languages-msg – 7/21/07
Sources for learning old languages. Anglo-Saxon, Latin, Gaelic.
NOTE: See also the files: Latin-msg, literacy-msg, universities-msg, Latin-online-art, Ital-Phrases-art.
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This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
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Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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From Fuzzy Sapiens by H. Beam Piper (1964)
"English is the result of Norman soldiers attempting to pick up
Anglo-Saxon barmaids, and is no more legitimate than any of the other
results."
TO: Simon The Speaker Of N
FROM: Lord Beelzebub
SUBJECT: Re: More Gaelic Stuff
Would that be Scots Gaelic or Irish Gaelic? There are two books
that do a decent job of teaching you Gaelic if you are phonetically
inclined.
'Teach Yourself Gaelic' by Roderick Mackinnon, M.A.. It is Scots
Gaelic. There is also another book, same title but different author,
that teaches Irish Gaelic. They can be found in a public library in
about the 491.xx area. I hope that that helps a little.
* Origin: The Dragons Doom / Dumfries, VA / (703) 221-3258 (RBBS 1:265/109)
From: jaymin at maths.tcd.ie (Jo Jaquinta)
Date: 6 Nov 91 14:22:32 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Maths, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland.
PAMCCOY at GALLUA.BITNET ("Pat McCoy a.k.a. Bones") writes:
>Is there more than one type of Gaelic?
>What's the difference between Irish Gaelic and Scottish Gaelic?
Aaaaaaaarrrrrrgh!
[Pat, you should know better :-]
I have answered this so many times I will have to create a file I
can automatically upload.
There is no such language officially known as Gaelic. More property
Gaelic refers to a related group of Celtic languages. Actually there are two
sub-groups known as P-Celtic and Q-Celtic. These can be broken up
regionally as follows:
Ireland. The first language of this country is *Irish*. There are
different regional dialects of which the two most prevelant are Donegal
Irish and Muster Irish. I think the legal standard is Donegal Irish.
Scotland. The language spoken there is *Scots Gaelic* (pron Ghal-lick).
As Celtic Scotland is a colony of Ireland Scots Gaelic is an offshoot of
old Irish (archaicly known as Erse). It has been influenced a lot by the
previous inhabitants (Picts?).
Isle of Man. The language spoken here is *Manx*. It is a relatively
recent offshoot of Irish (1300s I think). It has some rather obscure words
in it (like verb: "To strike with a beetle").
Wales: The language spoken here is *Welsh*. There is no legal
requirement is Wales to have important documents bilingual. Consequently
many Welsh are rather sensitive about their language and tear down English
roadsigns.
Brittany: The language spoken here is *Breton*. As in Wales the
French would rather they didn't speak it and adopt their culture but they
have their their own ideas (quite rightly).
Cornwall: The language that used to be spoken here is *Cornish*.
The language died out but there has been some recent revival.
I think Irish, Manx, and Scots Gaelic are P-Celtic and Welsh,
Breton and Cornish are Q-Celtic (but I may have my P's and Q's mixed).
As you can see though there is quite a variety of flavour of Celtic
languages. They are all quite different and mutually unintelligible (I can
barely understand the Scots when they are speaking English :-).
One sad thing is that not one of them is one of the "official"
languages of the Europen Community. Without Community funds I fear that
these languages, and that variance of the culture, will be lost. There is
an Irish saying "Ti'r gan teanga i's ti'r gan anam" -- "A country without
a language is a country without a soul".
Seamus
% Seamus Donn, Seneschal Sorcha Ui' Flahairteaigh
%|% Jo Jaquinta Lesley Grant, Chronicler
/\\ | //\ jaymin at lanczos.maths.tcd.ie lgrant at lanczos.maths.tcd.ie
===== 49 Russell Avenue, Clonliffe Road, Dublin 3, Ireland.
/|\ for the Shire of Lough Devnaree (Lough Damh na Ri'gh)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: nostrand at HP-UX.yorku.ca ( Barbara Nostrand)
Subject: Re: Source needed...
Organization: York University Mathematics Department
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1993 01:12:57 GMT
Noble Cousins!
Master Arval mentions the spread of litteracy as a force promoting linguistic
stability. I believe that there are other stronger forces involved.
1) This one relates directly to what Master Arval posted. The printing press
as it makes thousands of exact copies does promote linguistic stability in
a way which copyists did not, regardless of the spread of litteracy.
2) Linguistic stability is also promoted by demographic stability. Linguists
have found that neologisms and other linguistic inventions are most common
among immigrant populations. There are other intersting factors involving
the formation of trade Jargon and Pigin forms of extant languages. The
first involves a lingua franca which is generally an amalgam of several
extant languages. Pigin tends to develop when a large linguistic community
only partially learn some other language.
Thus, a classic example is the viking incursion into England which left
traceable linguistic footprints. Later, the normans conquored England
and for a while Norman French was the offical language in England. Thus,
much "upper class" and "governmental" vocabulary in English can be traced
directly to Norman French. Further, the Normans influenced both poetic
form and grammar such as pluralization. Currently, English is undergoing
a number of linguistic changes (in this case the culprit appears to be
grammar teachers with a faulty understanding of English syntax, semantics
and linguistic history.) There is also a special tendency to try to maintain
the number of loanwords such as "data" taken from Latin. Try counting
1 datum, 2 data, 3 data 4, 5 data, 6 data, 7 data, more sometime. It really
does not make sense in English. The problem is that "data" like many other
things which are collections is uncountable and is instead measurable. Thus,
engineers (despite the protestations of their cousins in English departments)
were actually correct when they wrote things like "... the data is ..." as
they were talking about a collective entity. However, this linguistic
development appears to be spreading and we hear about "waters" in senses other
than "glasses of water" (old usage), "soups", "soaps", "fruits" (old signs
read "fruit and vegetables" new signs read "fruits and vegetables" indicating
a linguistic shift). Actually, drift due to poor education on the part of
the "educated" is one of the major vectors for linguistic drift in modern
society. Examples are "inflamible" (originally meaning something which
can NOT burn) drifting into the meaning of something rather explosive and
the word "irregardless" often used by educated people when the historical
word is "regardless".
Another example of linguistic drift created by English teachers is the
spurious rule against the split infinitive which was derived from Latin.
In Latin, verbs conjugate into the infinitive without taking an auxiliary
word. Thus, it is impossible to split inifinitives in Latin, but quite
it is easy and even poetic to write things such as "to boldly go" in English.
One final note. When did standardized spelling become significant in
English? I believe that it occured in the 19th century with the
publication of Webster's Dictionary in the United States. This dictionary
(as the name indicates) was intended as an eloquition guide and NOT as
a spelling guide. Ironcially, it failed as an eloquition guide and
diverse dialects remain in America. What it has become is a reference for
correct spelling and meaning. This is probably the result of its adoption
by one room schoolhouses.
Finally, why are English spelling and American (U.S.) spelling different?
I suspect that one of the principal factors causing this is an attempt
on the part of U.S. dictionary makers to spell words in a rather German
fashion while the U.K. dictionary makers tend to spell words in a French
fasion (especially for French loanwords.)
Your Humble Servant
Solveig Throndardottir
Totally Ignorant
From: SADV153 at larry.HUc.uab.EDU (Jo Grove)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Old English language textbook
Date: 22 Mar 1994 16:39:02 -0500
Organization: The Internet
THL Maredudd asked if anyone could point him towards a good Anglo-
Saxon English language textbook (or words to that effect; I don't
have the original post in front of me at the moment). I took Old
English for a quarter a few years ago, and the text we used was quite
excellent (although not for the faint of heart--OE is NOT an easy
language to pick up on one's own, unless one already has some
familiarity with language study). Unfortunately I can't remember the
title and editor of the textbook off the top of my head (it was
something EXTREMELY simple like _Introduction_to_Old_English_ or
something like that), but I'll look it up for you when I get home and
post the information tomorrow. One of the most helpful things about
this text, besides the lessons in each chapter and the Anglo-Saxon
prose and poetry selections it contains, is the indispensible
glossary.
I'd suggest reading Anglo-Saxon prose first, then when you feel
confident with that move on to poetry. A-S poetry can be VERY
confusing for someone struggling with the language. Several good
translations of A-S works into Modern English are available, and it's
helpful to have one on hand in case you get stuck while trying to
translate a difficult concept or turn of phrase (which happens LOTS
when you're dealing with A-S!, at least if you're a rank beginner in
the language). The closer to a literal translation you can find, the
better.
Hope this helps. I'll look on my bookshelves to see what the
textbook was called, and what other books might be of interest to
you, and get back to you.
:-) Jamelyn
From: charlesn at sunrise.srl.rmit.EDU.AU (charles nevile)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Old English language textbook
Date: 29 Mar 1994 07:23:24 GMT
Organization: Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology, Melbourne, Australia.
Jo Grove (SADV153 at larry.HUc.uab.EDU) wrote:
: THL Maredudd asked if anyone could point him towards a good Anglo-
: Saxon English language textbook (or words to that effect; I don't
: have the original post in front of me at the moment). I took Old
: English for a quarter a few years ago, and the text we used was quite
: excellent (although not for the faint of heart--OE is NOT an easy
: language to pick up on one's own, unless one already has some
: familiarity with language study). Unfortunately I can't remember the
: title and editor of the textbook off the top of my head (it was
: something EXTREMELY simple like _Introduction_to_Old_English_ or
: something like that), but I'll look it up for you when I get home and
: post the information tomorrow. One of the most helpful things about
I think the title is
A Guide To Old English - I used a book that sounded like the deleted
description, and thought it was good. Unfortunately I lent it to someone
who still has it, but has moved.
good luck
Ragnar (Vlachernai NVG)
charlesn at sunrise.srl.rmit.EDU.AU
From: SADV153 at larry.HUc.uab.EDU (Jo Grove)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Old English language texts
Date: 24 Mar 1994 10:52:49 -0500
Organization: The Internet
[OOPS!!! Sorry this didn't go out the first time. It looks like my e-
mailer must have eaten most of the original message--either that, or
something in the ether snagged it. Let me try again....]
Unto THL Maredudd (and other interested persons), greetings once
again!
Here are two texts that might be of some use to you in learning Old
English. The first is a textbook that I used in an Intro to Old
English class, and the second is a more up-to-date text that was
recommended by my professor.
_Bright's_Old_English_Grammar_and_Reader_, edited by Frederic G.
Cassidy and Richard N. Ringler. ISBN 0-03-084713-3. c 1971 and
published by Hold, Rhinehart, and Wingler (I *think*...my prof was
reading this info to me over the phone, and I may have misheard the
publisher's name).
_A_Guide_to_Old_English_, edited by Bruce Mitchell and Fred C.
Robinson. ISBN 0-631-13625-8. 4th Ed., c 1986
Hope this helps!
Jamelyn (who actually CAN talk about something besides sheep...and in
another language, too!)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Old English language
From: scott.fridenberg at thehub.com (Scott Fridenberg)
Date: Sun, 27 Mar 94 03:51:00 -0600
Organization: The Hub! BBS - Tulsa, OK - 918-627-0923
Someone was asking about an Anglo-Saxon textbook. I don't know much about
that but I did find an Anglo-Saxon dictionary, in a Thrift Store of all
places. The information is as follows:
The Student's Dictionary of Anglo-Saxon
Sweet, Henery, M.A., Ph.D., LL.D.
Oxford University Press
Ely House, London W. I (1967)
(BTW, What is an LL.D.?)
Robert Fitzmorgan
Northkeep, Ansteorra
From: goldschm at hal.COM (Steve Goldschmidt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Old English Language Textbook
Date: 30 Mar 1994 01:00:50 GMT
Organization: HAL Computer Systems, Inc.
The best text I've seen is Mitchell and Robinson, _A Guide to Old
English_ ISBN 0-631-13625-8. It's available in paperback, covers
everything, and has hints for folks who are teaching themselves.
Iulstan Sigewealding (Stephen Goldschmidt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ar070 at FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Carole Fraser)
Subject: Re: Old English Language
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 1994 01:54:31 GMT
To whoever was asking about an Old English textbook, it would really
depend on what you were looking for.
If you want a good grammer and introduction text, the Mitchell and
Robinson previously mentioned is a very good start. It was what my
professor began me with. The introductory grammer is easy to understand
and well laid out. The texts given are both in prose and poetry and range
from biblical passages, part of The Battle of Maldon to Beowulf.
If you are looking for Beowulf, F. Klaeber's text, probably 3rd edition is
really good. It has the full text, an excellent glossay and a good set of
notes. It also has some other textual fragments.
However, probably my best suggestion for translation material is BEOWULF,
a translation by Burton Raffel. It is a modern English poetic translation
that I have found quite satisfactory in aiding my translation work. It
doesn't allow me to copy directly but gives me enough of an idea such that
I am not pulling my hair out in frustration at the convoluted sentence
structure. The other good thing about Raffel is that on page xx of his
Introduction is a listing of all the sources he used: dictionaries,
supplements, grammars, sources and general introductions to the period.
Wes thu hale!
--
CAROLE FRASER
ar070 at freenet.carleton.ca
From: aj at wg.icl.co.uk (Tony Jebson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Anglo-Saxon Borrowings
Date: 22 Sep 1994 05:22:32 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
Dani (dani at telerama.lm.com) writes:
> For that matter, do any of the sources have anything to say about Celtic
> influences upon the English language?
I knew that historical linguistics book would come in useful one day...
Borrowings in Old English come from a number of different places, at different
times:
1. Borrowings from non-Germanic Indo-European (IE) into the proto-WestGermanic
stock which evolved via Anglo-Frisian to become Old English. It is known
that these words had already been borrowed before Old English (OE) appeared
as a separate language because they appear, fully integrated, in the
entire West Germanic family of languages.
These fully integrated loans are mainly from Celtic and Latin, with Latin
loans being the more important. There are very few (2-3) well attested loans:
proto-Celtic */ri:k-/ "king" appears in Old English as rice "kingdom"
^ the * means the word is a reconstruction
Gaulish ambactos "servant" appears in Old English as ambeht "servant"
The Latin component is much larger. Typical words borrowings are: "wine"
(Latin winum, OE win); "trade, traffic" (L caupo, OE ceapian).
[Aside: an interesting point is that wine and vine in English both have the
same root--Latin winum--but were borrowed at different times. What has
happened is that between the two borrowings the pronunciation of the Latin
changed and this is mirrored in two borrowings]
2. Latin
Latin influence on OE is divided into two periods: early settlement (450-600),
and post-Christian (650+). Among early loans are:
stopp "stop" < stroppus (< means derived from)
forca "fork" < furca
maegester "master" < magister.
etc, etc
Lots more loans came in during the later period, largely through the Church.
So many of these, like culpe "guilt" < culpa, are connected with Christianity
and its institutions. Yet more words were borrowed in the tenth century as a
result of the Benedictine reformation. Approx 3% of OE is borrowed from Latin
(in modern English roughly 70% of words are borrowed!).
3. Scandinavian. Loads of loans here, Viking invasions and all that. The
identification of these is quite difficult (they are from NorthGermanic
languages which are closely related). There are about 900 attested North
Germanic loans into English, only 150 of which appear in OE sources, the
rest only manifest themselves in the 12th and 13th centuries in Middle
English even though they must have been around earlier. [before anyone
suggests it, I don't believe that the 750 or so missing words came into the
language via Norman French, they follow OE phonology and morphology too well].
3. Celtic.