games-cards-msg - 2/27/08 Period card games and card decks. NOTE: See also the files: games-msg, darts-msg, games-SCA-msg, golf-msg, sports-msg, cloved-fruit-msg, child-gam-msg, Tarot-Crd-Ruls-art. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: mfy at sli.com (Mike Yoder) Date: 24 Feb 91 03:08:23 GMT Organization: Software Leverage, Inc. Arlington, Ma From the bibiography in Stuart R. Kaplan's _Tarot Classic_: "Marcolini, Francesco. _Le Sorti di Francesco Marcolini da Forli, intitulate Giardino di Pensieri, allo Illustrissimo Signore Hercole Estense, Duca di Ferrar_. Venice. 1540. Illustrated. Text in Italian. One of the earliest known books employing cards for divination. Contains 99 woodcuts. Depicts the suit of deniers. Questions are answered depending upon a kind of oracular triplet to which one is directed based upon the drawing of one or two cards. A second edition was published in 1550." After that there is a gap of two and a quarter centuries to the next reference, which is the origin of the modern Tarot reading methods: "Court de Gebilin, Antoine. _Le Monde Primitif, analyse' et compare' avec le monde moderne_. ... Paris 1775 to 1784. Nine volumes. Text in French." (The ticks after "analyse" and "compare" should be over the final E's.) Various card decks existed in period, some of which contained 78 cards divided into 4 14-card suits and 22 trumps including the Fool. The earliest evidence cited in Kaplan is "from a handwritten treatise presently in the collection of the British Museum in London" by a German monk named Johannes, writing at Brefeld, Switzerland. He says "a game called the game of cards (ludus cartarum) has come to us in this year 1377" but he professes ignorance as to when it was invented, where and by whom. He says that "there are kings, queens, chief nobles and common people" and that men "paint the cards in different manners, and play with them in one way or another. For the common form, and as it came to us: four kings are depicted on four cards, each of whom sits on a royal throne, and each holds a sign in his hand." Franz Joder von Joderhuebel (Michael F. Yoder) [...uunet!sli!mfy] The soul's Rialto hath its merchandise. -- Elizabeth Barrett Browning, _Sonnets From the Portuguese_, sonnet XIX. From: haslock at oleum.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Horde Info Date: 6 Jan 1994 21:18:08 GMT Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Greetings from Fiacha, R.C.Bell has written about Mahjongg more than once. I don't have his work on hand but he says something like. "'bork' first records Mahjong in the late 19th century. In the absence of any other written reference to the game I assume that it is a recent invention". He describes various other Chinese 'domino' type games and card garms, so it isn't as if the Chinese only started recording games in the 19th century. A book on card games (the definitive work on tarot cards whose title I forget) noted the existance of card games in China as early as the tenth century. These had suits virtually identical to those of mahjong tiles, but more of them. Either the author or myself concluded that mahjong is a late derivative of one of the early card games with a presumed late date for the conversion of the cards to tiles. Basically, we have some knowledge of period chinese games that does not mention mahjong so it is reasonable to assume that mahjong is post period. Fiacha, Kingdom Gamesmaster for AnTir haslock at zso.dec.com Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: a-mikem at ac.tandem.com (mckay_michael) Subject: Re: Referance Help on Cards Organization: Atalla Corporation - San Jose, CA. Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 19:38:22 GMT In article <3l54gs$7v3 at newsbf02.news.aol.com> lordstyx at aol.com (Lord Styx) writes: >I am trying to find the origons of the card Deck. I have been told it came >from the tarot deck, I would like to be able to find out can anyone steer >me in the right direction. What books I might look in to find this >information, I would like to find the first recored card deck, and it's use. >Alaric Wolfgang Von Mellenthin Basically, the first mention of cards in Europe are Dutch in 1371. Cards started in Spain and Italy (many arguments about who was first). Although card suits flucutated quite a bit during the early period, most of the national suits were standardized within SCA period (note that many countries have their own standard suits). The first mention of the Tarot deck dates to the early 1400's. The idea of Trump cards (first used with the dedicated cards as in the Tarot deck, later used for any card) seems to be a European invention. There are many conflicting stories on how cards came to Europe. The most colorful is the "brought by Gypsies tail", but cards were well established by the time Gypsies first appeared in Europe (late 1400's). Current thinking (Michael Drummit, "Book of the Tarot") is that it came from Egypt. They have found cards in Egyptian tombs (1200's) which are very similar to early Italian and Spanish cards. Cards were in use by India and China for quite a while before Europe (theory is they went to Egypt first). I am still new to this subject, but have very much enjoyed "The Oxford Book of Card Games" which has a wealth of medieval history and card game descriptions. Seaan McAy Caer Darth; Darkwood; Mists; West (Santa Cruz, CA) From: brgarwood at aol.com (BRgarwood) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Period card games (was Great Dalmut) Date: 18 Nov 1995 08:04:40 -0500 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) In article <48gcql$mu9 at blues.epas.utoronto.ca>, sclark at blues.epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Carroll-Clark) writes: > Perhaps we might discuss period card games? A number of them are >a terrific lot of fun. Last week we spent a whole Sunday learning to play "Troccas" (sp), which is an ancient card game from France/Switzerland. The member who was teaching us learned it on a trip to visit her relatives, who speack Romanche (sp) if that tells you where it is. Its played with a Tarot deck (I suppose any deck with 5 suits and 72 card would do), and works a lot like whist, except some suits count backwards, and the Troccas suit (the cards with big pictures) are always trump. The scoring is really obnoxious, I still havent figurred it out. If anyone is interested i'll post a copy of the rules. berwyn From: david.razler at compudata.com (DAVID RAZLER) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period card games (was Gr Date: Sun, 19 Nov 95 16:39:00 -0400 Organization: Compu-Data BBS -=- Turnersville, NJ -=- 609-232-1245 B>> Perhaps we might discuss period card games? A number of them B>are >a terrific lot of fun. B>Last week we spent a whole Sunday learning to play "Troccas" (sp), B>which is an ancient card game from France/Switzerland. The member who B>was teaching us learned it on a trip to visit her relatives, who B>speack Romanche (sp) if that tells you where it is. B> Its played with a Tarot deck (I suppose any deck with 5 suits and B>72 card would do), and works a lot like whist, except some suits count B>backwards, and the Troccas suit (the cards with big pictures) are B>always trump. The scoring is really obnoxious, I still havent B>figurred it out. If anyone is interested i'll post a copy of the B>rules. B>berwyn B> Check out CA #s 4 and 71. Also, The Fleet Hart, 2807 Jefferson Drive, Alexandria, Va. 22303 has published a nice little 17-page pamphlet, that is generally provided to purchasers of their large range of Tarot decks. ALSO: If anyone IS looking for very playable plastic coated, slightly out-of-period (designed 1824) Tarrock (54-card) or Doppeldeutch/Jass/Clubbijass (33-card) decks, I have plenty, due to a failure at merchantdom $9 for Tarrock $4.50 Doppeldeutch. I can accurately date the cards because I have both the current decks and my great-great-grandfather's, made by the same company. Designs are identical, and based on eastern European designs going back into period. Hopelessly Commercial, Aleksandr the Traveller [david.razler at compudata.com] From: dpeters at panix.com (D. Peters) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period card games (was Great Dalmut) Date: 21 Nov 1995 17:05:20 -0500 Organization: Panix In article , Trudi Stuber wrote: >Does any one out there have the rules for a game known as "Hazzard?" >If you do could you please e-mail me at: tstuber at oregon.uoregon.edu >Thanks in advance >Trudchen Actually, Hazzard is a dice game, not a card game. I was going to type out the rules, but they're rather long, so here's a couple bibliographic cites: Nelson, Walter. _Ye Merrie Gamester_ Available from Merchant Adventurers Perss, 7341 Etiwanda Ave., Reseda CA 91335 Smith, Patrick J. _Period Pastimes_ (Compleat Anachronist #71) Available from SCA Stock Clerk Happy gaming! D.Peters From: leeu at celsiustech.se (Leif Euren) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period card games (was Great Dalmut) Date: 21 Nov 1995 10:05:04 +0100 Organization: CelsiusTech AB Berwyn wrote: > "Troccas" ... played with a Tarot deck ... and the Troccas suit are > always trump. The scoring is really obnoxious, : > If anyone is interested i'll post a copy of the rules. This sounds exactly like "Tarocci", a game from 15 c Italy. Please post the rules, and I'll get my copy of my Tarocci rules and post the documentation. -- Peder Klingrode | Leif Euren Stockholm, Sweden Holmrike, Nordmark, Drachenwald | leeu at celsiustech.se From: Randy Martens Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Period and OOP card games (was: Re: THE GREAT DALMUTI) Date: 21 Nov 1995 19:02:22 GMT Organization: Hewlett-Packard sclark at blues.epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Carroll-Clark) wrote: >Greetings! > I enjoy this game, as I posted earlier. But I agree with Arval-- >not at events. However, it's a lot of fun at the pub or other similar >situations--(we "period police" do have lives outside the SCA, you know)-- >in a way, it's a lot like _Cathedral_--not at all period, >but with a medieval ambiance to it. As such, it's at least better than >MAGIC at events. But why sit around playing a modern card game with so >many other period things to do? > Perhaps we might discuss period card games? A number of them are >a terrific lot of fun. > >Primero, anyone? Another fine game with a mideval flavor, but *NOT* a period game, is "Plague & Pestilence", a charming little card game with nice period looking art, all about trying to get your town to survive the black plague. Loads of fun, but like Dalmuti, only appropriate in limited settings (in your tent at the war, in a quiet corner away from the bustle of activity at a pub event). I would vehemently object folk playing Magic (even though i play it mundanely, and enjoy the game) at an event, because it is BLATANTLY non period. Is there a source for period card games? I have a very nice replica peiod deck, and would like to learn some. Is Schafskopf a period game? Yours in service to the Dream, Lord Andreas Syndikus Drachenfreund von Ossenheim From: dpeters at panix.com (D. Peters) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Is Euchre Period? (was Re: games)--LONGISH Date: 21 Nov 1995 16:54:12 -0500 Organization: Panix In article <199511160227.SAA10407 at lalaw.lib.ca.us>, Pat Lammerts wrote: >Steven Rettig wrote: > >>I also directed it to those want something to play at a post revel besdes >>UNO or Euchre. > >Last I heard, UNO and Euchre are not period games. (I could be >wrong about Euchre. Cards are not my forte.) Euchre is a descendant of Triomphe, a period French game. To quote the _Compleat Anachronist_ (titled "How to While Away a Siege", or something to that effect): "Triomphe is a somewhat earlier (c. 1550?) card game, played with a 36-card pack which differs from our 52-card pack in that it lacks twos, threes, fours, and fives. The Ace ranks between the Knave and the Ten in this game. The game can be played by four people in partnerships or by just two people against each other. Each player receives five cards, dealt two to teach, then three to each; the trump suit is the suit of the next card in the stock. Play is normal trick-taking, with the players required to follow suit and to win the trick, if able. A player or side winning the majority of the tricks scores one point; two points for taking all five tricks. Game is usually five points. If a player or side is not happy with their cards, they can offer the point to the other side. In this case, that side can either accept the point or refuse it. However, if they refuse, they are obliged to win all five tricks or have two points scored against them." A few major differences between Triomphe and Euchre: (1) Players cannot choose trump suit (2) Players cannot go alone or defend alone (3) Play is only to five points, not ten It appears that the strategy in this game comes in knowing when it would be to your advantage to offer the point to the other side. Some of my friends and I have tried Triomphe; unfortunately, the majority opinion was that it seemed rather tame, and we switched to Ruff-and-Honors, an Elizabethan ancestor of Bridge, which is more challenging. Other SCA sources for period card games include the Oak (the Atlantian A & S newsletter), and Full Deck Imagery (the gentleman who makes the replica Renaissance playing cards). Playing at cards with one's friends or Bad Companions is a fine way to achieve more of a period ambience at events. Try it and see! Cheers, D.Peters From: brgarwood at aol.com (BRgarwood) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period card games (LONG) Date: 23 Nov 1995 07:10:14 -0500 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) OK, due to many requests, here are the rules for playing Troccas. This is a long one. Rules to play Troccas The cards There are 78 cards: 4 different suits, 21 troccas and one fool (le mat). The Suits The suits are: sword, cup, stick and rose. Each suit has 14 cards: 4 figures (king, queen, knight, servant [valet]) and 10 cards numbered from I-X. X is best in swords and sticks, and I is best in cups and roses. Figures are the best in all suits from King high to valet low. Troccas Troccas cards are numbered XXI to I. XXI is the best. Troccas cards beat all of the suits. Think trump. The Fool (le mat) The fool is a neutral card. You can play it anytime. It beats nothing. It also can not be beaten. If someone plays the fool as the first card, the next player chooses the suit. If the point (trick) goes to the other team the losing team takes a card (no points) from the played pile and keeps the fool. The fool is place on face down on the played pile. If one team takes all the tricks, the fool and the scart also go to the winning team. This rarely happens. (Think 'shoot the moon') The Honors. All cards with a value of 5 points are called Honors. The kings, the fool (le mat), the XXI (le monde), and the I (le bateleur). To begin the game. To play you need four people. Somebody shuffles the cards, his neighbor at the left cuts the deck. The shuffler lays the card from the top in the middle of the table. Then every player takes one card, beginning with the player on the shuffler's right. The players take a card until everybody gets a trocca. The 2 players with the highest troccas are a team and the 2 players with the lowest troccas are a team. Dealing the cards. The player who had the lowest trocca is the first "scartist". He has to deal the cards for the first hand. He shuffles, the neighbor on his left cuts the cards. The scartist takes the pile and deals, beginning with the neighbor on his right. Everybody gets 6 cards, then 6 more, and finally 7 cards. The scartist always shows the 7th card to all the other players. The scartist gets 9 cards at the end rather than 7. Three players have 19 cards and the scartist (dealer) has 21. Make the "Scart" The scartist has 2 cards more than the others. He can lay down 2 cards: make the 'scart'. This can give him an advantage. The scartist prefers to lay down cards of a suit, where he is' short'. That allows him to beat the king or queen of the other team with a Trocca. If he isn't able to eliminate a suit, he lays down figures of a suit in which he has lots of cards. The scartist puts the two cards in from of him on the table, the other players should not see the cards in the scart. The points in the scart are counted at the end of the hand with the other points taken by the team. There are certain cards that can't be placed in the scart. Honors (kings, fool, XXI and I) Playing The player to the right of the scartist begins. He puts one card on the table. Followed by the player on his right. The players must play the same suit if possible. If they can't play in suit then they must play Trocca. If they have neither suit nor Trocca, they can then play any suit they choose. When four cards have been played the team playing the highest card then takes that trick and places it in a pile in front of one of the team members. Troccas beats every suit and the face cards. Between the troccas the higher numbers always beat the lower. Watch the I, it is worth 5 points. The king is the highest card in every suit, the queen, the knight, the valet and for swords and sticks the X, but for roses and cups the I are the next highest cards. If a suit is played for the first time and the king is also played he can call the valet to him. The player who has the valet must play him and take the next highest card of that suit to his hand, Not a face card or Troccas. When all the cards have been From: justin at dsd.camb.inmet.COM (Mark Waks) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Card Games Date: 28 Nov 1995 16:27:32 -0500 Organization: The Internet Andreas writes: >Another fine game with a mideval flavor, but *NOT* a period game, is >"Plague & Pestilence", a charming little card game with nice >period looking art, all about trying to get your town to survive >the black plague... > >I would vehemently object folk playing Magic (even though i play it >mundanely, and enjoy the game) at an event, because it is BLATANTLY >non period. I will ask one interesting question: why the one and not the other? I'm afraid I'm a little dubious about the sound of P&P as well, and indeed most games based on specialized decks and themes like this. (Some games of this vague flavor probably existed in period, but everything I've seen indicates that the period games *mostly* tended to use pretty conventional decks, and rules we wouldn't find overly novel.) Just a point about authenticity in general -- it takes a lot of practice to figure out what *really* is period in flavor and what isn't, in any art. That's why I recommend sticking with the documentable stuff for a while, to start developing those intuitions... Anyway -- >Is there a source for period card games? I have a very nice replica >peiod deck, and would like to learn some. Yes, lots. If you have Web access, check out the Period Games Home Page: http://www.inmet.com/~justin/game-hist.html This has several bibliographies on period games, and rules to a few. (The page is new, but growing fast.) It also has links to the Card Games pages, which have some useful information on period... Best single source I know for period card games specifically is Earl Dafydd's little booklet on the subject, but I have no idea if this is generally available. (I have a copy because he handed me one several years ago.) Anyone know if that can be obtained? (Dafydd, are you out there?) It's a little light on the documentation (he gives references to his sources, but few reconstruction details), but it's a *very* good starting point, with generally clear rules for a whole lot of games... -- Justin From: jeffs at bu.edu (Jeff Suzuki) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: The "Evils" of Pennsic Date: 29 Jun 1996 21:35:31 GMT Organization: Boston University Gretchen M Beck (grm+ at andrew.cmu.edu) wrote: : Excerpts from netnews.rec.org.sca: 20-Jun-96 Re: The "Evils" of Pennsic : by David M. Razler at postoffi : > Craps and poker are not period! : Poker ain't, but craps is. There's medieval treatises on the playing of : a game whose rules are almost identical to craps. There's a period "poker" game, too: primero. There are many similarities. Oddly enough, I know of a web page that gives rather detailed rules, at: http://math.bu.edu/INDIVIDUAL/jeffs/index.html Jeffs From: justin at harp.camb.inmet.COM (Mark Waks) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Card Games, and the 14th century Date: 9 Sep 1996 13:17:29 -0400 Organization: The Internet Edwin Hewitt quotes from the History of Everyday Things: > "In the fourteenth century we hear of cards being played, A caution here -- if one cares about the 14th century specifically, the year really does matter here. In the first half of the 14th century, there are no solid references to playing cards; indeed, they are conspicuous in their absence. (Edicts banning gaming, sermons against it, and things like that do *not* mention cards at this point.) The first good references to cards pop up in (as I recall) 1377, in several locations around Europe, and come fast and thick thereafter. (Almost every sermon and edict *does* mention cards from that point on.) While not conclusive, the evidence is *very* strong that playing cards hit Europe in the 1370's, and spread like wildfire after that. By the *end* of the 14th century, card games appear to be pretty common, and the various national decks were developing solidly. (Although it's worth noting that what Americans usually think of as the "modern" deck -- the French-suited 52-card one -- is actually one of the oldest forms...) All of the above is drawn from memory of Michael Dummett's mammoth and invaluable book, The Game of Tarot, which draws together essentially all of the known threads about the early history of cards so that he can talk about what was similar and different about the Tarot deck. Incredibly hard to buy (I've had a book search out for a year now, and only have a temporary copy because Seaan McAy photocopied his for me), but worth the search -- it's an extremely careful and thorough look at the history of cards in general and Tarot in specific, giving pretty much all the known rules to games played with the Tarot deck, as well as the detailed history of Tarot divination (which, I'm afraid, *will* annoy some soothsayers). -- Justin Slowly working his way through the book; it's 600 pages of fairly small type... From: poch at sicorp.com Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: The Card Game Called Poch Date: 10 Nov 1996 14:04:28 GMT Organization: SSNet -- Public Internet Access in Delaware! Poch : pre - 1527 Card Game 1. 32 card deck - Ace, King, Queen, Jack, 10, 9, 8, and 7 of all four suits. 2. Each of four players receives eight cards face down. 3. Before looking at their hand, each player puts a chip in each of eight pockets pockets ( hole or area on board usually marked with the combination it is for). PHASE ONE 4. The dealer looks at the last card he delt himself, and names it trumps. 5. If a player has the value in trumps of any of the card combinations ( 7-8-9, 10, Jack, Queen, King, King and Queen, Ace ), he claims the chips in that pocket. Unclaimed pockets remain for the next hand. PHASE TWO 6. The player, to the left of dealer, bids one or more chips into the poch pocket. Any plyer staying in this phase must match the bid. After the other players have bid or passed, the first bidder amd only the first bidder may raise the stakes, but just once. Each player then lays out his best combination (pairs, threes, or four of kind). If players have same number of cards in combination, the Aces beats Kings, Kings beats Queens, etc. If best combination is a pair of same value, The one with trupms wins.) Winner takes the eighth pocket called the Poch Pocket. 7. All players take back their cards. PHASE THREE 8. The winner of the Poch stakes lays a card on the table. 9. Any player (there is no order) follows with the next higher card of the same suit, untill the ace of the suit or a stop card is played. The player of a stop carp may then lead with any card he wishes. 10. The first player to lay down all his cards receives one chip for each card left in your hand. 11. The deal passes to the left. NOTES GAINED FROM HOURS OF PLAY: A. Good players can regularly stick people with all eight cards still in their hands. B. If you play with other than four players, the cards left over from a coplete turn around the board are left face up in the middle of the board after the stakes are taken. C. If you play a 6 of diamonds, the 5 of diamonds is now a stop card if it has not been played. D. I have played for hours and the 7-8-9 had to be borrowed from in friendly games. E. The King-Quenn pocket is called the Marriage. F. The Pockets are usually in the order 10, Jack, Queen, King, Ace, Marriage, 7-8-9, and Poch. G. Serious games are usally plaed for a set number of hands, period of time, until one person is left, or any decession you want. H. In friendly games, people may set in for others. I. If it is your turn and you have HEARTS - KING SPADES - ACE, KING DIAMONDS - ACE, KING, JACK, 10 CLUBS - SEVEN and the Ace of Hearts has been played, you could allow only the Queen of Diamonds to be played before you claim the POCH, unless the last card in someone's hand is that Queen. Badly playedi, you could have seven cards left in your hand and you would have to pay out seven chips. recommended play King of hearts, King and Ace of spades,Ace of Diamonds Ace of Diamonds, and then 10 and jack of diamonds at this point you hold DIAMONDS - KING SPADES - SEVEN and the King is a stop card. Re-entry into your own hand is sometines important. J. When introducing this game to new people, play two or three hands with everybody's cards face up and explain things to everybody. Best to play the cards infront of the players rather than in a pile. Just push forward the card. Sorta like tournament bridge play. If you have any questions feel free to ask me questions at Wilho N. Suominen Jr. a.K.a. William the FInn, K.S.C.A. POCH at SICORP.COM . From: Dale Niederhauser Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: The Card Game Called Poch Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 16:04:56 -0500 Organization: BGSU Poch was played with a board with eight depressions "pokets" for holding the coin. Each deptession was labeled with what it was for: 7-8-9,10,Jack,Queen,King,Marriage,Ace. Use anything you want for the board, circles drawn on paper, 8 cups, etc. until you make a board. The chips are whatever token your playing with: poker chips, pennies, pretzels. They represent the coin you'd be gambling away. Poch was played as both a family game with tokens and a gambling game with coins. It was a German game and would have been played with German suited cards leaves,hearts,bells,acorns. Also German decks did not have Aces. The two was used as the Ace is used in the rules posted. This was called the Sau because pigs were commly drawn on the two of each suit. Hope this helps, Herr Konrad Mailander Barony of Red Spears Middle Kingdom From: Dale Niederhauser Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: The Card Game Called Poch Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 12:38:27 -0500 Organization: BGSU Greetings, Poch is a German game and is way pre 1527. In "A History of Card Games" David Parlett says it is fist recorded at Strasburg in 1441. He also mentions a French game Glic which was virtually identical mentioned in 1454 and 1461. It dyed out but Poch remained popular and has spawned several other variations. I think 1527 is the date of the oldest surviving Board. "A History of Card Games" by David Parlett (Origionally titled Oxford Guide to Card Games in Hardback) is the best sorce I've found with at least 9 games from period. The Hardback version has a color photo section not in the paperback which includes a good picture of a Poch board. Ich poche eins, Herr Konrad Mailander Barony of Red Spears/Midrealm From: david.razler at postoffice.worldnet.att.net (David M. Razler) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Poch/ more games/rules and card availability Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 18:34:55 GMT poch at sicorp.com (William the Finn) wrote: | Poch : pre - 1527 Card Game | | 1. 32 card deck - Ace, King, Queen, Jack, 10, 9, 8, and 7 of all | four suits. | 2. Each of four players receives eight cards face down. | 3. Before looking at their hand, each player puts a chip in each | of eight pockets pockets ( hole or area on board usually marked with | the combination it is for). Thanks for the rules. FYI the "traditional" 32-card deck probably originally used to play the game was (depending on where/when) the German-suited 32+1 card deck with the suites of hearts, bells, leaves and acorns. The current "French" suits of hearts, clubs, diamonds and spades *appear* to be slightly newer, though, post-period, they tended to replace the German and Italian/Spanish suits of cups, clubs, coins <"penticle" is a Victorianism at best> and swords. The German deck denies a place to women: the face cards are king, ober and unter. For further information, try http://www.netlink.co.uk/pagat, the world card game rules page, reachable from www.sca.org - arts and sciences subpage. The oldest doc'able and playable 33-card German deck in current production that I *know* *of* is the Piatnik #1808 Doppeldeutch, the designs dating to 1827 when Piatnik & Sohne started printing them (I inherited an original), though the designs themselves are *somewhat* older. Longship Trading Co. Box 4004, Shrewsbury, Ma. 01545 bought out my stock of new-issue Piatnik decks and 54-card #1936 French-suited Tarrock decks bearing designs of similar age. The cards are also available directly from Piatnick of America, but the company's high prices on single-deck orders and poor business practices lead me to strongly advise against it. Then again, I usually prefer doing buisness with Steve and other member/merchants. David M. Razler david.razler at worldnet.att.net From: david.razler at worldnet.att.net To: Mark S. Harris Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:42:14 GMT Subject: Re: Poch/ name that card! On , markh at risc.sps.mot.com (Mark S. Harris) wrote: | > The German deck denies a place to women: the face cards are king, ober and | > unter. | | What is an "ober" and an "unter"? I've not had time to do much game research. Ober(man) and Unter(man) lit. over-man and under-man, a better translation is king's #1 guy and #2 guy. The titles are variously translated as knight and valet, knight and jack, knight and knave, and in the 1892 "Old and Curious Playing Cards" by H.T.Morley,

"Chief officer and .. Subaltern," I kid you not. When dealing with a French deck, just read Ober for Queen, Unter for Jack. The variation on the themes in playing cards is fairly large, ranging from the Spanish decks of 40 or 48 with no face cards, just numbers, to the standard tarot decks of 56 lower suit cards of 4X1-10, knave (jack), knight (chevalier), queen, king + the trump suit up to decks of which the only example I know is the "Cary-Yale" Visconti-Sforza family deck which included male and female knaves and knights for a total of six face cards + 1-10 of four tarot suits + the trump suit for a total of 86 cards. The exact titles of the face cards as used by the locals playing vary widely, and not just with the language - in several countries, folks will play one game with German cards, another with French. Switzerland is apparently a mess, at least according to the regional games and cards list available from the UK-based playing card web page reachable from www.sca.org / arts and sciences dmr/A,T David M. Razler david.razler at worldnet.att.net From: Dale Niederhauser Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Poch/ more games/rules and card availability Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 16:22:01 -0500 Organization: BGSU David M. Razler wrote: >The German deck denies a place to women: the face cards are king, ober and >unter. Most German decks have the courts as Koening(King),Obermann(Overknave) = to Queen, and Untermann(underknave)= to Jack. The under and over refers to the positioning of the suitmark: On the Ober it was over the shoulder of the Knave and on the Unter it was down next to the feet. There were German decks with Queens, but they replaced the Kings and the Ober and Unter were maids instead of knaves in these decks. I remember one source saying that Germans were one the first to use Female courts, Just the all male courts were wider used. Unfortunately I forget the source. Now a days things are more standardized, but in period they were not. Although the national suitmarks were established early for German, Swiss, Italian, Spanish. Decks with other suits were common, usually there was a theme to the suits. In period cardmakers were respected artists. From the artists point of view it was numerous canvases to display you work. Herr Konrad Mailander Barony of Red Spears/Midrealm From: poch at sicorp.com Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: The Card Game Called Poch Date: 22 Nov 1996 21:23:37 GMT Organization: SSNet -- Public Internet Access in Delaware! The source that I used is Games of the World, Edited by Fredric V. Grunfeld Introduction by R.C.Bell Ballantine Books 1975 First Ballantine Books Edition: September 1977 Pages 117,124-5,(CP)125-126,141 16th Century Europe Poch from pochen in turn from bochen "I defy you" or "I stay in the game" Earliest reference (1558) in the works of Nuremberg Miestersinger, Hans Sachs The Oldest Poch Board in the Bavarian National Museum is dated 1527 P.S. I have since heard of two other references. P.P.S. I have heard an illusion to a reference from 1441. P.P.P.S. If anyone is interested, I might put up a page with pictures and detailed instructions from Games of the World. From: wmclean290 at aol.com (WMclean290) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Card Games, and the 14th century Date: 10 Sep 1996 04:53:02 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) justin at harp.camb.inmet.COM (Mark Waks) writes: >(Although it's >worth noting that what Americans usually think of as the "modern" deck >-- the French-suited 52-card one -- is actually one of the oldest >forms...) This needs to be qualified. One of the earliest references does describe a deck with ten numbered and three face cards in each suite. But it does not describe the suits, and as far as I know there is no firm evidence for the "French" suite signs of Hearts, Clubs, Diamonds, and Spades before the 1480s or so. Galleron From: rhayes at powerup.com.au (Robin Hayes) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Card Games, and the 14th century Date: 17 Sep 1996 08:03:28 GMT In article <9609091715.AA24655 at dsd.camb.inmet.com>, of 9 Sep 1996 13:17:29 -0400, Mark Waks of justin at harp.camb.inmet.COM says... > >Edwin Hewitt quotes from the History of Everyday Things: > >> "In the fourteenth century we hear of cards being played, >All of the above is drawn from memory of Michael Dummett's mammoth and >invaluable book, The Game of Tarot, which draws together essentially Another useful book is Fun and Games in Old Europe W. Endrei & L. Zolnay (A translation of an Hungarian original) Budapest 1986 - Corvina 1988 ISBN 963 13 2386 2 (Flyleaf says - orders to Kultura Budapest 62 P.O.B. 149 H-1389) A considerable emphasis on medieval things, pictures, etc. Cards are but a small section... P 49.. "Actual facts- the first berne prohibition (1367) and then the first references in Basel (1377), St Gall (1379), Nuremberg (1380), Flanders and Burgundy (1382) - confirm that between approx 1370 & 1400 card playing was a rapidly spreading popular game and not simply pastime for the gentry." and the card section continues up to P64 with many pictures from period sources. You may find this of interest, if you can track it down. I got mine from a disposal source. Robin [submitted by Magnus ] Subject: Re: Period Card Decks Info needed Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:33:57 -0500 (EST) From: David KUIJT To: Josh CC: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org On Wed, 6 Jan 1999, Josh wrote: > I am looking for anyone who has experience with making decks in > particular, who have or know how to make period "card decks", and/or > taro decks, for I am seriously looking to make least one of each for > personal use, and more if its not too tedious more if the demand is > there. Thanks ahead of time! I've written some articles on this stuff, and produced two different card decks based upon period models. What do you want to know? As for tarot decks, they are period, and there are a fairly large number of commercial reproductions of period and period-like tarot decks available. However, one note -- tarot decks were used for playing card games in period, not for any occult or cartomantic use. There is no evidence for cartomancy (telling the future with cards) before the 1780s, and the modern "Tarot" phenomenon has its roots in the late 19th century occultists. Dafydd [submitted by Magnus ] Subject: Playing Cards Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 14:38:16 -0500 From: "M. Stewart" To: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org Well I am not Dafydd or Eogan - but I do know a bit on this subject... The Cloisters has several examples of 1450 playing cards, German in origin. The cards are made of paste board and painted with tempera and ink. The drawings were simple, but colorful. The deck I saw contained 4 suits: hobbles, collars, nooses and horns. The scenes were based on a hunting theme. The various numerical values of the cards were simply represented by the number of the item from the suit. ie. a three of nooses had three nooses drawn on the front of the card. Noble cards were present: there were three in each suit, I can't swear what the three were. I think either Lady/Knight/Page or Queen/King/Jack The reverse side of the card was plain with only a narrow painted border. That's about as much as I can convey without having my picture of the cards in front of me. Bridgette Kelly MacLean The MacLean of Atlantia (mka Mari Stewart Ithaca, NY) ms154 at cornell.edu) Subject: Re: Period Card Decks Info needed(very long!) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 23:08:02 -0500 (EST) From: Josh To: David KUIJT , atlantia at atlantia.sca.org >> I am planning on playing an early french trick game with it. > >Which one? I am releasing this over the merry rose since a few gentles have shown a interest in learning a Tarot game who are on the Rose. If any one has a more documentable Tarot game I would love to get a copy of it. To those who do not have an interest I appologize for the wasted bandwidth. Any questions on the material should be directed privately to me. This is hand typed and therefore abridged in a few areas were the material in the originial was not fundamental to playing the game or its backround. The abridged areas are labelled accordingly. Anyone who would like a copy of the originial email me privately with address info(Us Mail only please). Tristan ap Elwin Marinusian Gamester not to be confused with the Gamemaster of Marinus Lord Celric who is an honorary marinusian. Game Report: Early French Tarot Class: Cards Type: Trick tacking Number of Players: four to six( four being the best) Date radacted: May 13, 1997 Redactor: Justin du Coeur Sources: Micheal Dummetts The Game of Tarot, London: Duckworth, 1980. This game is mostly Dummett's "Seventeenth-Century French Tarot(second version)" , combined with a few elements from the first version to fill out the game (pg. 215). Dummett's reconstruction is based mostly on La Maaison academique des jeux, 1659. Reconstuction: The Tarot deck reaches back well into period; while its exact origions are a bit unclear, it appears to have come into bveing not too many decades after the more "conventional" decks did in the latter half of the 14th century. All the available evidence indicates that tarot was used more less exclusively for card games during the Renassance; the Tarot's occult associations appear to have arisen later, in the 18 century. For a detailed examination of what is known about the occult history of the Tarot, the inestersted reader is referred to The Game of Tarot, which spends a couple of chapters on the subject. This dicussion will concern itself solely with a period game played with the deck. This particular Tarot variant is a fairley simple one, with most of the principal elements common to Tarot games and little else. The sources that this desciption comes from are slightly out of perod; I suspect that this iwas probably known in period( we know that Tarot Games were commen enough in period, and this is a fairly elemental version), but the pirist should get Dummetts book and judge for themselves. Equipment Abridged from originial since I am typing this from a hard copy and most of the information is redudent to those who are familar with Tarot. 78 card deck (wands swords coins and cups ace through ten, king queen knight page for each suit fourteen for each suit = 56 plus 22 major arcana. Play ( Abrigded because of space) 1. 12 cards are dealt to each person. 2. The person to the left of dealer lays the first card and everyone lays a card going in counter clockwise order. After everyone lays a card the player with the highest card of the same suit as the first card or highest trump wins. (A person can not lay a trump if he has a card of the same suit and may not use a different suit if he has the suit being played. The fool is however removed from this stricture) Card value is in the following order Ace 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Page knight Queen King Trump(Major Arcana) value is decided by the number of the card. Therefore the the Hermit (10) would beat the emperor (5) and the Lovers (7) would be defeated by the Devil (16). The fool never wins any hands but has a special ability. The fool can be played at any time even when the player can follow suit. The person who plays the fool automatically loses the trick but keeps the fool as if it was a won trick. The rest of the Trick is handed over to the winning player. The player who played the fool has to latter decide at the end of the hand (or before) on a card to give to the person who won the hand he played the fool in. If the player of the fool did not win a trick the player who won the hand he played the fool in gets the fool. So the only way to lose the fool is to not win a single trick. Since the fool is worth the most points one would be a fool indeed to give it otherwise. 3. the game plays in a similar fashion to hearts and spades. So anyone who is confused with the above explanation of a Trick should refer to hearts or Spades. Anyone who still has questions can email me. 4. After the 12 tricks are played then count the cards as follows: a. Count the number of cards you have won all together. If you exceed 12 cards in this count you get one point per card of excess. For every card your missing to reach the total of 12 take away one point. After you get that total of loss points or gain point look for the following cards and score them accordingly: The Fool: 5 points The World(Trump 21): 4 points Magician(Trump 1): 4 points each King: 4 points each Queen: 3 points each Knight: 2 points each Page: 1 points The other cards do not garner points for individual cards but can be used for the card total point award above. The game is played to 50 points. Though it is possible to exceed 50 points simotaneously with other people. The way to handle this should be decided upon before game play commences. Summary: The order of play is: * Deal 12 cards to each player * Play 12 tricks in a hand: you must follow suit if possible, and if not possible, you must play trump if possible. Therefore if you cannot follow suit you must play a trump, and if that is not possible you can play another suit. (Of course if you play another suit you cannot win the trick) *The Fool serves as the Excuse; it cannot win a trick, but the player who playued the Fool immediately takes it back and replaces it with another card >from his winnings. He only need to surrender the Fool if he never win any other card to replace it with in that hand. Lose one point for each card under 12 you end up with; gain one point for each card over 12. Add the value of the scoring cards. The game is played to 50 points. Opinional Rules for Gambling Purposes(written by Tristan Ap Elwin and dedicated to Rabah's Caravan hope you find use for it Rabah:) All of these rules, some, or non can be used without majorley changing the playability of the game. These rules are no way researched as a period form of gambling and may entirely be unperiod in nature. Though commen sense would dictate some form of gambling is possible with this game, and these rules are reasonable in that fashion. These rules add a whole new dimension to the game. Opitional Rule 1: A pot is exstablished at the beggining of the game. The amount each player must bid should be discussed or may even be handled like in poker. The player who gets to 50 wins the pot. Optional Rule 2a:Each trick every player bids x amount of coins. The person who wins the trick doubles his bid from the house. Everyone elses bid goes to the house. Optional Rule 2b: A player may place a bid at the beginning of any trick before any cards are played. Any bid of a losing player on the table after the trick is lost goes to the house. Any winning bid can ride to the next trick. Any winning bid can be cashed in between any two tricks. Use the chart below for cash in values: 1 winning trick double the bid 2 winning tricks triple the bid 3 winning tricks x4 times the bid and so on...... I hope everyone who read this will least play a few hands. Its lots of fun. Tristan ap Elwin [Submitted by: rmhowe ] Subject: Re: Playing Cards (fwd) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 11:09:38 -0500 (EST) From: David KUIJT To: Atlantia Mailing List Kathryn Rous wrote: > The decks were not intended to be played with? Please tell me more > about this! > > (oh, I just realized this is not going to the list as well...maybe your > answer should, though?) All the decks mentioned are stunning and expensive works of art, hand-made by the most adept artists a wealthy patron could command. They show no signs of ever having been used for card games. Some of them (the playing cards of Master E.S., for example) are printed on paper too thin to stand the rigours of play. The Visconti-Sforza and Cary-Yale Visconti decks were painted in the shop, and partly by the hand, of Bonifacio Bembo, one of the premier painters of his day. Although the artisans who painted the Hunting deck and Hofamterspiel aren't known, they were clearly adept. I believe that some of the bills for production of one of the Bembo decks survive; there are also bills for production of similar decks including one for Charles VI of France (the deck does not survive). Although translation of expense to modern terms is inexact, it is clear that these were commissioned masterpieces and very expensive. One measurement of comparison frequently used is the cost of a car being about the same as a cost of a horse: by that measure, one of the decks of Bembo cards might have cost its patron $300,000 or more; perhaps ten times as much. If I get time, I'll try to find exact figures (the above quote is >from my vague memory, and certainly shouldn't be considered infallible). The reason that so many beautiful decks survive is exactly because they were never used for playing. At an educated quess, millions of playing card decks were produced a year during the 15th century. Something on the order of a dozen decks survive in full or in part from the 15th century. Almost all of the survivors are premier examples of fine artistry never used for playing. In an era before plastic-coating of cards a deck probably was tattered and stained after a single long evening's play. The idea of playing a card game with such a deck is similar to the idea of using a commissioned painting by a master painter as a tablecloth. Dafydd [Submitted by: rmhowe ] Subject: Re: Playing Cards Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:22:25 -0500 (EST) From: David KUIJT To: "M. Stewart" CC: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org Bridgette Kelly MacLean wrote describing the Hunting Deck in the Cloisters; I've got a few small corrections and additions to her note. Two minor corrections: I believe that the Hunting deck is French in origin, not German; further, I think it is dated to the later 15th century (not as early as 1450). Some additions: the Hunting deck, like the Hofamterspiel, Cary-Yale Visconti, Visconti-Sforza, or the circular copper-point engraving deck by Master E.S. of 1466, was never intended to be played with. The later 15th century was a period of experimentation into alternative suit-signs from the standard Italian/Spanish suit signs (Coins, Swords, Batons, and Cups). The German, Swiss, and French suit systems arose in the last half of the 15th century, as did a wide variety of suit signs that did not gain general acceptance. The period of experimentation seems to have mostly ended by the middle of the 16th century. Dafydd Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 20:05:22 -0400 From: rmhowe To: stefan at texas.net CC: Lynn Meyer Subject: Re: Blockprinting article To your Blockprinting notes you can add the citation of this Card book with the note that it depicts the process of making playing cards from a Parisian print of 1690. A workshop of about twenty men making cards is depicted. Old and Curious Playing Cards by H.T. Morley, early 1900's, reprinted by Wellfleet Press (who conveniently left out the earlier edition information dammit! Post 1906. Printed in an earlier style.). This edition Bracken Books 1989, ISBN 1555215041. A single woodblock was used to print the background lines of all the cards per suit. (Master Dafydd ap Gwystl, OL, OP, KSCA, Royal Peer, has made one of these. He is in doctoral studies in Atlantia.) It was also used to imprint stencil cards which were then laid on the sheets from the original printing. Individual areas on the stencils were cut out according to the color desired and the colors were applied using large flat bottomed brushes with a round top about the size of a palm and several inches high. Rather like a very dense shoe brush. Magnus Malleus, OL Windmasters' Hill, Atlantia, Great Dark Horde From: bronwynmgn at aol.comnospam (Bronwynmgn) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Date: 19 Nov 2000 15:01:26 GMT Subject: Re: Period playing cards "Steven Maynard" writes: >Does anyone have any sites that has piccies of period playing >cards (the earlier the better.) or any site with descriptions of what was on >the cards? Try this one - I know they have info on and sell sets of period playing cards. http://www.historicgames.com Brangwayna Morgan From: Chas Organization: á Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period playing cards Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 19:00:41 GMT Morgan Wolf wrote: > For what it's worth, remember that Tarot cards were originally playing > cards, since "fortune telling" would have gotten the teller burned. I used > a deck of Tarot cards as playing cards, basically playing Hearts with LOTS > of trumps (higher # high arcana cards trumping lower # high arcana) at a > couple of events a few years ago, got LOTS of people telling me that "the > cards don't like that", and "you're really meesing up their energy, you'll > never get a good reading now" and so on. Imagine their various reactions > when I pointed out that my use of the cards was period, and theirs was a > death sentence. It's strange, that for some reason tarot games (which have been around since the 1400's) have never really caught on in English-speaking countries, so most Americans are often only familiar with them as fortune telling tools. A subject of debate between modern tarot readers and game historians is how early tarots were used for cartomancy (fortunetelling with cards). There are records in Italian witch trials of the "devil" tarot card used by accused witches, but according to the game historians there's no good evidence for the theory that the card games were used to camouflage fortunetelling. According to David Parlett in his "Oxford Guide to Card Games" the earliest reliable documentation for cartomancy is in the late 1700's and appears about the same time that solitaire/patience card games started becoming popular. He seems to suggest that some of the early solitaire card games were used as novelty fortunetelling games ("he-loves-me, he-loves-me-not" kind of things) which may have evolved into the more elaborate cartomancy practices we know today. If I were to go for a master's degree I've thought it would be interesting to do an in-depth study of the art and symbolism used on tarot cards. -If- cartomancy didn't begin until the late 1700's, one might expect an increase or change in some of the magical/mystical symbols being used in the tarot cards designed after that time. A site for more information on the history of cards and this debate, as well as some images of early cards is at International Playing-Card Society http://www.pagat.com/ipcs/ Chas -- MacGregor Games Purveyors of historic pastimes to re-enactors around the world http://www.historicgames.com Historic Merchants' E-list http://www.historicgames.com/histmerch.html From: Dmckeon at swcp.com (Denis McKeon) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period playing cards Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 09:47:29 -0800 In David Friedman wrote: >In article <8vb9jl$8ht$1 at nnrp1.deja.com>, trevor_barker at my-deja.com >wrote: >> In France, Tarot is a popular game similar to Whist. (The aim is to >> capture tricks, especially ones that include trumps and noble cards.) > >But the deck they use for that is not the same as the tarot deck used >for fortune telling. As best I recall, the suits are swords, wands, >cups, and coins but the greater arcana aren't included. There are certainly different forms of the game of Tarots, but those I have seen played in Brittany did use the greater arcana - I recall that the Fool had some special significance either in play as a super-trump or in counting tricks or points. Details are at: http://www.pagat.com/tarot/frtarot.html The deck usually used for the game is a fairly classic Tarot deck, known as the "Marseilles" deck, and can be found in stores in France along with playing cards intended for other games such as bridge (decks sold in pairs), and the usual single decks as used in the USA for poker. One could use the Marseilles deck for cartomancy, or any of the several hundred currently available Tarot decks. The game of Tarots as I have seen it played is fairly complex - imagine the bidding and implicit signaling of bridge crossed with the rule complexity of the variation of 7-card stud poker called Hi-Low Chicago. During and after the bidding phase, various players combine into groups (usually of 2 and 3, IIRC), making it a very social game. For a different variation on the Tarot, examine the "Five of Cubicles" in the Silicon Valley Tarot, at: http://www.svtarot.com/net/ Bennet -- Denis McKeon From: "Chris CII" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period playing cards Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 19:22:42 +0100 Organization: Wanadoo, l'internet avec France Telecom "David Friedman" wrote: > trevor_barker at my-deja.com wrote: > > In France, Tarot is a popular game similar to Whist. (The aim is to > > capture tricks, especially ones that include trumps and noble cards.) > > But the deck they use for that is not the same as the tarot deck used > for fortune telling. As best I recall, the suits are swords, wands, > cups, and coins but the greater arcana aren't included. > -- > David/Cariadoc > http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Medieval/Medieval.html The french Tarot can be played with many kinds of decks. The only requisite is to have 4 suits of 14 cards : Numbers from 1 to 10 and Jack, Knight, Queen, King And one suit of 22 cards : One unnumbered and 21 numbered from 1 to 21. Mostly you see modern tarot games with "standard" suits club heart spade diamond, and trumps just numbered. and "Marseille" tarot games with club coin sword cup and the 21 trumps having names as well. Immediately I recall 12 the hanging man 13 Death 14 Temperance 15 Devil 20 Jugement 21 The World. If anyone wants more info I can gladly expound or even show a few scans of "Marseille" decks. -- Salutations, Greetings, Guiraud Belissen, Drachenwald, Chris CII, Rennes, France From: David Razler Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period playing cards Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 22:51:53 GMT On Mon, 20 Nov 2000 08:48:37 -0800, David Friedman wrote: > trevor_barker at my-deja.com wrote: >> In France, Tarot is a popular game similar to Whist. (The aim is to >> capture tricks, especially ones that include trumps and noble cards.) > >But the deck they use for that is not the same as the tarot deck used >for fortune telling. As best I recall, the suits are swords, wands, >cups, and coins but the greater arcana aren't included. Actually, the reverse! The official deck of the French Tarot associations uses the "French" suits of club-diamond-heart-spade + the "major arcana" although the trump suit may not bear the symbols and names that have become standard in most Tarrochi decks. The German Tarrok decks combine a "short deck" similar to the 32/33-card jass/clubyash deck with trump cards bearing only roman numerals for a total of 54 cards - the suits can be either French or Italian (swords/wands/cups/coins) or German season suits (leaves, hearts, acorns, bells). The tarot deck "used for fortunetelling" was originally designed as a deck for playing games, with several styles of "major arcana" that became "standardized" for fortunetelling when those seeking to separate the gullable from their cash found a new method of divination they could insist was ancient and functional. Interestingly, the 33 card Germanic short deck (32 cards + a joker/super-trump called a welli) was adopted for divination. Piatnik, the premier Hungarian card-maker (now HQ'd in the former West Germany) sells several divination deck versions of the short deck. Longship Trading had some of these post-period designs For the best info, check out The Playing Card Rules Pages at (old address) http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/pagat/ for games new, old and period, and links for obtaining cards of all kinds. d/A From: David Razler Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period playing cards Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 21:01:21 GMT On Tue, 21 Nov 2000 11:08:52 -0800, David Friedman wrote: > "Chris CII" wrote: >> "David Friedman" wrote in message >> news:ddfr-7F2952.19264820112000 at nntp1.ba.best.com... >> > It sounds as though my memory (of what I had observed travelling in >> > Europe a good many years ago) was mistaken. Either that or there are >> > both decks with and decks without the major aracana, and I happened to >> > observe the later. >> > -- >> > David/Cariadoc >> > http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Medieval/Medieval.html >> >> The standard french Tarot deck has 78 cards 4 suits of 14 cards and a suit >> of 22 cards which corrsponds to the major arcana but is not recognisable as >> such because it has cards only numbered and without any name or image. >> >> In parallel there also exists the "Marseille" Tarot deck, used more for >> fortune-telling but quite suited for playing tarots, which has clearly >> identifiable major arcana. >> >> There is another quite practiced game which is the "belote" played with a >> standard 32 card game. >> >> And there are also a lot of 54 card games ( 4 suits of 13 cards) used in >> a lot of games. > >Do some of them use cups, wands, coins and swords as the suits? I think >that was what suggested tarot to me. > >Incidentally, 4 suits of 13 cards comes to 52--the standard deck here. The following refers to a combination of modern and semi-period decks: 4 suits of 13 + 2 jokers (Clubs Diamonds Hearts Spades) is the standard "French" deck. 4 suits of 14 or 56 (sometimes + 1 fool) is a deck used in a few games ( French suits, (CDHS), very rarely Germanic (Leaves Hearts Acorns Bells), more often Italian (Clubs/Staves Coins<"penticle" is a 19th C invented name for this suit>, Cups, Swords) 4 suites of 14 + 22 trumps (either the Roman-numbered trumps or one of the kinds of figured allegorical trumps) is used to play Tarot. The Germanic/Swiss Jass deck consists of 32 cards in 4 suits (roman numerals 7-10, 3 court cards and an ace or season card) + a supertrump/joker called a welli. (i.e. Piatnik #1808) The court cards are usually figures out of the William Tell legend, and the language changes depending on where the cards are produced. My at 100-year-old Piatnik Hungarian deck bears almost the same designs as an off-the-shelf 1808, though the older cards give the names in Magyar, the new in Deutch. The Germanic/Swiss Tarock deck (i.e. Piatnik #1936) consists of four french suits, the red ace-4+4 court cards, the black 7-10+4 court cards and 21 trumps bearing ruman numerals 1-21 and an un-numberd fool. In Switzerland, one of the Germanic suits, I believe hearts, is replaced by flowers. Spanish decks run 40 or 50 cards, with the Italian suits = in the 50 card deck, (i.e. Heraclio Fournier bar codes 0-73854-00020-5 and ...25-0 repectively) the cards are numbered 1-12, with the 10,11 and 12 depicting low male, higher female and crowned male respectively + 2 jokers. The 40-card deck consists of similar cards minus jokers, 8s and 9s. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- In addition to the "standard" divinators Tarot of 4*14+22, there is the Germanic divination deck of 32 (i.e. Piatnik 1901-1904 and 1944) also sold as "Gypsy Fortune Telling Cards". These vary considerably from the original Eastern European cartomancy practices apparently involving the Jass deck. The 1901 and 1904 Piatnik decks are suitless and each card bears a name (fortune, letter, sweetheart, lover, house, fidelity, jelousy, sadness .... illness, gift, journey). 1944, a reproduction of a deck of apparently Victorian vintage, bears allegorical images, card numbers (1-32) astrological images in sinister chief and cards numbered for Jass (4 suits 7-10, 3 court cards and an ace using the FRENCH suites!!). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- MY BRAIN HURTS! david/Aleksandr From: Nils K Hammer Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period playing cards Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 18:52:07 -0500 Organization: Csd Education - Phd, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA When master John took me to Italy a few years ago cards were one of my primary things to look for. Folks have been asking me to do a woodcut tarot deck one of these days. Modern italians play "tarocci" today, and don't seem to have any idea of what our mystic association with them is. The Visconti-Sforza deck is solidly period. There are some of its cards in a museuum in Venice. You can by a very nice reproduction from USA games. I have not yet learned which of the original cards were missing and replaced by competant modern artists. The Marseille deck looks to me to be slightly post-period. None of the other decks I've seen compare with these two for SCA authenticity. nils From: "Chris CII" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period playing cards Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 20:06:21 +0100 Organization: Wanadoo, l'internet avec France Telecom "David Friedman" wrote in message news:ddfr-8E32AD.11085221112000 at nntp1.ba.best.com... quoting me : > > The standard french Tarot deck has 78 cards 4 suits of 14 cards and a suit > > of 22 cards which corrsponds to the major arcana but is not recognisable as > > such because it has cards only numbered and without any name or image. > > > > In parallel there also exists the "Marseille" Tarot deck, used more for > > fortune-telling but quite suited for playing tarots, which has clearly > > identifiable major arcana. > > Do some of them use cups, wands, coins and swords as the suits? I think > that was what suggested tarot to me. Yes, the so-called "Marseille" tarot uses exactly these suits and has labeled and pictured major arcana. Incidentally it's actual design is clearly post-period being from around 1820. However there are quite period designs of the same deck. > Incidentally, 4 suits of 13 cards comes to 52--the standard deck here. Exactly 4 suits of 13 cards + 2 jokers are the 54 card standard deck. But Tarot games have 14 cards a suit : 1 to 10 then Jack Knight Queen King So 4 suits of 14 cards + 21 major arcana + the Fool makes 78 cards (standard tarot deck size) Hope this helps. If somebody should need them I can upload a few scans of standard and Marseille tarot cards. From: tarocchi7 at yahoo.com (Huck) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Tarot Museum & History / Playing Card development 14th/15th century Date: 18 Jul 2004 16:01:42 -0700 Tarot Museum http://trionfi.com/0/s/b/ Playing Card Museum http://trionfi.com/0/s/ Tarot History (15th century): http://trionfi.com/ Specific researches: Oldest Tarotcards (? 1424/1425) http://trionfi.com/0/b/ Ferrara 1441 http://trionfi.com/0/d/ documents early playing cards http://trionfi.com/0/e1/ Trionfi documents htp://trionfi.com/0/e2/ Playing cards Tarot timeline (1370 - 1800): http://trionfi.com/0/j/ From: tarocchi7 at yahoo.com (Huck) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: 15th century Tarocchi and playing cards Date: 3 Oct 2004 17:27:11 -0700 Tarot Timeline http://trionfi.com/0/j/ Tarot History http://trionfi.com/ Playing Cards Museum http://trionfi.com/0/s/ Web Tarot Museum http://trionfi.com/0/s/b/ Tarot News http://trionfi.com/0/n/ this month with article to Andrea Vitali Edited by Mark S. 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