games-cards-msg - 2/27/08
Period card games and card decks.
NOTE: See also the files: games-msg, darts-msg, games-SCA-msg, golf-msg, sports-msg, cloved-fruit-msg, child-gam-msg, Tarot-Crd-Ruls-art.
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NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.
Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).
Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: mfy at sli.com (Mike Yoder)
Date: 24 Feb 91 03:08:23 GMT
Organization: Software Leverage, Inc. Arlington, Ma
From the bibiography in Stuart R. Kaplan's _Tarot Classic_:
"Marcolini, Francesco. _Le Sorti di Francesco Marcolini da Forli, intitulate
Giardino di Pensieri, allo Illustrissimo Signore Hercole Estense, Duca di
Ferrar_. Venice. 1540. Illustrated. Text in Italian.
One of the earliest known books employing cards for divination. Contains
99 woodcuts. Depicts the suit of deniers. Questions are answered
depending upon a kind of oracular triplet to which one is directed based
upon the drawing of one or two cards. A second edition was published in
1550."
After that there is a gap of two and a quarter centuries to the next
reference, which is the origin of the modern Tarot reading methods:
"Court de Gebilin, Antoine. _Le Monde Primitif, analyse' et compare' avec le
monde moderne_. ... Paris 1775 to 1784. Nine volumes. Text in French."
(The ticks after "analyse" and "compare" should be over the final E's.)
Various card decks existed in period, some of which contained 78 cards divided
into 4 14-card suits and 22 trumps including the Fool. The earliest evidence
cited in Kaplan is "from a handwritten treatise presently in the collection of
the British Museum in London" by a German monk named Johannes, writing at
Brefeld, Switzerland. He says "a game called the game of cards (ludus
cartarum) has come to us in this year 1377" but he professes ignorance as to
when it was invented, where and by whom. He says that "there are kings,
queens, chief nobles and common people" and that men "paint the cards in
different manners, and play with them in one way or another. For the common
form, and as it came to us: four kings are depicted on four cards, each of
whom sits on a royal throne, and each holds a sign in his hand."
Franz Joder von Joderhuebel (Michael F. Yoder) [...uunet!sli!mfy]
The soul's Rialto hath its merchandise.
-- Elizabeth Barrett Browning, _Sonnets From the Portuguese_, sonnet XIX.
From: haslock at oleum.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Horde Info
Date: 6 Jan 1994 21:18:08 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Greetings from Fiacha,
R.C.Bell has written about Mahjongg more than once. I don't have his work on
hand but he says something like. "'bork' first records Mahjong in the late 19th
century. In the absence of any other written reference to the game I assume
that it is a recent invention". He describes various other Chinese 'domino' type
games and card garms, so it isn't as if the Chinese only started recording games
in the 19th century.
A book on card games (the definitive work on tarot cards whose title I forget)
noted the existance of card games in China as early as the tenth century. These
had suits virtually identical to those of mahjong tiles, but more of them.
Either the author or myself concluded that mahjong is a late derivative of one
of the early card games with a presumed late date for the conversion of the
cards to tiles.
Basically, we have some knowledge of period chinese games that does not mention
mahjong so it is reasonable to assume that mahjong is post period.
Fiacha, Kingdom Gamesmaster for AnTir
haslock at zso.dec.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: a-mikem at ac.tandem.com (mckay_michael)
Subject: Re: Referance Help on Cards
Organization: Atalla Corporation - San Jose, CA.
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 19:38:22 GMT
In article <3l54gs$7v3 at newsbf02.news.aol.com> lordstyx at aol.com (Lord Styx) writes:
>I am trying to find the origons of the card Deck. I have been told it came
>from the tarot deck, I would like to be able to find out can anyone steer
>me in the right direction. What books I might look in to find this
>information, I would like to find the first recored card deck, and it's use.
>Alaric Wolfgang Von Mellenthin
Basically, the first mention of cards in Europe are Dutch in 1371. Cards
started in Spain and Italy (many arguments about who was first). Although
card suits flucutated quite a bit during the early period, most of the
national suits were standardized within SCA period (note that many countries
have their own standard suits). The first mention of the Tarot deck dates
to the early 1400's. The idea of Trump cards (first used with the
dedicated cards as in the Tarot deck, later used for any card) seems to be
a European invention.
There are many conflicting stories on how cards came to Europe. The most
colorful is the "brought by Gypsies tail", but cards were well established by
the time Gypsies first appeared in Europe (late 1400's). Current thinking
(Michael Drummit, "Book of the Tarot") is that it came from Egypt. They have
found cards in Egyptian tombs (1200's) which are very similar to early
Italian and Spanish cards. Cards were in use by India and China for quite a
while before Europe (theory is they went to Egypt first).
I am still new to this subject, but have very much enjoyed "The Oxford
Book of Card Games" which has a wealth of medieval history and card game
descriptions.
Seaan McAy Caer Darth; Darkwood; Mists; West (Santa Cruz, CA)
From: brgarwood at aol.com (BRgarwood)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Period card games (was Great Dalmut)
Date: 18 Nov 1995 08:04:40 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
In article <48gcql$mu9 at blues.epas.utoronto.ca>,
sclark at blues.epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Carroll-Clark) writes:
> Perhaps we might discuss period card games? A number of them are
>a terrific lot of fun.
Last week we spent a whole Sunday learning to play "Troccas" (sp), which
is an ancient card game from France/Switzerland. The member who was
teaching us learned it on a trip to visit her relatives, who speack
Romanche (sp) if that tells you where it is.
Its played with a Tarot deck (I suppose any deck with 5 suits and 72
card would do), and works a lot like whist, except some suits count
backwards, and the Troccas suit (the cards with big pictures) are always
trump. The scoring is really obnoxious, I still havent figurred it out.
If anyone is interested i'll post a copy of the rules.
berwyn
From: david.razler at compudata.com (DAVID RAZLER)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period card games (was Gr
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 95 16:39:00 -0400
Organization: Compu-Data BBS -=- Turnersville, NJ -=- 609-232-1245
B>> Perhaps we might discuss period card games? A number of them
B>are >a terrific lot of fun.
B>Last week we spent a whole Sunday learning to play "Troccas" (sp),
B>which is an ancient card game from France/Switzerland. The member who
B>was teaching us learned it on a trip to visit her relatives, who
B>speack Romanche (sp) if that tells you where it is.
B> Its played with a Tarot deck (I suppose any deck with 5 suits and
B>72 card would do), and works a lot like whist, except some suits count
B>backwards, and the Troccas suit (the cards with big pictures) are
B>always trump. The scoring is really obnoxious, I still havent
B>figurred it out. If anyone is interested i'll post a copy of the
B>rules.
B>berwyn
B>
Check out CA #s 4 and 71. Also, The Fleet Hart, 2807 Jefferson Drive,
Alexandria, Va. 22303 has published a nice little 17-page pamphlet, that
is generally provided to purchasers of their large range of Tarot decks.
ALSO: If anyone IS looking for very playable plastic coated, slightly
out-of-period (designed 1824) Tarrock (54-card) or
Doppeldeutch/Jass/Clubbijass (33-card) decks, I have plenty, due to a
failure at merchantdom $9 for Tarrock $4.50 Doppeldeutch. I can
accurately date the cards because I have both the current decks and my
great-great-grandfather's, made by the same company. Designs are
identical, and based on eastern European designs going back into period.
Hopelessly Commercial,
Aleksandr the Traveller
[david.razler at compudata.com]
From: dpeters at panix.com (D. Peters)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period card games (was Great Dalmut)
Date: 21 Nov 1995 17:05:20 -0500
Organization: Panix
In article <tstuber-2011951114570001 at jmoffett.uoregon.edu>,
Trudi Stuber <tstuber at oregon.uoregon.edu> wrote:
>Does any one out there have the rules for a game known as "Hazzard?"
>If you do could you please e-mail me at: tstuber at oregon.uoregon.edu
>Thanks in advance
>Trudchen
Actually, Hazzard is a dice game, not a card game. I was going to type
out the rules, but they're rather long, so here's a couple bibliographic
cites:
Nelson, Walter. _Ye Merrie Gamester_ Available from Merchant
Adventurers Perss, 7341 Etiwanda Ave., Reseda CA 91335
Smith, Patrick J. _Period Pastimes_ (Compleat Anachronist #71)
Available from SCA Stock Clerk
Happy gaming!
D.Peters
From: leeu at celsiustech.se (Leif Euren)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period card games (was Great Dalmut)
Date: 21 Nov 1995 10:05:04 +0100
Organization: CelsiusTech AB
Berwyn wrote:
> "Troccas" ... played with a Tarot deck ... and the Troccas suit are
> always trump. The scoring is really obnoxious,
:
> If anyone is interested i'll post a copy of the rules.
This sounds exactly like "Tarocci", a game from 15 c Italy.
Please post the rules, and I'll get my copy of my Tarocci rules and
post the documentation.
--
Peder Klingrode | Leif Euren Stockholm, Sweden
Holmrike, Nordmark, Drachenwald | leeu at celsiustech.se
From: Randy Martens <randym at lvld.hp.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Period and OOP card games (was: Re: THE GREAT DALMUTI)
Date: 21 Nov 1995 19:02:22 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard
sclark at blues.epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Carroll-Clark) wrote:
>Greetings!
> I enjoy this game, as I posted earlier. But I agree with Arval--
>not at events. However, it's a lot of fun at the pub or other similar
>situations--(we "period police" do have lives outside the SCA, you know)--
>in a way, it's a lot like _Cathedral_--not at all period,
>but with a medieval ambiance to it. As such, it's at least better than
>MAGIC at events. But why sit around playing a modern card game with so
>many other period things to do?
> Perhaps we might discuss period card games? A number of them are
>a terrific lot of fun.
>
>Primero, anyone?
Another fine game with a mideval flavor, but *NOT* a period game, is
"Plague & Pestilence", a charming little card game with nice
period looking art, all about trying to get your town to survive
the black plague. Loads of fun, but like Dalmuti, only appropriate
in limited settings (in your tent at the war, in a quiet corner away
from the bustle of activity at a pub event).
I would vehemently object folk playing Magic (even though i play it
mundanely, and enjoy the game) at an event, because it is BLATANTLY
non period.
Is there a source for period card games? I have a very nice replica
peiod deck, and would like to learn some. Is Schafskopf a period game?
Yours in service to the Dream,
Lord Andreas Syndikus Drachenfreund von Ossenheim
From: dpeters at panix.com (D. Peters)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Is Euchre Period? (was Re: games)--LONGISH
Date: 21 Nov 1995 16:54:12 -0500
Organization: Panix
In article <199511160227.SAA10407 at lalaw.lib.ca.us>,
Pat Lammerts <pat at lalaw.lib.CA.US> wrote:
>Steven Rettig wrote:
>
>>I also directed it to those want something to play at a post revel besdes
>>UNO or Euchre.
>
>Last I heard, UNO and Euchre are not period games. (I could be
>wrong about Euchre. Cards are not my forte.)
Euchre is a descendant of Triomphe, a period French game. To quote the
_Compleat Anachronist_ (titled "How to While Away a Siege", or something
to that effect):
"Triomphe is a somewhat earlier (c. 1550?) card game, played with a
36-card pack which differs from our 52-card pack in that it lacks
twos, threes, fours, and fives. The Ace ranks between the Knave and
the Ten in this game. The game can be played by four people in
partnerships or by just two people against each other. Each player
receives five cards, dealt two to teach, then three to each; the trump
suit is the suit of the next card in the stock. Play is normal
trick-taking, with the players required to follow suit and to win the
trick, if able. A player or side winning the majority of the tricks
scores one point; two points for taking all five tricks. Game is
usually five points. If a player or side is not happy with their cards,
they can offer the point to the other side. In this case, that side
can either accept the point or refuse it. However, if they refuse,
they are obliged to win all five tricks or have two points scored
against them."
A few major differences between Triomphe and Euchre:
(1) Players cannot choose trump suit
(2) Players cannot go alone or defend alone
(3) Play is only to five points, not ten
It appears that the strategy in this game comes in knowing when it would
be to your advantage to offer the point to the other side. Some of my
friends and I have tried Triomphe; unfortunately, the majority opinion
was that it seemed rather tame, and we switched to Ruff-and-Honors, an
Elizabethan ancestor of Bridge, which is more challenging.
Other SCA sources for period card games include the Oak (the Atlantian A
& S newsletter), and Full Deck Imagery (the gentleman who makes the
replica Renaissance playing cards).
Playing at cards with one's friends or Bad Companions is a fine way to
achieve more of a period ambience at events. Try it and see!
Cheers,
D.Peters
From: brgarwood at aol.com (BRgarwood)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period card games (LONG)
Date: 23 Nov 1995 07:10:14 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
OK, due to many requests, here are the rules for playing Troccas. This is
a long one.
Rules to play Troccas
The cards
There are 78 cards: 4 different suits, 21 troccas and one fool
(le mat).
The Suits
The suits are: sword, cup, stick and rose. Each suit has 14
cards: 4 figures (king, queen, knight, servant [valet]) and 10
cards numbered from I-X. X is best in swords and sticks, and I is best
in cups and roses. Figures are the best in all suits from King high to
valet low.
Troccas
Troccas cards are numbered XXI to I. XXI is the best. Troccas
cards beat all of the suits. Think trump.
The Fool (le mat)
The fool is a neutral card. You can play it anytime. It beats
nothing. It also can not be beaten. If someone plays the fool as the
first card, the next player chooses the suit. If the point (trick) goes
to the other team the losing team takes a card (no points) from the played
pile and keeps the fool. The fool is place on face down on the played
pile. If one team takes all the tricks, the fool and the scart also go to
the winning team. This rarely happens. (Think 'shoot the moon')
The Honors.
All cards with a value of 5 points are called Honors. The kings,
the fool (le mat), the XXI (le monde), and the I (le bateleur).
To begin the game.
To play you need four people. Somebody shuffles the cards, his
neighbor at the left cuts the deck. The shuffler lays the card from the
top in the middle of the table. Then every player takes one card,
beginning with the player on the shuffler's right. The players take a
card until everybody gets a trocca. The 2 players with the highest
troccas are a team and the 2 players with the lowest troccas are a team.
Dealing the cards.
The player who had the lowest trocca is the first "scartist". He
has to deal the cards for the first hand. He shuffles, the neighbor on
his left cuts the cards. The scartist takes the pile and deals, beginning
with the neighbor on his right. Everybody gets 6 cards, then 6 more, and
finally 7 cards. The scartist always shows the 7th card to all the other
players. The scartist gets 9 cards at the end rather than 7. Three
players have 19 cards and the scartist (dealer) has 21.
Make the "Scart"
The scartist has 2 cards more than the others. He can lay down 2
cards: make the 'scart'. This can give him an advantage. The scartist
prefers to lay down cards of a suit, where he is' short'. That allows him
to beat the king or queen of the other team with a Trocca. If he isn't
able to eliminate a suit, he lays down figures of a suit in which he has
lots of cards. The scartist puts the two cards in from of him on the
table, the other players should not see the cards in the scart. The
points in the scart are counted at the end of the hand with the other
points taken by the team. There are certain cards that can't be placed in
the scart.
Honors (kings, fool, XXI and I)