tent-fabrics-msg - 8/26/10

Fabrics and treatments to use in tents.

NOTE: See also the files: p-tents-msg, pavilions-msg, tent-floors-msg, tent-sources-msg, tent-making-msg, tent-care-msg, tent-painting-msg.

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From: lcatlett at milton.u.washington.edu (Lynn Catlett)
Date: 16 Apr 91 15:48:17 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

Greetings, all, and a small contribution to the pavillion discussion.  We made
ours of a heavy oxfordcloth-like material from the rem table.  The three 
sections (white/grey/white) are french seamed and the whole is hung on 10'
center poles (hems are roped).  The sewing was awkward but not difficult 
with two people cooperating.  The worst part--endless and expensive--was 
waterproofing the dumb thing.  It's 12' x 15' and contains something over
three gallons of Thompson's.  egad.  However, it's a pleasure to play in,
so I must say it was worth it.  It's also possible for one person to pitch it,
'though two make quick work.  It's very light and "handy."  

Good luck with your project!

Lin Yin Ho
Ming Ho Tang
An Tir


From: kinsey at nas.nasa.gov (Cassandra L. Kinsey)
Date: 15 Apr 91 21:32:05 GMT
Organization: Numerical Aerodynamic Simulation Facility NASA

Dear Gentlefolk,

Depending how much time you are willing to spend on your pavilion, we
were able to make our day pavilion for under $200.  We bought two large
painters tarps and sewed them together, the tarps alone were under $70.
Our pavilion has a floor space of 11.5' x 14', between two 6' poles on
the ends, with 8' center poles (lots of room in my opinion.)  However, we
still have to take off the Fuller-O'Brian logo's on the side :).  I think,
all together we have spent at least 40 man hours on this pavilion.

Euriol of Lothian
(mka Cassandra Kinsey, kinsey at nas.nasa.gov)


From: djheydt at garnet.berkeley.edu
Date: 21 Apr 91 04:28:50 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

In article <47483 at ut-emx.uucp> awbm at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Allison Welch) writes:

>was thinking of using shade cloth (not as fancy as the fabric some use) which
>is available at h rdware stores, intended for shading plants.

If by "shade cloth" you mean what I think you mean--a sort of 
homespun loosely-woven out of millimeter-wide strips of plastic--
I don't suggest it.  Wouldn't that fall apart almost at once under
use?  Your poles and ropes and the wind and gravity and cosmic stuff
like that are all going to be pulling at it in different directions
and I don't think it's tough enough to hold up.

The traditional goat hair or wool that others on this group have
described will work very well because they're not only tough but
flexible.  Other things we use include canvas of various weights
and nylon ripstop.  My household has two Viking ship-shelters
made (by a professional khayyam who builds hang-gliders in the
outside world) of heavy waterproofed canvas--these serve as bedrooms.
We also have a sunshade/kitchen/great hall of nylon ripstop tarps
sewn together, which are beginning to show that "ripstop" only goes
so far, and if we have to go on mending and re-grommeting it much
longer we're going to get the same khayyam to replace it.

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin                Dorothy J. Heydt
Province of the Mists                   djheydt at garnet.berkeley.edu
Principality of the Mists               University of California,
Kingdom of the West                     Berkeley


From: dlc at hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Dennis Clark)
Date: 19 Apr 91 22:32:03 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA

/ lcatlett at milton.u.washington.edu (Lynn Catlett) /  writes:

>Greetings, all, and a small contribution to the pavilion discussion.  We made
>ours of a heavy oxfordcloth-like material from the rem table.  The three 
>sections (white/grey/white) are french seamed and the whole is hung on 10'
>center poles (hems are roped).  The sewing was awkward but not difficult 
>with two people cooperating.  The worst part--endless and expensive--was 
>waterproofing the dumb thing.  It's 12' x 15' and contains something over
>three gallons of Thompson's.  egad.  However, it's a pleasure to play in,

  Ooph!  I tried to use Thompson's and it did not work very well, one that is
somewhat better (though still $12 per gallon) is something called CanVac that
your local tent/awning maker will have in stock, it smells better and works
much better on the canvas.

>so I must say it was worth it.  It's also possible for one person to pitch it,
>'though two make quick work.  It's very light and "handy."  
>
>Good luck with your project!
>
>Lin Yin Ho
>Ming Ho Tang
>An Tir
>----------

  More on fabric.  I have used 12 oz canvas that has an off-white color and is
untreated and without sizing.  It came in 72" widths for $8.50 per yard.  
Rather expensive, and lots of time invested in sewing.  I also sewed the guy
ropes into the seams of the canvas, the stress is much better distributed in
that way.

Kevin MacKinnon - Unser Hafen - Outlands


From: trifid at agora.rain.com (Roadster Racewerks)
Date: 21 Apr 91 17:48:54 GMT
Organization: Open Communications Forum

Any heavy, closely woven cloth similar to canvas should work, provided it is
made of fairly tough thread (pull a piece of thread off the end of the bolt and tug until it breaks!) should serve. Denim, canvas, twill, etc. should work (if you never put them away damp...they might rot in storage) often without use of waterproofing. I'm seriously considering making my roof of a VERY heavy
brocade bedspread. I'm almost convinced it will prove waterproof, and may take
it with me and use it as a pup tent this summer, as a "test run"...

Elaine NicMaoilan
trifid at agora.rain.com


From: haslock at rust.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Tent Size at Pennsic - Again
Date: 1 Jun 1993 19:20:51 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation - DECwest Engineering

Greetings from Fiacha,

Sebastian asks about expensive sailcloth.

When I went shopping for material for my pavilion I found sailcloth in a
local fabric store. It cost about $3.50 a yard for 60" material and was
available in a variety of colors. I do not recall the exact fiber content
but it was close to 50/50 polyester/cotton.

Neither sails nor pavilions need to be made from fabric that would make 
a mail carriers sack look flimsy. Sails for light airs might weigh an ounce
per square yard.

Sailcloth is simply tightly woven twill so that it is both flexible and
resistant to the wind.

Denim, as used for making jeans, is shorthand for "sailcloth d'Nimes". Denim
would probably be an expensive alternative form which to make a pavilion.

Another point to consider. Grimm's tents are made from heavy canvas which is
not waterproofed. They rely on the first soaking to swell and mat the fibers
into impermeability. Fire and fungus protection may be more of an issue.

My feeling has been that few SCA owned pavilions see enough use to justify
the expense of the heavier fabrics. My $350 pavilion has survived 7 seasons
and so has cost me $50 a year. A commercial pavilion would have to last 
more than 20 years to reduce to a similar cost.

	Fiacha


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: whheydt at pbhya.PacBell.COM (Wilson Heydt)
Subject: Re: Tent Size at Pennsic - Again
Organization: Pacific * Bell, San Ramon, CA
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1993 22:47:24 GMT

In article <1uga6j$gif at usenet.pa.dec.com> haslock at rust.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock) writes:
>Sebastian asks about expensive sailcloth.
>
>When I went shopping for material for my pavilion I found sailcloth in a
>local fabric store. It cost about $3.50 a yard for 60" material and was
>available in a variety of colors. I do not recall the exact fiber content
>but it was close to 50/50 polyester/cotton.

The reference is probably to what modern sails are made of.   I really
can't speak for current practice, but 20 years ago, the preferred
material was dacron, because of the very limited stretch to it.  I
*think* these days a favored reinforcement on larger craft is kevlar.

In any case, a true sail cloth will be woven very tightly--so as to
prevent the wind from simply passing through the sail.

Spinakers are generally made of nylon.

>Another point to consider. Grimm's tents are made from heavy canvas which is
>not waterproofed. They rely on the first soaking to swell and mat the fibers
>into impermeability. Fire and fungus protection may be more of an issue.

Dragonwing used canvases running from about 3 oz. to 10 oz.  The
canvas was treated for both water resistance and fire retardant.
Sicne the work was done for sale, the materials had to meet California
state requirements for tents.

	--Hal

        Hal Ravn, West Kingdom
        Wilson H. Heydt, Jr.,  Albany, CA 94706,  510/524-8321 (home)
-- 
Hal Heydt                    |    
Analyst, Pacific*Bell        |  If you think the system is working,
510-823-5447                 |  Ask someone who's waiting for a prompt.
whheydt at pbhya.PacBell.COM    |    


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: nusbache at epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: Tent Fabric
Organization: University of Toronto - Tent Engineering
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1993 16:30:39 GMT

In article <FFD69B90A0EA25F9 at lando.hns.com> DSKULLY at lando.hns.COM (DAWN) writes:
>Adnar Dunnigan asks:

>>What I am wondering is would 10 oz. duck canvas (100% cotton) work for a
>>period pavilion?  It is 58/60" and retails at $5.98/yd.  

In my experience 10oz canvas is quite a decent material to work with.
The Borough of Southwark Trayned Bandes kitchen and bath tent is made
of 10oz canvas, and it has held up rather well.  It is quite large --
about 15'x10' by 9' high, and while it is difficult it is not
impossible for one person to carry the bundled cloth.

10oz cotton canvas can shrink a lot.  A lot a lot. If you don't
pre-shrink the tent, you will have a lot of trouble.

It is, mind you, not a pavilion.  It is very much a tent.  I don't
relish the idea of sewing all the intricate bits of a pavilion with
such a heavy fabric.

>>Any other suggestions besides rip-stop.

There are other sorts of tent nylon, which will result in less
embarassment when you look your visitors in the eye and tell them it's
silk.  Some are coated, and are quite water-resistant; but of course
the coated nylons don't breathe worth a damn.

My primary dwelling tent is 8oz cotton twill.  Works for me.

Of course the optimum in mediaeval comfort can be achieved with a
gore-tex tent.

Silk would be a great tent fabric, but you would have to adhere to
period methods of construction, lest you find your tent shredding in
the wind.  Do not use an old parachute, though:  they are generally
nylon, and turn to napalm when they catch fire.

There are commercial tent fabrics which are pre-treated to be
water-resistant and fireproof.  If you are going to camp in the dry
parts of the country, you might want to think about something like
that.  Last time I checked, though, the stuff went for at least C$9
per metre.


>>Finally if this is good material what is the preferred method of treating
>>it for water resistance? 

A good thick canvas will swell up when it gets wet, and 10oz cloth is
thick enough to keep the rain out, except for a bit of fine mist from
a heavy rain.  Untreated 8oz cloth will let in a bit more mist.  The
mist is generally not enough to damage the contents of your tent.

The main reason to waterproof a tent is to prevent rot and
discoloration.  There are other ways to prevent rot:  making sure the
tent can dry freely in the air, for instance.  And I, for one, rather
like the battleship-grey colour of a well-used canvas tent.

Of course if you're after an upper-class effect, you might prefer to
paint your tent with something flammable like oil paint.  Cariadoc has
been known to recommend beeswax, which creates a mandatory no-smoking
zone, since it could cause a tent to behave like a candlewick.

A lot of people paint their canvas tents with something like
Thompson's Water Seal, or the much pricier stuff from camping supply
stores.  I have never heard of a controlled experiment to determine
whether it makes a difference in the field, however.

My final word:  10oz cotton good, but hard to work with.  Don't
waterproof it unless you want it to keep its colour.

Aryk Nusbacher


From: gray at ibis.cs.umass.edu (Lyle FitzWilliam)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Tent Fabric
Date: 8 Jul 1993 18:36:11 GMT
Organization: Bergental, East Kingdom

In article <1993Jul8.163039.1757 at epas.toronto.edu> nusbache at epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher) writes:
>
>[much deleted]
>
>A lot of people paint their canvas tents with something like
>Thompson's Water Seal, or the much pricier stuff from camping supply
>stores.  I have never heard of a controlled experiment to determine
>whether it makes a difference in the field, however.

While I have never header of a controlled experiment using Thompson's Water
Seal, I performed a before-and-after experiment with my own tent.  With heavy
rain (simulated using a garden hose), I got the fine mist inside the tent that
you mentioned (which, although it may not _damage_ the tent contents, is still
noticeable when you climb into the bedclothes.  After applying the Water Seal
(using a four inch paint brush and much patience), I repeated the heavy rain
application, and got no mist inside the tent.  As for breathability, the
design of the tent has vents new the peak (modified Viking ship shelter).

>My final word:  10oz cotton good, but hard to work with.  Don't
>waterproof it unless you want it to keep its colour.

Or you prefer dry bedclothes... ;-)

Lyle FitzWilliam
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lyle H. Gray                       Internet (personal): gray at cs.umass.edu
Quodata Corporation            Phone: (203) 728-6777, FAX: (203) 247-0249
--(My opinions are my own, and do not represent my employer's opinions)--


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)
Subject: Re: Tent Fabric
Organization: University of Chicago
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1993 00:25:47 GMT

"silk would be a great tent fabric, but you would have to adhere to
period methods of construction, lest you find your tent shredding in
the wind." (Aryk)

I can't remember ever having that problem. The Mark II version had a
wool/silk blend roof which eventually started to tear, but the silk
walls never gave us any trouble, nor did we have any problem with the
Mark I (half scale, used a little) which was, as I remember, all
silk. Precisely what non-period methods of construction were you
considering--duct tape?

"Of course if you're after an upper-class effect, you might prefer to
paint your tent with something flammable like oil paint.  Cariadoc
has been known to recommend beeswax, which creates a mandatory
no-smoking zone, since it could cause a tent to behave like a
candlewick." (Aryk)

Before I did the first beeswax waterproofed tent, I experimented with
waxing pieces of cloth and setting them alight. So far as I could
tell, they were no more inflammable than the same cloth unwaxed. I
know that seems surprising--perhaps it is because the amount of wax
per square foot is just not that large.

Currently, my recommendation is the same as yours--tightly woven
fabric with no additional treatment.

As to a no-smoking zone, that is not a big problem in the encampment.
So far Hossein is the only one who has persuaded me that he is
smoking a period mixture in a period fashion, and we (unfortunately)
do not see all that much of him.

David/Cariadoc


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: nusbache at epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher)
Subject: Re: Tent Fabric
Organization: University of Toronto - Tent Engineering
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1993 00:39:01 GMT

ddfr at midway.uchicago.edu writes:

>"silk would be a great tent fabric, but you would have to adhere to
>period methods of construction, lest you find your tent shredding in
>the wind." (Aryk)

>... Precisely what non-period methods of construction were you
>considering--duct tape?

If I were building a silk pavilion, I would be most worried about the
roof panels; and I would use crow's-foot mounts for the guy lines.  I
have experimented with crow's feet, and have found that they do a
great job of distributing stress.  What I would be worried about is a
tentmaker sinking grommets into the fabric -- works with canvas
(sometimes with a bit of reinforcement), but with silk ... I would
prefer the crows' feet.

A crow's foot is a mount which has each guy line anchored to the roof
at several points by means of a multifurcated mounting.

>Before I did the first beeswax waterproofed tent, I experimented with
>waxing pieces of cloth and setting them alight. So far as I could
>tell, they were no more inflammable than the same cloth unwaxed. I
>know that seems surprising--perhaps it is because the amount of wax
>per square foot is just not that large.

Good to know.

>As to a no-smoking zone, that is not a big problem in the encampment.
>So far Hossein is the only one who has persuaded me that he is
>smoking a period mixture in a period fashion, and we (unfortunately)
>do not see all that much of him.

I have, in the past, trusted Alfred Dunhill's Elizabethan Mixture,
after all it has some pseudo-Elizabethan art work on the tin ...
Actually, pure Virginia tobacco can be had from the tobacconist in
Mill Creek Mall in Erie, and from Ivan at the Continental Smoke Shop
on Murray Ave. in Pittsburgh.  Either place will also sell you pure
Latakia.

Good to hear that you'll be there this year,

Aryk


From: longo at eggo.usf.edu (Andrea Longo)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Tent Fabric
Date: 9 Jul 1993 04:59:41 GMT
Organization: University of South Florida, Department of Computer Science and Engineering

epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher) writes:
>
>A lot of people paint their canvas tents with something like
>Thompson's Water Seal, or the much pricier stuff from camping supply
>stores.  I have never heard of a controlled experiment to determine
>whether it makes a difference in the field, however.
>
I have tried Thompson's on a canvas cloak and seen it done on tents.  The
overall effect is less than desirable.  The cloak was a bad idea because it
became very stiff but was somewhat more water-resistant as long as you don't
stand out in the downpour for very long.  The tent was a *very* bad idea.

I have seen several tents done this way and all of them misted badly because
the canvas can't swell at all.  I believe all the household's tents are
treated, but I don't know what with.  The dining fly is made in two layers,
fabric over plastic tarp, probably the best option I've seen.  (I tell you,
its where *I* run when the downpour starts.)

There must be some kind of treatment avaliable, because the tents we usually
bring to events aren't that bad.  With the storms we see here, there is
usually more of a problem with water going under the tent than thru the
canopy, that isn't a problem unless there is extended heavy rain if the tent
is treated in some fashion.  (In Trimaris, you expect everything you own to
get soaked and be damp the entire event, if not from actual rain, then the
humidity.) 


From: jab2 at stl.stc.co.uk (Jennifer Ann Bray)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Tent Fabric
Date: 9 Jul 93 10:09:25
Organization: STC Technology Ltd., London Road, Harlow, UK.

On the basis of a large quantity of woolen cloth found on the Gokstad
ship (10th Century Viking Ship burial) which was either sails or tent
covering or possibly doubled up in function as both, I tried making a
viking tent with woolen cover.
It works wonderfully whilst up, no water at all gets through to the
inside, you can touch the fabric and after a night of force 7 gales
and torrential rain, it felt only slightly damp. The water seems to
wick down to ground level within the cloth. I poured gallons of
proofing solution over part of the tent and left th rest untreated
when I ran out, the treated section behaves exactly the same as the
rest, what a waste of proofing solution.
I recently attended a meeting of the medieval sress and textile
solution and heard that edward 1sts campaign tents were made out of
multiple layers of linen canvas, if wool works so well why did he
resort to linen? the stuff kept wearing out and a major expense in his
campaigns was upkeep of the tents. they were also difficult to
transport because they were so bulky with many layers of cloth
required for each tent. 
The only thing I could think of was that wool absorbs water and takes
a while to dry, but with multiple layers making up Edwards tents, I
would have thought the linen would have held water aswell. did edward
have acess to more linen and less wool or something? 
I get on fine with my wooly tent, any thoughts from you canvas campers
on why the switch to linen happened?

(incidentally I'm not a millionaire, I got the wool from a shop that
sold mill seconds and ends very cheap, cheaper than I could get any
other cloth at the time, I'll admit that was a big factor in making a
woolen tent)

jennifer
Vanaheim Vikings (not S.C.A. just passing by)


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: kreyling at lds.loral.com (Ed Kreyling 6966)
Subject: Re: Tent fabric
Organization: Loral Data Systems
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1993 19:03:36 GMT

In article <21itvt$itt at suntan.eng.usf.edu> you write:
>>
>I have tried Thompson's on a canvas cloak and seen it done on tents.  The
>overall effect is less than desirable.  The cloak was a bad idea because it
>became very stiff but was somewhat more water-resistant as long as you don't
>stand out in the downpour for very long.  The tent was a *very* bad idea.
>
>I have seen several tents done this way and all of them misted badly because
>the canvas can't swell at all.  I believe all the household's tents are
>treated, but I don't know what with.  The dining fly is made in two layers,
>fabric over plastic tarp, probably the best option I've seen.  (I tell you,
>its where *I* run when the downpour starts.)

Hi Andrea,

I hate to burst your bubble but all the household tents Master Sean and I have
treated have been treated in Thompson's Waterseal.  I must admit that I have 
never tried it on a cloak.  It does seem to stiffen the tents somewhat but so
does CAMVAC.  (Note: camvac is what Panther Primitives uses on their tents.)
Sean and I prefer Thompsons because of availablity.  I do not recomment either
solution for synthetic tents (nylon etc.).  Even at this years TMT both viking
tents and the marquee tent stayed dry.  Robert's round tent did not stay dry
because it had been treated with bleach to remove mildew and then not re-treated
with Thompson's.

Master Erik


From: haslock at rust.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Tent Fabric
Date: 9 Jul 1993 21:50:31 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation - DECwest Engineering

Greetings from Fiacha,

I agree strongly with the concept on not using any waterproofing agent for
vegetable fiber tent material.

If misting is seen to be a problem, fit the tent with a liner of light muslin.
The liner will provide an insulating air space to moderate the interior
temperature as well as absorbing the mist.

As to the switch from wool to linen for tent fabric I can offer a few
suggestions. Wool can absorb three times its weight of water, or so I have
been told. Thus a saturated wool tent is going to be very heavy and the
saturated fabric may not be able to support its own weight. Having such a tent
collapse on you in the middle of a downpour could persuade a king to find an
alternative. Waterproofing wool is either difficult or smelly. I have been
told that milk is the only viable waterproofing material for wool and it needs
to be reapplied every third soaking.

Linen, being a vegetable fiber, absorbs water into the fibers, swelling them
to produce an impenetrable fabric. The saturated fiber is stronger than the
dried fiber thus saturated tent fabric should not fail under its own weight.

Linen is also a fundamentally stronger fiber than wool. Thus linen can be
used to make larger and heavier tents than is possible with woolen fabrics.

In general, it seems to me that linen canvas is a better choice for tent fabric
in, the unpredictably wet, Western European climate. Wool is the preferred
material for nomads because they tend to operate in predictably dry climates
and tend to herd sheep for a ready supply of the raw material.

	Fiacha
	AnTir


From: palmer at cis.ohio-state.edu (sharon ann palmer)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Tent Fabric
Date: 10 Jul 1993 06:31:15 -0400
Organization: The Ohio State University Dept. of Computer and Info. Science

In article <21kp77$a09 at usenet.pa.dec.com> haslock at rust.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock) writes:

>Linen is also a fundamentally stronger fiber than wool. Thus linen can be
>used to make larger and heavier tents than is possible with woolen fabrics.

>Wool is the preferred
>material for nomads because they tend to operate in predictably dry climates
>and tend to herd sheep for a ready supply of the raw material.

I am working from memory, but I believe that at least modern, and probably
period wool tents were made from very coarse wool or goats hair.  
Since many period sheep were double coated, this would make sense. 
You comb the wool to separate the soft, fine wool to use for clothing
and the coarse, stronger wool to use for tents, rugs, sails, etc.
I expect that modern, available wool fabric probably does not
resemble the wool fabric that would have been used for a tent.

Wool does get weaker when wet, but I know that the Vikings used
wool sails.   I think that a sail would have more stress than a
tent and would certainly get wet.  

Linen is an older fiber than wool, but I it is a lot more work 
to prepare.  It also requires land and time dedicated to growing it,
while the sheep or goats were probably kept anyway for their
meat.  A linen tent might have been more expensive
than a wool tent.  At least in my time (9th cent Danish) wealthy
people wear linen or even silk and poor people wear wool.

Ranvaig
Sharon Palmer        palmer at cis.ohio-state.edu


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: kreyling at lds.loral.com (Ed Kreyling 6966)
Subject: Re: Tent fabric
Organization: Loral Data Systems
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1993 13:28:07 GMT

In article <21qf1o$njp at suntan.eng.usf.edu> longo at eggo.usf.edu (Andrea Longo) writes:
>I've heard about using Thompson's is from what I did and from Margarete
>and a few others complaining about theirs.  
>
>So how did you apply it?  That can make a lot of difference.
>
>(See, I *told* you it was a bad idea for me to make a tent... :)

Margarete's tents are nylon and Thompson's does not work well on synthetics.
I apply Thompson's (and Camvac if I'm using that) with a bug sprayer.  I 
actually got the idea from the Chirurgeons.  I went out and bought one of 
those big bug sprayers that you have to pump up.  Fill it with Thompson's and 
put up the tent.  Spray on the Thompson's until the fabric is saturated and the
liquid starts to spread away from the sprayer (flowing downhill).  This seems to
be the correct amount to really seal the tent.  The Thompson's actually soakes 
into the fabric and causes it to swell.  I pay particular attention to the seams.  Leave the tent up until it is dry.  Repeat every year or so.

This process seems to work so well that my tents seem to become the wet weather refuge for those whose tents have flooded out.

Erik.


From: haslock at rust.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Tent Fabric
Date: 13 Jul 1993 14:19:05 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation - DECwest Engineering

Greetings from Fiacha,

In response to Ranveig, I don't know enough to be able to say anything about
the effectiveness of coarse wool for coarse strong fabric, although I have my
doubts.

The suggestion that linen is an older fabric is neither true nor relevant. We
were discussing King Edwards selection of linen for tents in a country that
had known both fabric for over a thousand years. What might be relevant is the
recent introduction of the floor loom and the spinning wheel to the flemish
weavers.

Assuming that the Vikings sailed with wet sails may also be a dangerous
assumption. I do not know enough about viking sailing practices to be willing
to bet that they maintained sail under adverse conditions. I would also like
to read a detailed analysis of the sail fabric. Could you point me at a
reference work?

The more I think about it, the less sure I become. I can imagine techniques
for making hard strong woolen fabric but have no idea if they were used. I can
imagine the wool bacame a preferred raw material for luxury fabrics to the
point that coarse strong wool was more expensive than the equivalent linen.
I can imagine that a linen tent was lighter and so easier to pack and erect
than the equivalent woolen tent. I can imagine lots of things without knowing
that any of them match reality.

What I know of commercially available woolens and linens today makes me
prefer linen to wool for tents today.

	Fiacha


From: scj427 at aol.com (SCJ427)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: oilskin
Date: 22 Jul 1995 03:38:32 -0400

If you are looking for "oilcloth" for use in waterproof enclosures it is
still commercially available.  It is a cotton duck treated with thick
resinous oil.  The stuff is waterproof and seems to attract charged
particles like crazy.  The archaic stuff is great to place in entranceways
to controlled work areas to keep down dust and nasty things like
microparticles of radionuclides.

I don't know a retail supplier but it comes with a 3-M label on the rolls.
 48" and 60" rolls.  I keep threatening to sneak out with the roll ends to
make a pavilion.

Stefan MacMorrow ap Rhovannon


From: savaskan <savaskan at electriciti.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: TENT making/selling question
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 22:21:59 -0700
Organization: ElectriCiti, Inc.

Clare Ni Mhaille wrote:
<snip> 
> 1.  What weight of canvas would be best to use: 8 oz or 10 oz?  I
> understand that heavier weight canvas can pull apart once you start
> cutting into it.

I have used 10 oz with good success.

<snip>
 
> 6.  Any miscellaneous suggestions?  [This is first tent and all...]

I would look for Marine canvas that is treated for fire retardancy and 
mildew resistance.

Julianna


From: yacko at mint.net (yacko)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Flame proof tent canvas
Date: 18 Jul 1996 16:37:28 GMT
Organization: Maine InternetWorks

In article <31EBF383.79D9 at csc.com>, kate field <kfield at csc.com> says:
>        I'm looking to flame proof my tent for Pennsic.
>I've gone through the phone book under awnings, tents, and fireproofing,
>and called most of the listings, but can't find one that carries
>something to flame retard a canvas tent...does anyone have other ideas
>on where to look?

Try Campmor in Paramus NJ. Call information for a number. They have all sorts 
of stuff for treating fabric. Of course, I must mention, no tent s flame 
proof, ever. Best bet of all is to keep the flames out as much as possible. A 
flashlight isn't period, but a burning tent sticks to you rather un-nicely. 

Yacko


Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 19:33:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: ALBAN at delphi.com
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: tents (French Bell or otherwise)

In re. waterproofing tents: I have a tent I bought from, er, ah, I forget
now, but I did buy it from one of the four already mentioned. It came
untreated for fireproofing and untreated for waterproofing.
(In other words, it's cotton duck, without anything on it)

It's survived two Pennsics, so far, without one drip at all inside the
tent. And this despite the fact that small puddles form in the ceiling  
when there's a massive downpour. No drips inside. None.

Now, if you should make your own tent, you may need to waterproof
because the material you use may need it - but I don't think the
commercial tents need it all that much, if at all.

Alban


Date: Tue, 02 Jan 2001 19:48:46 -0700
From: Sue Clemenger <mooncat at in-tch.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Canvas issues (was simple pavilion)--longish

Cotton canvases come in a number of weights, and with any number of
different (chemical) treatments.  Sunforger, IIRC, is cotton canvas that
has been chemically treated to be mold and mildew resistant--very
similar to "marine finish" canvas.  You can also get this fabric with an
additional treatment (borax-based) that makes it
flame-retardant/resistant.

Some things to be aware of:
*Some states only allow certain types of fabric/tents to be shipped into
that state (I remember CA for sure, don't know about others).  If you
live in one of the restrictive states, you may be able to find ways to
get around it, though....I know that my employer had to be quite
careful.

*If you're making a tent that you don't want to leak and fall apart
right off the bat, you want fabric that's at _least_ as heavy as
good-quality sturdy denim (say, 6 oz. plus).  Also, use a decent-quality
thread--I'd recommend something with a poly or nylon core (for
strength), and a cotton exterior.  When wet, the cotton will swell, and
serve to help plug the holes in the fabric left by the sewing needle.

*The most pliable and easiest to sew would be the "natural" (untreated)
canvas, but it would also be the one most susceptible to mold, mildew,
insect problems, etc.  The more heavily treated the fabric is, the more
it shrinks--flame-retardant canvas can be darned near waterproof. 
However, this also makes it progressively harder to sew, as your machine
and needle have to work harder to "punch" through the fabric.  Make any
sense? This difficulty is, of course, pretty negligible when only sewing
through a single layer, but a big pain in the behind when sewing a hem,
or a fancy seam, etc. (think back, and remember how cranky many home
machines can be when you're trying to hem your jeans or something).  So,
yes, unless you've got a kickass, heavy-duty machine, you very well may
have -uh- "fun" trying to sew with it (maybe you could get a scrap from
someone, and try that, first?)

*As I mentioned above, these are chemical treatments, so make very sure
you're not sensitive/allergic to the chemicals _before_ you invest all
that money in the fabric or a purchased tent.  Because of job-related,
long-term exposure to exactly these things, I am now quite allergic to
anything that makes stuff fire retardant/fire resistant (common in
sleeping bags, furniture, some fabrics such as Nomex, etc), as well as
any cosmetic or cleaner or laundry additive containing Borax.  It
doesn't bother most folks, but it's something to be aware of....

--Maire, survivor of seven years as a custom tent/tipi/awning/anything
else made of fabric.....


Date: Wed, 03 Jan 2001 11:46:42 -0800
From: John LaTorre <jlatorre at midtown.net>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Canvas issues (was simple pavilion)--longish

Sue's post is a very good overview of the fabric and sewing
situation, and I have only one quibble with it.

Sue Clemenger wrote:

>  The more heavily treated the fabric is, the more
> it shrinks--flame-retardant canvas can be darned near waterproof.

In my experience, the reverse is true. The more heavily
treated the fabric is, the /less/ it shrinks. The people who
make Pyrotone and Fyrecoat (fire, water, and mildew
treatment) list their fabric as capable of up to 2%
shrinkage, and experience has proved that even that
percentage is high ... probably less than 1% in the tents
I've made over the past ten years. I don't have any figures
for Sunforger, but a look at the Panthermastersmiths
pavilions (which use this fabric almost exclusively) reveals
that they are designed to be fairly non-dimension-critical
... the fabric could shrink or stretch a fair bit without
impeding the tent's performance.

For more information on fabrics and tent-sewing, I
shamelessly recommend two pages on my web site:

http://midtown.net/dragonwing/diy.htm for general stuff
http://midtown.net/dragonwing/col9804.htm for fabrics

I'd also recommend Tanya Guptill's Medieval Pavilion
Resources, which has tons of information culled from the
Rialto, newsgroups, and other sources:

http://www.teleport.com/~tguptill/tent.html
--
John LaTorre (Johann von Drachenfels)


Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2001 14:25:41 -0600
From: "Marguerite" <marguerite at ih2000.net>
To: <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Re: Canvas issues (was simple pavilion)--longish

Just a note Sunforger still will set on fire and will not put it self out. A
good weight for canvas is 15oz.

It is thick enough that it will stop the dripping if you make the pitch
right on your roof. NO less then a 40 degree slope. On water proofed
material the slope can be less. The higher the pitch of the roof the better
results you will have.

Margeurite


Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 19:13:58 -0700
From: Sue Clemenger <mooncat at in-tch.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Canvas issues (was simple pavilion)--longish

Good point--apparently what I said didn't come through clearly enough. 
What I had in my head, at least <g>, was the knowledge that all of these
canvases start out basically the same--as untreated, plain cotton
canvas.  The stuff I worked with was, at this stage, lighter, fairly
flexible, a little rough-textured, and, oh, 38"-39" wide.  Putting it
through the process(es) that make it into Marine-Finish quality results
in a fabric about 36" wide, smoother, lighter-colored, and a little
stiffer.  Putting it through the additional step to make it flame
retardant gets you a fabric that can be 34" or less, slightly off-white
to blinding-white, relatively stiff, and fairly smooth.
So...if you buy a basic "cabin" tent (shaped like a house, pretty much),
say 9'x12', with a 5' side wall, and an 8' peak, and it's made out of
one of the less-processed fabrics, you can expect some shrinkage the
first couple of times it gets wet.  If your frame isn't adjustable, you
can end up with a high-water tent (kinda like high-water pants).  This
would be less of an issue with folks who are only using poles to hold up
their tents, obviously, but it's something to be aware of....

--Maire

John LaTorre wrote:
><snippage> 
> Sue's post is a very good overview of the fabric and sewing
> situation, and I have only one quibble with it.
> 
> Sue Clemenger wrote:
> 
> >  The more heavily treated the fabric is, the more
> > it shrinks--flame-retardant canvas can be darned near waterproof.
> 
> In my experience, the reverse is true. The more heavily
> treated the fabric is, the /less/ it shrinks.


From: Heather Hillhouse <hjhillhouse at GMAIL.COM>
Date: March 16, 2010 10:33:47 AM CDT
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: [CALONTIR] Pavillions

Hi All... I'm pondering replacing my tent-  currently a small walled wedge style, and in some of the research I've been doing, materials other than canvas have been listed.  Specifically, I found mention of a extant piece that was wool, and the person writing about it had some pretty positive things to say about wool as a tent fabric.  Has anyone around here made a wool tent?  Advantages or disadvantages?  Thoughts?

Derdriu


From: "greywlf2.excite" <greywlf2 at EXCITE.COM>
Date: March 18, 2010 10:55:24 AM CDT
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] Pavillions

Yes wool was used in period for tents. Those I've read about or talked to have all said the same thing about wool... it stretches and sags considerably when wet. I've always avoided using it for tents for that reason.

Ld Anlon GreyWolf


From: Shannon Ward <dieugarde at MCHSI.COM>
Date: March 18, 2010 12:25:46 PM CDT
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] Pavillions

Anlon GreyWolf said
<<< Yes wool was used in period for tents. Those I've read about or talked to have all said the same thing about wool... it stretches and sags considerably when wet. I've always avoided using it for tents for that reason.
 >>>

I know wool was used for Bedouin tents – a much drier climate. Was wool used for tents in any other time and place?
And while we are on the subject, what were tents made out of in Europe in the Middle Ages? I seem to remember a class given a long, long time ago that documented a silk tent.

Tatiana D.


From: Ted Eisenstein <alban at SOCKET.NET>
Date: March 18, 2010 2:09:02 PM CDT
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] Pavillions

<<< Tatiana, why was wool used for bedouin tents? >>>

I'm not Tatiana, but I should note that wool need not be hot. I've got a nice,
light-weight wool suit that's quite wearable in the summer.

<<< I would have that the hot dry climate would want a cooler fabric. >>>

Wool isn't hot if it's several feet from your skin....or, rather, no hotter than
a similar weight cotton is. If the tent is of a darkish tent, I would imagine
it would help in air circulation: sun warms it up, warm air rises and escapes
and cooler air comes in from the bottom and the door flap. Wool also dries
from the inside out if it gets wet (which is why mountain climbers and other
outdoorsy people love it), which keeps the insides dry if and when it rains.
Cotton dries from the outside in, which might raise the humidity levels.

I'd also think that Bedouins, who are, if memory serves, migratory, would have
more wool available (sheep, camels, and maybe goats) than they would cotton. Go
with what's within arms reach, and cheap.

Alban


From: Clayton Neff <clayton at LEWIS-NEFF.NET>
Date: March 18, 2010 1:05:11 PM CDT
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] Pavillions

<<< Tatiana, why was wool used for bedouin tents?  I would have that the hot dry climate would want a cooler fabric.  Now I'm really curious. :) >>>

From http://www.mcdonough.com/writings/new_geography.htm:

The Bedouin tent, for example, shows how simple and elegant-how suited to locale-good design can be. On the move in their migratory rounds, the Bedouins needed shelter that was both portable and reliable in a variety of conditions. On the plains of the Sinai, temperatures often rise above 120 degrees fahrenheit. There is neither shade nor breeze. But the black Bedouin tent of coarsely woven goat hair provides a breathing membrane. The black surface creates a deep shade while the coarse weave diffuses the sunlight, creating a beautifully illuminated interior. As the sun heats the dark fabric, hot air rises above the tent and air from inside is drawn out, in effect creating a cooling breeze. When it rains-as even in the desert it sometimes does-the woven fibers swell, the tiny holes in the fabric close, and the structure becomes tight. The tent is lightweight and portable and can be easily repaired; the fabric factory-the goats-followed the Bedouins around, providing valuable wool while transforming the botany of the desert into horn, skins, meat, milk, butter, and cheese. When the tent wears out, it can be composted, returning nutrients to the precious soil of a river valley oasis. This ingenious design, locally relevant and culturally rich, makes the desert skyscraper's stark separation from local material and energy flows look downright primitive.

-- Logan --


From: Lorraine Gehring <lorrainegehring at KC.SUREWEST.NET>
Date: March 19, 2010 12:25:32 PM CDT
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] Pavillions

Years ago I read a book completely about Middle Eastern tents -- the type we call bedouins in the SCA. 

The author said that the women typically stake the end of a loom outside the tent and weave a long strip of cloth made of goat and camel hair. The weaver starts at the edge of the tent shade and moves back. As the strip grows, the stake is moved further away from the tent. 

When finished, the strip of cloth then becomes the newest part of the tent. The top seam is opened and it is added to the top. The oldest, most worn piece -- the piece closest to the ground -- is removed. The tent ages in stages, with the ragged or stained pieces closest to the ground.

Wish I could remember the book. IIRC, the European author lived with the Bedouin for awhile.

Lorraine

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