saddles-msg - 11/26/04

Period saddles and saddles for SCA use.

NOTE: See also the files: horses-msg, carts-msg, leather-msg, leather-bib,  
lea-tanning-msg, p-animals-bib, chivalry-msg, horse-recipes-msg.

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This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have 
collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date 
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This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These 
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I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate 
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Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. 
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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: zebee at zip.com.au (Zebee Johnstone)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Taking a Saddle course, pondering period saddles?
Date: 20 Jun 2000 23:35:38 GMT

Copernicus Skygazer <muck at felitaur.com> wrote:
>1) Make it close to period while still
>2) Keeping it safe for the horse and still sellable.

Well.. like any culture that relied on the horse, they had different
types of saddle.

The military knight's saddle was different to the packsaddle, was
different to the palfrey's saddle for example.

If you want to do a high pommel/cantle knight's jousting saddle, then
I suspect an old Spanish tree design - such as the modern "western"
saddle comes from - is a good starting point. The older the better,
pics from the late 1800s show the gaucho riding in something rather
different to the modern show saddle.  (Although I once had a 1930s
cowboy's kit which was closer)

If you want to do a palfrey type, then either an all purpose tree or
maybe a modern military saddle tree would be the go.  I'd be inclined
to go for the military saddle as they are less shaped and can
probably be adapted more easily.

By military saddle I mean back when there were real horse cavalry, the
kind which is mainly 2 boards and some canvas :)

Maybe you should get as many manuscript and painting pics of saddles
as you can, as many museum photos as you can, and show them to
your saddler.  He would probably be able to suggest an available tree
that you can use.

things to think about will be shape of cantle and how you plan to 
fit the stirrups.  

Silfren


From: gunnora at my-deja.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Taking a Saddle course, pondering period saddles?
Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 14:40:20 GMT

Copernicus Skygazer <muck at felitaur.com> wrote:
> I have signed up to learn how to make fully functional, high quality
> saddles from a gentleman in my area. I have to order the saddle tree
> soon, and I am looking for advice on what I should do to both:
>
> 1) Make it close to period while still
> 2) Keeping it safe for the horse and still sellable.

It all depends on exactly what kind of medieval saddle you intend to
make.

The Sarmatians apparently used a saddle that was little more than a
pad, so I'd start with an English tree.

If you're doing a jousting saddle, I'd look into getting one of the
trees used in South America or Mexico for those high-backed saddles
they use.  I was looking at photos of a Paso Fino competition the other
day, and the riders were using traditional old-style Spanish saddles,
so the trees must be available somewhere.

If you want a good middle-of the-road saddle tree, you might also
consider starting with an Australian tree.  Australian saddles have a
fairly deep seat (4 inches or so, compared to about 2 inches on a U.S.
Western style saddle) and so you get a higher fork and cantle, more
like several medieval type saddles.

You mentioned that you don't have a horse yourself.  Do you intend to
give the saddle to a horse owner or to sell it?  If so, I'd recommend
ordering the saddle tree with "quarterhorse bars" -- quarterhorses are
probably the most common type of horse in the American Southwest, so
you'd have a better chance of fitting any given horse.

Another point to consider is what size tree to use.  I'm a big gal, and
I use a 19" saddle as a result.  Smaller riders need smaller saddles.
If you have an idea of who may end up riding in this saddle, then you
might ask them what size saddle they use now.

::GUNNORA::


From: gunnora at my-deja.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Taking a Saddle course, pondering period saddles?
Date: Thu, 22 Jun 2000 16:18:13 GMT

Silfren <zebee at zip.com.au> wrote:
> (Poley is another name for stock saddle, no idea why... but all the
> saddle names have that in them)

The "poley" part refers, I think, to the "kneepads" that emerge like
ears from either side of the fork swell on an Australian saddle.
American stock saddles lack these entirely.

It's been my experience (having ridden in American Western-style
saddles, English saddles, as well as Australian saddles) that the
Australian saddles with poleys provide the most comfortable seat and
the most secure seat.  The high fork and cantle combined with the
poleys make the saddle very hard to come out of -- your knees sort of
lock under the poleys and you are *IN* that saddle.

In terms of the SCA, I like the Australian saddle because it's a better
approximation of a medieval saddle than the typical American saddle --
you can get Australian saddles either with a horn or without, too.

::GUNNORA::


From: maxhaig at aol.com (Max Haig)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Taking a Saddle course, pondering period saddles?
Date: 22 Jun 2000 19:00:45 GMT

>I've already posted this to the SCA equine list, with one nice person
who responded with some ideas.<

They get touchy when you mention "period style" saddles on that list.  

>I have signed up to learn how to make fully functional, high quality
saddles from a gentleman in my area. I have to order the saddle tree
soon, and I am looking for advice on what I should do to both:

1) Make it close to period while still
2) Keeping it safe for the horse and still sellable.<

A McClellan tree is an excellent one for the horse.  They are readily available
as well.  Keep in mind that it needs to be sized for the horse.  A saddle for
an Arab would pinch a larger horse for example.

>Yes, oddly enough, I do not own or horse nor do I ever intend to, but I
like making things, and horse tack is popular in the southwest.

Any advice would be appreciated, and if someone would like to get a good
deal on a well built, (if they do this BEFORE I start, it can be CUSTOM
built) saddle, let me know. :)

Phillip the Skeptic

It would be best to find a horse and rider before you start.  That way the
saddle can be made to fit both and the style will be agreeable to the buyer.

Although there is much resistance to the encouragement of use of period style
tack, a few of us would love it.  I'll gladly voluntier my horse for a fit...

Max ~


From: gtv_13 at my-deja.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Taking a Saddle course, pondering period saddles?
Date: Fri, 23 Jun 2000 19:25:50 GMT

maxhaig at aol.com (Max Haig) wrote:
> >I've already posted this to the SCA equine list, with one nice person
> who responded with some ideas.<
>
> They get touchy when you mention "period style" saddles on that list.
>
> >I have signed up to learn how to make fully functional, high quality
> saddles from a gentleman in my area. I have to order the saddle tree
> soon, and I am looking for advice on what I should do to both:
>
> 1) Make it close to period while still
> 2) Keeping it safe for the horse and still sellable.<
>
> A McClellan tree is an excellent one for the horse.  They are readily
>available as well.  Keep in mind that it needs to be sized for the horse.  A
>saddle for an Arab would pinch a larger horse for example.
>
> >Yes, oddly enough, I do not own or horse nor do I ever intend to, but I
> like making things, and horse tack is popular in the southwest.
>
> Any advice would be appreciated, and if someone would like to get a good
> deal on a well built, (if they do this BEFORE I start, it can be CUSTOM
> built) saddle, let me know. :)
>
> Phillip the Skeptic
> <
>
> It would be best to find a horse and rider before you start.  That way the
> saddle can be made to fit both and the style will be agreeable to the buyer.
>
> Although there is much resistance to the encouragement of use of period style
> tack, a few of us would love it.  I'll gladly voluntier my horse for a fit...
>
> Max ~

Back in the '70's, the late Randy Steffen did a six(?)-part series on
medieval tack for the "Western Horseman" magazine.  If you can locate
these, I'm sure you can find something to your liking.  (I remember a
picture of a period Hungarian csiko's (herdsman) saddle similar to the
one used by Xena!).

Concerning resistance to Medieval tack, I know that some bits were
rather barbaric (possibly because warhorses were nearly unmanageable,
according to Poul Anderson) and relied on intense pain to control the
mount, rather than subtle pressure (which prompted a previous posting
concerning European treatment of their mounts).

Anyway, I would recommend Spanish-style tack, such as that used by
rejoneadores, gauchos, and other occupational riders, especially in
warmer climes such as the South and Southwest.

Jordi d'Andraitx


From: reshan at deyr.ultranet.com (C.M.Newell)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Taking a Saddle course, pondering period saddles?
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 01:30:00 GMT

On 22 Jun 2000 19:00:45 GMT, maxhaig at aol.com (Max Haig) wrote:
>A McClellan tree is an excellent one for the horse.  They are readily 
available
>as well.  Keep in mind that it needs to be sized for the horse.  A saddle for
>an Arab would pinch a larger horse for example.

        A saddle for *some* Arabs might pinch a large horse, but IME
and that of several of my Arab-owning friends, the problem is in
findin a wide-enough saddle. My  dressage saddle is an Austrian
wide-treed one. IOW, it was made to fit a warmblood...

        My Syrian saddle has only a half-tree in the front, so tree
width there is less of an issue.

                        ---Faris ibn Muhammad


From: Phlip <phlip at 99main.com 
Date: September 30, 2004 1:15:25 PM CDT 
To: theforge at mailman.qth.net, SPCA <spca-wascaerfrig at yahoogroups.com, 
medieval-leather at yahoogroups.com, EKMetalsmiths at yahoogroups.com 
Subject: [spca-wascaerfrig] Rennaisance War Saddle 

Thought you guys might find this interesting... 

Not only is the saddle itself of interest, but there's quite a bit of related 
information about how Medieval folks treated their things to preserve the 
metal, the effect it had on the leather, and what was done to clean it up. 

Reading carefully, there's a lot there. 
http://www.wallacecollection.org/e_n/e/p_e/sadd/saddle_index.htm 

Saint Phlip, CoD 

<the end>
Edited by Mark S. Harris	saddles-msg	4