high-alt-ckng-msg – 10/10/15

Cooking medieval food and feasts at high altitudes.

NOTE: See also the files: headcooks-msg, hot-weth-fsts-msg, kitch-toolbox-msg, p-menus-msg, p-feasts-msg, feast-decor-msg, bread-for-fsts-msg, fd-transport-msg.

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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:20:09 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
From: smcclune at earthlink.net
Subject: [Sca-cooks] High Altitude Cooking (was Cooking In Atenveldt
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

-----Original Message-----
From: "Jonathan and Rebecca Barber" <barber at runbox.com>
We've test-cooked it once and made some modifications.  Now we need to 
test cook it up there (Erud Sul is Flagstaff, which sits around 
6500-7000 feet).  I have no experience cooking at that altitude so it 
will be an interesting experiement the first time!
<<<

Speaking from personal experience ... in general, things will take 
longer to cook, especially boiled things.  For example, a pot of 
veggies that would take, say, ten minutes to cook at sea level will 
take around 2-5 minutes longer at altitude.  Baked goods (such as 
custards and pies) will also take a little longer.

And I'd highly recommend baking your bread at home and just bringing it 
along, if that's an option.  Adjusting bread recipes to account for 
altitude (as well as lack of humidity) can be tricky, though if you 
like, I can put you in touch with people who have done it successfully. 
  (I'm personally rather bread-challenged, but working to overcome that 
handicap <grin>.)

For roasted meats and such, you will probably not notice any difference 
in cooking times.

Arwen
Long-time resident of the Barony of Caerthe, Outlands
(Denver, CO a.k.a. "The Mile-High City")

-- who adds that many of our camping events are held in the nearby 
mountains, at 7,000-9-000 ft.  :)


Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 2354:58 -0700
From: Sheila McClune <smcclune at earthlink.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: High Altitude Cooking
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: "Jonathan and Rebecca Barber" <barber at runbox.com>
> Followup question - I just found out that the site has only convection 
> ovens - do standard conversions apply or does the altitude make a 
> difference there?
<<<

Well ... embarrassing as it is t admit it, I've never actually used a
convection oven <sheepish grin>.  I know there are other Outlanders on
this list, though ... perhaps some of them have experience in this area?

>>>>
> Our current plan is to get the bread made and I may well make the
> spaetzle at home (1200 feet or so).  We'll see.  We're going to test 
> cook the whole thing up there just to see.
<<<

I think the "make the spaetzle at home and heat it in a roaster" plan
sounds like a great idea. :)  So does test cooking at the feast
altitude.  I've got lots of stories of friends who have gone off
backpacking in the mountains at 10,000+ feet and then wondered why they
were having so much trouble getting the spaghetti to cook!

>>>>
> Oh, do cookies have any modifications needed?
<<<<
Yes, generally when I make cookies, I add a little more flour (1-2
tablespoons per standard batch of chocolate chip cookies, for example).
If you don't, they spread out and get really flat.  You'll also need to
cook them for a minute or two longer.

Arwe
Caerthe, Outlands
(Denver, CO)


Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 08:22:26 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] High Altitude Cooking (was Cooking In
	Atenveldt
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> Followup question - I just found out that the site has only convection
> ovens - do standard conversions apply or does the altitude make a
> difference there?
>
> Our current plan is to get the bread made and I may well make the spaetzle
> at home (1200 feet or so).  We'll see.  We're going to test cook the whole
> thing up there just to see.
>
> Oh, do cookies have any modifications needed?
>
> Ru

The differences in cooking at altitude are caused by the pressure
differential between altitudes.  The differences apply to all ovens and,
generally, all foods and cooking methods.  You will need to alter
temperatures and times for every 3000 feet in altitude.

Bear


Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 17:11:23 -0500
From: "Martin G. Diehl" <mdiehl at nac.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: High Altitude Cooking
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

>> Followup question - I just found out that the site has
>> only convection ovens - do standard conversions apply
>> or does the altitude make a difference there?

With the oven providing a somewhat calibrated cooking
temperature, probably not.

The rules about high altitude cooking apply to foods cooked
in boiling water ... because ...

     The reason ... is because the boiling point of water
     changes with altitude. As you go higher, the boiling
     temperature decreases.

     At sea level, the boiling point of water is 212 degrees
     F (100 degrees C).

     As a general rule, the temperature decreases by
     1 degree F for every 540 feet of altitude
     (0.56 degrees C for every 165 meters).

     On top of Pike's Peak, at 14,000 feet, the boiling point
     of water is 187 degrees F (86 degrees C). So pasta or
     potatoes cooked at sea level are seeing 25 degrees more
     heat than pasta or potatoes cooked on Pike's Peak.
     The lower heat means a longer cooking time is needed.

Quoted from How Stuff Works:
"Why do many foods have High Altitude Cooking Instructions?"
http://science.howstuffworks.com/question63.htm

In the case of a 10,000 ft. elevation, water boils at
193.5 degrees F instead of 212 degrees F.

>> Our current plan is to get the bread made and I may
>> well make the spaetzle at home (1200 feet or so).
>> We'll see.  We're going to test cook the whole thing
>> up there just to see.

I know that spaetzle is cooked in boiling water -- the
recipe that I use says to wait for it to rise to the top.

Can someone say the "rise to top" compensates correctly
for water temperature?

> I think the "make the spaetzle at home and heat it in a
> roaster" plan sounds like a great idea. :)  So does test
> cooking at the feast altitude.
> I've got lots of stories of friends who have gone off
> backpacking in the mountains at 10,000+ feet and then
> wondered why they were having so much trouble getting
> the spaghetti to cook!

P.S. I hope nobody becomes upset upon hearing that the
temperature of boiling water is not a constant.

Vincenzo


Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 11:32:25 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] baking at high altitudes
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Lower air pressure causes some problems in baking.  Rise occurs when the 
dough traps CO2 in the strands of gluten.  Vigorous CO2 production can cause 
outgassing from the dough reducing the rise.  However, I will say that I 
haven't had much problem with baking basic white bread at altitude with a 
properly stored yeast.  When I encounter such a problem, I'll check the 
baking at altitude information in The Joy of Cooking.

One needs to be even more careful with chemical leavens at altitude.  In 
fact a number of recipes, reduce the amount of chemical leavens above 3000 
ft.

Temperature control also becomes more critical at altitude.  Water boils at 
less than 212 deegrees F (100 degrees C), which can produce a dry or an 
underbaked product.

The problem with a pressure cooker is that it retains moisture which would 
effect the quality of the crust and crumb of bread.  It's an interesting 
idea that might just work for some kinds of bake goods.

Bear

========
Shoshanna said:
<<< I'll see if I can lighten it up some and I'll post my success or failure
whichever it is.  At over a mile up yeast does some strange stuff so who
knows! >>>

You mentioned this before in another message as well but you also 
mentioned that it was dry? cool? there also as well and I was  wondering 
if it was the dryness or the altitude which was bothering  the yeasts. 
Does starting with more yeast not solve this problem? Or  is it less that 
the yeast aren't multiplying but that they don't put  out as much CO2? 
Bear, other bakers? any comments? I might have  thought that the lower air 
pressure might make the generated CO2 go  further and puff up the bread 
more.

For many other dishes I guess you can solve things by using a pressure 
cooker, but I guess that doesn't work for baking...

Stefan


Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 16:33:25 -0700
From: Susan Lin <susanrlin at gmail.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] high altitude cooking

<<< May I suggest that altitude might have some effect?  Cariadoc lives at
sea level.  Baric lives fairly high in the mountains.  I live at 6500
feet and find that many baking recipes that worked fine for me when I
lived in DC simply do not work the same here in Colorado.

Let me take this opportunity to note that the Cooks and Bards Collegium
will be held at nearly 10000 feet - NOTHING is going to cook the way you
are used to.  The difference between where I live and the collegium is
as great as that between where Cariadoc lives and where Baric lives.
It's a different cooking world up there.

Elaina >>>

This is one of the reasons some of the Food Network competitions happen in
Vail.  It makes it more challenging.

I live at 5300 feet, just east of Boulder (sometimes considered the
"foothills", sometimes not).  I usually try a recipe as it is written
before making any changes.  I will tell you that yeast is far more active
at altitude.  If I would normally have used 2 1/2 teaspoons dry yeast (a
"packet" is between 2 1/4 and 2 1/2) I will bring it down to 2 teaspoons or
maybe even a little less.  If I'm using my bread machine (yes I use it,
sometimes for just mixing the dough, sometimes for the whole process) I
never make a 2 pound loaf - the 1 1/2 pound loaf usually fills the pan.

It's tricky up here.  humidity is also a big issue.  We are very dry here -
people think humid is 15% humidity.  Coming from upstate New York I just
laugh.

Anyone coming for KWCB - please, hydrate.  You might not notice it but you
will dehydrate much faster.  Also, breathe, full lungs.  Short breaths will
wipe you out.  If you're not used to the altitude it might take a day to
adjust.  Don't ignore the signs.  Hiking at 10,000 feet my lips turn blue
if I try to go too fast and don't breathe.

Shoshanah


Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 20:51:53 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period Recipe Fail.

Bear commented:
<<< Actually, I'm at about 1,000 ft. most of the time.  When I'm in the
Outlands, I'm at around 4,500 feet.  The difference in baking at those 
two altitudes is interesting. >>>

< In what ways do you find your baking affected by altitude changes? >

Both yeast and chemical leavens need to be reduced.  When I baked Boletinos 
Artos for Cailte's Roman feast, I had to decrease the yeast from 1 scant 
Tablespoon (roughly 2 1/2 teaspoons or one packet) to half a teaspoon.  I 
was also using a very active yeast, so I had to use even less than would 
normally be expected.

Under perfect conditions, every 250 feet up to about 3500 reduces the 
boiling point by approximately .5 degrees F.  The reduction tapers off 
slightly above that, but you can use the .5 degree figure for practical 
purposes (the gradient of change is almost linear) up to about 30,000.  This 
means one needs to add some water to the recipe to retain moisture in the 
bread during baking above 3,000 feet.  You will need to adjust a bread 
recipe about every 3,000 foot increment.   At 3000 ft., the boiling point is 
206.2 F, 6,000 feet, 200.6 F and at 10,000 feet 193.2 F.  At 10,000 feet, I 
expect to increase the liquid by roughly 10%.  And you remind me that I want 
to ask Mistress Katherine about running a test batch on Friday evening to 
see how I will need to modify the recipe.

Cakes are even more critical at altitude.  For those, one needs to reduce 
leaven, increase tougheners (flour, eggs), reduce softeners (eggs, 
shortening) and increase liquids.  It is a very tricky dance, for which I 
have the dance card which tells me the percentages of increase and reduction 
for various altitudes.

<<<  Baking manchet at 10,000 feet will be interesting. >>>

< Is manchet more or less affected by atmosphere change than other breads? >

No.  All high altitude baking is tricky.  10,000 feet is outside of most 
people's experience, certainly mine.

< Are there parts of Europe where people routinely live and bake at,  that 
are near 10,000 feet in altitude? >

Yes, but it is mostly summer farm baking in high altitude pasturage.  I know 
of no commercial bakery at those altitudes.

< I'm pretty sure that baking in a pressure cooker yields a totally 
different bread... :-)

Stefan >

Pressure cookers are not recommended for baking.  They produce steam to a 
degree that would be bad for the bread.  The also increase the internal 
pressure (essentially uncontroled except for a safety valve), increase the 
boiling point to retain moisture in the food and produce an accelerated 
cooking.  What you want for baking is a sealed oven pressurized to one 
atmosphere.

Bear

<the end>
Edited by Mark S. Harris	high-alt-ckng-msg	7 of 7