p-cooks-msg – 10/9/18

Comments and information on specific period cooks.

NOTE: See also the files: p-kitchens-msg, kit-job-titls-msg, p-tableware-msg, p-menus-msg, utensils-msg, pottery-msg, Kentwell-Hall-art, cook-ovr-fire-msg.

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NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

Thank you,
    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 14:37:36 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Who Were Those Guys?

THLRenata at aol.com wrote:
> Does anyone have any biographical data on Sabina Welserin, John Murrell,
> Thomas Dawson, Sir Hugh Plat and the countless less others I'm forgetting?

See Eric Quayle's "Old Cook Books: An Illustrated History" © 1978 Eric
Quayle, Pub. E.P. Dutton, NewYork
ISBN: 0-87690-283-2 for a chapter on Hugh Plat. There may be other
useful information for you in this book.

As for Le Menagier, I was under the impression we really had little
proof one way or t'other as to who he was, let alone any biographical
details. There's been some speculation, based on some tantalizing
textual references, that he was of the emergent middle class, well-to-do
but not really noble, possibly a clerk of some kind.

Adamantius
Østgardr, East


Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 12:44:51 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Who Were Those Guys?

At 12:58 PM -0500 1/15/99, THLRenata at aol.com wrote:
>I'm thinking about an article for my baronial newsletter about the cooks of
>our period (or close) whose cookbooks we still use.
>
>I have info on Tallevent (sorry about the spelling -- I'm at work and the
>books are at home), the Goodman of Paris and Chiquart (sp), and Eleanor
>Fettiplace.
>
>Does anyone have any biographical data on Sabina Welserin, John Murrell,
>Thomas Dawson, Sir Hugh Plat and the countless less others I'm forgetting?

Digby was moderately famous, and you should be able to find biographical
information on him fairly easily. I believe his library was the start for
the current library at either Oxford or Cambridge.

David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/


Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 14:49:33 -0700 (MST)
From: Mary Morman <memorman at oldcolo.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Who Were Those Guys?

There is a lot of biographical info on Digby in the new Prospect Press
edition of his "closet openeed".

Elaina


Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 07:11:06 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - When Were Those Guys?

James Gilly / Alasdair mac Iain wrote:
> I'd appreciate it if someone could quickly give me approximate dates for
> the following:
>
>      Chiquart
events described occurred ~1405, written ~1425, IIRC

>      Taillevent
1379 C.E.

>      Apicius
More than one person by that name, probably late 1st, early second
century C.E.

>      Platina
1475 C.E.

>      Sabina Welserin
Insufficient caffeine. Press any key to continue. (16th century???)

>      Elinor Fettiplace
~1580 - 1605 C.E.

>      Le Managier
~1390 C.E.

>      Sir Kenelm Digbie
published posthumously, 1669 C.E., presumably written _pre_ posthumously...

>      *Das Buoch von Guter Speise*  (and is there an author's name
>          to go with that?)
Anonymous, AFAIK. 1st half 14th century C.E., ~1325.

Adamantius
Østgardr, East


Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 07:11:43 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - When Were Those Guys?

> >      Sabina Welserin
> Insufficient caffeine. Press any key to continue. (16th century???)
>
        1553, according to the cover of Valoise Armstrong's translation.
Sabina was a member of one of "commercial nobility" of Augsburg, the
Fuggers, the Welsers and the Hochstetters.  The three families were
international mercantile bankers and venture capitalists.

        Bear


Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:41:33 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Did medieval cooks read Apicus?

At 11:39 AM -0500 1/22/99, Philip & Susan Troy wrote:
>I think it's pretty likely that most cooks knew, to some extent by
>heart, the dishes taught them by whoever taught them the craft, and not
>much else in the area of cookbooks. There may even have been the
>rationale that one wouldn't need cookbooks if one had cooks to figure
>out all that stuff.
>
>Adamantius

Master Chiquart, who was the chief cook of the Duke of Savoy in the early
15th c., says explicitly that he has never read a cookbook--and given how
different in style his book is from all others, I believe it. However, many
of his dishes are the same that you see elsewhere--he just takes five times
as many words to describe them.

Elizabeth/Betty Cook


Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 21:39:28 EST
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: SC - Medieval writing styles

memorman at oldcolo.com writes:
<<  I was reading CHiquart last night looking
 for a quote and realized what a verbose and downright pompous fellow he
 was!  I can well believe from his writing that he never read a book at
 all!

 Elaina >>

A quick glance at a few of my books dating from the Victorian era back,
clearly shows that verbose and pompous writing was , in fact, the sign of a
good writer. IMO, Chiquart clearly shows hinself to be a man of learning in
his writings as opposed to those who set down works like Ancient cookery and
FoC on parchement. It is not until; we get into this century that simplistic
writing styles break any ground and in recent years writers have become so
simplistic and inane that there are few, if any, works worth reading at all.

Ras


Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 08:33:10 SAST-2
From: "Christina VAN TETS" <ivantets at botzoo.uct.ac.za>
Subject: SC - Henry Peacham

Ras, I think perhaps you misunderstood the use of the Henry Peacham
extracts.  Although they were published in the 1620s and 30s, he
wrote them originally for his charges (he was a tutor).  Now if I
had written something for an individual, I think I'd wait a decent
interval before publishing it for all and sundry, purely as
politeness.  Judging by the rest of his writing, I think he'd
probably feel much the same way.  In addition, he was writing when
fairly old (oh, 37?) about what the continent was like in his youth.
Since his youth he had worked as tutor, and so his charges would have
known the continent too and this stuff would have been unnecessary.
To my mind, then, he was writing of things fairly close to our cut
off date, and could presumably be used (if no earlier, better
description exists) of an Englishman's impressions of French habits
in late period.  Sure it doesn't give you mediaeval, but the the SCA
isn't just 'mediaeval'.

Cairistiona


Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 09:45:24 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Nobles and cooking?

david friedman wrote:
> Which raises an interesting question--was cooking seen as something that
> noblewomen wouldn't dirty their hand with in period? Or was it assumed that
> since part of their job was running a household, they ought to know how it
> was done from the ground up?

I think this is the eternal problem with all forms of upper
management...can Bill Gates actually program (it's debatable whether any
of his employees can), or can the CEO of General Motors actually build a
car?

Certainly there are examples of middle-to-high ranking women who at
least had to supervise others in their service. Both le Menagier's wife
and the women mentioned in the Domestroi appear to be supervising cooks
at times, and then you have people like Elinor Fettiplace (the wife of a
country knight), who was familiar enough with cookery to record a book
of receipts for her progeny, even if she didn't actually do most of the
cooking, although her familiarity with the finer points suggests she may
have been an integral part of kitchen activities.

As to whether Eleanor of Aquitaine had a mean recipe for cuskynoles,
there's no evidence I'm aware of to suggest this is or isn't the case,
but I believe the involvement of very-high-ranking ladies in projects
requiring needlework, for example, even when they didn't do it alone,
suggests to me it's possible such a lady might have been familiar enough
with cookery to discuss an intelligent menu with the steward. This isn't
hard evidence, of course. It actually seems fairly likely to me that
someone like Maud/Mathilde, wife of William the Conqueror, who went from
being the wife of a bastard Duke to being Queen of England, probably
didn't forget how to make a hot posset for William in the interim after
a hard day of oppressing Saxons.

> So far as al-Islam is concerned, I think it is clear that high ranking men
> did take an interest in cooking, whether or not they did it themselves. At
> least, there are surviving recipes attributed to Ibrahim ibn al Mahdi, who
> was a close relative of several caliphs and himself an unsuccessful
> claimant to the caliphate at one point. And I believe one of the cookbooks
> in the 10th c. collection is attributed to one of the Barmakids, the family
> that served as viziers for al-Rashid until he turned on them.

Yes, there seems to be a class of gentleman gourmets in al-Islam. I
wonder if their legacy of cookery texts might be the result of their
literacy...not that women couldn't have written or dictated, but I'm put
in mind of the Chinese food poetry and recipes written down by men (not
always high-ranking in a political or social sense, but realtively
well-known to us). Many of them were artists of various types (Su Tung
Po, Li Po, Ni Tsan, to name a few) who either developed a taste for fine
foods in the patronage of the wealthy, in contrast to the cooking in
various cookshops, high and low, or developed some skill in cookery
because they couldn't afford to have someone else do it for them.
Fortunes change rapidly, but a good recipe for stuffed carp is eternal.
The Chinese gourmet artists seem to be rather similar to some Roman
poets like Martial and Juvenal.

Adamantius


Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 19:56:28 -0800
From: varmstro at zipcon.net (Valoise Armstrong)
Subject: Re: SC - SC German Herbs, Spices, and Ingredients (long)

Adamantius wrote
>I was thinking that there's a big change between Ein Buoch Von Guter
>Spise (early 14th century) and Sabina Welserin's kochbuch (mid 16th),

Yes, exactly. There is a definite change to what we would perceive today as
German, even though there a many dishes that appear to be carried over from
an earlier time.

>Now, one might be able to argue
>(and this is something I haven't researched sufficiently) that the
>former source is more like court cookery, while the latter is more
>wealthy but bourgoise, along the lines of Le Menagier. My point is only
>that the differences I see might be the result of comparing apples and
>oranges. Can anyone address that one?

When I first looked at Sabina Welserin I thought it would be a clear case
of bourgoisie vs. court cooking. But then I started researching the Welsers
and found that this was not an average merchant family. by any means. In
the first half of the 16th they financed a colony in the Carribean and
obtained the rights to colonize Venezuela as a reward for bankrolling some
of the Hapsburgs activities. As a matter of fact, Phillipine Welser married
a Hapsburg who became the Archduke of Tyrol.

There is also the problem of the recipe for a sauce thickened with a roux
that appears in Sabina's book. Not a distinctly German idea, but definitely
a modern and not medieval method.

Nice puzzle to unravel.

Valoise


Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 12:03:32 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Cook's Knight Out?

Vicki Eldredge wrote:
> There was a cook/chef that was knighted for his culinary talents? Remember
> that discussion? Who was that? When did it happen?

Sieur Guillaume Tirel, dit Taillevent, 14th century...

Adamantius


Date: Thu, 30 Dec 1999 01:14:34 +0100
From: Thomas Gloning <Thomas.Gloning at germanistik.uni-giessen.de>
Subject: SC - Marx Rumpolt, was: Information access / Hungarian cuisine

As far as I know, the name of Marx Rumpolt is "Marx Rumpolt" :-}

The form "Marxen" was used as a dative and accusative case form (given
names were inflected at times).

"Marx" is a common given name around 1600, another wellknown Marx is
Marx Welser from Augsburg who wrote a chronicle of Augsburg and who
first edited the book of falconry of Frederick II. (Reliqua librorum
Friderici II. imperatoris ..., Augsburg 1596).

Other (German) people called our author "Marx Rumpolt" (and not Rumpolt
Marx), e.g. the people of the imperial chancery of Rudolf II. in the
privilegium against the reprint of Rumpolt's cookbook. Rumpolt himself
signed the preface: "Marx Rumpolt/ Churf. Meintzischer Mundtkoch".

Concerning Rumpolt's biography, there is a further, though minor detail
in his preface: his ancestors lived in the little Walachei:

"Denn weil ich ein geborner Vnger/ vnd aber der grausam Wütricht vnnd
Erbfeindt Christliches Namens/ der Türck/ nach dem er meine Voreltern
von Landt vnd Leuten vertrieben/ das vnsere/ so in klein Walachey
gelegen/ biß auff den heutigen Tag jnnen hat/ auch vns nach Leib vnd
Leben trachtet/ Als hab ich mich von Jugendt auff vnter frembden müssen
erhalten/ darauff geflissen vnd bedacht seyn/ wie ich heut oder morgen
meinen vnterhalt vnnd außkommen haben möchte. Hab derwegen von einem
Land in dz ander/ meiner notturfft/ vnd der Herren/ so ich gedienet/
Geschäffte halben/ verreisen müssen/ also/ daß ich einer Sprach nach
notturfft nicht hab obligen können".

Rumpolt says here that he is a native Hungarian, that his ancestors were
expelled by the turkish invasion from the little Walachei and that the
possession of his family was lost this way, therefore he had to look for
work and money in several different countries.

All this is meant as an _excuse_ for the fact that he could not learn
languages. Rumpolt says that he describes dishes "so viel ich mit
eygener Handt gemachet" ('that I prepared with my own hands').

It seems to me (please correct me if I am wrong) that a background for
Rumpolt's excuse might be different ways of producing a cookbook:
(a) compiling a cookbook from other sources (thereby using knowledge of
foreign languages);
(b) producing a cookbook by describing the dishes that one has prepared
oneself (using one's experience as an international chef).

Thomas


Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 03:03:34 +0200
From: Thomas Gloning <gloning at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE>
Subject: SC - Symeon Seth (11thC) on foodstuffs. What else?

Recently, Phlip mentioned that someone was preparing a translation of
Symeon Seth based on a French version (Brunet 1939). Symeon Seth was an
important 11th century byzantine writer on dietetics and foodstuffs.

Yesterday, I got an interesting, if somewhat obscure booklet by
"Gymnasialrektor Dr. Georg Helmreich", entitled "Handschriftliche
Studien zu Symeon Seth" ('Manuscript investigations about Symeon Seth';
Ansbach 1913). In the first place, Helmreich criticizes the edition of
Langkavel (1868) in various respects; he says that the older editions
are still valuable, especially the Bogdanus edition Paris 1658.

According to Helmreich, Symeon Seth was widely read in the Middle Ages;
his text is extant in many manuscripts now in Paris, Milano, Modena,
Venice, Oxford, Vienna, Moscau, the Athos and Munich (p.32f.).

Here is what I have found on Symeon Seth and his book on foodstuffs so
far:

- -- Brunet, M.: SimÈon Seth, mÈdÈcin de l'EmpÈreur Michel Doucas.
Bordeaux: Delmas 1939.
- -- Helmreich, G.: Handschriftliche Studien zu Symeon Seth. Programm des
K. humanistischen Gymnasiums in Ansbach f¸r das Schuljahr 1912/13.
Ansbach 1913.
- -- Krumbacher, K.: Geschichte der byzantinischen Litteratur von
Justinian bis zum Ende des ostrˆmischen Reiches (527-1453). Zweite
Auflage, bearbeitet unter Mitwirkung von A. Ehrhard und H. Gelzer. Zwei
Teilb‰nde. M¸nchen 1897.
- -- Meyer, E.H.F.: Geschichte der Botanik. Vier B‰nde. Kˆnigsberg
1854-57.
- -- Sarton, G.: Introduction to the history of science. Five volumes.
Baltimore 1927-1947. Reprint 1954-67.
- -- Symeon Seth: Syntagma per literarum ordinem de cibariorum facultate
(...) Lilio Gregorio Gyraldo interprete. Griechisch und lateinisch hg.
von G. Gyraldus. Paris 1538.
- -- Symeon Seth: Simeonis Sethi Magistri Antiocheni volumen de
Alimentorum facultatibus: nunc vero per Dominicum Monthesaurum correctum
[et] pene reformatum. Basel 1561.
- -- Symeon Seth: De alimentorum facultatibus juxta ordinem literarum
digestum (...) emendatum et Latina versione donatum a M. Bogdano. Paris
1658.
- -- Symeon Seth: De alimentorum facultatibus. Ed. B. Langkavel. Leipzig
1868. [Dazu die sehr kritische Abhandlung von Helmreich, Ansbach 1913.]

What else is there on Symeon Seth and his book on food?

Thomas


Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 02:19:25 +0200
From: TG <gloning at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE>
Subject: Re: SC - Renaissance (and other) Cooks

<< I'm still looking for around for books that can give me some
biographical information on various cooking people in the Renaissance.
I've been thinking hard and the only person I can come up with would be
the wife in Le Menagier du Paris. >>

I am not sure if she is supposed to cook herself; the beginning of
section II iv of the Menagier suggests, that rather she is supposed to
supervise, to order, to arrange and to plan, what a certain "maistre
Jehan" is to fulfill ("De la deuxiesme Distinction la quart article qui
vous doit aprendre que vous, comme souverain maistre de vostre hostel,
sachiez commander et diviser a maistre Jehan disners et souppers et
deviser mes et assiectes"; ed. Brereton/Ferrier p. 170).

<< 1. In my own collection I only have excerpts from Le Menagier.  What
book(s) do I want to request from Inter Library Loan that either give
full text of Le Menagier or give text and commentary? >>

There are two standard editions (both usable):
- -- Brereton, G.E./ Ferrier, J.M.: Le Menagier de Paris. Oxford 1981.    
- -- Pichon, J. (Èd.): Le MÈnagier de Paris. TraitÈ de morale et
d'Èconomie domestique, composÈ vers 1393 par un Bourgeois parisien. Deux
volumes. Paris 1846. Reprint Genf o.J.

<< 2.  Can anyone name any other cooks I may wish to consider doing
biographical research on? >>

- -- Maistre Chiquart
(see Scully's edition in Vallesia, and his Engl. transl.; see also the
appendix in Scully's 'Early French cookery': the fictional 'A day in the
Life of mater Chiquart Amiczo, Chef of the Duke of Savoy (1416 A.D.', p.
333ff.)

- -- Taillevent (14th century)
(much biographical data in the Pichon/Vicaire edition: Pichon, J./
Vicaire, G. (Hg.): Le viandier de Guillaume Tirel dit Taillevent
(1326-1395). Paris 1892. Nachdruck der Ausgabe von 1892, erweitert um
das 1953 erstmals verˆffentlichte Manuskript von Sion. Luzarches
(Morcrette) o.J.; see also Scully's new edition.)

- -- Maestro Martino ("the guy that Platina got his recipes from")
(see books and articles of Milham, Benporat, Bertoluzza, Scully: Cuoco
Nap.)

- -- Maister Hanns, des von Wirtemberg Koch (his cookbook 1460)
(see the Ehlert edition)

- -- Scappi, his Opera 1570
(see the reprint of his 'Opera', 1981, for a short note and some
references, e.g. A. Willan, I maestri cucinieri da Taillevent a
Escoffier, Milano 1977, 32-45))

There are many less famous cooks, who wrote no cookbooks (e.g. Peter aus
Gernsheim, cook for the Bishop of Speyer, ca. 1470) or whose cookbooks
are not yet edited (e.g. Ulrich Schwartz, inn keeper at Augsburg around
1510)

Thomas


Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 16:59:29 -0700
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: SC - Written recipes (was: interesting URL - food shopping!)

At 6:24 PM -0400 8/30/00, Jenne Heise quoted someone:
>  > I don't know how true it is that professional cooks outside of towns
>>  were guild members, but certainly cooks worked with other cooks and
>>  learned from them, and there's at least the theoretical possibility that
>>  a specific technique could be passed from one generation of cooks to
>>  another, just as parents pass recipes to children. Of course, there's no
>>  guarantee quantities have never been forgotten, changed or tweaked over
>>  the generations, either, especially when different numbers of people
>>  were being served each time.

and then said:

>And of course we get into the question of whether this applies to written
>recipes-- if you had learned the recipe from someone else in your guild
>training, why would you be looking it up in a written copy?

Chiquart was chief cook to the duke of Savoy and dictated a cookbook 
dated 1420; he says he has never read a cookbook and given how 
different his is from all the others, I believe him. He says he is 
writing his at the insistance of the duke. So a top professioal cook 
did not think of cookbooks as one of the necessary tools of his 
trade. I am not sure who used the manuscripts we have.

Elizabeth/Betty Cook


Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 14:14:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jenne Heise <jenne at tulgey.browser.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Written recipes (was: interesting URL - food shopping!)

> Chiquart was chief cook to the duke of Savoy and dictated a cookbook 
> dated 1420; he says he has never read a cookbook and given how 
> different his is from all the others, I believe him. He says he is 
> writing his at the insistance of the duke. So a top professioal cook 
> did not think of cookbooks as one of the necessary tools of his 
> trade. I am not sure who used the manuscripts we have.

A number of commentators, including Maria Dembinska and someone (?!) who
wrote about the library of Mathias Corvinas have suggested that Italian
cookbooks, including Platina, were used by cooks working for royalty in
Hungary and Poland. (Dembinska comments on the unusually high almond use
for the kitchen of St. Queen Jadwiga of Wawel, attributing it to a liking
for Italian foods and an imported chef. -- I immediately envisioned
Polish kitchen workers saying, "MORE Almond milk?! Doesn't he ever cook
anything without almond milk?! I make any more almond milk this week and 
I'll turn INTO an almond...")

Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise


Date: Wed, 6 Sep 2000 21:51:18 -0700
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Renaissance Cooks

At 6:15 PM -0400 8/31/00, Marian.Deborah.Rosenberg at washcoll.edu 
(Marian Deborah Rosenber wrote:
>   I'm still looking for around for books that can give me some biographical
>information on various cooking people in the Renaissance.  I've been thinking
>hard and the only person I can come up with would be the wife in Le 
>Menagier du Paris.

There is an old book by Eileen Power called _Medieval People_ which 
consists of six chapters on what life would have been like for six 
different medieval people--one of whom is the Menagier's wife.

Elizabeth/Betty Cook


Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 13:26:52 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Taillevent bio

Vincent Cuenca wrote:
> Offhand, does anyone know if Guillaume Tirel was nobly born or a commoner?
> His knighthood for service to the House of Valois would seem less unusual if
> her were nobly born.  I've found a few instances of cooking knights (Sir
> Kenelm Digby being one, and a Gonzalvo Gil listed in a c1300 roll of members
> in the Order of Santiago as "cozinero mayor del rey" or head cook to the
> king).  Were these cases of additional honors being bestowed on those
> already entitled, or the elevation of commoners due to their skills?
> 
> Vicente
> (knighthood for cooking... hmmm...)

I once had a lovely discussion with a member of the Order of Chivalry
here in the East, in which he opined that the Order of the Laurel was
not an appropriately period form of recognition for a master craftsman.
(This was a while ago, before the leafy thing occurred.) Finally he
said, "Okay, you're a cook who tries to behave like a period cook. What,
based on your experience and historical precedent, is the highest honor
a Crown would bestow on a cook for that service?" I said, "Well,
Taillevent was made a knight and given an estate..."  Somehow the
subject changed after that.

As far as I can recall, Taillevent was a commoner, and while I have a
vague memory of it having been said he was the son of a shopkeeper, all
I can find is that his name appears listed on a roll dated 1326 as a
kitchen boy in the household of Jean d'Evereaux, and the Larousse
specifically calls his subsequent knighting ceremony as his
"ennoblement", by which we can conclude (if accurate) that prior to that
date, he wasn't noble.

Digby appears to have been a knight in a non-culinary right; cookery,
brewing, mazing, etc., seem to have been sidelines. I seem to recall
reading that he had been both a diplomat and a spy for various English
Crowns. I know there's a fairly detailed (if short) bio of Digby in Eric
Quayle's "Old Cook Books".   

Adamantius


Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 17:42:00 -0700
From: James Prescott <prescotj at telusplanet.net>
Subject: SC - Myths -- Taillevent

Thorvald here:

Speaking of myths that may need repeated debunking, a month ago 
there were some posts to this list suggesting that Taillevent was 
knighted.  I did not see any debunking post to follow.

So I guess I should post one.

I also address some other apparent myths concerning Taillevent.

I would be delighted if it were otherwise, but I do not believe 
that Taillevent was knighted.

I invite correction.

1)  He almost certainly began life as a commoner.  Entering a
    kitchen as a kitchen boy at perhaps age 12 would have been
    almost unthinkable for someone of gentle or noble birth.
    Pichon and Vicaire give no information about his parentage.

2)  Pichon and Vicaire (1892 but still cited by Scully and Luce  
    who would presumably know better than I if there were more
    recent information of significance) do not refer to a knighting, 
    nor do they anywhere give him the title of knight.  In signing 
    documents Taillevent did not give himself any gentle or knightly 
    or noble title.

3)  He was appointed "Sergeant at Arms" to the king for some short
    number of years in his middle life.  It was a post with either
    actual duties, or perhaps by that era with purely nominal 
    duties (he was, after all, in his mid fifties).  In either 
    case it was clearly a reward for long and faithful service.

4)  It is clear that for the last two decades of his life he was 
    no longer a sergeant at arms, though he was appointed to various
    high offices related to the king's kitchen.  Another person 
    is referred to in a quote in Pichon and Vicaire as 'formerly 
    sergeant at arms' which clearly indicates that it was an 
    honourable office but not a permanent degree.

5)  While he was a sergeant at arms he was entitled to wear armour
    and carry weapons.  He had his tomb facade carved at that time
    depicting himself in armour flanked by his first and second
    wives.  I _speculate_ that he chose to have his tomb facade
    done at this time, decades before his death, because he knew
    that he would not again have the right to be so depicted.

6)  He is shown in armour, with a dagger and a sword and a mace 
    (symbol of the office of sergeant at arms) at his belt, and 
    with rowel spurs on his heels.  There is no chain of fealty 
    depicted, though the absence does not prove that he wasn't a 
    knight.

7)  The shield he carries displays a device.  I assume that this 
    indicates that he was entitled to bear heraldic arms at this 
    date, or earlier, though there is no direct evidence that he 
    was granted this right.  If so, this would could imply that he 
    had probably been elevated to the gentry.

8)  On the tomb facade his first wife (but not his second) is 
    referred to as 'demoiselle', which suggests that she might 
    herself have been of the gentry.  She also appears to be
    better dressed and coiffed than his second wife, which may 
    or may not signify a social difference.

9)  I _speculate_ that Taillevent was raised to the gentry when
    he was appointed sergeant at arms to the king.  My reasoning 
    is that the king would have wished that all of his sergeants 
    at arms be of at least gentle rank, especially if they had 
    the duty of close attendance on the king, or had any powers 
    of arrest.

10) The OED, in talking of the sergeants at arms to the English
    king, says that at one stage they had to be of knightly rank
    (they were at that stage combined bodyguard to the king and 
    royal police officers).  Perhaps someone has interpreted this 
    to signify that all sergeants at arms of any country and any 
    date must have been knights, which clearly is not the case.

11) The older (1938) Larousse Gastronomique in English translation 
    does not, contrary to some comments, refer to Taillevent as 
    having been knighted and/or ennobled.  Perhaps the recent
    edition, which I do not have, does.  Can anyone quote from 
    the recent edition?

12) There has been mention that SimÈon Luce refers to Taillevent 
    being knighted or ennobled, but I can find no indication that 
    he does.

13) There has been mention that Taillevent was given a property 
    (by implication by the king, by implication yielding revenue,
    and by implication to accompany an elevation in rank), but I 
    can find no indication in Pichon and Vicaire that he was given 
    any such a property.

14) There has been mention of Taillevent being a 'squire', with 
    the implication that this was either related to the military 
    squire, or was the equivalent of 'Esquire' signifying gentle 
    rank.

    Pichon and Vicaire make it clear that 'squire of the kitchen' 
    (Taillevent was in his mid sixties when he is first mentioned
    as having this title) was a title for a cupbearer (presumably 
    with other duties), apparently outranking the cooks, certainly 
    an honour but unrelated to matters military and no indication
    of gentle rank.  Taillevent was earlier 'squire of the mansion' 
    and later cook to the Dauphin when he was about 40.

    It is nothing more than a fancy title for a senior servant.  
    Another example of title inflation.

Again, I invite correction.
- -- 
Thorvald Grimsson / James Prescott <prescotj at telusplanet.net> (PGP user)


Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 09:37:53 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Myths -- Taillevent

One of the problems in dealing with households is determining the actual
rank of various members of the household, since able and trusted men were
often accorded positions of authority out of keeping with the circumstances
of their birth.  In the case of a Royal household, most of the senior
servants were of gentle birth and their staffs were divided between gentles
and yeomen.  The major exception is the marshallage, which was normally
comprised of brawling commoners overseen by a knight or knights and
gentle or yeoman footmen.

For the specialists, cooks, bakers, brewers, smiths, masons, etc., the heads
of these departments were normally masters of their particular mysteries and
reported to a steward who reported to the Wardrobe (chief of inventory and
accounting).  Squire of the kitchen would probably equate to "steward of the
kitchen," whose duty it was to help set the daily menus and oversee the
expenditures of the kitchen.  The position was normally held by a nobleman
as was the "steward of the house," whose duty it was to oversee the smooth
function of all household divisions and ensure the safety of the household.
The steward of the house was often a knight with combat command experience.

Considering that Guillaume Tirel served the House of Valois in the 14th
Century, first under Phillipe, then under Charles V and Charles VI, during
the end of the Hundred Years War, his use of arms, and his appointments as
"Sergeant at Arms" (essentially a Captain of the Guard) and "squire of the
house" may not have been ceremonial.  France was very unsettled, when
Charles V became regent for his father John II in 1356 and the Dauphin's
palace was actually invaded by traitors and the Marshals of Champagne and
Brittany were murdered in his presence (1358).  Much of these problems
continued until after the Treaty of Bruges in 1375.  Since Tirel's major
service was with Charles V and his positions were granted primarily during
that time, it suggests that Tirel was highly skilled, loyal and trusted
servant.  The positions suggest that he was ennobled for his services and
that he served in knightly capacities in perilous times.

When Charles VI came to the throne in 1380, he was 12 years old and would
suffer bouts of insanity for his remaining 42 years, allowing his 4 uncles a
great deal of control.  Charles and his uncles would probably use household
positions to reward their favorites and Tirel's positions would become those
of a sinecure to a loyal household retainer.

BTW, a "cupbearer" was an individual who was granted a cup as part of his
fee to carry in the service of his master.  In the English Royal household,
cupbearers were often Dukes, major clerics or major landholders.

You could probably tell a great deal more from the household accounts, but
the available records are mostly from the 15th Century or later, when title
inflation and grandiose ceremony were becoming more common.

Bear


Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 19:35:47 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Myths -- Taillevent

If we were talking German, I think we would be talking about a knight
(Ritter or "rider").  "Ecuyer" roughly translates as "rider".  However, this
is French and the word appears to derive from the Old French "escuier" or
esquire.  The term is likely being used to describe petite nobility, actual
rank being determined by the custom of time and place.

Bear

> My 1961 edition (English Translation) says that he was under Charles VI
> "premier ecuyer de cuisine et maistre des garisons de cuisine de France"
> It translates that as "head cook and master of the garrisons of France".
> While I do not read French the translation does not seem to scan.
> 
> Daniel Raoul


Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 00:36:40 -0700
From: James Prescott <prescotj at telusplanet.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Myths -- Taillevent

At 16:49 -0500 2001-01-25, Daniel Phelps wrote:
> My 1961 edition (English Translation) says that he was under Charles VI
> "premier ecuyer de cuisine et maistre des garisons de cuisine de France"  It
> translates that as "head cook and master of the garrisons of France".  While
> I do not read French the translation does not seem to scan.

The French is not even an accurate copy of the quotation in Pichon 
and Vicaire, which ends "... de cuisine du roy".

The French would translate as "first squire of the kitchen, and 
master of the kitchen stores of the king [of France]".

You are right that the alleged English translation doesn't match.
- -- 
All my best,
Thorvald Grimsson / James Prescott <prescotj at telusplanet.net> (PGP user)


Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 08:56:07 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Myths -- Taillevent

But the OED is "English," and does not necessarily apply to the French.
There is some evidence that the French were far more rank concious than the
English and would be less likely to have yeoman squires.  The use of ecuyer
as opposed to escuier actually suggests gentry.  The gentry ride, while the
peasants walk in the dust of the road.

One also needs to keep in mind the organizational context of the squire.
For a common knight, a yeoman squire makes a certain sense, while a Royal
household would be more likely to have gentlemen as squires.

The 1380 date is interesting because it is at the beginning of a period
where a number of knighthoods were refused because the title of knight did
not have enough income to support the equipage requirements.  In fact,
without a war to support them a number of knights who had not gathered lands
and wealth during the last phase of the Hundred Years War became brigands or
condottieri opening the historical transition between bastard fuedalism and
the professional military of the nation-state.

Bear

> At 19:35 -0600 2001-01-25, Decker, Terry D. wrote:
> > If we were talking German, I think we would be talking 
> about a knight
> > (Ritter or "rider").  "Ecuyer" roughly translates as 
> "rider".  However, this
> > is French and the word appears to derive from the Old 
> French "escuier" or
> > esquire.  The term is likely being used to describe petite 
> nobility, actual
> > rank being determined by the custom of time and place.
> 
> The OED has a citation from 1380 for the use of 'squire' to also 
> mean a servant or attendant or follower, without implication any 
> longer of being of the gentry.
> 
> Thorvald


Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 13:44:24 -0700
From: James Prescott <prescotj at telusplanet.net>
Subject: RE: SC - Myths -- Taillevent

At 08:56 -0600 2001-01-26, Decker, Terry D. wrote:
> But the OED is "English," and does not necessarily apply to the French.

Quite true.  I noted it to show that by 1380 in England the 
word 'squire' had acquired a non-gentry usage.  I don't have 
etymological French dictionaries at home, so I can't give you 
right now a date for the similar usage in France.

By the way, having had occasion to lean heavily on both the OED 
and the various French dictionaries, it is my experience that 
the OED is quite often more useful about Old French words and
usage than all of the French dictionaries put together.

> There is some evidence that the French were far more rank concious than the
> English and would be less likely to have yeoman squires.  The use of ecuyer
> as opposed to escuier actually suggests gentry.  The gentry ride, while the
> peasants walk in the dust of the road.

The word 'Ècuyer' is the modern spelling of 'escuier'.  They are 
not two different words.  In the period quotations in Pichon and 
Vicaire we find 'escuyer' and 'escuier' used interchangeably.

By the way, the original root of the word is "shield bearer"
(cf. escutcheon), and is not related to horses or riding.

Being a member of the gentry is not a temporary condition.  Once 
you are in, you stay in.  Taillevent was first mentioned as an 
"Ècuyer" in 1355.  In 1359, 1361, 1368, 1373, and 1377 he isn't.  
He is an "Ècuyer" again 1381 and 1388.  In 1392 he isn't.  This 
is not consistent with an interpretation of "Ècuyer" as a member 
of the gentry.

These mentions generally occur in lists of kitchen staff, which 
is where you might expect to find occupational titles and not 
indications of social standing.

By the way, 'yeoman' used as a social ranking in England, just 
below gentry, has no equivalent in France.
- -- 
Thorvald Grimsson / James Prescott <prescotj at telusplanet.net> 


Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 18:38:36 -0700
From: James Prescott <prescotj at telusplanet.net>
Subject: RE: SC - Myths -- Taillevent

At 13:44 -0700 2001-01-26, James Prescott wrote:
> At 08:56 -0600 2001-01-26, Decker, Terry D. wrote:
> > But the OED is "English," and does not necessarily apply to the French.
> 
> Quite true.  I noted it to show that by 1380 in England the 
> word 'squire' had acquired a non-gentry usage.  I don't have 
> etymological French dictionaries at home, so I can't give you 
> right now a date for the similar usage in France.

Toddled off to the university library to look through their big 
French dictionaries and their Old French dictionaries.

In summary, the usage of 'Ècuyer' meaning a senior servant, 
without military or gentry implications, has citations as 
early as 1174-76, though my favourite dictionary gives an 
earliest citation of 1340.

Interestingly, one of the dictionaries puts the usage of 
'Ècuyer' in the sense of trainee knight as _later_ than its 
use in the sense of senior servant.  Not what I would have 
guessed.

The usage of 'Ècuyer' in the sense of horseman, which it 
acquired through confusion with similar sounding equestrian 
words, is modern.

One of the dictionaries interprets "Ècuyer de cuisine" (which 
I have been translating literally as "squire of the kitchen") 
as "maistre cuisinier", meaning "master cook".
- -- 
Thorvald Grimsson / James Prescott <prescotj at telusplanet.net> (PGP user)


From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Pennsic Iron Chef Results
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 16:35:47 -0500

> Sure, many knights and most mercenaries and actors travelled a lot and
> operated independently.  Did cooks?
>
> Inga/Linda

Probably.  Journeymen cooks and bakers tended to go where there was work and
to broaden their skills.  From some of the household accounts, it is obvious
that cooks and bakers were often independent contractors, receiving wages
and bonuses as well as room and board.  While some, such as Taillevent,
apprenticed into a household and served the house for a lifetime, I suspect
this may have been less common than the hiring of guild trained cooks and
bakers, especially in the Later Middle Ages.

There are also cooks and bakers who worked the streets and fairs about whom
we know very little.

Bear


Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 22:09:57 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Le Menagier's chicken in orange sauce
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Kirrily Robert wrote:
> Bah. I just submitted my column, and the editor's asked me for a few
> hundred more words on Le Menagier - the man, the manuscript, whatever.
> Which, of course, I don't have.  
>
> Katherine

There's mixed opinions about it but you might want to see
Living and Dining in Medieval Paris: Medieval Paris:
The Household of a Fourteenth Century Knight
By Nicole Crossley-Holland This study is based largely around a manuscript
written in the 1390s the Ménagier de Paris for the instruction of his young wife on how to run her kitchen. In it, Nicole Crossley-Holland combines the scholarly
with the practical in introducing us to the sophisticated world of the
Parisian upper class. She offers us menus and advice on food preparation and household skills and goes on to identify the author of this manuscript, something which had remained a mystery until now. She examines typical Parisian houses, the origins of the produce, the diet of the household and provides translations of many of the primary sources.
University of Wales Press 2000.  244 pp, 24 b/w illus  Paper ISBN:
0-7083-1647-6.  Stock # DB004. $35.00
http://www.foodbooks.com/medieval.htm

Several other authors use Le Menagier as source for recipes, including
the Scully's in Early French Cookery and Redon's The Medieval Kitchen.

Johnnae llyn Lewis


Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 19:34:17 -0500
From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1 at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fw: [EKCooksGuild] ATTN Jedwiga has PMS
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Micheal wrote:
>>  Gods of cooking
>    Interesting phrase for an interprative art form. Does one carry a
> rolling pin sceptor, a frying pan shield, and roaster armor.  A
> sausage wreath crown, with  lackies running behind reminding one
> "there`s a pie in the oven."
>   Da

Actually, a description of a Master Cook's "accoutrements" was somewhat
described as follows:

The Cook orders, regulates and is obeyed in his Kitchen; he should have
a chair between the buffet and the fireplace to sit on and rest if
necessary; the chair should be so placed that he can see and survey
everything that is being done in the Kitchen; he should have in his hand
a large wooden spoon which has a double function:  one, to test pottages
and brouets, and the other, to chase the children out of the Kitchen to
make them work, striking them if necessary.

Memoires, Olivier de la Marche,
Maitre d'Hotel, Capitaine des Gardes to Charles the Bold,
Duke of Burgundy, mid-Fifteenth Century

Kiri


Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 08:11:29 -0500
From: "Denise Wolff" <scadian at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Re: Sca-cooks Digest, Vol 20, Issue 80
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

<<Hasn't anyone ever heard that old saying... "Never trust a skinny Cook"?>>

The cook must be cleanly both in body and garments. She must have a quick eye,
a curious nose, a perfect taste, and a ready ear; and she must not be
butter-ingered, sweet-toothed, nor faint-hearted. For the first will let
everything fall; the second will consume what it should increase; and the
last will lose time with too much niceness.

Gervase Markham, The English Huswife, 1683.

Andrea MacIntyre


Date: Mon, 01 May 2006 08:32:59 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] What NOT to serve at feast...
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Markham's career is written about here--
  http://www.bartleby.com/214/1701.html
http://www.bartleby.com/214/1705.html

Johnnae


Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 12:05:13 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
From: Christiane <christianetrue at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sca-cooks Digest, Vol 26, Issue 38
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

<<< From time to time, listees ask about Hungarian recipes. Besides those 
in Marx Rumpolt, here's another, this time from Italy.

Cristoforo Messisbugo, aka Cristoforo da Messisburgo, authored 
several cookbooks in the 16th century. One was Banchetti, or 
'Banquets', dated 1549. I would assume from his family name that 
either he or his family was not originally Italian. >>>

I've found some references online to him as being from Flanders. Trying to find something more authoritative than that, though. 

There is some interesting insight here on how the cuisine of Alto Adige (South Tyrol) still retains the influences of the Germanic and Central European cuisines that influenced Messibugo and the compiler of the Anomino Veneziano:

http://www.emmeti.it/Cucina/Trentino_Alto_Adige/Storia/Trentino_Alto_Adige.ART.84.en.html

Gianotta


Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 19:14:20 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Messisbugo
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

According to the entry in Alice Arndt's Culinary Biographies, there is 
scant evidence as to where he was actually born. Some sources insist on Ferrara; other mention Flanders. What is known is that he must have been in Ferrara and at work there by 1524. Professor Ken Albala did the entry in the volume.

Johnnae

Christiane wrote:
<<< Cristoforo Messisbugo, aka Cristoforo da Messisburgo, authored 
several cookbooks in the 16th century. One was Banchetti, or 
'Banquets', dated 1549. I would assume from his family name that 
either he or his family was not originally Italian. >>>

I've found some references online to him as being from Flanders. Trying to find something more authoritative than that, though. snipped

Gianotta


Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 23:35:38 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Messisbugo
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Works associated with the author are:

Banchetti compositioni di vivande et apparecchio generale /
Ferrara : G. de Buglhat et A.Hucher Compagni, 1549.

Then in 1552 title changes to Libro novo nel qval s'insegna a' far 
d'ogni sorte di uiu?da secondo la diuersit? de i tempi

Libro novo nel qval s'insegna a' far d'ogni sorte di uiu?da secondo la 
diuersit? de i tempi ... Et il modo d'ordinar banchetti, apparecchiar 
tauole, fornir palazzi, & ornar camere ... */ *Composta per M. 
Cristofaro di Messisbugo, & hora di nouo corretta, & ristampata ...  In 
Venetia : [Ad instantia di Giouanni dalla Chiesa Pauese, 1556

Then editions in 1557, 1559, 1576, 1578, 1581, 1585, 1589, 1600, 1610, 
1617, etc.

This from Lord Westbury's Handlist of Italian Cookery Books.

The Forni edition which is still available is:

7 * Christofaro di Messisbugo,*
Libro novo nel qual s'insegna a' far d'ogni sorte di vivanda
(Venetia, 1557). (TG) Presentazione alla ristampa di G. Mantovano./ 
In-16, pp. 244, tela /

<https://www.fornieditore.com/flex/FixedPages/EN/ShowOpera.php/L/EN/IDMateria/FF/IDArgomento/-1/SKU/1049%206>Euros  
27,00

Ken Albala in Food in Early Modern Europe covers Messisbugo nicely in 
his chapter on Italy.

Johnnae

Emilio Szabo wrote:
Georges Vicaire, in his "Bibliographie gastronomique" (online at
http://gallica.bnf.fr), mentions only the "Banchetti" and says, that 
this book
was published from 1552 onwards under a different title ("Libro novo 
...").
I have not seen the 1549 edition, I have only a xerocopy of a Arnoldo 
Forni Editore
reprint of the 1557 edition of "Libro novo ...".
Lilinah wrote:
Ah! A sort of standard 16th century history, published under one 
title, republished with a change of title, and published a few more 
times, with or without changes of content.

Thanks for the information, Emilio. I know relatively little about 
Messisbugo, but what little i found looked interesting. Your 
description of his work makes him sound quite valuable.

I haven't found much of his work in English, and my Italian is limited 
to a combination of high school Latin, restaurant menu Spanish, a good 
deal more French, and an Italian dictionary.


Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 12:14:12 -0500
From: "Kingstaste" <kingstaste at comcast.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Cooking for Power
To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I've been collecting Cook's biographical blurbs from various sources for a
while, I have a few that are specific to cooking for Kings and other
powerful people.

Christianna

Guillaume Tirel, 'TAILLEVENT' (d c 1395) is the only mediaeval cook 
about whose life anything is known. In 1326 he was a kitchen boy in 
one of the French royal households. Twenty-five years later, records 
show him to have been, successively, in the service of Philip VI and 
the Dauphin, who, in 1364, became Charles V. Still serving the same 
master, Taillevent was described in 1373 as 'premier queu du roi' - 
chief cook. He was still alive in 1392, when his name figures on a 
list of royal chefs who had received new knives. He was also granted 
arms: on his tombstone, he is portrayed wearing armour and carrying a 
shield decorated with three marmites.

Guillaume Tirel, known as Taillevent (1310-1395)
Wrote first professional cookery book in France. It was commissioned by
Charles V.  The full title in English is: "Hereafter follows the Viandier
describing the preparation of all manner of foods, as cooked by Taillevent,
the cook of our noble king, and also the dressing and preparation of boiled
meat, roasts, sea and freshwater fish, sauces, spices, and other suitable
and necessary things as described hereafter."

Le Viandier, the cookery book that bears Taillevent's name, survives 
in one manuscript that dates from before 1392, says Barbara Ketcham 
Wheaton in Savouring the Past; so it's possible that he actually did 
have something to do with it. Mrs. Wheaton points out that two texts 
from very early in the century (certainly predating Taillevent's 
birth), contain the 'core' of the recipes in Le Viandier, but 
adds, 'it would be inappropriate to reproach the historical 
Taillevent with plagiaarism... Most cooks were illiterate, holding 
their knowledge in their heads, hands and palates. When the rare 
literate cook wrote down - or the illiterate cook dictated - what he 
knew, he drew on traditional knowledge.'

Fran?ois Pierre de la Varenne (1618 ? Dijon 1678), Burgundian by birth, was
the author of Le cuisinier fran?ois (1651), the founding text of modern
French cuisine.

It is said that La Varenne's first training was in the kitchens of Marie de
Medici. At the time his books were published, La Varenne had ten years'
experience as chef de cuisine to Nicolas Chalon du Bl?, Marquis of Uxelles
(marquis d'Uxelles in French), to whom he dedicated his publications and
whom he immortalized in duxelles, finely-minced mushrooms seasoned with
herbs and shallots, which is still a favourite flavouring for fish and
vegetables. The Marquis of Uxelles was the royal governor of
Chalon-sur-Sa?ne, thought by some to be the birthplace of La Varenne.

Marcel Dunan(d) ? The gifted and imaginative Chef de Cuisine at the
Tuileries.  Also a man whose culinary talents often brought him into
conflict with his employer, Napoleon.  

Henri Charpentier (1880-?) - Henri Charpentier was a French chef who became
John D. Rockefeller's chef in the U.S. He undoubtedly popularized the
flaming dessert 'crepes Suzette' in America.  Some sources, probably
erroneously, attribute the actual creation of the dish to him either at the
Cafe de Paris in Monte Carlo or at La Maison Francaise in Rockefeller
Center.


Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 12:51:35 -0500
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Chefs in History u0p to 1500 A.C.
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On Nov 25, 2008, at 12:36 PM, Ginny Beatty wrote:
<<< Great Cooks and Their Recipes - From Taillevent to Escoffier >>>

I'm pretty sure that's the one. I don't own a copy, and seem to recall  
it was semi-out-of-print when I read part of it, back in the late  
80's. Yeah, Anne Willan, it was.

Other possibilities include Wheaton's "The Delectable Past", which is  
about mostly French food but contains a lot of information about  
chefs, and Eric Quayle's "Old Cook Books" (which is, as the title  
suggests, about cookbooks and their authors).

Adamantius


Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 15:38:16 -0300
From: Suey <lordhunt at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Chefs in History up to 1500 A.C.
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

Adamantius wrote:
<<< I recall someone, probably back in the 70's and I recall an  
Englishwoman, writing a book called "Great Chefs And Their Recipes",  
touching on people like Taillevent, probably Chiquart, etc., almost  
certainly La Varenne. The book as divided into historical periods, but  
some of it had to do with the time period you mention... At the moment  
I'm not able to find any mention of this book on, say, the Amazon or  
Bookfinder sites... >>>

The book is Great Gooks and Their Recipes: From Taillevento to Escoffier  
by Anne Willan, available at Amzaon: 
http://www.amazon.com/Great-Cooks-Their-Recipes-Taillevent/dp/1862054371

Suey


Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 13:53:19 -0800
From: David Walddon <david at vastrepast.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Cooking for Power
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Here is an excellent link to the introduction of the University of  
California Press translation of the Martino Manuscript.
http://www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/9423/9423.intro.php

It gives you the low down on Martino.

David
________________________________________________________
David Walddon
david at vastrepast.com
www.vastrepast.com
web.mac.com/dwalddon


Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 20:25:24 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Cooking for Power
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

<<< Also Bernardo Scappi who, as I understand it, cooked
for several Cardinals, then reached the pinacle of his career cooking for a
couple of Popes?

Kiri >>>

It's Bartolomeo Scappi (1500?-1577).

After becoming a noted cook (1536) in the employ of Cardinal Lorenzo 
Campeggio, he worked for a succession of Cardinals, then entered the employ 
of Pope Pius IV (Giovanni Angelo Medici, 1559-1565) at the Vatican and 
continued his service with Pope Pius V (1566-1572).

The Opera was published in 1570.

Bear 


Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 21:48:59 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Chefs in History u0p to 1500 A.C.
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

There are reference books on the subject of chefs and cooks.
Culinary Biographies is one of course.
http://www.culinarybiographies.com/

This was the project of the late Alice Arndt.
Determining the name can often be accomplished if one can go through
the household accounts which list position and amount paid for the work 
done.

And of course once one has a name, historical cooks like other people,
can be researched in the accounts and histories of the era.

Johnnae

Suey wrote: 
<<<   snipped   The question  - have there been books related to chefs of 
major houses and families in Europe or the Middle East? I think not. 
What do we know about them? snipped >>>


Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 21:54:29 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Chefs in History u0p to 1500 A.C.
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

There are at least two different versions of Willan's book.
It was revised with better photography and graphics when it was re-released
and she added yet another cook to the mix.

It's come out in a less expensive reduced format paperback edition that 
was being remaindered for less than $5 a copy.

Wheaton's volume is Savoring the Past. The Delectable Past is probably 
the Esther B. Aresty book.

Johnnae

Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius wrote:
I'm pretty sure that's the one. I don't own a copy, and seem to recall 
it was semi-out-of-print when I read part of it, back in the late 
80's. Yeah, Anne Willan, it was.
Other possibilities include Wheaton's "The Delectable Past", which is 
about mostly French food but contains a lot of information about 
chefs, and Eric Quayle's "Old Cook Books" (which is, as the title 
suggests, about cookbooks and their authors).

Adamantius


Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 14:25:16 -0800
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] food allergies, life choices, issues
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

<<< Regarding dietary practices, it is interesting to remember that, in 
certain European locations in period refusal to eat certain foods 
would brand you either a heretic, i.e. a Cathar, or a secret Jew or 
Moslem.  Not a good thing in such situations. >>>

Chiquart makes it clear in _Du Fait de Cuisine_ that there will be 
guests with various food restrictions, presumably for either medical 
or religious--penance--reasons, and that they should be accomodated.

He also says that some guests will have brought their own cooks with 
them, and will need kitchen space to prepare their master's favorite 
dishes. Not something I've ever incorporated in an SCA feast.
-- 
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com


Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2009 15:09:58 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Forthcoming Books
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

New Books that people might like

Johnnae (playing librarian)

-----------

 Renaissance Secrets: Recipes & Formulas by Jo Wheeler

<snip>

-------
Sir Hugh Plat: The Search for Useful Knowledge in Early-Modern London
by Malcolm Thick
The scientific and proto-scientific community of Elizabethan and
Jacobean London has lately attracted much scholarly attention. This book
advances the subject by means of an investigation of the life and work
of Sir Hugh Plat (1552-1611), an author, alchemist, speculator and
inventor whose career touched on the fields of alchemy, general
scientific curiosity, cookery and sugar work, cosmetics, gardening and
agriculture, food manufacture, ...
Hardback. Not yet published - advance orders taken. Price US$60.00


Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 22:09:57 +0000 (GMT)
From: emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Messisbugo mentioned

Here is an article where Messisbugo is mentioned:
http://escholarship.org/uc/item/9b55518s

E.


Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2010 05:56:34 -0400
From: Sam Wallace <guillaumedep at gmail.com>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] EN LA ESPANA MEDIEVAL journal

This article has a listing of Court Chefs in Navarre from the 
mid-fourteenth through the 15th centuries:
http://revistas.ucm.es/ghi/02143038/articulos/ELEM0808110357A.PDF

Many entries are pulled from accounting books. The list starts on page 401.

Guillaume
******************
It seems to me that there are more articles worth screening on the 
website of "EN LA ESPANA MEDIEVAL".
...
E.


Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 09:04:20 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] fourth grade help

Peter Brears All The King's Cooks goes into the schedule of the cooks  
at Hampton Court Palace. You could supplement his text with photos  
taken by the Tudor Cooks who recreate the cookery there today. http://tudorcook.blogspot.com/
There are also some smaller booklets that Hampton Court sells that  
would help as well.
http://www.hrp.org.uk/hamptoncourtpalace/

Between Brears' book, the blog, the forum, the photos on flickr, and  
the website, there ought to be enough there for a project.
She could do a small cake (cookie) to hand out or a molded sugrapaste  
treat.

Johnnae

On Apr 28, 2011, at 8:15 AM, Jo Foster wrote:
<<< I've gotten an email from a fourth grade student regarding 'being a  
chef in the Middle Ages' no specific time period.  I am having  
difficulty with finding information that will help her.  The project  
is to prepare ahead of time to spend the afternoon 'being' that  
profession.  Being a cook, I could handle, being a baker, I could  
handle ... but she wants 'fancier' than that ..... and I dont know  
what to tell her. >>>

<the end>
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