taverns-msg - 5/25/06 SCA and period taverns. Serving food. NOTE: See also the files: games-msg, games-cards-msg, beer-msg, cider-msg, wine-msg, Tavern-Feast-art. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: zkessin at shell1.tiac.net (Zach Kessin) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Running A Tavern Date: 11 Apr 97 13:02:44 GMT Andrea Benton <abenton at acesag.auburn.edu> writes: >I have a question for those who have ever done such a thing. We are >interested in running a Tavern, with an event we have planned for the >fall. >So anyone with any stories to tell, good or bad, I would be welcome to >hear them. >leona Check out the web site for Le Poulet Gauche, http://world.std.com/~cti/lepg.html More info that you probably wanted. --William Atwood Carolingia From: joylana at aol.com (Joylana) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Running A Tavern Date: 16 Apr 1997 03:46:12 GMT I ran a small tavern at what was suppose to be a medium event that turned into a Royal Progress. It was fun (I think) but I definitely was glad I did a lot of work beforehand. I had a limited menu: stew, biscuits, drink (non alcoholic), and desserts. I bought roasts which I cooked whole and then cut into cubes; had all the veggies cut up (some were frozen..came in so handy); and also made a vegetarian stew which was quite hardy. Bisquits were easy with Bisquick or you could do a hearty wheat or rye bread. I made lemonade, ice tea (herbal and regular), and also had hot tea and coffee. We had some mulled cider at one point, also. I would have loved having some help to take orders and carry the food, but instead I just opened the dutch-door and had people come to me. I hope this helps. With good planning you can do anything. Oh, yes, the kitchen had a very old stove, a beaten up refridgerator, and one sink. I was very tired at the end. I kept the cost very low ($2 for stew, biscuit, and drink; dessert was extra, ($1 to $2) as I was providing a service to my barony so I met expenses with just $10 profit. Jolanna From: robin.hackett at wadsworth.org (Robin Hackett) Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 13:25:14 -0500 Subject: SC - Outdoor feasts Sir Gunthar wrote: >There's an early period outdoor feast that I've been thinking of where all the >food is cooked either in the ashes (tubers, clay wrapped meat) and in a big >kettle (meat and vegetables are boiled in the cauldron, the solids are >lifted >out for one course and a pottage is made from the broth for >another. Outdoor feasts are alot of fun! :) Last year at the Gilded Pearl event in Sterlynge Vale a few of us ran a tavern for lunch and for the experience of doing so. We started early in the morning making bread and cutting up 25 lbs of onions for the sops. We spitted chickens and made a lombard beef bruet plus a fried beans & onions recipe from "700 years of English cooking". With premade pasties and fruit and cheese we were able to offer a good variety of food. The tavern was open for roughly three hours and each dish could serve ~50 people. When a dish ran out, it was taken "off the board". I wasn't in charge of drinks so all I remember is ginger drink and some sort of cider. It made me appreciate indoor kitchens when it started to rain! Leri robin.hackett at wadsworth.org Date: Mon, 17 Nov 97 13:38:29 -0500 From: Dottie Elliott <macdj at onr.com> Subject: Re: SC - Russian Inns When I run a luncheon tavern for food (which I have done twice now), I generally prepare enough for 50 people for a 150ish person May event. Not as many folks each lunch (many fighters do not, for instance) and I don't want to end up with lots of left overs. Clarissa Subject: RE: ANST - Traveling INN Date: Wed, 01 Apr 98 14:01:26 MST From: "Weiszbrod, Barbara A" <Barbara.Weiszbrod at SW.Boeing.com> To: "'ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG'" <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG> Tracy wrote: > Maybe her foods aren't exactly "period", but I can remember being > served roast turkey legs at an SCA feast once. I can remmember being served turkey legs at an event too and I was very dissapointed. At a Feast I want to have foods that are period and not (as Daniel pointed out) glaringly Ren-Fair. My shire does Black Wolf Tavern at Steppes Warlord and we do not do period foods there. It is very difficult to do a tavern well, safely, and at a profit. We have made the decission that researching period foods is just not going to happen. However we do try to do foods that are not glaringly non-period or that jar us out of the "feel" of a period fair. But none of the answers so far have really addressed the lady's question. "What would you like to have available to you". I want to be able to buy bottled water at a tavern. I also like the foods to not require I get my feast gear. Other than that something other than meat is also appreciated (can you tell that I wasn't born in Ansteorra? No meat?!). Alys Deriveax aka Aelfric of Alburn aka Barbara Weiszbrod aka Shire Bitch Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 18:38:39 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - wanted: a marinade for spit roasting an autocrat I would say you have just discovered why the cook does the buying for good restaurants and why every SCA cook I know does their own buying. I'm very leery of trying to do all meals for two days. You are talking about a tremendous amount of work, usually without professional help, with a hefty price tag. A quick estimate of the expenses is $10-12 per person to do it right, which means charging $16-20 per person to recover the expenses and turn a profit commensurate with the risk. Running a tavern, you have no guarantee of recouping the expenses. Were I planning to feed this event, I would run breakfast and lunch out of a tavern which I would understock so that I would sell out. I would also check all of the nearest groceries for stock and prices, in case I had to re-supply. The tavern cook would run the tavern. Saturday night's feast would be run as a feast. This is usually the best format for recouping the expenses. This would be run by the feast cook. Sunday night, I would get rid of the left-overs through the tavern. Unless I am fronting the money and am willing to take the loss, the tavern and the feast would be separately planned and budgeted with the group agreeing to the funding and providing funds up front to do the purchasing (I usually start with $200 to $300 a couple of months before the event which is replenished as I turn in the receipts up to the amount budgeted). Bear Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 07:09:02 EDT From: WOLFMOMSCA <WOLFMOMSCA at aol.com> Subject: Re: SC - wanted: a marinade for spit roasting an autocrat Marinade suggestion: Lay on a heavy coating of tar, sprinkle liberally with feathers of your choosing, impale on rail, singe completely. With luck, this experience won't sour you completely on cooking for SCA events. You have my sympathy. I thought the practice of having one person front the money for a feast was eradicated long ago by changes to the Exchequer system within the SCA. I remember the days when it was the only way to throw an event, but we at least passed the helm at meetings and such so the burden could be eased somewhat. While I agree that pre-selling feast is a good idea, when you're doing tavern- style feedings, it's not always practical, nor does pre-selling guarantee no leftovers. Especially over a long, potentially hot, Memorial Day weekend. Having done taverns for several years in Ansteorra, I know this to be true. The unsolicited advice: Never, ever allow an autocrat, especially one who has never been a feastcrat, buy your supplies without your active participation. We the unwilling, led by the unknowing.... Breakfast should be easy on the cook, unless a separate individual has agreed to take on the job. When alone in the hot seat, I use pre-baked sweet breads (fruit types with side dishes of preserved fruits), breakfast meats (sausage and bacon are easily restocked when you keep an eye on the serving line), bread and butter, and fresh fruits in season. Oatmeal is a quick thing, so a small pot of it is kept on the back burner for the few, the proud, the Scottish <veg>. I can always make more if necessary. Anything which requires more than fifteen minutes of stove time is pre-cooked the weekend before the event and frozen. Save your sanity and give thanks for modern technology. Lunch can usually be dealt with handily by what we call traveler's feasts. A bowl of stew, a baguette of French bread, and thou. Again, save your sanity and make your stew the week before the event. Everyone knows that a good stew only gets better for having aged a bit. If you cook it way in advance, freeze it. If done on Wednesday night, it will be heavenly by Saturday afternoon. Supper is where a feastcrat should focus their efforts and their creativity. Roasted flesh of some kind, be it fowl or hoofed, is a safe bet. What doesn't get sold on Saturday night becomes Sunday's lunch spread, with appropriate additions of the cook's choice. A nice salat of greens with a selection of dressings (both period and modern <I know, ***gasp*** heresy, but... a spoonful of Hidden Valley makes the salat go away). Something hearty and starchlike for the meat-and-taters crowd. A wondermous dessert, with which the cook can truly shine and be remembered. It's a tavern/inn/caravanserai. Sometimes we fail to remember that tavern food has always been simple and hearty fare. Even a king passing through would eat what was available from the kitchen, albeit on better plate and with as many flourishes as the keeper could manage. Save the five-remove fantasmagoric sit-down feast for another event where it is more appropriate. Just my tuppence' worth. Walk in peace, Wolfmother Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 06:53:34 -0500 From: maddie teller-kook <meadhbh at io.com> Subject: Re: SC - wanted: a marinade for spit roasting an autocrat LrdRas wrote: > 4. Seperate cooks should be in charge of each meal. For example, the main > feastocrat does feast, someone else is responsible for lunch and another for > breakfast. > 5. NEVER let anyone else buy your food for you. > 6. IMO, planning the feast as an integral part of the event is much better > than the inn concept. > 7. NEVER let anyone else buy your food for you. I think your advise is excellent. I would just add that the lunch and breakfast coordinators should coordinate with the cook. This will help with food purchasing (everyone consolidates items so there is no redundancy). And, scheduling of time in the kitchen so everyone doesn't need to use the same equipment at the same time. I agree on the concept of the feast vs. the 'Inn' concept. One idea that I have seen used has been the 'faire'. We set up the different feast foods in booths and handed out coins for the populace to 'purchase' their dinner from the food booths. It was a lot of fun. The amount of 'coin' handed out was enough to purchase at least one of each item. Meadhbh Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 16:48:24 -0400 From: Ceridwen <ceridwen at commnections.com> Subject: Re: SC -taverns/2 day feasts For Trimaris' Tenth Year Anniversary event, I was asked to provide a Tavern, as the feast hall only seats 150 and we were expecting about 1200 people. It started (in the planning) to be only a feast supplement on Saturday and Sunday, and by the time we were done planning it was from crew supper on Thursday until Breakfast Monday, 3 meals a day, open from 6 am to midnight each day. I had a crew of 3 that I could count on, as our Barony was involved with the event in many other capacities. The "kitchen" was a small building (screen house) with a sink! I cooked with a fire pit, a bbq smoker (8 X 3 feet) and a two burner gas stove. we brought along an upright freezer (12 cu. ft.)and many, many coolers. We set up a 20x20 pavilion for seating and a 10x15 for serving area. (took a large U-Haul truck to get everything there and back) The meat and dry goods shopping was done ahead of time with price in mind and pre-portioned if necessary. (ever see a meat manager at a grocery store cry?... they advertised whole bottom round cut to order for .99/lb, and I needed 120 lbs... shaved!) The rest of the shopping was done day by day at the local grocery. I got the barony to front the money for the supplies by promising them the profit if there was any. We sold advance tickets at $14.00 for the weekend and also advertised the tavern in the advance flyers in Talewinds and the Seneshals' mailings for 3 months. On site, meals could be purchased separately at $1 breakfast, $2 lunch, and $3 dinner. Drinks were free to all because of the extreme heat. (went through 100 gallons each of lemonade and iced tea, plus 30 gallons of my Lord's mead -yes, we carded!) Sold 104 advance tickets, which put us in the black before we ever got on site. With extra shopping trips for charcoal and produce, we made a $700 profit for the Barony. Figured by the amount of food served that we had about 300 customers a day. Had the most fun I've ever had at an event... took me three weeks to recover! Made a few mistakes, but nothing serious, and was "the" hang-out spot for the event. I would gladly do it again, with one caveat... the whole Barony cannot be on the crat crew for the event!!!!!!! I have done 3 of the last 4 Trimaris Memorial Tourneys (Spring Crown Lyst- Memorial Day weekend each year) as feastcrat, cooking all meals with little difficulty. Here for Kingdom events your budget is preset by the Kingdom (currently at $5 per head per day). I serve Travelers feast Friday night , breakfast, lunch and feast on Saturday and Sunday, and breakfast Monday out of that with no probs. I am not exclusively a period cook, although about 80- 90% of my recipes are redactions of period recipes. To see this year's menu , visit : http://commnections.com/rurik/tmtfeast.htm Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 08:05:05 -0700 From: Anne-Marie Rousseau <acrouss at gte.net> Subject: Re: SC - What's cooking at the Tabard? howdy all from Anne-Marie "Lainie asks: > A question came up the other day in my Chaucer seminar- and >everyone looked at me because they know I'm into medieval food- but I >really didn't have a decent answer- and the question was: > > What did they serve at the Tabard Inn? > > My best guess was sausage, cheese, bread, ale, wine, maybe pies. >Does anyone else have ideas about tavern food? According to the travel journals of Alexander Neckham in Paris, taverns would often cook whatever foodstuffs the travelers brought with them (picked up in the market just around the corner, say), for a small fee. He talks about buying a chicken, having the goodwife cook it, and after dining on it, he stuffs the leftovers in his wallet to eat on the road. Margery Kemp describes carefully how she had to provision herself for her journeys to the holy land, even on shipboard. I'm wondering how medieval the concept of a tavern where you can buy a full meal is? Or even if there's a hunk of meat you can buy a slab off of, how common was it to have more than one choice available? I know the "restaurant" is a fairly modern concept... - --AM Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 12:27:40 +0100 From: "Oughton, Karin (GEIS, Tirlan)" <Karin.Oughton at geis.ge.com> Subject: RE: SC - What's cooking at the Tabard? I think it is in PA Hammonds "food and feast in medieval England", that it has extensive descriptions of what would now be described as 'greasy joe cafes ', stalls which provided the ability to buy pies etc for food. Although the restaurant idea - being able to order to a table from a wide range is quite new, the buy a standard takeaway over the counter is quite old! k. Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 21:25:09 EDT From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - What's cooking at the Tabard? Karin.Oughton at geis.ge.com writes: << I think it is in PA Hammonds "food and feast in medieval England", that it has extensive descriptions of what would now be described as 'greasy joe cafes ', stalls w >> Correct but these were not 'Inns'. There is a description in Le Managier which says that if you find your self in an inn find yourself some meat broth and add spices and then eggs for a soup. I suspect that from this description inns, at least in the 14th century were not noted for an abundance of food. Ras Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 22:33:32 -0400 From: snowfire at mail.snet.net Subject: Re: SC - What's cooking at the Tabard? Some more info on taverns. Although again, I don't know how old these tavern practices are (my mother remembers this from when she was a child). There was a tavern open early for the early morning workers in the port in the nearest town to my home village in Wales (Swansea). They'd have several different meats available there for the workers, - a beef roast, a leg of lamb, and some black sausage, as well as pies and crusty bread. "Everything was on the counter and covered with tea towels.... They'd slice off what you wanted, and you'd eat it with a big thick chunk of the bread. The pies were pork pies, steak and kidney pies, and veal and ham pie". BTW re: the Veal and Ham Pie. Here's what I know about it. The pie was made in a loaf tin. The pastry crust was made with a hot vs cold water pastry method. After rolling the pastry out, a bottom/side crust was cut and placed into the tin. Then a layer of the chopped up veal and ham mixture was put in the bottom and pressed down firmly. A row of hard boiled eggs was added, end to end, "like a train" and more of the meat mixture was added around and covering the eggs, and up to almost the top of the dish. the filling was pressed down firmly, the top crust was added, sealed around the edges etc., brushed with beaten egg and the pie was baked. To serve, it was cooled, turned out upside down, and sliced like a loaf of bread. Does anyone have an actual recipe with a proper ingredient list etc. for this type of pie I wonder? It seems to be in the same family as a pork pie. Elysant Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 11:42:50 CEST From: "Christina van Tets" <cjvt at hotmail.com> Subject: SC - leeks, tavern food and galingale <snip of leek info> As to tavern food, I would look at one or two pictures - Brueghel for preference (that lovely one which shows bowls served from a barn door carried horizontally is my favourite - if you can't get hold of a copy of the real picture, it's spoofed in Asterix in Belgium). Didn't someone some months back mention a practice of serving bowls of various items for a set price to make things easier in taverns? Was that documented, or just a guess? Cairistiona Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 21:50:44 EDT From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Cooking at Faire chicagojo at rni.net writes: << Has anyone done a food booth? I must admit I wonder the logistics of it. Do any of the major wars have period or periodish food booths? Estrella had one that had hand held tarts and stuffs, they seemed pretty periodish and was pretty good too. What about Pennsic or Gulf Wars? Just curious, Zoe >> Our shire had a food booth at the Lewisburg Arts Festival for several years. We started out selling homemade soft pretzels and strawberry lemonade. After a year , we added ginger bread and cardomon cookies. That launched us into a food booth that was built by our own THL Gille and shiskabobs were added then spinach pasties. We didn't need any special licence in PA to run it for a day and we always did well monetarily with it, SFAIK. Perhaps Gille could fill in on the details that I have overlooked or am unaware of. So far as Pennsic is concerned, the food merchant business there is pretty much tied into just a few merchants. The logistics of feeding a potential group of several thousand people everyday for a week or so are staggering so those that are set up are mostly professionals. My favorite eatery is the emergency squads food tent. Decent food at very reasonable prices. There is an Italian ice booth, a steak hogie place, an Chinese booth, a Middle eastern set-up and apizza place. Also on the list is a bread bowl booth, my favorite place is The Battlefield Bakery which sells completely authentic period pies, tarts, and other tasty morsels. It is a wee bit pricey but a definite 'gotta eat there at least once a Pennsic' place. Wonderful food by wonderful and knowledgeble cooks. :-) Ras Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 07:05:25 EDT From: WOLFMOMSCA at aol.com Subject: Re: SC - Cooking at Faire << Has anyone done a food booth? I must admit I wonder the logistics of it >> I was the morning cook for the Triskele Tavern one year at Pennsic. The logistics weren't my job (thank ALL the gods), but we kept the problems to a minimum in a couple of ways. First off, the menu was limited. We did breakfast to order (for which we earned the odd appellation of St. Denny's). Lunch was usually something they could carry around with them (like sausage sandwiches with melted Swiss cheese and a dill pickle spear). Dinner was usually a pot meal of some sort, including spaghetti, boiled dinner (that's ham & cabbage for y'all who don't live in New England), chili. etc. The biggest problem about running a booth on the Food Court is sanitation. Cleanliness is absolutely necessary, and difficult to achieve in the primitive conditions at Pennsic, so you cook food that doesn't require a whole bunch of separate pots & pans. Saves on the scullery needs. One of the things we discovered about our menu was that folks would wander in at noon, one, even two o'clock, wanting breakfast. I had a confab with the boss about three days into War and we basically did away with lunch and served breakfast until 3:00 in the afternoon. This simplified our lives and made us a very popular place. The fighters loved us because they could get a hot breakfast, made to order, AFTER they'd fought for a couple of hours and were ready to actually put real food in their engines, and they didn't have to walk all the way back to their camps. Breakfast was basically two eggs, done the way you wanted, some bacon or sausage, toast, coffee/tea, and my patented hashbrowns for a crowd. The night shift at the Tavern had the responsiblity of cutting and pre-boiling about 50 pounds of potatoes per night. When I came in at 0600, the boss had the coofeemakers up and running, and all I had to do was put together the hashbrowns and start grilling meats. We had two regular house-type stoves with ovens, but the tops had been converted to griddles. I did hashbrowns in one of those big cast iron deep dish baking pans laid across two burners. We opened at 0700, and the steady stream began. My only complaint about doing this particular job at Pennsic was the fact that for two weeks, no matter how many showers I had or how many times I washed my hair, I always smelled like breakfast. It's not exactly my favorite scent, y'know? But the boss took care of me pretty well. Lady Jane, his lovely wife, made sure she got my laundry from me when she was going off-site to do theirs, I never wanted for food, and I had something constructive to do for the entire war. And I did meet some of the most marvelous personages as they staggered into the Tavern, coffee mugs in hand, bleary-eyed. All in all, it was a very good year. Wolfmother Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 16:00:25 -0400 From: Warren & Meredith Harmon <ravenleaf at juno.com> To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Medieval Bombards - An Explanation >Bombards ... are Medieval, leather pitchers or jugs. ... Far superior to >ceramic, as they don't break if you drop them. Weeellll, depends on what you are looking for. The bombards I've seen are usually lined with wax, because leather alone has a tendency to leak. Sometimes that wax is a pain in the tookus, especially during cleaning. >They also won't kill someone >if you hit them upside the head with it in a tavern brawl. Giggle! Depends on what type of mug you use! An English "brawler", a mug of a particular shape, was intended for just that purpose: when English taverns outlawed glasses because drunk patrons were using them as "street knives", the patrons started bringing thicker pottery mugs that could withstand the double duty. If you ever see me at an event, my regular mug just happens to be a brawler...no connection, though... ;-) I've had it for two years of really heavy abuse at events *and* Ren faires, and there's only one chip in it. -Caro Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 08:57:54 -0800 From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at efn.org> Subject: SC - Back to the Cookhouse! Remember a couple of months ago when we were discussing having a booth at Pennsic, and how part of our wanders included the plaint 'but we can't find info on period food booths!' Well, I found some last night! _Norman London_ by William FitzStephen, trans. Frank Stenton (full cite at the end of the post). pg. 52- "...Moreover there is in London upon the river's bank, amid the wine that is sold from ships and wine-cellars, a public cookshop. There daily, according to the season, you may find viands, dishes roast, fried, and boiled, fish great and small, the coarser flesh for the poor, the more delicate for the rich, such as venison and birds both big and little. If friends, weary with travel, should of a sudden come to any of the citizens, and it is not thier pleasure to wait fasting till fresh food is bought and cooked and "till servants bring water for hands and bread" they hasten to the river bank, and there all things desirable are ready to their hand. However great the infinitude of knights or foreigners that enter the city or about to leave it, at whatever hour of night or day, that the former may not last too long nor the latter depart without their dinner, they turn aside thither, if it so please them, and refresh themselves, each after his own manner. Those who dseire to fare delicately, need not search to find sturgeon or "Guinea-fowl" or "Ionian francolin", since all the dainties that are found there are set forth before their eyes. Now this is a public cookshop, appropriate to a city and pertaining to the art of civic life. Hence that saying which we read in the _Gorgias_ of Plato, to wit, that the art of cookery is a counterfeit of medicine and a flattery of the fourth part of the art of civic life." Now I want to know what is 'Ionian francolin' and can we cook it in a Coleman! 'Lainie Citation: *CALL # DA680 .F58 1990. TITLE Descriptio nobilissimae civitatis Londoniae. English. TITLE Norman London / William Fitz Stephen. Norman London : an essay / by Sir Frank Stenton ; introduction by F. Donald Logan. AUTHOR Fitzstephen, William, d. 1190? PUBLISHER New York : Italica Press, 1990. DESCRIPTION xv, 109 p. : ill. ; 22 cm. NOTES Originally published in 1934 as Historical Association leaflets nos. 93, 94. NOTES Includes bibliographical references (p. 91-96) and index. ALT AUTHOR Stenton, F. M. (Frank Merry), 1880-1967. Norman London. SUBJECT London (England) -- History -- To 1500 -- Sources. SUBJECT Great Britain -- History -- Norman period, 1066-1154. SUBJECT Normans -- England -- London -- History -- Sources. Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 12:46:54 US/Eastern From: harper at idt.net Subject: Re: SC - Back to the Cookhouse! > Now I want to know what is 'Ionian francolin' A francolin is a bird related to quails and partridges. I don't know which species "Ionian" would be, but presumably one which is (or was) found in Greece. Francolins are mentioned in "The Birds" by Aristophanes, and are listed by Enrique de Villena in his carving manual as a bird eaten in Spain. > and can we cook it in a Coleman! I'm sure you could. > 'Lainie Brighid Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 12:14:11 -0600 From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> Subject: RE: SC - Back to the Cookhouse! A francolin is any bird of the genus Francolinus. They are related to and look similar to partridges and quails. Found in Eurasia and Africa. I would say "Ionian francolin" roughly translates to "Turkish partridge," as Ionia is a Greek Province on the coast of Asia Minor. Bear > Now I want to know what is 'Ionian francolin' and can we cook it in a > Coleman! > > 'Lainie Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 12:22:37 -0500 From: "Michael Gunter" <countgunthar at hotmail.com> Subject: Re: SC - Running an Inn??? >I will be running an Inn for lunch and dinner during a >single day at the War of the Lilies this year. I have >only done feasts before - never any Inn's. So, I have >a bunch of questions. I've run taverns before for long weekend events and it is both a lot of work and a lot of fun. We started a discussion similar to this after Pennsic from a conversation I had with Cariadoc and Elizabeth at the potluck. I think a further discussion is very warranted. >I will have a large (commercial-sized) grill available to >cook on. It may be hot and humid, or it may be cool >and rainy. What is best served under these conditions? Sausages are always a good bet. Also meat pies or pasties (although I don't believe pasties are documentably period) are good choices and can be made ahead. They are good at ambient temps. If you get a Coleman oven that really helps as well. Are you going for period dishes or general perioid foods? Grilled chicken, portabellas, pots of stew, vegetarian pasties, fruit pies or tarts, stir-fry, flavored ices, shish-kebabs, pickles, "plowman's lunches" (cheese, fruit, bread, maybe a bit of meat in a napkin), wafers on a griddle, hanony, lotsa stuff. >I will be hauling the food in that morning. What can >be made ahead and easily stored? What has to be >made on site? Many things can be made ahead. Shish-kebabs can be marinated and frozen, pies and tarts can be made ahead, stew can be frozen, pickle vegetables or eggs, cukskynoles can be frozen. Hanony is as easy as scrambling eggs, wafers are like pancakes. Plowman's lunches are cut and assembled quickly. >What kind of prices would you pay for a lunch? Have various dishes. Going from 50 cents for fruit or pickles to up to $5 for shish-kebabs or larger dishes. It depends on how much food you wish to provide. Basically if the dish will fill a person $3 - $5 is reasonable. >For an evening meal? It could be identical to lunch or you could have dinner specials with rice or additions for around $6 - $7. That's the average cost for most food stands at the major Wars. Basically figure out how much the dish costs to make and then add around 10% - 20% profit margin. That is if you are basically covering costs of food and other expenses like space, napkins, dishes, time, etc... For a profit making enterprise you can up it to 25% or even higher if you feel the market will bear the cost. >Kateryn Gunthar Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 07:37:17 -0400 From: "Siegfried Heydrich" <baronsig at peganet.com> Subject: Re: SC - Running an Inn??? My household has been doing a tavern for the last couple of reigns, and are doing quite well. I was approached by the KS last year, who asked that I consider selling food & drink to the populace, as all the others who had been doing this had gone away . . . We did so, and overachieved just a tad. We've done 3 coro/crowns, and now have a 20" x 40' pavilion, a full set of prep / serving tables that are stained, varnished, and painted with the House badge, tables & seating for 40+, tasteful & discreet lighting, lots of tiki torches that use LP cans and also burn citronella cartridges, lots o' decorations, and a field kitchen trailer. This is a 6' x 12' (in its current incarnation - this is a work truly in progress) trailer with a 36"x30"x18" smoker / oven, a 3 burner gas stove w/ oven, fold down utility sink, plumbing, permanent gas lines, set up for power, etc. It has all the pots, pans, knives, trays, etc, that I need. I can serve 500 a day easily out of this puppy. And each time we use it, it gets modified and improved. It's largely been built by my protg, who is a retired marine, VW mechanic and computer tech, who builds cars to order. You should've seen the VW dump truck . . . We've been selling rats on a stick, kebabs, grilled sausages, frankfurters, sekanjabin & sodas, but the salads and lighter foods just didn't sell. People down here are unrepentant carnivores, and want fat & protein. We're thinking about simplifying breakfast - last time we did eggs, choice of meats, hash browns, toast and coffee, which was too hectic. Scotch eggs, oat cakes with marmalade, and strong coffee with a pinch of salt - the breakfast of champions! I figure we'll sell 'em in a brown paper bag and open a drive thru for the fighters on the way to the field . . . Sieggy Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 15:57:40 -0700 From: "Bonne of Traquair" <oftraquair at hotmail.com> Subject: Re: SC - Running an Inn??? >Sausages are always a good bet. Also meat pies or pasties >(although I don't believe pasties are documentably period) >are good choices and can be made ahead. They are good at >ambient temps. Better, place individual pies or pasties on the grill, out of the direct line of the flames, and they will warm nicely. On a wood fired grill, customers may appreciate the items having been wrapped in foil so as to avoid the smoky taste. If the grill is large enough, have a dutch oven to one side to hold heated pies/pasties warm until needed. Thinking as I type, you could even heat them within the dutch oven, again, to avoid smoking them. Bonne From: "Siegfried Heydrich" <baronsig at peganet.com> To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 11:33:19 -0400 Subject: [Sca-cooks] serving breakfasts Putting out leftovers is an excellent way for the feastcrat to simply make sure that food doesn't go to waste. Throwing out food is a major bugaboo for me . . . If the 'crats are serving all meals, then it's great for stretching your budget, though sunday breakfast isn't a big mover (unless it's a 4 day event), as most people usually don't stop throwing up before 8 . . . Breakfast isn't a high profit item for us; it's very labor and equipment intensive, and the potential for wastage / spoilage is high. But since we set up the tavern as a service to the Kingdom (all the other food vendors went away for a variety of reasons, and we were asked to pick up the slack), we serve it simply because someone has to. We charge $4 for a basic 'murcan breakfast - scrambled eggs (though we'll do them to order if circumstances allow), a choice of bacon, sausage, or corned beef hash, home fries, toast with butter & jelly, and the nectar of the sacred bean. We generally pile on the carbs, as most SCAdians have mongo appetites. We make a profit, but not all that great. If you want to do a breakfast tavern, make sure the power you'll be pulling won't trip the breakers (they're usually inaccessible), and that the people who are supposed to be working it don't get too blasted the night before. One real problem is getting your workers out of the sack . . . If the site kitchen is available, use it, but make sure you get out of there before the feastcrat starts up. Make sure it's clean before you leave, or you'll never hear the end of it. If you have to use your own equipment, make really sure it all works ahead of time!! (whoo, boy . . .) The best advice I can give is to plan well, and be prepared to wing it when something goes wrong. And it will . . . Sieggy From: Jamie Lennon <jlennon at ssl.umd.edu> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Taverns Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 12:44:47 -0500 Organization: University of Maryland Space Systems Laboratory David Friedman wrote: > I was thinking specifically of a tavern, not a feast. I think taverns > are more common in modern fantasy novels than in period accounts. More common, true, although I've scrounged a few late period examples of taverns - in an attempt to educate fans of aforesaid modern fantasy, in fact! None were in the area under discussion (Scandanavia), though. - The Tabard in Chepeside serves as a gathering place for an assortment of characters, rude and refined, in Chaucer's "The Canterbury Tales" (late 14th cen) Just like in a bad fantasy RPG, they all meet in the tavern, have dinner, and sleep there. - Don Quixote stays in a number of roadside taverns/inns in La Mancha in Cervantes' late 16th-cen work. These seemed more like fortified stables than anything else, with guests being expected to supply their own beds. Food, if served, was of dubious quality. (How much these characteristics were exaggerated for comic effect is up for grabs). -And there's plenty of Elizabethan literature about the hazards of taverns, ordinaries, inns, and so on. They were prime places for card sharks, dice cheats, and other unsavory types to hang out. I'm quite interested in adding to the list, if anyone is aware of any other period references to taverns. -Teleri From: rwilley at isi.com (richard e. willey) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Taverns Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 22:52:18 GMT >I'm quite interested in adding to the list, if anyone is aware of any other >period references to taverns. Not quite the same as a tavern, but the Turkish "caravanserai" served many of the same purposes. Hrothgar From: mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Taverns Date: 13 Dec 2001 14:51:27 -0500 Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC > I'm quite interested in adding to the list, if anyone is aware of any other > period references to taverns. Shakespeare's Henry IV, of course, where Prince Hal hangs out with Falstaff and company in a tavern. I believe at least one of the medieval Robin Hood stories involves a tavern. (Several of the modern stories do, but _most_ of the modern stories were thoroughly re-written in the 17th-20th centuries.) ====================================================================== Arval d'Espas Nord mittle at panix.com From: clevin at ripco.com (Craig Levin) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Taverns Date: 14 Dec 2001 17:20:15 GMT Organization: Ripco Internet, Chicago Chretien de Troyes' _Knight of the Cart_ has Sir Lancelot heading incognito into a tavern as a poor knight who wants to participate in a tournament. While doing so, he hangs out a shield. A herald, who seems to have blown his tabard and pants on dice, happens by afterwards, and, not recognizing the arms on the shield, heads inside to see whose arms they are. He comes upon Sir Lancelot, who lets him know that he's in disguise, the arms are also a ruse, and not to tell anybody that Sir Lancelot will be in the tournament. The herald agrees, heads out, and lets people know that the odds have changed on who will possibly win the tournament, but doesn't name names. Pedro (who avoids dice, in accordance with the promise he made when he took up the post of Storvik Pursuivant) -- http://pages.ripco.net/~clevin/index.html clevin at rci.ripco.com Craig Levin Librarians Rule Oook! Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 23:32:33 -0500 From: Stefan li Rous <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com> Subject: [Sca-cooks] bread documentation To: SCA-Cooks maillist SCA-Cooks <SCA-Cooks at ansteorra.org> Cadoc asked: > Hey, I am looking for books specifically on medieval food artisans, > mostly bread, but can be practically anything. I'm looking more > into documentation on the places food was made and the how. A couple of books from my library which might be of interest: >>> Ale, Beer, and Brewsters in England: Women's Work in a Changing World Bennett, Judith M. ISBN: 0-19-512650-5 Oxford University Women brewed and sold most of the ale drunk in medieval England, but after 1350, men slowly took over the trade. By 1600, most brewers in London, as well as in many towns and villages, were male, not female. Drawing on a wide variety of sources, such as literary and artistic materials, court records, accounts, and administrative orders, this book describes how brewsters (that is, female brewers) slowly left the trade. She tells a story of commercial growth, gild formation, changing technologies, innovative regulations, and finally, enduring ideas that linked brewsters with drunkenness and disorder. Examining this instance of seemingly dramatic change in women's status, Bennett argues that it included significant elements of continuity. Women might not have brewed in 1600 as often as they had in 1300, but they still worked predominantly in low-status, low-skilled, and poorly remunerated tasks. This book uses the experiences of brewsters to rewrite the history of women's work during the rise of capitalism. <<< Inns, Ales and Drinking Customs of Old England Hackwood, Frederick W. ISBN: 1-85170-069-2 Texas Bookman Restaurateurs and Innkeepers (Work Througout History Series) Franck, Irene M. ISBN: 0-8160-1451-5 Work throughout history series Facts on File, Inc. Stefan -------- THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2004 19:38:14 -0400 From: Patrick Levesque <pleves1 at po-box.mcgill.ca> Subject: [Sca-cooks] Interesting link: 17th century Inns To: "Cooks wthin the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>, "EKCooksGuild at yahoogroups.com" <EKCooksGuild at yahoogroups.com> http://www.ifrance.com/seuaj/auberges.htm Text on the location, building disposition, market value, as well as furniture and kitchen implement inventories of two 17th century French Inns The text is in French, however. Petru Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 15:20:42 -0500 From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] inns, taverns and food To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> I have to point out that this book was originally published in 1909 or 1910, so the information and research dates from that era. Johnnae Stefan li Rous wrote: > I can't find my copy right now, but folks interested in this might try > to find this book: > Inns, Ales and Drinking Customs of Old England > Hackwood, Frederick W. > ISBN: 1-85170-069-2 > Texas Bookman > 1996 Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2005 16:59:27 -0500 From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] inns, taverns and food To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> What I meant by pointing out that Hackwood is old is just that. It's almost a century old. There's over 100 that turn up in a search on using terms England tavern history. 1000 works turn up under England and tavern. Inn(tavern) is most often seen by the way in terms of LCSHeadings. The English alehouse :a social history, 1200-1830 / Peter Clark 1983 English Book Book xiv, 353 p., [16] p. of plates : ill. ; 24 cm. London ; New York : Longman, ; ISBN: 0582508355 (pbk.) The English inn, past and present; a review of its history and social life, A E Richardson, Sir; Harold Donaldson Eberlein 1968, 1925 English Book Book xi, 307 p. illus., maps, plans. 26 cm. New York, B. Blom, {this is another older title} Taverns and tokens of Pepys' London /George Berry; Samuel Pepys 1978 English Book Book 144 p. :ill. ; 25 cm. London : Seaby, ; ISBN: 090065242X : Inns and alehouses of Abingdon, 1550-1978 / Jacqueline Smith; John B Carter 1989 2nd ed. English Book Book 128 p. : ill., maps ; 22 cm. Abingdon [Oxfordshire, England] : J. Smith, J. Carter, ; ISBN: 0950768014 The licensees of the inns, taverns and beerhouses of Banbury, Oxfordshire : from the fifteenth century to today / Author: Wood, Vera, 1931- Publication: Oxford : Oxfordshire Family History Society, 1998 The Innholders :a history of the Worshipful Company of Innholders / Stephen Coote 2002 English Book Book 277 p. : ill. (chiefly col.), maps, ports. (some col.) ; 24 cm. Cirencester : Collectors' Books, ; ISBN: 0946604223 This was a thesis done in 1942-- Inns and taverns and English literature, 1558-1642 / Vivian Sutton 1987, 1942. UMI offers it. There are also numerous papers too. There's been a lot done on this topic. Johnnae Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:32:52 -0500 From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] A college class... on Coffee To: Cooks within the CA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Someone said >>> I think there may be a cultural tradition for hot drinks in period, >>> but not associated with a caffeine ruh, so... Someone replied >> The alehouse replaced the tabernae later in period (more likely >> was just another incurrence of the same style of business, not >> a direct descendant) and >> then the coffeehouse was a branch off of that same tree when >> coffee arrived on the scene in the 1600's. _Coffee and coffeehouses : the origins of a social beverage in the Medieval Near East_ by Ralph S. Hattox talks extensively about the whole coffeehouse thing in the Middle East and how the Muslim theologians said it was alright to drink coffee if you didn't drink it in the same fashion as one would drink wine-- that is, if coffee was a beverage used to improve concentration for meditation and prayer, it was all right, but drinking coffee socially, especially in coffee houses, was like drinking wine and therefore wrong. There's some interesting stuff about the development of Taverns in a book I just ILL'd... here's a section I've already transcribed into my blog: From Beer in the Middle Ages and the Renaissance by Richard W. Unger (Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania, 2004): "In fourteenth-century Hamburg, the town formalized the connections between brewery and tavern, ordering that beer could be served for the public only in the house where it was brewed. Such extreme restrictions were rare. Tavern keepers who were not brewers were often poor and had to get credit from their supplier. Tied by debt to a certain brewer, they also became tied as the seller of that brewer's beer. Since taverns were contining institutions and often in convenient locations, next to markets or on harbors, they became places to meet and to do business. Tavern keepers were generally legally free businessmen and businesswomen, often invested with certain public functions includng the collection of tolls and of taxes, and not just on beer. In Poland, law courts and even moneyers operated, on occasion, in taverns. Polish tavern keepers enjoyed higher status as a result of the varied functions of their institution. Tavern keepers usually operated on what amounted to a license from a lord who let the tavern operate on payment of a fee. Outside of Poland, taverns may not have played such a prominent role in the local and regional economy, but taverns were, at least by the thirteenth century, a common part of life in much of northern and eastern Europe. By the thirteenth century, Polish taverns, as their numbers increased and the economy developed, became more like taverns in England and the Low Countries, existing less as centers of business and administration and more as meeting places for the amusement of farmers and peasants." p.51 -- -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 11:18:07 -0500 From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu> Subject: [Sca-cooks] Ale was A college class... on Coffee To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Actually there's a woman's history aspect here-- Check out Ale, Beer, and Brewsters in England: Women's Work in a Changing World by Judith Bennett. Women brewed and sold most of the ale drunk in medieval England, but after 1350, men slowly took over the trade. By 1600, most brewers in London--as well as in many towns and villages--were male, not female. Ale, Beer, and Brewsters in England investigates this transition, asking how, when, and why brewing ceased to be a women's trade and became a trade of men. Johnnae Bill Fisher wrote: > snipped > In the case of the alehouse, it is probably a matter of economics. > > 1. You make ale > 2. People like your ale. > 3. Ale is a pain to ship > 4. having a place where you can sell your ale and people can > drink it there, mans you don't have to ship it > 5. having social meetings there as well means people drink more ale. > > The alehouses evolved into the public house later, or pub. > Cadoc Date: Thu, 04 May 2006 12:00:31 -0700 From: elisabetta at klotz.org Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Luncheon Question (Martha Oser) To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org > I know that many of you have done dayboards in a period style, but have > actual lunch taverns ever been offered? What dishes worked and > what didn't? > > -Helena Sibylla When you ask for "tavern" foods, is this foods you eat with your hands, or actual foods eaten in the taverns and by the lower classes? We have a tavern event every year, I cooked it the years it had a Scottish theme and a Persian/Syrian theme. (the place and time change, but it is always a tavern with simple fare). Scottish: I made small meat pies, soups, larger pies (steak and mushroom, chicken, leek and cheese) and Scotch eggs (hard-boiled eggs wrapped in sausage and deep fried). Persian/Syrian: I forget the names, but there was a hard-boiled egg wrapped in rice and beef (cooked in the oven), a lemon chicken with pasta (and spices) (this was a kid favorite), a fish in garlic and bitter orange sauce, a hot lentil dish, Turkish coffee and yummy nuts balls for dessert. The dayboard this year at Mudthaw was all meatpies (the dayboard cooks only wanted foods you could eat with your hands). There was a beef, a spinach and cheese and an apple version; all were made with pizza dough and fit in your hand. These were very well received and very tasty. I have found that small pies work very well, as well as things like scotch eggs. I did miss one event that had shish-ka-bobs and everyone was raving about them (people like food on a stick). Elisabetta <the end> Edited by Mark S. Harris taverns-msg 21