Stefan's Florilegium

child-kitchen-msg

child-kitchen-msg - 11/22/00

Comments on children being in the kitchen during feast preperation.

NOTE: See also the files: children-msg, headcooks-msg, chd-actvites-msg,
chd-ck-clsses-msg, p-cook-child-msg, feast-serving-msg, high-table-msg.

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NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that
I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some
messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium.
These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with
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Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THL Stefan li Rous
mark.s.harris@motorola.com stefan@florilegium.org
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From: mfdenton@postoffice.utas.edu.au (The Cheshire Cat)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 15:04:12 +1000
Subject: SC - asbestos undergarments (silly)

Geneveive wrote:
>Who seems to be making more public mistakes than usual lately and is
>looking for some asbestos undergarments.

They'd also be handy for long periods shuttling roasts from a rather hot
oven to the table ready to be taken away by the servers, or cleaning the
ovens while they were still on. Let me know if you find any. Could use
some extra protection. Last time I was in the kitchen I was crouching in
front of the oven, lifting out a roast when someone let little terrors
(children) into the kitchen. Little kids have no regard for the safety of
others and playfully gave me a push. Sianan's balance, not very good at
the best of times, went off and she fell forward banging her cheek against
a *VERY* hot grille. To this day I still sport an interesting lattice of
scarring on my cheek and forehead. Not too noticable, but still there.

regards
- -Sianan

Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:17:10 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD@Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - horror stories (was re: fake intestines)

>This one didn't happen to me personally; but I was there for the whole thing.
> A feastocrat asked the 12-year-old daughter of the head of my house (from a
>family of really great cooks) to "be in charge" of an entire course. She
>patiently researched and (with lots of help) recreated the recipes -- a
>lovely beef dish and a green olive soup; and no, Ras, I don't have the
>recipes or source <grin> -- and had us over for dinner a couple of times
>trying them out. I think they were perioid rather than period; but she
>worked her little heart out and the test runs were terrific!
>
>She showed up the morning of the feast, armed with notes and information...
>and was told by the Great and Mighty Feastocrat that, since she was so young,
>she was not allowed to touch the knives or come near the stove. He refused
>to take her advice on the dishes and prepared the recipes HIS way.
>
<deleted>
> - kat

How amazingly discourteous. I am the tyrant of my kitchen and I
probably treat people badly in the heat of the moment, but to invite a
guest cook into your sanctum, then slam the door in their face, that is
truly atrocious behavior.

You have given me a wonderful idea for a small local feast. Have the
children who are interested in cooking research and prepare the dishes
with a small group of adults providing overall supervision and support.
Keep the feast between 30 and 50 people, so it won't be murderously
tiring on the cooks.

I don't know when I'll be able to do something like this, but I am
certainly going to keep it in mind.

Bear

Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 13:14:39 -0500
From: "Decker, Margaret" <margaret@Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: SC - Horror story

This occured about 15 years ago but it's one that I've never forgotten. I
was heading up the prep crew for a very large feast and one of our helpers
was the single mother of a two year old. It was his nap time so she put him
on the floor behind where she was working on a blanket to sleep. some time
later he woke up and none of us noticed him so he wandered out of the prep
area and into the ajoining kitchen. The head cook was removing a very large
pan of roast beef and the juices were about an inch deep in the three inch
high pan. The baby walked up to him at just the wrong moment and in order to
not damage either the child or the roasts the cook managed to burn himself
all down the front of his tunic with hot meat juice. A quick thinking
assistant pulled the tunic off, washed the cook down and hollered for the
local chiergion who happened to be a Doctor. While the burns were very
painful the quick action saved the cook from permanent disfiguration, we
learned never to allow unwatched children anywhere near a busy kitchen.

Margarite du Battenhelm

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 08:52:58 EDT
From: DeeWolff@aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Worst feast ever...

In a message dated 10/18/00 7:58:26 AM, dminmin@hotmail.com writes:
> The last feast I cooked someone made the
>14 yr old helping out leave, since there is supposedly a rule against
>children in the kitchen. This was brought about by an accident at a feast
>according to the pronouncer of said rule.
>Maddalena

News to me! But it would change my entire focus in the SCA........I teach
kids to cook in the SCA.

And I love the help in the kitchen. Kids are a great asset. It's a shame we
often overlook them. My best helpers are under 18. They don't throw their
weight around (I'm Count so and so) and they don't take it personally if all
you have left to do is chop the onions.

Andrea M.
(who lives in the East<rules, what rules?Got any tea? Boston Harbour is
looking a bit pale>)

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 09:42:15 -0400
From: Angie Malone <alm4@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: SC -children in kitchen:was worst feast ever...

At 11:57 AM 10/18/00 +0000, you wrote:
>On the topic of kids does anyone know of any rules restricting those under
>either 16 or 18 from the kitchen. The last feast I cooked someone made
>the 14 yr old helping out leave, since there is supposedly a rule against
>children in the kitchen. This was brought about by an accident at a feast
>according to the pronouncer of said rule.
>Maddalena

My Dad owned a restaurant in NJ and there were certain pieces of kitchen
machinery a child under 16 couldn't use. These were things like the meat
slicer, the automatic dishwasher (very hot water), the grill, and the hot
dog machine (one of those flat roller things that the hot dogs sit on and
cook, I am probably missing some of the other machinery I couldn't touch(I
was way under 16 yrs old).

Laws might be different from state to state. Basically use common sense.

Angeline

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 10:38:34 EDT
From: CorwynWdwd@aol.com
Subject: Re: SC -children in kitchen:was worst feast ever...

>On the topic of kids does anyone know of any rules restricting those under
>either 16 or 18 from the kitchen. The last feast I cooked someone made
>the 14 yr old helping out leave, since there is supposedly a rule against
>children in the kitchen.

Rules vary from Kingdom to Kingdom as well as from State to State. Speaking
from experience, I'd check it out with both authorities and know how solid
the ground was on which I stood in the future. Any actual rules are written
and are available for reading in either your Kingdom or State lawbooks.

I've found a lot of people who should know better assume there are rules
where their aren't any, or are just making it up as they go along for
whatever reason. I always assume the former, as I never attribute to malice
what can be explained by ignorance. I'm not saying this is the case, and
naturally, common sense should rule, but I find it's better to know the rules
beforehand if possible.

I have also found it's easy to forget just how young some of our young people
are, which is another reason to use common sense (as if it WERE common <G>).

Corwyn

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 09:45:03 -0700
From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm@efn.org>
Subject: Re: kids in kitchen, was: SC - Worst feast ever...

deborah minyard wrote:
> On the topic of kids does anyone know of any rules restricting those under
> either 16 or 18 from the kitchen. The last feast I cooked someone made the
> 14 yr old helping out leave, since there is supposedly a rule against
> children in the kitchen. This was brought about by an accident at a feast
> according to the pronouncer of said rule.

I've never heard of such a thing. It is my experience that kids are more
careful- perhaps because they are more conscious of what they are doing-
and that it is absent-minded (or in-a-hurry, or drunk, or worse) adults
who have the nasty accidents. When my son sliced his hand a couple of
weeks ago, it was because someone else bumped into him, not because he's
14.

Sounds to me like someone simply doesn't want to take the time to
supervise a youngster.

'Lainie

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 10:41:20 -0600
From: "Hoon, Twila" <HOONTW@libra.unm.edu>
Subject: RE: SC -children in kitchen:was worst feast ever...

I am not sure what (if any rules) the Outlands has about kids in the
kitchen, but I do know that they provide help in inumerable ways and some of
them are more safety concious then the adults. Even if the Kingdom (or
site) has a rule against the kids being in the kitchen (or the dynamics of
the kitchen or what is being cooked -such as HOT oil) they can still assist
at a satelite location. During pre-feast preparations I often have several
tables set up just outside the kitchen for those tasks that are suited. For
the Midwinter feast I am doing, one of the planned activities for young
members to do is to help assemble and display the desert banquet. If anyone
told me that I could no longer let the children assist (and learn and
particiapte) I would have a huge problem. Thankfully, my Baron and
Baroness as well as group seneschal wholeheartly support this _inclusion_ of
young people.

Saffia al Sabia

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 12:25:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Nisha Martin <nishamartin@yahoo.com>
Subject: SC - Kids in the kitchen

And I love the help in the kitchen. Kids are a great
asset. It's a shame we often overlook them.

When I have done kitchens at camping events, sometimes
the only reliable help I could count on was the kids.
I go out of my way to try to find things that they can
do that is actually something that needs doing, not
just something to keep them busy. 4-5 year olds can
butter or mayo bread for the sandwiches.(You just have
to make sure the little hands are clean.) They can
peel potatoes and carrots. Older kids can help haul
water, wash dishes, and cook. Kids always seem so
eager to help, I hate to discourage them. They lose
that helping spirit so often , I dont want to do
anyhting to help squash it. Sometimes (rarely it
seems) when there is nothing to do, I will explain
that I already have enough help, and too much help,
isn't help at all. But to check back with me either
after the meal, if they want to help clean up, or
earlier the next day. It takes patience to work with
kids. A lot of times, you have to show them exactly how
you want things done. But most of the time, they are
eager to please, and quick studies.

Now that I have a two year old, I hope that someone
(besides his mom) will take the time to teach him to
be useful around the kitchen when the time comes. He's
not quite ready for it yet. But that is my two cents
worth.

Nisha

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 16:00:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jenne Heise <jenne@mail.browser.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Kids in the kitchen

> When I have done kitchens at camping events, sometimes
> the only reliable help I could count on was the kids.

*grin*
Lo, these many years ago, I was involved with the founding of what later
became the EK Page program. I was also just starting doing dayboards. When
Ben the Steward was looking for things for his roving band of helpful
teens to do, they got sent tome, where they cut bread (I once had 100
loaves of bread sliced in a single morning-- with dulll knives... ),
melons, etc and peeled things and washed things and carried trays and ran
errands... The youngest ones (6 to 8) ended up washing and picking over
grapes. These kids were eager to work, liked helping out, and amazingly
never gave me a minutes trouble.
- --
Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@tulgey.browser.net

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 13:33:51 -0700
From: "Jeffrey Miller" <eogan@amazon.com>
Subject: Re: kids in kitchen, was: SC - Worst feast ever...

From: "deborah minyard" <dminmin@hotmail.com>
> >I've never heard of such a thing. It is my experience that kids are more
> >careful- perhaps because they are more conscious of what they are doing-
> >and that it is absent-minded (or in-a-hurry, or drunk, or worse) adults
> >who have the nasty accidents. When my son sliced his hand a couple of
> >weeks ago, it was because someone else bumped into him, not because he's
> >14.
> >
> >Sounds to me like someone simply doesn't want to take the time to
> >supervise a youngster.

I've got a million other things to do than baby-sit someone elses kids while
I'm trying to cook a meal for 150 of my closest friends. I honestly have
tried to give things to do to kids under ~16, and with only 1 exception,
they all vanished as soon as their attention span ran out or one of their
friends ran through with something more exciting to do - roughly 10-15
minutes in either case.

That said, I have had one youngster who not only stuck around, but ended up
being a part of the regular kitchen crew. yay!

I'd love to have more kids involved when I cook, but it just hasn't worked
out. I try every time a child asks though, and continue to have an open
mind on the matter.

> Actually the accident was a gas explosion from a problem with the stove gas
> line. I think the worry was an insurance issue. I checked the kingdom book
> of law and haven't found anything so I wrote the seneshal, will let ya'll
> know what he says.

Hrmm... I'm more worried about handing a knife to a kid and having them cut
themselves and then having the parent drag me and my shire into court. :(

- -j-

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 17:02:30 -0500
From: "Rhonda & Chuck Leggett" <leggettr@netzero.net>
Subject: SC - children in the kitchen

I have been following the posts regarding kids helping in the
kitchen at events. I have 4 daughters ages 18mos, to 9 yrs. The older three
are always eager to find a way to help at events. They regularly do
water-bearing ( the 9 yr old did3 consecutive hours last Gulf Wars)
and serve beverages at events. The system they use is for the 5 year old to
ask if anyone would like a beverage then guide the older kids with the
pitchers to the tables where needed. The younger one also serves seconds on
breads and such. They also manage to find things to do in the kitchen. The
older ones (7 & 9) stir pots, mix lemonade, run errands around the site, and
prepare trays of bread, cheese, and butter for serving. The younger (5)
empties garbage bags and fetches ingredients from the ice chest, organizes
serving platters, etc. The girls also help with kitchen clean up by checking
the tables for remaining trays and platters after the feast and drying the
dishes. These girls have done these chores of their own free will. It was
actually their idea to begin helping. They started helping me with kitchen
clean up when the oldest was 6. They now work in the kitchen whether or not
I am there and even work at events outside our Barony.

There really isn't much for kids under 18 to do in the SCA other
than children's activities at events and my girls quickly become bored with
that. They have learned several A&S projects and enter every competition
they attend.They took the time to find for themselves things to keep busy
and be able to participate in the game. They have also found other ways to
help. My oldest is a page and my 5 and 7 yaer olds are ladies-in-waiting to
Baronesses. I think if everyone would take only a moment of time to think
there can be many things found to help children learn to be productive
members of the SCA. The early lessons last the longest.

Lady Tabitha Baker

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 18:23:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jenne Heise <jenne@mail.browser.net>
Subject: Re: kids in kitchen, was: SC - Worst feast ever...

> I've got a million other things to do than baby-sit someone elses kids while
> I'm trying to cook a meal for 150 of my closest friends. I honestly have
> tried to give things to do to kids under ~16, and with only 1 exception,
> they all vanished as soon as their attention span ran out or one of their
> friends ran through with smething more exciting to do - roughly 10-15
> minutes in either case.

Two points: if the situation at the feast is such that you feel you need
to be 'babysitting' someone else's kids, the tasks to be done may be
beyond their skill level. Or you may run your kitchen in such a way that
people with minimal cooking skills (such as kids) just don't work out,
because they do require more feedback and supervision.

2nd, having kids work in groups or at least pairs is the most successful,
I've found, unless you have a kid who just likes cooking or just likes
hanging with adults.

> Hrmm... I'm more worried about handing a knife to a kid and having them cut
> themselves and then having the parent drag me and my shire into court. :(

Being accident prone myself (It's not a dayboard until Bunny cuts
herself), I guess I don't take much notice, but then I'm dealing mostly
with 12 and up who can be trusted with knives not to cut body parts _off_.
We've had kids cut their fingers: we wash the cut out and send 'em to the
chirgeon. No biggie.
- --
Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@tulgey.browser.net

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 17:08:21 -0700
From: "Jeffrey Miller" <eogan@amazon.com>
Subject: Re: kids in kitchen, was: SC - Worst feast ever...

From: "Jenne Heise" <jenne@mail.browser.net>
> Two points: if the situation at the feast is such that you feel you need
> to be 'babysitting' someone else's kids, the tasks to be done may be
> beyond their skill level. Or you may run your kitchen in such a way that
> people with minimal cooking skills (such as kids) just don't work out,
> because they do require more feedback and supervision.

Hmmm... its more a matter of people dropping by the kitchen several times a
day and volunteering their children for duty. The kids don't want to be
there, the parents don't know what to do with their kids, and just assume
that the kitchen is a good place for the kids to "learn what the
SCA/service/etc is about" - a valuable lesson, but one the parents should
have primary responsibility for teaching, not I.

I do actually have several sets of tasks I reserve for people with little or
no cooking skills to perform; however, I've found in general that most kids,
even when they want to be there in the kitchen, haven't shown the attention
span such that I can entrust them with a critical task (and believe you me,
in a small kitchen, with the exceptionally small staffs we've worked with,
it's -all- critical). That said, there certainly have been notable
exceptions, and I appreciate them and look forward to having them in my
space anytime they like.

There is also an issue with what exactly they can do. For example, I am in
no way comofortable giving anyone else's children knives, unless the parent
themselves is there to supervise.

> 2nd, having kids work in groups or at least pairs is the most successful,
> I've found, unless you have a kid who just likes cooking or just likes
> hanging with adults.

Perhaps. I've had quite a bit of experience working with children outside
the SCA, but what I'm doing in the kitchen is WORK, not play, and unless a
child REALLY wants to be there, they'll disappear sooner or later... and if
I need those apples peeled by golly, I need them peeled! :-)

> >Hrmm... I'm more worried about handing a knife to a kid and having them cut
> > themselves and then having the parent drag me and my shire into court. :(
>
> Being accident prone myself (It's not a dayboard until Bunny cuts
> herself), I guess I don't take much notice, but then I'm dealing mostly
> with 12 and up who can be trusted with knives not to cut body parts _off_.
> We've had kids cut their fingers: we wash the cut out and send 'em to the
> chirgeon. No biggie.

Even 12 year olds though have parents who can sue... and yes, it IS a little
paranoid of me, but all it takes is one, and poof! ...in debt (and court!)
for the forseeable future..

All that aside... I DO try to encourage kids - the SCA is insular and
unwelcoming enough to new folks (and children) without me shooing interested
people away from my kitchen, no matter what their age.

- -j-

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 18:18:34 PDT
From: "Bonne of Traquair" <oftraquair@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: kids in kitchen, was: SC - Worst feast ever...

>Hmmm... its more a matter of people dropping by the kitchen several times a
>day and volunteering their children for duty. The kids don't want to be
>there, the parents don't know what to do with their kids, and just assume
>that the kitchen is a good place for the kids to "learn what the
>SCA/service/etc is about" - a valuable lesson, but one the parents should
>have primary responsibility for teaching, not I.

My rules: Kids up to and including 10 yrs old may only help with whatever
their adult is doing. Their adult is the one directly supervising them. If
their adult ends up socializing, and won't adjust their behaviour on
request, goodbye to both of them.

Same rule applies to serving feast with the additional rule of 'must be in
kindergarten'. I learned not to say 'school' because of the number of
people who think daycare is school and therefore their 4 yr old could pour
from pitchers because he goes to Montesori. Sorry, no. Oops at school are
one thing, Oops at feast are too much of a hassle.

I don't feel that proclaiming this rule is blowing smoke and etc. as stated
by someone earlier. My kitchen, my rules. IMO, the feast cook shooing away
a 14 yr old was being overly cautious, but I don't know their experiences so
I'll just say that they have the right, as cook, to set such a rule.

Bonne

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 11:39:15 GMT
From: "deborah minyard" <dminmin@hotmail.com>
Subject: SC - Re: kids in kitchen,

Answer from the kingdom seneshal:
There is no Atlantian law re: children in the Kitchen.

There is no Corporate law w/ ages at all except where holding an office is
concerned.

Current proposed Children's policies for the Minister of Minors also has
nothing concerning this area.

Maddalena

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 09:07:56 EDT
From: DeeWolff@aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Re: kids in kitchen,

dminmin@hotmail.com writes:
>Answer from the kingdom seneshal:
>There is no Atlantian law re: children in the Kitchen.

Sounds like someone overeacting due to a bad happening. This is a common
occurence in the SCA. The next time someone tells you that no kids are
allowed, ask their parents if it is okay and make sure the minor waiver is
signed.

This is enough to satisfy the "rule" makers.

And I heartily encourage you to continue to teach the children.....the
youngest child I have taught in an SCA kitchen has been 4 (she had minimal
hand to eye coordination, but she loves to mix things. I gave her tasks that
I knew she could handle and were not time sensitive to me. And the funniest
thing.....Her parents said she ate everything at the feast saying "I made
this, or I saw how they make this". She ATE everything, not bad for a "picky"
eater.

It takes alot of patience and you must be concise with your directions, but a
happy kitchen it will be. I like to have (medieval or Renaissance) music, and
I encourage chatter as well. I learn from them as well. (Pokemon, BackStreet
Boys, Britney, their families,etc.) It's amazing what they talk about.

Andrea M.
(A Seneschal who cooks and loves children in the kitchen)

<the end>