cloved-fruit-msg - 3/6/11
Period cloved fruit. Origin of the SCA game.
NOTE: See also the files: fruit-citrus-msg, games-msg, sports-msg, spices-msg, SCA-romance-msg, romance-today-msg, SCA-stories1-msg, p-customs-msg.
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This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
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Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: crouchet at news.eden.com (james crouchet)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: cloven fruit?
Date: 21 Nov 1994 15:56:37 -0600
Michael Josef Lindberg <lindberg at oregon.uoregon.edu> wrote:
>I was just wondering if anybody could tell me of the history and origins
>of cloven fruit. I'm doing a folklore project on it and would like to know
>if customs in other kingdoms are different than those here in An-Tir. Also
>any variations would be greatly appreciated.
>
>Cynric
I don't have my documentation handy, but I do know a bit of the history.
At least for France. Citrus fruit, which was a costly commodity in the
middle ages in Europe because it had to be imported some distance, was
decorated with cloves and other spices.
Indian (like from India) spices were, I understand, sold by placing the
spice on one side of a scale and gold on the other. When the weight
balanced you had payed for the spice -- it's weight in gold.
Anyway, other decorations included gold pins, lace, gemstones, etc.
The gentleman who created this costly, sweet smelling, useless bauble
then gave it to a lady. Why? To show he had the wealth to give away.
To demonstrate the depth of his commitment to her. To show her family
that they would not have to support him. In short, as a marriage proposal.
Like I said, I don't have documentation handy, but armed with the above
information you should be able to find mention in books that discuss
period courting and marriage customs on Europe. I would recommend a large
university library as a starting place. Or you could try Archie &
Veronica to see if you can find info on the Internet.
+--------------------------------+-------------------------+
| Savian Jerome Dore de Valence | crouchet at eden.com |
| Bryn Gwlad, Ansteorra | Austin, Texas |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------+
From: folo at prairienet.org (F.L. Watkins)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: cloven fruit?
Date: 21 Nov 1994 13:57:29 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
The apochryphal story is that everyone had bad breath in the
Middle Ages and nobody wanted to kiss anyone else. By biting
on a clove, the breath was freshened and liplock ensued.
This is what I heard when I first joined the SCA and for some
time afterwards, from a dizzying variety of sources. It was,
of course, a FOAF sort of thing and nobody could provide any
citations. I've seen no period documentation for it and have
concluded that it is an SCA custom of unknown origin (although
the custom was well known by 1972, when I joined).
Yrs, Folo
--
Damin de Folo - F.L.Watkins - folo at prairienet.org
Baron Wurm Wald (MidRealm) - Commander Baldwin's (NWTA)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Cloved Fruit
From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk)
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 10:18:11 EST
gl8f at fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) writes:
> In article <1995Dec8.144138.17446 at atlas.tntech.edu>,
> Mary Spila <mms6824 at tntech.edu> wrote:
>
> >Could/would someone PLEASE give me a brief history of how the game of passin
> >cloved fruit was introduced to the SCA. I am doing a brief class on the gam
> >(emphasizing "Don't be a jerk") and would like some more information than wh
> >I already know.
>
> I've never heard anyone claim that they knew the origin of this game,
> other than vague rumblings that it originated 15+ years ago in
> Carolingia. It does seem to have died out in Atlantia. There was one
> attempt to revive it last weekend, but I don't think it was very well
> received. And my lady threw out this lovely pomander that the queen
> herself gave me, the nerve!
>
> Gregory Blount
Respected friend:
I know the origins. It was invented out of whole cloth. I did it.*
I'm sorry.(check out the Feb. issue of Re-creating History magazine for an
article on more authentic kissing games.) }:->
By the way, it started in Canton of the Towers, which is a canton of,
but is two days older than, Carolingia.
Sigh...
*(Lisa Goldenstar helped.)
Honour, known societally as
Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf; or
Una Wicca (That Pict)
From: svea at earth.execpc.com (Barbara Johannessen)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Another use for cloved lemons :)
Date: 9 Feb 1996 15:40:29 GMT
Organization: Exec-PC
Carol Cannon (szcannon at barney.ucdavis.edu) wrote:
: RCMANN at delphi.com wrote:
: : Winter," and I notice that they're showing a Christmas tree (GACK!)
: : decorated with cloved lemons. Gives a whole new meaning to
: : Robin Carroll-Mann ** rcmann at delphi.com
: : SCA: Brighid ni Chiarain, Settmour Swamp, East
: Only goes to show how early on in the life of the Society these
: customs spread, eh? <impish grin, since I don't know how early this
: custom was created> -- Gra/inne
Regarding the cloved lemons--I believe that citrus fruits studded with cloves
and rolled in other (ground) spices were used as pomanders and air-fresheners
for a great deal of the SCA-apprpriate period. The reference I remember
but can't immediately find concerned their use during the Black
Plague--you carried one around held to your nose so that you didn't
breathe in the "contagion". Of course, that's *if* you could afford the
ingredients; otherwise you made do with a nosegay of flowers or aromatic
herbs. And no, I don't know if the word "nosegay" is period.
Eleanor certainly would have been able to decorate with cloved lemon
pomanders if she wished. But the *tree* is right out!
Madrugada
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Another use for cloved lemons :)
From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 96 18:24:09 EST
szcannon at barney.ucdavis.edu (Carol Cannon) writes:
> Only goes to show how early on in the life of the Society these
> customs spread, eh? <impish grin, since I don't know how early this
> custom was created> -- Gra/inne
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Cannon, Carol J. Bell cjcannon at ucdavis.edu Grannia [in the SCA]
Respected friend:
February 1974. I'll make it up to you all yet, somehow...
(Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk, R.S.F.
Subject: RE: ANST - Cloved Watermelon
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 98 08:58:52 MST
From: John Ruble <jruble at urocor.com>
To: "'ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG'" <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>
> Heck, I remember when Lady Rowena from Blacklake gave a cloven WATERMELON to
> one of Sir Ian's squires and told him he had two events to use it up....he
> did, too. Of course, he was cute and many of us ladies took "pity" on him!
>
> Ulrica
>
> >I will attest that in more youthful and less serious times many of us
> >participated in the curious social rituals of the "cloven fruit".
> >However, I can not recall an occasion in the past ten years when a
> >cloved lemon has appeared (it probably has, I just wasn't there). In
> >its heyday, "cloven fruit" appeared at nearly every revel in the form of
> >lemons, oranges, zuccini, hats, and, at least once, a pumpkin.
> >
> >Bear
As for the scarcity of this fruit, I see one about every other event, in
the North, in the South, or anywhere in between. Some of you who have
voiced your dislike of this custom may not see cloved lemons anymore
because people know of your dislike, and are respecting it. Usually when
I see one, it's because some lady hands it to me and says "Ulf, get rid
of this. Somewhere. Anywhere. Just don't let it be found." Cloved
lemons make good eating...
As for the watermelon, the original occurrence (to the best of my
knowledge). Master Ivar and Master Orm were at an event. Ivar walked
up to a lady with a cloved watermelon in his hands and a mischievous
grin on his face. Her initial horror at the thought of wandering around
with this huge watermelon, looking for someone to give it to next, must
have shown on her face. So Ivar looked over and saw Orm walking nearby.
"Orm, my friend," he said, "Could you hold this watermelon for the lady
while we exchange the clove?" "Oh, but of course, Ivar," replied Orm.
Now the exchange of the clove took some time, as Ivar has trouble with
these things, but kept after it until it was done satisfactorily. But
when he and the lady looked up, Orm was gone! Ivar said, "Pray, lady,
let me find where my friend Orm has wandered off with your watermelon,"
and off he went.
It wasn't long until he was walking by just as Orm was presenting the
watermelon to another lady. He looked up at Ivar and said, "Ivar, my
friend. "Could you hold this watermelon for the lady while we exchange
the clove?" "Oh, but of course, Orm," replied Ivar...
This went on for some hours before the ladies started talking and
realized that not a one of them had got the watermelon all night. Two
Norsemen very nearly died that night...
Ulf Gunnarsson
Subject: RE: ANST - Cloved Watermelon
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 98 09:28:03 MST
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
To: "'ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG'" <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>
>As for the watermelon, the original occurrence (to the best of my
>knowledge). Master Ivar and Master Orm were at an event.
...
>This went on for some hours before the ladies started talking and
>realized that not a one of them had got the watermelon all night. Two
>Norsemen very nearly died that night...
>
>Ulf Gunnarsson
Ivar, Orm and Freya, all crew members of the Raven, originally played
this game at a Namron event, Protectorate, I believe. The fruit in
question was a pumpkin about the size of small basketball. They were on
their third pass through the ladies when one of the subjects of their
attention caught on to the wily Norse ruse (remember, Ivar has played
the part of Loki on several occasions). She took the pumpkin and held
it between her knees while kissing Ivar (if I remember correctly) and
took off with the pumpkin.
I also vaguely remember a small, skirted war party looking for some
Norse gentlemen to "give them a present." Since we didn't find any
Ravens in the trees, I assume the ladies were unsuccessful in their
quest.
Bear
From: "Robert G. Ferrell" <rgferrell at gmail.com>
Date: October 25, 2009 11:49:51 AM CDT
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] cloved fruit
Stefan li Rous wrote:
<<< I think cloved fruit died out here a few years after I joined the SCA in
1988. I remember a number of revels where the game was suddenly, rudely
ended, when a participant would treat the cloved fruit as a grenade and
heave it into the distance. >>>
We also yelled, "fire in the hole!" or, alternately, "one, two,
five...three, sir!"
Cynric
From: Diane Rudin <serena1570 at yahoo.com>
Date: October 25, 2009 4:42:58 PM CDT
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] cloved fruit
Muriel filia Donaldi de Skia wrote:
<<< "To me, to be presented with cloved fruit would be accepting that
persons offer of trust/friendship/love/commitment, whatever the time
and situation dictates. It is such a shame that it is not done and
given with what I believe to be the proper respect.
"Perhaps we can start it up again?" >>>
What you describe is one interpretation of cloved fruit. The problem was and remains that there was no agreement as to what was intended. So, if you took it believing it was for a friendship-token hug or peck on the cheek, you might end up being the unwilling participant in a very overzealous kiss, because a LOT of people thought that was what it was about -- vigorous "French" kissing. There was no graceful way to indicate in advance of accepting the fruit what your expectations were. It got to the point where I dreaded seeing the things at events, and did my level best to dispose of any I ran across.
There are other ways of indicating trust, friendship, love, and commitment, that aren't as hotly disputed in their intent.
--Serena
From: Jay Rudin <rudin at peoplepc.com>
Date: October 25, 2009 4:43:17 PM CDT
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA,Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] cloved fruit
Ronda Melendez wrote:
<<< To me, to be presented with cloved fruit would be accepting that persons offer of trust/friendship/love/commitment, whatever the time and situation dictates. >>>
If only that had been true. In fact, it was accepting their expectation of osculatory intimacy, on demand and at the level that that person dictated.
It's also accepting their nascent flu germs, and those of the person who offered it to them, and those ...
<<< It is such a shame that it is not done and given with what I believe to be the proper respect.
Perhaps we can start it up again? >>>
If someone wants to kiss me, and is close enough to me to justify it, she won't need a prop, and she should talk to me in private, where it will be more fun to accept, and less uncomfortable to refuse.
Too many people were put into the awkward situation of having to choose between accepting unwanted kisses or publicly saying, "I don't want to kiss you" to a mere acquaintance, both of which are unpleasant.
Robin of Gilwell / Jay Rudin
From: love at roseandchad.net
Date: October 25, 2009 4:55:34 PM CDT
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] cloved fruit
Are we discussing the same practice here? What's being described doesn't seem to match my experiences. Let me outline what I have seen my entire life.
Somebody offers me a cloven fruit. If I accept it, I can put it where ever I like, and the giver is supposed to retrieve it.
I can even choose to remove the clove and place it on the back of my hand, and receive a rather chaste kiss on my hand.
I can hide it in between my lips, on my tongue, or even swallow it. Indeed, there are a myriad of ways to accept a cloven fruit to indicate a variety of meanings, from a token of friendship and courtly love to a token of, well... Nightly love, shall we say?
Is this game played differently outside of the Northern Region?
Rose the Obnoxious
From: Jay Rudin <rudin at peoplepc.com>
Date: October 25, 2009 5:14:12 PM CDT
To: love at roseandchad.net, "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA,Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] cloved fruit
R the O wrote:
<<< Are we discussing the same practice here? What's being described doesn't seem to match my experiences. Let me outline what I have seen my entire life.
Somebody offers me a cloven fruit. If I accept it, I can put it where ever I like, and the giver is supposed to retrieve it.
I can even choose to remove the clove and place it on the back of my hand, and receive a rather chaste kiss on my hand.
I can hide it in between my lips, on my tongue, or even swallow it. Indeed, there are a myriad of ways to accept a cloven fruit to indicate a variety of meanings, from a token of friendship and courtly love to a token of, well... Nightly love, shall we say?
Is this game played differently outside of the Northern Region? >>>
This game was played differently outside of the 21st century.
When I first joined in the seventies, it always meant the same thing -- a long, close embrace and kiss. A year or two later, some people introduced the notion that it might sometimes be a closed-mouth kiss (or perhaps I finally met such people).
In any event, you have documented the issue. It is a public demand to play a sexually charged game for which the two people don't inherently agree on the rules.
Robin of Gilwell / Jay Rudin
From: James Crouchet <james at crouchet.com>
Date: October 25, 2009 6:58:52 PM CDT
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Ansteorra] Cloved Fruit (was 70's things)
Hrumph.
Anyone who thinks a cloved watermelon is the ultimate in cloved fruit has
never had someone special show up with a single cloved grape and a
provocative smile.
Christian Doré
From: Bree Flowers <evethejust at gmail.com>
Date: October 26, 2009 1:41:35 AM CDT
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] cloved fruit
Even if the giver understands the "recipient chooses level of affection"
rule, the problem is less about accepting the fruit and more about what to
do with the stupid thing after you get it. If you're in a committed
relationship and you don't want to engage in anything more than a hug with
anyone other than your mate it makes picking your "target" awkward at best.
Giving it to your mate is right out because it puts them in the same
uncomfortable position. And most of my friends are in the same situation, so
I don't want to foist the stupid thing on them (or in their words when I was
last stuck with one, "give me that thing and I'll kill you"). This leaves
approaching a stranger who might choose a higher level of intimacy than I am
comfortable with, or disposing of it by dumping it on a table, pitching it
into the woods, or "losing" it in the vicinity of a garbage can.
Sorry, but your idea of "fun" is my awkward, uncomfortable and irritating.
~Eve
On Sun, Oct 25, 2009 at 5:31 PM, <sonja.crocker at gmail.com> wrote:
<<< In the game I played, there was a way to indicate the level of affection
desired. If the receiver took the clove out with the hand' it indicated that
she wanted a kiss on the hand. If the receiver took it out with the lips' a
peck on the lips (or cheek). If taken out with the teeth, then a more
passionate kiss was indicated. But these were the rules in Atlantia in the
early 1990's.
Cait O'Hara >>>
From: Karen French <klfrench1023 at att.net>
Date: October 26, 2009 3:14:56 PM CDT
To: Jay Rudin <rudin at ev1.net>, "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] cloved fruit
When given a cloved fruit by someone that either I didn't know well enough or chose not to kiss, I would remove said clove with my hand, and offer my hand to be kissed. That always worked out rather well. Of course, there was the time that a man (who was obviously no gentleman) responded, saying, "Is that all I get?" To which I replied, "My lord, I do not know you well enough to offer you more," and retreated behind my fan. Everyone nearby laughed or applauded. I suppose that worked out rather well, also.
Caterina
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 14:10:31 +1100
From: Paul Sleigh <bat at flurf.net>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] things to do at new comer's feasts
To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing lis <lochac at lochac.sca.org>
On 19 February 2010 13:50, Sam W <wootduosmaster at gmail.com> wrote:
<<< Two words: Cloven Fruit.
Works every time.
~Kotek >>>
Cloven fruit is a good idea, since if you don't cleave your fruit you
have to eat the peel as well, and that can be unpleasant.
Oh, you meant cloved fruit? Ah, well...
My old household was fond of this, and even went so far as to codify
the various options:
<http://flurf.net/batpage/UponYeNatureofThingesCloved>; And Silfren is
wrong about the requirement for heterosexuality, but not about the
limitation to people who are reasonably extraverted and not easily
squicked. If you have a bunch of sleazy old men who see the cloved
lemon as an opportunity to snog underage newcomers, then it's going to
be an unpleasant experience for someone.
Ultimately, the provision of cloved lemons requires education and
monitoring. Make sure nobody is feeling icky because of it. That's
hard to arrange, and while I think I could probably train an
autocratting team at a small event to keep a close eye on proceedings
and stop the rot, I don't think it's something I'd just throw out
there without a lot of thought.
Verdict: not worth the risk. Even if you're only chasing away the
timid little mousy types who wouldn't have had fun anyway, you're
still making a value judgement that I wouldn't stand by.
: Bat :
<the end>