blacks-msg - 9/7/17 Blacks in medieval Europe. NOTE: See also the files: Africa-msg, Africa-lnks, Ethiopia-art, Italy-msg, Moors-msg, Gypsies-msg, Jews-msg, pirates-msg, Congo-art. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: Ron Charlotte Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: re: minorities & anachronisms Date: Tue, 27 Sep 94 22:45:10 -0500 Solveig Throndardottir -- nostrand at bayes.math.yorku.ca (Barbara Nostrand) wrote: >Further, there really were black Africans living independently in >Europe and Caucasians living in Africa during SCA period. She's absolutely right, in fact my few lingering doubts about my participation in this thing of ours were finally banished when I encountered a painting of Alessandro de Medici (1511-1537), the son of Giulio de Medici (who became Pope Clement VII), and Duke of Florence (unpopular, but Duke nonetheless). He was about as dark as myself. I figured at that point; if this man could be born (legitimately or not) into a family as prominent as the de Medici, then the odds were pretty good that Black people, while not common, were in Europe enough to be very much a part of the population. This made my persona as the son of a Persian soldier and a Sudanese woman, dwelling in Tuscany due to being displaced by the conquests of Castile and Aragon, suddenly "jell", and I found the era and garb that I find most appealing. As I've remarked before, since then, I've been gradually hunting down period documentation of Africans in Europe. Truth be told, the racial aspect isn't something that I dwell on much, beyond my academic curiosity; long ago, the Society became a place where I found an extended "family" of really great minds to interact with. So, If you've encountered any such documentation on the subject of "modern day minorities" in period, drop me a note. Given sufficient time, I'll Interlibrary loan it. al Thaalibi -- An Crosire, Trimaris Ron Charlotte -- roncharlotte at delphi.com or afn03234 at freenet.ufl.edu From: cmwalden at bga.com (Antonio Bastiano) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Minorities in the SCA Date: 13 Dec 1994 05:48:12 GMT In article <3circd$9g7 at jabba.cybernetics.net>, achbar at cybernetics.net (James Morrow) says: > > "Why are there so few Black people in the SCA?" I couldn't answer to that. Perhaps the concept of raising up the European ethic is not very politically correct. I do know that the game that I play, rapier, is strongly influenced by the work of a black man in a book which he called "Les Trois Mousketaires" (sp?). Antonio Bastiano Bryn Gwlad, Ansteorra. or cmwalden at bga.com From: sclark at blues.epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Carroll-Clark) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Temporary Persona OOP Problem Date: 26 Jun 1995 02:45:19 GMT Organization: University of Toronto -- EPAS Thanks to a rather resourceful lady in my canton, folks in Eoforwic tend to know something about folks of African descent in the Middle Ages. She's taken a late 15th century Portugeuse freedwoman persona herself, and from what I remember, it would not have been odd to see blacks anywhere in the Iberian peninsula (not just slaves, btw) and also in Italy (though not to the same extent). For the most part, we're talking Renaissance times--15th and 16th century. You could also choose to be from the Arab world (Moorish or more Baghdad-type Arabia), Egypt (not ancient Egypt), or my favorite--Constantinople, where folks from virtually everywhere could be found. Based on what Ines has told me, do expect to get a few questions about why you are interested in "white guys' history (from others of African descent), and if you opt for a non-obvious (ie Moorish) persona to get a number of somewhat sloppily worded inquiries as to why you picked what you did. There just aren't a lot of huge books devoted to people of African descent in Medieval and Renaissance Europe, and some people take this to mean that there weren't any at all. When it comes down to a final decision, pick a persona that interests you and that you'll have fun researching. I've seen Italian Vikings, blond Mongols, and all other sorts of interesting persona combinations over the years. Cheers! Nicolaa/Susan Canton of Eoforwic sclark at epas.utoronto.ca From: jkrissw at cinenet.net (J. Kriss White) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Temporary Persona OOP Problem Date: 26 Jun 1995 07:06:02 GMT Organization: Cinenet Communications,Internet Access,Los Angeles;310-301-4500 David Sanders (ae766 at yfn.ysu.edu) wrote: : In a previous article, DDFr at Midway.UChicago.edu (David Friedman) says: : >There is no rule requiring your persona to match your physical appearance. : >My own view is that choosing a persona consistent with your physical : >appearance is usually a good idea, since it makes it that much easier to do : >a convincing job of being your persona, but it is entirely up to you : >whether you want to follow that advice; lots of people don't. : Once at Pennsic I met a Black woman in full Elizabethan -- absolutely : stunning! : Vajk : ae766 at yfn.ysu.edu Actually, I recall reading somewhere that there was a significant free black (African merchant) presence in English seaports during Elizabeth's reign, something deduced that there were no less than three expulsion orders for them on the behalf of English merchants who thought they were being undercut. :) (considerably after the period of) Daveed of Granada From: nqf2312 at is2.nyu.edu (Norman J. Finkelshteyn) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: African-European personae Date: 1 Aug 1995 05:14:18 GMT Organization: New York University Kristine E. Maitland (bq676 at torfree.net) wrote: : I have read journal articles and books on sixteenth century Africans in the : British Isles, Portugal and Spain. I have checked Russian history texts : (as far as I can tell, black Africans were not seen in Russia until the : mid 18th century... i could be wrong here). The Russian poet Alexander Pushkin is reputed to have been part African. his family history may be a good place to look if you've an interest in Russians and Africans. Nahum Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: bq676 at torfree.net (Kristine E. Maitland) Subject: Re: accents (WAS: Being in Persona) Organization: Toronto Free-Net Date: Fri, 1 Sep 1995 12:45:44 GMT I just thought I'd add a note. My persona is a Black freedwoman from Portugal and it has been my want to sing in the language of my country. As I have discovered, singing in Portuguese is FAR from easy. But I discovered an interesting bit of information not too long ago: black women in Portugal for my period (circa 16th cen.) spoke in a heavy dialect to the point where most Portuguese could not understand a word of it. I "visualise" this as the difference between Jamaican dialect and "the Queen's English". Just a note Ines Carmen Maria de Freitas From: afn03234 at afn.org (Ronald L. Charlotte) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: West African (was women in combat) Date: 28 Oct 1995 12:14:22 GMT kolsoft (kolsoft at inlink.com) wrote: : In article <46miqv$ctv at huron.eel.ufl.edu>, afn03234 at afn.org says... : > : >The Kingdom of Congo had extensive and fairly tight contacts with : >Portugal in the 1500's. At least initially, the King of Portugal treated : >the King of Congo as an equal. A significant number of the Congoese : >travelled to Portugal for education, and one of the sons of the Congo : >king became a Bishop of the Church (albiet with little actual authority). : > : The Almoravids had Hausa troops when they crossed the Straits of Gibraltar in : 1170(?). The Christians had never seen anything like them- dark, dark skin, : hippo-hide shields, and war drums that could communicate orders across huge : battlefields. I don't know how many actually stayed in Iberia after the : fighting, but there were certainly black slaves in Muslim and Christian : households. Even in the original conquest, there were black soldiers among the conquering Moslems. In illustrations from illuminated manuscripts of the era, there are pretty clearly Negro features on some of the moslem horsemen and footsoldiers. The clearest illustrations tho' are from the 13th c. _Cantigas of Alfonso X_ which has oodles of well rendered miniatures. -- al Thaalibi -- An Crosaire, Trimaris Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL afn03234 at freenet.ufl.edu From: lsteele at mtholyoke.edu (Lisa Steele) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Black Personas Date: 20 Jan 1996 14:22:14 GMT Organization: Mount Holyoke College As a note, the UNESCO's General History of Africa, vols. 3-4 has some excellent essays on the various 9-15C African kingdoms and empires. --Esclarmonde Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: bq676 at torfree.net (Kristine E. Maitland) Subject: Authenticity issues Organization: Toronto Free-Net Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 14:54:01 GMT Buon giorno, tutti! [note: I am NOT saying that black people HAVE to play black personas -- heck I have a Japanese persona on the works...] I think that I'm going to have to bring up an issue that I discussed at length some months ago, if only to provide a different perspective on this whole issue of authenicity in the S.C.A. I am a black woman. I play a black female persona. However, due to present social mores I have my persona to suit. I hate to repeat myself but the research is plain (and I can provide sources up to my armpits -- and have on several occassion) -- black women attaining noble status is EXTREMELY rare. I'd had many learned people on this bridge mention this body and that person -- but I pointed out then, they were ALL male. Black women, in general, were slaves. Freedwomen had the following occupations: huskster, innkeeper, prostitute/cortesan, lady's maid (though generally, black ladies maids were slaves with the occasional exception in Scotland and England). I know of two black lady's maids who married well -- but they were both mulatto and they both ended up in the New World. The above applies to Europe. The Islamic world (excluding sub-saharan Africa) is not much better: black women were almost always slaves -- there are next to no references to FREE black women (except for the occasional innkeeper or owner of a whore house in Egypt). There was ONE black regent in Egypt in the 14th (? I'd have to check) century. She had been a slave too... then there's the occasional free performer. So, as you can see, when playing a black female persona my options have limits. When you do black female persona you often have to truly be anachronistic. I cannot be a slave persona -- even though some black female slaves did quite while (Scotland and England come to mind). That I play a black courtesan in (ren. Italy currently) is anachronistic -- there were relatively few black women in italy for the period (the stats show that the majority of slaves in Italy were white and that black men out numbered black women 10 to 1). All the black women on record were slaves. There is no reference to FREE black courtesans or prostitutes in ITaly in period -- and I've checked the Italian resources as well. My point. There HAS to be some give and take as far as accuracy goes. This is not to say that we cannot point out errors (I have to do it all the time as far as perceptions of blacks in period goes) -- but we can do it in a way that is not accusatory. Saying that,"I read that...what do you think" is much better than, "You're garb's wrong". We can learn and have fun at the same time without getting at other people's throats. musing Ines Carmen Maria de Freitas From: "Maureen S. O'Brien" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: African-Europeans in period -- illo Date: Sat, 07 Dec 1996 00:04:10 -0800 Organization: Dayton Network Access Company First, everyone in the SCA should get a close look at "The Medieval Woman Illuminated Calendar" put out by Workman. It has many excellent enlargements of interesting details, and each month covers a different subject. Anyway, the month of August has a picture of a lady of African heritage. She's in the small picture at the top left of the lower page of the month. The book she's from is _Les Secrets de l'histoire naturelle contenant les merveilles et choses me/morables du monde._, and I think I see a beast in the woods behind the ladies. The black lady seems to be telling another lady not to whimper, but YMMV. I like her outfit and hat very much. Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: bq676 at torfree.net (Kristine E. Maitland) Subject: Abid -- black military Organization: Toronto Free-Net Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 23:05:43 GMT Now on to the business of blacks in the military. I'm going to quote directly here: from J. O. Hunwick. "Blacks in the Mediterranean World: introduction to a Neglected Aspect of the African Diaspora." in _Slavery and Abolition: a journal of comparative studies_ 13:1 (April 1992) "Black slave troops were first introduced into Egypt during the period of the Turkish governor, Ahmad b. Tulun (868-84)...In the following century, the Ikhshidids, sucessors to the Tulunids, also employed black troops, while under their successors, the Fatamids (969-1171), large battalions of black troops were raised to counterbalance the powerful Berber and Turkish contingents...on several occasions the Turks and Berbers united against the blacks. In the final and greatest clash (1169) an estimated 50 000 black troops fought valiantely against their hostile collegues in arms before being defeat and driven out of Cairo to seek refuge in southern Egypt. The Fatimids successors, the Ayyubids, did not revive the tradition of using black troops..." "In North Africa and Andalusia both African and European slave troops were used, the Africans being called by the generic name _sudan_ (blacks)... Black troops were first used under the Aghlabid dynasty of Ifriqiya (roughly modrn Tunisia) in the ninth century...The need here, as with Turks in Bagdad and blacks in Egypts at a similar period, was to counteract the potentially rebellious tendiencies of local troops by created a corps with had no local attachments and which was made up of men who owed their very existance to the ruler and hence whose loyalty could be counted on..." "In the 'farther Maghrib' (roughly modern Morocco), black troops are not in evidence until the reign of the Alomoravid ruler Yusuf b. Tashfin (1061-1106) who established a bodyguard of some two thousand, as well as a corps of European slave troops recruited in Spain. The Almoravids's successors, the Almohads, also made use of black troops to a limited extent..." At a later date, I can tell you about the Battle of the Zanj... Inez Rosanera Ealdormere From: afn03234 at freenet2.afn.org (Ronald L. Charlotte) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Foreigners in Lisbon c. 1500 Date: 23 Feb 1997 14:01:39 GMT In <5ef2c4$ho at usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu>, jesst2+ at pitt.edu (Julia E Smith) wrote: > Certainly Portugal had been in contact with sub-Saharan Africa for some > time. Do we have any sense of the extent of the slave trade? Did free > blacks come as well? The Portuguese actually had an on-again, off-again relationship with the African Kingdom of Congo beginning in 1480s. People like Manuel I of Portugal tried to curb the european's urge to take slaves, and there was a fairly large amount of travel between the two kingdoms. Many of the children of the Congo nobility were educated in Portugal (one of the Congo King's sons became a bishop). In the end, the attempt to Christianize the Congo failed and the greed of the europeans accelerated the black slave trade. There was a pretty cordial period, though, between 1491 and 1529. -- al Thaalibi ---- An Crosaire, Trimaris Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL afn03234 at afn.org From: jarnott at sallie.wellesley.edu (Jennifer C. Arnott) Newsgroups: soc.history.living,rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Blacks in Renaissance Italy Date: 29 AUG 97 18:02:41 GMT Organization: Wellesley College Regarding blacks in Renaissance Italy: I took a seminar on Renaissance Florence last semester, and as part of the course work, we had to pick articles dealing with various subject areas. One of the ones I read had to do with slavery in Florence, which, if I remember correctly was in its prime between 1450ish and 1530. The slaves were principally from Turkey and Eastern Europe - but from non-Christian areas or groups However, many of them also came from Northern Africa. Slaves were most commonly young women <9-12 years old> who would be bought as nursemaids/ maids of all work - and yes, they would sometimes be concubines for the son of the house. It was not *incredibly* uncommon for these slaves - especially the women - to be released from slavery when their charges were grown, given a small lump sum,and left on their own. On the other hand, they were also often favourite family retainers... It was also pointed out that although the slaves *were* exposed to physical violence, it was at about the same level that the children of the family were - in other words, their master was equally brutal with both the slaves and his own blood. The article in question - and I'm sorry I don't have full information - was in Renaissance Quarterly. I want to say that the Volume number was either #30, or in that area, which puts it in the late 70s/early 80s, I think. If anyone is interested, next time I get a chance to go hunt the library stacks, I can see if I can get complete information. The title was something along the lines of "Slave ownership in