games-cards-msg - 2/27/08
Period card games and card decks.
NOTE: See also the files: games-msg, darts-msg, games-SCA-msg, golf-msg, sports-msg, cloved-fruit-msg, child-gam-msg, Tarot-Crd-Ruls-art.
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This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
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Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: mfy at sli.com (Mike Yoder)
Date: 24 Feb 91 03:08:23 GMT
Organization: Software Leverage, Inc. Arlington, Ma
From the bibiography in Stuart R. Kaplan's _Tarot Classic_:
"Marcolini, Francesco. _Le Sorti di Francesco Marcolini da Forli, intitulate
Giardino di Pensieri, allo Illustrissimo Signore Hercole Estense, Duca di
Ferrar_. Venice. 1540. Illustrated. Text in Italian.
One of the earliest known books employing cards for divination. Contains
99 woodcuts. Depicts the suit of deniers. Questions are answered
depending upon a kind of oracular triplet to which one is directed based
upon the drawing of one or two cards. A second edition was published in
1550."
After that there is a gap of two and a quarter centuries to the next
reference, which is the origin of the modern Tarot reading methods:
"Court de Gebilin, Antoine. _Le Monde Primitif, analyse' et compare' avec le
monde moderne_. ... Paris 1775 to 1784. Nine volumes. Text in French."
(The ticks after "analyse" and "compare" should be over the final E's.)
Various card decks existed in period, some of which contained 78 cards divided
into 4 14-card suits and 22 trumps including the Fool. The earliest evidence
cited in Kaplan is "from a handwritten treatise presently in the collection of
the British Museum in London" by a German monk named Johannes, writing at
Brefeld, Switzerland. He says "a game called the game of cards (ludus
cartarum) has come to us in this year 1377" but he professes ignorance as to
when it was invented, where and by whom. He says that "there are kings,
queens, chief nobles and common people" and that men "paint the cards in
different manners, and play with them in one way or another. For the common
form, and as it came to us: four kings are depicted on four cards, each of
whom sits on a royal throne, and each holds a sign in his hand."
Franz Joder von Joderhuebel (Michael F. Yoder) [...uunet!sli!mfy]
The soul's Rialto hath its merchandise.
-- Elizabeth Barrett Browning, _Sonnets From the Portuguese_, sonnet XIX.
From: haslock at oleum.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Horde Info
Date: 6 Jan 1994 21:18:08 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation
Greetings from Fiacha,
R.C.Bell has written about Mahjongg more than once. I don't have his work on
hand but he says something like. "'bork' first records Mahjong in the late 19th
century. In the absence of any other written reference to the game I assume
that it is a recent invention". He describes various other Chinese 'domino' type
games and card garms, so it isn't as if the Chinese only started recording games
in the 19th century.
A book on card games (the definitive work on tarot cards whose title I forget)
noted the existance of card games in China as early as the tenth century. These
had suits virtually identical to those of mahjong tiles, but more of them.
Either the author or myself concluded that mahjong is a late derivative of one
of the early card games with a presumed late date for the conversion of the
cards to tiles.
Basically, we have some knowledge of period chinese games that does not mention
mahjong so it is reasonable to assume that mahjong is post period.
Fiacha, Kingdom Gamesmaster for AnTir
haslock at zso.dec.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: a-mikem at ac.tandem.com (mckay_michael)
Subject: Re: Referance Help on Cards
Organization: Atalla Corporation - San Jose, CA.
Date: Tue, 28 Mar 1995 19:38:22 GMT
In article <3l54gs$7v3 at newsbf02.news.aol.com> lordstyx at aol.com (Lord Styx) writes:
>I am trying to find the origons of the card Deck. I have been told it came
>from the tarot deck, I would like to be able to find out can anyone steer
>me in the right direction. What books I might look in to find this
>information, I would like to find the first recored card deck, and it's use.
>Alaric Wolfgang Von Mellenthin
Basically, the first mention of cards in Europe are Dutch in 1371. Cards
started in Spain and Italy (many arguments about who was first). Although
card suits flucutated quite a bit during the early period, most of the
national suits were standardized within SCA period (note that many countries
have their own standard suits). The first mention of the Tarot deck dates
to the early 1400's. The idea of Trump cards (first used with the
dedicated cards as in the Tarot deck, later used for any card) seems to be
a European invention.
There are many conflicting stories on how cards came to Europe. The most
colorful is the "brought by Gypsies tail", but cards were well established by
the time Gypsies first appeared in Europe (late 1400's). Current thinking
(Michael Drummit, "Book of the Tarot") is that it came from Egypt. They have
found cards in Egyptian tombs (1200's) which are very similar to early
Italian and Spanish cards. Cards were in use by India and China for quite a
while before Europe (theory is they went to Egypt first).
I am still new to this subject, but have very much enjoyed "The Oxford
Book of Card Games" which has a wealth of medieval history and card game
descriptions.
Seaan McAy Caer Darth; Darkwood; Mists; West (Santa Cruz, CA)
From: brgarwood at aol.com (BRgarwood)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Period card games (was Great Dalmut)
Date: 18 Nov 1995 08:04:40 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
In article <48gcql$mu9 at blues.epas.utoronto.ca>,
sclark at blues.epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Carroll-Clark) writes:
> Perhaps we might discuss period card games? A number of them are
>a terrific lot of fun.
Last week we spent a whole Sunday learning to play "Troccas" (sp), which
is an ancient card game from France/Switzerland. The member who was
teaching us learned it on a trip to visit her relatives, who speack
Romanche (sp) if that tells you where it is.
Its played with a Tarot deck (I suppose any deck with 5 suits and 72
card would do), and works a lot like whist, except some suits count
backwards, and the Troccas suit (the cards with big pictures) are always
trump. The scoring is really obnoxious, I still havent figurred it out.
If anyone is interested i'll post a copy of the rules.
berwyn
From: david.razler at compudata.com (DAVID RAZLER)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period card games (was Gr
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 95 16:39:00 -0400
Organization: Compu-Data BBS -=- Turnersville, NJ -=- 609-232-1245
B>> Perhaps we might discuss period card games? A number of them
B>are >a terrific lot of fun.
B>Last week we spent a whole Sunday learning to play "Troccas" (sp),
B>which is an ancient card game from France/Switzerland. The member who
B>was teaching us learned it on a trip to visit her relatives, who
B>speack Romanche (sp) if that tells you where it is.
B> Its played with a Tarot deck (I suppose any deck with 5 suits and
B>72 card would do), and works a lot like whist, except some suits count
B>backwards, and the Troccas suit (the cards with big pictures) are
B>always trump. The scoring is really obnoxious, I still havent
B>figurred it out. If anyone is interested i'll post a copy of the
B>rules.
B>berwyn
B>
Check out CA #s 4 and 71. Also, The Fleet Hart, 2807 Jefferson Drive,
Alexandria, Va. 22303 has published a nice little 17-page pamphlet, that
is generally provided to purchasers of their large range of Tarot decks.
ALSO: If anyone IS looking for very playable plastic coated, slightly
out-of-period (designed 1824) Tarrock (54-card) or
Doppeldeutch/Jass/Clubbijass (33-card) decks, I have plenty, due to a
failure at merchantdom $9 for Tarrock $4.50 Doppeldeutch. I can
accurately date the cards because I have both the current decks and my
great-great-grandfather's, made by the same company. Designs are
identical, and based on eastern European designs going back into period.
Hopelessly Commercial,
Aleksandr the Traveller
[david.razler at compudata.com]
From: dpeters at panix.com (D. Peters)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period card games (was Great Dalmut)
Date: 21 Nov 1995 17:05:20 -0500
Organization: Panix
In article <tstuber-2011951114570001 at jmoffett.uoregon.edu>,
Trudi Stuber <tstuber at oregon.uoregon.edu> wrote:
>Does any one out there have the rules for a game known as "Hazzard?"
>If you do could you please e-mail me at: tstuber at oregon.uoregon.edu
>Thanks in advance
>Trudchen
Actually, Hazzard is a dice game, not a card game. I was going to type
out the rules, but they're rather long, so here's a couple bibliographic
cites:
Nelson, Walter. _Ye Merrie Gamester_ Available from Merchant
Adventurers Perss, 7341 Etiwanda Ave., Reseda CA 91335
Smith, Patrick J. _Period Pastimes_ (Compleat Anachronist #71)
Available from SCA Stock Clerk
Happy gaming!
D.Peters
From: leeu at celsiustech.se (Leif Euren)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period card games (was Great Dalmut)
Date: 21 Nov 1995 10:05:04 +0100
Organization: CelsiusTech AB
Berwyn wrote:
> "Troccas" ... played with a Tarot deck ... and the Troccas suit are
> always trump. The scoring is really obnoxious,
:
> If anyone is interested i'll post a copy of the rules.
This sounds exactly like "Tarocci", a game from 15 c Italy.
Please post the rules, and I'll get my copy of my Tarocci rules and
post the documentation.
--
Peder Klingrode | Leif Euren Stockholm, Sweden
Holmrike, Nordmark, Drachenwald | leeu at celsiustech.se
From: Randy Martens <randym at lvld.hp.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Period and OOP card games (was: Re: THE GREAT DALMUTI)
Date: 21 Nov 1995 19:02:22 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard
sclark at blues.epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Carroll-Clark) wrote:
>Greetings!
> I enjoy this game, as I posted earlier. But I agree with Arval--
>not at events. However, it's a lot of fun at the pub or other similar
>situations--(we "period police" do have lives outside the SCA, you know)--
>in a way, it's a lot like _Cathedral_--not at all period,
>but with a medieval ambiance to it. As such, it's at least better than
>MAGIC at events. But why sit around playing a modern card game with so
>many other period things to do?
> Perhaps we might discuss period card games? A number of them are
>a terrific lot of fun.
>
>Primero, anyone?
Another fine game with a mideval flavor, but *NOT* a period game, is
"Plague & Pestilence", a charming little card game with nice
period looking art, all about trying to get your town to survive
the black plague. Loads of fun, but like Dalmuti, only appropriate
in limited settings (in your tent at the war, in a quiet corner away
from the bustle of activity at a pub event).
I would vehemently object folk playing Magic (even though i play it
mundanely, and enjoy the game) at an event, because it is BLATANTLY
non period.
Is there a source for period card games? I have a very nice replica
peiod deck, and would like to learn some. Is Schafskopf a period game?
Yours in service to the Dream,
Lord Andreas Syndikus Drachenfreund von Ossenheim
From: dpeters at panix.com (D. Peters)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Is Euchre Period? (was Re: games)--LONGISH
Date: 21 Nov 1995 16:54:12 -0500
Organization: Panix
In article <199511160227.SAA10407 at lalaw.lib.ca.us>,
Pat Lammerts <pat at lalaw.lib.CA.US> wrote:
>Steven Rettig wrote:
>
>>I also directed it to those want something to play at a post revel besdes
>>UNO or Euchre.
>
>Last I heard, UNO and Euchre are not period games. (I could be
>wrong about Euchre. Cards are not my forte.)
Euchre is a descendant of Triomphe, a period French game. To quote the
_Compleat Anachronist_ (titled "How to While Away a Siege", or something
to that effect):
"Triomphe is a somewhat earlier (c. 1550?) card game, played with a
36-card pack which differs from our 52-card pack in that it lacks
twos, threes, fours, and fives. The Ace ranks between the Knave and
the Ten in this game. The game can be played by four people in
partnerships or by just two people against each other. Each player
receives five cards, dealt two to teach, then three to each; the trump
suit is the suit of the next card in the stock. Play is normal
trick-taking, with the players required to follow suit and to win the
trick, if able. A player or side winning the majority of the tricks
scores one point; two points for taking all five tricks. Game is
usually five points. If a player or side is not happy with their cards,
they can offer the point to the other side. In this case, that side
can either accept the point or refuse it. However, if they refuse,
they are obliged to win all five tricks or have two points scored
against them."
A few major differences between Triomphe and Euchre:
(1) Players cannot choose trump suit
(2) Players cannot go alone or defend alone
(3) Play is only to five points, not ten
It appears that the strategy in this game comes in knowing when it would
be to your advantage to offer the point to the other side. Some of my
friends and I have tried Triomphe; unfortunately, the majority opinion
was that it seemed rather tame, and we switched to Ruff-and-Honors, an
Elizabethan ancestor of Bridge, which is more challenging.
Other SCA sources for period card games include the Oak (the Atlantian A
& S newsletter), and Full Deck Imagery (the gentleman who makes the
replica Renaissance playing cards).
Playing at cards with one's friends or Bad Companions is a fine way to
achieve more of a period ambience at events. Try it and see!
Cheers,
D.Peters
From: brgarwood at aol.com (BRgarwood)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period card games (LONG)
Date: 23 Nov 1995 07:10:14 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
OK, due to many requests, here are the rules for playing Troccas. This is
a long one.
Rules to play Troccas
The cards
There are 78 cards: 4 different suits, 21 troccas and one fool
(le mat).
The Suits
The suits are: sword, cup, stick and rose. Each suit has 14
cards: 4 figures (king, queen, knight, servant [valet]) and 10
cards numbered from I-X. X is best in swords and sticks, and I is best
in cups and roses. Figures are the best in all suits from King high to
valet low.
Troccas
Troccas cards are numbered XXI to I. XXI is the best. Troccas
cards beat all of the suits. Think trump.
The Fool (le mat)
The fool is a neutral card. You can play it anytime. It beats
nothing. It also can not be beaten. If someone plays the fool as the
first card, the next player chooses the suit. If the point (trick) goes
to the other team the losing team takes a card (no points) from the played
pile and keeps the fool. The fool is place on face down on the played
pile. If one team takes all the tricks, the fool and the scart also go to
the winning team. This rarely happens. (Think 'shoot the moon')
The Honors.
All cards with a value of 5 points are called Honors. The kings,
the fool (le mat), the XXI (le monde), and the I (le bateleur).
To begin the game.
To play you need four people. Somebody shuffles the cards, his
neighbor at the left cuts the deck. The shuffler lays the card from the
top in the middle of the table. Then every player takes one card,
beginning with the player on the shuffler's right. The players take a
card until everybody gets a trocca. The 2 players with the highest
troccas are a team and the 2 players with the lowest troccas are a team.
Dealing the cards.
The player who had the lowest trocca is the first "scartist". He
has to deal the cards for the first hand. He shuffles, the neighbor on
his left cuts the cards. The scartist takes the pile and deals, beginning
with the neighbor on his right. Everybody gets 6 cards, then 6 more, and
finally 7 cards. The scartist always shows the 7th card to all the other
players. The scartist gets 9 cards at the end rather than 7. Three
players have 19 cards and the scartist (dealer) has 21.
Make the "Scart"
The scartist has 2 cards more than the others. He can lay down 2
cards: make the 'scart'. This can give him an advantage. The scartist
prefers to lay down cards of a suit, where he is' short'. That allows him
to beat the king or queen of the other team with a Trocca. If he isn't
able to eliminate a suit, he lays down figures of a suit in which he has
lots of cards. The scartist puts the two cards in from of him on the
table, the other players should not see the cards in the scart. The
points in the scart are counted at the end of the hand with the other
points taken by the team. There are certain cards that can't be placed in
the scart.
Honors (kings, fool, XXI and I)
Playing
The player to the right of the scartist begins. He puts one card
on the table. Followed by the player on his right. The players must play
the same suit if possible. If they can't play in suit then they must play
Trocca. If they have neither suit nor Trocca, they can then play any
suit they choose. When four cards have been played the team playing the
highest card then takes that trick and places it in a pile in front of one
of the team members.
Troccas beats every suit and the face cards. Between the troccas the
higher numbers always beat the lower. Watch the I, it is worth 5 points.
The king is the highest card in every suit, the queen, the knight, the
valet and for swords and sticks the X, but for roses and cups the I are
the next highest cards.
If a suit is played for the first time and the king is also played he can
call the valet to him. The player who has the valet must play him and
take the next highest card of that suit to his hand, Not a face card or
Troccas.
When all the cards have been
From: justin at dsd.camb.inmet.COM (Mark Waks)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Card Games
Date: 28 Nov 1995 16:27:32 -0500
Organization: The Internet
Andreas writes:
>Another fine game with a mideval flavor, but *NOT* a period game, is
>"Plague & Pestilence", a charming little card game with nice
>period looking art, all about trying to get your town to survive
>the black plague...
>
>I would vehemently object folk playing Magic (even though i play it
>mundanely, and enjoy the game) at an event, because it is BLATANTLY
>non period.
I will ask one interesting question: why the one and not the other?
I'm afraid I'm a little dubious about the sound of P&P as well, and
indeed most games based on specialized decks and themes like this.
(Some games of this vague flavor probably existed in period, but
everything I've seen indicates that the period games *mostly* tended
to use pretty conventional decks, and rules we wouldn't find overly
novel.)
Just a point about authenticity in general -- it takes a lot of
practice to figure out what *really* is period in flavor and what
isn't, in any art. That's why I recommend sticking with the
documentable stuff for a while, to start developing those
intuitions...
Anyway --
>Is there a source for period card games? I have a very nice replica
>peiod deck, and would like to learn some.
Yes, lots. If you have Web access, check out the Period Games Home
Page:
http://www.inmet.com/~justin/game-hist.html
This has several bibliographies on period games, and rules to a few.
(The page is new, but growing fast.) It also has links to the Card
Games pages, which have some useful information on period...
Best single source I know for period card games specifically is Earl
Dafydd's little booklet on the subject, but I have no idea if this is
generally available. (I have a copy because he handed me one several
years ago.) Anyone know if that can be obtained? (Dafydd, are you out
there?) It's a little light on the documentation (he gives references
to his sources, but few reconstruction details), but it's a *very* good
starting point, with generally clear rules for a whole lot of games...
-- Justin
From: jeffs at bu.edu (Jeff Suzuki)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: The "Evils" of Pennsic
Date: 29 Jun 1996 21:35:31 GMT
Organization: Boston University
Gretchen M Beck (grm+ at andrew.cmu.edu) wrote:
: Excerpts from netnews.rec.org.sca: 20-Jun-96 Re: The "Evils" of Pennsic
: by David M. Razler at postoffi
: > Craps and poker are not period!
: Poker ain't, but craps is. There's medieval treatises on the playing of
: a game whose rules are almost identical to craps.
There's a period "poker" game, too: primero. There are many
similarities. Oddly enough, I know of a web page that gives rather
detailed rules, at:
http://math.bu.edu/INDIVIDUAL/jeffs/index.html
Jeffs
From: justin at harp.camb.inmet.COM (Mark Waks)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Card Games, and the 14th century
Date: 9 Sep 1996 13:17:29 -0400
Organization: The Internet
Edwin Hewitt quotes from the History of Everyday Things:
> "In the fourteenth century we hear of cards being played,
A caution here -- if one cares about the 14th century specifically,
the year really does matter here. In the first half of the 14th
century, there are no solid references to playing cards; indeed, they
are conspicuous in their absence. (Edicts banning gaming, sermons
against it, and things like that do *not* mention cards at this
point.) The first good references to cards pop up in (as I recall)
1377, in several locations around Europe, and come fast and thick
thereafter. (Almost every sermon and edict *does* mention cards from
that point on.)
While not conclusive, the evidence is *very* strong that playing cards
hit Europe in the 1370's, and spread like wildfire after that. By the
*end* of the 14th century, card games appear to be pretty common, and
the various national decks were developing solidly. (Although it's
worth noting that what Americans usually think of as the "modern" deck
-- the French-suited 52-card one -- is actually one of the oldest
forms...)
All of the above is drawn from memory of Michael Dummett's mammoth and
invaluable book, The Game of Tarot, which draws together essentially
all of the known threads about the early history of cards so that he
can talk about what was similar and different about the Tarot deck.
Incredibly hard to buy (I've had a book search out for a year now, and
only have a temporary copy because Seaan McAy photocopied his for me),
but worth the search -- it's an extremely careful and thorough look at
the history of cards in general and Tarot in specific, giving pretty
much all the known rules to games played with the Tarot deck, as well
as the detailed history of Tarot divination (which, I'm afraid, *will*
annoy some soothsayers).
-- Justin
Slowly working his way through the book;
it's 600 pages of fairly small type...
From: poch at sicorp.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: The Card Game Called Poch
Date: 10 Nov 1996 14:04:28 GMT
Organization: SSNet -- Public Internet Access in Delaware!
Poch : pre - 1527 Card Game
1. 32 card deck - Ace, King, Queen, Jack, 10, 9, 8, and 7 of all
four suits.
2. Each of four players receives eight cards face down.
3. Before looking at their hand, each player puts a chip in each
of eight pockets pockets ( hole or area on board usually marked with
the combination it is for).
PHASE ONE
4. The dealer looks at the last card he delt himself, and names it trumps.
5. If a player has the value in trumps of any of the card combinations
( 7-8-9, 10, Jack, Queen, King, King and Queen, Ace ), he claims the
chips in that pocket. Unclaimed pockets remain for the next hand.
PHASE TWO
6. The player, to the left of dealer, bids one or more chips into the
poch pocket. Any plyer staying in this phase must match the bid.
After the other players have bid or passed, the first bidder amd only
the first bidder may raise the stakes, but just once. Each player
then lays out his best combination (pairs, threes, or four of kind).
If players have same number of cards in combination, the Aces beats Kings,
Kings beats Queens, etc. If best combination is a pair of same value,
The one with trupms wins.) Winner takes the eighth pocket called
the Poch Pocket.
7. All players take back their cards.
PHASE THREE
8. The winner of the Poch stakes lays a card on the table.
9. Any player (there is no order) follows with the next
higher card of the same suit, untill the ace of the suit
or a stop card is played. The player of a stop carp may then lead
with any card he wishes.
10. The first player to lay down all his cards receives one chip for
each card left in your hand.
11. The deal passes to the left.
NOTES GAINED FROM HOURS OF PLAY:
A. Good players can regularly stick people with all eight cards still in
their hands.
B. If you play with other than four players, the cards left over from a
coplete turn around the board are left face up in the middle of the board
after the stakes are taken.
C. If you play a 6 of diamonds, the 5 of diamonds is now a stop card if it
has not been played.
D. I have played for hours and the 7-8-9 had to be borrowed from in friendly
games.
E. The King-Quenn pocket is called the Marriage.
F. The Pockets are usually in the order 10, Jack, Queen, King, Ace, Marriage,
7-8-9, and Poch.
G. Serious games are usally plaed for a set number of hands, period of time,
until one person is left, or any decession you want.
H. In friendly games, people may set in for others.
I. If it is your turn and you have
HEARTS - KING
SPADES - ACE, KING
DIAMONDS - ACE, KING, JACK, 10
CLUBS - SEVEN
and the Ace of Hearts has been played,
you could allow only the Queen of Diamonds to be played before you
claim the POCH, unless the last card in someone's hand is that Queen.
Badly playedi<the seven>, you could have seven cards left in your hand
and you would have to pay out seven chips.
recommended play
King of hearts, King and Ace of spades,Ace of Diamonds
Ace of Diamonds, and then 10 and jack of diamonds
at this point you hold
DIAMONDS - KING
SPADES - SEVEN
and the King is a stop card.
Re-entry into your own hand is sometines important.
J. When introducing this game to new people, play two or three hands with
everybody's cards face up and explain things to everybody. Best to
play the cards infront of the players rather than in a pile.
Just push forward the card. Sorta like tournament bridge play.
If you have any questions feel free to ask me questions at
Wilho N. Suominen Jr.
a.K.a. William the FInn, K.S.C.A.
POCH at SICORP.COM
.
From: Dale Niederhauser <konrad at mail.gte.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: The Card Game Called Poch
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 16:04:56 -0500
Organization: BGSU
Poch was played with a board with eight depressions "pokets" for holding
the coin. Each deptession was labeled with what it was for:
7-8-9,10,Jack,Queen,King,Marriage,Ace.
Use anything you want for the board, circles drawn on paper, 8 cups,
etc. until you make a board.
The chips are whatever token your playing with: poker chips, pennies,
pretzels. They represent the coin you'd be gambling away. Poch was
played as both a family game with tokens and a gambling game with coins.
It was a German game and would have been played with German suited cards
leaves,hearts,bells,acorns. Also German decks did not have Aces. The
two was used as the Ace is used in the rules posted. This was called
the Sau because pigs were commly drawn on the two of each suit.
Hope this helps,
Herr Konrad Mailander
Barony of Red Spears
Middle Kingdom
From: Dale Niederhauser <konrad at mail.gte.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: The Card Game Called Poch
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 12:38:27 -0500
Organization: BGSU
Greetings,
Poch is a German game and is way pre 1527. In "A History of Card
Games" David Parlett says it is fist recorded at Strasburg in 1441. He
also mentions a French game Glic which was virtually identical mentioned
in 1454 and 1461. It dyed out but Poch remained popular and has spawned
several other variations. I think 1527 is the date of the oldest
surviving Board.
"A History of Card Games" by David Parlett (Origionally titled Oxford
Guide to Card Games in Hardback) is the best sorce I've found with at
least 9 games from period. The Hardback version has a color photo
section not in the paperback which includes a good picture of a Poch
board.
Ich poche eins,
Herr Konrad Mailander
Barony of Red Spears/Midrealm
From: david.razler at postoffice.worldnet.att.net (David M. Razler)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Poch/ more games/rules and card availability
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 18:34:55 GMT
poch at sicorp.com (William the Finn) wrote:
| Poch : pre - 1527 Card Game
|
| 1. 32 card deck - Ace, King, Queen, Jack, 10, 9, 8, and 7 of all
| four suits.
| 2. Each of four players receives eight cards face down.
| 3. Before looking at their hand, each player puts a chip in each
| of eight pockets pockets ( hole or area on board usually marked with
| the combination it is for).
Thanks for the rules. FYI the "traditional" 32-card deck probably originally
used to play the game was (depending on where/when) the German-suited 32+1
card deck with the suites of hearts, bells, leaves and acorns. The current
"French" suits of hearts, clubs, diamonds and spades *appear* to be slightly
newer, though, post-period, they tended to replace the German and
Italian/Spanish suits of cups, clubs, coins <"penticle" is a Victorianism at
best> and swords.
The German deck denies a place to women: the face cards are king, ober and
unter.
For further information, try http://www.netlink.co.uk/pagat, the world card
game rules page, reachable from www.sca.org - arts and sciences subpage.
The oldest doc'able and playable 33-card German deck in current production
that I *know* *of* is the Piatnik #1808 Doppeldeutch, the designs dating to
1827 when Piatnik & Sohne started printing them (I inherited an original),
though the designs themselves are *somewhat* older. Longship Trading Co.
<Steve Pano> Box 4004, Shrewsbury, Ma. 01545 bought out my stock of new-issue
Piatnik decks and 54-card #1936 French-suited Tarrock decks bearing designs of
similar age. The cards are also available directly from Piatnick of America,
but the company's high prices on single-deck orders and poor business
practices <Comment on a shipment paid UP FRONT which was due for Pennsic 22
but never arrived: "yes, we have them in stock - but sometimes we run out."
This was followed by a series of collection notices and claims I never paid
'em, which could not be stopped.> lead me to strongly advise against it. Then
again, I usually prefer doing buisness with Steve and other member/merchants.
David M. Razler
david.razler at worldnet.att.net
From: david.razler at worldnet.att.net
To: Mark S. Harris
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:42:14 GMT
Subject: Re: Poch/ name that card!
On , markh at risc.sps.mot.com (Mark S. Harris) wrote:
| > The German deck denies a place to women: the face cards are king, ober and
| > unter.
|
| What is an "ober" and an "unter"? I've not had time to do much game research.
Ober(man) and Unter(man) lit. over-man and under-man, a better translation is
king's #1 guy and #2 guy. The titles are variously translated as knight and
valet, knight and jack, knight and knave, and in the 1892 "Old and Curious
Playing Cards" by H.T.Morley, <p 20>"Chief officer and .. Subaltern," I kid
you not.
When dealing with a French <aka American> deck, just read Ober for Queen,
Unter for Jack.
The variation on the themes in playing cards is fairly large, ranging from the
Spanish decks of 40 or 48 with no face cards, just numbers, to the standard
tarot decks of 56 lower suit cards of 4X1-10, knave (jack), knight
(chevalier), queen, king + the trump suit up to decks of which the only
example I know is the "Cary-Yale" Visconti-Sforza family deck which included
male and female knaves and knights for a total of six face cards + 1-10 of
four tarot suits + the trump suit for a total of 86 cards.
The exact titles of the face cards as used by the locals playing vary widely,
and not just with the language - in several countries, folks will play one
game with German cards, another with French. Switzerland is apparently a mess,
at least according to the regional games and cards list available from the
UK-based playing card web page reachable from www.sca.org / arts and sciences
dmr/A,T
David M. Razler
david.razler at worldnet.att.net
From: Dale Niederhauser <konrad at mail.gte.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Poch/ more games/rules and card availability
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 16:22:01 -0500
Organization: BGSU
David M. Razler wrote:
>The German deck denies a place to women: the face cards are king, ober and
>unter.
Most German decks have the courts as Koening(King),Obermann(Overknave) =
to Queen, and Untermann(underknave)= to Jack. The under and over refers
to the positioning of the suitmark: On the Ober it was over the shoulder
of the Knave and on the Unter it was down next to the feet.
There were German decks with Queens, but they replaced the Kings and the
Ober and Unter were maids instead of knaves in these decks. I remember
one source saying that Germans were one the first to use Female courts,
Just the all male courts were wider used. Unfortunately I forget the
source.
Now a days things are more standardized, but in period they were not.
Although the national suitmarks were established early for German,
Swiss, Italian, Spanish. Decks with other suits were common, usually
there was a theme to the suits. In period cardmakers were respected
artists. From the artists point of view it was numerous canvases to
display you work.
Herr Konrad Mailander
Barony of Red Spears/Midrealm
From: poch at sicorp.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: The Card Game Called Poch
Date: 22 Nov 1996 21:23:37 GMT
Organization: SSNet -- Public Internet Access in Delaware!
The source that I used is
Games of the World, Edited by Fredric V. Grunfeld
Introduction by R.C.Bell
Ballantine Books 1975
First Ballantine Books Edition: September 1977
Pages 117,124-5,(CP)125-126,141
16th Century Europe
Poch from pochen in turn from bochen <medival high german>
"I defy you"
or
"I stay in the game"
Earliest reference (1558) in the works of Nuremberg
Miestersinger, Hans Sachs
The Oldest Poch Board in the Bavarian National Museum is dated 1527
P.S. I have since heard of two other references.
P.P.S. I have heard an illusion to a reference from 1441.
P.P.P.S. If anyone is interested, I might put up a page with pictures
and detailed instructions from Games of the World.
From: wmclean290 at aol.com (WMclean290)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Card Games, and the 14th century
Date: 10 Sep 1996 04:53:02 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
justin at harp.camb.inmet.COM (Mark Waks) writes:
>(Although it's
>worth noting that what Americans usually think of as the "modern" deck
>-- the French-suited 52-card one -- is actually one of the oldest
>forms...)
This needs to be qualified. One of the earliest references does describe a
deck with ten numbered and three face cards in each suite. But it does not
describe the suits, and as far as I know there is no firm evidence for the
"French" suite signs of Hearts, Clubs, Diamonds, and Spades before the
1480s or so.
Galleron
From: rhayes at powerup.com.au (Robin Hayes)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Card Games, and the 14th century
Date: 17 Sep 1996 08:03:28 GMT
In article <9609091715.AA24655 at dsd.camb.inmet.com>, of 9 Sep 1996 13:17:29
-0400, Mark Waks of justin at harp.camb.inmet.COM says...
>
>Edwin Hewitt quotes from the History of Everyday Things:
>
>> "In the fourteenth century we hear of cards being played,
<SNIP>
>All of the above is drawn from memory of Michael Dummett's mammoth and
>invaluable book, The Game of Tarot, which draws together essentially
<SNIP>
Another useful book is
Fun and Games in Old Europe
W. Endrei & L. Zolnay
(A translation of an Hungarian original)
Budapest 1986 - Corvina
1988 ISBN 963 13 2386 2
(Flyleaf says - orders to Kultura Budapest 62
P.O.B. 149 H-1389)
A considerable emphasis on medieval things, pictures, etc. Cards are but a
small section...
P 49..
"Actual facts- the first berne prohibition (1367) and then the first
references in Basel (1377), St Gall (1379), Nuremberg (1380), Flanders and
Burgundy (1382) - confirm that between approx 1370 & 1400 card playing was
a rapidly spreading popular game and not simply pastime for the gentry."
and the card section continues up to P64 with many pictures from period
sources.
You may find this of interest, if you can track it down. I got mine from a
disposal source.
Robin
[submitted by Magnus <magnusm at ncsu.edu>]
Subject: Re: Period Card Decks Info needed
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:33:57 -0500 (EST)
From: David KUIJT <kuijt at umiacs.umd.edu>
To: Josh <dungeon at norfolk.infi.net>
CC: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org
On Wed, 6 Jan 1999, Josh wrote:
> I am looking for anyone who has experience with making decks in
> particular, who have or know how to make period "card decks", and/or
> taro decks, for I am seriously looking to make least one of each for
> personal use, and more if its not too tedious more if the demand is
> there. Thanks ahead of time!
I've written some articles on this stuff, and produced two different card
decks based upon period models. What do you want to know?
As for tarot decks, they are period, and there are a fairly large number
of commercial reproductions of period and period-like tarot decks
available. However, one note -- tarot decks were used for playing card
games in period, not for any occult or cartomantic use. There is no
evidence for cartomancy (telling the future with cards) before the 1780s,
and the modern "Tarot" phenomenon has its roots in the late 19th century
occultists.
Dafydd
[submitted by Magnus <magnusm at ncsu.edu>]
Subject: Playing Cards
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 14:38:16 -0500
From: "M. Stewart" <ms154 at cornell.edu>
To: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org
Well I am not Dafydd or Eogan - but I do know a bit on this subject...
The Cloisters has several examples of 1450 playing cards, German in
origin.
The cards are made of paste board and painted with tempera and ink.
The drawings were simple, but colorful.
The deck I saw contained 4 suits: hobbles, collars, nooses and horns.
The scenes were based on a hunting theme.
The various numerical values of the cards were simply represented by the
number of the item from the suit. ie. a three of nooses had three nooses
drawn on the front of the card.
Noble cards were present: there were three in each suit, I can't
swear what the three were. I think either Lady/Knight/Page or
Queen/King/Jack
The reverse side of the card was plain with only a narrow painted border.
That's about as much as I can convey without having my picture of
the cards in front of me.
Bridgette Kelly MacLean
The MacLean of Atlantia
(mka Mari Stewart
Ithaca, NY)
ms154 at cornell.edu)
Subject: Re: Period Card Decks Info needed(very long!)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 23:08:02 -0500 (EST)
From: Josh <dungeon at norfolk.infi.net>
To: David KUIJT <kuijt at umiacs.umd.edu>, atlantia at atlantia.sca.org
>> I am planning on playing an early french trick game with it.
>
>Which one?
I am releasing this over the merry rose since a few gentles have shown a
interest in learning a Tarot game who are on the Rose. If any one has a more
documentable Tarot game I would love to get a copy of it. To those who do
not have an interest I appologize for the wasted bandwidth. Any questions on
the material should be directed privately to me. This is hand typed and
therefore abridged in a few areas were the material in the originial was not
fundamental to playing the game or its backround. The abridged areas are
labelled accordingly. Anyone who would like a copy of the originial email me
privately with address info(Us Mail only please).
Tristan ap Elwin
Marinusian Gamester not to be confused with
the Gamemaster of Marinus Lord Celric who is
an honorary marinusian.
Game Report: Early French Tarot
Class: Cards
Type: Trick tacking
Number of Players: four to six( four being the best)
Date radacted: May 13, 1997
Redactor: Justin du Coeur
Sources: Micheal Dummetts The Game of Tarot, London: Duckworth, 1980. This
game is mostly Dummett's "Seventeenth-Century French Tarot(second version)"
, combined with a few elements from the first version to fill out the game
(pg. 215). Dummett's reconstruction is based mostly on La Maaison academique
des jeux, 1659.
Reconstuction:
The Tarot deck reaches back well into period; while its exact origions are a
bit unclear, it appears to have come into bveing not too many decades after
the more "conventional" decks did in the latter half of the 14th century.
All the available evidence indicates that tarot was used more less
exclusively for card games during the Renassance; the Tarot's occult
associations appear to have arisen later, in the 18 century. For a detailed
examination of what is known about the occult history of the Tarot, the
inestersted reader is referred to The Game of Tarot, which spends a couple
of chapters on the subject. This dicussion will concern itself solely with a
period game played with the deck.
This particular Tarot variant is a fairley simple one, with most of the
principal elements common to Tarot games and little else. The sources that
this desciption comes from are slightly out of perod; I suspect that this
iwas probably known in period( we know that Tarot Games were commen enough
in period, and this is a fairly elemental version), but the pirist should
get Dummetts book and judge for themselves.
Equipment
Abridged from originial since I am typing this from a hard copy and most of
the information is redudent to those who are familar with Tarot. 78 card
deck (wands swords coins and cups ace through ten, king queen knight page
for each suit fourteen for each suit = 56 plus 22 major arcana.
Play ( Abrigded because of space)
1. 12 cards are dealt to each person.
2. The person to the left of dealer lays the first card and everyone lays a
card going in counter clockwise order. After everyone lays a card the player
with the highest card of the same suit as the first card or highest trump
wins. (A person can not lay a trump if he has a card of the same suit and
may not use a different suit if he has the suit being played. The fool is
however removed from this stricture) Card value is in the following order
Ace 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Page knight Queen King Trump(Major Arcana) value is
decided by the number of the card. Therefore the the Hermit (10) would beat
the emperor (5) and the Lovers (7) would be defeated by the Devil (16). The
fool never wins any hands but has a special ability. The fool can be played
at any time even when the player can follow suit. The person who plays the
fool automatically loses the trick but keeps the fool as if it was a won
trick. The rest of the Trick is handed over to the winning player. The
player who played the fool has to latter decide at the end of the hand (or
before) on a card to give to the person who won the hand he played the fool
in. If the player of the fool did not win a trick the player who won the
hand he played the fool in gets the fool. So the only way to lose the fool
is to not win a single trick. Since the fool is worth the most points one
would be a fool indeed to give it otherwise.
3. the game plays in a similar fashion to hearts and spades. So anyone who
is confused with the above explanation of a Trick should refer to hearts or
Spades. Anyone who still has questions can email me.
4. After the 12 tricks are played then count the cards as follows:
a. Count the number of cards you have won all together. If you exceed 12
cards in this count you get one point per card of excess. For every card
your missing to reach the total of 12 take away one point. After you get
that total of loss points or gain point look for the following cards and
score them accordingly:
The Fool: 5 points
The World(Trump 21): 4 points
Magician(Trump 1): 4 points
each King: 4 points
each Queen: 3 points
each Knight: 2 points
each Page: 1 points
The other cards do not garner points for individual cards but can be used
for the card total point award above.
The game is played to 50 points. Though it is possible to exceed 50 points
simotaneously with other people. The way to handle this should be decided
upon before game play commences.
Summary:
The order of play is:
* Deal 12 cards to each player
* Play 12 tricks in a hand: you must follow suit if possible, and if not
possible, you must play trump if possible. Therefore if you cannot follow
suit you must play a trump, and if that is not possible you can play another
suit. (Of course if you play another suit you cannot win the trick)
*The Fool serves as the Excuse; it cannot win a trick, but the player who
playued the Fool immediately takes it back and replaces it with another card
>from his winnings. He only need to surrender the Fool if he never win any
other card to replace it with in that hand. Lose one point for each card
under 12 you end up with; gain one point for each card over 12. Add the
value of the scoring cards.
The game is played to 50 points.
Opinional Rules for Gambling Purposes(written by Tristan Ap Elwin and
dedicated to Rabah's Caravan hope you find use for it Rabah:) All of these
rules, some, or non can be used without majorley changing the playability of
the game. These rules are no way researched as a period form of gambling and
may entirely be unperiod in nature. Though commen sense would dictate some
form of gambling is possible with this game, and these rules are reasonable
in that fashion. These rules add a whole new dimension to the game.
Opitional Rule 1: A pot is exstablished at the beggining of the game. The
amount each player must bid should be discussed or may even be handled like
in poker. The player who gets to 50 wins the pot.
Optional Rule 2a:Each trick every player bids x amount of coins. The person
who wins the trick doubles his bid from the house. Everyone elses bid goes
to the house.
Optional Rule 2b: A player may place a bid at the beginning of any trick
before any cards are played. Any bid of a losing player on the table after
the trick is lost goes to the house. Any winning bid can ride to the next
trick. Any winning bid can be cashed in between any two tricks. Use the
chart below for cash in values:
1 winning trick double the bid
2 winning tricks triple the bid
3 winning tricks x4 times the bid
and so on......
I hope everyone who read this will least play a few hands. Its lots of fun.
Tristan ap Elwin
[Submitted by: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu>]
Subject: Re: Playing Cards (fwd)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 11:09:38 -0500 (EST)
From: David KUIJT <kuijt at umiacs.umd.edu>
To: Atlantia Mailing List <atlantia at atlantia.sca.org>
Kathryn Rous wrote:
> The decks were not intended to be played with? Please tell me more
> about this!
>
> (oh, I just realized this is not going to the list as well...maybe your
> answer should, though?)
All the decks mentioned are stunning and expensive works of art, hand-made
by the most adept artists a wealthy patron could command. They show no
signs of ever having been used for card games. Some of them (the playing
cards of Master E.S., for example) are printed on paper too thin to stand
the rigours of play. The Visconti-Sforza and Cary-Yale Visconti decks
were painted in the shop, and partly by the hand, of Bonifacio Bembo, one
of the premier painters of his day. Although the artisans who painted the
Hunting deck and Hofamterspiel aren't known, they were clearly adept.
I believe that some of the bills for production of one of the Bembo decks
survive; there are also bills for production of similar decks including
one for Charles VI of France (the deck does not survive).
Although translation of expense to modern terms is inexact, it is clear
that these were commissioned masterpieces and very expensive. One
measurement of comparison frequently used is the cost of a car being about
the same as a cost of a horse: by that measure, one of the decks of Bembo
cards might have cost its patron $300,000 or more; perhaps ten times as
much. If I get time, I'll try to find exact figures (the above quote is
>from my vague memory, and certainly shouldn't be considered infallible).
The reason that so many beautiful decks survive is exactly because they
were never used for playing. At an educated quess, millions of playing
card decks were produced a year during the 15th century. Something on the
order of a dozen decks survive in full or in part from the 15th century.
Almost all of the survivors are premier examples of fine artistry never
used for playing. In an era before plastic-coating of cards a deck
probably was tattered and stained after a single long evening's play.
The idea of playing a card game with such a deck is similar to the idea of
using a commissioned painting by a master painter as a tablecloth.
Dafydd
[Submitted by: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu>]
Subject: Re: Playing Cards
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:22:25 -0500 (EST)
From: David KUIJT <kuijt at umiacs.umd.edu>
To: "M. Stewart" <ms154 at cornell.edu>
CC: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org
Bridgette Kelly MacLean wrote describing the Hunting Deck in the
Cloisters;
I've got a few small corrections and additions to her note.
Two minor corrections: I believe that the Hunting deck is French in
origin, not German; further, I think it is dated to the later 15th century
(not as early as 1450).
Some additions: the Hunting deck, like the Hofamterspiel, Cary-Yale
Visconti, Visconti-Sforza, or the circular copper-point engraving deck by
Master E.S. of 1466, was never intended to be played with.
The later 15th century was a period of experimentation into alternative
suit-signs from the standard Italian/Spanish suit signs (Coins, Swords,
Batons, and Cups). The German, Swiss, and French suit systems arose in
the last half of the 15th century, as did a wide variety of suit signs
that did not gain general acceptance. The period of experimentation seems
to have mostly ended by the middle of the 16th century.
Dafydd
Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 20:05:22 -0400
From: rmhowe <MMagnusM at bellsouth.net>
To: stefan at texas.net
CC: Lynn Meyer <lmeyer at netbox.com>
Subject: Re: Blockprinting article
To your Blockprinting notes you can add the citation of this
Card book with the note that it depicts the process of making playing
cards from a Parisian print of 1690. A workshop of about twenty
men making cards is depicted.
Old and Curious Playing Cards by H.T. Morley, early 1900's, reprinted
by Wellfleet Press (who conveniently left out the earlier edition
information dammit! Post 1906. Printed in an earlier style.).
This edition Bracken Books 1989, ISBN 1555215041.
A single woodblock was used to print the background lines of all the
cards per suit. (Master Dafydd ap Gwystl, OL, OP, KSCA, Royal Peer,
has made one of these. He is in doctoral studies in Atlantia.)
It was also used to imprint stencil cards which were then laid on
the sheets from the original printing. Individual areas on the stencils
were cut out according to the color desired and the colors were applied
using large flat bottomed brushes with a round top about the size of a
palm and several inches high. Rather like a very dense shoe brush.
Magnus Malleus, OL
Windmasters' Hill, Atlantia,
Great Dark Horde
From: bronwynmgn at aol.comnospam (Bronwynmgn)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Date: 19 Nov 2000 15:01:26 GMT
Subject: Re: Period playing cards
"Steven Maynard" <s.maynard at bigpond.com> writes:
>Does anyone have any sites that has piccies of period playing
>cards (the earlier the better.) or any site with descriptions of what was on
>the cards?
Try this one - I know they have info on and sell sets of period playing cards.
Brangwayna Morgan
From: Chas <charles at historicgames.com>
Organization: ‡
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period playing cards
Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000 19:00:41 GMT
Morgan Wolf wrote:
> For what it's worth, remember that Tarot cards were originally playing
> cards, since "fortune telling" would have gotten the teller burned. I used
> a deck of Tarot cards as playing cards, basically playing Hearts with LOTS
> of trumps (higher # high arcana cards trumping lower # high arcana) at a
> couple of events a few years ago, got LOTS of people telling me that "the
> cards don't like that", and "you're really meesing up their energy, you'll
> never get a good reading now" and so on. Imagine their various reactions
> when I pointed out that my use of the cards was period, and theirs was a
> death sentence.
It's strange, that for some reason tarot games (which have been around since
the 1400's) have never really caught on in English-speaking countries, so most
Americans are often only familiar with them as fortune telling tools.
A subject of debate between modern tarot readers and game historians is how
early tarots were used for cartomancy (fortunetelling with cards). There are
records in Italian witch trials of the "devil" tarot card used by accused
witches, but according to the game historians there's no good evidence for the
theory that the card games were used to camouflage fortunetelling.
According to David Parlett in his "Oxford Guide to Card Games" the earliest
reliable documentation for cartomancy is in the late 1700's and appears about
the same time that solitaire/patience card games started becoming popular. He
seems to suggest that some of the early solitaire card games were used as
novelty fortunetelling games ("he-loves-me, he-loves-me-not" kind of things)
which may have evolved into the more elaborate cartomancy practices we know today.
If I were to go for a master's degree I've thought it would be interesting to
do an in-depth study of the art and symbolism used on tarot cards. -If-
cartomancy didn't begin until the late 1700's, one might expect an increase or
change in some of the magical/mystical symbols being used in the tarot cards
designed after that time.
A site for more information on the history of cards and this debate, as well
as some images of early cards is at International Playing-Card Society
Chas
--
MacGregor Games
Purveyors of historic pastimes to re-enactors around the world
Historic Merchants' E-list
http://www.historicgames.com/histmerch.html
From: Dmckeon at swcp.com (Denis McKeon)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period playing cards
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 09:47:29 -0800
In <ddfr-28E374.08483720112000 at nntp1.ba.best.com> David Friedman wrote:
>In article <8vb9jl$8ht$1 at nnrp1.deja.com>, trevor_barker at my-deja.com
>wrote:
>> In France, Tarot is a popular game similar to Whist. (The aim is to
>> capture tricks, especially ones that include trumps and noble cards.)
>
>But the deck they use for that is not the same as the tarot deck used
>for fortune telling. As best I recall, the suits are swords, wands,
>cups, and coins but the greater arcana aren't included.
There are certainly different forms of the game of Tarots, but those I
have seen played in Brittany did use the greater arcana - I recall that
the Fool had some special significance either in play as a super-trump
or in counting tricks or points. Details are at:
http://www.pagat.com/tarot/frtarot.html
The deck usually used for the game is a fairly classic Tarot deck, known
as the "Marseilles" deck, and can be found in stores in France along
with playing cards intended for other games such as bridge (decks sold
in pairs), and the usual single decks as used in the USA for poker.
One could use the Marseilles deck for cartomancy, or any of the
several hundred currently available Tarot decks.
The game of Tarots as I have seen it played is fairly complex - imagine
the bidding and implicit signaling of bridge crossed with the rule
complexity of the variation of 7-card stud poker called Hi-Low Chicago.
During and after the bidding phase, various players combine into groups
(usually of 2 and 3, IIRC), making it a very social game.
For a different variation on the Tarot, examine the "Five of Cubicles"
in the Silicon Valley Tarot, at:
Bennet
--
Denis McKeon
From: "Chris CII" <Chris_CII at CompuServe.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period playing cards
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 19:22:42 +0100
Organization: Wanadoo, l'internet avec France Telecom
"David Friedman" <ddfr at best.com> wrote:
> trevor_barker at my-deja.com wrote:
> > In France, Tarot is a popular game similar to Whist. (The aim is to
> > capture tricks, especially ones that include trumps and noble cards.)
>
> But the deck they use for that is not the same as the tarot deck used
> for fortune telling. As best I recall, the suits are swords, wands,
> cups, and coins but the greater arcana aren't included.
> --
> David/Cariadoc
> http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Medieval/Medieval.html
The french Tarot can be played with many kinds of decks.
The only requisite is to have 4 suits of 14 cards :
Numbers from 1 to 10 and Jack, Knight, Queen, King
And one suit of 22 cards :
One unnumbered and 21 numbered from 1 to 21.
Mostly you see modern tarot games with "standard" suits club heart spade
diamond, and trumps just numbered.
and "Marseille" tarot games with club coin sword cup and the 21 trumps
having names as well. Immediately I recall 12 the hanging man 13 Death 14
Temperance 15 Devil 20 Jugement 21 The World.
If anyone wants more info I can gladly expound or even show a few scans of
"Marseille" decks.
--
Salutations, Greetings,
Guiraud Belissen, Drachenwald,
Chris CII, Rennes, France
From: David Razler <david.razler at worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period playing cards
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 22:51:53 GMT
On Mon, 20 Nov 2000 08:48:37 -0800, David Friedman <ddfr at best.com>
wrote:
> trevor_barker at my-deja.com wrote:
>> In France, Tarot is a popular game similar to Whist. (The aim is to
>> capture tricks, especially ones that include trumps and noble cards.)
>
>But the deck they use for that is not the same as the tarot deck used
>for fortune telling. As best I recall, the suits are swords, wands,
>cups, and coins but the greater arcana aren't included.
Actually, the reverse! The official deck of the French Tarot
associations uses the "French" suits of club-diamond-heart-spade + the
"major arcana" although the trump suit may not bear the symbols and
names that have become standard in most Tarrochi decks.
The German Tarrok decks combine a "short deck" similar to the
32/33-card jass/clubyash deck with trump cards bearing only roman
numerals for a total of 54 cards - the suits can be either French or
Italian (swords/wands/cups/coins) or German season suits (leaves,
hearts, acorns, bells).
The tarot deck "used for fortunetelling" was originally designed as a
deck for playing games, with several styles of "major arcana" that
became "standardized" for fortunetelling when those seeking to
separate the gullable from their cash found a new method of divination
they could insist was ancient and functional.
Interestingly, the 33 card Germanic short deck (32 cards + a
joker/super-trump called a welli) was adopted for divination. Piatnik,
the premier Hungarian card-maker (now HQ'd in the former West Germany)
sells several divination deck versions of the short deck.
Longship Trading had some of these post-period designs
For the best info, check out The Playing Card Rules Pages at (old
address) http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/pagat/ for games new, old and
period, and links for obtaining cards of all kinds.
d/A
From: David Razler <david.razler at worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period playing cards
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 21:01:21 GMT
On Tue, 21 Nov 2000 11:08:52 -0800, David Friedman <ddfr at best.com>
wrote:
> "Chris CII" <Chris_CII at CompuServe.com> wrote:
>> "David Friedman" <ddfr at best.com> wrote in message
>> news:ddfr-7F2952.19264820112000 at nntp1.ba.best.com...
>> > It sounds as though my memory (of what I had observed travelling in
>> > Europe a good many years ago) was mistaken. Either that or there are
>> > both decks with and decks without the major aracana, and I happened to
>> > observe the later.
>> > --
>> > David/Cariadoc
>> > http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Medieval/Medieval.html
>>
>> The standard french Tarot deck has 78 cards 4 suits of 14 cards and a suit
>> of 22 cards which corrsponds to the major arcana but is not recognisable as
>> such because it has cards only numbered and without any name or image.
>>
>> In parallel there also exists the "Marseille" Tarot deck, used more for
>> fortune-telling but quite suited for playing tarots, which has clearly
>> identifiable major arcana.
>>
>> There is another quite practiced game which is the "belote" played with a
>> standard 32 card game.
>>
>> And there are also a lot of 54 card games ( 4 suits of 13 cards) used in
>> a lot of games.
>
>Do some of them use cups, wands, coins and swords as the suits? I think
>that was what suggested tarot to me.
>
>Incidentally, 4 suits of 13 cards comes to 52--the standard deck here.
The following refers to a combination of modern and semi-period decks:
4 suits of 13 + 2 jokers (Clubs Diamonds Hearts Spades) is the
standard "French" deck.
4 suits of 14 <four court cards>or 56 (sometimes + 1 fool) is a deck
used in a few games ( French suits, (CDHS), very rarely Germanic
(Leaves Hearts Acorns Bells), more often Italian (Clubs/Staves
Coins<"penticle" is a 19th C invented name for this suit>, Cups,
Swords)
4 suites of 14 + 22 trumps (either the Roman-numbered trumps or one of
the kinds of figured allegorical trumps) is used to play Tarot.
The Germanic/Swiss Jass deck consists of 32 cards in 4 suits (roman
numerals 7-10, 3 court cards and an ace or season card) + a
supertrump/joker called a welli. (i.e. Piatnik #1808) The court cards
are usually figures out of the William Tell legend, and the language
changes depending on where the cards are produced. My at 100-year-old
Piatnik Hungarian deck bears almost the same designs as an
off-the-shelf 1808, though the older cards give the names in Magyar,
the new in Deutch.
The Germanic/Swiss Tarock deck (i.e. Piatnik #1936) consists of four
french suits, the red ace-4+4 court cards, the black 7-10+4 court
cards and 21 trumps bearing ruman numerals 1-21 and an un-numberd
fool.
<Note - while the French and Italian suits match 1::1 clubs/clubs -
diamonds/coins - hearts/cups - spades/swords in symbolism, the
Germanic symbology has to do with the seasons: leaves=fall,
hearts=spring, acorns=winter, bells=summer.>
In Switzerland, one of the Germanic suits, I believe hearts, is
replaced by flowers.
Spanish decks run 40 or 50 cards, with the Italian suits = in the 50
card deck, (i.e. Heraclio Fournier bar codes 0-73854-00020-5 and
...25-0 repectively) the cards are numbered 1-12, with the 10,11 and
12 depicting low male, higher female and crowned male respectively + 2
jokers. The 40-card deck consists of similar cards minus jokers, 8s
and 9s.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
In addition to the "standard" divinators Tarot of 4*14+22, there is
the Germanic divination deck of 32 (i.e. Piatnik 1901-1904 and 1944)
also sold as "Gypsy Fortune Telling Cards".
These vary considerably from the original Eastern European cartomancy
practices apparently involving the Jass deck.
The 1901 and 1904 Piatnik decks are suitless and each card bears a
name (fortune, letter, sweetheart, lover, house, fidelity, jelousy,
sadness .... illness, gift, journey). 1944, a reproduction of a deck
of apparently Victorian vintage, bears allegorical images, card
numbers (1-32) astrological images in sinister chief and cards
numbered for Jass (4 suits 7-10, 3 court cards and an ace using the
FRENCH suites!!).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MY BRAIN HURTS!
david/Aleksandr
From: Nils K Hammer <nh0g+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period playing cards
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 18:52:07 -0500
Organization: Csd Education - Phd, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
When master John took me to Italy a few years ago cards were one of my
primary things to look for. Folks have been asking me to do a woodcut tarot
deck one of these days. Modern italians play "tarocci" today, and don't
seem to have any idea of what our mystic association with them is.
The Visconti-Sforza deck is solidly period. There are some of its cards in
a museuum in Venice. You can by a very nice reproduction from USA games.
I have not yet learned which of the original cards were missing and replaced
by competant modern artists. The Marseille deck looks to me to be slightly
post-period.
None of the other decks I've seen compare with these two for SCA authenticity.
nils
From: "Chris CII" <Chris_CII at CompuServe.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period playing cards
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2000 20:06:21 +0100
Organization: Wanadoo, l'internet avec France Telecom
"David Friedman" <ddfr at best.com> wrote in message
news:ddfr-8E32AD.11085221112000 at nntp1.ba.best.com... quoting me :
> > The standard french Tarot deck has 78 cards 4 suits of 14 cards and a suit
> > of 22 cards which corrsponds to the major arcana but is not recognisable as
> > such because it has cards only numbered and without any name or image.
> >
> > In parallel there also exists the "Marseille" Tarot deck, used more for
> > fortune-telling but quite suited for playing tarots, which has clearly
> > identifiable major arcana.
>
> Do some of them use cups, wands, coins and swords as the suits? I think
> that was what suggested tarot to me.
Yes, the so-called "Marseille" tarot uses exactly these suits and has
labeled and pictured major arcana. Incidentally it's actual design is
clearly post-period being from around 1820. However there are quite period
designs of the same deck.
> Incidentally, 4 suits of 13 cards comes to 52--the standard deck here.
Exactly 4 suits of 13 cards + 2 jokers are the 54 card standard deck.
But Tarot games have 14 cards a suit : 1 to 10 then Jack Knight Queen King
So 4 suits of 14 cards + 21 major arcana + the Fool makes 78 cards (standard
tarot deck size)
Hope this helps.
If somebody should need them I can upload a few scans of standard and
Marseille tarot cards.
From: tarocchi7 at yahoo.com (Huck)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Tarot Museum & History / Playing Card development 14th/15th century
Date: 18 Jul 2004 16:01:42 -0700
Tarot Museum
Playing Card Museum
Tarot History (15th century):
Specific researches:
Oldest Tarotcards (? 1424/1425)
Ferrara 1441
documents early playing cards
Trionfi documents
htp://trionfi.com/0/e2/
Playing cards Tarot timeline (1370 - 1800):
From: tarocchi7 at yahoo.com (Huck)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: 15th century Tarocchi and playing cards
Date: 3 Oct 2004 17:27:11 -0700
Tarot Timeline
Tarot History
Playing Cards Museum
Web Tarot Museum
Tarot News
this month with article to Andrea Vitali
<the end>