cloved-fruit-msg - 9/29/99 Period cloved fruit. Origin of the SCA game. NOTE: See also the files: fruit-citrus-msg, games-msg, sports-msg, spices-msg, SCA-romance-msg, romance-today-msg, SCA-stories1-msg, p-customs-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: crouchet at news.eden.com (james crouchet) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: cloven fruit? Date: 21 Nov 1994 15:56:37 -0600 Michael Josef Lindberg <lindberg at oregon.uoregon.edu> wrote: >I was just wondering if anybody could tell me of the history and origins >of cloven fruit. I'm doing a folklore project on it and would like to know >if customs in other kingdoms are different than those here in An-Tir. Also >any variations would be greatly appreciated. > >Cynric I don't have my documentation handy, but I do know a bit of the history. At least for France. Citrus fruit, which was a costly commodity in the middle ages in Europe because it had to be imported some distance, was decorated with cloves and other spices. Indian (like from India) spices were, I understand, sold by placing the spice on one side of a scale and gold on the other. When the weight balanced you had payed for the spice -- it's weight in gold. Anyway, other decorations included gold pins, lace, gemstones, etc. The gentleman who created this costly, sweet smelling, useless bauble then gave it to a lady. Why? To show he had the wealth to give away. To demonstrate the depth of his commitment to her. To show her family that they would not have to support him. In short, as a marriage proposal. Like I said, I don't have documentation handy, but armed with the above information you should be able to find mention in books that discuss period courting and marriage customs on Europe. I would recommend a large university library as a starting place. Or you could try Archie & Veronica to see if you can find info on the Internet. +--------------------------------+-------------------------+ | Savian Jerome Dore de Valence | crouchet at eden.com | | Bryn Gwlad, Ansteorra | Austin, Texas | +--------------------------------+-------------------------+ From: folo at prairienet.org (F.L. Watkins) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: cloven fruit? Date: 21 Nov 1994 13:57:29 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana The apochryphal story is that everyone had bad breath in the Middle Ages and nobody wanted to kiss anyone else. By biting on a clove, the breath was freshened and liplock ensued. This is what I heard when I first joined the SCA and for some time afterwards, from a dizzying variety of sources. It was, of course, a FOAF sort of thing and nobody could provide any citations. I've seen no period documentation for it and have concluded that it is an SCA custom of unknown origin (although the custom was well known by 1972, when I joined). Yrs, Folo -- Damin de Folo - F.L.Watkins - folo at prairienet.org Baron Wurm Wald (MidRealm) - Commander Baldwin's (NWTA) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Cloved Fruit From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 10:18:11 EST gl8f at fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) writes: > In article <1995Dec8.144138.17446 at atlas.tntech.edu>, > Mary Spila <mms6824 at tntech.edu> wrote: > > >Could/would someone PLEASE give me a brief history of how the game of passin > >cloved fruit was introduced to the SCA. I am doing a brief class on the gam > >(emphasizing "Don't be a jerk") and would like some more information than wh > >I already know. > > I've never heard anyone claim that they knew the origin of this game, > other than vague rumblings that it originated 15+ years ago in > Carolingia. It does seem to have died out in Atlantia. There was one > attempt to revive it last weekend, but I don't think it was very well > received. And my lady threw out this lovely pomander that the queen > herself gave me, the nerve! > > Gregory Blount Respected friend: I know the origins. It was invented out of whole cloth. I did it.* I'm sorry.(check out the Feb. issue of Re-creating History magazine for an article on more authentic kissing games.) }:-> By the way, it started in Canton of the Towers, which is a canton of, but is two days older than, Carolingia. Sigh... *(Lisa Goldenstar helped.) Honour, known societally as Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf; or Una Wicca (That Pict) From: svea at earth.execpc.com (Barbara Johannessen) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Another use for cloved lemons :) Date: 9 Feb 1996 15:40:29 GMT Organization: Exec-PC Carol Cannon (szcannon at barney.ucdavis.edu) wrote: : RCMANN at delphi.com wrote: : : Winter," and I notice that they're showing a Christmas tree (GACK!) : : decorated with cloved lemons. Gives a whole new meaning to : : Robin Carroll-Mann ** rcmann at delphi.com : : SCA: Brighid ni Chiarain, Settmour Swamp, East : Only goes to show how early on in the life of the Society these : customs spread, eh? <impish grin, since I don't know how early this : custom was created> -- Gra/inne Regarding the cloved lemons--I believe that citrus fruits studded with cloves and rolled in other (ground) spices were used as pomanders and air-fresheners for a great deal of the SCA-apprpriate period. The reference I remember but can't immediately find concerned their use during the Black Plague--you carried one around held to your nose so that you didn't breathe in the "contagion". Of course, that's *if* you could afford the ingredients; otherwise you made do with a nosegay of flowers or aromatic herbs. And no, I don't know if the word "nosegay" is period. Eleanor certainly would have been able to decorate with cloved lemon pomanders if she wished. But the *tree* is right out! Madrugada Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Another use for cloved lemons :) From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 96 18:24:09 EST szcannon at barney.ucdavis.edu (Carol Cannon) writes: > Only goes to show how early on in the life of the Society these > customs spread, eh? <impish grin, since I don't know how early this > custom was created> -- Gra/inne > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Cannon, Carol J. Bell cjcannon at ucdavis.edu Grannia [in the SCA] Respected friend: February 1974. I'll make it up to you all yet, somehow... (Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk, R.S.F. Subject: RE: ANST - Cloved Watermelon Date: Mon, 26 Jan 98 08:58:52 MST From: John Ruble <jruble at urocor.com> To: "'ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG'" <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG> > Heck, I remember when Lady Rowena from Blacklake gave a cloven WATERMELON to > one of Sir Ian's squires and told him he had two events to use it up....he > did, too. Of course, he was cute and many of us ladies took "pity" on him! > > Ulrica > > >I will attest that in more youthful and less serious times many of us > >participated in the curious social rituals of the "cloven fruit". > >However, I can not recall an occasion in the past ten years when a > >cloved lemon has appeared (it probably has, I just wasn't there). In > >its heyday, "cloven fruit" appeared at nearly every revel in the form of > >lemons, oranges, zuccini, hats, and, at least once, a pumpkin. > > > >Bear As for the scarcity of this fruit, I see one about every other event, in the North, in the South, or anywhere in between. Some of you who have voiced your dislike of this custom may not see cloved lemons anymore because people know of your dislike, and are respecting it. Usually when I see one, it's because some lady hands it to me and says "Ulf, get rid of this. Somewhere. Anywhere. Just don't let it be found." Cloved lemons make good eating... As for the watermelon, the original occurrence (to the best of my knowledge). Master Ivar and Master Orm were at an event. Ivar walked up to a lady with a cloved watermelon in his hands and a mischievous grin on his face. Her initial horror at the thought of wandering around with this huge watermelon, looking for someone to give it to next, must have shown on her face. So Ivar looked over and say Orm walking nearby. "Orm, my friend," he said, "Could you hold this watermelon for the lady while we exchange the clove?" "Oh, but of course, Ivar," replied Orm. Now the exchange of the clove took some time, as Ivar has trouble with these things, but kept after it until it was done satisfactorily. But when he and the lady looked up, Orm was gone! Ivar said, "Pray, lady, let me find where my friend Orm has wandered off with your watermelon," and off he went. It was long until he was walking by just as Orm was presenting the watermelon to another lady. He looked up at Ivar and said, "Ivar, my friend. "Could you hold this watermelon for the lady while we exchange the clove?" "Oh, but of course, Orm," replied Ivar... This went on for some hours before the ladies started talking and realized that not a one of them had got the watermelon all night. Two Norsemen very nearly died that night... Ulf Gunnarsson Subject: RE: ANST - Cloved Watermelon Date: Mon, 26 Jan 98 09:28:03 MST From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> To: "'ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG'" <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG> >As for the watermelon, the original occurrence (to the best of my >knowledge). Master Ivar and Master Orm were at an event. ... >This went on for some hours before the ladies started talking and >realized that not a one of them had got the watermelon all night. Two >Norsemen very nearly died that night... > >Ulf Gunnarsson Ivar, Orm and Freya, all crew members of the Raven, originally played this game at a Namron event, Protectorate, I believe. The fruit in question was a pumpkin about the size of small basketball. They were on their third pass through the ladies when one of the subjects of their attention caught on to the wily Norse ruse (remember, Ivar has played the part of Loki on several occasions). She took the pumpkin and held it between her knees while kissing Ivar (if I remember correctly) and took off with the pumpkin. I also vaguely remember a small, skirted war party looking for some Norse gentlemen to "give them a present." Since we didn't find any Ravens in the trees, I assume the ladies were unsuccessful in their quest. Bear <the end> Mark S. Harris cloved-fruit-msg Page 5 of 5