p-saddle-bags-msg - 11/29/18

Period saddle bags. The ways items were carried on horses.

NOTE: See also the files: saddles-msg, Sadle-Blankts-art, Stirrups-Hist-art, Horse-Barding-art, Horse-n-t-MA-art, horses-msg.

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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 08:58:47 +1200
From: tamara at suncrow.com
Subject: [Lochac] carrying stuff on horseback
To: "The Shambles, the SCA Lochac mailing list" <lochac at sca.org.au>

Silfren was looking for info about period saddlebags, as I recall.   
Dunno if this has come up before, but I stumbled across this just now:

portmanteau, n.
 1. A case or bag for carrying clothing and other belongings when  
traveling; (originally) one of a form suitable for carrying on  
horseback; (now esp.) one in the form of a stiff leather case hinged  
at the back to open into two equal parts.

1553    in J. B. Paul Accts. Treasurer Scotl. (1913) X. 197,   vj  
quarteris bukrum to be ane portemantew to my lorde governour.
1579    T. North tr. Plutarch Lives Noble Grecians & Romanes 1040    
The sauor of this fleshe brought a woulfe to him, that caried away the  
fleshe and the portmantew it was wrapt in.
1598    J. Florio Worlde of Wordes,   A cloke-bag, a male, a port-manteawe.
1635    J. Hayward tr. G. F. Biondi Donzella Desterrada 124    
Taking?from off his saddle-bow a portmanteau, and out of it some  
victuals.

1581    Deposition 14 Sept. in Hereford Municipal Docs. 1519?93  
(Herefordshire Archives BG 1 1/17/3, MS 56),   Beinge examined  
wheather he broughte some portmantua to this citie or not confessethe  
he dyd bringe one?[and] saiethe mr maior?knowethe as well as he what  
is in yt.
1585    Protocol Bk. W. Cumming (Edinb. Reg. House) f. 75,   Ane  
sadyll with ryding geyr with port mantua.
1601?2    in T. G. Law Archpriest Controv. (1898) II. 41   They sent  
theyr portmantuas to St. Paules monastery.
a1641    T. Heywood Captives (1953) ii. i. 28   A budget?or  
portmantua, w[hi]ch included: all the bawdes wealth.

Kazimira


Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 07:09:15 +1000
From: Zebee Johnstone <zebeej at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] carrying stuff on horseback
To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list"
	<lochac at lochac.sca.org>

On Fri, May 27, 2011 at 6:58 AM,  <tamara at suncrow.com> wrote:
<<< Silfren was looking for info about period saddlebags, as I recall. ?Dunno if
this has come up before, but I stumbled across this just now:

portmanteau, n.
?1. A case or bag for carrying clothing and other belongings when
travelling; (originally) one of a form suitable for carrying on horseback;
(now esp.) one in the form of a stiff leather case hinged at the back to
open into two equal parts. >>>

I'm sure the modern one looks nothing like the period one - see also
"knapsack" which seems to have mutated a lot and is possibly the same
word as "snapsack" which is nothing like "bag carried by 2 shoulder
straps"  but is a sausage carried on the back with the strap over one
shoulder round the chest and under the opposite arm.

I wonder what a form suitable for carrying on horseback looks like.

I suspect it's a sausage shape for tying behind a saddle, as I think
I've seen a pic of that.  What surprises me is I couldn't see a pic of
anything like modern saddlebags - special leather bag lying on the
horse's flank - , just cloth bags tied at the mouth.

Sausage shapes and simple bags seem to have been very common, rather
than specially shaped things.  Easy to make and fasten I guess,
zippers not being invented and rolling or tying being a secure way of
keeping them closed.

Silfren


Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 08:58:36 +1000
From: Zebee Johnstone <zebeej at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] carrying stuff on horseback
To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list"
	<lochac at lochac.sca.org>

On Fri, May 27, 2011 at 8:40 AM, Jacinta Reid <omnott at gmail.com> wrote:
<<< I noticed "Taking from off his saddle-bow a portmanteau, and out of it some
victuals." and I wonder whether the "saddle-bow" is at the front of the
saddle, as a bow is the front of a boat? Does anyone know if the term
"saddle bow" has a more specific definition? >>>

As far as I know it's what we call the pommel today.

So probably still a sausage shaped thing but over the front of the
saddle, not the back.

Although.... it could be a small bag hanging off to the side, I've
seen pics of something like that.  Again a cloth bag in the pic,
rather than a shaped leather one.  I think the earliest I've seen
shaped leather front bags was 18thC cavalry items.

What I use now are black cordura throwover panniers.  They are modern
but don't have large logos or contrasting colours on them so are just
a black lump when dumped.  Not sure they pass the 10 foot rule even
then.  The sword bag is a bit more obviously modern, have to work out
how to make a waterproof sword bag that looks OK when sitting by the
list ropes.  Until then I'll make sure the bags are away from the side
of the field.  (When I scrounge a lift in a car, my kit is in calico
bags)

Fighters heavy and light... make it your new SCA year resolution to
keep all modern bags well away from the list field and keep your stuff
in a neat pile not scattered hither and yon.

Silfren


Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 00:12:38 +0000
From: Tallulah Cunningham <tallulah.cunningham at uon.edu.au>
Subject: [Lochac] Saddle terminology
To: "lochac at lochac.sca.org" <lochac at lochac.sca.org>

I've always thought of the front as the bow as well but a quick google seems to indicate that it is both the front and the back of the saddle - or the entire convex curve of the saddle from the front to the back - which makes sense for the descriptive quality of the word but not for where one puts ones portmanteau.

The front of an english style saddle is known as the pommel, the back the cantle by modern horse folk. Perhaps the phrase "bow" has dropped out of use. I've heard it verbally but I don't know that I've seen it used in a diagram listing the parts of a saddle

I imagine something the size of small to largish rucksacks would be attatched at the back of the saddle - smaller sausage shaped bags would work over the horses neck but anything much larger or bulkier would bounce about on the shoulder and get in the way of the riders legs. Behind the riders leg there is a fair bit more space for storages without interfering with the action of the horse's hind legs.

It's not a period reference but light horse mounts would have water skins slung around their necks to hang on their chest when travelling and I believe I've seen images of donkeys laden similarly.

Taitiu of Gortrua (who admits to having been a rampant horse fanatic in a younger incarnation)


Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 11:01:37 +1000
From: Ian Whitchurch <ian.whitchurch at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] carrying stuff on horseback
To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list"
	<lochac at lochac.sca.org>

http://livingthehistoryelizabethchadwick.blogspot.com/2009/02/horses-for-courses.html

Looks Bayeux Tapestry, but I cant tell for sure, and its not footnoted.

Anton


Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 13:51:13 +1200
From: tamara at suncrow.com
Subject: Re: [Lochac] carrying stuff on horseback
To: lochac at lochac.sca.org

On Fri, May 27, 2011 at 11:01 AM, Ian Whitchurch wrote:
<<< http://livingthehistoryelizabethchadwick.blogspot.com/2009/02/horses-for-courses.html

Looks Bayeux Tapestry, but I can't tell for sure, and its not footnoted. >>>

<<< The drawing there looks like a sausage shaped bag over the cantle, the
tapestry one I suspect to be a pack horse or else a weird saddle. >>>

I reckon it's a saddle as it has the upright bits at the front and   
back which the saddles at the time had

Keeping in mind that a pack saddle is still a saddle, even it's never  
meant to have someone sitting in it.  If you image search for "pack  
saddle", you'll see plenty of saddles with upright crossed or curved  
pieces at the front and back - they are typically used to secure the  
packs to.

Kazimira


Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 09:39:31 +0700
From: JL Badgley <tatsushu at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] Saddle terminology
To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list"
	<lochac at lochac.sca.org>

On Fri, May 27, 2011 at 7:12 AM, Tallulah Cunningham
<tallulah.cunningham at uon.edu.au> wrote:
<<< I've always thought of the front as the bow as well but a quick google seems to indicate that it is both the front and the back of the saddle - or the entire convex curve of the saddle from the front to the back - which makes sense for the descriptive quality of the word but not for where one puts ones ?portmanteau.

The front of an english style saddle is known as the pommel, the back the cantle by modern horse folk. Perhaps the phrase "bow" has dropped out of use. I've heard it verbally but I don't know that I've seen it used in a diagram listing the parts of a saddle >>>

It appears to refer to the "bow" at the front and back, with the
"pommel" specifically being the part that sticks up (like the pommel
of a sword):
http://www.lemen.com/dictionary-s.html

This site also mentions the saddle bow with pictures:
http://www.classicalfencing.com/mcrider.php

(One appears to have a "bow" on the saddle, though, when it says it is
missing--so I'm not positive that might be meant).

I know this isn't the first time I've heard the term.

-Ii


Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 14:53:28 +1200
From: "Lynlee O'Keeffe" <lynleeok at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] carrying stuff on horseback
To: <lochac at lochac.sca.org>

Although not able to be referenced to medieval times, my grandfather learned his horsemanship from late 19th-early 20C Scotland. The Scots tend not to change designs which work (notable the dagger).

For farm work, he used a sack under the saddle with both ends stitched and a hole cut behind the leg as high as possible but still clear of the back of the seat and flanks. This is roomy and can hold 3 lambs per side. He also used to walk beside the horse 95% of the time, with gear carried on top. The basic wearing pack was a sack with string knotted at each of the two bottom corners, merely slip knotted at the top. The heavier it was, the more solidly closed. It could easily be hung over a high pommel or carried by a person. He at times used a roll across the front of the saddle, this was not sewn, but could be rolled forward to hold stuff, or backward over a riders legs to protect from wind and water. With a good riding coat protecting the saddle from behind, you could stay dry and comfortable.


From the fb "SCA Equestrian" group:

Tiffany Parrett
8/6/15
Hi All! I'm planning on participating in a "period overnight" in a few weeks and will be using Kacey as a 14th Century pack-horse. Anyone have good sources/images of pack-horses & accoutrements? Right now, I'm planning on using simple canvas pack bags, but would love any additional ideas/resources. 

Alexis Garrigues 
That sounds fun! Here's a late 14th C rider with saddle bags. I thought I had some other pack images, but I'm not finding them. I know there's a pack pony on the Bayeux Tapestry, and I just saw another great image in the last couple of days- that I didn't save.



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