apprentices-msg - 1/18/02 Comments on medieval and SCA apprentices. NOTE: See also the files: squires-msg, fealty-msg, fealty-art, teaching-msg, occupations-msg, merchanting-msg, guilds-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with seperate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the orignator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous mark.s.harris@motorola.com stefan@florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Subject: Apprentice/protege From: Mark Wallace To: Ansteorra Digest Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 22:23:10 -0600 Master William Blackfox sends greetings: Here's my 2 cents on the matter of being a protege or an apprentice. I was both at the same time under HG Willow for several years. I was a high-profile figure in Ansteorra back then and I'm not sure that my green cord was all that much help. However, my consultations with and the advice that I got from Duchess Willow prepared my mind for the attitudes best taken by a peerage cnadidate. I know that there are members of each order who did not attach themselves to a peer before receiving the accolade. I would simply council that there are certain legitimate advantages to becoming an apprentice or a protege in the same way that being a squire has its advantages. Master William Blackfox From: njones@ix.netcom.com Date: Mon, 03 Mar 1997 23:18:15 -0600 To: ansteorra@eden.com Subject: Re: Apprentice/protege Master William Blackfox wrote: > I know that there are members of each order who did not attach themselves > to a peer before receiving the accolade. I would simply council that there > are certain legitimate advantages to becoming an apprentice or a protege in > the same way that being a squire has its advantages. Hmm...Having just recently become apprenticed to Mistress Meadhbh, the subject of benefits to apprentiship have been much on my mind. When I do A$S, I do it because I enjoy the research and the construction of the project. And, because most often I do food items, I do projects because I think they will taste good and want to share them with my friends. I entered in to a formal apprentiship with Meadhbh, not to advance my "career" in the SCA, but because I am at heart a lazy person. *grin* Left to my own devices, I come up with nifty, creative project ideas... and then let them drift in to the pile of future projects that I never get around to. I love and respect her, we work well together, and she encourages me to follow through on my ideas. But most especially, I entered into an apprentiship because I have learned over the course of my life, that I do well with a mentor. I have a mentor to advise me in academics, one to advise me in my life path, and Meadhbh to kick me in the butt if I don't get around to doing the neat projects that I keep coming up with! *grins* Gio Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 02:26:26 -0500 To: ansteorra@eden.com From: gunnora@bga.com (Gunnora Hallakarva) Subject: Perrs and Students Revisited Pug asked: >I've noticed as of late that in several cases people have made >"announcements" of squires and apprentices. I assume it happens with >proteges as well....why are they actually announcing this? Is there a >benefit of doing this? Is there a benefit to either person when making if >official that they are teacher and student instead of leaving it an >informal process? Are peers made that are not students to someone else? Heilsa, Pug! I pick a gathering of my brothers and sisters of the Laurel to announce my new apprentices. The reason I do this publicly is that I want my peers to be aware of the apprentice so that they will (1) offer them assistance in the arts as needed (2) pay attention to those apprentices who are actively striving for recognition in the arts and rarely (3) know whose apprentice this is if the apprentice gets in hot water, so that they can come to me to complain of their behaviour if necessary. The announcement makes the advent of the student-teacher relationship a bit more exciting for the apprentice, and most apprentices I've spoken with feel that they are being honored by being accepted into that relationship. An apprenticeship is a closer relationship than that between teacher and student, usually. I'll teach anyone anything I know... all you have to do is ask. But someone who will be working intensively not only to learn artistic techniques, but also research and documentation skills, display and presentation skills, the "noble arts", and who look to me to help them achieve personal growth and maturity as well is more than just a student... they have to be a friend by that time. I offer an oath to the apprentice that I will both teach them and learn from them. In effect, they are becoming members of my household for the duration of the apprenticeship. And most certainly you don't have to be an apprentice to be a Laurel, a protege to be a Pelican, nor a squire to be a knight. I was never an apprentice, nor were many, many others. If you look at the belt I give my apprentices, it is indeed green in token of the Laurel wreath. But mine also have a stripe of squire-belt-red and protege-sash-gold woven in, because as my sig file below says, I tell my apprentices: "I will not teach you how to win the Honor Leaf crown (i.e., the Laurel) but rather to have the nature and bearing of a Peer." I am not coaching my apprentices on how to get a Laurel. In fact, if that is all a person is after, I wouldn't take them as an apprentice in the first place. So what does a Laurel get out of taking apprentices? I can't answer for others, but for me, I love to teach (I'd be doing it even if I had NO awards). And I love to learn. I like having apprentices because they keep me fired up and motivated. I have to stay on my toes and keep growing myself, and it is a poor apprenticeship that does not teach something to both the apprentice and the Laurel alike. I never want to be caught "resting on my Laurels" and so I try to keep cranking out master-level art projects (although right now I'm not sure how I'm going to top the Scythian bowcase and the carved "ivory" box...) Gunnora Hallakarva Herskerinde Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 11:46:11 -0500 To: ansteorra@eden.com From: Dieterich Subject: Re: Peers and students, my opinions.. Pug, I agree with the majority of what you have to say on this subject but I think you might be overlooking a few aspects of what a Peer can do for you in these types of relationships. When the Laurels discuss your work in their circle (as I'm sure they will), whose resposibility will it be to bring back their helpful criticism? Whose resposibility is it to tell you when you're doing well? Although you may already be getting feedback, I find that it's exponentially more productive if someone is specifically designated for this job. Also, you can use your teacher as a springboard into the other arts. You pointed out that although Laurels may be expert in their chosen field, they may have limited or no knowledge in another but I can assure you that they *know* someone who is. For instance, Squire Xs knight, Sir Q, is the polearm guru on high... but his sword and shield style may not be as good as it could be. Sir Q goes into the belted circle and says: "OK, which of you guys wants to help me out... my squire wants to learn how to use sword and shield." I've seen your postings here and I am certain that you will want to do something else someday on top of your brewing and vinting... perhaps cooping, vinegar distillation, cullinary arts... who knows. And when you do, a peer- *your* peer- is a great place to start. Just a few thoughts, Dieterich Subject: ANST - Experiences as an apprentice Date: Thu, 11 Jun 98 23:17:36 MST From: "Rollie W. Reid" To: "Ansteorran List" My experience as an apprentice is a little different than most. I spent some time as an apprentice in the medieval sense(at least nearly). I worked with Peter of the Golden Isles(Max) everyday for over a year. It started while I was unemployed and led to my own armor business. I worked in his shop and made armor which he sold. I thought of myself as an apprentice, but was careful never to call myself one, because Peter was not a Laurel. I never got the chance to work daily with Master Peter, because he was elevated just before leaving the kingdom, and by then I had my own shop. Though I was not officially his apprentice, he was my master. When I would see him at Pennsic, he would critique my armor, and his comments were always helpful to me. One year at Pennsic I visited him one evening at his booth, and he was stringing medallions on various colors of cord. I do not remember the conversation, but suddenly he pulled out his roll of green cord, cut off a length, tied it around my waist and said, "There, now you have a green belt to show that your an apprentice." So, I was an apprentice, even though I only saw my Laurel once a year. Most of what I learned from my Laurel, I learned before he was a Laurel, and the improvement that I made from the time he was made a Laurel and moved out of kingdom to the time I was made a Laurel was done on my own, building on the foundation he gave me. I consider the time I worked with him to be my apprenticeship, the years that followed were my journeyman years, until I was made a Laurel, though to misquote another Laurel armorer, "When I look at the period armorers I have trouble using the words master and armorer next to each other." Conor Laurel Armorer From: jenne@fiedlerfamily.net Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 20:11:08 -0400 (EDT) To: Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Apprenticing Again > Just remember that if you don't get apprenticed to a Laurel it might > be harder to get your Laurel. I know more than one Laurel who was in > the SCA for years and years and doing Laurel stuff for years and years > before anyone noticed that s/he *wasn't* already a Laurel! By being an > apprentice, you have been formally recognized by the system. An observation from someone who isn't a peer or an apprentice or protege, for blatant reasons. In some places, being beholden to a Peer teacher can also limit your opportunities: - in some areas, other peers seem to feel the need to get your Peer's permission to teach you or work with you. - in some places, people will hold your peer responsible for 'controlling' your behavior-- sometimes a peer will be asked to sponsor someone as a 're-education case'. - if people need the recommendation of a Peer teacher in order to consider you, think about how much power that person will have over you if your relationship goes sour. -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 16:45:04 -0800 From: "Laura C. Minnick" To: sca-cooks@ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Proteges Belts "Craig Jones." wrote: > Are there many cases of apprentices/proteges "markers" in things other > than a belt. Such as a hat/pouch/sword/other item with your > mistress/masters device upon it? Or just a favor. Or nothing. Taking an SAP is frequently done in public, and sartorial splendor is not usually part of the ceremony. ;-) > Also, are there many cases of apprentice/master (I doubt that this > would work well for proteges) relationships that are solely long > distance either because of the remote locale of the student or > teacher, or because of the obscure nature of the specialization of the > subject that is being studied? I wouldn't say 'solely', but there are some cases, yes. My #1 student lives 300 miles away, fortunately in the same area where James lives. #2 student lives oh, 5, maybe 7 miles south. Whom do I see more often? You guessed it. But I work with both of them via e-mail, some by phone. It really does depend on the nature of what the teaching/learning is about. It is tough to teach someone to throw a blow via e-mail. But I can send a list of possible sources, and explain some techniques on-line. And most of all, it depends upon the relationship between the two. Some people work out just fine long distance. Some don't. And quite frankly, having a Relationship (capital R) is very difficult long-distance, and it can require the same amount of energy and committment- if you don't think you could deal with an SO far away, there is a good chance that it would be hand to have a Master far away. And Drake? Asking thoughtful questions is not evil. It is in fact quite wise. :-) 'Lainie whose SO got in the van this morning to drive 300 miles south... life bites and I'm tired of the communting thing, but he's worth it... (I just wish we didn't have to!) From: Bronwynmgn@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 19:48:26 EST Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Proteges Belts To: sca-cooks@ansteorra.org craig.jones@airservices.gov.au writes: > Are there many cases of apprentices/proteges "markers" in things other > than a belt. Such as a hat/pouch/sword/other item with your > mistress/masters device upon it? My husband carries a small silver flower with a garnet set in it on a tablet woven strip as a favor from his Laurel (Mistress Isabella of York). He also has a belt from the man he serves as senior man-at-arms, and for times when that belt is not appropriate, a small leather loop with the lord's arms to hang on the appropriate belt. A friend of mine in An Tir who is a Pelican gives a sleeve garter (which is only partially yellow) to his proteges. Brangwayna Morgan Edited by Mark S. Harris apprentices-msg 5