16th century was the 'fire-
breathing boar head'. The boar's head has a bowl or boll of wool soaked in
spirits placed in its mouth which is lit. the server then blows through a
hidden tube to make flames billow out of the mouth.

Several recipes for chicklen-in-a-jar survive, the aim of which is to have
a cooked, deboned chicken served in a glass jar with the head sticking out
the opening.

The 'Kuechenmaistrey' lists a method for gilding cookies and I distinctly
recall having read something about letter-shaped fritters, though I don't
know where off the top of my head.

Rumpoldt also lists two recipes that might interest you for the dessert
course: a beaker-shaped cake and a heraldic pastry:

Mach ein Teig an mit Milch / Eyern / und schoenem weissen Mehl / thu
ein wenig Bierhefen darein / un mach einen guten Teig / der nicht gar
steiff ist / unnd versaltz jn nicht / setz jn zu der waerm / daß er fein
auffgehet / ...

Make dough with milk, eggs, and good white flour, and add a little brewing
yeast. Do not make it too stiff and do not oversalt it. Leave it to rise in
a warm place ...

Nimm ein newen Krug / schmier jn innwendig wol mit zerlassener Butter /
thu einen solchen Teig darein / daß der Krug halb davon voll wirt / und
wenn er auffgelauffen / daß er voll ist / so scheubs in heissen Ofen / und
laß backen / thu jn herauß /  und laß jn kalt werden / zerschlag den Krug /
unnd thu die Schifer davon hinweg / unnd gibs fein ganz auff Tisch / so
sihet es wie ein Krug.

Take a new pot, grease its insides with melted butter, then take of such a
dough (as described in a previous recipe) and fill it half full. When it
has risen to fill the pot entirely, place it in a hot oven and bake it.
Then take it out, cool it, and break the pot. Remove the shards and serve,
and it will look like a pot.
(Rumpoldt, Gebackens)

Redaction:

2 eggs
1 cup milk
2 1/2 - 3 cups flour
1/2 cup raisins
1 sachet dry yeast

Break the eggs into a bowl and beat. Dissolve the dry yeast in the milk and
slowly add to the eggs. Add flour by the spoonful until a thick paste
results. Stir in the raisins. Leave to rise in a warm spot until roughly
doubled in size. If you're feeling generous, by all means use the crockpot
method, but the dough can equally well be baked in a simple buttered 
cake pan.

  HERALDIC APPLE CRUST
(Marx Rumpoldt)
Nim ein Turten Teig / treib in duenn auß / unnd beschneidt ihn rundt / wie
ein Adler oder wie ein Hertz / mach ein Kräntzlein rundt herumb / scheubs
in Ofen und backs / thu es wider herauß / und nimm gebratene Epffel / duie
durch ein Härin Tuch gestrichen / und fein mit Zimmet und Zucker angemacht
seyn / streich uber den gebacken Teig / bestraew es mit kleinem Confect /
und gibs zum Obst kalt auff ein Tisch.

Take pie crust, roll it out thinly and trim it all around into the shape of
an eagle or a heart. Make a wreath (or edge) all around, place it in the
oven and bake it. Take it out again, take roast apples passed through a
hair sieve and seasoned with sugar and cinnamon, and spread that on the
baked crust. Sprinkle it with small confits. Serve cold with fruit.

1/2 lb flour
1/4 lb butter
water
salt
1-2 cups apple puree
sugar
cinnamon
confits

Work the butter into the flour, then make into a soft dough with water (or
egg, to make it richer). Roll out on aboard and trim into any desired
shape. Use trimmings to build a raised edge around the bottom. Bake at 175°
C until slightly browned, then remove from oven and cool. Season apple
puree with sugar and cinnamon to taste and spread over cooled crust.
Sprinkle with confits and serve.

I am tempted to play around heraldically with various jams and jellies.

Giano


Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:04:15 -0800
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Sca-cooks Digest, Vol 18, Issue 71
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Cadoc wrote:
> Dunno, I am starting to be of the opinion that unless the group
> hosting the event
> wants a huge mucking feast, then we should make a single remove with 
> desser.
>
> I was inspired by Elizabeth's smaller feast.  It means two things,
> less of the night
> is taken up by the feast, and you hold your eater's attention with
> fewer dishes that
> you can put more time and effort into, instead of being in a hurry to  make two
> or even three removes.

...

> But from working many feasts over the years, I have seen that most people
> lose interest in the feast after the first remove.  The long and short of it is that
> a smaller feast allows you to focus your attntion on just that remove, and
> dessert (ok, two removes if you count dessert, gotta have dessert!), and it
> should serve to help keep the costs down for the event, so more people are
> able to be on-board and enjoy period based foods.

Master hiquart (1420), discussing a feast given by his master the
Duke of Savoy to the Duke of Burgundy, describes two courses (fancy
dishes, fancyentremets) and then says:

"And if you want to serve a third course I will find enough from
which to make it, however I advise that that would be extremely long."

So there is some period precedent for that attitude.

Elizabeth/Betty Cook


Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 19:42:57 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] How meals are served in period
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

The item at time service is commonly associated with German feasts, but I
suspect it may have had wider use, especially in earlier times.  Serving a
single dish or a small group of related dishes would work better with a
feast of long duration than the large courses.

The three course multi-dish meal served over a realtively short period is a
practice that appears to have been made popular by the dinners held by
Catherine de Medici.

Bear

> I've been curious about how meals are served in period. I've always been
> told that it was served in courses/removes, with each being a miniature
> meal in itself.
>
> Was this always done?
>
> Recently I noticed a feast that was served apparently an item at a time,
> not in "courses/removes" and was done really really well.
>
> Is there a document somewhere that describes a _simple_ meal? (I tend to
> doubt that because why would anyone write about a meal that wasn't 
> unusual in some sense?)
>
> I'm trying to plan a meal that the event steward has asked be themed in
> late period Italian, so that will play a part in it too. (I've been
> reading "The Stars Dispose" and "The Stars Compel" and getting lots of
> inspiration from their interpretations of Apicius).
>
> Maggie MacD.


Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 10:59:57 -0500
From: Robert Downie <rdownie at mts.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Research question
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

The Batty Bard wrote:
>      I was wondering if perhaps anyone knew if there was any  
> documentation on the wedding feast of Charles the Bold and Margaret  
> of York.  I keep finding all these vague references to this lavish  
> banquet, but nothing specific.  Any help and/or advice would be  
> greatly appreciated.
>
>      In Service,
>      -Gracia Esperanca de Sevilla

There are some references in Roy Strong's _Feast a History of Grand  
Eating_:

... the creation of elaborate temporary decor for great banquets.  This
could take the form of either a mise-en-scene superimposed on to an
existing hall, or the creation of a special room for the occasion.  When
Phillip the good married Isabella of Portugal in 1430, the courtyard was
transformed into a banqueting hall complete with a minstrels' gallery
for sixty, a stag and a unicorn pouting rosewater and hippocras, and
golden trees supporting  the arms of the lands over which the Duke  
ruled.

Almost four decades later, in 1468, this arrangement was repeated when
Charles the Bold married Margaret of York, but with the addition of a
gallery from which the ladies could observe the feast.  The ceiling was
of blue silk, the walls appropriately hung with the story of Gideon and
the fleece, and both behind and above the high table there was a rich
length of grey cloth of gold embroidered with the ducal arms.

... THe drive towards making the state banquet into a political tableau
may have reached its apogee in the festivals that marked the marriage of
Charles the Bold to the Yorkist princess, Margaret of York, in 1468.
Two feasts on that occasion attempted dynastic apotheosis by means of
metamorphosed food.  On the first occasion guests entered to find
fifteen guilded and six silver swans, each wearing a collar of the Order
of the Golden Fleece and the arms of an individual knights.  The table
was further populated with an array of elephants bearing castles, camels
with panniers, stags and unicorns all in gold, silver and azure, filled
with sweetmeats. Each figure carried a banner with the arms of a
province of the duke.  A few days later there was a rerun in a final
banquet.  This time the tables were laden with 30 plates, each bearing
minitaure gardens bounded by golden hedges.  n the middle of the hall
rose a golden tree with meats piled up around it; the tree itself was
decked with fruits and flowers and the arms of thirty abbeys in the
ducal domains.  Close to where the duke was seated stood a model palace
enlivened with mechanical figures and a fountain that spurted rosewater
as if it were watering the miniature garden. ... It is difficult to
establish whether these subtleties were edible, but they were certainly
made to place on the dining table.

----

I've seen more complete descriptions of other banquets, but not for this
one yet (but I'm still researching, so maybe I'l find more eventually).
If you're interested in learning more about subtleties in general, this
group may be helpful:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SCA_Subtleties/

Faerisa


Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2006 17:38:04 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Research question
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

>      I was wondering if perhaps anyone knew if there was any  
> documentation on the wedding feast of Charles the Bold and Margaret  
> of Yok.  I keep finding all these vague references to this lavish  
> banquet, but nothing specific.  Any help and/or advice would be  
> greatly appreciated.      In Service,
>      -Gracia Esperanca de Sevilla

Playing librarian--
Strong's sources for the passages that Baroness Faerisa quoted from are
taken from the Memoirs of Olivier de la Marche who was a courtier in Burgundy.
Titled Mémoires dâ™Olivier de La Marche, maiÌ‚tre d’hoÌ‚tel et capitaine des gardes de Charles le Téméraire when they were
published in the 1880's, they were first printed in 1562. The New Catholic
Encyclopedia (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11246a.htm) writes that
"The author is sincere, but his style contains many Wallonne expressions
and, as in his other writings,
he introduces too many descriptions of fêtes and tournaments. Most of
his works are in verse."

Just what we want-- actual descriptions of fetes ad tournaments.
His heading is La Marche, Olivier de, ca. 1426-1502 in case you want to
search for him in catalogs.


   Have you looked at

Margaret of York, Duchess of Burgundy, 1446-1503 / Christine Weightman.
Published/Created: 	New York : St. Martinâ€s Press, 1989.

There's this--  Wikipedia writes
Her marriage to Charles the Bold at Bruges, on July 9th, 1468, ...The
wedding was extravagant even by the standards of the Burgundian court,
the most opulent and cultured court of the day. The celebrations
ncluded the "Tournament of the Golden Tree" that was arranged around an
elaborately detailed allegory, designed to honor the bride. During the
wedding, Margaret wore a magnificent crown ...it can still be seen in
the treasury at Aachen
Cathedral. The paraes, the streets lined with tapestry hung from
houses, the feasting, the masques and allegorical entertainments, the
jewels, impressed all observers as the marriage of the century. It is
annually reenacted at Bruges for tourists.

have you tried searching n that title-- Tournament of the Golden Tree

Museum event--
http://www.mechelen2005.be/ennew/detail.asp?id=53

There is a book--
http://www.artbooks.com/titles/046/Item46354.htm
http://www.oxbowbooks.com/bookinfo.cfm/ID/60431

You might try and interlibrry loan a copy and see what it has.

I will check a couple of other books and see what else I have.

Johnnae


Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2006 21:49:32 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period description of "events"
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

If you have academic access, then there's EEBO of course
and all the accounts that can be found in there.

Otherwise you might want to start with Roy Strong.
Feast is entertaining. So is Charlemagne's Tablecloth by Fletcher.
Eat, Drink, & Be Merry by Ivan Day is another. Also Apples of Gold in Settings
of Silver by Young. They all offer bibliographies. Take their sources
and go from there.

The Banquet: Dining in the Great Courts of Late Renaissance Europe
by Ken Albala will be out in 2007.

Johnnae

Patrick Levesque wrote:
> I'm looking for sources period descriptions, narrations or tales of events,
> ceremonies, tourneys, banquets, balls, feasts, etc, etc, etc...snipped
> They don't have to be only about food itself - I've recently been looking
> into events from a more holistic perspective.
> Thanks! Petru


Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2006 08:01:15 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Festival Books was Period description of
	"events"
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Continuing along where I left off last evening, you might like
this online source from the British Library.

Treasures in Full. Renaissance Festival Books.
'Read Renaissance and Early Modern festival books on your desktop now

View 253 digitized Renaissance festival books (selected from over 2,000
in the British Library's collection) that describe the magnificent
festivals and ceremonies that took place in Europe between 1475 and 1700
- marriages and funerals of royalty and nobility, coronations, stately
entries into cities and other grand events."

http://www.bl.uk/treasures/festivalbooks/homepage.html

What is a festival book?
http://www.bl.uk/treasures/festivalbooks/basics.html

Examples-- http://www.bl.uk/treasures/festivalbooks/italy.html

Johnnae llyn Lewis

> Patrick Levesque wrote: 
> I'm looking for sources period descriptions, narrations or tales of events,
> ceremonies, tourneys, banquets, balls, feasts, etc, etc, etc...snipped
> They don't have to be only about food itself - I've recently been looking
> into events from a more holistic perspective.
> Thanks! Petru


Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 18:39:16 -0500
From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] documentation for a sumptuous feast
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>,
	authenticcooks at fiedlerfamily.net

I'm almost afraid to post this because I know several people including
Christopher likely to run with it, but I just transcribed this and
wanted to share it with the list:

From Roy Strong. "Feast: A History of Grand Eating" p. 73-75

QUOTE:

What is probably the best and most complete account we have of a late
medieval banquet describes the dinner given by Gaston IV, comte de Foix,
at Tours in 1457. It was staged in honour of an embassy from the king of
Hungary, a mission which included not only Hungarians but Germans,
Bohemians and Luxemburgers. To that cosmopolitan guest list of a hundred
and fifty must be added the whole of the French court. The guests were
seated in strict order of precedence at twelve large tables with the
host, together with the leaders of the embassy and the most important
French notables, served separately, as was customary, at a high table.

The feast was exceptional, not only for the number of courses involved
-- no fewer than seven -- but also for the fact that the account 
actually describes the food served. Up until now, such details were
normally passed over in silence or, if mentioned at all, simply remarked
in terms of splendour and abundance. The meal opened modestly with
pieces of toast that the diner dipped into the spiced wine called
hippocras, but then swiftly moved on to 'grands pates de chapons
[capons],' 'jambons de sanglier [hams of wild boar],' and seven
different kinds of potage, all served on silver. Each table bore a
hundred and fourty silver plates, a feat of ostentation that was to be
repeated in the courses that followed. Ragouts of game came next:
pheasants, partridges, rabbits, peacocks, bustards, wild geese, swans,
and various river birds, not to mention venison. These ragouts were
accompanied by several other kinds of dishes and pottage. Then came a
pause.

Although there is no reference in our account to the placement of the
tables, they must have been arranged in a horseshoe forming an arena at
the centre. Into that space came what was called an entremet, the first
of a series. Twelve men wheeled in a castle on a rock. Whether the men
were concealed inside the rock or not we do not learn, but the castle
itself had four corner towers and a large keep at the centre with four
windows, at each of which could be seen a richly attired lady. The
central keep was adorned with heraldic banners bearing the arms of the
king of Hungary and those of the other great lords who made up the
embassy. At the top of each of the four towers a child sang like an
angel (though what they sang we do not learn.)

After this display the feast resumed with a dish called 'oiseaux armes',
which has defied definition by culinary historians, served with yet more
pottages. But the real distinction of this course was that 'tout ce
service fut dore' '-- all the food was apparently gilded, or at least
given the appearance of being golden. Then came the second entremet: six
men, dressed in the regional constume of Bearn, carried in a man
disguised as a tiger wearing a collar from which was suspended the arms
of the king of Hungary. The tiger spat fire and the Bearnais danced, to
great applause from the onlookers.

Following a fifth course which included tarts, darioles (small moulded
dishes, sweet in this case) and fried oranges, another entremet came
forth. In terms of sheer spectacle this must have eclipsed everything
that went before. Twenty-four men were needed to bring it into the hall,
an indication as to both its size and weight. It was a mountain
containing two fountains, one of which spouted rosewater, the other 'eau
de muscade'. Suddenly out of this rocky promontory rabbits scampered
while live birds emerged to fly around the hall. Four boys and a girl,
all dressed as savages, descended to dance a morisco. Then the
count distributed largesse to the various attendant heralds of arms, the
one from Hungary recieving, in addition to the two hundred e'cus
bestowed on the others, a fine length of velvet.

The sixth course consisted of dessert, red hippocras served with certain
kinds of wafer called 'oublies' and 'roles', after which came a final
entremet. A man attired in embroidered crimson satin appeared astride a
similarly caparisoned horse. In his hands he carried a model garden made
of wax which was filled with roses and a variety of other flowers, and
set it before the ladies (an indication that they must have been seated
separately from the men). This, we are told, was the most admired of all
the entremets, although what followed in the way of food as a finale
must have been equally extraordinary. It involved a heraldic menagerie
sculpted in sugar: lions, stags, monkeys and various other birds and
beasts, each holding in beak or paw the arms of the Hungarian king.

Unbelieveably, the banquet was not yet over. In came a live peacock with
the arms of the queen of France encompassing its neck and the arms of
the ladies of the French court draped over its body. In response, all
the lords present advanced and pledged to support the cause of the
Hungarian king (it was customary to make vows of chivalry on birds). Our
account closes with one other important detail. In the middle of the
room there was apparently a platform, an estrade, from which singers and
an organ provided music during the dinner.

END QUOTE

Since the original of this description was in Catalan, I would suggest
that the fried oranges are really the cheese balls described in De Nola.
Having the ladies sit separately, if indeed they did, would have
followed the Eastern European meal tradition.
-- 
-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net 


Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 22:57:38 -0400
From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Thoughts about a neat feast
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

>> I was thinking about doing a totally fancy feast. It would
>> be very expensive, costing diners $20 - $25 probably.
>> But it would be done in an all day, period fashion with
>> courses brought out at various times with musicians
>> and entertainment.
>>
>> The theme would be the Greek Gods with each course
>> being dedicated to a god or group of gods.
>
> This sounds like the sort of thing that, if period at all, would be
> late period--at least, that's my association. Do we have examples of
> that sort of themed feast?

I believe there are a number of late-period Italian examples described
in Roy Strong's _Feast: A History of Grand Eating_
-- 
-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net 


Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 20:26:01 -0700
From: Lilinah <lilinah at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Thoughts about a neat feast
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net> wrote:
>>> I was thinking about doing a totally fancy feast. It would
>>> be very expensive, costing diners $20 - $25 probably.
>>> But it would be done in an all day, period fashion with
>>> courses brought out at various times with musicians
>>> and entertainment.
>>>
>>> The theme would be the Greek Gods with each course
>>> being dedicated to a god or group of gods.
>>
>> This sounds like the sort of thing that, if period at all, would be
>> late period--at least, that's my association. Do we have examples of
>> that sort of themed feast?
>
> I believe there are a number of late-period Italian examples described
> in Roy Strong's _Feast: A History of Grand Eating_

Those Italian feasts are unbelievably amazing - with tables with
machinery in them so they split and move during the feast - and food
that descends from the ceilings on clouds.

Amazing and astonishing reading.
--  
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita


Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 19:54:59 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Cooking the Books
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>,
	SCA_Subtleties at yahoogroups.com

While searching for something else
I came across this online exhibit of culinary illustrations.
http://bibliodyssey.blogspot.com/2006_10_01_archive.html
It's the one down on the page after Hibernia. Thursday, October 05, 2006
Cooking the Books
Among other things, there's an illustration of a table decoration
labeled as Tafelaufsatz aus einem Skizzenbuch
- sketch of table decoration from c. 16th century.

Johnnae


Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 09:48:01 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Flandrin's Arranging the Meal
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

And here's another new book

Johnna

Jean-Louis Flandrin
*Arranging the Meal*
/A History of Table Service in France/
Translated by Julie E. Johnson, with Sylvie and Antonio Roder; Foreword
to the English-Language Edition by Beatrice Fink

Foreword, by Georges Carantino
Foreword to the English Language Edition: Jean-Louis Flandrin's World
Order, by Beatrice Fink
Preface

PART ONE. THE STRUCTURE OF MEALS IN THE CLASSICAL AGE
1. Composition of the Classical Meal
2. Roasts
3. Entr?es and Entremets
4. Composition of Meatless Meals

PART TWO. FOURTEENTH TO TWENTIETH CENTURIES: VARIATIONS IN THE SEQUENCE
OF COURSES IN FRANCE
5. French Meals in the Fourteenth and Fifteenth Centuries
6. Sixteenth-Century Overview
7. Classical Order in the Seventeenth and Eighteenth Centuries
8. Innovations from the Revolution to World War I
9. Hidden Changes in the Twentieth Century

PART THREE. OTHER COUNTRIES, OTHER SEQUENCES
10. English Menu Sequences
11. Polish Banquets in the Sixteenth, Seventeenth, and Eighteenth  
Centuries

Postscript
Appendixes
A. Additional Material for Part Three
B. Dietetics and Meal Sequences
C. The Cuisine of the Renaissance
D. Additional Printed Sources
Notes
Bibliography
Index

http://www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/10066.html


Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 06:41:21 -0500
From: "Elise Fleming" <alysk at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Course/Remove
To: "Gretchen Beck" <grm at andrew.cmu.edu>,	"Cooks within the SCA"
	<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>,	sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Margaret asked:
> So (since I'm being lazy and have too many other things to dig up at the
> moment), when was this style of serving adopted in France, and what did the
> French call this particular object/action?

Several other folk have posted, quite eruditely, about this.  "The Appetite
and the Eye", in a chapter by C. Anne Wilson, implies that the "new method"
was the manner of setting out dishes on a table in particular patterns with
folding-plate illustrations showing how to set out the dishes.  Ms. Wilson
writes: "As the seventeenth century drew to a close, a new method was
discovered for conveying the way to set out dishes upon the
table...Folding-plate illustrations had rarely appeared...but
folding-plates showing table-settings seem to have been incorporated in F.
Massialot's 'Le Cuisinier Roial et Bourgeois' of 1691.  They were soon
copied in...Monsieur Audiger's 'La Maison Regle'e' of 1692...This new style
of representing plates upon the table-top arrived in England with the
publication in 1702 of 'The Court and Country Cook'...(Alys notes -  It's a
translation and combination of two French cookery books.)... The second
edition of Henry Howard's 'England's Newest Way in All Sorts of Cookery,
Pastry, and all Pickles that are Fit to be Used', published in 1708,
contains the final innovation which was to set the pattern for diagrams of
table-settings...there is eveny the recently adopted usage of the 'remove'
(a dish to be succeeded by another)...[A soup] was served out to everyone
present, and its large serving-bowl or tureen was then removed.  In its
place was set the item of meat or fish written in the lower half of the
circle...(Alys notes: This is one of the circles on the illustration
showing where the dishes were to be placed on the table.)  The soup and its
'remove' or replacement marked the first step towards a different division
of the courses which led evenutally, after the coming of the Russian
service early in the nineteenth century, to the usual sequence of courses
at today's formal dinners."

There you have it.  Documentation for the "invention" of a remove, which
isn't a course, and which does not fall within the SCA time period, plus a
brief explanation of the change from the old style of serving foods -
dishes being brought in by servers, one course after the other, to dishes
being already placed on the table in symmetrical (and crowded?) patterns,
to today's formal dining service.

Alys Katharine


Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2009 16:16:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Raphaella DiContini <raphaellad at yahoo.com>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Handwashing in 1500's Italian feast menus

There's something I've noticed when looking through two menus in Messisbugo, that recalled to mind something I had seen in the Scappi menus as well.

Just before the final course the top tablecloth was removed to reveal a clean one underneath, scented water was provided for hand washing, and in Scappi, they were given clean napkins. 

From Messisbugo's Libro Novo, Menu in the Middle of August 1530
"And therein is removed one tablecloth and everything on the tables, and they are given sweet-smelling water for the hands." 

Again from the Menu for the Eight of September 1531
"And there they removed tablecloth and everything on the table, and they are given sweet-smelling water for the hands,"

This was apparently not limited to only feasts or even evening meals, as looking through the Menu translations posted by Helewyse here: 
http://www.geocities.com/helewyse/octobermenus.html 
You can see this mentioned in both Lunch and Dinner menus

From Scappi's Opera 

Lunch on the 15th of October 
"Raise the tablecloth, wash hands, change the white napkins" 

The same is mentioned again in the dinner menu on the same day
"Raise the tablecloth, wash hands, change the white napkins"

In the August lunch and dinner menus on August 8th and 15 all this is mentioned each time in the same place in the menu, translated as: "Lift the tablecloth, give water to the hands, one changes to the white serviettes and one serves" the? Italian transcription is: 
"Levata la tovaglia, & data l?acqua alle mani, si muteranno salviette candide"

This is listed immediately before the final course, and is seen consistently in both sources. 

I've used the serving practices listed in Scappi's menus before, with each course alternately buffet style from the sideboard (Credenza) or served from the kitchen (Cuchina), but I have yet to attempt this changing of table linens and providing scented (I would guess rose, or citrus) water, before the final course and I'm wondering about the logistical feasibility of it. Perhaps this is something that could only work for a perfect period feast where all of the servers and diners are trained in what to expect as I can imagine the chaos and complaints that might ensue if I were to try this currently. Perhaps if there was a class on one of the etiquette manuals, or an overview of many? Any thoughts? 

Raffaella


Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2015 14:37:27 -0500
From: JIMCHEVAL at aol.com
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] English period recipes and household info

The archives are wonky just now, so I don't know if this collection has  
already been cited. But for what it's worth, there's a wealth of recipes in 
this  collection, as well as lists of prices, household functions, etc; (see 
the  introduction for an overview.)

A  Collection of Ordinances and Regulations for the Government of the Royal 
Household, Made in Divers Reigns
https://books.google.com/books?id=yGxBAQAAMAAJ&dq=buletello&pg=PA474#v=onepa
ge&q&f=false

Only place I've seen cumin used with peacock. Oh, and there's  an item for 
'roo in brothe' - not anachonistic, just, apparently, "roe" in  period 
spelling.

Jim  Chevallier

<the end>
Edited by Mark S. Harris	p-feasts-msg	35 of 35