cloved-fruit-msg - 9/29/99
Period cloved fruit. Origin of the SCA game.
NOTE: See also the files: fruit-citrus-msg, games-msg, sports-msg, spices-msg, SCA-romance-msg, romance-today-msg, SCA-stories1-msg, p-customs-msg.
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Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: crouchet at news.eden.com (james crouchet)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: cloven fruit?
Date: 21 Nov 1994 15:56:37 -0600
Michael Josef Lindberg <lindberg at oregon.uoregon.edu> wrote:
>I was just wondering if anybody could tell me of the history and origins
>of cloven fruit. I'm doing a folklore project on it and would like to know
>if customs in other kingdoms are different than those here in An-Tir. Also
>any variations would be greatly appreciated.
>
>Cynric
I don't have my documentation handy, but I do know a bit of the history.
At least for France. Citrus fruit, which was a costly commodity in the
middle ages in Europe because it had to be imported some distance, was
decorated with cloves and other spices.
Indian (like from India) spices were, I understand, sold by placing the
spice on one side of a scale and gold on the other. When the weight
balanced you had payed for the spice -- it's weight in gold.
Anyway, other decorations included gold pins, lace, gemstones, etc.
The gentleman who created this costly, sweet smelling, useless bauble
then gave it to a lady. Why? To show he had the wealth to give away.
To demonstrate the depth of his commitment to her. To show her family
that they would not have to support him. In short, as a marriage proposal.
Like I said, I don't have documentation handy, but armed with the above
information you should be able to find mention in books that discuss
period courting and marriage customs on Europe. I would recommend a large
university library as a starting place. Or you could try Archie &
Veronica to see if you can find info on the Internet.
+--------------------------------+-------------------------+
| Savian Jerome Dore de Valence | crouchet at eden.com |
| Bryn Gwlad, Ansteorra | Austin, Texas |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------+
From: folo at prairienet.org (F.L. Watkins)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: cloven fruit?
Date: 21 Nov 1994 13:57:29 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
The apochryphal story is that everyone had bad breath in the
Middle Ages and nobody wanted to kiss anyone else. By biting
on a clove, the breath was freshened and liplock ensued.
This is what I heard when I first joined the SCA and for some
time afterwards, from a dizzying variety of sources. It was,
of course, a FOAF sort of thing and nobody could provide any
citations. I've seen no period documentation for it and have
concluded that it is an SCA custom of unknown origin (although
the custom was well known by 1972, when I joined).
Yrs, Folo
--
Damin de Folo - F.L.Watkins - folo at prairienet.org
Baron Wurm Wald (MidRealm) - Commander Baldwin's (NWTA)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Cloved Fruit
From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk)
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 10:18:11 EST
gl8f at fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) writes:
> In article <1995Dec8.144138.17446 at atlas.tntech.edu>,
> Mary Spila <mms6824 at tntech.edu> wrote:
>
> >Could/would someone PLEASE give me a brief history of how the game of passin
> >cloved fruit was introduced to the SCA. I am doing a brief class on the gam
> >(emphasizing "Don't be a jerk") and would like some more information than wh
> >I already know.
>
> I've never heard anyone claim that they knew the origin of this game,
> other than vague rumblings that it originated 15+ years ago in
> Carolingia. It does seem to have died out in Atlantia. There was one
> attempt to revive it last weekend, but I don't think it was very well
> received. And my lady threw out this lovely pomander that the queen
> herself gave me, the nerve!
>
> Gregory Blount
Respected friend:
I know the origins. It was invented out of whole cloth. I did it.*
I'm sorry.(check out the Feb. issue of Re-creating History magazine for an
article on more authentic kissing games.) }:->
By the way, it started in Canton of the Towers, which is a canton of,
but is two days older than, Carolingia.
Sigh...
*(Lisa Goldenstar helped.)
Honour, known societally as
Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf; or
Una Wicca (That Pict)
From: svea at earth.execpc.com (Barbara Johannessen)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Another use for cloved lemons :)
Date: 9 Feb 1996 15:40:29 GMT
Organization: Exec-PC
Carol Cannon (szcannon at barney.ucdavis.edu) wrote:
: RCMANN at delphi.com wrote:
: : Winter," and I notice that they're showing a Christmas tree (GACK!)
: : decorated with cloved lemons. Gives a whole new meaning to
: : Robin Carroll-Mann ** rcmann at delphi.com
: : SCA: Brighid ni Chiarain, Settmour Swamp, East
: Only goes to show how early on in the life of the Society these
: customs spread, eh? <impish grin, since I don't know how early this
: custom was created> -- Gra/inne
Regarding the cloved lemons--I believe that citrus fruits studded with cloves
and rolled in other (ground) spices were used as pomanders and air-fresheners
for a great deal of the SCA-apprpriate period. The reference I remember
but can't immediately find concerned their use during the Black
Plague--you carried one around held to your nose so that you didn't
breathe in the "contagion". Of course, that's *if* you could afford the
ingredients; otherwise you made do with a nosegay of flowers or aromatic
herbs. And no, I don't know if the word "nosegay" is period.
Eleanor certainly would have been able to decorate with cloved lemon
pomanders if she wished. But the *tree* is right out!
Madrugada
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Another use for cloved lemons :)
From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 96 18:24:09 EST
szcannon at barney.ucdavis.edu (Carol Cannon) writes:
> Only goes to show how early on in the life of the Society these
> customs spread, eh? <impish grin, since I don't know how early this
> custom was created> -- Gra/inne
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Cannon, Carol J. Bell cjcannon at ucdavis.edu Grannia [in the SCA]
Respected friend:
February 1974. I'll make it up to you all yet, somehow...
(Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk, R.S.F.
Subject: RE: ANST - Cloved Watermelon
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 98 08:58:52 MST
From: John Ruble <jruble at urocor.com>
To: "'ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG'" <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>
> Heck, I remember when Lady Rowena from Blacklake gave a cloven WATERMELON to
> one of Sir Ian's squires and told him he had two events to use it up....he
> did, too. Of course, he was cute and many of us ladies took "pity" on him!
>
> Ulrica
>
> >I will attest that in more youthful and less serious times many of us
> >participated in the curious social rituals of the "cloven fruit".
> >However, I can not recall an occasion in the past ten years when a
> >cloved lemon has appeared (it probably has, I just wasn't there). In
> >its heyday, "cloven fruit" appeared at nearly every revel in the form of
> >lemons, oranges, zuccini, hats, and, at least once, a pumpkin.
> >
> >Bear
As for the scarcity of this fruit, I see one about every other event, in
the North, in the South, or anywhere in between. Some of you who have
voiced your dislike of this custom may not see cloved lemons anymore
because people know of your dislike, and are respecting it. Usually when
I see one, it's because some lady hands it to me and says "Ulf, get rid
of this. Somewhere. Anywhere. Just don't let it be found." Cloved
lemons make good eating...
As for the watermelon, the original occurrence (to the best of my
knowledge). Master Ivar and Master Orm were at an event. Ivar walked
up to a lady with a cloved watermelon in his hands and a mischievous
grin on his face. Her initial horror at the thought of wandering around
with this huge watermelon, looking for someone to give it to next, must
have shown on her face. So Ivar looked over and say Orm walking nearby.
"Orm, my friend," he said, "Could you hold this watermelon for the lady
while we exchange the clove?" "Oh, but of course, Ivar," replied Orm.
Now the exchange of the clove took some time, as Ivar has trouble with
these things, but kept after it until it was done satisfactorily. But
when he and the lady looked up, Orm was gone! Ivar said, "Pray, lady,
let me find where my friend Orm has wandered off with your watermelon,"
and off he went.
It was long until he was walking by just as Orm was presenting the
watermelon to another lady. He looked up at Ivar and said, "Ivar, my
friend. "Could you hold this watermelon for the lady while we exchange
the clove?" "Oh, but of course, Orm," replied Ivar...
This went on for some hours before the ladies started talking and
realized that not a one of them had got the watermelon all night. Two
Norsemen very nearly died that night...
Ulf Gunnarsson
Subject: RE: ANST - Cloved Watermelon
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 98 09:28:03 MST
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
To: "'ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG'" <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>
>As for the watermelon, the original occurrence (to the best of my
>knowledge). Master Ivar and Master Orm were at an event.
...
>This went on for some hours before the ladies started talking and
>realized that not a one of them had got the watermelon all night. Two
>Norsemen very nearly died that night...
>
>Ulf Gunnarsson
Ivar, Orm and Freya, all crew members of the Raven, originally played
this game at a Namron event, Protectorate, I believe. The fruit in
question was a pumpkin about the size of small basketball. They were on
their third pass through the ladies when one of the subjects of their
attention caught on to the wily Norse ruse (remember, Ivar has played
the part of Loki on several occasions). She took the pumpkin and held
it between her knees while kissing Ivar (if I remember correctly) and
took off with the pumpkin.
I also vaguely remember a small, skirted war party looking for some
Norse gentlemen to "give them a present." Since we didn't find any
Ravens in the trees, I assume the ladies were unsuccessful in their
quest.
Bear
<the end>