ME-feasts-msg – 9/29/14

Middle Eastern feasts. sitting, serving them. References.

NOTE: See also the files: feasts-msg, feast-serving-msg, feast-ideas-msg, p-menus-msg, ME-dance-msg, fd-Mid-East-msg, Moors-msg, Arabs-msg, Jews-msg, E-Arab-recip-art, ME-revel-fds-art.

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From: plan9 at main.ionia-mi.net (Barbara Wieland)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Middle Eastern Feast Question
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 05:56:01 GMT
Organization: Continental Cable International Mid-West Region

In article <19970320105900.FAA25176 at ladder01.news.aol.com>, tieglion at aol.com (Tieglion) wrote:
>Our Barony is producing a Middle eastern event, and as assistant
>Feastacrat I, and our Baroness were thinking of the idea of eating this
>feast  in the middle eastern tradition also.  So i take this into my own
>hands and find the problem with this idea is i have searched the Web and
>found nothing on how a  Middle Eastern Feast is served and is it done on
>low tables with people on pillows and rugs   or this another Hollywood
>invention... any referances, advice or info on this subject would be
>greatly appreciated...
>In service,
>Lady Rowen the Shiftless
>Barony of Hidden Mountain

I don't know much, and take this all with a grain of salt... but... here are 
some ideas. this is just what i remember off the top of my head from reading 
about middle eastern culture over the last year or so.

food is served from one large serving platter with people taking what they 
want... rather buffet style. or if you have servants, the tradition is to keep 
filling plates and cups with food and drink until the guest places their hand 
over the cup or plate to indicate they are through. once through, a guest 
leaves the table or dining area.

as to tables or not... i'm not sure. i guess it might depend on what 
cuisine/style you're looking to replicate. i'm sure the bedouins didn't lug 
around heavy oak tables through the desert. a fabulously well-to-do persian 
merchant might have one though. don't know.

the usual dietary requirements: no pork of course, or alcohol. lamb is big. 
camel's milk, if you can find it. that's the staple drink of the bedu.

those hosting the feast are the last to begin eating--but being a feastocrat, 
you'll probably be lucky if you get to sit down and enjoy it at all!

and lastly, if you're going to be REALLY authentic, you'd have to seperate the 
men from the women. and the men get the good parts (though "good" in this 
case includes organs like the heart, etc. i guess good is relative :)  ) 
i have my doubts about how well that would go over, though!

my last word of caution: my info may be off!


From: Dale Walter <Dwarph at worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Middle Eastern Feast Question
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 22:02:53 -0500
Organization: Dwarph Industries/banu durrah

ya yammant!

I would recommend such sources as _Personal Narraive of a Pilgramage to al-Medina and Meccah_ by Sir Richard Burton for descriptions of meals served on caravan and in the city (there is a diffence.)

Before the meal, a bowl and ewer are used to allow the guests to wash thier hands (water is poured from the ewer over the guests hands, as it is "unclean" to wash your hands in the water used by others.  The catch basins are works of art in themselves.)

Typically, the meals are served on a large tray of three or four items (more if you are being lavish) that is placed upon a stand, about which the guests sit on cushions.  "Bismallah" is exclaimed, and the food is consumed in silence, after which coffee and conversation is served.  The Host usually does not sit, and when possible, a servant will actually present the meal.  Guests will not eat everything, for this is insulting to the host (indicating that the guests were not sufficiently served.)  After the meal, coffee is served (small cups are used) and discussions are then had.  Guests should be entertaining (storys and songs are most welcome as well as customary), and arguments should be kept small.

BTW, some of us Western Europeans (I'm a Moozarab from al-Andalus) follow these same customs, so it is not just Middle-Eastern (since the lands of Aethemearc lie between the Middle and the East, shouldn't that be the Middle-East?)

Salaam alikum, durr
-- 
D. E. Walter  dew at ecl.psu.edu   Member # 02933
(Formerly, Smokey) Baron Dur of Hidden Mountain
durr al-jabal al-makhfi abu niifa ben durrah sultan al-Tabl
Orluk Oasis on the War Road (of Aethelmarc)


From: capncarp at aol.com (CapnCarp)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Middle Eastern Feast Question
Date: 24 Mar 1997 15:42:02 GMT

Madame;
As my Lady Samirah al-Mansur is deeply wise in these matters, I have
gained a few crumbs of wisdom on this subject.

1) No chairs, except for those gentles who are too infirm to be seated on
pillows on the floor next to the low tables
2) No utensils, except for an individual cup/goblet/etc., a napkin, and
the occaisional serving spoon or knife; which leads to...
3) Eat with the RIGHT hand (the left is reserved for attending the needs
of the body below the waist); this requires some practice,especially to
gentles with large amounts of facial hair.  The technique is to take some
of the savoy dish and mix it with the usually accompanying rice, roll the
mixture into a ball, and place it in your mouth.  Have  your napkin
ready....
4) The large platter is a communal dish; it is polite to segregate the
amount of food you have chosen to your edge,away from the rest of the food
on the platter;this is a matter of hygienic politeness, so that your hand
touches no one else's food.
5) Alcoholic beverages are NOT ALLOWED by Islamic law.

This is all my poor brain will provide at this time; good luck, and may
your feast be both enjoyable AND culturally and historically correct!

I am your humble servant,

Geoffrey fitzJulien fitzStephen, called Soulspeeder
eka (electronically known as)
CapnCarp at aol.com
  

From: DDFr at Best.com (David Friedman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Middle Eastern Feast Question
Date: 24 Mar 1997 19:34:33 GMT
Organization: School of Law, Santa Clara University

In article <3335EEDD.45AD at worldnet.att.net>, Dwarph at worldnet.att.net wrote:

> BTW, some of us Western Europeans (I'm a Moozarab from al-Andalus)follow these > same  customs, so it is not just Middle-Eastern (since the lands of Aethemearc
> lie between the Middle and the East, shouldn't that be the Middle-East?)
> 
> Salaam alikum, durr
> -- 
> D. E. Walter  dew at ecl.psu.edu 

Actually, there seems to be a significant difference between feast customs
in al-Andalus and in the East. As I understand it, the standard procedure
throughout period in the middle east was to serve on one platter of rice,
with some of one dish on one part of the platter, some of another dish on
another part, etc. But after the changes credited to Ziryab, the custom in
al-Andalus was to use a separate plate for each dish. You can find a
discussion of this in Manuscrit Anonimo (the 13th c. Andalusian cookbook
original published by Ambrosio Huici-Miranda and translated into English
by Charles Perry); the author regards the one platter system as old
fashioned and uncultured, and the many dish system as the way
sophisticated people serve feasts nowadays.

On another topice, incidentally, feast custom in the Middle East, at least
in present day traditional areas and I think in period, also included
perfuming guests--apparently using an incense burner to scent their
garments (while they were wearing them). Perhaps someone else can offer
more information on this custom, which I have never seen done in the SCA.

David/Cariadoc


From: manth at ozemail.com.au (Aramanth Dawe)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Middle Eastern Feast Question
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 05:12:35 GMT
Organization: OzEmail Ltd - Australia

plan9 at main.ionia-mi.net (Barbara Wieland) wrote:

><snip of some really terrific suggestions>
>and lastly, if you're going to be REALLY authentic, you'd have to seperate the 
>men from the women. and the men get the good parts (though "good" in this 
>case includes organs like the heart, etc. i guess good is relative :)  ) 
>i have my doubts about how well that would go over, though!

We (Barony of Stormhold, Lochac) did this for one day of our Tour
Through Outer Mongolia camping event one Easter.  The general
consensus was that it was a _terrific_ idea.  The Women's side was
full of lots of giggles and 'girl' talk and to judge from the noises
coming from the Men's side they had just as much fun.  We simply
strung a dividing curtain throughout the middle of the room, and left
it at that as a separator.

We sat on cushions and furs on the floor, with Servers circulating
with the food (each of the feasters took it in turns, so there was
little fuss with it.)  I was assistant cook, and as we made mostly
finger-foods it was easy for us to prepare and serve this way.

The entire weekend was one of the best I had been to for a long time.

Aramanth
--
manth at ozemail.com.au
Aramanth Dawe, 
Adelaide, Australia


From: keightp at goodnet.com (Kate Pitroff)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: middle eastern feast:incense
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 21:38:43 UNDEFINED

DDFr at Best.com (David Friedman) writes:

>On another topic incidentally, feast custom in the Middle East, at least
>in present day traditional areas and I think in period, also included
>perfuming guests--apparently using an incense burner to scent their
>garments (while they were wearing them). Perhaps someone else can offer
>more information on this custom, which I have never seen done in the SCA.

>David/Cariadoc

This is common among women and is mentioned in Marianne Alireza's _At the Drop 
of a Veil_.  A metal censer, containing charcoal and incense, (probably 
frankincense, I imagine) is brought out at the end of the party held by the 
Alireza family for women of the town.  The censer is swung amongst the women, 
then set on the floor.  Each woman then steps over the burner, arranging her 
clothes into a tent to catch the smoke.  As a nod to more modern custom, the 
hostess of the party then goes down the line of guests with a large bottle of 
French cologne, and splashes a little into the hand of each guest, signalling 
that if they wish, they may leave, but they are by no means required to do so. 
 Quite nice, I think.  You might twist it a bit for your feast and offer small 
bottles of perfumed oil or boxes of amber to each guest...never know if that 
incense will set off someone's asthma...

kate
tucson, az


Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 23:01:52 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Andalusian cookery

 Yumitori asked about Andalusian feasts.

There is a fair amount of stuff in the Miscellany, which you have in a
fairly recent version, but you might also try looking at the big period
Andalusian cookbook in Cariadoc's cookbook collection vol. 2.  It has
discussions of how to keep your kitchen (i.e., make sure your pots get well
scrubbed so that bad vapors don't accumulate and poison you) and how to
serve food ("Many of the great figures and their companions order that the
separate dishes be placed on each table before the diners, one after
another; and by my life, this is more beautiful than putting an uneaten
mound all on the table, and it is more elegant, better-bred, and
modern...") as well as recipes; and you may be able to figure out something
about bread and roasts by looking through this book.

As to what you are forgetting to ask, how about sweets? We have a bunch of
those worked out in the Miscellany.

Elizabeth


From: DDFr at best.com (David Friedman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Middle east feast info
Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 13:07:12 -0700
Organization: Santa Clara University

"dehring" <dehring at iserv.net> wrote:
>I have taken under task for a cooking and brewing RUM (Royal University of
>the Midrealm) class the idea of researching what the customs and food you
>would expect from a middle east feast. The idea being here whats happening at
>home. This is what the crusader encountered in that culture he traveled to.
>If any of could point me to books to look into, and any period paintings
>that would show what the table and feast gear would have looked like I
>would appreciate it!

The 13th c. Andalusian cookbook translated by Charles Perry and included
in Volume II of the cookbook collection I sell has a section describing
how to serve a feast, order of dishes, etc. Of course, that is western
Islamic; my understanding is that feast service was different in eastern
Islam. In particular, Ziryab appears to have introduced in Andalusia the
custom of serving each dish separately, replacing the old custom of
serving a pile of rice with some of this and some of that and ... on it. I
gather the new style did not catch on in the central and eastern parts of
al-Islam.

David/Cariadoc


Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 12:58:17 -0700
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - meat on rice question

At 1:46 PM -0500 4/5/99, Helen wrote:
>> .  Putting the beef, pre-sliced, on the rice and pre-sauced, as
>> someone suggested, is a good trick for making a little go a long way.
>
>So, taking this a step farther, how do you get this pile of meat, sauce
>and rice on the trecher/plate from the serving tray with 8 servings on it?  
>I am thinking of doing this with my venison and fumerty.  I have very 
>little venison.

I'm coming into this late, but the serving procedure in the Islamic world
in period, with the exception of al-Andalus after the reforms credited to
Ziryab, seems to have been a tray with a pile of rice, with some of this
stuff on part of it and some of that stuff on part of it, and the diners
simply served themselves from that. The 13th c. Andalusian cookbook
mentions this way of serving and puts it down, claiming that the more up do
date, sophisticated approach is separate dishes for serving the separate
things.

David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/


Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 20:49:30 -0700
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: Service Styles (was Re: SC - re: Dayboard - feast crashers)

Manuscrito Anonimo, a thirteenth century Andalusian cookbook, has a 
discussion of how feasts should be served. It explains that you 
should not use the old-fashioned approach, in which your guests were 
served a pile of rice with some of this on it in one place and some 
of that on it in another place and ...   but instead should send out 
each dish separately. So when we were doing an Islamic feast a good 
many years back, we did the old-fashioned way, which greatly reduces 
the amount of work. If you have (say) three recipes all of which you 
want to serve over rice, you make a pile of rice on the tray, put one 
thing at one end on the rice, one at the other, one in the middle. 
You now have only one tray to take out for the whole course.
- -- 
David/Cariadoc
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/


Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 12:37:16 -0700
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
From: david friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Help with planning Islamic feast (longish)

"Many of the great figures and their companions order that the
separate dishes be placed on each table before the diners, one after
another; and by my life, this is more beautiful than putting an
uneaten mound all on the table, and it is more elegant, better-bred,
and modern; this has been the practice of the people of al-Andalus
and the West, of their rulers, great figures, and men of merit from
the days of 'Umar b. 'Abd al-'Aziz and the Banu Umayya to the
present."

One thing you might want to think about is whether to do the
sophisticated western Islamic style of feast or the eastern
islamic/unsophisticated western Islamic style.

The former is credited as one of Ziryab's innovations, and seems to
be basically what we think of as the standard approach to serving a
feast--a series of courses, with each dish served separately. So far
as I can tell, it never caught on in the eastern (i.e. middle east
and beyond) parts of the Islamic world.

The eastern style involves a tray piled with rice, with some of one
dish at one end, some of another at another, some of a third ...  .

When Elizabeth and I do an Islamic feast, we tend to go with the
latter style, both because it is easier to serve and because it is
more different from what people are used to. As far as I can make
out, it is appropriate for western Islamic as well as eastern,
provided you don't mind the snootier members of your audience passing
comments about how uncultured you are.

If you decide to do the easier version, you might also do more
research than I have to confirm my interpretation of what it was. I'm
going in part by the quote above, in part from a modern description
of a feast in a traditional part of the middle east.
--
David/Cariadoc
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/


Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 16:14:45 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Food service in period -- arab, jewish
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

jenne at fiedlerfamily.net wrote: 
>I'm doing a feast on February 21 that is conviviencia-era Spain and I'm
>trying to come up with some period food service schtick for the Muslim and
>Jewish courses.

You might look at God's Banquet which discusses banquets in the
Arab litertature of the medieval period. Geert Jan Van Gelder is the author.
It's been remaindered and turns up cheap at various places.

There is this title that I have never seen but you might ILLoan it in 
and check it out--
A Medieval Banquet in the Alhambra Palace
Audrey Shabbas, editor. AWAIR, 1994
http://www.makanalislam.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=AWAIR&Product_Code=BANQUET-101

Johnnae


Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 10:28:03 -0800
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Food service in period -- arab, jewish
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

On 2 Dec 2003, at 12:30, jenne at fiedlerfamily.net wrote:
>  How about Jewish period food service practices? I know about 
> handwashing (on the sabbath)...

Brighid ni Chiarain replied:
> Jewish law calls for handwashing before every meal.

And since Muslims eat with their hands, hand washing in a luxury
setting such as a large feast is also suitable.

Anahita


Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 14:19:02 -0500
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Food service in period -- arab, jewish
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

On 2 Dec 2003, at 12:30, jenne at fiedlerfamily.net wrote:
> What elements of the meal _service_ would be typical of muslim
> (specifically andalusian) feast service in period? For instance, is
> handwashing before eating part of the food service?

From what I can find, Muslim practice is to wash hands before and after eating.

Brighid ni Chiarain *** mka Robin Carroll-Mann
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom


Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 19:16:17 -0400
From: "Daniel  Phelps" <phelpsd at gate.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] looking for middle eastern
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Was written:
> Hi there.  I am looking to plan an event for this year in which it will have
> a definite middle eastern theme (thousand and one arabian nights,
> Concordia's crystal snowflake ball).  I am looking to instead of a feast
> provide what amounts to a never ending buffet through out the day and was
> wondering what suggestions people might have as to where to look for
> recipes, recipes or dishes.

1001 Nights contains a story in which a feast is described in detail dish by
dish.  Years ago I ran a cross a book with a title like "Feasts of the
Past", "Food in Literature" or some such that detailed the story and
"redacted" portions of the feast.  The story as I recall it is that someone
is invited to feast and the dishes are laid and the host describes the
dishes to the guest and mimes eating but there is nothing on the plates.
This goes on and on until the guest finally remarks upon the state of
affairs and then the feast is actually served.  Such a story might be  
of use mayhaps?

Daniel


Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 18:57:35 -0700
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] looking for middle eastern
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Daniel  Phelps wrote:
> 1001 Nights contains a story in which a feast is described in detail dish by
> dish.  Years ago I ran a cross a book with a title like "Feasts of the
> Past", "Food in Literature" or some such that detailed the story and
> "redacted" portions of the feast.  The story as I recall it is that someone
> is invited to feast and the dishes are laid and the host describes the
> dishes to the guest and mimes eating but there is nothing on the plates.
> This goes on and on until the guest finally remarks upon the state of
> affairs and then the feast is actually served.  Such a story might be  
> of use mayhaps?

Alas, one must be cautious with translations.

In "Medieval Arab Cookery" Charles Perry has an essay devoted to the
ways food was described inaccurately in translations of "A Thousand
Nights and a Night". So I would not recommend using any translation
of fiction unless you can verify that the translation is accurate
rather than the fancy of the translator.

Anahita


Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 22:47:44 -0400
From: "Daniel  Phelps" <phelpsd at gate.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] looking for middle eastern
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Regards my reference to 1001 Nights was written:

> Alas, one must be cautious with translations.
> In "Medieval Arab Cookery" Charles Perry has an essay devoted to the
> ways food was described inaccurately in translations of "A Thousand
> Nights and a Night". So i would not recommend using any translation
> of fiction unless you can verify that the translation is accurate
> rather than the fancy of the translator.

Hmmm... I've three translations that I've used over the years.

(1) Tales From the Thousand and One Nights.  Translated by N.J. Dawood.
Penguin Classics Cox and Wyman Ltd.  London, England 1973

(2) The Book of The Thousand Nights and One Night.  Rendered into English
from the French translation by Dr. J.C. Mardus by Powys Mathers.  St.
Martins Press, N.Y. N.Y. 1972.

This work is in 4 volumes and while not as complete as Burton's it is in my
opinion the most enjoyable of the current "complete" translations  
available.

(3) The Book of The Thousand Nights and A Night.  Translated and Annotated
by Sir Richard Burton.  Privately Printed by the Burton Club.  Printed  
in the USA

While not the most readable, at 16 volumes this is the most exhaustive
translation of the collected tales.

It is my understanding that the original collection of these tales has been
reliably date to before 956 A.D.

That being said and as I (1) do not have access to an orginal and (2) don't
in any case read ancient arabic or even modern arabic which translation does
Perry recommend?  As a side note I suppose that one could compare the text
of the three translations I know of but if the version used as a source is
common to all and corrupt in and of itself any errors in the source would be
perpetuated in all three, yes?  That being said I didn't intend to suggest
using the story as a source for recipes so much as an aid to the theme of
the event.

Daniel


Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 12:23:46 -0700
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] looking for middle eastern
T: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

...

> (3) The Book of The Thousand Nights and A Night.  Translated and Annotated
> by Sr Richard Burton.  Privately Printed by the Burton Club.  Printed in
> the USA
>
> While not the most readable, at 16 volumes this is the most exhaustive
> translation of the collected tales.

Tastes differ--I'm very fond of the Burton translation.

> It is my understanding that the original collection of these tales has  
> been reliably date to before 956 A.D.

I don't think that is correct--unless you mean that the existing
versions are the result of a process that started that early.

What you may be thinking of is the mention of the Sheharazade frame
story in the _Fihrist_ of al-Nadim. But that doesn't tell us that the
tales in the surviving versions of the Nights go back that far--only
that the frame story does. As best I recall, surviving versions are
believed to be about 15th century and later.

There are probably individual stories lifted from sources, most
likely Indian, that can be identified as earlier. But as far as I
know, there is no evidence that the stories of the Nights as we have
i were collected earlier.
-- 
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com


Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 09:08:58 -0700
From: Susan Fox-Davis <selene at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] looking for middle eastern
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Daniel Phelps wrote:
> 1001 Nights contains a story in which a feast is described in detail dish by
> dish.  Years ago I ran a cross a book with a title like "Feasts of the
> Past", "Food in Literature" or some such that detailed the story and
> "redacted" portions of the feast.  The story as I recall it is that someone
> is invited to feast and the dishes are laid and the host describes the
> dishes to the guest and mimes eating but there is nothing on the plates.
> This goes on and on until the guest finally remarks upon the state of
> affairs and then the feast is actually served.  Such a story might be  
> of use mayhaps?
>
> Daniel

I believe you are referring to THE LITERARY GOURMET by Linda Wolfe, a
friend of my late Aunt Evelyn's as it happens. I seem to recall that
chapter of 1001 Nights was included.  Great book;  it got me started
with the idea of redacting historical recipes in the first place.  It is
back in print and available through Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/067167353X/102-4600067-3133720?v=glance

Selene


Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 09:58:57 -0500
From: Judith Epstein <judith at ipstenu.org>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] siting table in Middle-eastern style.

On Sep 11, 2009, at 9:35 AM, Susan Lin wrote:
<<< I don't have much and no sources but you've already noted one arrangement
here - Islamic and Jewish men and women would not have been seated
together.  Quite likely they would have been in different tents. You would
need to follow Halech (sp?) or Kosher laws regarding what foods may be
served together and what foods are prohibited.

-S >>>

Jewish: Jewish law is called halachah, stemming from the word  
'holeich' meaning 'walk'. In other words, the law is the pathway on  
which you walk, the way in which you go. If there are different tents, it's often preferable to separate men into one and women into the  
other. If there's only one tent, men sit on one side and women on the  
other. In most cases, there's a curtain hung in between for the sake  
of modesty. In some cases, the curtain is lowered -- for instance, at  
a wedding, the curtain runs down the center of the tent or room. The  
bride and groom sit very near to the curtain, she on the women's side  
and he on the men's side, so they can be near one another, even while  
separated by the modesty curtain. Permitted foods or practices are  
called kosher (KOH-shur) or kasher (kah-SHARE). Non-permitted foods or practices are called tamei (ritually impure), treifah or  
'treif' (torn), or simply lo-kasher (not kosher). The word kosher or  
kasher means fit or proper according to halachah.

Muslim: Much the same, I'm pretty sure, though I am no expert and you  
should check with someone who is both a believer and practitioner of  
Islam. Permitted foods or practices are called halal; non-permitted  
foods or practices are called haram.

While there is a good bit of overlap in the laws of kosher slaughter  
and halal slaughter (zabiha), not all the dietary restrictions are the same with Islam and Judaism. Thus, just because something is halal  
doesn't make it kosher, and just because something is kosher doesn't  
make it halal.

For both, the separation of the sexes is meant to preserve the ritual  
purity, dignity, respect, and reputation of both men and women. Laws  
of modesty are meant to do the same, and apply to both sexes, though  
in slightly different form because each gender has different parts of  
the body that are considered too holy for common/vulgar viewing. 


Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 12:18:19 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] siting table in Middle-eastern style.

How traditional do you want? In very traditional countries
women and girls never eat with the men and boys. To reproduce this
you would have to serve the men their feast; the women would eat later.

Modern customs can be searched in Google under such phrases as:
islamic meals women served separately

Sources such Encyclopedia of Women & Islamic Cultures are available  
for viewing in part online.

Johnnae

On Sep 11, 2009, at 9:29 AM, Georgia Foster wrote:
<<< How is an Islamic meal structured, served, and cleared away?  Has  
anybody researched this yet, who might have insight they are willing  
to share?  Any references I can start with that might serve as a  
springboard? >>>


Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2009 07:57:42 -0700
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] siting table in Middle-eastern style.

<<< . . . not what they ate, but how the meal was structured.  How does 
one properly set and serve a meal in the Holy Land, in period? 
Anybody know of any references where I would start with to determine 
the structure of the Islamic meal? >>>

The Anonymous Andalusian (13th c.) discusses the question of how a 
feast is organized, but it's describing western Islamic practice 
which pretty clearly differed at the time from Middle Eastern 
practice due to some changes attributed to Ziryab, an influential 
cultural figure in, I think, the ninth century.

"Many of the great figures and their companions order that the 
separate dishes be placed on each table before the diners, one after 
another; and by my life, this is more beautiful than putting an 
uneaten mound all on the table, and it is more elegant, better-bred, 
and modern; this has been the practice of the people of al-Andalus 
and the West, of their rulers, great figures, and men of merit from 
the days of 'Umar b. 'Abd al-'Aziz[55] and the Banu Umayya to the 
present."

The discussion rejects the old fashioned way of doing things, which 
seems to involve serving everything at once, in favor of the cultured 
modern way, which involves a sequence of courses--and it describes 
what the sequence is. The book is webbed on my site; the relevant 
part is:

http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/Cookbooks/Andalusian/andalusian3.htm#Heading125

My interpretation of the old fashioned way, which I gather is still 
the practice in the Middle East, is that you have a platter with a 
pile of rice, and the various things all on it, presumably on 
different parts of the pile. This makes serving much easier. It's how 
Elizabeth and I did our Islamic feast at Thirty Year.

My guess, but it's only a guess, is that one way of doing it is to 
use tray tables. The stands are in place, the trays are brought in, 
each with its pile of rice (perhaps on a big plate), with (say) three 
different main dishes, all served out on top of different parts of 
the pile. That would explain the prominence of tray tables.
-- 
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com


Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 02:34:31 -0400
From: Sharon Palmer <ranvaig at columbus.rr.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] siting table in Middle-eastern style.

<<< In the Middle East, now? In the Middle East in period?

If you mean in period, what did these tray tables look like? I keep 
thinking of TV tray tables from the American 50s and 60s. I hadn't 
realized they might have gone back further than that.  Still, a 
somewhat jarring image, thinking of a group in traditional dress 
gathered around a small, glowing box with a white and black 
flickering image... >>>

The ones I've seen are round brass, often very decorated, with a 
table or stand that the tray fits on. They are meant for several 
people to sit around them, probably on a cushion on the floor.  These 
are modern, but they say the tradition goes back to medieval times.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Middle-Eastern-Moroccan-Islamic-28%22-Brass-Tray-Table_W0QQitemZ360185383313QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20090902?IMSfp=TL090902168007r22278

http://www.goantiques.com/detail,moroccan-middle-eastern,2026126.html

http://cgi.ebay.ca/Hollywood-Regency-Islamic-Moroccan-20-Brass-Tray-Table_W0QQitemZ400068886431QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item5d25f6bf9f&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

Ranvaig


Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 00:12:56 -0700
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] siting table in Middle-eastern style.

<<< "prominence of tray tables", when?

In the Middle East, now? In the Middle East in period? >>>

Now.

Surely you've seen them--people use them in the U.S., imported. Brass 
tray, circular or oval, ornamented, on a wooden stand.

It's traditional. That it's also period and used as I described is 
only a guess, based in part on period references that can be 
interpreted that way.
-- 
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com


Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 10:38:12 -0700
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Coarse for feasts

Manuscrito Anonimo has a discussion of the question:

The first dish to be presented is a feminine one, such as /baqliyya 
mukarrara/ and the various kinds of /taf? y? s/; after this the dish 
/jimli/; then /muthallath/ (meat cooked with vegetables, vinegar and 
saffron); then the dish of /murri/; then /mukhallal/ (a vinegared dish); then /mu'assal/ (a honeyed dish); then /fartun/; then another 
/mu'assal/. This is the succession of the seven dishes and the order in 
which they are eaten. Many of the great figures and their companions 
order [p. 25, recto] that the separate dishes be placed on each table 
before the diners, one after another; and by my life, this is more 
beautiful than putting an uneaten mound all on the table, and it is more elegant, better-bred, and modern; this has been the practice of the people of /al-Andalus/ and the West, of their rulers, great figures, and men of merit from the days of 'Umar b. 'Abd al-'Aziz[1] <#_ftn1> and the Banu Umayya to the present.[2] <#_ftn2>


------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1] <#_ftnref1>An Umayyad caliph. (HM)

[2] <#_ftnref2>The practice of serving a dinner in courses, so 
characteristic of /Al-Andalus/, is not found in Baghdad or Damascus. It 
was introduced to Spain by a Persian musician and /arbiter elegantiarum/ 
named Ziryab, who had been driven from Baghdad by Ishaq al-Mausili as a 
dangerous rival and found a home in the Umayyad court. (CP)

This was in the ninth century. (DF)

When we did a feast at thirty year, wonderfully supported by the local 
cooks, we did the old-fashioned (and eastern rather than western) style, which we found a good deal easier. Each table gets a platter with a mound of rice and several main dishes on the rice. Platters assembled in the kitchen, and servers only have to carry out food once.

I'm pretty sure I saw somewhere a modern account of service somewhere in the middle east which seemed to be still doing it in the way that the Andalusian source argues against.


On 9/9/14, 2:34 PM, Susan Lord Williams wrote:
<<< Concerning the order of the medieval feast, Ziryab came to the Hispano-Muslim court of Cordoba, Spain  from the Orient at the beginning of the 9th century. Prior to that and after the Romans, the Visigoths, in Spain, served all dishes  at the same time, sweet and salty. Ziryab established or reestablish an order to the presentation of courses:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziryab: Cuisine He was an arbiter of culinary fashion and taste, who also "revolutionized the local cuisine" by introducing new fruit and vegetables such asasparagus, and by introducing the three-course meal served on leathern tablecloths, insisting that meals should be served in three separate courses consisting of soup, the main course, and dessert. He also introduced the use of crystal as a container for drinks, which was more effective than metal. This claim is supported by accounts of him cutting large crystals into cups with the only tool capable of doing such a feat in his time which was his mind.[citation needed] goblets.[29] Prior to his time, food was served plainly on platters on bare tables, as was the case with the Romans.?
The question then would be did Hispnao-Muslim or Bagdad culinary customs or Knights, which certainly catered to this order of courses, get to the scene of your banquet.

When I do banquets, I stick to the Ziryab style to give my kitchen help and waiters breathers. All at once is almost impossible to serve all warm.

I think part of a good feast is to eat a little and chat with diner partners. Then eat a little more and chat some more. Fast food gluttons can go to McDonalds if they are too vulgar to savor the cuisine. and appreciate the ambiance. >>>


Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 17:28:20 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
From: <lilinah at earthlink.net>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Coarse for feasts

Susan Lord Williams wrote:
<<< Concerning the order of the medieval feast, Ziryab came to the Hispano-Muslim court of Cordoba, Spain from the Orient at the beginning of the 9th century. Prior to that and after the Romans, the Visigoths, in Spain, served all dishes at the same time, sweet and salty. Ziryab established or reestablish an order to the presentation of courses:
[SNIP]
by introducing the three-course meal served on leathern tablecloths, insisting that meals should be served in three separate courses consisting of soup, the main course, and dessert.
[SNIP]
The question then would be did Hispnao-Muslim or Bagdad culinary customs or Knights, which certainly catered to this order of courses, get to the scene of your banquet. >>>

Since the original poster was planning a feast based on ibn Sayyar al-Warraq's recipes from 9th and 10th century Baghdad, and not in al-Andalus, I would suggest serving based on the descriptions by the author/compiler, and not based on Ziryab, who had his own agenda from what I've read.

It's pretty clear from al-Warraq's writing that he envisioned a meal of several courses and not all dishes served at once. He also specifies different types of dishes in each course. For him the first course was cold dishes. I don't recall any soup recipes in his book - but it has ca. 615 recipes and I may have forgotten the soups.

<<< When I do banquets, I stick to the Ziryab style to give my kitchen help and waiters breathers. All at once is almost impossible to serve all warm. >>>

When i do SCA feasts i have the meal divided into courses, each with multiple dishes, ideally based on the serving method of the culture that is the source of the recipes. Since we have servers to bring the dishes to each of 8 or more tables, it is easy to serve all the warm dishes warm to 60 or 150 or more people. If i were serving at home, i would reduce the number of dishes -- one feast i did had 26 dishes in 6 courses - i wouldn't do that at home -- but keep them organized by course, as did al-Warraq. Ziryab may have had something new to bring to al-Andalus, but his dinner service wasn't appreciably different from al-Warraq's.

Urtatim

<the end>
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