castles-msg

castles-msg - 2/12/01

Medieval castles and fortifications.

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This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

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Thank you,

Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous

Stefan at florilegium.org

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From: haslock at rust.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock)

Date: 14 Aug 91 22:31:35 GMT

Organization: DECwest, Digital Equipment Corp., Bellevue WA

From article <1991Aug13.212948.25017 at agora.uucp>, by trifid at agora.uucp (Roadster Racewerks):

> However, I was surprised that many of the city and castle walls

> we saw in the British Isles were not all that high... 2 meters is a good

> enough aproximation. Tower-houses had walls about twice that height, as did

> some inner curtain walls in large castles.

I took the opportunity, while at Clinton, to listen to Baron Gerhard expound

on the theory and practise of castles (the talk was intended for sergeant

and yeoman candidates for some obscure reason).

Gerhard pointed out that the major constraints on the hight of a curtain wall

were 1) cash and 2) foundations. Cash limits the number of labourers and the

amount of stone available to build the silly thing. Foundations limit the

amount of weight one can build into a wall. Theory says that towers must

overlook the curtain walls and so must be taller. Thus it is the foundations of

the towers that limit the height of the curtain wall.

Another factor is that a town wall can be defended by the citizens. This means

that the designer can trade height of wall for manpower, on the principle that

a high wall needs a few good men to defend it while a lower wall needs a lot

of defenders.

It is also possible that since they built on roman foundations, the foundations

really were inadequate for a larger wall. It is unlikely that the romans

foresaw the need of the Normans to heavily defend York and so

over-engineered the foundations of their wall.

Suggestions that english cities fill up with detritus, materially affecting

the ground level are extremely suspect. For example, I know of no English

historic buildings where the door step is below the level of the surrounding

ground. I will accept that the batters (if they ever existed) are now

buried under a layer of turf. The batters are the stone faced sloped bit

at the foot of the wall (he says, proudly displaying an item of trivia learned

from Gerhard).

The moral of this is that I agree with Baron Gerhard. English fortification

builders built 2 meter high curtain walls because they were adequate for

the purpose.

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: fighting on staircases

From: maryann_butterfield at microlinkbbs.com (Maryann Butterfield)

Date: Fri, 28 Jul 95 07:43:00 -0800

Organization: MicroLink BBS 619-371-4452 5+ Gigs

Greetings All,

While in Ireland last year, I had occasion to walk up and down several

staircases. Some (in round towers) were spiral, others (in square

towers) were straight except at the corners. They always turned to the

right as you ascended. They were about 27" wide (just big enough to

take one of the large scutums used by our local -heavy- shield wall

(called the Gravity Well).

Being a fighter (commander) my thoughts naturally turned to

defensibility. Big shield backed by poleaxe would be ideal. There

was always plenty of room overhead for striking downward.

Yours in the Dream,

Shadowwolf

maryann_butterfield at microlinkbbs.com

From: Suze.Hammond at hubert.rain.com (Suze Hammond)

Date: 10 Oct 96 19:59:01

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Modern Castle building for the Complete Idiot

Ga> From: Gareth.Bull at cc.monash.edu.au (Gareth Bull)

[...]

Ga> Well, here in the burg where I make my abode, I've discovered a number

Ga> of buildings that are so unusual in their design, it takes only a very

Ga> slight step of the imagination to believe that they are indeed castles

Ga> (apart from their colour, red). These buildings that I know of all

Ga> seem to be of around the same period (approx 100 years old), with

Ga> rooms on many seperate levels. They are made of brick and crowned with

Ga> slate roofs. One of these is a few minutes travel from my home and

Ga> faces a rail line which I use often. Putting a rough hewn granite

Ga> veneer over the brick would complete the transformation.

Ga> Gareth Bull

Why bother? Castles were built of brick, especially later in Period. If

these are of a Tudor style (rather popular a century ago) they may be as

authentic as they'll ever get just as they are.

(Well, add a portculis, etc...)

And if you must have stone, sandstone is also perfectly acceptable (and

absorbed the shock of cannonballs better than the more brittle types).

Many of the castles of Scotland are made of this stone, often using one of

the colored ones (yellow or red) as corner, door and window "molding" in a

most attractive way. Sandstone is easier to "dress" (shape) and cheaper.

... Moreach

From: sxymnnkilt at aol.com (SxyMnNKilt)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Modern Castle building for the Complete Idiot

Date: 11 Oct 1996 21:56:22 -0400

In article <53icmj$i8j at harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au>,

Gareth.Bull at cc.monash.edu.au (Gareth Bull) writes:

> I've discovered a number

>of buildings that are so unusual in their design, it takes only a very

>slight step of the imagination to believe that they are indeed castles

>(apart from their colour, red). These buildings that I know of all

>seem to be of around the same period (approx 100 years old), with

>rooms on many seperate levels. They are made of brick and crowned with

>slate roofs.

I lived in Germany for 3 years and Castle hopped on the weekends.....

(Poland, Czech Rep., Germany, Holland, England and Belgium.) There are

MANY castles made of red brick in Europe, In East Germany there was one

(16th C.) that was being torn down to make room for gardens. I kept a

brick. I was amazed to find each was marked with a blazon! Mind you I

would not have taken one if I did not know it was going to be taken to a

land fill. Same as pieces of The Wall!

Niall-

Who wishes his soon to be Ex-wife would give him back the dirty rocks!

From: kellogg at rohan.sdsu.edu (kellogg)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Castles

Date: 14 Nov 1996 17:25:08 GMT

Organization: San Diego State University Computing Services

David Kent (dgkent at deakin.edu.au) wrote:

: I am after information, specifically drawings, technical information and

: the like (anything!), on the following:

: -Krak des Chevaliers

: -Assasin Castles in Iran (Alamut, etc.)

Haven't found anything on those two particular castles.

However, for those interested in castles, check out The Castles of

Wales at <URL: http://www.castlewales.com/home.html>;. A very well

laid out site, with paintings showing the evolution of many castles.

The views of Chepstow, for example, are very nice.

Try Castles on the Web at <URL: http://fox.nstn.ca/~tmonk/castle/

castle.html>. Neither of these appear there, but quite a number do, and

it is another well set up site.

Avenel Kellough

From: jheinen at mcl.ucsb.edu (Jeff Heinen)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Castles

Date: 14 Nov 1996 23:52:22 GMT

Organization: University of California, Santa Barbara

In article <56eac9$69c at jake.probe.net>, viking at probe.net (Natural Born

Cereal Killer) wrote:

> I'll tell you this, friend: I've spent the last seven years

> designing my home (yet to be built, I might add). I wanted

> Neuschwanstein, as a general model, and found that detailed drawings

> on these works of art is entirely unavailable.

Not entirely true. Almost every castle that is open to the public has

floor plans published in tour guides for the site. There is also a

company that publishes a series of pamphlets that has maps of various

castles. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find the file that has this

information anywhere (hard drive crashed recently). There are also

numerous scholarly books on architecture that contains the information you

seek.

As I write I am looking at a scale drawing of the layout of Krak des

Chevaliers published in Kelly DeVries' "Medieval Military Technology"

(p.231). This particular book has layout for quite a few castles.

-Gottfried

+--------------------------------+----------------------------------+

| Jeff Heinen | "Neccessitas non habet legem." |

| jheinen at mcl.ucsb.edu | -St. Augustine |

| http://www.calpoly.edu/~jheinen| |

|================================+==================================|

| Department of History | Senior Consultant |

| University of California | Microcomputer Lab |

| Santa Barbara | UCSB |

+--------------------------------+----------------------------------+

Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 11:15:08 -0400 (EDT)

From: VEARLEY at aol.com

Subject: Re: SC - Concrete-Off topic

I visited a castle in Colchester, England, as a child. We were shown the

levels of buildings underneath it. One of the layers was Roman, and the

guide let us handle a piece of Roman 'concrete'. He said that what the

Romans made was not the same as our modern concrete. It is much stronger and

has a different composition. At that point, they had not figured out exactly

what is was, although I'm sure they have by now. I believe Roman-built roads

are still used in England in some rural places.

Verena

vearley at aol.com

From: Lise and Marvin Hull <castlesu at harborside.com>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: castle question

Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 16:45:39 -0700

Organization: Castles Unlimited

CWebb11458 wrote:

> I am looking for some info on castles, esp. any books that have info on castle

> names and floor plans (please send to my e-mail CWebb11458 at aol.com.)

> Thanx-

> Emily

Check out my website, Castles of Britain, at

http://www.castles-of-britain.com/

We have floorplans etc. in the school projects section. While this

section is intended to help students, the info is the same as would be

available to adults. contact me directly for more info.

Lise Hull

Castles Unlimited

Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 08:18:18 -0500

From: Alex Wollangk <orion at mailbag.com>

Subject: RE: SC -cooling Creme' Bastarde

Hmmm....

I'm looking at the CADW (Welsh Historic Monuments) booklet on Caernarfon

and don't see anything that resembles a cooling room such as you

described...

In fact, the entire excerpt about the kitchens is as follows:

"To the west (right) of the King's Gate lies the lower ward. Note the

foundations of the broad wall which was intended to separate the two wards,

and of the buildings which formerly occupied the ward, concealing the lower

parts of the enclosing curtain walls. As you walk down towards the Eagle

Tower you will come first, on your right, to the site of the castle

kitchens, lying between the gatehouse and the Well Tower. The springer of

a great arch and bonding for a cross partition, both built as part of the

curtain wall, show that it was intended to build the whole in stone, but

the slight foundation walls on the courtyard side suggest that, as built,

these kitchens may have been relatively flimsy structures.

To the lift of the range of three rooms are the remains of seatings for

two copper cauldrons, with fireplaces below them. Behind them, in the

thickness of the tower wall, is a cavity which may have been used for

smoking meat. At the bottom of the wall on the right-hand side of this

cavity is a small hole marking the end of a water channel running from a

tank in the Well Tower, and below it is a drain running off to the left.

In the window openings at the back of the range there is the line of a

second channel, still bearing the remains of its lead piping, running from

the tower to a stone sink, now much weathered, mounted in a recess in the

wall about the middle of the range. In the wall below the great stone

springer, on the right, is the small opening for a rubbish disposal shaft

in the wall thickness. The accomodation at the right-hand end of these

apartments was of two storeys; a doorway in the curtain wall opens onto a

stair which served the upper room and the gatehouse."

by Arnold Taylor CBE, DLitt, FBA

Brunel House, 2 Fitzalan Road, CARDIFF, CF2 1UY

I have also talked to a friend of mine who has been there and to a number

of other castles in north wales including Beaumaris, and he doesn't

remember anything like that.

I also checked the Cadw web site in case something had been discovered

since Jack was there and thus before the booklet he brought back was

published (http://www.castlewales.com/home.html) but I couldn't find

anything there either.

I would be interested to know exactly where you are getting this

information...

Alex Wollangk

(Bran MacDavid would know nothing of this kind of research... Though he

may very well have heard of Caernarfon...)

Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 18:07:50 EDT

From: LadyPDC at aol.com

Subject: Re: SC -cooling Creme' Bastarde

orion at mailbag.com writes:

> I also checked the Cadw web site in case something had been discovered

> since Jack was there and thus before the booklet he brought back was

> published (http://www.castlewales.com/home.html) but I couldn't find

> anything there either.

> I would be interested to know exactly where you are getting this

> information...

> Alex Wollangk

> (Bran MacDavid would know nothing of this kind of research... Though he

> may very well have heard of Caernarfon...)

Ironically, we started in much the same place ... that being the

castlewales.com page. Wonderful site that.

In my case, I had originally wanted to make my pastry castle subtlety

resemble an actual castle as might have been done in that time period. I

chose the Caernarfon Castle because it was the site of the investiture of the

first "Prince of Wales" and many since. I was working on the premise that,

even though the castle was not completed at the time of that investiture, the

cooks would want to present a rather grand subtlety for the occasion and

might want to produce a castle as it would one day be completed.

For that reason, I contacted by email the CADW and the CSG as well as each of

the contributors to the Castle of Wales website to ask them if they could

send me any information on the castle structure and design both what was done

and what was originally planned. I have learned that it never hurts to ask

for information as the worst you can get is a rejection.

Several responded, but one was a very nice lady who sent me a package of

copied materials and a very nice letter saying that she works with

"sobtelties" as well and wanted to give me as much information as possible.

Talk about information overload. The package contained (besides pamphlets

and booklets) copies of architectural studies done at the castle for possible

rebuilding, copies of some of the original designs and copies of studies done

on various components of the castle. Many of the notes and drawings are

handwritten, some in old English and at least one in a foreign language with

a translation.

The section on the cold room caught in my memory as much for the

inconsistencies as for anything else (Fahrenheit rather than Celsius, the

mention of the temp measurements being done with the room closed for 48

hours) as well as the fact that it was separately bound.

I can't give you the exact quotes right now because my husband is also

working on a castle reconstruction project and has taken the box on the road

with him (OTR truck driver) to study. Will be happy to give you the info

when he returns.

However, I can think of several possible reasons that your book and your

friend might have different results than I found:

1. It might be a portion of the castle which was planned but never completed.

2. It might be a portion of the castle which was completed but destroyed in

the sacking in 1646.

3. It might be a portion of the castle which is in an unsafe or unrestored

area and therefore not open or mentioned to the general public.

4. It might be something this lady stuck in the packet which is on the wrong

castle or which was written up by unregulated sources. I admit I only gave

it a quick glance and could have misread or misunderstood something like that

(I am certainly not a professional researcher and the thing has footnotes all

over the place)

Any one of the above is certainly possible and many more besides.

As I said, I will look into it when the box returns and plan to look further

into cooling methods used in period. I will be happy to let you all know

what I find once I have verified all of the information. But please be

patient as besides doing the odd A&S thingie, I also hold down 2 full time

plus jobs and a few other small responsibilities. This research fits into

my small amount of "fun" time and I intend that it remain exactly that ...

fun.

Constance de LaRose

Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:50:22 CEST

From: "Christina van Tets" <cjvt at hotmail.com>

Subject: SC - period ovens

A couple of weeks ago I was at a krak (crusader castle) which still had the

kitchen pretty much intact. Well, roofless, but it was mostly there. There

were 3 beehive/igloo ovens all in a row, about 3 feet across, and maybe

about 2 1/2 feet high, plus there was a fireplace next to them, just a small

one about 2' square. They were all built into the same wall, and

consequently shared one very wide chimney. There was a large room which

held the mouths of the ovens, and a small room maybe 8' across which held

the hive part of the ovens and the open fireplace and, IIRC, some sort of

bench arrangement. Leaving aside the bench bit (oh dear, I'll just have to

go back and check...), why would there be a small, very hot room for the

open fire? What might it have been used for? The other was specifically

stated to have been the kitchen.

Most of the walls in the krak are about 3 feet thick, and the buildings are

very cool inside, but I still wouldn't want to be in that tiny room in

summer. Winter would be different. Maybe you could use it as a general

yeast-culture room in winter (i.e. beer as well as bread). There are

fireplaces or smokeholes in almost every social room in each krak we've

visited. This place gets cold in winter (well, not like Europe, but it

snows), but summer is a very different story (we're not even into summer

yet, and averaging 40 deg C at present).

Cairistiona

P.S. The castle also boasts a stone bath - huge - you could fit 2 in it

quite easily. Those crusaders...

P.P.S. Also some remains of a smithy. Not much, apart from a tempering

bath.