cloved-fruit-msg - 2/23/12 Period cloved fruit. Origin of the SCA game. NOTE: See also the files: fruit-citrus-msg, games-msg, sports-msg, spices-msg, SCA-romance-msg, romance-today-msg, SCA-stories1-msg, p-customs-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: crouchet at news.eden.com (james crouchet) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: cloven fruit? Date: 21 Nov 1994 15:56:37 -0600 Michael Josef Lindberg wrote: >I was just wondering if anybody could tell me of the history and origins >of cloven fruit. I'm doing a folklore project on it and would like to know >if customs in other kingdoms are different than those here in An-Tir. Also >any variations would be greatly appreciated. > >Cynric I don't have my documentation handy, but I do know a bit of the history. At least for France. Citrus fruit, which was a costly commodity in the middle ages in Europe because it had to be imported some distance, was decorated with cloves and other spices. Indian (like from India) spices were, I understand, sold by placing the spice on one side of a scale and gold on the other. When the weight balanced you had payed for the spice -- it's weight in gold. Anyway, other decorations included gold pins, lace, gemstones, etc. The gentleman who created this costly, sweet smelling, useless bauble then gave it to a lady. Why? To show he had the wealth to give away. To demonstrate the depth of his commitment to her. To show her family that they would not have to support him. In short, as a marriage proposal. Like I said, I don't have documentation handy, but armed with the above information you should be able to find mention in books that discuss period courting and marriage customs on Europe. I would recommend a large university library as a starting place. Or you could try Archie & Veronica to see if you can find info on the Internet. +--------------------------------+-------------------------+ | Savian Jerome Dore de Valence | crouchet at eden.com | | Bryn Gwlad, Ansteorra | Austin, Texas | +--------------------------------+-------------------------+ From: folo at prairienet.org (F.L. Watkins) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: cloven fruit? Date: 21 Nov 1994 13:57:29 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana The apochryphal story is that everyone had bad breath in the Middle Ages and nobody wanted to kiss anyone else. By biting on a clove, the breath was freshened and liplock ensued. This is what I heard when I first joined the SCA and for some time afterwards, from a dizzying variety of sources. It was, of course, a FOAF sort of thing and nobody could provide any citations. I've seen no period documentation for it and have concluded that it is an SCA custom of unknown origin (although the custom was well known by 1972, when I joined). Yrs, Folo -- Damin de Folo - F.L.Watkins - folo at prairienet.org Baron Wurm Wald (MidRealm) - Commander Baldwin's (NWTA) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Cloved Fruit From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 10:18:11 EST gl8f at fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) writes: > In article <1995Dec8.144138.17446 at atlas.tntech.edu>, > Mary Spila wrote: > > >Could/would someone PLEASE give me a brief history of how the game of passin > >cloved fruit was introduced to the SCA. I am doing a brief class on the gam > >(emphasizing "Don't be a jerk") and would like some more information than wh > >I already know. > > I've never heard anyone claim that they knew the origin of this game, > other than vague rumblings that it originated 15+ years ago in > Carolingia. It does seem to have died out in Atlantia. There was one > attempt to revive it last weekend, but I don't think it was very well > received. And my lady threw out this lovely pomander that the queen > herself gave me, the nerve! > > Gregory Blount Respected friend: I know the origins. It was invented out of whole cloth. I did it.* I'm sorry.(check out the Feb. issue of Re-creating History magazine for an article on more authentic kissing games.) }:-> By the way, it started in Canton of the Towers, which is a canton of, but is two days older than, Carolingia. Sigh... *(Lisa Goldenstar helped.) Honour, known societally as Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf; or Una Wicca (That Pict) From: svea at earth.execpc.com (Barbara Johannessen) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Another use for cloved lemons :) Date: 9 Feb 1996 15:40:29 GMT Organization: Exec-PC Carol Cannon (szcannon at barney.ucdavis.edu) wrote: : RCMANN at delphi.com wrote: : : Winter," and I notice that they're showing a Christmas tree (GACK!) : : decorated with cloved lemons. Gives a whole new meaning to : : Robin Carroll-Mann ** rcmann at delphi.com : : SCA: Brighid ni Chiarain, Settmour Swamp, East : Only goes to show how early on in the life of the Society these : customs spread, eh? -- Gra/inne Regarding the cloved lemons--I believe that citrus fruits studded with cloves and rolled in other (ground) spices were used as pomanders and air-fresheners for a great deal of the SCA-apprpriate period. The reference I remember but can't immediately find concerned their use during the Black Plague--you carried one around held to your nose so that you didn't breathe in the "contagion". Of course, that's *if* you could afford the ingredients; otherwise you made do with a nosegay of flowers or aromatic herbs. And no, I don't know if the word "nosegay" is period. Eleanor certainly would have been able to decorate with cloved lemon pomanders if she wished. But the *tree* is right out! Madrugada Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Another use for cloved lemons :) From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 96 18:24:09 EST szcannon at barney.ucdavis.edu (Carol Cannon) writes: > Only goes to show how early on in the life of the Society these > customs spread, eh? custom was created> -- Gra/inne > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Cannon, Carol J. Bell cjcannon at ucdavis.edu Grannia [in the SCA] Respected friend: February 1974. I'll make it up to you all yet, somehow... (Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk, R.S.F. Subject: RE: ANST - Cloved Watermelon Date: Mon, 26 Jan 98 08:58:52 MST From: John Ruble To: "'ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG'" > Heck, I remember when Lady Rowena from Blacklake gave a cloven WATERMELON to > one of Sir Ian's squires and told him he had two events to use it up....he > did, too. Of course, he was cute and many of us ladies took "pity" on him! > > Ulrica > > >I will attest that in more youthful and less serious times many of us > >participated in the curious social rituals of the "cloven fruit". > >However, I can not recall an occasion in the past ten years when a > >cloved lemon has appeared (it probably has, I just wasn't there). In > >its heyday, "cloven fruit" appeared at nearly every revel in the form of > >lemons, oranges, zuccini, hats, and, at least once, a pumpkin. > > > >Bear As for the scarcity of this fruit, I see one about every other event, in the North, in the South, or anywhere in between. Some of you who have voiced your dislike of this custom may not see cloved lemons anymore because people know of your dislike, and are respecting it. Usually when I see one, it's because some lady hands it to me and says "Ulf, get rid of this. Somewhere. Anywhere. Just don't let it be found." Cloved lemons make good eating... As for the watermelon, the original occurrence (to the best of my knowledge). Master Ivar and Master Orm were at an event. Ivar walked up to a lady with a cloved watermelon in his hands and a mischievous grin on his face. Her initial horror at the thought of wandering around with this huge watermelon, looking for someone to give it to next, must have shown on her face. So Ivar looked over and saw Orm walking nearby. "Orm, my friend," he said, "Could you hold this watermelon for the lady while we exchange the clove?" "Oh, but of course, Ivar," replied Orm. Now the exchange of the clove took some time, as Ivar has trouble with these things, but kept after it until it was done satisfactorily. But when he and the lady looked up, Orm was gone! Ivar said, "Pray, lady, let me find where my friend Orm has wandered off with your watermelon," and off he went. It was long until he was walking by just as Orm was presenting the watermelon to another lady. He looked up at Ivar and said, "Ivar, my friend. "Could you hold this watermelon for the lady while we exchange the clove?" "Oh, but of course, Orm," replied Ivar... This went on for some hours before the ladies started talking and realized that not a one of them had got the watermelon all night. Two Norsemen very nearly died that night... Ulf Gunnarsson Subject: RE: ANST - Cloved Watermelon Date: Mon, 26 Jan 98 09:28:03 MST From: "Decker, Terry D." To: "'ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG'" >As for the watermelon, the original occurrence (to the best of my >knowledge). Master Ivar and Master Orm were at an event. ... >This went on for some hours before the ladies started talking and >realized that not a one of them had got the watermelon all night. Two >Norsemen very nearly died that night... > >Ulf Gunnarsson Ivar, Orm and Freya, all crew members of the Raven, originally played this game at a Namron event, Protectorate, I believe. The fruit in question was a pumpkin about the size of small basketball. They were on their third pass through the ladies when one of the subjects of their attention caught on to the wily Norse ruse (remember, Ivar has played the part of Loki on several occasions). She took the pumpkin and held it between her knees while kissing Ivar (if I remember correctly) and took off with the pumpkin. I also vaguely remember a small, skirted war party looking for some Norse gentlemen to "give them a present." Since we didn't find any Ravens in the trees, I assume the ladies were unsuccessful in their quest. Bear Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 14:03:59 +1000 From: Paul Sleigh Subject: [Lochac] Cloved lemons, was Re: you know... To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list" On 19 July 2011 13:02, Stefan li Rous wrote: <<< Also could be after the first time you accept a cloven lemon from someone.... again, prone to randomness. >>> Is the game of cloved (with cloves, not split which is "cloven") fruit still played in Lochac? It seems to have died out through most of the rest of the Known World, for various reasons. ----------------------- I had a discussion going elsewhere about cloved lemons, the consensus of which from SCAdians and non-SCAdians was that it sounded fine in theory, but there wasn't much to stop it being sleazy and unpleasant, and possibly chasing people away from the SCA entirely. So after thinking about it I came up with this, which I call the Cloved Lemon Enhanced Non-Creepy Heuristic, or CLENCH: *All cloved lemons must be distributed in the first instance by the baron and baroness or their equivalent in your group.* So, if you bring a lemon to a feast yourself, you present it to the Pointy Hats and they pass it on. That means you don't have the opportunity to take control of a lemon when you'd never in a million years be given one yourself, as for example when you're a hideous sleazy old slimebucket. The designated lemon-minders may, of course, pass the lemon on to whoever they like. It's good to be the king! *Any lemon found lying around unclaimed must be returned to the baron and baroness.* There was someone at a recent feast who kept coming past with lemons, and I eventually realised it was because he was "rescuing" them when someone discarded them, and passing them on for his own benefit. That was borderline creepy. *The recipient controls the kiss.* If Fred gives Betty a lemon, Betty decides how and/or where she wants to be kissed. She can proffer her hand, her cheek or her tonsils, as she wishes. Fred may, of course, feel disappointed with her choice, but it would not be the done thing for him to complain, or try to press the issue. *Anyone may refuse a lemon, for any reason or none at all.* It's not inappropriate to say "no thanks". It *is* inappropriate, very much so, to push the matter after one's offer has been refused. *Anyone may refuse on behalf of another person.* So if Fred offers the lemon to Betty, Barney may step in and advise him that the lady is not open to partaking of the Holy Hand Grenades at this time. Fred must retire gracefully. Should he dare to suggest that perhaps Betty can speak for herself in this matter, he should be considered to be committing a *faux pas* of epic proportions. The appropriate assumption is that Betty has already spoken for herself -- to Barney, well beforehand -- which is why he's speaking now. And just one for hygiene: *Remove the clove with your fingers, not your teeth.* Because ewwww. There's one downside of cloved lemons, and that is that they don't work as well as you'd think. Consider this workflow: 1. Betty has a lemon. She offers it to Fred. 2. Fred accepts, and they kiss, quite snoggily as it happens. 3. Betty is now hoping that, the ice being well and truly broken, she and Fred may retire to chat. 4. But no! Fred now has a lemon, and he has to find someone else to give it to. Unless the ice was broken in a particularly singular fashion, that's the end of Betty and Fred's interaction until later. How to fix that? I don't know. Perhaps, if a couple have decided they're happy with each other's company and don't need any more ice broken for the time being, the protocol could suggest that the lemon be returned to the baron and baroness, or whoever the designated lemon-minders are. Not sure about that. Certainly, hogging the lemon is not on! : Bat : Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 17:11:22 +1000 From: Marie Alessi Subject: Re: [Lochac] Cloved lemons, was Re: you know... To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list" I was handed a cloved lemon at my first event- Spring War (2008?) and the kind gentle who offered it to me explained the idea to me, and he said that it was my choice as to where to be kissed etc. I chose my hand, because as lovely as the gentle looked- he was of course a complete stranger, and I'm not in the habit of smooching random strangers! He was very respectful, and it was overall a pleasant experience- I met some great people when I handed the lemon on- and spent part of the night drinking in the tavern with them! I didn't find it creepy at all- it was reasonably late at night in the tavern when it was bought out, so most people who would be bothered by such things were tucked away in their tents for the night. As a first event- that Spring War sealed my fate as a SCAdian- I was hooked! Thyri Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 17:56:43 +1000 From: Paul Sleigh Subject: Re: [Lochac] Cloved lemons, was Re: you know... To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list" On 19 July 2011 17:11, Marie Alessi wrote: <<< I didn't find it creepy at all- it was reasonably late at night in the tavern when it was bought out, so most people who would be bothered by such things were tucked away in their tents for the night. As a first event- that Spring War sealed my fate as a SCAdian- I was hooked! >>> That's what makes cloved lemons problematical. If it were all sleazy old farts sticking their tongues down innocent collegians' throats and newcomers running scared of being sexual assaulted on the dance floor, we could just declare that people suck and lemons are verboten. But for every story of a leering greybeard with one eye on a pert cleavage, there are two or more of people saying the cloved lemons were a major part of what broke the ice for them in the SCA. They're not all bad, and in some cases they're very good indeed! In some baronies, I hear, the Holy Hand Grenade is treated not unlike a manual entitled "How To Rape, Loot And Pillage Without So Much Of The Loot And Pillage", and even mentioning them in polite company can get you shunned. In other baronies (and colleges, I expect) they don't excite much comment at all, and for all I know they might still be standard issue at feasts and revels. I know they're rare but largely unremarkable in Politarchopolis, largely absent in Rowany and apparently completely avoided in Ynys Fawr, according to what I've heard. At any rate, it would be amusing to see how they went down with a suitable protocol attached, but would anyone take the risk? : Bat : Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 18:20:58 +1000 From: Somhairle Mac Nicail Subject: Re: [Lochac] Cloved lemons, was Re: you know... To: The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list I confess that when I came into the SCA it was a while before I was introduced to the cloved lemon. It was College War 14.5, run by St Aldhelm, I believe. It was explained to me that IF someone accepted the lemon (and it wasn't a guarantee they would), then it indicated the acceptance of a kiss. The location of this kiss was at the discretion of (a) the recipient or (b) the female (in the event the recipient was male and the giver was not). These seemed perfectly reasonable operating parameters to me, and I have used them ever since - and told other people this was the procedure. I am shocked, shocked I say!, to find it was not ever thus. Sorle, the ethically unchallenged. Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 19:56:14 +1000 From: "Jo-Anna Apelt" Subject: Re: [Lochac] Cloved lemons, was Re: you know... To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list" My husband and I shared our first kiss over a cloved orange. We had met briefly, earlier that day and were both impressed with the other. The cloved orange gave the perfect opportunity to re-introduce ourselves over the feast.....and 12 years later (in September) we are still happily together. for the Dream. Johanna of Yorkshire (Jo-Anna Apelt) Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2011 03:46:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Yehuda Howard Subject: Re: [Lochac] you know... To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list" When I first read about what the cloved fruit meant in SCA tradition I must have resembled a red glow lamp. I have seen them all my life handed around on Rosh HaShana (jewish new year) and Yom Kippur (ten days later) and sometimes other festivals in the synagogue to have a blessing made over them, and after reading it was at first quite a shock, followed by a great amount of laughter. Yehuda ibn Yishai Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 08:37:41 +1000 From: Paul Sleigh Subject: Re: [Lochac] Cloved lemons To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list" On 20 July 2011 07:24, Stefan li Rous wrote: <<< It was explained to me that IF someone accepted the lemon...The location of this kiss was at the discretion of (a) the recipient or (b) the female... I am shocked, shocked I say!, to find it was not ever thus. >>> This is actually the first time I've seen the "or the female" addition. But it makes sense. And upon thinking about the various combinations, if the (a) condition is given priority when both conditions are met, I think this would work. Stefan =================== At least one correspondent in the discussion I had elsewhere would disagree. While the sleazy greybeard and the buxom collegian are the usual image that springs to mind when considering the downside of lemons, I'm told that at least one young lad felt just as uncomfortable when a dreadfully *old* woman (like, thirty something! ewwww!) propositioned him with a lemon. The "recipient chooses" rule is fairer in practice: if you don't think you'll like the outcome, don't present the lemon. : Bat : Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 08:15:51 +1000 From: Alonya Mazoyer Subject: Re: [Lochac] you know... To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list" One of the more original cloves fruits I have come across is the finger lime. My first thought was "a cloved Cthulu". It was a truly awesome thing. Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 10:51:40 +1000 From: Shayne Lynch Subject: Re: [Lochac] Cloved Fruit To: lochac at lochac.sca.org I think Stefan said... <<< What's a "finger lime"? >>> It is like one tentacle of a budda's Hand < http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddha%27s_hand>, based on examples that I have been given. Thin Skinned and strangely granulated on the inside (IIRC). I have volunteered a Budda's Hand for two feasts that Aelfthrythe cooked for (Valentines from memory). I didn't clove them (that was Crispin's job) and didn't see what happened to them until the end of the feast, at which time they were looking a bit mangled. Francois Guyon. Mark S. Harris cloved-fruit-msg Page 10 of 10