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cities-msg - 3/25/13

 

Medieval cities. Urban life.

 

NOTE: See also the files: buildings-msg, bridges-msg, mills-msg, commerce-msg, occupations-msg, prostitution-msg, guilds-msg, p-prices-msg.

 

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NOTICE -

 

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

 

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

 

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

 

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

 

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

 

Thank you,

    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                          Stefan at florilegium.org

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From: howland at noc.arc.nasa.gov (Chris de H.)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Info Medieval Cities?

Date: 21 Mar 1995 07:01:36 GMT

Organization: NASA Science Internet Project Office

 

In article <3klb9m$9rm at ren.fp.co.nz>,

mulvanem at fp.co.nz (Maggie Mulvaney) writes:

|> So, does anyone have any references

|> to books on Medieval cities, and their governance?

|> I am particularly interested in the actual political system,

|> how the Mayor was elected, other offices, who was influential

|> and so on.

 

I read a wonderfull book last year,

"Medieval Cities, their groath and the revival of trade"

by Perine or Perene or something close to that, written

in the 1920's. I'm sure any library catalog will get

you the specifics.

 

It was quite interesting, not dry reading at all. Rather

refreshing for what is likely used just as a text-book

most of the time.

 

|> I thank you in advance, and remain

|> a servant to the Dream

|>

|> Maighread ingen Maoil Mheana (for now, at least)

|> Resident in Ildhafn, of the Southern Reaches of Caid

|> mulvanem at fp.co.nz

 

Christofer de Hoyland, the Embarrassable

Southern Shores, Mists, West.

howland at nsipo.nasa.gov

 

 

From: lsteele at mtholyoke.edu (Lisa Steele)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Info Medieval Cities?

Date: 21 Mar 1995 22:18:29 GMT

Organization: Mount Holyoke College

 

Ah, much better, ok..try Nicholas, _Metamorphasis of a Medieval City_,

U. Nebraska Press (1987) (on Ghent); Brentano, _Rome before Avignon_,

U.Cal. Press (1990) (WARNING: Presupposes an understanding of basic 13C

history and 13C Italian history); and Brucker, _Society of Reniassance

Florence_, Harper & Row (1971). I can't locate the full info on Norwich,

_A History of Venice_, but it should be available in most large

Borders-style bookstores.

Pirenne is interesting, but much of his thesis about the rise of cities

having to do with Med. Trade has been disproven by later authors. Check

out Braudel's _Med. in Age of Philip II_, for an in-depth critique.

 

 

From: IVANOR at delphi.com

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Info Medieval Cities?

Date: 22 Mar 1995 23:50:45 GMT

Organization: Delphi Internet Services Corporation

 

Quoting howland from a message in rec.org.sca

   >(Chris de H.) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Info Medieval Cities?

   > Date: 21 Mar 1995 07:01:36 GMT

   > Organization: NASA Science Internet Project Office

   > In article <3klb9m$9rm at ren.fp.co.nz>,

   > mulvanem at fp.co.nz (Maggie Mulvaney) writes:

   > |>  So, does anyone have any references

   > |> to books on Medieval cities, and their governance?

   > |> I am particularly interested in the actual political system,

   > |> how the Mayor was elected, other offices, who was influential

   > |> and so on.

   > I read a wonderfull book last year,

   > "Medieval Cities, their groath and the revival of trade"

   > by Perine or Perene or something close to that, written

   > in the 1920's. I'm sure any library catalog will get

   > you the specifics.

 

It's Henri Pirenne.  A Very Excellent Book!

 

Carolyn Boselli    Host of Custom Forum 35    SCAdians on Delphi

Ive Annor M'Quhairr of Sighty Crag, AoA, Sen. Canton Dragon Forge, EK

 

 

From: IVANOR at delphi.com

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Info Medieval Cities?

Date: 22 Mar 1995 23:49:52 GMT

Organization: Delphi Internet Services Corporation

 

Quoting mulvanem from a message in rec.org.sca

   > bridge, and would like to thank everyone who responded. Your

   > kindness was indeed much appreciated!

   > Now, the quest goes on. We are indeed pursuing this though of

   > a 'shire persona' but naturally we don't just want to copy

   > what's been done before. So, does anyone have any references

   > to books on Medieval cities, and their governance?

   > I am particularly interested in the actual political system,

   > how the Mayor was elected, other offices, who was influential

   > and so on.

 

The best source I can think of offhand is the Gieses' Life in a Medieval

City. Then, there's Volume II of _History of Private Life_.

 

Carolyn Boselli    Host of Custom Forum 35    SCAdians on Delphi

Ive Annor M'Quhairr of Sighty Crag, AoA, Sen. Canton Dragon Forge, EK

 

 

From: ALBAN at delphi.COM

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: one city item

Date: 27 Mar 1995 01:37:31 -0500

Organization: The Internet

 

KNGORMAN from a message in rec.org.sca

>So, does anyone have any references to books on

>Medieval cities, and their governance? I am particularly

>interested in the actual political system, how the Mayor

>was elected, other offices, who was influential and so on.

go to your local university library, and look for the works

of peter riesenberg. he was my advisor in college, and

wrote various books and such on italian city-states in our

period. his stuff may not be exactly on point, but he

should at least have good bibliographies.

 

alban (ba, history, 1978, and wishes he'd picked a more

employable major)

 

 

From: finchesa at aol.com (Finchesa)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Info Medieval Cities?

Date: 29 Mar 1995 18:36:40 -0500

Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)

 

You might enjoy "Life in a Medieval City" by Joseph and Frances Gies...

should be in your local bookstore.

 

 

From: eherring at mindspring.com (Evan L. Herring)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: RE: Info Medieval Cities

Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 18:48:18 -0400

Organization: MindSpring Enterprises, Inc.

 

Tristan Clare de Lune posted in an earlier article:

   I believe that the Lord High MAyor of London was appointed, while

Many of the Italian city-states were republican communes, rather oligarchies,

with governing bodies elected, hired, and appointed by votes.

 

It's my understanding that , at least as far as medieval London was concerned,

the Lord Mayor was elected from a council of aldermen made up the heads of the

more powerful guilds, most notably the Mercers, Grocers, and Goldsmiths, who,

if memory serves, provided the majority of the recorded Mayors throughout the

period. In the Sixteenth the Merchant Adventurers, with their profits from

expanding Levantine, Baltic and New World markets, began to become more

common. As for the Italian city-states, despite their public affinity for the

Republican traditions of Rome and their use of the Latinate term Civitas in

reference to their city, the ruling families were as strong as any monarchy.

Remember that the northern Italian cities were never considered truly Roman by

Republican Romans, but rather as Gallic interlopers on formerly Italian (not

Roman) soil. Medieval  Northern Italians were not even Gauls, but decendants

of the Germanic Lombards, with a strong tradition of kingship. These cities

may have been Roman Colonias, but without checking closely, my memory tends to

lead me to think they were not. And finally remember that Macchiaveli claimed

to only making observations of historical examples in the Prince, not

inventing a new social order. Those with power, in medieval cities as well as

in the more feudal countryside, tended to remain in power.

 

Martin Dragonet

 

 

From: v081lu33 at ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu (TRISTAN CLAIR DE LUNE/KEN MONDSCHEIN)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: RE: Info Medieval Cities

Date: 24 Mar 1995 03:54:49 GMT

Organization: University at Buffalo

 

In article <eherring.23.0050C4B0 at mindspring.com>, eherring at mindspring.com (Evan L. Herring) writes:

>Tristan Clare de Lune posted in an earlier article:

>   I believe that the Lord High MAyor of London was appointed, while

>Many of the Italian city-states were republican communes, rather oligarchies,

>with governing bodies elected, hired, and appointed by votes.

>It's my understanding that , at least as far as medieval London was concerned,

>the Lord Mayor was elected from a council of aldermen made up the heads of the

>more powerful guilds, most notably the Mercers, Grocers, and Goldsmiths, who,

>if memory serves, provided the majority of the recorded Mayors throughout the

>period. In the Sixteenth the Merchant Adventurers, with their profits from

>expanding Levantine, Baltic and New World markets, began to become more

>common.

 

      Thanks. I knew not of this formerly, it being outside my area of

experience (thus far). Could I assume German burghers were elected similarly?

 

As for the Italian city-states, despite their public affinity for the

>Republican traditions of Rome and their use of the Latinate term Civitas in

>reference to their city, the ruling families were as strong as any monarchy.

 

      Depends. There were some outright dynasties (the D'Estes, Sforzas,

kings of Naples, Montefeltros of Urbino, and of course the Papacy spring

to mind), but there were also *republics*. In Venice, for instance, the city

was ruled by councils drawn from a pool of oligarchs of established geneaology.

The pool of families had been closed in the early 13th century, and was

maintained in a "Golden Book." In Florence, Siena, and other places, there

had been a *conscious effort* to insure civil peace and harmony by ejecting

or penalizing "magnates" (i.e. nobles). Persons of even common lineage were

designated "magnates" for such crimes as brawling or robbery, and they and

their families were subject to the same penalties.

      In Florence, the city council (signoria) and the various offices

(like the gonfolere, or standard-bearer) were determined by lot from the pool

of eligible property-owners. The chief magistrate, or podesta, ("power") was

an appointed official who was salaried, and moreover, *could not be from

Florence* (thereby insuring his impartiality). Furthermore, the podesta served

a term of office. There were even professional podesta who travelled from

city to city, as many places had the same or a similar system.

      These systems were always oligarchies to an extent. However, even after

Cosimo I D'Medici began to run things in Florence from behind the scenes in

the 1420's, the pretense and machinery of the Republic was maintained. The

Medici maintained power by their network of clients and by such things as

loans to the city, propaganda, and even stuffing ballot boxes. The fact that

the signoria still had power meant that Cosimo himself was banished from

the city in the 1430's (until his friends got into power again), and also

led to Lorenzo il Magnifico's son Piero the Unlucky being literally shut out

after his return from unsuccessful negotiations with the advancing Charles

VIII in 1494. In this last case, the power vacuum was then filled by the

Dominican, Savonarola, a popular demogogue. The Medici, however, were out

of favor until 1512 or so, when, in one swoop, Leo X became Pope and Lorenzo

II D'Medici was restored to power. But that's another story. Another intersting

anecdote is the Piazzi Conspiracy of 1478, which gives an intersting insight

to opposition to the Medici regime (which was dealt with harshly).

 

>Remember that the northern Italian cities were never considered truly Roman by

>Republican Romans,

 

      Yes-- but by the time of the Empire, they were quite Romanized. Also,

Vergil was from up there. -->

Hell, a couple of Emperors, including the venerated Trajan were from Spain!

(At least I think Trajan was). Look at archaelogical evidence in such places

as Pompey for some insights into the Romanization of Latin towns. Further,

in their own minds, Italian city-states and territories have always, and still,

considered themselves first and foremost citizens of a *city*, like Milan or

Rome, and then a region, like Tuscany, and *then* Italian.

but rather as Gallic interlopers on formerly Italian (not

>Roman) soil. Medieval  Northern Italians were not even Gauls, but decendants

>of the Germanic Lombards, with a strong tradition of kingship. These cities

>may have been Roman Colonias, but without checking closely, my memory tends to

>lead me to think they were not.

 

      Colonias were all over. And the Lombards were assimilated for a very

great part. Besides, remember Charlemagne? The invaders had a great desire to

assimilate and imitate Roman culture.

 

And finally remember that Macchiaveli claimed

>to only making observations of historical examples in the Prince, not

>inventing a new social order. Those with power, in medieval cities as well as

>in the more feudal countryside, tended to remain in power.

 

      I was speaking of citizen-armies, wasn't I? Or something...

 

>Martin Dragonet

 

            --Tristan Clair de Lune

 

 

Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 14:57:49 -0400 (EDT)

From: Jenne Heise <jenne at tulgey.browser.net>

To: Shire of Eisental <eisental at tulgey.browser.net>, sca-east at indra.com,

       SCA Arts list <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>

Subject: Medieval Urban History web site

 

The following review appeared in the most recent Net Scout Report:

 

Medieval English Urban History

http://www.trytel.com/~tristan/towns/towns.html

 

A labor of love for its author, Stephen Alsford (Special Projects Officer

at the Canadian Museum of Civilization), this site promises to be a

reliable source for well written and researched articles on Medieval

English Urban History. Currently, the site contains concise capsule

histories of six English towns: Norwich, King's Lynn, Great Yarmouth,

Ipswich, Colchester, and Maldon. Each history covers key topics such as

Origins and early growth, Development of local government, Buildings and

fortifications, and Economy. Alsford has also generously placed the full

text of his Master of Philosophy thesis on the site, an engaging study of

office-holding in six East Anglian boroughs between 1272-1460. Additional

resources at the site include a glossary and a large collection of related

links. Alsford plans to add maps, photos, illustrations, and additional

capsule histories in the future. [MD]

 

Jadwiga Zajaczkowa (Shire of Eisental; HERMS Cyclonus), mka Jennifer Heise

jenne at tulgey.browser.net

 

 

Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 17:33:24 -0600

From: James Prescott <prescotj at telusplanet.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Rotten meat and spices...

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>,

 

At 18:18 -0400 2005-04-11, Phlip wrote:

> another was a discussion of how many critters were

> used in a given town- I think the first cite was from England, the second

> from Italy.

 

There's a lot of information about how many critters were needed

weekly in Paris (about 1395) in Menagier (the Power translation,

page 221).

 

Thorvald

 

 

Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 17:34:45 +1000

From: James Brown <jaybe62 at tpg.com.au>

Subject: [Lochac] Walled Cities

To: "The Shambles, the SCA Lochac mailing list" <lochac at sca.org.au>

 

Here's a link to an article about walled cities which feature various

medieval ones.

 

http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2009/07/walled-cities-keeping-out-joneses.html

 

Rodrigo

 

 

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 10:03:40 -0500

From: "Daniel & Elizabeth Phelps" <dephelps at embarqmail.com>

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] On the poor diet of a son away in the city

 

Costor vissuti sono un mese e pine

a noci, a fichi, a fave, a carne secca;

tal ch'ella fia malizia e non cilecca

el far si lunga stanza costa' sue.

Come 'l bue fiesolan guarda a l'ingiue

Arno, assetato, e' mocci se ne lecca,

cosi fanno ei l'uova ch'ha la trecca

e, col beccaio del castrone, e del bue.

 

They have lived a month and more on nuts, figs, beans and dried meat, till

it's no joke to stay here all this time.  Just as the Fiesolan ox looks down

at the Arno thirstily and licks his nose, so they at the eggs of the

market-woman and at the butcher's mutton and beef.

 

Daniel

 

 

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2009 15:07:02 -0500

From: "Daniel & Elizabeth Phelps" <dephelps at embarqmail.com>

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] On the poor diet of a son away in the city

 

Costor vissuti sono un mese e pine

a noci, a fichi, a fave, a carne secca;

tal ch'ella fia malizia e non cilecca

el far si lunga stanza costa' sue.

Come 'l bue fiesolan guarda a l'ingiue

Arno, assetato, e' mocci se ne lecca,

cosi fanno ei l'uova ch'ha la trecca

e, col beccaio del castrone, e del bue.

 

Was requested:

> Funny passage. Citation, if possible?

 

Found it in "The Life of Niccolo Machiavelli" by Roberto Ridolfi on pages 34

and 35.  It is part of a sonnet written by Niccolo to his father regards the

occasion of the father having sent in from the country the gift of a fat

goose because he worries about his son's city diet of dried meat and dried

fruit or even just "bread and the taste of the knife".  The quote is

incomplete and after skipping a bit, presumably including the part about the

bread and knife, it ends with:

 

Al fin del giuoco pol,

messer Bernardo mio, vol comprerete

paperi ed oche e non ne mangerete.

 

In the end you, messer Bernardo, will be buying ducks and geese and not

eating any yourself.

 

The edition I have is an English translation from the Italian and the sense

of some of the passages regards the sonnet are complicated by the fact that

Niccolo's brother-in-law appears to have been named Bernardo as well.

 

The foot note in its regard, lacking in clarification, states:

 

The sonnet, "A messer Bernardo suo padre, in villa a S. Casciano", is in

Opp. MC, p 870, where lines 15-17  should more correctly read;

 

Dite a quel mio fratello

che venga a trionfar con esso noi

l'oca che avemmo giovedi da voi.

 

Sorry but I cannot find my Italian/English Dictionary, so no translation of

the passage.  French, Spanish, Portuguese, Greek, and Breton to English

dictionaries are all on the shelf but where the Italian has gotten to I do

not know.

 

The book lacks a bibliography as such but does say Opp. MC.=Niccolo

Machiavelli, Tutte le opere storiche e letterarie, ed, Guido Mazzoni and

Mario Casella, Florence, G. Barbera, 1929.

 

Daniel

 

 

Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 17:34:45 +1000

From: James Brown <jaybe62 at tpg.com.au>

Subject: [Lochac] Walled Cities

To: "The Shambles, the SCA Lochac mailing list" <lochac at sca.org.au>

 

Here's a link to an article about walled cities which feature various

medieval ones.

 

http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2009/07/walled-cities-keeping-out-joneses.html

 

Rodrigo

 

 

Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2013 12:19:26 +0000

From: "Groff, Garth (ggg9y)" <ggg9y at virginia.edu>

To: "atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org"

      <atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>,  "isenfir at virginia.edu"

      <isenfir at virginia.edu>

Subject: [MR] More Leicester U. Richard III Stuff

 

I just stumbled onto another part of the U. of Leicester's extensive web site, and found they have page after page of features on Richard III and medieval Leicester: http://www.le.ac.uk/richardiii/history.html . The history section has bird's eye views of the town in the 15th century, plus several sub-pages of stuff on Richard. Go to the Archaeology section and you can view some nice reconstructions of the church itself. The section on Science explains the sort of tests they put Richard's skeleton to and some other cool stuff.

 

There's enough good stuff here to keep a Scadian entertained for a whole morning (instead of working, hmmm . . . . )

 

Lord Mungo Napier, The Archer of Mallard Lodge

 

<the end>



Formatting copyright © Mark S. Harris (THLord Stefan li Rous).
All other copyrights are property of the original article and message authors.

Comments to the Editor: stefan at florilegium.org