feasts-fish-msg – 9/23/18

Serving fish at SCA feasts. Menu suggestions.

NOTE: See also these files: fish-msg, seafood-msg, meat-smoked-msg, soup-msg, fried-foods-msg, feasts-msg, stockfish-msg, sausages-msg, sauces-msg.

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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 17:16:22 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Fish recipes

Kerri Canepa wrote:
> As I was browsing through the menus in Menagier, I couldn't help notice the
> preponderance of fish dishes. And that was on the meat day menus.

Le Menagier seems to be somewhat unique in containing a couple of dishes
calling for both meat and fish together; the meat tile, made of veal or
poultry sauced with a crayfish-flavored almond sauce, and garnished with
the tails, is one example, but there are others, I believe.

> I'm curious. Has anyone used fish dishes in the feasts they prepare? Even here
> in Alaska, salmon and halibut capital of the north, fish does not hit the 
> feast menu very often.
>
> If you have included fish recipes in feasts, how many did you prepare? How did
> the feast attendees respond to them?

Generally rather well. Favorites include the aforementioned meat tile
(but I made it with shrimp), the cuminee de poissons from Le Menagier de
Paris, roast salmon with cameline sauce, and saumon gentil from one of
the early Forme of Cury proto-manuscripts somewhere in Curye on
Inglyshe. The last one is a sort of quenelle, we served it with a green
sauce. I've also had great success with mussels in a vinegar/butter
broth, found, IIRC, in Gervase Markham's "The English Huswife".

I serve enough for everyone to have around 3 ounces sans shell, skin,
bones, etc., on the assumption there are a few who won't eat any at all,
and those who like the stuff will pig out, more or less.

Adamantius


Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 15:39:55 -0600
From: "Karen O" <kareno at lewistown.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Fish recipes

>I'm curious. Has anyone used fish dishes in the feasts they prepare? Even
here in Alaska, salmon and halibut capital of the north, fish does not hit
the feast menu very often.
>If you have included fish recipes in feasts, how many did you prepare? How
did the feast attendees respond to them?

    My Dearest Cedrin,

    The one memorable fish course I had was at a Loch Salann Solstice  -- we
had whole salmons cooked in a steamer/commercial pressure cooker thingy.
DEE LICIOUS!!!

 The event was at a National Guard Armoury, so we had a very
large/commercial kitchen and the salmon were rock hard frozen solid just
hours prior to feast,  and perfectly cooked when served.  I know,  *I*
couldn't get enough, and there was plenty to be had  ** served with a
delicate dill cream sauce**   Unfortunately I wasn't involved with that
part of the feast prep, and don't know how/what was done.

    Caointiarn


Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 23:39:02 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Fish recipes

kerric at pobox.alaska.net writes:
<< Has anyone used fish dishes in the feasts they prepare? >>

Yes, Both myself and HTL Thorstein has prepared and included fish dishes in
at least one course of every feast for the past few years. The dishes have
ranged from simple fried fish to eel pies. They dishes were over-all well
received.

<< If you have included fish recipes in feasts, how many did you prepare? >>

How many dishes? Fish? Assuming you mean dishes here, the usual practice here
is to include only one fish dish in the menu.

<<How did the feast attendees respond to them?>>

The response is variable with those liking fish raving and those not liking
fish showing little emotion or comment.

Ras


Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:30:54 -0400
From: Mary_HallSheahan at ademco.com
Subject: Re: SC - Fish recipes

Ostgardr regularly includes smoked whiting at late-winter feasts (partly
that's because we have access to the Brooklyn Terminal Market where many
miraculous things can be had at reasonable prices).

At the first (and so far only) feast I cooked, we served fish with an
egredouce sauce.  Frozen filets for convenience, whatever they had in bulk
at the Price Club.  We'd intended to fry them but due to kitchen
limitations we baked them instead.  I aimed at one small filet per person,
because this was as part of a 9-dish feast and portions of each individual
dish were kept small.  Egredouce is a godly sauce--it can be made ahead of
time, canned if necessary, goes well with a variety of meats, and reheats
like a dream.)

I've also seen mussels in a spiced broth served at an event, unfortunately
one mussel had a baby crab INSIDE the mussel...one of the scary-looking
crabs not a typically eaten crab--and a scientifically-fascinated server
wandered around showing it to everyone.  Her presentation kind of killed my
appetite for the dish that day...

Emme


Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 17:57:12 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Is Medieval Food Yucky?

THLRenata at aol.com wrote:
> I will be teaching a class at Great Western War III entitled "Is Medieval
> Food Yucky?", based in part on some discussions from this list about a year
> ago.
>
> The class is a discussion of some of the myths about medieval and
> Current-Middle-Ages food and the de-bunking thereof.
>
> I was hoping that some of the feast-mavens here would share some of their
> adventures in this area, like how they got 200 people to eat _______ and like
> it.

I had great success a few years ago with the cominee de poissons from Le
Menagier de Paris. This was at an EK Twelfth Night, and you haven't
lived until you've tried to get 400 Easterners (except perhaps for the
Carolingians and the Ostgardrians, in whose territories reside the two
big wholesale fish markets of the East Coast) to eat fish.

The cominee sauce ended up tasting a bit like a Singapore-style curry,
with ginger, saffron, pepper, almond milk, and, of course, copious
amounts of cumin. We then garnished the sauced fish (cod), pretty much
as a joke, with those awful canned fried onion rings which we happened
to have in our feast stores. I think one person complained, and the rest
pretty much inhaled the stuff with a sort of whooshing noise.

Of course the one who complained ended up as Queen a short time later;
it made things a bit interesting for me for a year or so...

Adamantius


Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 09:02:23 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Can medieval food be heart-smart?

ChannonM at aol.com writes:
<< However, unsauced, non breaded or [non]-deep fried
 fish is not what I have seen as being welcomed at feasts and I guess that's
 what I was alluding to. I >>

The first time I served fish at a feast it was plain whiting fillets deep
fried. There was none left at any of the tables although a rounded platter of
it was served at each table. King Ruslan came back to the kitchen to ask it
there was any he could take home with him. The 'no fish' at a feast thing is
simply no more than a myth.

Ras


Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 08:44:06 -0700
From: Anne-Marie Rousseau <acrouss at gte.net>
Subject: Let them eat fish! was Re: SC - Can medieval food be heart-smart?

hi all from Anne-Marie

You know, I was always told that "SCA people wont eat fish". And we have
two avowed piscatorially challenged individuals in our Culinary Guild. THis
not withstanding, every time we've served fish it got gobbled up. Now,
granted, we are VERY careful about the type (salmon and prawns vastly
preferred over cod and mussles, apparently), and did it in a very non
threatening way, but folks seemed to enjoy it.

For the perioide feast at Council of Crowns we had a few years back, we
served salmon and steamed mussels to great applause, and these were the
Kigns and Queens of the Known World (ie fighters and their gals). We also
served asparagus and notorious fortune cookies, but that's another story :).

But then, we get requests for seconds on salat, for gawds sake :).

So I would say that SCA people will eat fish, but I would suggest that it
not be the only meat, so those true carnivores out there can skip it and
still have a nice meal.

- --AM


Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 09:27:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeanne Stapleton <apiskp at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Let them eat fish! was Re: SC - Can medieval food be  heart-smart?

> For the perioide feast at Council of Crowns we had a few years back, we
> served salmon and steamed mussels to great applause, and these were the
> Kings and Queens of the Known World (ie fighters and their gals). We also
> served asparagus and notorious fortune cookies, but that's another story :).

...and it was *excellent*, as this satisfied consumer
can state.  The poached salmon made into a dragon
with cucumber scales was particularly fetching.

> But then, we get requests for seconds on salat, for gawds sake :).

Rorik did say, "Why are their flowers in my salad?"
but I ate all of mine and all of his.  Again, excellent.

> So I would say that SCA people will eat fish, but I would suggest that it
> not be the only meat, so those true carnivores out there can skip it and
> still have a nice meal.

Most people I personally know will relish well-
prepared salmon.  I know a few who won't touch any
kind of fish, even canned tuna, but they tend to
also be the ones who don't like any but the very
blandest of food.

Berengaria


Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 14:04:21 -0700
From: "Kathleen A. Roberts" <karobert at unm.edu>
Subject: Re: Christianity in SCA cookery. was Re: [Sca-cooks]
	pre-Columbian	foods
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

--On Wednesday, November 05, 2003 2:51 PM -0600 "Pixel, Goddess and Queen"
<pixel at hundred-acre-wood.com> wrote:
> Anybody who's actually served fish at a feast care to comment?

i have done salmon a number of times (when i could find it on sale for 2.99
lb... yes, it happens... or if it was a small feast) with good results.
used master huen's recipe 'to seeth fresh salmon' and it was a big hit.

once i cheated (period-wise) and used salmon pate from a local tiny bistro
as 'a little dad will do ya' on an appetizer plate.   they rough chopped
the ingredients on request, i had hubby pick it up that a.m., and it cost
me less than if i would have tried to make it myself!  of course, folks
were licking the plate on that one.

confession?  never been brave enuf to try a white fish... tho pickled
herring might find a place on an 'appetizer' course one day.

cailte
now new mexican born in maryland


Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 16:11:30 EST
From: BaronessaIlaria at aol.com
Subject: Re: Christianity in SCA cookery. was Re: [Sca-cooks]
	pre-Columbian	foods
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

In a message dated 11/5/2003 4:05:56 PM Eastern Standard Time,
karobert at unm.edu writes:
> Anybody who's actually served fish at a feast care to comment?
Not long ago I served the Cazuela de Salmon from de Nola that was posted on
this list and it was extremely well received. We even had a couple of folks
rumaging in the fridge during the night looking for leftovers.

I know that fish has been served here in Trimaris at other events as  
well, but I don't recall any specific comments about it.

Ilaria


Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 21:18:06 +0000
From: "Olwen the Odd" <olwentheodd at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Christianity in SCA cookery. was Re: [Sca-cooks]
	pre-Columbianfoods
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

> On Wed, 5 Nov 2003, Susan Fox-Davis wrote:
>> OK, steering this all back on topic:  what about Christian dietary laws
>> and why don't we ever seem to bother with them in the SCA?  I keep
>> trying to serve fish during Lent and all I get are complaints.  O
>> Tempura, O Morays! <grin, duck, run really fast!>
>>
>> Selene Colfox
>
> Hmmm. Well, around here we've had a Princess who was deathly allergic to
> fish, thus, no fish served at feasts during her reigns. Other than that, I
> think part of the reason is that for most people, fish=tuna salad,
> fish=tuna hotdish, fish=fish sticks, or fish=hyper-expensive swordfish
> steak. Also, fish is quite expensive here in the heartland. When I  
> bought
> for this last 12th night, I got pork butt for $.99/lb, but the cheapest
> fish I could get was salmon at $4.99/lb.
>
> Anybody who's actually served fish at a feast care to comment?
>
> Margaret

We made a star gazey pie for high table a while back.  Not only did none of
it come back, they came to the kitchen and asked for more.  When told we
only had made the one, they asked for the recipe!  For this occasion I made
it with fillets of fish instead of whole fish.  I wrapped the bacon to cover
the whole fillet and added a whole clove to not only act as the "eye" but to
hold that end of bacon in place.

We occasionally serve fillets of salmon and they are well recieved with
little returning to the kitchen.

I have been toying with some variations on making individual star gazey
pocket pies for buffets.

I will say that if anyone on this list is ever going to make something for
Mary Grace of Gatlain to eat, just make a star gazey pie and stand back!

Olwen


Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 15:19:23 -0600
From: dailleurs at liripipe.com
Subject: Re: Christianity in SCA cookery. was Re: [Sca-cooks]
	pre-Columbian	foods
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>, "Cooks within
	the SCA"	<sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

hey all from Anne-Marie

we frequently serve fish in camp, especially on Fridays (Fast day and  
all that ;)) but I've found in the SCA, fish tends to be snubbed,  
except salmon for some reason. FOlks will inhale salmon but say "they  
dont like fish".

problem is we have two of our active cooks who have such a strong  
dislike for anything piscatorially inclined ;) that they cant stand to  
have it cooked while they're in the kitchen.

Also, we've found it can be tricky to prepare fish well in bulk (ie for  
100+ diners). you dont want to over cook it, and unlike a roast that  
can sit and cool a bit and still be nice, tepid fish can be rather  
unhappy.

We had good results though by placing large salmon fillets (we can get  
the stuff megacheap here in seattle, year round) in shallow pans with  
poaching liquid, etc, cover them in foil and bake. As long as the pan  
is covered they didnt tend to dry out, and gentle poaching seems to  
keep them from getting rubbery. We left the covered pans on a warm  
griddle to keep them warm until they were ready to serve, and they were  
dished up in preheated heavy ceramic plates (we ran them through the  
commercial dishwasher just before serving)

We've also done shrimp things for feasts, but that was really touchy  
(over cook them and they turn VERY rubbery). We planned on a small  
serving per person (like 3 large prawns) as only one small tidbit in a  
much larger meal, and figured about 1/3 of our diners wouldnt eat them  
(which made those of us who like seafood that much happier ;))

Its also interesting to note that when we cooked a feast for the Known  
World Crowns some years ago, everyone specifically said they liked fish  
and seafood EXCEPT the local royalty ;).

so yes, we can do fish for feasts but must take into account the strong  
aversions of a few (especially those few who are also useful ;)), and  
the sometimes touchy nature of bulk production.

--Anne-Marie
PS the ercipes we used were the stuffed salmon and buttered shrimps in  
the Elizabethan Feudal Gourmet pamphlets.
http://www.liripipe.com/mcg/

hows that for a slick transition to a crass commercial plug? ;)


Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 16:24:10 -0500
From: "Barbara Benson" <vox8 at mindspring.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Fish in Feast (was alot of things)
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> When I bought for this last 12th night, I got pork butt for $.99/lb,  
> but the cheapest fish I could get was salmon at $4.99/lb.
>
> Margaret
> Anybody who's actually served fish at a feast care to comment?

Greetings,

I have served salmon at 2 feasts, the same recipie both times. It is the
Salmon Casserole recipie from de Nola. I know it has been posted numerous
times to this list. The first time I served it was at a 3 day event where
there were 2 feasts. The main (Sat) night was cooked by Maestro Niccolo and
he also served a fish dish. I believe it was a trout in pastry. There were
several comments afterward about fish being served successfully two  
nights in a row.

I managed the salmon by serving it as a small portion in the third course
along with another meat. I believe Niccolo found a really great price on
frozen trout. I think expense is a major concern, but I also think a lot of
people are afraid of the additional sanitary concerns that accompany  
fish.

The perception is that fish, more so than the other meats, is sensitive to
temperature and if a person does not know what they are doing then people
could get really sick. This, I believe, can be gotten around by establishing
yourself as a good cook and getting people to trust that you will not put a
food in front of them that is going to get them sick. Of course, all of this
good-will can be set back by the next cook who sends out chicken that is
bloody at the bone. Because if you cannot even cook chicken right then there
is no way that I am gonna eat your fish (speaking as the hypothetical  
feast goer).

  There is a fish dish out of Geuter Spise that I really want to try:
19. This is a good salmon dish.
Take a salmon, scale it, split and cut the two halves in pieces. Chop
parsley, sage, take ground ginger, pepper, anise, and salt to taste.  Make a
coarse dough according to the size of the pieces, sprinkle the pieces with
the spices, and cover them completely with the dough. If you can fit them
into a mould, then do so. In this way you can prepare pike, trout, bream,
and bake each one in its own dough. If it is a meat-day, however, you can
prepare chickens, partridges, pigeons, and pheasants, provided that you have
the noulds, and fry them in lard or cook them in their moulds. Take chicken
breast or other good meat, THis will improve your art of cooking even more,
and don't oversalt.

Glad Tidings,
Serena da Riva


Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 18:29:36 -0500
From: Morgana Abbey <morgana.abbey at juno.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Fish at feasts
To: Sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

I've noticed that the biggest problem (at least in these parts) is that,
too often, the cooks try to serve a delicate hot fish in the first
course.  Now if, as is usual, things run late and feast gets pushed back,
you have fish-flavored shingles.  I got around this by serving a cold
dish 2 years ago when I cooked Twelfth Night.  [Trout in Orange
Marinade--adapted from Marcella Hazan.]

So I advise people to serve fish cold in the first course and save the
hot dishes for later courses when you know you have control over the
serving time.

Morgana


Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 19:00:48 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Christianity in SCA cookery. was Re: [Sca-cooks]
	pre-Columbianfoods
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

In Oklahoma, frozen whiting is about the cheapest, $1.50-2/poundin bulk.
I've served it pickled and as floured and fried fillets with an apple/wine
sauce.  In all cases, the fish has disappeared.

I've steered clear of the pickled fish in recent years because I don't have
a period recipe.  I did the fried fillets as a mixed fish and chicken course
to handle some of the dietary problems of the local baron and baroness. He
is allergic to chicken, she detests fish.  The chicken was served with an
orange sauce, which led to people experimenting with the sauces on various
things all through the feast.

Bear


Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 19:10:02 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Fish was  Christianity in SCA cookery.
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> confession?  never been brave enuf to try a white fish... tho pickled
> herring might find a place on an 'appetizer' course one day.
>
> cailte

Years ago, I did a Scandinavian feast (back before I was seriously working
with period recipes) and sent the pickled whiting out with the first course.
The Queen had three helpings of it before the Baroness leaned over and
suggested that she might want to save room for the next two courses.

  The Queen, having had as much food presented as most feasts of the day, 
hadn't realized just how extensive the meal was.

Do try white fish some day.  The whiting fillets with the apple wine sauce
beats pickled fish hands down, if you have a grill surface big enough to
push the batches through quickly and serve straight from the grill to 
the platter to the table.

Bear


Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 12:18:11 -0800 (PST)
From: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fish at feast
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-coks at ansteorra.org>

From: Ruth Tannahill <rtanhil at fast.net>
> Lady Brighid ni Chiarran (spelling--I'msorry)

That's okay -- I can't spell your patronymic, either.  :-)

> served a fish in bitter orange sauce that was out of this world.

::blush:; Thank you.  That was the Cazuela de Salmon (Casserole of  
Salmon) from de Nola.
My redaction and several others are in the Florilegium:
http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-MEATS/salmon-msg.text

> Berelinde

Brighid ni Chiarain


Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 09:49:46 -0500
From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Whole Fish was Christianity
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

>   oh, and the reproving looks
> they have gotten from a baked fish with its head still on.

The problem that I encountered with whole fish as a diner is that
very few people know what to do when presented with a large whole
bone in fish that is supposed to serve the entire table.

The fish arrives and sits there on the platter because few people
know how to debone and then serve pieces from a whole fish. Also
few diners have the proper sort of knife at hand to handle a whole
fish.

I went up and down a row of tables one evening at a feast, deboning
several platters worth, so that people could or would eat the fish
course.

My feeling was that it would have gone back to the kitchen untouched had
someone not done it.

Johnnae llyn Lewis


Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 05:22:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Marcus Loidolt <mjloidolt at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Sca-cooks Digest, Vol 27, Issue 25
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Benedicte,
Abot Johann from the middle of the Middle here,

There is a good rule of thumb, according to a number
of period sources, to have three 'meats' Fish, Fowl,
Field. If a guest can't eat from one, they can from
another. Granted the Fish might be preserved as salted
or kippered (Herring seems to be the favorite
here...long story inserted, long ago I was doing my
second?? Feast, and was determined to serve some sort
of fish, indeed kippered herring. I was warned that no
one would eat it and that the barony would not pay for
it! Okay says I, it'll be served as on table with the
crudites and I'll pay for it from my own pocket!
So it happened, the feeding frenzy and piracy that
occurred is still talked about, those tables that
liked it (and there were three that were really hooked
on it) stole from those that either didn't like it,
which is fine, and from those that were just a little
to slow to recognize what they had in front of them!!
LOL, Then they tried to bribe head table out of their
fish too!! Since then no one ever really complains
about me serving kippered herring (or any other fish)
at my feasts.

Johann von Metten


Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 17:08:58 +1200
From: Adele de Maisieres <ladyadele at paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] fish at SCA feasts
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Stefan li Rous wrote:
> I keep hearing this phrase about not eating fish, but I've heard many
> other comments to the contrary. Me? I'd love to see a lot more, well-
> prepared fish at SCA feasts.

I served escabeche (fish poached in wine and vinegar and allowed to cool
and jelly in it's cooking liquid-- delicious) at a feast once.  A third
of the dishes (I serve in messes) were essentially untouched (from the
tables with the youngest and least adventurous eaters, I guess).  The
other two-thirds were scraped (and in one or two cases licked, I
suspect) clean.  I'd certainly serve it again.  I've also had salmon,
trout, mussels, and plain fried fish at feasts and I don't remember
anyone complaining.  I'd go so far as to say that fish is quite popular.

> So, has anyone served eel? How well did it go over? So far, I've only
> had eel out of a can.

I don't think I have, but it would probably go down just fine-- smoked
freshwater eel tends to be seen as a treat here (New Zealand).  I don't
think I've seen unsmoked eel for sale, but you can fish them out of any
stream anyway.
--  
Adele de Maisieres


Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 20:48:49 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"
	<adamantius.magister at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] fish at SCA feasts
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

On Aug 12, 2005, at 12:50 AM, Stefan li Rous wrote:
>> I was warned that no
>> one would eat it and that the barony would not pay for it!
>
> I keep hearing this phrase about not eating fish, but I've heard
> many other comments to the contrary. Me? I'd love to see a lot
> more, well-prepared fish at SCA feasts.

We serve fish pretty frequently at our feasts, but we live near the
ocean, which makes seafood readily available and also probably helps
provide a receptive crowd. Favorite period fish dishes include
cuminade de poissons from Taillevent and/or Le menagier, any of
several egredouce recipes, saumon gentil from, IIRC, The Forme of
Cury, and a 17th-century English mussel recipe whose source I forget
(but can probably locate) whose product is virtually
indistinguishable from modern moules mariniere.

> So, has anyone served eel? How well did it go over? So far, I've
> only had eel out of a can.

Smoked eel is exceptional. I've never served eel at an event, but I
vaguely recall that al-Sayyid Ras al Zib served some kind of
crustades for a fish day that involved salmon and eels, on at least
one occasion.

Adamantius


Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 18:50:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alexa <mysticgypsy1008 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] fish at SCA feasts
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

I helped with a feast over in Caid that served Mussels
and also had a smoked salmon dish that had a mustard
sauce on it.  I am not one for most seafood.
(occasionally shrimp, scallops and very picky about
regular fish).  I did not try the mussels, but many
people enjoyed them.  The salmon, I tried that, and
for fish, it was pretty yummy.  I don’t think we had
much left over.

Alexa
Now in VA


Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 20:54:27 -0700
From: "Nick Sasso" <grizly at mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] fish at SCA feasts
To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

-----Original Message-----
<<<<Smoked eel is exceptional. I've never served eel at an event, but I
vaguely recall that al-Sayyid Ras al Zib served some kind of
crustades for a fish day that involved salmon and eels, on at least
one occasion.
Adamantius>>>>

Did grilled, stuffed eels at my last feast in Meridies a couple of years
ago, as a sort of taster dish.  Those who tried it were pleased and calling
for more.  Some adventurous folks who never tried it, gave it a go.  It was a
pleasant way to introduce the dish, and have me interact with my guests
while my expert kitchen hands kept the feast moving.

Weird food as a 'try if you'd like' can be inviting and less pressure  
For the curious.

Then there was the roasted orange salmon Serena de Riva foisted off to huge
success  at the 'feast of the twice-cooked dishes' :o)

niccolo difrancesco


Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 00:22:06 GMT
From: "morgana.abbey at juno.com" <morgana.abbey at juno.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Subject: Re:  kitchen tips
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

The best way to put fish in the first course is to serve it cold.  When I planned my first feast, I got a lot of static about the fish course.  Mostly it was that 1) no one would eat fish and  2) it will be dried out.

Well, if you try to put a hot dish in the first course and something (royalty) delays the start of feast, yes it will be fish-flavored shingles hitting the tables.  A cold dish went over so well that one half of one portion was all that came back to the kitchen.

Save the hot dish for the second course.  You just need to time it so that you're firing the fish as the first course is going out.

Morgana


Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 09:09:22 -0600
From: "Kathleen A Roberts" <karobert at unm.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Subject: Re:  kitchen tips
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On Thu, 21 Aug 2008 00:22:06 GMT
  "morgana.abbey at juno.com" <morgana.abbey at juno.com> wrote:
<<< The best way to put fish in the first course is to serve 
it cold.  When I planned my first feast, I got a lot of 
static about the fish course.  Mostly it was that 1) 
noone would eat fish and  2) it will be dried out. >>>

i make little salmon tartlets (piggy-pie shaped) that can 
be served hot or cold, usually cold, on the appetizer 
tray.   many go out, none come back.

cailte


Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 14:41:05 -0500
From: "otsisto" <otsisto at socket.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Subject: Re:  kitchen tips
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Take the "no one will eat fish" or "fighters only want meat" with a cup of
salt.

One year I autocrated, I also assisted the Head Cook. We serve fish (pickled
herring - appetizers, broiled salmon- 2nd coarse). People ate it all, even
the fighters. The only leftovers we had was the bashed neeps, fattigmann
cookies and strawberry pudding. The latter two went to the post revel.

De


Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 15:44:00 -0400
From: euriol <euriol at ptd.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Subject: Re:  kitchen tips
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I have served both Shrimp & Salmon successfully in the second course of a
feast. The shrimp have been served both cold and hot. The salmon was
actually baked whole and displayed whole in front of high table and served
from there to the tables.

Euriol


Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2008 08:59:16 -0400
From: "Kerri Martinsen" <kerrimart at mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Subject: Re: kitchen tips
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

but at what point to you try to hold to period menus?
Most that I have seen (well, Italian) start with lighter food  - fish - and
end with the "big heavy food"

I did sea bass first (well, after soup) in my last feast mainly BECAUSE I
wanted to be sure it would all be eaten.  I didn't care so much if chicken
got thrown away, but the sea bass?  Not that there was any of it left
anyway..even the plates came back clean.

I sent the fish to the table in parchment envelopes.  There is some
documentation for cooking food in paper packs (albeiet not much) but I ran
with it.  The idea of having HOT fish at the table was a much desired on.

Vitha

On 8/22/08, Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com> wrote:
<<< I never put expensive foods on the first course because that is when your
diners will be their hungriest.  I always put chicken and other fowl dishes
in the first course.  Beef and other meats in the second course and fish in
the third course because I can buy a lot less because by then the diners
will be very full and will only want a bite or two of anything.

Huette >>>


Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 06:23:06 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] fish at feasts
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I've served pickled whiting, baked whiting and fried whiting and been 
pleasantly surprised when they disappeared.  I've also served salmon, smoked 
and poached, without problem, although there was one feast where some of the 
tables failed to realize there were two sides to a salmon.  I'm fairly 
sparing with fish because it can be a budget buster in Oklahoma, but it is 
well received when I do serve it.

For several years, we had a Baron who couldn't eat chicken and a Baroness 
who detested fish, so I would divide a course between chicken and fish to 
meet their requirements.  At one feast I served chicken with orange sauce 
and fried whiting with an apple and wine sauce.  I later found out that the 
sauces were very popular, that people were playing mix and match with the 
sauces on other food and that some people tried them on the roast beef in 
the next course.

Bear


Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 12:56:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] fish at feasts
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

I have served salmon at several of my banquets here in Angels and it always has been received very well.  I have had several people tell me that they usually hate fish, but they loved how I made it.  I.e. Poached in beer with parsley, rosemary and thyme.  For those of you who want the recipe, check the Florilegium, as I have already posted it here two or three times.

Huette


Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 14:38:56 -0500
From: "Euriol of Lothian" <euriol at ptd.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fish at feasts
To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

<<< Have you ever served fish at a feast? How? How was it received?

Madhavi
An Crosaire, Trimaris >>>

I have served whole roasted salmon at feast. The salmon was then brought out whole to high table where it was cut and served out onto plates to be served at each table. I served it with Cameline Sauce on the side. Carving the fish in front of high table was, at least I thought, a nice way to present it. The bones are big enough that it was easy to eliminate most of them before it got served to a table. I have also served shrimp (dressed in vinegar) and red snapper (served with red wine sauce) successfully at feasts. I would recommend that you portion no more than 2oz of fish/seafood per person. I'll add that there was no leftovers of any of these dishes. I also did a butter fried shrimp recipe where it was dressed in seasoned flour before it was fried, then fresh ginger was grated right over the top.

Euriol


Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 14:40:19 -0500
From: Gretchen Beck <grm at andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fish at feasts
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

--On Thursday, November 20, 2008 2:29 PM -0500 jimandandi at cox.net wrote:

<<< I am dallying with the idea of serving fish at a feast I'm doing in
February, based on Chiqart and Menagier of Paris. What I would love to do
is a whole roast fish "swimming" on a bed of decorated rice, with green
sorrel verjuice on top and sprinkled with small whole shrimp. I have been
warned away from doing this dish because "people don't eat fish at
feasts" and "what about the bones?". So.

Have you ever served fish at a feast? How? How was it received?

If you have not, would you like to? >>>

We're in a landlocked area where fish is not a normal part of the everyday
diet (except for the ubiquitous fried fish sandwich), so we heard something
of the same thing.

That said, I've served a couple of fish dishes at feasts -- with
considerable success. There were some people who didn't eat it, and some
who didn't like it, but most people both ate and liked. I'll always regret
the day I didn't save some of the calamari side dish (served after the
manner described in Platina). "I'll get plenty back, people only sample
wierd food". Not a bite, not a drip, not a drab came back to the kitchen.
Another big success was a filet (essentiall a 1/2 of the fish slab,
deskinned and deboned -- as you buy it at the warehouse club) of salmon
roasted on a grill then poached in wine served with a long pepper sauce.  I
think your plan sounds lovely.

The trick is to make sure that fish isn't the only thing for people to eat,
and that there are things to eat that the fish hasn't touched.  Another
trick is, if it's supposed to be served hot, make sure it hits the table
piping hot. Lukewarm and mostly cold fish that is supposed to be hot is
just, well, yuck... Put out little plates for the bones -- people are
smart, they'll figure out what to do with them (after all, they do it with
chicken on a regular basis).

toodles, margaret


Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 14:50:30 -0500
From: ranvaig at columbus.rr.com
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fish at feasts
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

<<< Have you ever served fish at a feast? How? How was it received? >>>

I wasn't the head cook, but a few years ago, one of our local feasts served a whole salmon to each table.  Salmon has rather big bones, and the meat is easily separated.  Some tables picked the bones clean, a couple didn't seem to notice that the fish had two sides, one table hardly touched it. Most were in between.  Overall, they ate about 75% what was served. During cleanup, I picked apart the carcasses and took the leftovers home. :)

Fish won't stand reheating or even being kept hot for long, when its ready you have to serve it quickly. 

Ranvaig


Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:04:08 -0500
From: ranvaig at columbus.rr.com
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fish at feasts
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

<<< I wasn't the head cook, but a few years ago, one of our local feasts served a whole salmon to each table. >>>

Also she got them at $0.99 a pound,  each fish was probably 4 pounds, well over the suggested 2 oz per person.  With current fish prices 2 oz would seem enough to serve.  Allowing for the bones, for a table of 8, maybe 20 oz for a whole fish.

Ranvaig


Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 14:10:19 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fish at feasts
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I have served poached salmon, pickled whiting, and, most recently, lightly 
floured, fried whiting filets with an apple and wine sauce on the side.  All 
were well received and I had no leftovers.  That being said, all of these 
were prepared in ways that were not unfamiliar to the people at the feast, 
not everyone was enamored of the dishes, and I would have had half the 
salmon come back except that someone realized that a whole salmon has two 
sides.

The whiting filets with the wine sauce were served with a chicken in orange 
sauce, because the Baron could eat fish, but not chicken, and the Baroness 
just the opposite.  Having two meats and two sauces together in the same 
course made for some interesting experimentation at table.

There are always people who will eat fish at feasts, so "people don't eat 
fish at feasts" is in error.  What people don't want is badly prepared fish. 
As for the bones, select your fish and manner of preparation to minimize the 
problem.  I do try to keep from being too outre in the preparation.  And I 
make sure the fish is one dish in many, so it can be bypassed by anyone who 
doesn't want it.

The question I would ask myself is, "is the idea of presenting my audience 
with a whole fish with the head on going to upset them?"

Bear


Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:20:25 -0500
From: "Euriol of Lothian" <euriol at ptd.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fish at feasts
To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

The salmon I got for my feasts were probably closer to 20 pounds each. It
was hard to get them whole into the oven.

Euriol


Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:27:01 -0500
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fish at feasts
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On Nov 20, 2008, at 2:31 PM, <jimandandi at cox.net> wrote:
<<< Have you ever served fish at a feast? How? >>>

Lobster in blankmanger, mussels in butter and vinegar, oysters in  
gravy, smoked whiting with mustard sauce, fresh whiting fried and  
served with a "sober" [dark] raisin sauce and any of several variants:  
aigre douce, rappee, etc. Salmon many ways, from tarts, to poached, to  
poached dumplings in a sauce, shrimp with aged vinegar, shrimp  
sausages, scallop crepinettes, escabeche of cod and cominee / cuminade  
de poissons, also made with cod. The last is a favorite of mine,  
served in a thick, cumin-flavored almond-milk sauce.

And Lobster Thermidor aux Crevettes with a Mornay sauce served in the  
Provencale manner with shallots and aubergines, garnished with truffle  
pate, brandy, and a fried egg on top and Spam.

<<< How was it received? >>>

Generally pretty well. I live in a group that has one of the larger  
seafood wholesale markets on the Eastern Seaboard in its backyard, so  
mostly it's a way of life. I'm pretty careful with portion control,  
allowing two to three ounces per portion cooked, buying about three  
times that raw and untrimmed to allow for head, bone, skin and fin  
waste, and shrinkage in cooking. Some will eat more than three ounces,  
some none, most will enjoy it and there may be two or three extremely  
vocal and rude people voicing their objections. If I run out I at  
least know some went out to every table and there's other food, and  
that's better than wasting it.

Adamantius (who don't got much Spam in him)


Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:43:52 -0500
From: ranvaig at columbus.rr.com
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fish at feasts
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

<<< The salmon I got for my feasts were probably closer to 20 pounds each. It
was hard to get them whole into the oven. >>>

That was four pounds (or more) of salmon on each table, maybe 10 or 12 fish altogether.  Not one fish carved for the whole hall.

Ranvaig


Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 09:44:21 +1300
From: Antonia Calvo <ladyadele at paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fish at feasts
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

The best-received single dish I've ever cooked was seared tuna dressed 
with oil and honey.  I've also served salmon, monkfish and shrimp, and 
I've seen others serve white sea fish, trout and mussels.  All those 
things have gone down fine.  (What about the bones, exactly?)

My feeling is that, in general, you should have a good variety of stuff 
on offer.  If some people don't eat something, that's their hard luck 
and there's more for everyone else.
-- 
Antonia di Benedetto Calvo


Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 10:05:51 +1300
From: Antonia Calvo <ladyadele at paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fish at feasts
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Ah, that's another thing I've had at feasts-- smoked mackerel.  That 
goes down well, too.  And scallops.
-- 
Antonia di Benedetto Calvo


Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 16:16:03 -0500
From: "Euriol of Lothian" <euriol at ptd.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fish at feasts
To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I think I had two for the whole hall, but I think that was for about 100
people, one of the salmon was a little smaller than the other. But buying it
whole like that, I got a good deal price wise.

Euriol

-----Original Message-----
<<< The salmon I got for my feasts were probably closer to 20 pounds each. It
was hard to get them whole into the oven. >>>

That was four pounds (or more) of salmon on each table, maybe 10 or 12 fish
altogether.  Not one fish carved for the whole hall.

Ranvaig


Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 16:47:56 -0500
From: "Ginny Beatty" <ginbeatty at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fish at feasts
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

For a Russian-themed feast a long time ago, I served a whitefish soup (Ukha)
and it went over well. About 1 quart/table was about the right amount to
serve. Not bad for the meat and 'tater crowd I usually feed. :)

Gwyneth


Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 16:59:57 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fish at feasts
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

You don't indicate how many people you are serving or how many
tables. Can you provide those tables with hot fish all at the same time?
I personally would take and test this dish out on a group first just to see
how it goes over locally. Are people prepared to debone a whole fish at 
table?

That takes a certain skillset. Many people can't do it without destroying
the fish and scattering the bones about and in a dimly lit hall that's even
more problematic. Do you have someone or a couple of people that could serve
the fish and debone them at table?

Johnnae

jimandandi at cox.net wrote:
<<< I am dallying with the idea of serving fish at a feast I'm doing in February, based on Chiqart and Menagier of Paris. What I would love to do is a whole roast fish "swimming" on a bed of decorated rice, with green sorrel verjuice on top and sprinkled with small whole shrimp. I have been warned away from doing this dish because "people don't eat fish at feasts" and "what about the bones?". So.
Have you ever served fish at a feast? How? How was it received?
If you have not, would you like to?
Curious,Madhavi  An Crosaire, Trimaris >>>


Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 16:04:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fish at feasts
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I served poached salmon at a feast for 300+.  It was a period recipe, poached in beer.  Everyone loved it.  A few people later told me that they normally hated fish, but loved what I served.

I have also done pickled herring, which went over very well.

I also considered doing lutefisk, but turned it into a subtlety/joke dish and served almond jello instead, molded like a fish.  Only two people complained about the substitution.

Huette


Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 08:34:40 -0500
From: "Jim and Andi Houston" <jimandandi at cox.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Fish success! Thank you all and recipe
To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who shared their success stories
serving fish at feasts. I may never do a feast without fish again!

I wanted to do the "whole fish swimming on a bed of decorated rice" thing.
It worked! People ate it! It was relatively easy, not too expensive, and
really impressive.

Whole Poached Fish Swimming on a Bed of Decorated Rice with Sorrel Verjus
Fed 75 people as part of a large feast

7 lb whole fish, cleaned and gutted, smile and tail intact (I found whole
fresh Mahi-mahi for $2.99/lb)
Stems of parsley, tops of celery, whole peppercorns
1/2 bottle of verjus or white wine

5 lb basmati rice
1/4 lb butter
1/2 cup oil
3 tbl salt
20 c water
1/2 lb butter
Teaspoon of saffron threads
1 lb slivered almonds

1/2 bottle of verjus
2 bunches fresh sorrel
1 bunch parsley
Salt and sugar

In a very large pot, melt butter and oil together. Add rice and toss
continuously until at least half of the rice is opaque. Add water and salt
and bring to a full rolling boil. Immediately cover tightly and pile cans on
top of the lid to that no steam escapes. Put in a warm place like on top of
the convection oven. Leave it alone for 30 minutes. After 30 minutes check
the rice for done-ness, it should be perfectly steamed and separate. Melt
butter, crush saffron thread with a mortar and pestle, add to hot butter,
add slivered almonds. Pour butter over rice and stir through, carefully so
as not to break up the rice grains too much. Put cover back on rice.

Coarsely chop sorrel and parsley. Throw in food processor. Process slowly
while pouring in enough verjuice to make a thin sauce. Taste and add salt
and sugar until sharpness is just barely blunted. (This sauce was AMAZING)

Find a shallow pan large enough for fish. Put any herbs or stock veggies on
the bottom, then lay fish on top, then pour on wine or verjus, then pour
water on just to barely cover fish. Bring fish up to a simmer and simmer
until cooked through. 

To assemble: Find tray long enough for fish. Pile with rice and make a ditch
in the middle. Using 4 people with 2 spatulas each, lift fish out of
poaching liquid. Lay on rice. Using plates as stabilizers, turn fish so it's
on its belly in the "ditch" of the rice. Fluff the rice. Take IMMEDIATELY
out to the hall, parade around, bring it back to the kitchen. Quickly take
the fish off the rice using plates. Do NOT break the fish! Using forks,
start lifting the flesh off one side of the fish. If you move fast and the
fish is still hot, it will lift right off the bones. Once most of the flesh
is taken off, lift out the tail, spine and head in one piece. Don't forget
the eat the cheeks! That's the best part of the fish! Then the rest of the
flesh is left. Split fish and rice into platters for service, and serve.
This must happen very fast as the fish cools quickly, I think we did it in
less than 5 minutes using 4 people.


Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 20:11:19 -0400
From: Elaine Koogler <kiridono at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Grilled Tuna - recipe for my upcoming feast
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I did the same recipe some years back for a Mediterranean feast and it was
very well received.  I have a fish monger that sells me really great fish
for very good prices...got a wonderful piece of sushi-grade tuna from him.
We sliced the loin and grilled it, then served it with the sauce.  Some
folks who normally hate fish...won't eat fish...no, wouldn't touch it with a
10 foot pole (or even an 8 foot Czech)....thought it was steak or some other
meat!!  I managed to find an orange marinade made with Seville oranges at a
local store that caters to Latino cuisine.  It had relatively few additives
to it and worked out very well.

Kiri

On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 6:37 PM, Euriol of Lothian <euriol at ptd.net> wrote:
<<< I'm currently in the process of planning a feast for the end of May that is
based on Spanish Recipes and testing recipes out of Ruperto de Nola's
"Libre del Coch"  and flipping through the pages of the book I saw a recipe for
Grilled Swordfish and Grilled Tuna. I thought to myself, I would like to
make one of these for my feast. So at the store yesterday I found some
frozen tuna steaks and thought I'd give the tunae recipe a go. Mind you, I
had only glanced at the recipes about two weeks ago and could not remember
any of the details. With tuna in hand and whatever was in my cabinet I
decided to cook it for dinner tonight. Rereading the recipes I saw that the
treatment of the sauce was very similar. >>>

<the end>
Edited by Mark S. Harris	feasts-fish-msg	Page 22 of 22