languages-msg – 9/5/09
Sources for learning old languages. Anglo-Saxon, Latin, Gaelic.
NOTE: See also the files: Latin-msg, literacy-msg, universities-msg, Latin-online-art, Ital-Phrases-art, Hist-English-lnks.
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This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
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Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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From Fuzzy Sapiens by H. Beam Piper (1964)
"English is the result of Norman soldiers attempting to pick up
Anglo-Saxon barmaids, and is no more legitimate than any of the other
results."
TO: Simon The Speaker Of N
FROM: Lord Beelzebub
SUBJECT: Re: More Gaelic Stuff
Would that be Scots Gaelic or Irish Gaelic? There are two books
that do a decent job of teaching you Gaelic if you are phonetically
inclined.
'Teach Yourself Gaelic' by Roderick Mackinnon, M.A.. It is Scots
Gaelic. There is also another book, same title but different author,
that teaches Irish Gaelic. They can be found in a public library in
about the 491.xx area. I hope that that helps a little.
* Origin: The Dragons Doom / Dumfries, VA / (703) 221-3258 (RBBS 1:265/109)
From: jaymin at maths.tcd.ie (Jo Jaquinta)
Date: 6 Nov 91 14:22:32 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Maths, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland.
PAMCCOY at GALLUA.BITNET ("Pat McCoy a.k.a. Bones") writes:
>Is there more than one type of Gaelic?
>What's the difference between Irish Gaelic and Scottish Gaelic?
Aaaaaaaarrrrrrgh!
[Pat, you should know better :-]
I have answered this so many times I will have to create a file I
can automatically upload.
There is no such language officially known as Gaelic. More property
Gaelic refers to a related group of Celtic languages. Actually there are two
sub-groups known as P-Celtic and Q-Celtic. These can be broken up
regionally as follows:
Ireland. The first language of this country is *Irish*. There are
different regional dialects of which the two most prevelant are Donegal
Irish and Muster Irish. I think the legal standard is Donegal Irish.
Scotland. The language spoken there is *Scots Gaelic* (pron Ghal-lick).
As Celtic Scotland is a colony of Ireland Scots Gaelic is an offshoot of
old Irish (archaicly known as Erse). It has been influenced a lot by the
previous inhabitants (Picts?).
Isle of Man. The language spoken here is *Manx*. It is a relatively
recent offshoot of Irish (1300s I think). It has some rather obscure words
in it (like verb: "To strike with a beetle").
Wales: The language spoken here is *Welsh*. There is no legal
requirement is Wales to have important documents bilingual. Consequently
many Welsh are rather sensitive about their language and tear down English
roadsigns.
Brittany: The language spoken here is *Breton*. As in Wales the
French would rather they didn't speak it and adopt their culture but they
have their their own ideas (quite rightly).
Cornwall: The language that used to be spoken here is *Cornish*.
The language died out but there has been some recent revival.
I think Irish, Manx, and Scots Gaelic are P-Celtic and Welsh,
Breton and Cornish are Q-Celtic (but I may have my P's and Q's mixed).
As you can see though there is quite a variety of flavour of Celtic
languages. They are all quite different and mutually unintelligible (I can
barely understand the Scots when they are speaking English :-).
One sad thing is that not one of them is one of the "official"
languages of the Europen Community. Without Community funds I fear that
these languages, and that variance of the culture, will be lost. There is
an Irish saying "Ti'r gan teanga i's ti'r gan anam" -- "A country without
a language is a country without a soul".
Seamus
% Seamus Donn, Seneschal Sorcha Ui' Flahairteaigh
%|% Jo Jaquinta Lesley Grant, Chronicler
/\\ | //\ jaymin at lanczos.maths.tcd.ie lgrant at lanczos.maths.tcd.ie
===== 49 Russell Avenue, Clonliffe Road, Dublin 3, Ireland.
/|\ for the Shire of Lough Devnaree (Lough Damh na Ri'gh)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: nostrand at HP-UX.yorku.ca ( Barbara Nostrand)
Subject: Re: Source needed...
Organization: York University Mathematics Department
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1993 01:12:57 GMT
Noble Cousins!
Master Arval mentions the spread of litteracy as a force promoting linguistic
stability. I believe that there are other stronger forces involved.
1) This one relates directly to what Master Arval posted. The printing press
as it makes thousands of exact copies does promote linguistic stability in
a way which copyists did not, regardless of the spread of litteracy.
2) Linguistic stability is also promoted by demographic stability. Linguists
have found that neologisms and other linguistic inventions are most common
among immigrant populations. There are other intersting factors involving
the formation of trade Jargon and Pigin forms of extant languages. The
first involves a lingua franca which is generally an amalgam of several
extant languages. Pigin tends to develop when a large linguistic community
only partially learn some other language.
Thus, a classic example is the viking incursion into England which left
traceable linguistic footprints. Later, the normans conquored England
and for a while Norman French was the offical language in England. Thus,
much "upper class" and "governmental" vocabulary in English can be traced
directly to Norman French. Further, the Normans influenced both poetic
form and grammar such as pluralization. Currently, English is undergoing
a number of linguistic changes (in this case the culprit appears to be
grammar teachers with a faulty understanding of English syntax, semantics
and linguistic history.) There is also a special tendency to try to maintain
the number of loanwords such as "data" taken from Latin. Try counting
1 datum, 2 data, 3 data 4, 5 data, 6 data, 7 data, more sometime. It really
does not make sense in English. The problem is that "data" like many other
things which are collections is uncountable and is instead measurable. Thus,
engineers (despite the protestations of their cousins in English departments)
were actually correct when they wrote things like "... the data is ..." as
they were talking about a collective entity. However, this linguistic
development appears to be spreading and we hear about "waters" in senses other
than "glasses of water" (old usage), "soups", "soaps", "fruits" (old signs
read "fruit and vegetables" new signs read "fruits and vegetables" indicating
a linguistic shift). Actually, drift due to poor education on the part of
the "educated" is one of the major vectors for linguistic drift in modern
society. Examples are "inflamible" (originally meaning something which
can NOT burn) drifting into the meaning of something rather explosive and
the word "irregardless" often used by educated people when the historical
word is "regardless".
Another example of linguistic drift created by English teachers is the
spurious rule against the split infinitive which was derived from Latin.
In Latin, verbs conjugate into the infinitive without taking an auxiliary
word. Thus, it is impossible to split inifinitives in Latin, but quite
it is easy and even poetic to write things such as "to boldly go" in English.
One final note. When did standardized spelling become significant in
English? I believe that it occured in the 19th century with the
publication of Webster's Dictionary in the United States. This dictionary
(as the name indicates) was intended as an eloquition guide and NOT as
a spelling guide. Ironcially, it failed as an eloquition guide and
diverse dialects remain in America. What it has become is a reference for
correct spelling and meaning. This is probably the result of its adoption
by one room schoolhouses.
Finally, why are English spelling and American (U.S.) spelling different?
I suspect that one of the principal factors causing this is an attempt
on the part of U.S. dictionary makers to spell words in a rather German
fashion while the U.K. dictionary makers tend to spell words in a French
fasion (especially for French loanwords.)
Your Humble Servant
Solveig Throndardottir
Totally Ignorant
From: SADV153 at larry.HUc.uab.EDU (Jo Grove)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Old English language textbook
Date: 22 Mar 1994 16:39:02 -0500
Organization: The Internet
THL Maredudd asked if anyone could point him towards a good Anglo-
Saxon English language textbook (or words to that effect; I don't
have the original post in front of me at the moment). I took Old
English for a quarter a few years ago, and the text we used was quite
excellent (although not for the faint of heart--OE is NOT an easy
language to pick up on one's own, unless one already has some
familiarity with language study). Unfortunately I can't remember the
title and editor of the textbook off the top of my head (it was
something EXTREMELY simple like _Introduction_to_Old_English_ or
something like that), but I'll look it up for you when I get home and
post the information tomorrow. One of the most helpful things about
this text, besides the lessons in each chapter and the Anglo-Saxon
prose and poetry selections it contains, is the indispensible
glossary.
I'd suggest reading Anglo-Saxon prose first, then when you feel
confident with that move on to poetry. A-S poetry can be VERY
confusing for someone struggling with the language. Several good
translations of A-S works into Modern English are available, and it's
helpful to have one on hand in case you get stuck while trying to
translate a difficult concept or turn of phrase (which happens LOTS
when you're dealing with A-S!, at least if you're a rank beginner in
the language). The closer to a literal translation you can find, the
better.
Hope this helps. I'll look on my bookshelves to see what the
textbook was called, and what other books might be of interest to
you, and get back to you.
:-) Jamelyn
From: charlesn at sunrise.srl.rmit.EDU.AU (charles nevile)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Old English language textbook
Date: 29 Mar 1994 07:23:24 GMT
Organization: Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology, Melbourne, Australia.
Jo Grove (SADV153 at larry.HUc.uab.EDU) wrote:
: THL Maredudd asked if anyone could point him towards a good Anglo-
: Saxon English language textbook (or words to that effect; I don't
: have the original post in front of me at the moment). I took Old
: English for a quarter a few years ago, and the text we used was quite
: excellent (although not for the faint of heart--OE is NOT an easy
: language to pick up on one's own, unless one already has some
: familiarity with language study). Unfortunately I can't remember the
: title and editor of the textbook off the top of my head (it was
: something EXTREMELY simple like _Introduction_to_Old_English_ or
: something like that), but I'll look it up for you when I get home and
: post the information tomorrow. One of the most helpful things about
I think the title is
A Guide To Old English - I used a book that sounded like the deleted
description, and thought it was good. Unfortunately I lent it to someone
who still has it, but has moved.
good luck
Ragnar (Vlachernai NVG)
charlesn at sunrise.srl.rmit.EDU.AU
From: SADV153 at larry.HUc.uab.EDU (Jo Grove)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Old English language texts
Date: 24 Mar 1994 10:52:49 -0500
Organization: The Internet
[OOPS!!! Sorry this didn't go out the first time. It looks like my e-
mailer must have eaten most of the original message--either that, or
something in the ether snagged it. Let me try again....]
Unto THL Maredudd (and other interested persons), greetings once
again!
Here are two texts that might be of some use to you in learning Old
English. The first is a textbook that I used in an Intro to Old
English class, and the second is a more up-to-date text that was
recommended by my professor.
_Bright's_Old_English_Grammar_and_Reader_, edited by Frederic G.
Cassidy and Richard N. Ringler. ISBN 0-03-084713-3. c 1971 and
published by Hold, Rhinehart, and Wingler (I *think*...my prof was
reading this info to me over the phone, and I may have misheard the
publisher's name).
_A_Guide_to_Old_English_, edited by Bruce Mitchell and Fred C.
Robinson. ISBN 0-631-13625-8. 4th Ed., c 1986
Hope this helps!
Jamelyn (who actually CAN talk about something besides sheep...and in
another language, too!)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Old English language
From: scott.fridenberg at thehub.com (Scott Fridenberg)
Date: Sun, 27 Mar 94 03:51:00 -0600
Organization: The Hub! BBS - Tulsa, OK - 918-627-0923
Someone was asking about an Anglo-Saxon textbook. I don't know much about
that but I did find an Anglo-Saxon dictionary, in a Thrift Store of all
places. The information is as follows:
The Student's Dictionary of Anglo-Saxon
Sweet, Henery, M.A., Ph.D., LL.D.
Oxford University Press
Ely House, London W. I (1967)
(BTW, What is an LL.D.?)
Robert Fitzmorgan
Northkeep, Ansteorra
From: goldschm at hal.COM (Steve Goldschmidt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Old English Language Textbook
Date: 30 Mar 1994 01:00:50 GMT
Organization: HAL Computer Systems, Inc.
The best text I've seen is Mitchell and Robinson, _A Guide to Old
English_ ISBN 0-631-13625-8. It's available in paperback, covers
everything, and has hints for folks who are teaching themselves.
Iulstan Sigewealding (Stephen Goldschmidt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ar070 at FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Carole Fraser)
Subject: Re: Old English Language
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 1994 01:54:31 GMT
To whoever was asking about an Old English textbook, it would really
depend on what you were looking for.
If you want a good grammer and introduction text, the Mitchell and
Robinson previously mentioned is a very good start. It was what my
professor began me with. The introductory grammer is easy to understand
and well laid out. The texts given are both in prose and poetry and range
from biblical passages, part of The Battle of Maldon to Beowulf.
If you are looking for Beowulf, F. Klaeber's text, probably 3rd edition is
really good. It has the full text, an excellent glossay and a good set of
notes. It also has some other textual fragments.
However, probably my best suggestion for translation material is BEOWULF,
a translation by Burton Raffel. It is a modern English poetic translation
that I have found quite satisfactory in aiding my translation work. It
doesn't allow me to copy directly but gives me enough of an idea such that
I am not pulling my hair out in frustration at the convoluted sentence
structure. The other good thing about Raffel is that on page xx of his
Introduction is a listing of all the sources he used: dictionaries,
supplements, grammars, sources and general introductions to the period.
Wes thu hale!
--
CAROLE FRASER
ar070 at freenet.carleton.ca
From: aj at wg.icl.co.uk (Tony Jebson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Anglo-Saxon Borrowings
Date: 22 Sep 1994 05:22:32 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
Dani (dani at telerama.lm.com) writes:
> For that matter, do any of the sources have anything to say about Celtic
> influences upon the English language?
I knew that historical linguistics book would come in useful one day...
Borrowings in Old English come from a number of different places, at different
times:
1. Borrowings from non-Germanic Indo-European (IE) into the proto-WestGermanic
stock which evolved via Anglo-Frisian to become Old English. It is known
that these words had already been borrowed before Old English (OE) appeared
as a separate language because they appear, fully integrated, in the
entire West Germanic family of languages.
These fully integrated loans are mainly from Celtic and Latin, with Latin
loans being the more important. There are very few (2-3) well attested loans:
proto-Celtic */ri:k-/ "king" appears in Old English as rice "kingdom"
^ the * means the word is a reconstruction
Gaulish ambactos "servant" appears in Old English as ambeht "servant"
The Latin component is much larger. Typical words borrowings are: "wine"
(Latin winum, OE win); "trade, traffic" (L caupo, OE ceapian).
[Aside: an interesting point is that wine and vine in English both have the
same root--Latin winum--but were borrowed at different times. What has
happened is that between the two borrowings the pronunciation of the Latin
changed and this is mirrored in two borrowings]
2. Latin
Latin influence on OE is divided into two periods: early settlement (450-600),
and post-Christian (650+). Among early loans are:
stopp "stop" < stroppus (< means derived from)
forca "fork" < furca
maegester "master" < magister.
etc, etc
Lots more loans came in during the later period, largely through the Church.
So many of these, like culpe "guilt" < culpa, are connected with Christianity
and its institutions. Yet more words were borrowed in the tenth century as a
result of the Benedictine reformation. Approx 3% of OE is borrowed from Latin
(in modern English roughly 70% of words are borrowed!).
3. Scandinavian. Loads of loans here, Viking invasions and all that. The
identification of these is quite difficult (they are from NorthGermanic
languages which are closely related). There are about 900 attested North
Germanic loans into English, only 150 of which appear in OE sources, the
rest only manifest themselves in the 12th and 13th centuries in Middle
English even though they must have been around earlier. [before anyone
suggests it, I don't believe that the 750 or so missing words came into the
language via Norman French, they follow OE phonology and morphology too well].
3. Celtic.
There are about 12 secure Celtic loans in OE; most of these are from Brythonic
(p) Celtic - the dialect group spoken by the larger number of British
inhabitants.
They are: binn "bin", bannoc "bit", dunn "dun, grey", broc "badger",
bratt "cloak", carr "rock", luh "lake", torr "rock", cumb "deep valley".
A very small number came from Goidelic (q) Celtic, and are associated with
the church (apparently borrowed from Irish missionaries):
dry "magician" < Old Irish drui
ancor "hermit" < anchara
staer "story" < stoir
also cros(s) which only appears in place names. The usual OE is rod.
Tony
--- Tony Jebson --- International Computers Limited (ICL)
--- +44 625 617193 --- +44 61 223 1301 ext 3099 (work)
--- aj at wg.icl.co.uk --- All opinions expressed here (however stupid) are my own,
----------------------- and nothing stated here is an official statement by ICL.
From: bettina.helms at 7thwave.com (Bettina Helms)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Anglo-Saxon Borrowings
Date: 23 Sep 94 01:09:00 GMT
Organization: TSUNAMI - Catch the Wave! * Ponte Vedra, FL * 904-273-9738
TJ>Borrowings in Old English come from a number of different places, at differe
TJ>times:
TJ>1. Borrowings from non-Germanic Indo-European (IE) into the proto-WestGerma
TJ> stock which evolved via Anglo-Frisian to become Old English. It is known
TJ> that these words had already been borrowed before Old English (OE) appea
TJ> as a separate language because they appear, fully integrated, in the
TJ> entire West Germanic family of languages.
TJ>These fully integrated loans are mainly from Celtic and Latin, with
TJ>Latin loans being the more important. There are very few (2-3) well
TJ>attested loans
TJ>proto-Celtic */ri:k-/ "king" appears in Old English as rice "kingdom"
TJ> ^ the * means the word is a reconstruction
This element, with exactly the same meaning, also occurs in Latin "rex"
and Gothic (*East* Germanic) "-ric"...and Sanskrit "rajah". Who borrowed
from whom, and in which direction(s)?
From: aj at wg.icl.co.uk (Tony Jebson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon Borrowings
Date: 23 Sep 1994 11:40:55 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
bettina.helms at 7thwave.com (Bettina Helms) writes:
> This element, with exactly the same meaning, also occurs in Latin "rex"
> and Gothic (*East* Germanic) "-ric"...and Sanskrit "rajah". Who borrowed
> from whom, and in which direction(s)?
To be perfectly honest, I haven't got a clue... [thumbs through book]
Aaah! So thats how it works... [dim light dawns]
More fully, the borrowing goes like this: the Celtic root is */ri:k-/ "king".
This was borrowed into proto-Germanic before this differentiated into
separate dialects, and appears in Gothic as "reiks", Old Saxon as "-rik",
and Old Icelandic as "-rik" (the last 2 only as name-elements).
It also appears as the word "kingdom" in Gothic as "reiki", Old High German
as "rihhi", and Old English as "rice".
The Proto-Indo-European root of */ri:k-/ is apparently */re:g-/ via a well
known sound change from PIE to Celtic of */e:/ to */i:/. If the Germanic
forms were direct PIE inheritances, we would expect Gothic "reks", Old
English "rece", etc.
Thus the Latin form "rex" is a direct inheritance from PIE */re:g-s/, and I've
no idea on Sanskrit... the books I have are all aimed at OE, and I don't
really understand this sound-change malarky very well.
[Idea for new heraldic device: the FERRET -- a small mink-like creature with
its tail on fire... no offence intended, Ferret, but you do get into a lot
of Flame-wars!]
[I going to go and get quietly (noisily?) drunk now... and then tomorrow I
get to HIT people... yes, I know, I'm a stick-jock but it *is* FUN!]
Tony
--- Tony Jebson --- International Computers Limited (ICL)
/dev/brain: Permission denied
--- aj at wg.icl.co.uk --- All opinions expressed here (however stupid) are my own,
----------------------- and nothing stated here is an official statement by ICL.
From: nostrand at mathstat.yorku.ca (Solveig Throndardottir)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Learning Latin
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 00:19:13 -0500
Organization: DeMoivre Institute of Mathematical Sciences
Noble Cousins!
The Latin language changed over time. For those interested in learning
the classical language, I believe that the Cambridge Latin Course
Cambridge University Press (4 Vol.) may be of some help. There are also
accompanying cassette tapes (although I have not seen those stocked by
bookstores).
ISBN 0 521 34379 8 Vol 1
ISBN 0 521 34381 X Vol 2
ISBN 0 521 34382 8 Vol 3
ISBN 0 521 34380 1 Vol 4
These should be volumes of the North American Thrid Edition. I hope that
this proves useful to someone.
Your Humble Servant
Solvieg Throndardottir
Amateur Scholar
From: dnb105 at psu.edu (Ferret)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Learning Latin
Date: Fri, 30 Jun 1995 19:28:47 GMT
Organization: Penn State University
There is also "Calis", a computer aided teaching program for Latin from Duke
University.
Ferret
From: noramunro at aol.com (Noramunro)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Learning Latin
Date: 1 Jul 1995 10:16:33 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
There's a very nice Latin drill program (runs out of Windows, don't know
if there are other versions) called Lingua Latina. It's almost freeware,
and I'm quite impressed with it. Anyone's who's interested can email me
for specifics.
As for textbooks, I'd recommend getting Allen and Greenough's _New Latin
Grammar_. Most of the classics students I know use the Collins Gem
dictionary as a pocket reference, but I've had more success with the New
College Latin-English Dictionary published by Bantam. For medieval Latin,
Lewis and Short's dictionary is the old standby, but costs about $110 US;
if there's a university nearby, you may want to check out their library
and see if they have it. The Oxford Latin Dictionary is also nice, but
doesn't included examples from Christian authors, so it's of limited use
in medieval Latin.
--Lady Alianora Munro
Barony of Bright Hills, Atlantia
From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Basque Names
Date: 24 Nov 1996 05:04:31 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Lorilynn Iversen (miaminix at westworld.com) wrote:
: f339j at unb.CA (Daniel Flemming) wrote:
: > (The Basque language actually
: >predates Latin...)
: I'll say. According to Dr. L.L. Cavalli-Sforza's new book, genetic
: evidence suggests that the Basque language might just be the only
: surviving remnant of the language of the Neolithic inhabitants of the
: region, popularly known as the Cro-Magnons! Would that qualify as
: OOP? :)
If I may put on my historical-linguist hat for a moment ....
To say that a language "predates" another language or that a language is
"older" than another language is often extremely misleading. The version
of Basque that existed prior to the arbitrarily-defined beginning date of
what we call Latin is, no doubt, as wildly different from modern Basque as
Latin is from Modern Italian. Both of the above claims imply -- whether
intended or not -- that the modern Basque language has existed in
completely unchanging form since a very early period, either pre-Latin or
Neolithic times. This simply isn't the case. Of _course_ the Basque
language has changed. And Latin didn't spring full-blown into existence
from Zeus's forehead (oh, 'scuse me, Jupiter's forehead). "Latin" in
_some_ sense also existed prior to Latin, and _some_ direct ancestor to
Latin existed in Neolithic times, just as _some_ ancestor of Basque
existed then. The relevant point of the "Basque as Neolithic European
language" observation is not that modern Basque speakers are speaking some
fossilized antique language, but rather that the speakers of that
long-distant ancestor of the modern Basque language appear to have been
living in modern Europe, while the contemporary speakers of the
long-distant ancestors of every other modern European language were doing
it somewhere other than Europe.
It is generally not a useful statement to say that a language is "older"
than a contemporary language. The names of languages are somewhat
arbitrary, technical labels. For example, it is not valid to say "Irish
Gaelic is older than Scots Gaelic" simply because the ancestor to both of
them is called "Old Irish" rather than "Old Scottish" or "Old Gaelic".
These are arbitrary labels, based on divisions of the language designed
for the convenience of modern linguists.
The fact that we have unrelated names for major stages in the evolution of
Latin (e.g., Umbrian > Latin > Italian -- although I should note that
Umbrian is only one of several languages that contributed to the
development of Latin) misleads us into thinking that they are more
separate in character than language stages with more similar names (e.g.,
Old German, Middle German, Modern German). If those who study the
historical development of Basque had found it convenient and logical to --
just for the sake of example -- call the period of the language from AD
1600 to the present "Basque", that from AD 1000 - 1600 "Gorblx", that from
AD 300 - 1000 "Mifner", that from 500 BC - AD 300 "Orilan" and so on (!I
made these up off the top of my head, ok?!!) then we would not be misled
into making statements like "Basque is much older than Latin". A speaker
of the ancestor of modern Basque that was current in 500 BC would no more
be understood by a modern Basque speaker than a speaker of the earliest
language-form to which we give the name "Latin" (ca. 500 BC) would be
understood by a modern Italian. That we have no distinct name in common
use for different developmental stages of the Basque language is simply a
testimony to the lack of attention it is given in the Western linguistics
community (and, quite probably, to the scarcity of surviving evidence for
those early stages).
(There, there Sappy -- or may I call you Xaboitsu? -- I know that was a
bit weighty. Here's some extra soap chips. Run along now.)
Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn
From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: SCA Survey Please help Me!
Date: 23 Apr 1997 16:30:49 GMT
Organization: University of California at Berkeley
Michael Lindberg <lindberg at sun2.ruf.uni-freiburg.de> wrote:
>This brings up a question I've been wondering about. Does anyone know
>exactly when English lost its Dative case? (being now no different than
>the accusative, often merely with an added 'to') Was it about the same
>time it lost its articles when French was the 'official' language of
>England or was it later?
English still has a definite and an indefinite article ("the" and
"a/an" respectively). We don't have grammatical gender any more--
"the" can translate as "der, die, das," which speakers of English
find terribly confusing when they learn German--which may be what
you meant.
As to the dative case, English lost most of its inflectional
endings during a period on which we have little documentation,
after the Conquest, when almost all written records were either
in Anglo-Norman French or in Latin. But the process had begun
before the Conquest, during the period when speakers of Danish
and speakers of English in eastern England (the Danelaw) discovered
that the vocabulary of their two languages was really very similar,
it was the different inflectional endings that caused confusion--
and got into the habit of dropping them. (T.A. Shippey describes
this process in Robert MacNeil's _The Story of English._)
(I was reading a novel recently in which the inhabitants of an
Italian village, responding to an influx of tourists who think
they speak a little Italian, start speaking slowly and carefully
and entirely in infinitives.)
The tendency in the development of English over the last thousand
years has been to drop inflection and carry the grammatical
meaning, sometimes by prepositions, but more often by word order.
Thus, "he gave the book to me" is perfectly intelligible, but so
is "he gave me the book." The dative (but we would say simply
"indirect object") function of "me" is made plain by context.
Note however that "he threw him the book" is not the same as the
idiomatic "he threw the book at him," which means "the judge gave
the prisoner the maximum penalty permitted under the law."
And that if two pronouns are used, then American and British
usage differs. Turn everything in "the author gave the book to
your humble servant" into pronouns and the American will say "he
gave me it," the Britisher "he gave it me." Then *all* you've
got to go on is context, and your computer-translation software
breaks down.
Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West Albany, California
PRO DEO ET REGE djheydt at uclink
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 14:51:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Maradin at aol.com
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: old languages (was: Sealing Wax Query)
I've used three texts in learning Old English:
1) Moore, Samuel, Thomas A. Knott, and James R. Hulbert. _The Elements of
Old English._ Ann Arbor: The George Wahr Publishing Co., 1977.
2) Father Klaeber. _Beowulf and the Fight at Finnsburg._ Lexington, Mass.:
D.C. Heath and Company, 1950.
3) Mitchell, Bruce, and Fred C. Robinson. _A Guide to Old English._ 4th
ed. New York: Basil Blackwell Inc., 1986.
Each of these I've had assigned on different occasions to take coursework in
Old English for my own M.A. The last is neat, because of the variety of OE
poetry and riddle verse which are included. The first is interesting,
because early exercises are created by the authors, and so make a good model
for those who'd actually like to attempt Anglo-Saxon style literature for SCA
(i.e., how does one as a speaker of Modern English translate back to Old
English).
I don't have the reference information handy, but there are also several
texts in working with Middle English (including a dictionary), for those
Chaucerian buffs.
Gwydion
Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 19:29:43 -0700
From: Robert Schweitzer <robs at ionline.net>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: old languages
>So where does one who wants to learn Old Norse, Old French, Old German,
>or even Old English go for study materials? Latin is easier, there are
>regular textbooks for learning Latin available in a lot of book stores,
>but how could I get materials to learn other old languages?
If you are interested in learning Norse, there is a software company in
my area (southern Ontario), which sells software to learn old Norse (as
well as Old English and several others I don't recall)
There are also a number of people in my canton learning Norse from a lady
in a neighbouring canton. I understand that until the 1930's, Icelandic
and old Norse remained virtually identical.
If you are interested in the computer programs, Contact Ragnar at
nnpeters at ionline.net
He should be able to provide more details.
Rufus
A Saxon surrounded by the Norse
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 19:45:17 -0400
From: Barbara Nostrand <bnostran at lynx.dac.neu.edu>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: old languages
Noble Cousins!
There is Gordon's book on Old Norse which I believe is back in print.
There is a cross-lingual book on Germanic languages which I have somewhere.
I have also seen texts on Old English. However, the best thing to do is
to enroll in a language program at a university which teaches the language
which you are interested in.
Your Humble Servant
Solveig Throndardottir
Amateur Scholar
+-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D. | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM |
| de Moivre Institute | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est |
| 676 Pullman Road 135 | 23 East Collings Avenue |
| Moscow, Idaho 83843 | Collingswood, New Jersey 08108-8203 |
| mailto:bnostran at lynx.neu.edu | (609) 854-8203 |
+-------------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 22:57:45 -0500 (CDT)
From: "J. Michael Shew" <jshewkc at pei.edu>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: old languages
As to Old Norse, my constant companion these days appears to be
An Introduction to Old Norse by E. V. Gordon, Second edition revised by A.
R. Taylor, printed by the Oxford at Clarendon press, 1990, ISBN
0-19-811184-3.
It is the best way to teach yourself a language, in my opinion, to
get several good works in that language and a decent dictionary of the
tounge to bring you into it full tilt. That is what this book is.
I am also in one of those Norse challenged areas where a good
class on the language is not an option.
Mikal
____________________________________________________________________________
Mikal the Ram; an annoying Bard of no redeeming qualities
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 18:46:39 -0500
From: theodelinda at webtv.net (linda webb)
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: old languages (was: Sealing Wax Query)
Having majored in Latin, and then gone on to learn medieval Latin, I
think it's easier to start with classical Latin, and then look into
medieval texts, with the help of a medieval Latin dictionary, or else
just a very complete general Latin dictionary. This is because medieval
Latin comes in a wide range--there are some writers whose grammar and
vocabulary would have warmed the cockles of Cicero's heart, and others
whose grasp of basic Latin grammar was a bit on the shaky side, to be
kind about it. To read medieval Latin, you would need to know the
language right to begin with--and it's easier to get the textbooks for
Classical Latin. There are numerous books out on the market for theose
interested, including some that are good for the independent
student--Frederick Wheelock wrote a very good one, which is intended for
self-directed study by adults, rather than trapped high school students.
I would also start studying Old French and the older forms of
German by learning the rudiments of the modern languages--it's sometimes
easier to pick up the variants on a familiar language than to start from
scratch. However, if you'd rather go for broke, try checking out the
languages section of a university library--they usually have copies of
the most commonly used texts, as well as dictionaries, etc. You might
also want to keep in mind that when you study Greek, Hebrew, Sanskrit
etc. that you are also going to have to learn a new alphabet. Learing a
new alphabet is easy. Learning to think in it, well enough to read
easily, is much harder. Well worth it, if you ask me, but harder.
--Theo
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 09:44:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: Maradin at aol.com
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Sanskrit
<< I'm straining here at the limits of my linguistics knowledge, but isn't
Sanskrit a "root" language for practically all European languages, like Latin
is for the Romance languages? And is some form of Old German a root language
for the Nordics? If you were really interested in picking up a lot of
languages, starting with the roots might be a good strategy. On the other
hand, how close is Sanskrit to anything medieval European?
- Juan >>
With gentle correction, milord, it isn't. Sanskrit is a child of Indic,
which in turn is a branch of Indo-Iranian, which then derives from
Proto-Indo-European. It is PIE which is the root of all these languages.
The descendant of PIE in the Germanic languages is simply that---Germanic.
Linguists haven't labeled any root language as "Old" Germanic. From
Germanic then branches into West, East, and North Germanic. The East
Germanic branch then becomes the now extinct language of Gothic. West
Germanic breaks down into Anglo-Frisian (which in turn becomes English and
Frisian, the language of Vrieseland), and Netherlandic-German. This last
then breaks off into Low and High branches, the High consisting of Modern
Standard German ("Hochdeutsch") and Yiddish. The Low then descends into two
extinct languages, Old Low Franconian (from which we get Dutch, Afrikaans,
and Flemish), and Old Saxon (from which we get Modern Low German, or
Plattdeutsch).
North Germanic is broken into East and West: East yielding Danish and
Swedish, and West giving us Icelandic, Faeroese, and Norwegian. Faeroese,
btw, is "highly similar to Icelandic and spoken in the Faeroe Islands,
located in the North Atlantic about midway between Iceland and Great Britain"
(Pyles and Algeo 75).
For convenience sake, PIE is divided into two sections, satem and centum
languages. These two words each mean one hundred, the first in Avestan (an
ancient Iranic language) and the second in Latin. Basically, the distinction
is due to a phonological development in PIE which I won't go into just now.
As for going to the root languages, one could, if one wishes to take the
trouble. Understand, however, you're going back to around the time of the
Egyptian pharoahs in order to do this, and we have no extant records of these
languages---they're all reconstructions. The reconstruction technique has
been tested to be around 95% accurate, so you could feel comfortable with the
results; but any language you attempt will be written in International
Phonetic Alphabet, each character of which represents a *specific* sound.
That, and any texts on, for example, Balto-Slavic are going to be chocked
full of linguistic notes and explanations in our peculiar formulae. It's not
impossible; just more difficult than you might think. :-)
Gwydion
From: Stephen Bloch <sbloch at adl15.adelphi.edu>
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 14:19:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: SC - Spanish sources
> How different is Catalan from Spanish? (I can read Portuguese fairly
> well because of my understanding of Spanish)
I studied Spanish in high school, then translated some medieval recipes
from Spanish to English, but hadn't formally studied Catalan until I
started looking at _Sent Sovi_. I checked out a "teach yourself
Catalan" book from the library. I must have lucked out: the one I
found had a bunch of sample readings in the back, not only in modern
Catalan but in medieval and Renaissance Catalan too. (The readings
were historical, not culinary, but how much can I ask for?)
It's not trivial to read Catalan with a Spanish background, but it's a
lot easier than without a Spanish background. Some background in French
or Occitan would help too, since France (more specifically, Provence)
is just across the mountains from Catalunya.
Here's an example. The modern Spanish word "ambos", or "both", has as
cognate the word "amb", which in modern Catalan means "with". In
medieval Catalan, however, the "m" was often dropped, and the most
common spelling is therefore "ab", still meaning "with".
Catalan also has some funky grammatical rules. The most intrusive one
is that pronouns for direct and indirect objects are often reduced to
one or two letters, and attached to either the front or the back of the
relevant verb; this can make it tricky looking up the verb in a
dictionary.
mar-Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib
Stephen Bloch
sbloch at panther.adelphi.edu
http://www.adelphi.edu/~sbloch/
Math/CS Dept, Adelphi University
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 10:23:03 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Modern English - OT
Celtic languages are properly divided into two families: The Goidelic
[celtic languages], being Scots Gaelic, Irish Gaelic or Erse, and, IIRC,
Manx. The Brythonic [celtic language] family includes Welsh, Breton, and
Cornish, and weren't there some Celts in Spain who spoke a Brythonic
language? Gallicians? Or were they Galateans? Can't recall. Brain too
old. Meep zorp flug.
Adamantius
troy at asan.com
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 10:15:21 +1100 (EST)
From: Charles McCathieNevile <charlesn at sunrise.srl.rmit.edu.au>
Subject: SC - Modern English - OT
This seems to be a bit of an over-simplification. So here is another, but
more complex, simplified version of the story.
When the Anglo-Saxons invaded (They were a bunch of folks, from around
Northern Germany and Denmark and the Netherlands, mostly) they brought
their languages with them. These languages were germanic, and the british
language of the celts they pushed into wales and the north (welsh is an
anglo-saxon word meaning foreigner!) were displaced. Those celtic british
languages, along with Irish, go under the catch-all name Gaelic. In the
8th - 11th centuries, the Anglo-Saxon languages became closer, as England
was slowly united under the west-saxon and a few other kings. In
addition, a great deal of danish came into the language from the areas
where vikings settled. At one time, danish was a second language, and the
first lagauge of much of the north (Old Danish, this is). in 1016 King
Cnut of Denmark and Norway became king of England, following his father
Svein Forkbeards campaigns. In this situation Danish would have been
doing well, but it should be noted that old danish and anglo-saxon
languages were pretty closely related, and more or less mutually
comprehensible. Following the conquest in 1066, the language at court
became Norman French - and there followed a number of kings who could not
speak english. By the time english became a status language again it had
included lots of french words. It had also collected, from the time of
Alfred or so onwards, a grammar that was not native to the language, but
was required to translate Latin philosophical and religious works. From
this point (see for example Chaucer in, in London, or Piers Plowman in
the North) to modern English there were a whole lot of new words added -
usually derived from Latin or greek, or coined from those languages (eg
televison, depopulation) with a mixture from a fw other places (the raj,
the New World, Arabic, etc)
So it usually is possible to work out where a word comes from. Most of
our 'small words) me, him, the, and etc are Anglo-Saxon. 'It' is Norse
(so is take - the anglo-saxon 'nim' died out in the early modern period,
but most people will have seen it in cookbooks of the period) as are a
number of other words for common things, especially geography, family,
etc. Things that look like french are likely to have been brouoght into
the language in the middle-english period (~1100 - 1500), and if in doubt
about a modern word the answer is probably shakespeare (the linguistic
equivalent of heat and light in physics exams).
But note that this will not get you through more than a dinner-party exam...
Charles Ragnar
Subject: Re: ANST - Re: Thee/Thine
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 98 02:11:48 MST
From: Jodi McMaster <jmcmaste at accd.edu>
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG
Sir Lyonel Oliver Grace wrote, in gracious response to my comment about
"thee" as an Anglo/Saxon's performance error:
> Sounds reasonable to me, but I'd pick up a copy of Sweet's _Anglo-Saxon
> Primer_ or Bright's _Old English Grammar and Reader_ for guidance on
> pronunciation. The Anglo-Saxon pronouns of which you speak are not
> pronounced like their modern English equivalents.
Know offhand where I can get one? I haven't been able to find it in any
of the local bookstores, so I've been relying on some online resources
(which appear to be quite good, for example,
http://www.kami.demon.co.uk/gesithas/OEsteps/pronounc.html) My take is
that <{th}a>, the second person pronoun, is prounounced "thuh," like the
Modern English definite article.
Anyway, thank you very much for your time and response.
AElfwyn
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 12:56:08 -0800 (PST)
From: Vicki Strassburg <taltos at primenet.com>
Subject: Re: SC - reference help
On Mon, 30 Nov 1998, LYN M PARKINSON wrote:
> Are there any English majors out there who could privately post me
> Grimm's Consonant Shift? I can't find my notes (shucks--only been a few
http://www.lengua.com/languages/translations/German/germanlanguage.htm
from this site, I gleaned:
The development of German was affected by several systematic shifts of
certain consonants. The so-called Germanic consonant shift distinguished
the ancient Proto-Germanic tongue from other Indo-European speech. In this
shift, which is described by Grimm's law, an Indo-European p, t, k changed
to a Germanic f, th, h, respectively; Indo-European b, d, g to Germanic p,
t, k; and similarly Indo-European bh, dh, gh, to Germanic b, d, g. After
the western Germanic dialects had developed their own distinctive traits,
the High German sound shift occurred. Datable to AD500-700, it set the
High German dialects off from other West Germanic speech. During that
period the Germanic p, when used initially, or after consonants, or when
doubled, became pf (High German Pflanze, Low German Plante,"plant"); when
used medially or finally after vowels it became ff or f (High German
hoffen, Low German hopen,"to hope"). Under the same conditions the
Germanic t became z (pronounced ts, as in Pflanze) or ss (High German
essen, Low German eten,"to eat"). After vowels, k became ch (High German
machen, Low German maken,"to make"); in all other cases k remained
unchanged except in the extreme south of Germany, where it first became
kch, and later ch. A later change, found also in Low German, is that of
the Germanic th to d (High German das, Low German dat,"that").
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 21:01:42 -0400
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>
Subject: SC - Dictionaries... wow!
Someone provided this URL a while ago, for a site with links to MANY
online dictionaries.
http://www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/rbeard/diction.html
I dutifully bookmarked the section with the Spanish dictionaries, but
somehow never went back to look at it more closely. Tonight, I was
puzzling over two different words that both mean "cabbage", and
decided to see if something online could help. I surfed on over, and was
floored by what I found. The Spanish section contains the 1992 edition
of the dictionary of the Royal Spanish Academy, and a searchable
facsimile of an early 18th century Spanish dictionary. Okay, both of
these are more recent than the materials I'm trying to translate, but they
give me a *heck* of a lot more detail and context than the
Spanish/English desk dictionary I've been working with.
Some of the other languages are exciting, too. There's a searchable
version of the 1694 edition of the dictionary of the Academie Francaise
(and two later editions). There are dictionaries for Catalan and medieval
Latin and Gothic and Icelandic and Low German and... am I babbling?
Anyway, whoever posted that wonderful URL to this this, THANK YOU,
and may the diety of your choice shower blessings on you and yours...
Brighid, babbling and bubbling
Lady Brighid ni Chiarain
Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 13:50:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: SC - language dictionaries
A catalog just came to me which has astounded me. I
have never ordered anything from these people, but
from what they are offering, I will.
The company is:
Schoenhof's Foreign Books
76A Mount Auburn St
Cambridge MA 02138
Tel: (617) 547-8855
Fax: (617) 547-8551
e-mail: info at schoenhofs.com
www.schoenhofs.com
and their catalog is:
The Language Catalog.
This catalog has dictionaries and grammars for 400
languages and dialects. The catalog itself has more
than 630 pages full of dictionaries of every language
on earth and a few dead ones, too. You name a
language, they seem to have a dictionary for it. Some
of the language/dictionaries that have caught my
attention:
Aragonese
Andalusi Arabic
Aramaic/Biblical Aramaic
Catalan
Old English
Middle English
Old French
Medieval French
[including a history of the french language of the
14th and 15th centuries]
Gaulish
Low German
Middle Low German
Old High German
Middle High German
Old Prussian
Gothic
Ancient Greek
Classical Greek
Medieval Greek
Hebrew/Biblical Hebrew
Icelandic
Classical Latin
Medieval Latin
Old Norse
Occitan
and lots more ...
Brighid, I don't know if you have these books, but
the catalog lists a dictionary of obsolete and rarely
used words, by Elvira Munoz. ISBN 84-283-1986-3
$32.95. and a dictionary of medieval spanish by
Martin Alonso. ISBN 84-7299-169-5 $189.95 (2v.
1635p.) The Origins of Spanish : Language on the
Iberian Peninsula through the 11th Century, by Ramon
Menendez Pidal. ISBN 84-239-47521. $99.95. There are
quite a few other dictionaries mentioned that deal
with medieval Spanish.
This place appears to be a source for anyone who wishes
to buy dictionaries to help them with their
translations.
Huette
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 17:20:42 -0400
From: "Alderton, Philippa" <phlip at morganco.net>
Subject: Re: SC - language dictionaries
If you want most of these resources on line, go to:
http://www.cs.latrobe.edu.au/~yuand/dict.html
Philippa Farrour
Caer Frig
Southeastern Ohio
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 21:27:25 -0800
From: "James F. Johnson" <seumas at mind.net>
Subject: Re: SC - the length and breadth of Period - long and wide, of course
ChannonM at aol.com wrote:
> << Only the two main groups in
> northern modern day Italy and in Aquitaine had a written language
> (according to the Romans). >>
>
> Actually there was a written language of Oghams(line markings) that were used
> by pre Roman Irish Celts. I don't know all there is to about it, but I know
> that it was used.
Use of Ogham script prior to the 4th century CE is a matter of
traditional belief, but there is no evidence of it. Hence its use is not
documentable until just before the Romans left the British Isles (406
CE), after having been there a little over four centuries. Also of note
is most ogham inscriptions are given names with patronymics, and the
Welsh inscriptions are bi-lingual, accompanied by a _Latin_ inscription.
And the fact that two characters of ogham, the 'h' and 'z' are not in
Erse (Irish Gaelic), suggesting that the ogham script/alphabet was
imported. BTW, there is an /h/ in Classical Latin, often missing in
Vulgar Latin; and some scholars think the /s/ was pronounced closer to a
lispy /z/ and is retained in easter Romance languages.
Seumas
From: Wajdi <a14h at zebra.net>
To: TY at reashelm.ce.utk.edu <TY at reashelm.ce.utk.edu>
Date: Tuesday, November 16, 1999 10:40 PM
Subject: [TY] found a language tutor site w/free download
Just found a site with free downloads of their tutoring programs in Latin,
Spanish, French, German, Italian, Arabic, Russian, Portuguese, Polish, Dutch,
Swedish, and ***Irish Gaelic***.
The url is:
for those of ya'll that are interested.
wajdi
Subject: Re: [SCA-U] dictionaries/grammars
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 19:02:57 -0500
From: Stephanie Budin <sbudin at SAS.UPENN.EDU>
Reply-To: SCA Forum for Research in Medieval and Renaissance Re-enactment
<SCA-UNIVERSITAS at LIST.UVM.EDU>
To: SCA-UNIVERSITAS at LIST.UVM.EDU
Two English-language text books are:
W.W. Kibler. _An introduction to Old French_. Modern Language
Association of America. New York. 1984.
E. Einhorn. _Old French: A Concise Handbook_. Cambridge
University Press. 1974.
Tha latter is a bit difficult to use unless you already know
either modern French or Latin or both. The former is more of a text
book, but you still need to know quite a bit of French to get through it,
insofar as he jumps right on into the readings (and you learn the grammar
along the way, without any emphasis on vocabulary). These are the only
two I've come across in English.
The main Old French dictionary is:
A.J. Greimas. _Ancien Francais_. Larousse. Paris. 1980.
It goes from Old French to Modern French, and is quite easy to
find on Bookfinder.com. Otherwise there's:
C.W. Aspland. _A Medieval French Reader_. Oxford at the
Clarendon Press. 1979.
As it says, it's a reader, but it does have a glossery at the end
which goes from Old French to English.
Bonne Chance!
Azalais
From: "Melanie Wilson" <MelanieWilson at bigfoot.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 18:48:00 -0000
Subject: [FTF] Gaelic OT
The web page:
Mel
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 14:35:58 +0100
From: Thomas Gloning <Thomas.Gloning at germanistik.uni-giessen.de>
Subject: SC - 16th century knowledge of languages & German hedgehog recipes
Diana d'Avignon said:
<< Italian, spanish and some french I can manage, but I was not able to
study German in school. >>
This is perfectly "period" (at least it would be for an English lady).
Furnivall has the following quotation about "The Ladies & men of Queen
Elizabeth's Court" from a 16th century chronicle (1577):
"And to saie how many gentlewomen and ladies there are, that beside
sound knowledge of the Gréeke and Latine toongs, are thereto no lesse
skilfull in the Spanish, Italian, and French, or in some of them, ..."
(Furnivall, Manners and Meals in Olden time, 1866, p. cxxiv).
No mention of German here!
Thomas
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2000 11:54:21 -0500 (EST)
From: Morgan Cain morgancain at earthlink.net
Subject: SC - Catalan
Lady Brighid ni Chiarain noted that there are no Catalan-English dictionaries on the Web.
True, according to the listing at http://www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/rbeard/diction3.html#catalan (although they have a Greek-Catalan one, and another that appears to be only Catalan), but if you look under "Catalan Grammars" you can pick up quite a lot
(website: http://www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/rbeard/grammars1.html#catalan)
Catalan looks like Spanish with Italian endings. When I studied in Spain I visited friends in Barcelona, who were enjoying the ability to speak their native language again after years of oppression under the Franco regime. Many street signs and billboards were in Catalan alone, or Catalan and Spanish. They also gave me a book that was, IIRC (it's not handy by), bilingual in Catalan and English. At least one of the grammar websites also contains bilingual texts.
---= Morgan
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2000 10:21:56 -0800
From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at efn.org>
Subject: Re: SC - Mediaeval cookbooks to begin with
Angie Malone wrote:
> For me, I have a very basic knowledge of any sort of history, especially
> medieval history, and as far as being able to tell old English writing from
> middle english writing(is that the right term?) I am even more clueless.
Just for an FYI then-
Old English (or Anglo-Saxon) will be barely recognizable to the layman.
The opening lines of _Beowulf_ "Hwaet! We gar-dena, in geardagum/ theod
cyninga, thrym gefrunnom/hu tha aethelingas, ellen fremedon..." (minus
the 'funny' letters of course) bear little resemblance to what we see in
the Times on our doorstep. This is what was spoken/written a millenium
ago. And honestly, I know of no (Zero, zippo, nada, zilch) cookbooks
extant in Anglo-Saxon English.
In the late 12th century was a shift (assisted by the Norman migrations,
no doubt) toward what we call Middle English (frequently abbreviated
ME). The form of ME that we are most familiar with is that used by
Master Geoffery Chaucer. Many would agree that his _Canterbury Tales_
)"Whan Aprille with its shoures sweete/ the floures hath pierced to the
roote") is much more accessible, if a bit unweildy, and an undergrad can
usually plod their way through ME with the assistance of a patient
professor and a good glossary/lexicon. Many of our primary texts are in
ME- the _Cury on Inglysch_, _Two Fifteenth Century Cookery Books_, the
misc. pages in the Harleian, etc. The recipes included in Pleyn Delit
are from the ME corpus of texts.
In the late fifteenth/early sixteenth century is another shift, assisted
by the Great Vowel Shift (ha!) and we then call it Early Modern English
(or to the layman- Tudor or Elizabethan English). Shakespearean, if you
will. And most of us can get through those texts readily, if given some
flexibility for archaic spelling.
Basic clues?
Old English/Anglo-Saxon- looks like German or Norse. Weird letters. Only
a few familiar-looking words.
Middle English- a few weird letters, a handfull of German-looking words,
quite a few French-based words. An extra 'e' on the end of words. You
can read portions of it at sight.
Early Modern English- fairly easily read, especially if you read OUT
LOUD and think 'Shakespeare'. Few funky spellings, but pretty
strightforward.
Good translations of cookbooks are pretty easy to find (_Pleyn Delit_ is
one collection with translated recipes), so don't sweat it. The really
good ones will have the original, with the translation and the
redaction.
'Lainie
From: Valoise Armstrong <varmstro at zipcon.net>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Date: Friday, March 17, 2000 9:52 AM
Subject: Re: SC - HELP!!!Online Translator from old German to New
Ras, try this site:
http://www.mediaevum.de/wb.htm
It has a Mittlelhochdeutsch (old German) to German dictionary as
well as a Latin to English that I have not tried yet.
Valoise
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 14:24:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: SC - igrounden & middle english
- --- Seton1355 at aol.com wrote:
> It must have been wonderful! Has anyone ever seen
> THE STORY OF ENGLISH? It
> was on PBS years ago. Anyway, there is a segment
> about middle english. They
> have some people reading it and it *is* very musical
> sounding.
Yes, I have not only seen it, but I video taped it
also. Have a copy of the book also. It is a very
fascinating series that explains the unique history of
our language and how it came to be so complex.
One of my favorite segments is one that explains the
influences of invaders to the language. I.e.: take
the words "husband" and "wife". Husband comes from
the ON hus bondi, meaning "householder"; wife comes
from the OE wif, meaning "wife". This tends to show
that the Norse men came without their families and
took Anglo-Saxon wives, while in England.
Then there is the interesting juxtiposition of who
were the servants and who were the masters.
Old English Old French
Cow Beef
Pig Pork
Sheep Mutton
Deer Venison
Chicken, duck, goose Poultry
So after the Norman Conquest, the English became the
servants who took care of the livestock and the
Normans became the lords who ate the livestock.
Neat, huh?
Huette
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 17:21:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: SC - question: linguistics and food
<Guenevere_Nelson-Melby at needham.k12.ma.us> wrote:
> I am looking for a book that would give me the
> history of the English
> language, along with examples of the
> latin-french-anglo saxon (English)
> words for similar items/ food.
> guenevere
The best book I could recommend is:
McCrum, Robert
The Story of English / Robert McCrum, Robert MacNeil
... [et al.] New rev. edition. New York : Penguin
Books, 1993.
ISBN 0140154051
$19.95 (paperback) from Amazon.com
Huette
Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 21:59:19 EDT
From: Morgana Abbey <morgana.abbey at juno.com>
Subject: Re: SC - igrounden & middle english
I like Heinlein's definition: English is the result of Norman soldiers
trying to get dates with Anglo-Saxon barmaids.
This is also why English nouns don't have gender. Anglo-Saxon and French
frequently clashed over the gender of the words, so it was all dropped.
Morgana
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 01:58:46 +1000
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
From: Mark Calderwood <mark-c at acay.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] pronunciations
Might I recommend for those interested a cracking book on this
subject called "The Story of English" (McCrum, Cran & MacNeil, BBC 1992),
which details the evolution of the English language and it's many variants,
including the American "reform" in the late 18th and early 19th centuries
by Noah Webster.
Giles
From: "Russell Husted" <husted at hotmail.com>
To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org
Subject: ANST - translations
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2000 01:31:46 GMT
Scribes use online sources. One of our members in the scribal community has
set up a site where scribes from the known world can find people who will
translate scrolls into the 'appropriate language'. So, if you are interested
in being on the list, here is his site:
http://translate.thibault.org/login.php3
If you can speak and translate to another language, and are willing to do
so, please register yourself on his site. All languages are needed!
mahee
From: lordxbrew at aol.comohwell (xaviar)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: learn SCOTTISH Gaelic, and Irish, and Manx
Date: 18 Jul 2000 04:24:32 GMT
What is Gaelic and who are the Gaels?
Gaelic is an english word for any of three languages which form one half of
the Celtic language family group. These three gaelic languages are
[*]Irish Gaelic (Gaeilge)
[*]Manx Gaelic (Gailck)
[*]Scottish Gaelic (Göidhlig)
These three languages are spoken in Ireland, Man and Scotland. The Gaels
are the peoples who speak these languages or did so in the past. Gaelic was
in danger of being exterminated in many of the traditional gaelic speaking
areas, but now a gaelic renaissance has slowed this trend if not yet
reversed it.
http://metalab.unc.edu/gaelic/canan.html
From: mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: learn SCOTTISH Gaelic, and Irish, and Manx
Date: 18 Jul 2000 11:17:27 -0400
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
I hestitate to involve myself in this childish squabble, but there is a
fact worth injecting into the thread.
> Gaelic is an english word for any of three languages which form one half of
> the Celtic language family group. These three gaelic languages are
>
> [*]Irish Gaelic (Gaeilge)
>
> [*]Manx Gaelic (Gailck)
>
> [*]Scottish Gaelic (Göidhlig)
In our period, there was only one Gaelic language. There were
dialectical difference from one country to another, and the Manx used a
very different spelling system than the Irish or Scottish Gaels, but it was
one language.
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord mittle at panix.com
From: mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: learn SCOTTISH Gaelic, and Irish, and Manx
Date: 19 Jul 2000 09:50:06 -0400
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
Greetings from Arval!
I had noted that there was only one Gaelic language in our period. Xaviar asked:
> Where is your information from?
General knowledge. However, you can find a discussion of the development
of the Gaelic languages in Britannica On-line's article on Celtic languages.
From: lordxbrew at aol.comohwell (xaviar)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Date: 18 Jul 2000 05:23:28 GMT
Subject: learn Welsh online
http://www.cs.brown.edu/fun/welsh/home.html
From: gunnora at realtime.net
To: gc_rhyl at another.com
Cc: stefan at texas.net
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 08:39:59 -600
Subject: Re: transaltion
>hi my name is Gareth and i was wondering if you could
>translate the phrase "we will rock you" int latin for me
Hello, Gareth.
No, I can't translate the phrase. Please recall that the use of "rock" as a
verb is EXTREMELY recent slang.
Language is an interesting thing. Did you know that every language encodes
the world-view of the people who spoke that language? That speakers of different languages not only think differently but see and understand the world differently?
Latin encodes a world-view of the Classical and Medieval worlds, and its vocabulary and slang reflect that time, not the modern day. (For more on this topic, see:
Hill, Jane. "Language, culture and world view". In F. Newman, ed. Linguistics:
The Cambridge Survey Vol IV. Cambridge University Press. 1988. pp 14-36.)
If you want to rephrase this into the type of English sentence that a grammar
teacher would have approved of, then it would be much easier to translate.
::GUNNORA::
To: <spca-wascaerfrig at yahoogroups.com>
From: "Paul D. Buell" <pbuell at seanet.com>
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 14:29:56 -0700
Subject: Re: [spca-wascaerfrig] Asdsdorted answers...
Yep. The Latin teacher (former) in me comes out on occasions.... One of the
phrases I also use too much and forget my audience is lai chao er ru gong,
"come to court and bear tribute," used whenever someone expects me to get
down on all fours when I have no intention of doing so. My family has,
however, gotten use to bingjiling (frozen whatever) for ice-cream, xigua
(western melon) for water melon, goupi (dog fart), for bull shit, or paimapi
(patting the horse's fart) for kissing arse. I guess we are a special
linguistic group on our own. And my favorite expressions are the Kazakh: it
uredi, karawan koshedi, "a dog barks, the caravan moves on," and the
Mongolian: yavsan noxoi yas barikh!, "the dog that goes [out for it] gets
the bone." No wonder I am, sob, misunderstood.... Paul
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gorgeous Muiredach" <muiredach at bmee.net>
To: <spca-wascaerfrig at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 2:14 PM
Subject: Re: [spca-wascaerfrig] Asdsdorted answers...
> >Or is
> >that somewhat what "De gustibus non est disputandum." translates to?
>
> Des gouts, on ne discute pas.
>
> Oh, sorry, French likely doesn't help you here ;-)
>
> "Can't argue tastes", would be a fairly literal translation :-)
>
> Gorgeous Muiredach the Odd
> Clan of Odds
> Shire of Forth Castle
> Meridies
> mka
> Nicolas Steenhout
To: SPCA <spca-wascaerfrig at yahoogroups.com>
From: Marilyn Traber <margali at 99main.com>
Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2002 10:42:22 -0400
Subject: [spca-wascaerfrig] [Fwd: Publication announcement (J. Blau)]
And another that might be useful.
margali
From: "Matthew S. Gordon" <mem-edit at mail.h-net.msu.edu>
Subject: Publication announcement (J. Blau)
To: H-MIDEAST-MEDIEVAL at H-NET.MSU.EDU
From: Yohanan Friedmann
Date: 09-06-02
msyfried at mscc.huji.ac.il
The Hebrew University of Jerusalem
The Institute of Asian and African Studies
The Max Schloessinger Memorial Foundation
is pleased to announce the publication of
"A Handbook of Early Middle Arabic" (260 pp.)
by Joshua Blau
In the present "Handbook of Early Middle Arabic", Professor
Joshua Blau of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, the undisputed
dean
of the study of Middle Arabic, presents a reliable and up-to-date
survey, comprehensive yet concise, of the whole field.
The Handbook contains a grammatical outline of Middle Arabic
structure, annotated examples of the main Middle Arabic varieties and
a glossary of all words occurring in the book.
An important feature of the book is the variety of texts
presented. These cover (a) Muslim, (b) Christian and (c) Jewish
Middle Arabic, each represented by typical or noteworthy examples,
some of them published here for the first time. Particularly
significant are the Jewish texts, Rabbanite and Karaite, which
have been
transmitted in different orthographical modes. Standard Judaeo-Arabic
orthography is represented by samples from Saadia Gaon, Qirqisani and
David b. Abraham al-Fasi. Linguistically more revealing are
Judaeo-Arabic writings in the earlier phonetic orthography; these are
exemplified in the Handbook by selected texts on papyrus,
by specimens of a translation of Halakhot Pesuqot and a
translation of
the Biblical book of Proverbs.
In the Appendix, two examples of vocalized Middle Arabic are
given: one written in Coptic characters, the other a Judaeo-Arabic
letter from the Cairo Geniza.
Professor Blau's "Handbook" will enable all Arabists to gain
immediate access to the world of Middle Arabic, guided in their
journey
by the leading authority in the field. On the one hand, scholars
familiar only with the classical, literary tongue will be able to see
in what directions the language subsequently developed; on the other
hand, Arabic dialectologists will be afforded a valuable glimpse into
the history of modern colloquial forms. The "Handbook..." will thus be a
valuable tool for all who are concerned with the history of the
Arabic tongue.
--------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------
ORDER FORM
The price of the volume is $47.00. Postage and handling: $2.00
for the first volume; $1.00 for each additional volume. Individual
members of the association "From Jahiliyya to Islam" pay $33 + $2.00
(members' price is valid for direct sales only, not through
booksellers). Cheques payable to the Schloessinger Memorial Foundation
should be sent to the Director of Publications, The Max
Schloessinger Memorial Foundation, Institute of Asian and African Studies,
The Hebrew University, Jerusalem 91905, Israel. Please note that we
cannot accept Eurocheques or credit cards, but personal and
institutional cheques in your currency are acceptable. Inquiries:
E-mail:
msjsai at pluto.mscc.huji.ac.il / Fax: +972-2-588-3658
Please send _______ copies of A Handbook of Early Middle Arabic
Name: _______________________________________________________________
Address:
____________________________________________________________ _
________________________________________________________
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerusalem Studies in Arabic and Islam
The Max Schloessinger Memorial Foundation
The Hebrew University of Jerusalem
Jerusalem 91905, Israel
Fax: +972-2-588-3658
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 01:47:07 -0500
Subject: [Sca-cooks] For the Italian scholars amongst us
A 1611 Italian/English dictionary, with a section on grammar:
http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/florio/
Brighid ni Chiarain *** mka Robin Carroll-Mann
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 10:32:32 -0800 (PST)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:[Sca-cooks] Lamb (was Re: lent, wine, indulgences, de
Nola)
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
According to "The Story of English", this
relationship between Anglo-Saxon and Norman words
shows the class distinctions after the conquest.
All the AS words [sheep, cow, pig, deer] show
that the Saxons were the caretakers of the
animals.
All the Norman words [mutton, beef, pork, venison]
show that the Normans were the eaters of the
animals.
Huette
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2004 00:44:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Names of foods in other languages
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
--- Solveig <nostrand at acm.org> wrote:
> Greetings from Solveig!
>
>> This is the best place for buying _any_ foreign
>> language dictionary:
>>
>> They are in Cambridge Massachusetts.
>
> Shoenhof's is a fun store, but their language selection is much more limited
> than you suggest and is heavily weighted in the direction of only a small
> handful of languages.
Maybe _in_ their store, but their catalog and
website offer hundreds and hundreds of
dictionaries, including many Medieval English,
French, German and Spanish dictionaries.
I have not ordered from them for my own personal
use, but several libraries that I have worked for
have been regular customers of them and I have
ordered for them many different dictionaries in
sometimes rather obscure languages. They have
always filled the orders in a reasonable time
period which suggests to me that they have a
warehouse filled with these dictionaries. I
suspect that they do better business from
catalog sales and website orders than they do
from their actual store, which may be why their
store is limited but their catalog isn't. I
wouldn't have recommended them if I hadn't had
experience with them.
Huette
Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2005 22:39:23 -0400
From: Robin <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Cooking fats in period England
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Daniel Myers wrote:
> Greg Lindahl's site seems to be down, so I can't check Cottgrave's
> dictionary. (I hope it's just temporary)
>
> - Doc
Do you know about the historic French dictionaries here?
http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/efts/ARTFL/projects/dicos/
--
Brighid ni Chiarain
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom
Date: Mon, 22 May 2006 17:18:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] A few more words on lambs
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
--- Patrick Levesque <petruvoda at videotron.ca> wrote:
> Actually, in French, Ox and Beef both translate as 'Boeuf' - there is no
> differentiation between the two terms. Same thing goes for Calf and
> Veal, which are 'Veau'.
This reminds me of the PBS show called, "The Story of English", which pointed
out some interesting facts about the origins of the English language.
Beef is from the French/Norman
Cow is from the Anglo/Saxon
Mutton is from the French/Norman
Sheep is from the Anglo/Saxon
Pork is from the French/Norman
Pig is from the Anglo/Saxon
Venison is from French/Norman
Deer is from Anglo/Saxon
According to the show, this proved that the Normans were the conquerors and
therefore the eaters of the beasts, while the Anglo-Saxons became the caretakers
and cooks of the beasts...
Huette
From: Russel Polk <russelpolk at sbcglobal.net>
Date: August 16, 2006 11:52:53 AM CDT
To: Barony of Bryn Gwlad <bryn-gwlad at ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Bryn-gwlad] The problems of Welsh translation
LONDON (Reuters) - Council officials in Wales were left red-faced after discovering cyclists were being confused by a road sign telling them they had a bladder problem.
Officials had translated the command "cyclists dismount" from English into Welsh for the sign between Penarth and the capital Cardiff.
However, the result had been the baffling phrase: "Llid y bledren dymchwelyd" which roughly translates as "bladder inflammation overturn".
"The root of the problem was seeking an online translation and that's where it went wrong," a council spokesman said on Wednesday. "Unfortunately on this occasion we ended up with the problem."
All signs in Wales must be written in both the local language as well as English.
"The order in which the words have been placed means the sentence makes no sense whatsoever," Welsh-language expert Owain Sgiv told the South Wales Echo newspaper.
"It certainly does not mean anything like cyclists dismount."
The council spokesman said the sign was being replaced.
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 14:02:00 -0500
From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>
Subject: [SCA-AS] Middle English Compendium available online FREE....
To: sca-librarians at fiedlerfamily.net, Arts and Sciences in the SCA
<artssciences at lists.gallowglass.org>
(Getting this from one of our former Kings via LiveJournal is unexpected
but lovely)
QUOTE:
How geeky is it that this news has me thrilled?
The University of Michigan announces that under new arrangements worked
out between the University Press and the University Library, all components
of the online "Middle English Compendium," including the online version
of the Middle English Dictionary, are now freely accessible without fee,
password, or any other impediment to access:
<http://ets.umdl.umich.edu/m/mec>;
The MED has hitherto been available only on a subscription or
password-protected basis, till the Press recouped its substantial
contribution to the original conversion costs. This has now been
accomplished, and we are grateful for their agreement that the time has
come to liberate it.
It was always our hope and intention to open the MED when we could,
both in the general interest of public access (to which as a public university
library we are dedicated), and with the expectation that open access
will facilitate eventual interlinking amongst sibling dictionaries and
between MED and other projects (e.g. online editions, which are now free
to link lexical lookups to the appropriate MED entry).
The official press release is here:
http://www.ns.umich.edu/htdocs/releases/story.php?id=3125
--
-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 23:05:13 -0300
From: Suey <lordhunt at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pie in a Pipkin
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
"Mairi Ceilidh" wrote:
> Speaking of your dictionaries. . .which ones you have found most
> useful, especially for . . . Catalan translations?
I only use Gran Diccionari de la Llengua Catalana which is on line:
www.grec.net/home/cel/dicc.htm Unfortunately it is only in Catalan but I
find it the most reliable.
Suey
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 01:16:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] waffles/holhippen
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
--- Terry Decker <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> I also use a fairly expensive Cassell's dictionary that gives a lot
> of usage information.
> I'm still looking for some Middle German dictionaries so I can be a
> little more accurate.
> Bear
I use Cassell's also. It is one of the best dictionaries around.
As for your Middle German dictionary, you may find one at
They are the best place to buy foreign language dictionaries. They
have tons and they usually sell to libraries and universities.
Huette
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 08:34:18 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] waffles/holhippen
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
>> I also use a fairly expensive
>> Cassell's dictionary that gives a lot of usage information. I'm still
>> looking for some Middle German dictionaries so I can be a little more
>> accurate.
>
> Which edition is that, and how expensive? I've been using the Harper
> Collins unabridged German dictionary, checked out from the library,
> but want to get a good dictionary of my own.
I use the Cassell's German-English English-German Dictionary that was
revised by Harold T. Betteridge. It costs about $40 new. I bought mine
used for about $10. Over the years, I've found Cassell and Langenscheidt to
produce superior foreign language dictionaries.
Bear
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2007 15:51:28 -0500
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd at gate.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] waffles/holhippen
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Was written:
<<< I use the Cassell's German-English English-German Dictionary that was
revised by Harold T. Betteridge. It costs about $40 new. I bought mine
used for about $10. Over the years, I've found Cassell and Langenscheidt to
produce superior foreign language dictionaries. >>>
I've got a Bantam New College German and English as well as Cassell's
German, French and Spanish-English respectively and a couple of
Langenscheidt French pocket sized. My English-Breton Dictionary is
Mouladuriou Hor Yezh which I assume is a small press. My Portuguese-English
is from Pocket Books. My Greek-English is from David McKay Company, Inc.
Hope this helps in picking.
Daniel
From: Lily Rose Sinclaire <lilyrose.sinclaire at gmail.com>
Date: June 25, 2007 10:57:50 PM CDT
To: Barony of Bryn Gwlad <bryn-gwlad at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Bryn-gwlad] interesting group
Here's a timeline - it illustrates the various influences on the English language. Pretty colors too.
http://www.danshort.com/ie/timeline.htm
Lily
From: "Eule" <eule at ecpi.com>
Date: February 25, 2008 5:05:12 PM CST
To: "'Barony of Bryn Gwlad'" <bryn-gwlad at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Bryn-gwlad] WHAT DOES THIS MEAN IN ENGLISH
On Mon, 25 Feb 2008, Eule <eule at ecpi.com> wrote:
<<<<
> after looking it up on my favorite latin to english translator
WANT.
GIVE.
Danihel "EPIC FAIL" Lindum
--
Tim McDaniel, tmcd at panix.com >>>>
http://www.translation-guide.com/free_online_translators.php?from=Englis
h&to=Latin
http://www.translation-guide.com/free_online_translators.php?from=Latin&;
to=English
It swings both ways too, btw...
;-)
Eule/Steve
Unus sed Leo
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2008 13:07:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Daniel Myers <edouard_halidai at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period Cookbooks and Period to modern
glosseries
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
--- jwills47933 at aol.com wrote:
> I was wondering were would be a good sources for
> period cookbooks and Period to modern glosseries.? I
> very much want to get my medieval (period) culinary
> show going as it were.
To add to the previously posted lists of links:
I have a bunch of links to various primary and
secondary online sources (all free) at
http://www.medievalcookery.com/etexts.shtm
I've also got a small online glossary of Middle
English cooking terms at
http://www.medievalcookery.com/dictionary/dictionary.shtm
On a related note, Greg Lindahl has copies of
Cotgrave's 1611 French-English dictionary and Florio's
1611 Italian-English dictionary.
http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/cotgrave/
http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/florio/
- Doc
From: "sarwer1 at gmail.com" <sarwer1 at gmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Arabic Language Learning System
Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 08:52:46 -0800 (PST)
This is my first participation in this site. It is my pleasure to help
those who wish to learn Arabic. I know a specialized site in teaching
Arabic language for non-Arabs where you can learn Arabic characters
free and much more.
www.Thegreengate.net
http://thegreengate.net/site/index.php?option=com_content&;task=view&id=132&Itemid=221&lang=English
Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 13:42:00 -0400
From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" <audreybmorin at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Translations
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
> It's going to be a long day and a night
> before they come up with an English-to-French computerized translation
> system that will make the latter happy. As bilingual comedian Eddie
> Izzard says, "I like the French, but they can be so French!"
It's got nothing to do with French. It's true of any language. French
is much closer to English than we tend to think (partly because a lot
of French word were integrated into the English language after 1066,
and partly, I think, because they evolved close to each other for
millenia) than, say, Chinese... I'm a translator by trade. None of us
working in the field are worried about computers taking our jobs, for
this very reason. Language is simply too... human... or irrational...
to be successully translated by machines, unless you confine
yourselves to very narrow fields (for example, there are successful
automatic translation tools for weather reports).
Of course, it's much worse when you're trying to translate things that
date back a couple of centuries, when, more often than not, the
grammar/vocabulary wasn't fixed yet and varied from writer to writer
and region to region. And modern tools can't be applied to them
because of those same variations.
Even when it's a human doing the work, it's sometimes not much better
because that person can be versed, for example, in the language of the
time but know nothing about cooking, so it comes out all wrong. We've
all read some of those translations that we don't want to use because
we know they're full of inaccuracies.
As for the present debate, I think if someone is posting a recipe in
another language, if they talk about the general meaning, it's great!
I don't expect a full translation, but if they're posting on the list
asking a question about something, they'll get more useful answers if
they make sure everybody can understand. If they post it just because
they want to share, then people will do as they do with any other
thing that comes on the list: decide if it's pertinent for them, then
keep it or delete it!
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 16:59:54 -0400
From: "Sam Wallace" <sam_wallace at hotmail.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Language Resource
To: <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
I was working on an English document and went looking for a definition. I
found the following resource and thought it might be of use to others on
this list:
Dictionary of Obsolete and Provincial English by Thomas Wright
Vol 1 (A-F)
http://books.google.com/books?id=-cQRAAAAIAAJ
Vol 2 (G-Z)
http://books.google.com/books?id=WhiZJCZQtoMC
Guillaume
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