cities-msg - 3/25/13

Medieval cities. Urban life.

NOTE: See also the files: buildings-msg, bridges-msg, mills-msg, commerce-msg, occupations-msg, prostitution-msg, guilds-msg, p-prices-msg.

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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: howland at noc.arc.nasa.gov (Chris de H.)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Info Medieval Cities?
Date: 21 Mar 1995 07:01:36 GMT
Organization: NASA Science Internet Project Office

In article <3klb9m$9rm at ren.fp.co.nz>, 
mulvanem at fp.co.nz (Maggie Mulvaney) writes:
|>  So, does anyone have any references
|> to books on Medieval cities, and their governance?
|> I am particularly interested in the actual political system,
|> how the Mayor was elected, other offices, who was influential
|> and so on. 

I read a wonderfull book last year, 
"Medieval Cities, their groath and the revival of trade"
by Perine or Perene or something close to that, written
in the 1920's. I'm sure any library catalog will get
you the specifics.

It was quite interesting, not dry reading at all. Rather
refreshing for what is likely used just as a text-book
most of the time.

|> I thank you in advance, and remain 
|> a servant to the Dream
|> 
|> Maighread ingen Maoil Mheana (for now, at least)
|> Resident in Ildhafn, of the Southern Reaches of Caid
|> mulvanem at fp.co.nz

Christofer de Hoyland, the Embarrassable
Southern Shores, Mists, West.
howland at nsipo.nasa.gov


From: lsteele at mtholyoke.edu (Lisa Steele)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Info Medieval Cities?
Date: 21 Mar 1995 22:18:29 GMT
Organization: Mount Holyoke College

  Ah, much better, ok..try Nicholas, _Metamorphasis of a Medieval City_, 
U. Nebraska Press (1987) (on Ghent); Brentano, _Rome before Avignon_, 
U.Cal. Press (1990) (WARNING: Presupposes an understanding of basic 13C 
history and 13C Italian history); and Brucker, _Society of Reniassance 
Florence_, Harper & Row (1971). I can't locate the full info on Norwich, 
_A History of Venice_, but it should be available in most large 
Borders-style bookstores.
  Pirenne is interesting, but much of his thesis about the rise of cities 
having to do with Med. Trade has been disproven by later authors. Check 
out Braudel's _Med. in Age of Philip II_, for an in-depth critique.


From: IVANOR at delphi.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Info Medieval Cities?
Date: 22 Mar 1995 23:50:45 GMT
Organization: Delphi Internet Services Corporation

Quoting howland from a message in rec.org.sca
   >(Chris de H.) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Info Medieval Cities?
   > Date: 21 Mar 1995 07:01:36 GMT
   > Organization: NASA Science Internet Project Office
   > In article <3klb9m$9rm at ren.fp.co.nz>,
   > mulvanem at fp.co.nz (Maggie Mulvaney) writes:
   > |>  So, does anyone have any references
   > |> to books on Medieval cities, and their governance?
   > |> I am particularly interested in the actual political system,
   > |> how the Mayor was elected, other offices, who was influential
   > |> and so on.
   > I read a wonderfull book last year,
   > "Medieval Cities, their groath and the revival of trade"
   > by Perine or Perene or something close to that, written
   > in the 1920's. I'm sure any library catalog will get
   > you the specifics.

It's Henri Pirenne.  A Very Excellent Book!

Carolyn Boselli    Host of Custom Forum 35    SCAdians on Delphi
Ive Annor M'Quhairr of Sighty Crag, AoA, Sen. Canton Dragon Forge, EK


From: IVANOR at delphi.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Info Medieval Cities?
Date: 22 Mar 1995 23:49:52 GMT
Organization: Delphi Internet Services Corporation

Quoting mulvanem from a message in rec.org.sca
   > bridge, and would like to thank everyone who responded. Your
   > kindness was indeed much appreciated!
   > Now, the quest goes on. We are indeed pursuing this though of
   > a 'shire persona' but naturally we don't just want to copy
   > what's been done before. So, does anyone have any references
   > to books on Medieval cities, and their governance?
   > I am particularly interested in the actual political system,
   > how the Mayor was elected, other offices, who was influential
   > and so on.

The best source I can think of offhand is the Gieses' Life in a Medieval
City.  Then, there's Volume II of _History of Private Life_.

Carolyn Boselli    Host of Custom Forum 35    SCAdians on Delphi
Ive Annor M'Quhairr of Sighty Crag, AoA, Sen. Canton Dragon Forge, EK


From: ALBAN at delphi.COM
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: one city item
Date: 27 Mar 1995 01:37:31 -0500
Organization: The Internet

KNGORMAN from a message in rec.org.sca
>So, does anyone have any references to books on 
>Medieval cities, and their governance? I am particularly 
>interested in the actual political system, how the Mayor 
>was elected, other offices, who was influential and so on.
go to your local university library, and look for the works 
of peter riesenberg. he was my advisor in college, and 
wrote various books and such on italian city-states in our 
period. his stuff may not be exactly on point, but he 
should at least have good bibliographies.

alban (ba, history, 1978, and wishes he'd picked a more 
employable major)


From: finchesa at aol.com (Finchesa)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Info Medieval Cities?
Date: 29 Mar 1995 18:36:40 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)

You might enjoy "Life in a Medieval City" by Joseph and Frances Gies...
should be in your local bookstore.


From: eherring at mindspring.com (Evan L. Herring)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: RE: Info Medieval Cities
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 18:48:18 -0400
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises, Inc.

Tristan  Clare de Lune posted in an earlier article:
   I believe that the Lord High MAyor of London was appointed, while
Many of the Italian city-states were republican communes, rather oligarchies,
with governing bodies elected, hired, and appointed by votes.

It's my understanding that , at least as far as medieval London was concerned, 
the Lord Mayor was elected from a council of aldermen made up the heads of the 
more powerful guilds, most notably the Mercers, Grocers, and Goldsmiths, who, 
if memory serves, provided the majority of the recorded Mayors throughout the 
period. In the Sixteenth the Merchant Adventurers, with their profits from 
expanding Levantine, Baltic and New World markets, began to become more 
common. As for the Italian city-states, despite their public affinity for the 
Republican traditions of Rome and their use of the Latinate term Civitas in 
reference to their city, the ruling families were as strong as any monarchy. 
Remember that the northern Italian cities were never considered truly Roman by 
Republican Romans, but rather as Gallic interlopers on formerly Italian (not 
Roman) soil. Medieval  Northern Italians were not even Gauls, but decendants 
of the Germanic Lombards, with a strong tradition of kingship. These cities 
may have been Roman Colonias, but without checking closely, my memory tends to 
lead me to think they were not. And finally remember that Macchiaveli claimed 
to only making observations of historical examples in the Prince, not 
inventing a new social order. Those with power, in medieval cities as well as 
in the more feudal countryside, tended to remain in power.

Martin Dragonet


From: v081lu33 at ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu (TRISTAN CLAIR DE LUNE/KEN MONDSCHEIN)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: RE: Info Medieval Cities
Date: 24 Mar 1995 03:54:49 GMT
Organization: University at Buffalo

In article <eherring.23.0050C4B0 at mindspring.com>, eherring at mindspring.com (Evan L. Herring) writes:
>Tristan  Clare de Lune posted in an earlier article:
>   I believe that the Lord High MAyor of London was appointed, while
>Many of the Italian city-states were republican communes, rather oligarchies,
>with governing bodies elected, hired, and appointed by votes.
>
>It's my understanding that , at least as far as medieval London was concerned, 
>the Lord Mayor was elected from a council of aldermen made up the heads of the 
>more powerful guilds, most notably the Mercers, Grocers, and Goldsmiths, who, 
>if memory serves, provided the majority of the recorded Mayors throughout the 
>period. In the Sixteenth the Merchant Adventurers, with their profits from 
>expanding Levantine, Baltic and New World markets, began to become more 
>common.

	Thanks. I knew not of this formerly, it being outside my area of
experience (thus far). Could I assume German burghers were elected similarly?

 As for the Italian city-states, despite their public affinity for the 
>Republican traditions of Rome and their use of the Latinate term Civitas in 
>reference to their city, the ruling families were as strong as any monarchy. 

	Depends. There were some outright dynasties (the D'Estes, Sforzas,
kings of Naples, Montefeltros of Urbino, and of course the Papacy spring
 to mind), but there were also *republics*. In Venice, for instance, the city
was ruled by councils drawn from a pool of oligarchs of established geneaology.
The pool of families had been closed in the early 13th century, and was
maintained in a "Golden Book." In Florence, Siena, and other places, there
had been a *conscious effort* to insure civil peace and harmony by ejecting
or penalizing "magnates" (i.e. nobles). Persons of even common lineage were
designated "magnates" for such crimes as brawling or robbery, and they and
their families were subject to the same penalties.
	In Florence, the city council (signoria) and the various offices
(like the gonfolere, or standard-bearer) were determined by lot from the pool
of eligible property-owners. The chief magistrate, or podesta, ("power") was
an appointed official who was salaried, and moreover, *could not be from
Florence* (thereby insuring his impartiality). Furthermore, the podesta served
a term of office. There were even professional podesta who travelled from
city to city, as many places had the same or a similar system.
	These systems were always oligarchies to an extent. However, even after
Cosimo I D'Medici began to run things in Florence from behind the scenes in
the 1420's, the pretense and machinery of the Republic was maintained. The
Medici maintained power by their network of clients and by such things as
loans to the city, propaganda, and even stuffing ballot boxes. The fact that
the signoria still had power meant that Cosimo himself was banished from
the city in the 1430's (until his friends got into power again), and also
led to Lorenzo il Magnifico's son Piero the Unlucky being literally shut out
after his return from unsuccessful negotiations with the advancing Charles
VIII in 1494. In this last case, the power vacuum was then filled by the
Dominican, Savonarola, a popular demogogue. The Medici, however, were out
of favor until 1512 or so, when, in one swoop, Leo X became Pope and Lorenzo
II D'Medici was restored to power. But that's another story. Another intersting
anecdote is the Piazzi Conspiracy of 1478, which gives an intersting insight
to opposition to the Medici regime (which was dealt with harshly).

>Remember that the northern Italian cities were never considered truly Roman by 
>Republican Romans,

	Yes-- but by the time of the Empire, they were quite Romanized. Also,
Vergil was from up there. -->
Hell, a couple of Emperors, including the venerated Trajan were from Spain!
(At least I think Trajan was). Look at archaelogical evidence in such places
as Pompey for some insights into the Romanization of Latin towns. Further,
in their own minds, Italian city-states and territories have always, and still,
considered themselves first and foremost citizens of a *city*, like Milan or
Rome, and then a region, like Tuscany, and *then* Italian.
 
 but rather as Gallic interlopers on formerly Italian (not 
>Roman) soil. Medieval  Northern Italians were not even Gauls, but decendants 
>of the Germanic Lombards, with a strong tradition of kingship. These cities 
>may have been Roman Colonias, but without checking closely, my memory tends to 
>lead me to think they were not.

	Colonias were all over. And the Lombards were assimilated for a very
great part. Besides, remember Charlemagne? The invaders had a great desire to
assimilate and imitate Roman culture.

 And finally remember that Macchiaveli claimed 
>to only making observations of historical examples in the Prince, not 
>inventing a new social order. Those with power, in medieval cities as well as 
>in the more feudal countryside, tended to remain in power.

	I was speaking of citizen-armies, wasn't I? Or something...

>Martin Dragonet

		--Tristan Clair de Lune


Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 14:57:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jenne Heise <jenne at tulgey.browser.net>
To: Shire of Eisental <eisental at tulgey.browser.net>, sca-east at indra.com,
        SCA Arts list <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Medieval Urban History web site

The following review appeared in the most recent Net Scout Report:

Medieval English Urban History
http://www.trytel.com/~tristan/towns/towns.html

A labor of love for its author, Stephen Alsford (Special Projects Officer
at the Canadian Museum of Civilization), this site promises to be a
reliable source for well written and researched articles on Medieval
English Urban History. Currently, the site contains concise capsule
histories of six English towns: Norwich, King's Lynn, Great Yarmouth,
Ipswich, Colchester, and Maldon. Each history covers key topics such as
Origins and early growth, Development of local government, Buildings and
fortifications, and Economy. Alsford has also generously placed the full
text of his Master of Philosophy thesis on the site, an engaging study of
office-holding in six East Anglian boroughs between 1272-1460. Additional
resources at the site include a glossary and a large collection of related
links. Alsford plans to add maps, photos, illustrations, and additional
capsule histories in the future. [MD]

Jadwiga Zajaczkowa (Shire of Eisental; HERMS Cyclonus), mka Jennifer Heise
jenne at tulgey.browser.net


Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 17:33:24 -0600
From: James Prescott <prescotj at telusplanet.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Rotten meat and spices...
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>,

At 18:18 -0400 2005-04-11, Phlip wrote:
>  another was a discussion of how many critters were
>  used in a given town- I think the first cite was from England, the second
>  from Italy.

There's a lot of information about how many critters were needed
weekly in Paris (about 1395) in Menagier (the Power translation,
page 221).

Thorvald


Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 17:34:45 +1000
From: James Brown <jaybe62 at tpg.com.au>
Subject: [Lochac] Walled Cities
To: "The Shambles, the SCA Lochac mailing list" <lochac at sca.org.au>

Here's a link to an article about walled cities which feature various
medieval ones.

http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2009/07/walled-cities-keeping-out-joneses.html

Rodrigo


Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 10:03:40 -0500
From: "Daniel & Elizabeth Phelps" <dephelps at embarqmail.com>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] On the poor diet of a son away in the city

  Costor vissuti sono un mese e pine
a noci, a fichi, a fave, a carne secca;
tal ch'ella fia malizia e non cilecca
el far si lunga stanza costa' sue.
  Come 'l bue fiesolan guarda a l'ingiue
Arno, assetato, e' mocci se ne lecca,
cosi fanno ei l'uova ch'ha la trecca
e, col beccaio del castrone, e del bue.

They have lived a month and more on nuts, figs, beans and dried meat, till 
it's no joke to stay here all this time.  Just as the Fiesolan ox looks down 
at the Arno thirstily and licks his nose, so they at the eggs of the 
market-woman and at the butcher's mutton and beef.

Daniel 


Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 15:07:02 -0500
From: "Daniel & Elizabeth Phelps" <dephelps at embarqmail.com>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] On the poor diet of a son away in the city

Costor vissuti sono un mese e pine
a noci, a fichi, a fave, a carne secca;
tal ch'ella fia malizia e non cilecca
el far si lunga stanza costa' sue.
Come 'l bue fiesolan guarda a l'ingiue
Arno, assetato, e' mocci se ne lecca,
cosi fanno ei l'uova ch'ha la trecca
e, col beccaio del castrone, e del bue.

Was requested:
> Funny passage. Citation, if possible?

Found it in "The Life of Niccolo Machiavelli" by Roberto Ridolfi on pages 34 
and 35.  It is part of a sonnet written by Niccolo to his father regards the 
occasion of the father having sent in from the country the gift of a fat 
goose because he worries about his son's city diet of dried meat and dried 
fruit or even just "bread and the taste of the knife".  The quote is 
incomplete and after skipping a bit, presumably including the part about the 
bread and knife, it ends with:

Al fin del giuoco pol,
messer Bernardo mio, vol comprerete
paperi ed oche e non ne mangerete.

In the end you, messer Bernardo, will be buying ducks and geese and not 
eating any yourself.

The edition I have is an English translation from the Italian and the sense 
of some of the passages regards the sonnet are complicated by the fact that 
Niccolo's brother-in-law appears to have been named Bernardo as well.

The foot note in its regard, lacking in clarification, states:

The sonnet, "A messer Bernardo suo padre, in villa a S. Casciano", is in 
Opp. MC, p 870, where lines 15-17  should more correctly read;

Dite a quel mio fratello
che venga a trionfar con esso noi
l'oca che avemmo giovedi da voi.

Sorry but I cannot find my Italian/English Dictionary, so no translation of 
the passage.  French, Spanish, Portuguese, Greek, and Breton to English 
dictionaries are all on the shelf but where the Italian has gotten to I do 
not know.

The book lacks a bibliography as such but does say Opp. MC.=Niccolo 
Machiavelli, Tutte le opere storiche e letterarie, ed, Guido Mazzoni and 
Mario Casella, Florence, G. Barbera, 1929.

Daniel


Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 17:34:45 +1000
From: James Brown <jaybe62 at tpg.com.au>
Subject: [Lochac] Walled Cities
To: "The Shambles, the SCA Lochac mailing list" <lochac at sca.org.au>

Here's a link to an article about walled cities which feature various
medieval ones.

http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2009/07/walled-cities-keeping-out-joneses.html

Rodrigo


Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 12:19:26 +0000
From: "Groff, Garth (ggg9y)" <ggg9y at virginia.edu>
To: "atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org"
	<atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>, 	"isenfir at virginia.edu"
	<isenfir at virginia.edu>
Subject: [MR] More Leicester U. Richard III Stuff

I just stumbled onto another part of the U. of Leicester's extensive web site, and found they have page after page of features on Richard III and medieval Leicester: http://www.le.ac.uk/richardiii/history.html . The history section has bird's eye views of the town in the 15th century, plus several sub-pages of stuff on Richard. Go to the Archaeology section and you can view some nice reconstructions of the church itself. The section on Science explains the sort of tests they put Richard's skeleton to and some other cool stuff.

There's enough good stuff here to keep a Scadian entertained for a whole morning (instead of working, hmmm . . . . )

Lord Mungo Napier, The Archer of Mallard Lodge

<the end>
Edited by Mark S. Harris	cities-msg	Page 9 of 9