ingred-lists-msg - 4/6/07 Comments on posting ingredient lists at SCA feasts. NOTE: See also the files: headcooks-msg, high-table-msg, French-Tbl-Srv-art, ME-feasts-msg, p-menus-msg, serving-soups-msg, feast-serving-msg, dayboards-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 12:49:43 -0500 From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] listing of ingredients... To: Cooks within the SCA On Feb 25, 2007, at 12:11 PM, kimberley lee wrote: > I am stewarding my first feast this April. I've been playing for 8 > years and am in my third Kingdom to live it. My question is this: > My Event Steward first wanted us to post my recipies. I talked her > out of that...then she said that she wanted me to post ALL of my > ingredients on the website. I told her that I wasn't sure that I > wanted to do that either. I felt that my menu and a link to ask me > any question or voice any dietary or allergy concerns. She still > wants me to post the ingredient list at the event. She said that > she had seen this done in the North all the time. I don't > know...I'm a southern girl and have only played in Ansteorra, Glenn > Ahbann, and Meridies. > > Is this a common practice in the North? > Should I list even the unpronouncable ingredients? > > I think that she is mainly wanting a list of my spices. I season > to taste and at the last minute may want to add a little cinnamon > to a dish. > > Should I list every possible spice whether or not I actually use it? > > I'm confused! Though I am a picky eater, I taste what ever is > put in front of me and if I think there might be a strawberry on > the plate, I avoid it like the plague. These are things that I > concern myself with, I have never gone to the feast steward and > told them..hey don't put...I don't know...um...cheese in anything > cause I might die. > > Is this a common occurance as well? > > All we want to do is put together a period feast filled with > foods that everyone will at least try. I didn't realize that there > would be acrobatic hoop jumping....lol. > > Thank you for letting me rant...and I would appreciate your ideas > as to how best display all of my ingredients. Well, while it may appear your event steward is acting out some kind of control fantasy, one could argue that it makes sense. It can also be difficult to forecast with perfect accuracy what will go into all the dishes on the day of the event. I'd say your best bet is to post your menu with an ingredients list per dish that is clearly identified as *tentative*, provide an updated dry-erase board (or equivalent) on the kitchen door as changes are made, post your changes there, and have a herald or somebody like that remind people to check the board if they have serious allergy issues. I actually like to assume that whatever ingredients list I publish in advance is pretty well binding on me, and part of the challenge, and therefore the fun, is playing the game within the set rules and changing not the ingredients, but their proportions, to change the dish. But I think my suggestion is probably a pretty good compromise, for all that I'm not a Southern girl myself ;-). Adamantius Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 13:07:38 -0500 From: Robin Carroll-Mann Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] listing of ingredients... To: Cooks within the SCA kimberley lee wrote: > She still wants me to post the ingredient list at the event. She > said that she had seen this done in the North all the time. I > don't know...I'm a southern girl and have only played in Ansteorra, > Glenn Ahbann, and Meridies. > > Is this a common practice in the North? Yes -- at least in my neck of the woods. > Should I list even the unpronouncable ingredients? I usually put something like chicken broth (canned) on the list, and keep a copy of the label, perhaps taped to an index card. If someone asks about sodium di-whoosiwhatzit, it will be easy for them to find out. > I think that she is mainly wanting a list of my spices. I season > to taste and at the last minute may want to add a little cinnamon > to a dish. There is one gentle in my barony who would have to be rushed to the hospital if cinnamon appeared unexpectedly in a dish. We have a couple of others who would have serious reactions to pepper. > Should I list every possible spice whether or not I actually use > it? If you are cooking for a feast, I think you should decide on your spices in advance. This is one of the reasons I test recipes before the feast. You can "spice to taste" by adjusting quantities and proportions in the feast kitchen. > All we want to do is put together a period feast filled with foods > that everyone will at least try. A wonderful and laudable goal. Having your ingredient list available on the day of the event will make people with health concerns more confident about trying your food. -- Brighid ni Chiarain Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 14:13:54 -0500 From: "Elaine Koogler" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] listing of ingredients... To: "Cooks within the SCA" Given all the allergies that are out there, not to mention people who are lactose intolerant, diabetic, etc., I think we flirt with disaster if we don't provide a list of ingredients. What we do is to publish a link to the head cook's email for questions prior to the feast, then the head cook typically provides a list of ingredients on the day of the event. As others have indicated, I usually add an ingredient to the list "day of" if I decide to add it. I also test cook most of the dishes so that, as others have mentioned, I pretty much know what I'm going to do the day of the feast. Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 14:57:43 -0500 From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] listing of ingredients... To: Cooks within the SCA > Is this a common practice in the North? > Should I list even the unpronouncable ingredients? Yup, it is. I do it myself because put all my stuff on the web, and it's a safety precaution that we urge on everyone. If your concern is that you are using commercial products (beef base and so on), just say "commercial x" and save the label in case anyone asks. I generally just make up a packet of my recipes and leave it at troll the day of the event (which has turned out handy once or twice if one of my recipes gets damaged or gets left in the printer). -- -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 15:35:21 -0500 From: "Lonnie D. Harvel" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] listing of ingredients... To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org I list all of the ingredients. They go up on the website when the feast planning is complete. They are also in the menu posted at the event and on the feast tables. I see it as a way of educating folks about medieval and renaissance food. I make recipes available upon request (if they are mine and assuming I have permission for the ones I have absconded with). However, that said, posting your contact information for those with dietary concerns is the only thing I would consider "required". Even posting the ingredients is not always sufficient. Though I do provide a complete listing, those with serious food allergies, sensitivities, or health restrictions usually check just to be sure. Aoghann Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 09:46:50 +1300 From: Adele de Maisieres Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] listing of ingredients... To: Cooks within the SCA Daniel Myers wrote: > Maybe I'm a little dense today, but why would you object to the > posting of your recipes or even just the ingredients? Isn't part of > the SCA supposed to be the promotion of research, re-creation, and > education about the middle ages? I can tell you what my objections would be... 1. I have enough to do. One of the Society's goals may be education, but that doesn't mean that I have to do it personally every time I cook something. 2. I often don't have recipes redacted all that carefully, so my "researched" recipes sometimes don't differ overly from the originals. 3. I sometimes make some of the decisions on the day, so I don't know what all of the ingredients will be ahead of time. 4. I want people to discuss their issues with me, not rely on the ingredients list. We don't have a vast number of significant allergies here, but we do have some intolerances that require a chat with the cook about quantities/cooking methods/etc. This makes it much easier for me to ensude that everyone gets a good meal. Having said that, though, the norm in this Barony is for people with allergies or food restrictions is to mention them to the steward when booking, so that the cook can make decisions about warning people, providing alternates, etc. I can also provide an ingredients list (compiled over the course of cooking the feast) for anyone who asks to see it, but I've seldom found it's needed. -- Adele de Maisieres Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 16:48:22 -0500 From: "Sharon Gordon" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] listing of ingredients... To: "Cooks within the SCA" Listing all the ingredients before people need to make decisions about attending the feast and event are important for health and safety reasons. Without complete info, potential feasters must assume the feast is unsafe for them and that they need to bring their own food or leave before feast. However if some things are unknown at this point, you can state that in your list. For example, you might hope to have a pea and asparagus soup but it might be a pea soup if the asparagus is 8.99 a pound instead of the 1.99 a pound in your budget. You don't have to say all that though. You could just call it Spring Vegetable soup and then in your ingredient list you could say peas, onions, asparagus (subject to availability), etc. And then a few days before the event when you know the asparagus cost, you can add updates to the menu and ingredient website. Sharon Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 17:55:03 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] listing of ingredients... To: "Cooks within the SCA" I am an Ansteorran and in recent years, I have taken to producing the menu and recipes as a booklet that serves as the feast token as well as posting a list of dishes with all ingredients at the kitchen and at the gate. This allows anyone to quickly decide whether or not they want to eat the feast, answers most dietary concerns and permits people to determine what dishes they want to avoid. In my view, the practice saves my time and provides a useful service to people at the event. I have no objection to anyone seeing my recipes. I provide the original recipe, a translation if necessary, and my general adaptation of the recipe. I record any variation in ingredients in the ingredient list and once the feast recipe is fixed, I do not vary from the list. This is critical, at one feast prepared by another cook, the casual addition of a little curry powder to a soup could have sent my wife to the hospital. Fortunately, a friend tasted the soup before she did and stopped her from eating it. Since I am attempting to create period meals from period recipes, I make all of my stocks and sauces from scratch. If you don't make your own, you need to be aware of the ingredients in the commercial products you use. Bear Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 18:10:48 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] listing of ingredients... To: , "Cooks within the SCA" One of the best reasons to have the menu and ingredients posted at the gate is to improve feast sales. Making the decision to take feast when you are shelling out for the site fee is easier than trying to chase down the cook or visit the kitchen to check the menu, then returning to the cashier to make an additional purchase. Bear Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 22:36:52 -0500 From: "Nick Sasso" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] listing of ingredients... To: "Cooks within the SCA" Again, it is a matter of choice to promulgate the information actively . . . or have it on hand for anyone seeking it. One thing that finally made my mind up was knowing a family that does not have ready email access and has to make long distance calls for information like this if they cannot access it from public library computer. I decided that there are probably more people like that, and I personally have the tools that can pop out the igredients list in 15 minutes . . . post to a website in 10 more minutes. Since we always have an event website these days, the posting is even simpler. pacem et bonum, niccolo difrancesco (I do draw the line at breakdown of USDA nutritional information per serving) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 07:13:06 -0500 From: Tallan Family Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] listing of ingredients... To: Cooks within the SCA On Feb 27, 2007, at 6:08 PM, Adele de Maisieres wrote: > I don't not post recipes/ingredients because I don't want people to eat > safely. I don't want people to use an ingredients list alone to decide > what they can eat. I want them to contact me before the feast so that > I can either do what it takes to ensure that they get a good meal > without allergy problems or recommend other arrangements. That works if you have people who feel comfortable asking for special treatment. I know several people who are uncomfortable in doing so. They don't want to contact the cook and say that they are vegetarian or have problems with ingredient x, with the perhaps unstated implication that they are looking for alternative dishes to be cooked especially for them. What they would prefer, is to be confident that the menu will be sufficiently diverse that they can skip a dish or three and still get a reasonable meal from the remainder. And generally they can. Having a menu posted with ingredients allows them to make an informed decision. If the information isn't available, they won't be calling the cook - they'll be going off board. Maybe the feast would have been great for them, but they won't know that (except, perhaps, after the fact). I'm not saying they are right or wrong in this. It's just what they do. David Tallan (SCA Thomas) Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2007 11:38:16 +1300 From: Adele de Maisieres Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] listing of ingredients........ To: Cooks within the SCA K C Francis wrote: > Sharing recipies is up to the cooks and for most of us who ask, simply > knowing the original source and a few notes on what was done are enough to > make us happy. For me, knowing the ingredients is enough to play with. I'm quite happy to share recipes, but usually after the event. > Also, some people attend a feast at the last minute (through exchanged > tickets, etc.) and I feel they should have access to the food info > on site so they can skip problem dishes. That's fair enough-- I have no problem with giving someone a look at the ingredients list on the day. I just don't like the idea of having to post it well ahead of the event and with people generally using an ingredients list as a substitute for talking to the cook. > Personally, I like to have at least a menu so I can pace myself through the > feast and sometimes enjoy more of a fantastic dish if I know what is coming > after. I also collect feast menus and file them with recipies if > shared by the cook. Great memories and a great resource. I like printed menus, too. -- Adele de Maisieres Edited by Mark S. Harris ingred-lists-msg Page 7 of 7