Wales-msg - 5/7/17

Welsh culture. avail. newsletters. Book recommendations. Welsh food. Welsh clothing.

NOTE: See also the files: fd-Wales-msg, England-msg, fd-Celts-msg, books-food-msg, languages-msg, Roman-Wales-bib.

************************************************************************
NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

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Thank you,
    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
************************************************************************

From: 70531.1217 at compuserve.com (EMRYS) 
Date: 28 Nov 89 01:26:00 GMT 
Organization: Society for Creative Anachronism 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca 
 
    Maelon ap Cirdan, Bard of Griffenwald, asked for some 
suggestions of books about Wales (stories and mythology)... I 
know this is a long time, but I've only just found out that I've 
been busily posting to the wrong address and my previous replies 
have been vanishing into the ether (not the net). Since I've not 
seen anyone else respond, I'll try again... 
 
    First off, it might simplify your search to know that the 
stories you are working with ARE the mythology of Wales. 
 
    Here's some suggestions:

The Four Ancient Books of Wales;  William F. Skene
Myths and Legends of the Celtic Race; T.W. Rolleston
Folklore of the British Isles; Elenor Hull
The White Goddess; Robert Graves
Women of the Celts; Jean Markale
A Celtic Miscellany; Kenneth Jackson
Origin and Growth of Religion (Celtic Heathendom); John Rhys
The Mystic Arts in Celtic Britain; Charles Squire
Celtic Myth and Legend; Charles Squire
The Mysteries of Britain; Lewis Spence
Celtic Mysteries; John Sharkey
Celtic Wonder Tales; Ella Young
Battles and Enchantments; Norreys Jephson O'Conor
Celtic Heritage; Alwyn and Brinley Rees
Fairy Faiths in Celtic Countries; Evans-Wentz
The Golden Bough; James Frazer

    As I have discussed with Arval in the past, I've found that
Cymric mythology tends to be harder to pin down than, say,
Irish. I expect this is due to the ...civilizing... influence of
all those ...visitors... to our lands (The winners always get to
write the history books, don't you know). I have also found that
different sources will very often contradict each other on
specific references, or a reference will only appear in one source,
with no corroboration. Because of this, I have to caution; if you can find
three or four separate sources that all agree on a particular
reference, then there is a reasonably good chance that this
reference might be fairly close to the truth. ...Keep this in
mind as you begin your research.

-Lord Emrys y Crwydryn
    Welsh Longbow Punk
    Occassional Bard to the Court of Baroness Elspeth of Bridge
    Unobtrusive Druid
(Emrys Atkinson   Compuserve 70531.1217)


From: jamesm at sco.COM (James M. Moore)
Date: 6 Dec 89 04:09:56 GMT
Organization: An tOibriu Santa Cruz
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

(Beth ydy "Cynfeirdd?"  Does dim yn y Geiriadur Mawr...)

First on the list of critical reading is the Mabinogion.  The two most
recent editions that I'm aware of are:

Ford, Patrick.  The Mabinogi and Other Medieval Welsh Tales.
        University of California Press, 1977.  [Available in
        paperback]

        Includes:
                Pwyll, Prince of Dyfed
                Branwen Daughter of Llyr
                Manawydan son of Llyr
                Math son of Mathonwy
                Lludd and Lleuelys
                Culhwch and Olwen
                The Tale of Gwion Bach and the Tale of Taliesin
                Cad Goddeu [Battle of the Trees]

Gantz, Jeffrey.  The Mabinogion.  Dorset Press, 1976.
        
        Includes:
                Pwyll, Prince of Dyfed
                Branwen Daughter of Llyr
                Manawydan son of Llyr
                Math son of Mathonwy
                Dream of Maxen
                Lludd and LLevelys
                How Culhwch Won Olwen
                Dream of Rhonabwy
                Owein, or the Countess of the Fountain
                Peredur Son of Evrawg
                Gereint and Enid

Also available is:

Jones, Gwyn, and Jones, Thomas.  The Mabinogion.  Dent, 1984.

This is invaluable for attempting to read the original manuscripts,
as it's a very literal translation of the material.  It's drawback is
the same as it's feature - if you aren't translating, I would not
choose this as my first exposure to Welsh, as it's written in very
stilted, formal, almost Victorian English.

If you're interested in reading the original, your essential companion
is:

Evans, D. Simon.  A Grammar of Middle Welsh.  Dublin Institute for
        Advanced Studies, 1976.

Be warned that this is what the title says:  a grammar.  It's not a
Middle Welsh tutorial.  Trying to learn Welsh from this would be like
learning C from K & R Appendix A.

The dictionary is:

Evans and Thomas, Y Geiriadur Mawr.  Gwasg Gomer, Llandysul, 1986.
        (Welsh - English and English - Welsh sections.)

I also suggest the introduction from:

Thomson, R. L.  Pwyll Pendeuic Dyuet.  Dublin Institute for Advanced
        Studies, 1980.

Try reading through some of the Welsh with Jones and Jones open to the
same page.  'Pwyll' (all of the Dublin Institue series, acutally) has
a fairly complete vocabulary.  Be warned, though, that one of the
fundamental parts of a Celtic language is initial mutation, and
consonants at the beginning of a word are not reliable.  For example,
the word for Wales is Cymru.  But 'to Wales' is 'i Gymru,' and 'in
Wales' is 'yng Nghymru.'  All of these would be in the dictionary only
under Cymru; you just have to know which mutation is taking place.
(It's not like Irish, where you keep the original letter and just add
to it.)

Hwyll,

James Moore                            | Nil aon .sig maith agam anois -
Santa Cruz Operation UNIX Tech Support |        B'fheidir an tseachtaine seo
jamesm at sco.com                         |                chugainn.


From: DICKSNR%QUCDN.BITNET at MITVMA.MIT.EDU ("Ross M. Dickson")
Date: 9 Dec 89 00:24:00 GMT
Organization: Society for Creative Anachronism
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Greetings unto those upon the Rialto from Sarra Graeham, through the good
services of her husband, Angus:

To change the subject considerably, all this talk about Welshness and re-
ferences for Welsh stories, etc. has reminded me that there are a lot of
Welsh personas out there.  I always, whenever it is within my power, try to
do scrolls for people according to their personas, but Welsh calligraphy
and manuscripts are devilishly difficult to get references on, mostly be-
cause the Welsh never did really flashy manuscript work; they were, as a
nation, much too poor.

I have, however, found two fairly good books on the subject.  Both are
rather ancient (a good researcher really ought to be at least a little sus-
picious of any reference dated before 1960, because the field of medieval
studies took a radical turn right about then), but have quite a few facsim-
ile pages, which never become dated.
     Lindsay, Wallace M., _Early Welsh Script_, J.Parker & Co., 1917.
     Denholm-Young, Noel, _Handwriting in England and Wales_, University
          of Wales Press, Cardiff, 1954.

In general, the Welsh were at least a hundred years in development behind
the rest of the British Isles, which were almost that far behind the conti-
nent.  For a Welsh persona prior to about 1200, the Insular Majescule and
Miniscule hands of the Irish and Anglo-Saxons are appropriate, with less
embellishment.  In the 13th Century, they started to develop a very ideo-
syncratic hand (those Welsh always had to be different :-) based on Gothic.
It is an extremely beautiful script, written with a thick nib on a backwards
slant and with very few serifs, but they had virtually no illumination to
go along with it, maybe a simple, one-colour capital at the beginning of a
division of text.  When done well, I think that this style would make a
lovely AoA for a Welsh persona.

     Sarra Graeham, Canton of Greyfells   |   Heather Fraser
     Crown Principality of Ealdormere     |   Kingston, ON, CANADA


From: mittle at watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Date: 13 Dec 91 18:52:31 GMT
Organization: IBM T. J. Watson Research

Greetings from Arval!  I recommend to your attention "The Brothers of
Gwynedd Quartet," by Edith Pargeter.  This book, available in soft-cover,
is a collection of four novels recounting the life of Llywelyn ap Griffith,
Prince of Wales, and his wars with England, his involvement with the
Baron's Revolt, and his efforts to unify Wales.  It is a fictional account,
from the point of view of his personal secretary, but Pargeter has brought
the period to life with her normal skill and excellent research.  Pargeter
also writes as Ellis Peters, and is the author of the Brother Cadfael
mysteries.  

The four books in the quartet are available separately, but there's
something lovely about having them all in one volume, and being able to
read through without pause to find the next book.  

        Arval.


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Welsh Info Please?
From: eric-smith at ksc.nasa.gov (Eric C. Smith)
Date: 23 Jul 93 10:37:02 EST
Organization: NASA/KSC

betel at camelot.bradley.edu (Robert Crawford) wrote:
> 	Well, after hanging around the SCA relatively passively for a
> year, I've decided to get more involved. My first order is persona
> research...
> 
> 	I've decided on late 11th, early 12th century Wales. I've done
> some research, and have a good idea of the social structure and the
> political goings-on of the period. Now I need to find information on
> clothing, diet, and so on.
> 
> 	Could anyone steer me towards some good sources? I'm also
> looking for names. :-)

'A Journey Through Wales' and 'A Description of Wales' by Gerald of Wales,
Geraldus Cambrensus?.  The first book was written in the late 12th century
and chronicles a trip the Gerald made with the then Bishop of Cantebury,
can't recall his name, for the purpose of recruiting welsh folk for the
crusades.  There are some real good first hand observations.  

Gerald was Welsh/Norman by birth, and tried to live in both worlds.  
***************************************************************************
* Eric C. Smith                 |       |Lord Maredudd Cymysglyd ap Cynan *
* NASA/DL-ESS-21                |       |Kingdom of Trimaris              *
* Kennedy Space Center FL, 32899|       |Shire Starhaven,Hospitaler       *
* eric-smith at ksc.nasa.gov       |       |Poet Laureate, Trimaris          *
***************************************************************************


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle at watson.ibm.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)
Subject: Re: Welsh Info Please?
Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1993 15:28:43 GMT
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research

> I've decided on late 11th, early 12th century Wales... Could anyone
> steer me towards some good sources? I'm also 

> 'A Journey Through Wales' and 'A Description of Wales' by Gerald of Wales

Excellent suggestions, Maredudd.  These are available in translation from
Penguin Books.
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord                                   mittle at watson.ibm.com


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: steffan at world.std.com (Steven H Mesnick)
Subject: Re: Welsh Info Please?
Organization: The World Public Access UNIX, Brookline, MA
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1993 05:30:23 GMT

Yes, if you're contemplating a Welsh persona, start with Geraldus Cambrensis
and the Mabinogion. I also recommend anything by Mistress Keridwen ferch
Morgan Glasfryn, who has written much on Welsh persona-development, including
articles in Heraldic Symposia Proceedings, a recent Compleat Anachronist,
and publishes a journal of Welsh persona-development called Y Camamseriad.
Unfortunately I don't have her address at hand at the moment, but I'm sure 
*someone* on this bridge does.
 

From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Welsh word
Date: 22 Oct 1993 15:44:15 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

<bilyji at rpi.edu> wrote:
>Can anyone tell me the Welsh word for badger?

Ever heard of the heraldic term "brock" used for badgers? Well, they borrowed
 it from Welsh. The Welsh word is "broch" (pronounced with a "hard" ch, as in  
Scottish "loch"). It's a particularly ancient word, appearing as part of
compound given names as early as some Gaulish examples. (The name "Brochfael"
means "great badger".)

>	A friend of mine wants to know and neither of us have Welsh>English 
>dictionaries. Which brings up the next question, is there such an item?

Certainly there is such an item. How much money do you want to spend?
The standard Welsh/English dictionary (which runs around $30 as I recall
 is the "Geiriadur Mawr" ("Big Dictionary") ISBN 0-85088-462-4 or 
0-7154-0543-8 (don't ask my why it has two listed). The Cadillac model is
the Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru (University of Wales Dictionary) which is set
up along the lines of the OED, costs several hundred dollars and has only
been issued through Ll at this point.

>	Can anyone recommend a good method of learning Welsh?

Spoken or literary? There are several reasonable tape courses for the former.
For the latter, I'm rather fond of the original "Teach Yourself Welsh" book
(ISBN 0-340-05829-3) but you may have to find it in a second-hand store at
this point.

>	I give unto thee my thanks for thine assistance.
>					-Elkor ap Gregorson.
>
For more details, e-mail me privately and I'll deluge you with information.

Keridwen ferch Morgan Glasfryn; West, Mists, Mists
Heather Rose Jones hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu


From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Call for Welsh Research
Date: 28 Oct 1993 14:58:58 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

I'm looking for articles to publish in my annual journal of Welsh
research ("Y Camamseriad"). Virtually any subject is fair game as
long as it has a Welsh connection, falls within the SCA period,
and is well-researched. I'm especially interested in research
with a practical application. I'm also looking for book reviews,
special-subject bibliographies, original prose and poetry in
Welsh styles, and art. Reprints cheerfully accepted. No length
limitations (published articles have ranged from one to eighty
pages). My deadline for submissions is around June, so there's no
particular hurry, but I'd love to hear queries from interested
parties. If you have a subject but few resources, I may be able
to help you with research materials or at least reading lists.
 
e-mail me at hrjones.uclink.berkeley.edu
Keridwen ferch Morgan Glasfryn


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ral at netcom.com (Rebecca LeDock)
Subject: Libraries with Welsh collections
Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 01:24:22 GMT

I am currently scouring Net catalogs of libraries containing collections 
of materials on Wales.  I have many library addresses; but would like to 
concentrate first on those libraries known to have large collections of 
Welsh materials.  I an already working on all libraries in Wales 
including the National Library of Wales.  I have also completed the 
collections of the Universities of Wales, Wisconsin (Madison), Michigan 
(Ann Arbor), Harvard and Princeton. as well as most of the University 
System of Georgia and Florida, and the Bryn Mawr-Swarthmore Colleges.  

Are there schools (or on-line public libraries) out there with large 
collections that I should hit next?

This is not an idle project; I publish a bibliography of books of 
interest to SCA-ers on Wales, and one on Scotland.  The Wales 
bibliography is available to anyone interested; e-mail me with your 
address for a copy.  Since it is currently 87 pages (8 point Helvetica; 
double columns, it comes U.S. Post Office.

Baroness Rebecca of Twywn
Barony of the South Downs, Meridies
ral at netcom.com


From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Libraries with Welsh collections
Date: 29 Oct 1994 06:13:24 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

Rebecca LeDock (ral at netcom.com) wrote:
: I am currently scouring Net catalogs of libraries containing collections 
: of materials on Wales.  I have many library addresses; but would like to 
...
: Are there schools (or on-line public libraries) out there with large 
: collections that I should hit next?

Definitely check out the UC Berkeley library. The on-line catalog isn't 
entirely complete -- I keep running into books on the shelves that aren't 
in it -- but it's a start. We probably have the biggest collection of 
Welsh material in this half of the continent.

: This is not an idle project; I publish a bibliography of books of 
: interest to SCA-ers on Wales, and one on Scotland.  The Wales 
: bibliography is available to anyone interested; e-mail me with your 
: address for a copy.  Since it is currently 87 pages (8 point Helvetica; 
: double columns, it comes U.S. Post Office.

Is it available in electronic format?

Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn


From: Heather Rose Jones (1/9/95)
To: Mark Harris
RE>novice mundane historian needs help!

> My persona is not Welsh, but if you have an overview I'd love to see
> what you have. I do have friends with Welsh personas. If you could give
> me more information about what you've published and prices some of them
> may be interested.

See below -- thanks for asking.

Tangwystyl
------------------------
THIS IS AN ABRIDGED ELECTRONIC VERSION OF THE HARPY MUSIC CATALOG
(most recently updated 8/5/94)
 
                    ORDERING INFORMATION
 
Order from:
 
Harpy Music
5838 Fremont St. #2
Oakland CA 94608-2612
(510) 654-6635
 
Calif. residents _must_ add sales tax (to the subtotal before
shipping is added).
 
Shipping:
 
U.S. $.50 per $5 or part thereof
Canada $1.00 per $5 or part thereof
Elsewhere $1.25 per $5 or part thereof
 
Payment by check or money order to Harpy Music - US FUNDS ONLY
PLEASE!
 
Indicate clearly what address you want things shipped to.
All orders will be shipped book rate (4th class) except for
cassette tapes which are shipped 1st class. 
_________________________________________________________________
 
Y Camamseriad (A Journal of Welsh Research for the SCA)
     Scholarly and practical research relevant to Welsh personae.
     A forum for original research on any topic that might be of
     interest to those trying to create a Welsh persona in the
     Society for Creative Anachronism or similar organizations.
     Although this is a periodical, advance subscriptions are not
     available. Issued annually. Submissions welcome!
 
Volume 1 (1992) 162pp $13.50
     Conversational Medieval Welsh, The Cywydd, An Introduction 
     to the Welsh Language, Medieval Welsh Titles, Welsh Name
     Formation, Names and Naming Practices in the Merioneth Lay
     Subsidy Roll (1282-3), Names and Naming Practices in Some
     North Pembrokeshire Toll Books (1599-1603), Medieval Welsh
     Cookery, plus original poetry and fiction, reviews,
     mail-order sources, and more.
 
Volume 2 (1993) 176pp $13.50
     Medieval Welsh Clothing - pre 1300, Welsh Scroll Texts, On
     Blazoning Armory in Medieval Welsh, Non-Roman Writing
     Systems for Welsh, Welsh Animal Names, A Welsh Card Game,
     Welsh Games, plus original poetry, and more.
 
Volume 3 (1994) 84pp $13.50
     Welsh Households for the SCA, Period Welsh Models for SCA
     Households and the Nomenclature Thereof, Domestic
     Architecture in Medieval Wales, Utensils in Medieval Wales,
     The Welsh Vernacular Hand of the 13th and 14th Centuries,
     Welsh Illumination, Welsh Decorated Capitals, The First
     Thousand Years of British Names [i.e., Romano-British names,
     Old Welsh names, early Irish names in Britain].
 
                        [end of catalog]

======================================================================


From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Welsh Kilts
Date: 7 Jun 1995 18:55:05 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

ingrid larson (ilarson at bgnet.bgsu.edu) wrote:

: I've heard mention of Welsh kilts from my Lady, whose net access I borrow 
: to write this, and from a few of you on here.  One gentle mentioned that 
: they were solid colors...I believe green and blue were noted 
: specifically.  Does anyone have any more info on this subject?  If I am 
: going to show my legs off at war this year, I'd like to get as close to 
: authentic as possible...;>

I've done fairly extensive research into the history of Welsh clothing in 
period and I have found no evidence for anything that might be called a 
"Welsh kilt". In the 18th century, when Lady Llanover was encouraging 
"Welsh folk costume" she sometimes had her male servants wear an outfit 
including a kilt, but it is generally accepted that she invented this 
style by analogy with Scottish dress. I believe that some modern Welsh 
folk dance troupes have the men wearing kilts, probably derived from the 
previous item. I'd say that if you want to get as close to authentic as 
possible, forget about "Welsh kilts".

Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn


From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Help with welsh persona
Date: 7 Jun 1995 19:37:20 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

Morgandark (morgandark at aol.com) wrote:
: I am working on creating a late 1500's welsh persona and need help with a
: last name.  Any suggestions or pointers to references would be
: appreciated.

For the late 16th century, you have a lot of options in format, if not in 
content. This was the period when the fixed surnames mandated by English 
law were beginning to replace the older ad hoc patronymic system. So you 
can use an old-style "ap X" surname (and have it refer either to your 
actual father or to some earlier generation at this point); an Anglicized 
"coalesced" form such as "Bowen" (ab Owen); an English-style s-possesive 
patronym such as "Evans"; or simply a plain given name (also originating 
in a patronym). Surnames derived from descriptive nicknames are also 
prevalent, although only a small number of the previous variety are 
common (such as "Coch" (red), "Vychan" (small/junior), etc.). 
Occupational and locative surnames are rare in Welsh at this period (and 
thus in modern times), but not unheard of. The major difference in 
substance (as opposed to form) of the Welsh names of this period is due 
to the fact that English given names have largely replace the ones of 
Welsh origin, and a small handful of names dominate the scene. In one set 
of late 16th century records from Pembrokeshire, the top ten (men's) 
names in order of popularity were: John, David, Thomas, William, Ieuan, 
Rhys, Gruffudd, Lewis, Phillip, and Jenkin. In total, in this document, 
only 23% of the given names were of Welsh origin.

"Welsh Surnames" by Morgan & Morgan has a great deal of information for 
Welsh surnames during this period. If you want a more structural 
analysis, at least for one particular region at one timepoint, try my 
analysis of the aforementioned records "Names and Naming Practices in 
Some North Pembrokeshire Toll Books (1599-1603)", published in the 1992 
Heralds Proceedings or in "Y Camamseriad" #1.

Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn
hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu


From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Celtic Tent Info
Date: 16 Jun 1995 18:37:41 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

Madoc (NASH_JOHN/HPBRIT_C6 at hpcpbla.bri.hp.com) wrote:
: 	We have been trying to find evidence of Welsh tents but
:   have so far drawn a blank. Believe me, we have had far more than
:   a cursory search.
: 	It would appear that the Welsh teulu were semi-transient,
:   moving there cattle from lowland to highland depending on the
:   season, and we assume that they had proper housing in each location.
: 	The King and his household would lead an almost nomadic
:   lifestyle, travelling from place to place. The duties of the 
:   peasants included the building and maintenance of several halls
:   for the kings visits.
:         Even on campaign, the chances were that the brenin's warband
:  could rely on these halls up to a point.

: 	So, there you go. No tents in Wales during our period ( 900-1066)
:   Except the ones used by Viking traders I expect.

You can find literary _references_ to tents in medieval Wales. (Not in 
pre-1066 Wales, I'll admit -- but then you can't find primary literary 
evidence for much of _anything_ in pre-1066 Wales because the manuscripts 
just don't exist.)

The most convenient source for this is the entries in the "Geiriadur 
Prifysgol Cymru" for the words "pabell", "pall", and "lluest". The first 
is a borrowing of the same root as "pavillion", the second is also taken 
from Latin from "palla" (mantle, cloak) possibly suggesting the 
make-shift origin of some examples, while the last shows its 
origin in the most likely derivation from "llu" (army, host of men) + 
"gwest" (lodging, hospitality, shelter).

13th c. (a poem in the Book of Aneirin) - rac PEBYLL madawc "in front of 
Madog's tent"

14th c. (Brut y Tywysogion, a Welsh chronicle) - y kyuodes ... Maredud ac 
Ywein ... yn anssynhwyrus oc eu PEBYLL heb gyweiraw eu bydin "Maredudd 
and Owein arose insensibly(?) from their tents without readying their army"

c.1200 (the Chirk Codex of the Welsh laws) - ebrenyn adely opob 
myleyntref dyn amarch abuyall ygueneuthur LLUESTEU "the king is entitled 
to have from each villein-town a man with a horse and an axe to make 
tents/shelters"

13th c. (the History of Gruffudd ap Cynan) - LLUESTEU y dywededigyon 
vrenhined "tents/shelters of the aforementined kings"

14th c. (a poem from the Red Book of Hergest) - LLUEST gadwallawn arydon 
"tent/shelter of Cadwallon <unknown>"

c. 1300 (various poems form the Hedregadredd ms.) - y BEBYLL y byll y 
ball coch (to pavillions, to ??, to a red tent); Eil ywr llall or pall 
pell (second is the other from the far tent)

14th c. (the tale of Branwen) - Nyt ymywn ty ydoydynt namyn ymywn PALLEU 
(they were not within a house, but within tents); achyweiraw y PEBYLLAU 
ar PALLEU awnaethant udunt ar ureint kyweirdeb yneuad (and they prepared 
the pavillions and the tents for them in the manner of preparing the hall)

There are also the derived verbs "lluestu" (to lodge temporarily in the 
open or in tents, to camp, esp. of troops) and "pebyllio" (to pitch a 
tent, encamp).

1160 (a poem) - Pei byw llary lleissiawn / Ni LUESTAI wyned ym mherfed 
edeirniawn "While Llary Lleission lives, Gwynedd shall not camp in the 
middle of Edeirnion"

12th c. (poem) - Rhag pyrth Penfro yn PEBYLLIAW (tenting before the gates 
of Penfro)

13th c. (History of Gruffudd ap Cynan) - en e cantref hvnnv y 
LLUESTASSANT wythnos "in that cantref they camped for a week"; urth henne 
e LLUESTWS ac y PEBYLLYUS ... em Mur Castell "because of that, he camped 
and tented ... in Mur Castell"

13th c. (Llyfr Colan - one of the law tracts) - E brennyn a dyly o pob 
tayauctref ban el y lluyd gur a buyall y LLUESTU ydau. "The king is 
entitled to have from each villein-town, when he would go to battle, a 
man with an axe to make camp for him"

I have deliberately omitted examples that are either translated or 
largely derived from religious or other non-Welsh sources, on the 
assumption that the tents could have been in the original. So what does 
this tell us? Well, the medieval Welsh were familiar with tents and used 
them, largely in the context of war, but also on peaceable occasions when 
more room was needed. Tent poles were most likely cut on site (thus, the 
man with the axe) and the fabric in some cases bore enough resemblence to 
a cloak (either in form or function) to take its name from that item. Not 
a _great_ deal of help, but it's something.

OK, OK, I'll expand it into an article. Are you happy now?

Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn
(who should have been at work over an hour ago, but this got really 
interesting!)


From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: New Member research (HELP!!!!)
Date: 9 Sep 1995 23:27:46 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

RhonddaL (rhonddal at aol.com) wrote:
:      I've only recently joined the SCA and my Persona is Elizabeathan
: Welsh. I know the dress and some Elizabeathan history. My problem is my
: local library is small and books on this period are almost limited to old
: romances.      Is there a catalog of books to research? Someone in my
: Shire suggested "Barnes and Noble". 
:       Also is there any books in particular that will be helpful in
: developing my persona and knowledge of 16th century England and Wales?
:       I am currently half way through Rosalind Miles "I ELIZABETH". It's a
: start.

:            Cariadwyn Shockley (m.k.a. Rhondda Lake)

First suggestion: when you ask for help, mention the nature of the 
information you want in your header. I might not necessarily read a 
generic "help - new member" message, but I'll arrow right in on anything 
with "Wales" or "Welsh" in the header.

If you've resigned yourself to spending money on books (which it sounds 
like you'll have to), you probably want to pick up a catalog from the 
University of Wales Press. You can get their catalog (and order their 
books) through:

Ford & Bailie PO Box 138, Belmont MA 02178

(but you have to specifically request the U. of Wales Press catalog to 
get it)

In this, you will find titles such as "Elizabethan Wales - The Social 
Scene", "The Gentry of South-West Wales 1540-1640", "Tudor Wales (Welsh 
History and Its Sources series)" and any number of general Welsh history 
books. 

Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn


From: vincenti at mars.superlink.net (William Vincenti)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: FYI - WWW Welsh sources
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 21:09:25 GMT

http://nlsvmss.aber.ac.uk/manu.html
> National Library of Wales
> 
> Department of Manuscripts and Records
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> The Department of Manuscripts and Records holds the main collection
> of Welsh manuscripts, Public Records, including the Great Session
> records for Wales (1542-1830), the diocesan records of the Church in
> Wales, nonconformist archives, extensive estate records and
> University of Wales higher degree dissertations. The Department also
> collects the literary papers of Welsh and Anglo-Welsh writers and
> artists. The Political Archive safeguards the papers of Welsh
> politicians, political parties and other groups. The Department also
> holds the archives of semi-public bodies such as the Welsh Arts
> Council, Welsh National Opera and the National Eisteddfod.
> 
> The Department also maintains an Index to Welsh Poetry


From: sally at rovanion.demon.co.uk (Sally Sinclair)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca,soc.culture.welsh,soc.history.war.misc
Subject: Re: Archers, 400AD, Britain
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 19:34:52 GMT

In message <4d3hEHA7GYJxEwzw at dafyddpj.demon.co.uk> Dafydd Price Jones wrote:
> That fount of knowledge, Microflake's Encarta, assures us that archery
> goes as far back as the early Egyptians, and that the Romans were
> adept with arrows.
> The invention of the longbow is credited to the Welsh by Macmillan's
> encyclopaedia, and may have been used in battle for the first time in
> 1298.
> 
> I have only snippets of information.  Is there a historian in the group?

Archery was around in the European Stone-Age, as witnessed by the many
different types of flint arrowheads discovered, some of which are barbed and
tanged. The earliest finds come from France and date from the Upper Paleolithic
(from 38,000BC).

Gerald of Wales (Geraldus Cambrensis), writing in 1188, describes the men of
Gwent as being most skilled in warfare, particularly with the bow.

"The bows they use are not made of horn, nor of sapwood, nor yet of yew. The
Welsh carve their bows out of the dwarf elm-trees in the forest. They are
nothing much to look at, not even rubbed smooth, but left in a rough and
unpolished state. Still, they are firm and strong. You could not shoot far
with them, but they are powerful enough to inflict serious wounds in a close
fight." (translation by Lewis Thorpe).

Gerald also describes a soldier being pinned to his horse by arrows, and of a
3-inch-thick oak door in Abergavenny castle pierced by arrows during an attack.
He also mentions that in North Wales, the spear is the preferred weapon. 
-- 
Sally


From: lisa <mite1 at aloha.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Welsh Course (was Given name Glen)
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 16:26:48 +0000
Organization: Hawaii OnLine - Honolulu, HI

Here's one web site I look at sometimes for Welsh language info.

http://www.cs.brown.edu/fun/welsh/


From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: "Goodwoman"
Date: 23 Jul 1996 17:35:09 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

One of the interesting things I discovered when researching medieval Welsh
titles and forms of address is that they appear to have had a form of
address for "someone you just met whose rank you don't know but whom you
want to be polite to".  In a significant number of instances in the
literature, we find a character addressing someone as "unben" (feminine
"unbennes")** at first, when the person's identity and rank are unknown,
and then switching to a more specific form of address after introductions.

** pronounced (roughly) "EEN-ben" and "een-BEN-ess"

Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn


From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Welsh Research Journal
Date: 6 Aug 1996 01:12:40 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

Issue #4 of "Y Camamseriad: a journal of Welsh research for the SCA" is
now available. The contents include:

Names:

A Consideration of Pictish Names
Welsh Names in France in the Late 14th Century
Women's Names in the First Half of 16th Century Wales - With
   Particular Atttention to the Surnames of Married Women
Names and Naming Practices in the Anglesey Submissions of 1406
A Sampling of Names from the Heraldic Visitations of Wales

Practical Culture:

Some Data on the Use and Nature of Tents in Medieval Wales
Further Notes on Oatcakes

History and Society:

The Linguistic Writings of Gerald de Barri
Period Welsh Versions of Some Common Prayers and Related Material
Some Period Welsh Inspirations for SCA Ceremonies
The Education of a Medieval Welsh Bard
A Short Bibliography of Religion in Medieval Wales

Please e-mail me privately for ordering information and a full catalog of
previous issues. This publication is also available at Pennsic from
Potboiler Press.

Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn
hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu


From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: welsh music / storytelling help
Date: 3 Nov 1996 01:27:56 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

Tony Garcia (bard at csnsys.com) wrote:
: I'm looking for some information about the proper period (say about 1300) form 
: of Welsh storytelling and music. As for the music, some specific examples to 
: set a style would be good.
: Any references would be appreciated

For storytelling, you've hit an ideal period. The majority of the Medieval
Welsh literary tales that we have access to were written down in the 13th
century. A few show evidence of having been composed/set-down earlier
(e.g. "Culhwch and Olwen") and a few others are only available from
significantly later manuscripts (e.g. the legend of Taliessin).

The main corpus of material that you want to be familiar with are the four
"branches" of the Mabinogi, the four "native" tales, and the three
Arthurian romances. There are several translations of these available and
everyone has their own favorite among them. 

But there are a number of other storytelling resources that should not be
overlooked, simply because they are harder to find. Giraldus Cambrensis'
writings about Wales from the late 12th century ("The Journey Through
Wales/ The Description of Wales") include a number of short narratives
that he heard and recorded on his travels. There are also a half-dozen or
so Welsh-related stories in Walter Map's "Courtiers' Trifles". The Welsh
chronicles -- specifically the "Brut y Tywysogion" -- contain a large
number of descriptions of historical events that could be worked up into
stories with little effort.

I'm afraid the musical situation is much more depressing. With the
exception of some brief and extremely vague descriptions of Welsh music,
we have no indication of what that music was _like_ before the late 16th
century -- and even then the information is sketchy and includes a lot of
guesswork. W.S. Gwynn Williams, in his work "Welsh National Music and
Dance", covers just about all of what is known about period Welsh music --
and it isn't much at all.

Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn


From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: 8th cent. books
Date: 5 Dec 1996 01:46:05 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

Andrea Luxenburg (Edl at mail.albany.net) wrote:
: I am trying to put together a library of books my persona might have 
: read.  We are talking about a 7/8th century Welshwoman with a convent 
: education.  My late husband was somewhat of a scholar (second sons can 
: get away with that) who studied in Ireland, along with my brother.  We 
: spent several years in Byzantium (Fulfillment of a vow took us there; the 
: books kept us there.) before returning to his home in Gaul.  I now live 
: in Northumbria, and am good friends with the local abbess, who is kind 
: enough to share her library with me.  I read Latin, Welsh, and 
: Anglo-Saxon, and my husband had translated some Greek works for me.  (I 
: also speak Frankish, after a fashion, but I doubt there is anything worth 
: reading in that tongue.)  So any suggestions on what I might have read 
: would be most appreciated.  (Then I can try to find them and read them!)

Fascinating angle on persona development! By expanding the net to include
Ireland and Northumbria, you've gone beyond what I'm comfortable
speculating on, but I'll make some stabs at the topic.

W.M. Lindsay's "Early Welsh Script" lists several _surviving_ Welsh
manuscripts that date from this approximate period. (Needless to say, they
would be only the tip of the iceberg.) They are primarily in Latin, with
occasional glosses in Welsh and other languages. Various copies of the
gospels head the list. Other works include formulas for calculating
Easter, works by Martianus Capella, Boethius, and even Ovid's "Ars
Amatoria"(!). 

For the Irish angle, you might look at Thomas Cahill's "How the Irish
Saved Civilization" (although I must admit I haven't read it yet).

Other random thoughts: Gildas and Bede, definitely, but you're too early
for Nennius; grammatical works such as Donatus. This is fun -- I'd
probably be doing better if I weren't running a fever currently.

Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn


From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: The Throne of Scone
Date: 7 Dec 1996 20:07:09 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

Medwyn (bard at themall.net) wrote:
:    djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:

: >(Personally I would like to see a real United Kingdom wherein the
: >King of England and the King of Scotland and the King of Ireland
: >and the Prince of Wales and maybe the Duke of Cornwall ...

: And just why can't Wales have a King? If I recall correctly, the Prince a 
: Wales is a title bestowed by an English monarch.

Historically, Wales never had "a" king -- back when rulers in Wales were
still calling themselves kings, the concept of a unified political
structure would have horrified them. By the time that Welsh rulers were
beginning to be successful in introducing the concept of political unity,
it was politically expedient to refer to themselves more modestly as
"princes" in deference to their theoretical subordination to the English
crown. And it was this later model that was mirrored by the English
construct of "Prince of Wales" as a title for the heir-apparent. There's a
very interesting article on the socio-political context of how native
Welsh nobility referred to themselves and each other: "Kings, Lords, and
Princes: the Nomenclature of Authority in Thirteeth-century Wales" by
Dafydd Jenkins in The Bulletin of the Board of Celtic Studies (Vol.XXVI,
Part IV).

Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn


From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Welsh Agriculture
Date: 10 Mar 1997 05:00:38 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

Eric C. Smith (maredudd at blackroot.org) wrote:
: I am in search of references for period Welsh Agricultural practices.

: Specifically, I am looking for info about Dark Ages Wales (circa 800)  but
: I would apreciate ANY references anything from the High Middle Ages
: earlier.

A good place to start might be the multi-volume "An Agrarian History of
England and Wales".

Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn

(P.S. So ... might this turn into something I could publish in my
journal?)


From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Welsh Agriculture
Date: 11 Mar 1997 04:26:24 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

S.Thomas (morgan at in-tch.com) wrote:
: Heather Rose Jones wrote:
: > A good place to start might be the multi-volume "An Agrarian History of
: > England and Wales".

: Do you have a name of an author (or maybe there are many, since you said
: "multi-volume.)?

I was posting from school, so that was from memory. I don't actually own
the series ... yet <pout>, but one volume that I can find in a
bibliography lists a J. Thirsk as editor. It's published in Cambridge in
1967 if that helps. In addition, I'll note that Wendy Davies' "Wales in
the Early Middle Ages" has a decent overview on the subject and many more
specially references in her bibliography.

: On the second topic - I have Vol. 1,2 &3 of your journal. Are ther more?
: (hope,hope)

Volume 4 is available -- haven't gotten around to sending out the updated
catalog yet.

Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn


From: maredudd at blackroot.org (Eric C. Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Welsh Agriculture
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 09:37:55 -0500
Organization: Blackroot Ent.

Heather Rose Jones wrote:
> A good place to start might be the multi-volume "An Agrarian History of
> England and Wales".
> 
> Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn
> 
> (P.S. So ... might this turn into something I could publish in my
> journal?)

Yes Tangwystyl, it just might turn into something for your journal.  I'm
looking for 'The Agrarian History...' now.  (I'm on the phone with Barnes
& Nobel as I type.  They  say its $160.00 for the single volume edition. 
Maybe the local library has it.)

Thanks Tangwystyl
Maredudd


From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Please help with Welsh names
Date: 18 Mar 1997 04:51:00 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

Mike Davies (mdavies at sprynet.com) wrote:
: I guess I'm looking for help with a given name,
: phonetic pronunciation for my surname and references for " fleshing-out" my
: persona.  Any help would be greatly appreciated, thank you.

That's going to depend to a large extent on what aspects you want fleshed
out. Are you looking for general historical information or everyday
details? For a start, I'd tend to recommend a general history -- David
Walker's "Medieval Wales" (Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0-521-31153-5)
is a good start for this period, having the additional advantage of being
fairly cheap and currently in print. (A more comprehensive Welsh history
is "A History of Wales" by John Davies, recently out in paperback from
Penguin Books.) And I'd supplement that for everyday life with a very
readable translation of the medieval Welsh law corpus: "The Law of Hywel
Dda" by Dafydd Jenkins (Gomer Press, ISBN 0-86383-277-6). From there, it's
a matter of seeking out more specialized information.

Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn


From: mcarson at cybercomm.net (Michael Carson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Please help with Welsh names
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 06:12:30 GMT

hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones) wrote:
>That's going to depend to a large extent on what aspects you want fleshed
>out. Are you looking for general historical information or everyday
>details? For a start, I'd tend to recommend a general history -- David
>Walker's "Medieval Wales" (Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0-521-31153-5)
>is a good start for this period, having the additional advantage of being
>fairly cheap and currently in print. (A more comprehensive Welsh history
>is "A History of Wales" by John Davies, recently out in paperback from
>Penguin Books.) And I'd supplement that for everyday life with a very
>readable translation of the medieval Welsh law corpus: "The Law of Hywel
>Dda" by Dafydd Jenkins (Gomer Press, ISBN 0-86383-277-6). From there, it's
>a matter of seeking out more specialized information.

        How about Gerald of Wales' "The Journey Through Wales" and "The
Description of Wales" (Penguin 0-14-044339-8?  As long as the reader
realises that Gerald writes throught the dual lenses of being a
churchman and his politics (he seems to have favoured an English
conquest of Wales as a way to bring 'civilization' to them).  I
haven't found a better source written in period.
        Also, how about your journals?  They've been a big help to me.  Are
they still available?  Is there/will there be a volume 4?

Cheers,
Rhys ab Ieuan
mka Michael Carson
http://blackstar.litenet.com/~mcarson/carillion


From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Please help with Welsh names
Date: 24 Mar 1997 06:36:02 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

Michael Carson (mcarson at cybercomm.net) wrote:
: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones) wrote:

<some advice about books for starting work on a Welsh persona>

:       How about Gerald of Wales' "The Journey Through Wales" and "The
: Description of Wales" (Penguin 0-14-044339-8?  As long as the reader
: realises that Gerald writes throught the dual lenses of being a
: churchman and his politics (he seems to have favoured an English
: conquest of Wales as a way to bring 'civilization' to them).  I
: haven't found a better source written in period.

Also good -- although you _do_ need to read critically and understand
Gerald's biases. In many ways, Gerald is better for the individual details
than for any larger picture.

:       Also, how about your journals?  They've been a big help to me.  Are
: they still available?  Is there/will there be a volume 4?

I do so love it when people give me an opening for a plug. Issue #4 is
available, with articles on such things as period Welsh references to
tents, source material on Welsh bards, period Welsh versions of some
common prayers, a discussion of possible period Welsh models for SCA
ceremonies ... and of course, the ubiquitous name research.

Contact me privately for ordering information.

Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn
hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu


From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: welsh costuming
Date: 6 Jul 1997 03:27:20 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

MorganLFey (morganlfey at aol.com) wrote:
: my persona is female welsh 1327.  i have been playing for a little over 7
: years, and i would at long last like to make an attempt at actually
: recreating the persona i chose so long ago, rather than continuing to just
: wear whatever is comfortble, clean, and easy to make.

: what i am asking is if there is anyone out there who knows of a book or
: books of *costuming* (preferably with some semblance of a pattern as i am
: a seamstress, but alas, not a miracle worker)  ideas befitting my country
: and time.  if said book(s) is/are available at my local Media Play, Barnes
: and Nobles or other such bookstores, or if i need to order something
: special off the net.  i must admit that i have been exceedingly lazy in
: attempting to research this, but i would hope that all my brother (and
: sister) welsh women (and men) would overlook that minor iniquity and
: assist me in my endeavor.  thanks be to all.

When I researched my booklet on Welsh costume, I primarily confined myself
to the pre-1300 period -- for the simple reason that, after the fall of
the last of the native Welsh rulers in the late 13th century, the Welsh
nobility looked toward England for fashions in material culture.  To the
best of my research, for the upper classes, there were no substantial
differences between Welsh and English costume from perhaps the 13th
century or so onward.  There are some descriptions of Welsh lower-class
clothing from the 13th century that suggest there may have been
identifiably "Welsh" characteristics to their dress (in matters such as
materials and the lack of certain items of expected clothing) but it is
difficult to tell which of these characteristics are a mattern of
nationality and which are a matter of class or economic status.

I would say that for the 14th century you are fairly safe in extrapolating
from contemporary English fashions -- perhaps allowing for a slight
time-lag in diffusion and probably avoiding the really "high-end"
materials and sticking to native wools and linens.

Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn


From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: welsh costuming
Date: 6 Jul 1997 18:51:33 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

MorganLFey (morganlfey at aol.com) wrote:
: tangwystyl verch morgant glasvryn wrote:

: >after the fall of
: >the last of the native Welsh rulers in the late 13th century, the Welsh
: >nobility 

: Is this in refrence to the Llewyle familys loss to edward longshanks in
: 1280 -something?  if so, do you have any books or other sources on this
: topic?  i would love to research this "war".

The cut-off is generally thought of as the death of Llywelyn ap Gruffudd
in 1282, ending the native dynasty of Gwynedd. The process wasn't nearly
as clear-cut and tidy as that would make it seem, however. The native
dynasty of Powys, for example, continued in power after that, taking the
English-style surname of "de la Pole" and tying themselves closely to
England, both politically and socially.

If you're interested in the whole, slow process of the 13th century
political changes in Wales, something like "The Age of Conquest" by R.R.
Davies (Oxford University Press) is good. For the "end-game" covering the
last quarter of the 13th century, try "The Welsh Wars of Edward I" by John
E. Morris (Combined Books). Both are currently in print in paperback.

Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn


From: Phillip Stallcup <STALPL at integris-health.com>
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG
Date: Fri, 08 Aug 1997 16:25:03 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: ANST - Welsh/English Dictionary

	I found a nice site with a Welsh/English English/Welsh dictionary, and
I thought some of you might be interested.

http://www.cs.brown.edu/fun/welsh/LexiconForms.html

Llygoden Llwyd
Barony of Wiesenfeuer
mka Phillip Stallcup
stalpl at integris-health.com


From: Ed Luxenburg <edl at albany.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: 13th century Welsh
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 20:31:40 -0700
Organization: AlbanyNet - E-mail info at albany.net

Eddie Philpott wrote:
> Please help !!!!! I am new to the SCA and I am begining research for my
> persona . I am thinking about 13th century Welsh . As of yet I am unable
> to find very much info on this period .
> 
>         Eddie Philpott  ( soon to be Kedivor hopefuly !)
>         e-mail eddiep at kvnet.org

It's actually 12th cent, but certainly relevant:  The Journey Through
Wales/The Description of Wales by Gerald of Wales, available in
paperback from Penguin Books, ISBN 0-14-044339-8.  Probably out of
print, but worth looking for:  The Normans in South Wales (1070 - 1171;
still a litle early, but useful) by Lynn H Nelson, University of Texas
Press, 1966.  Fiction but very well researched: The Four Brothers of
Gwynnedd by Edith Pargeter.  Treat with caution as to details, but your
persona would  probably have been familiar with the stories: The
Mabinogion; History of the Kings of Britain by Geoffrey of Monmouth
(ISBN 0-14-044170-0); The Life of Merlin, also by Geoffrey of Monmouth.

Good reading!
Guendid Gosfot


From: Erik Dutton <edutton at worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: 13th century Welsh
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 21:38:22 -0400

Eddie Philpott wrote:
> Please help !!!!! I am new to the SCA and I am begining research for my
> persona . I am thinking about 13th century Welsh . As of yet I am unable
> to find very much info on this period .

John Davies wrote the monumental (~700 pp.) "Hanes Cymru" a few years
ago, which has just been translated into English as "A History of
Wales."  Everything you could possibly want to know... for now <g>. Your
local library should have a copy.

Title: A History of Wales
Author: John Davies
Publisher: Allen Lane/The Penguin Press
ISBN: 0-713-99098-8

Rhodri ap Hywel


From: "Trevor Barker" <barkert at delete.logica.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: The Welsh
Date: 28 Aug 1998 12:16:47 GMT
Organization: Logica UK Limited

dehring <dehring at iserv.net> wrote
> A friend of mine is interested in having a welsh persona and have theses
> questions I volunteered to help scourer the library to find answers and
> I’m drawing a blank can you guys help;

I'll try, with the usual caveat that I'm not an expert.

> He is in the 11th. cen. What makes him different then a English man other
> then the language?

Wales prior to the Norman invasion in 1066 would have been relatively
isolated from England - inasmuch as any adjoining countries can be said to
be "isolated".

Starting in about 1067, the Normans decided to add Wales to their demesne,
but this didn't prove easy as the Welsh were on their home ground and were
good at "guerilla" fighting (though not good at pitched battles).  Hence,
certain Norman barons were given fairly free rein to do what they liked in
the Welsh March (the south-eastern corner of Wales) so long as they kept
the Welsh in check.

Over the course of centuries, particularly the 13th, the English gained
control of Wales.

However, in the 11th Century, Wales would have been a distinct country with
a Celtic heritage.

> Clothes are they the same as English or was there things that when he
> steeped over the border some one knew at first glance that was a
Welshman.

To our modern eyes, there's little difference between the clothing of most
northern europeans of the 11th Century.  (This may be partly due to our
ignorance of the exact details of clothing in the period, as there aren't
many sources to draw from.)

I daresay real 11th Century people would have been able to pick up on small
regional differences in style of cut, decoration, jewellery, etc. that
would give clues as to whether someone was Danish, English, Welsh, or
whatever.  Or, to be more accurate, whether someone was "foreign" or not.

> would he be able to read and write ?

I don't believe the Welsh were any more or less literate than others of a
similar social group.  (Clerics would have been literate, peasants
wouldn't, and so on.)

> Was the food all the same as England?

Pass.

> Thankyou to anyone who responds and if you have any books or paintings to
> cite this would be helpful as Owen is really into his persona development.

One of the best descriptions available of Wales and the Welsh people can be
found in "The Journey through Wales" and "The Description of Wales" by
Gerald of Wales.  I use the Penguin Classics translation, ISBN
0-14-044339-8.  Gerald was writing at the end of the 12th Century, but he
may be the closest useful primary source you'll find.

I'm transferring my own "Journey through Wales" to the Web at the moment.
It's moderately scholarly, and hopefully amusing.  URL:
http://www.weylea.demon.co.uk/farisles/itincamb/index.htm

Trevor
(Ifor of Gwent, Brother Cellarer to the "Abbey" of Barwell-in-the-Fens in
the Principality of The Far Isles)


From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: The Welsh
Date: 28 Aug 1998 15:48:57 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

dehring (dehring at iserv.net) wrote:
: A friend of mine is interested in having a welsh persona and have theses
: questions I volunteered to help scourer the library to find answers and IM
: drawing a blank can you guys help;
: He is in the 11th. cen. What makes him different then a English man other
: then the language?
: Clothes are they the same as English or was there things that when he
: steeped over the border some one knew at first glance that was a Welshman.
: would he be able to read and write ? 
: Was the food all the same as England?

It's a difficult question to answer, mostly because the available sources
are so few. Written sources for the 11th century consist of a handful of
poetry, some historical chronicles, and a few miscellaneous things like
land charters. In addition, you have works from a later date (mostly 13th
century) which almost certainly date in some form from the 11th century or
previous (e.g., a small number of literary tales and the law codes) but
also include later material that must be sifted out. Then you have written
sources from the 12th century (such as Giraldus Cambrensis and Walter
Map), whose observations about Wales can be extrapolated backward to some
extent. Archaeological evidence for this period does exist, although the
impression I get is that it's rather scanty -- and getting at it generally
requires reading through lots of obscure journals. Pictorial sources for
11th century Wales are non-existant.

Yes, there were probably differences in clothing -- but what were they? In
the 12th century, both Gerald and Walter seem to consider the use of the
'brychan' (a rectangular cloak) to be both characteristically and
peculiarly Welsh, but Anglo-Saxon fashions could include a rectangular
cloak, so it is less certain whether this would have comprised as
significant a difference in the 11th century. Native Welsh sources tend to
use generic words like 'pais' (tunic) or 'gwisg' (garment) that give no
clue to the precise cut or style (and, indeed, change in application over
the centuries).

For food, again our nearest, most detailed information comes from Gerald
(who, among other things, describes meals as being served on a thin flat
bread instead of on plates), but the laws have a surprisingly large amount
of information on the types of food available. As to how different the
food was from English food -- again, I don't think we know enough details
of either to make strong claims (although the pair of books entitled
"Anglo-Saxon Food and Drink" gives a lot of useful comparative material
from the English side).

Literacy is a question that cuts across all cultural boundaries at this
period. Yes, there were literate people in 11th century Wales, but like
everywhere else, they were a fairly small minority, and mostly consisted
of people associated with the church.

A short starting reading list for this period might be:

Davies, Wendy. "Wales in the Early Middle Ages." Leicester Universtiy
Press, 1982 (ISBN 0-7185-1235-9)

Jenkins, Dafydd. "The Law of Hywel Dda." Gomer Press, 1986. (ISBN
0-86383-277-6)

Gerald of Wales. "The Journey Through Wales; The Description of Wales."
Penguin Books, 1978. (ISBN 0-14-044-339-8)

But to apply the information here in a practical fashion to SCA artifacts
and activities, you're also going to have to do a certain amount of
extrapolating from other, better-documented cultures.

Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn


From: maechyll at aol.com (Maechyll)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Welsh sources needed
Date: 12 Oct 1998 03:13:04 GMT

"I share your pain".  One of the more practical sources I've found is, in fact,
published by the SCA.  It is a Compleat Anachronist that appeared a few years
back entitled" A Welsh Miscellany".  As back issues of CA are frequently
available, you may be able to track one down.  As I recall (my copy is packed
away in a box somewhere at the moment--we're moving), there is a fairly decent
bibliography included that may be of some help to you.

Good luck, and happy hunting--

Sir Maechyll of Maelienydd


Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 21:49:35 -0700
From: Brett and Karen Williams <brettwi at earthlink.net>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Tunic necklines

Kirsten Garner wrote:
> > I would also like to know more about 12th c. Welsh clothing, but
> > for women.
> > Is there anything for women in 'Cut My Cote', Thora?  I've never had much
> > luck finding anything on medieval Wales, except the usual castle pics.
[...]
> However, I'd recommend
> highly getting hold of all four volumes of Y Camamserid if you've got a
> Welsh persona - they're amazingly helpful and well-researched. :) That one
> article alone is worth the price of Volume 2. :) I think they're running
> about $12-$15 dollars a volume now. :)
>
> Mistress Tangwystl is also Mistress Keridwen who wrote the Compleat
> Anachronist #66 - Welsh Miscellany, for anyone out there who's curious. :)
>
> Julian ferch Rhys

Tangwystl also sells "Medieval Welsh Clothing to 1300", which, according
to the copyright notice, "this material appeared previously in a
slightly differen form as "Medieval Welsh Clothing to 1300" in Y
Camamseriad vol.2 published by Harpy Music."

I got my copy at AlterYears. The research into fabric colors and types
is fascinating.

ciorstan


From: indyroom at aol.com (INDYROOM)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Welsh help
Date: 23 Jun 1999 23:56:17 GMT

Forth C. Wales was still plunged primarily into that transitional Romano-Brit
Period.

A good reference would be the Osprey Man-At-Arms Series Title "Arthur and the
Anglo-Saxon Wars". That's a bit at the end of the period you seek, but it's a
good starting point, with refs and all in back.
If you need more, email me, and I'll clunk upstairs and scrounge through my
library....
The Madog


From: hrjones at socrates.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Welsh help
Date: 24 Jun 1999 00:32:22 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

BoskSCA (bosksca at aol.com) wrote:  
:      I have been looking in earnest for some information on 4th Century Wales
: and have come up with little or nothing out of it. Is there anyone that knows
: of a good reliable source I could get my hands on or look up on the web?
: Anything would be of help.

For that early a period, you're going to have to accept that there may
simply not be much direct information available for your desired focus,
and that you may have to do a fair amount of extrapolation in order to
fill out the concrete details of a persona or kit.

For the 4th century, you're more likely to find useful information by
looking for the heading "Roman Britain" rather than looking specifically
for Welsh material. While there is a certain amount of information
available on culture and artifacts in the region that became Wales in this
period, the relative unity of culture throughout most of Britain at that
time means that you can do a great deal of extrapolation from
better-documented sites and material in other areas of Britain. Even in
sources focussing specifically on Wales (as a geographic region) you may
find that the terms "Wales" and "Welsh" aren't applied this early -- the
linguistic and cultural distinctions between that region and the rest of
Britain hadn't developed enough yet at that period to make such a
distinction useful.

I'd hardly know where to start in recommending sources on Roman Britain in
general -- there are many excellant ones, and they'll lead you to more. 
For a single one to start you off, try Stephen Johnson's "Later Roman
Britain", which is currently in print (in the "Britain Before the
Conquest" series) and is a nice, swallowable lump focussed pretty solidly
on your period of interest. For archaeological material from this period
in Wales specifically, there is a significant amount of material in
various issues of the journal _Archaeologia_Cambrensis_. I don't recall
running into any books proper on the topic of Roman Wales, and the era
tends to be scantily covered in more general books on Welsh history. 

Tangwystyl
*********************************************************
Heather Rose Jones         hrjones at socrates.berkeley.edu
**********************************************************


From: dbrummel at mungedoi.com (David H Brummel)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Welsh help
Date: 24 Jun 99 13:56:38 GMT
Organization: Lough na Dobharchu

Replying to a message of hrjones at socrates.berkeley.edu to All:

 h> BoskSCA (bosksca at aol.com) wrote:
 h> :
 h> :      I have been looking in earnest for some information on 4th
 h> :Century Wales
 h> : and have come up with little or nothing out of it. Is
 h> :there anyone that knows
 h> : of a good reliable source I could get my
 h> :hands on or look up on the web?
 h> : Anything would be of help.

 h> For that early a period, you're going to have to accept that there may
 h> simply not be much direct information available for your desired
 h> focus, and that you may have to do a fair amount of extrapolation in
 h> order to fill out the concrete details of a persona or kit.

 h> For the 4th century, you're more likely to find useful information by
 h> looking for the heading "Roman Britain" rather than looking
 h> specifically for Welsh material.
[snip]
 h> I'd hardly know where to start in recommending sources on Roman Britain
 h> in general -- there are many excellant ones, and they'll lead you to
 h> more.

There was a very nice series entitled "Peoples of Roman Britain" begun by
Duckworth (in the early 70s?) and continued by Alan Sutton.  According to one
endflap:

"The aim of this series is to give a comprehensive picture of the archaeology
of Roman Britain - the first Roman province to have been treated in this way.
Each volume covers a single <i>civitas</i>, considering it as a unit with its
own traditions, settlement patterns and resources and judging how these were
influenced by the impact of Roman institutions.  The authors are well-known
archaeologitst who have been actively engaged in fieldwork and research in the
regions concerned."

Books in the series that I know of are (books I have are indicated with a *):

- The Regni by Barry Cunliffe
- The Cornovii by Graham Webster
* The Trinovantes by Rosalind Dunnett
* The Coritani by Malcolm Todd
- The Parisi by Herman Ramm
* The Cantiaci by Alec Detsicas
- The Carvetii by Nicholas Higham and Barri Jones
* The Catuvellauni by Keith Branigan
* The Brigantes by Brian Hartley and Leon Fitts

The volumes in this series run in the 150-225 page range, have extensive
bibliographies, and seem to be well footnoted and indexed.

David H. Brummel


From: hrjones at socrates.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Welsh help
Date: 24 Jun 1999 18:39:08 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

David H Brummel (dbrummel at mungedoi.com) wrote:
: Replying to a message of hrjones at socrates.berkeley.edu to All:

:  h> For the 4th century, you're more likely to find useful information by
:  h> looking for the heading "Roman Britain" rather than looking
:  h> specifically for Welsh material.
: [snip]
:  h> I'd hardly know where to start in recommending sources on Roman Britain
:  h> in general -- there are many excellant ones, and they'll lead you to
:  h> more.

: There was a very nice series entitled "Peoples of Roman Britain" begun by
: Duckworth (in the early 70s?) and continued by Alan Sutton.  According to one
: endflap:

<snip>

Yes, a truly excellant series -- particularly if one of the volumes covers
the particular tribe/area you're interested in. (I was particularly
grateful to this series when researching some fiction set in 1st c.
Britain.) They're a _smidge_ on the technical/archaeological side, so not
what I'd normally recommend for general reading unless I knew the person
had a good general grounding and was looking for that particular angle on
the material.  I'll try to put together a more comprehensive bibliography
in the next day or so, since it's one I collect books on.

Tangwystyl
*********************************************************
Heather Rose Jones         hrjones at socrates.berkeley.edu
**********************************************************


From: Willer <historyman at hotbot.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Welsh Costume 12th Century
Date: Wed, 08 Sep 1999 22:51:59 -0500
Organization: Illinois State University

Try giving "Welsh Costume" by Ken Etheridge a try.

Gwyn ab Arddur wrote:
> I'm hoping someone can help me find a resource for Welsh clothing
> styles.  My local libraries have a few books that all cover English,
> German, French, Italian, but no Welsh references.  I am about to begin
> assembling the basics for clothing, and I want to be as accurate as I
> can.  I'll be making some standard t-tunics for my first events, but
> would like to get more elaborate later.
>
> Gwyn


From: hrjones at socrates.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Welsh Costume 12th Century
Date: 12 Sep 1999 16:47:18 GMT
Organization: University of California at Berkeley

I haven't seen the original posting yet, so I'll piggy-back on this one.

Willer (historyman at hotbot.com) wrote:
: Try giving "Welsh Costume" by Ken Etheridge a try.

Unfortunately, Ken Etheridge's book is completely useless for SCA
purposes, since it is concerned with the origins of the modern Welsh "folk
costume" which dates no earlier than the 18th century.

: Gwyn ab Arddur wrote:
: > I'm hoping someone can help me find a resource for Welsh clothing
: > styles.  My local libraries have a few books that all cover English,
: > German, French, Italian, but no Welsh references.  I am about to begin
: > assembling the basics for clothing, and I want to be as accurate as I
: > can.  I'll be making some standard t-tunics for my first events, but
: > would like to get more elaborate later.

The short answer is that there are very few aspects in which period Welsh
clothing was distinctive from that of its neighboring cultures.  The long
answer is addressed in a booklet I put together (titled "Medieval Welsh
Clothing to 1300") that presents and discusses what evidence I have been
able to find (both written and pictorial) on the title subject. The
booklet is available from Potboiler Press and from Alter Years, but not
currently from me, alas.

Tangwystyl
*********************************************************
Heather Rose Jones         hrjones at socrates.berkeley.edu
**********************************************************


Date: Sun, 24 Oct 1999 19:54:28 MST
From: "Caley Woulfe" <cwoulfe at life.edu>
Subject: ANST - Fw: [TY] more poems
To: "Ansteorran List" <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>

From: Jean Corbin <JCorbin at celticcat.com>
To: TY at reashelm.ce.utk.edu <TY at reashelm.ce.utk.edu>
Date: Friday, October 22, 1999 12:50 PM
Subject: [TY] more poems

>From: THLady Amarath Jean yr Raven (1/2 Welsh, 1/2 Irish)
>           who loves good poetry and songs,
>
>In my library, I have a trio of books that Ye might find of intrest,
>acquired only this year through that honorable establishment of Barnes and
>Noble.
>
>1.. "A History of Wales" (Davies, John)
>       IBNS # 0-713-99098-8.....718 pages; excellent  info. for
>       our personas during medieval times.
>
>2...."Strongholds and Sanctuaries, the Borderland of England and
>        Wales" (Peters, Ellis &  Morgan, Roy) ISBN# 0-7509-
>        0200-0 ....and/or ....9-780-750-902007...184 pages. Color
>         photos throughout of castles, abbeies, and churches, and
>         battlefields, rivers and caves and standing stones, etc.
>         History such as: " In the last stages of the war of 1282
>         Llewelyn had gone south into the region of Builth to try
>         and raise further allies, while his brother David held the
>         position in the north as well as he could. Not far from
>         these rocks (in the photo), wher the little River Edw
>         empties into the Wye under these rocks,   Llewelyn was
>         killed in the last throes of a fight that had declimated his
>         forces in his absence, a local man having betrayed to the
>         English a secret ford which enabled them to cross the river
>         undetected and surround the Welsh, who had expected
>         attack only by the bridge. After Llewelyn's death David,
>         so long uncertain in his loyalties, assumed the burden his
>         brother had left behind, and carried it faithfully to its
>         tragic end."
>
>3. ..."The Triumph Tree" (edited by Clancy, Thomas Owen)
>        ISBN# 0-86241-787-2 Scotland's earliest poetry ; 6th
>        century to 1350 A.D...Translated from Latin, Welsh,
>        Gaelic, Old English, and Norse..With a pronounciation
>        guide (Welsh and Gaelic) for words, place-names,  and
>        Personal-names.


From: hrjones at socrates.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Looking for sources for info on early period Welsh culture & garb
Date: 5 Nov 1999 18:38:02 GMT
Organization: University of California at Berkeley

hrjones at socrates.berkeley.edu wrote:
: KBennett (kbennett at tampabay.rr.com) wrote:
: : If anyone can recommend a good source for information on early-period (6th
: : century) Welsh culture, I would be extremely grateful. I've been unable to
: : find many sources for garb research for that culture & time period, and have
: : found none with illustrations of garb specific to that region. Please email
: : me since I probably won't get to check the postings until weeks from now.
: : email address is kbennett at tampabay.rr.com

: This response is basically a "bookmark" so I can find the thread again
: when I'm back home with my books.

Now, then, where was I? Sixth century Wales is an _extremely_ hard time
and place to research for an SCA persona -- the historian have a hard
enough time scraping together enough information to determine which of the
later-recorded kings of that period were real people and which ones were
entirely fictitious. A good, single-source introduction to the general
history and culture of 5-1th c. Wales is "Wales in the Early Middle Ages"
by Wendy Davies (Leicester University Press).

There is _no_ direct evidence on Welsh clothing of this period -- no
archaeological finds, no pictorial evidence, not even any solidly
contemporary descriptions. The best that can be managed is to take the
clothing of Roman Britain as a starting point, the very little evidence on
Welsh clothing from the early end of the high medieval period, the
developments of sub-Roman styles in France and similar places as a
possible parallel, and the clothing of Anglo-Saxon English as a probably
influence ... and then give it your best reasonable guess. But it isn't a
process that's going to work well if you're looking for a single source to
tell you "this is the Truth, this is exactly how to do it".

Tangwystyl
*********************************************************
Heather Rose Jones         hrjones at socrates.berkeley.edu
**********************************************************


From: "Britannia Webmaster" <webmaster at arthurian.freeuk.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Looking for sources for info on early period Welsh culture & garb
Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 23:10:29 GMT

You may want to have a look at our site for ideas on clothing/life of that
peiod, although not specifiacally welsh, it covers most things,
I believe there is an article somewher on the site about warfare in wales,
it was a while ago, I loaded that article onto our site

Matt Crosby
Britannia Webmaster
http://www.arthurian.freeuk.com


Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 19:55:13 EDT
From: Elysant at aol.com
Subject: SC - Re: OT Middle English letters, pronounciation, accents. 

<< > Also- infrequently- you might find a 'D',
 > capital or lower case, with a line through it. It is another symbol for
 > the 'th' sound and can be treated just like a thorn.

 Except the D is voiced and the thorn is not.  The difference between 
 Them and think.
  >>

For those of you interested in Welsh, this difference (voiced/unvoiced "th" 
sounds) is still kept in our language - the unvoiced "th" being written as 
"th", and the voiced "th" being written as "dd".  "Mynydd" (mountain) is 
pronounced "Muh-nith".

To tell the difference between voiced and unvoiced, we were taught in school 
in Britain that when one says the "voiced" "th", if one puts two fingers over 
one's Adam's Apple as one says the "th" sound, that there is a vibration 
felt. (e.g. "them"), whereas with the "unvoiced" "the"  (e.g. "think") - 
there is no vibration felt.

I also was someone who had the privilege of being able to listen to 
recordings of Middle English when I was doing my English "A" level curriculum 
years ago.  IIRC, the intonation sounded almost like a west country (of 
England) e.g. Somerset "burr", although I believe (again IIRC) I seem to 
remember being taught that the closest remnant to the pronunciation of Middle 
English that still exists in modern day English local accents and dialects is 
in Northhamptonshire and surrounding counties in a NW to WNW direction from 
London.  

Back to Period Cookery :-)

Elysant 
Who currently lives in Connecticut and hears that N.E. accent "ooaall" the 
time around here ;-)


Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 07:53:50 +0100
From: "Melanie Wilson" <MelanieWilson at bigfoot.com>
To: <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Re: Any Tudor Welsh out there ?

Thomas W. S. K.: TUDOR WALES. 1485-1603. 1st. Gomer Press 1983. Soft Cover.
Fine.  pp209.

UKP 12. 00. plus postage

Mel


From: lordxbrew at aol.comohwell (xaviar)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Date: 18 Jul 2000 05:23:28 GMT
Subject: learn Welsh online

http://www.cs.brown.edu/fun/welsh/home.html


From: lindahl at pbm.com (Greg Lindahl)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Period Welsh harp music
Date: 29 Oct 2000 21:57:49 GMT

For those of you interested in period Welsh harp music, the following
CD is an extremely excellent rendition of some of the music in the ap
Huw manuscript, which is the oldest known manuscript recording the
Welsh harp tradition. This CD is great for not only showing that the
Ap Huw stuff is quite playable (and much of it would make great music
to sing a ballad to), but also it's an excellent example of how music
has evolved between the 16th century and the 19th century. The "other
world" is a set of 18th/19th century welsh harp manuscripts. If you
play a few tracks of each for someone, and then play random tracks and
ask which century the piece is from, most people will be able to hear
the difference.

Taylor, William. Two Worlds of the Welsh Harp (CD). Dorian Recordings,
1999. Includes Gosteg Dafyyd Athro, Y ddigan y droell, Kaniad y gwynn
bibydd, Kaniad ystafell, Kaniad bach ar y gogower, and Kaingk Dafydd
Broffwyd. The other material on the CD comes from the volumes of
Edward Jones' _Musical and Poetical Relicks of the Welsh
Bards_.

For  more info on the ap Huw manuscript, please see:
http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/ap_huw/

-- Gregory Blount


From: DC <uboru at erols.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Welsh harp music
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 16:42:27 -0500

It's a good CD, though Taylor's translation of the manuscript is not
held to be absolutely correct by all scholars, there are other
interpretations available. But...I do love the sound of a bray harp.


From: Heather Rose Jones <hrjones at socrates.berkeley.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: 10th Century Welsh, looking to make Clothes, HELP
Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 11:42:08 -0700
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

Morvran ab Thomas of Cardiff wrote:
> I am new to the SCA and i have chosen 10th Century Welsh and am having
> trouble finding the Clothing and food and such of the time and all for
> that area, can anyone help me???
> 
> Morvran ab Thomas of Cardiff
> mka Jim

One of the reasons you're having trouble is that it's simply a very hard
culture-period combination to research.  Extremely little direct data,
and the indirect data needs to be used with care.  (An example of what I
mean by that:  the medieval Welsh law tracts include a fair amount of
information on clothing and food, but even though tradition has them
composed in the 10th century, the only surviving copies are 13th century
or later, and disentangling which details are relevant for which century
can be tricky.)

Despite the aforementioned difficulties, a good place to start _is_
Dafydd Jenkins' edition of the law tracts, "The Law of Hywel Dda" (Gomer
Press), which is quite readable although it helps to have some more
general historic context to put the information into.  Also as good
background for the early medieval period (although much less useful for
details of material culture) is "Wales in the Early Middle Ages" by
Wendy Davies (for whom I get to TA this coming semester <gloat>).

Tangwystyl
*********
Heather Rose Jones
hrjones at socrates.berkeley.edu
*********


From: "Deigryn" <lposavad at bellatlantic.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: 15th century irish clothing
Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 12:35:45 GMT

Heather Rose Jones wrote :
< To the best of my knowledge, there are no medieval archaeological
 garments surviving from Wales, nor do I know of any surviving artistic
 representations from Wales that indicate cut with that sort of
 precision.  If there is, in fact, evidence that the Moy gown is similar
 to cuts used in Wales, I would very much like to know it, because it
 would be vastly more practical information on the topic than I've
 managed to turn up in my own research.>

As it turns out, I contacted the Museum in Cariff via email as they
adverstised having extant clothing and this was their reply

"I am afraid that there are no pre 16th century Welsh articles of clothing in
our collections (or anywhere else as far as I know); a few  portraits exist
in the Art Department Collections, which may be of help to you; in terms of
accessories, the Department of Archaeology may be able to help you.
There are very few pieces of furniture of 16th century date or earlier."

Rainillt
Rainillt at yahoo.com


From: kmarsh at cox-internet.com
Date: October 20, 2004 2:15:56 PM CDT
To: bryn-gwlad at ansteorra.org
Subject: [Bryn-gwlad] Welsh history and songs

A few of the folks in the newcomer's household expressed an 
interest in Welsh personnae but were having some trouble 
finding information.  This may help.

The Web site at http://home.worldonline.dk/kmariboe/fgspwelsh.html 
includes a broad overview of Welsh history with citations to
several scholarly works and some snippets of early Welsh 
poetry.  Note that some of the information and some of the 
works cited are outdated in the eyes of current scholars, 
but the overview should provide you with some names and 
dates that you can research further if you wish.

For MIDI files and lyrics to traditional Welsh music see
http://www.newi.ac.uk/buckleyc/welshmidi/welshmusic.htm .  
A similar site at http://www.ligtel.com/~wales/Welshmusic.html
seems to have more english-language lyrics including those 
for the song "Myfanwy" which was undoubtedly written to our 
esteemed seneschal by a rejected suitor.  :)

Actually, I have no confidence that any of the songs on 
these two sites are pre-17th century.

I found citations with dates for a few songs from the 
medieval period, but I don't know what sources were used to
determine these dates:
Dau filgi (Two greyhounds) c.1470 
Claddu'r bardd o gariad (The burial of the lovesick bard) c.1340-1400 
Hiraeth am yr haf (Yearning for summer) c.1340-1400 

You can get them on a CD at http://www.claudiorecords.com/welshsongs.html

Maelgwyn Dda, your friendly neighborhood Librarian


From: <kcmarsh at suddenlink.net>
Date: March 18, 2008 1:29:23 PM CDT
To: Barony of Bryn Gwlad <bryn-gwlad at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Bryn-gwlad] Random Welsh book recommendation

---- Zach Most <clermont1348 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I got a random book recommendation from Amazon today, and it looks  
> like it might interest a number of Welsh/Celtic folks here:
> http://www.amazon.com/dp/0520253965/ref=pe_606_8640840_pe_ar_t1
>   Sorry to be a corporate shill.  Really, feel free to check it out  
> at a library.

There is a nice review of the book here: http:// 
repositories.cdlib.org/cmrs/comitatus/vol8/iss1/art5/

At http://libraryoftexas.org you can find additional reviews and  
identify nearby libraries that own the work including Austin Public,  
Baylor, UT Austin and Trinity University. You can get it by  
submitting an ILL request at your local library or online at  
libraryoftexas.org (log in using your TexShare ID that you got from  
your local library) or walk in to get it at UT with your TexShare  
borrower card.  Dont have a TexShare card?  You can get that at your  
local library as well.

Looks like something worth exploring.

Maelgwyn (paid government shill and program manager for the Library  
of Texas)


From: Roysen AriManna <glassrose_95 at yahoo.com>
Date: June 16, 2010 3:38:17 PM CDT
To: "Inc.Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA" <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Ansteorra] ISO help with Welsh

Found this wonderful site from the Oxford library that has 80 scanned manuscripts.  One is a 15th century Welsh text on medicine. Any suggestion on how to translate/ transcribe it?

Here is the website if it is not already in your bookmarks.
http://image.ox.ac.uk/

In Love & Light, AriManna  
aka Paula


From: Corinne Nye <hibiscus95 at hotmail.com>
Date: June 23, 2010 9:21:42 PM CDT
To: <stefan at florilegium.org>
Subject: Sut mae!

Greetings Stefan!  
 
At Tim's suggestion, here is the SSiW poster.  Please scroll down to read the email I sent out.  And please feel free to come check us out at www.SaySomethingInWelsh.com  :)  Diolch!


Subject: RE: Sut mae!
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 09:27:52 -0700
From: timj at sct.org
To: hibiscus95 at hotmail.com; info at 3barons.org; as at sca.org; eventform-help at eastkingdom.org; azwelsh at aol.com

I can certainly put up a note in my local library, but there is no simple list to distribute this sort of thing. I would suggest posting it to the Floregium
 
Best
Tim/Garraed
Society MoAS
 
Tim Jennings|Managing Director|206-859-4001
Seattle Children's Theatre | www.sct.org | 201 Thomas St. Seattle WA, 98109
 
From: Corinne Nye [mailto:hibiscus95 at hotmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 5:42 AM
To: info at 3barons.org; as at sca.org; eventform-help at eastkingdom.org; azwelsh at aol.com
Subject: Sut mae!
 
Greetings!
 
My online Welsh language group, SaySomethinginWelsh.com, is hoping to round out our map in America by getting people in all 50 states to join.  We are still missing members in Alaska, New Hampshire, New Jersey, Rhode Island, New Mexico, Wyoming, North Dakota, Maine, and West Virginia.
 
We are a free, online community of people who are interested in learning the ancient language at their own pace with easy downloadable lessons at the site and on iTunes.  We also have an extensive forum with volunteers at all levels to help, share experiences, and just to have a laugh.
 
Would it be possible for someone in your area to print our poster and distribute it?  We are asking libraries, stores, ren-faires, and anyone else we can think of to help us.  I've attached the poster for you to print at your convenience.  If you are not comfortable opening attachments, please feel free to email me and I will be happy to send it to you.
 
Please feel free to forward this email to anyone you know who would be willing to help in our efforts to keep this beautiful Celtic language alive.
 
Diolch yn fawr!
 
Corinne Nye

From: Corinne Nye <hibiscus95 at hotmail.com>
Date: June 23, 2010 9:21:42 PM CDT
To: <stefan at florilegium.org>
Subject: Sut mae!

Greetings Stefan!  
 
At Tim's suggestion, here is the SSiW poster.  Please scroll down to read the email I sent out.  And please feel free to come check us out at www.SaySomethingInWelsh.com  :)  Diolch!


Subject: RE: Sut mae!
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 09:27:52 -0700
From: timj at sct.org
To: hibiscus95 at hotmail.com; info at 3barons.org; as at sca.org; eventform-help at eastkingdom.org; azwelsh at aol.com

I can certainly put up a note in my local library, but there is no simple list to distribute this sort of thing. I would suggest posting it to the Floregium
 
Best
Tim/Garraed
Society MoAS
 
Tim Jennings|Managing Director|206-859-4001
Seattle Children's Theatre | www.sct.org | 201 Thomas St. Seattle WA, 98109
 
From: Corinne Nye [mailto:hibiscus95 at hotmail.com]

Sent: Monday, June 21, 2010 5:42 AM

To: info at 3barons.org; as at sca.org; eventform-help at eastkingdom.org; azwelsh at aol.com

Subject: Sut mae!
 
Greetings!
 
My online Welsh language group, SaySomethinginWelsh.com, is hoping to round out our map in America by getting people in all 50 states to join.  We are still missing members in Alaska, New Hampshire, New Jersey, Rhode Island, New Mexico, Wyoming, North Dakota, Maine, and West Virginia.
 
We are a free, online community of people who are interested in learning the ancient language at their own pace with easy downloadable lessons at the site and on iTunes.  We also have an extensive forum with volunteers at all levels to help, share experiences, and just to have a laugh.
 
Would it be possible for someone in your area to print our poster and distribute it?  We are asking libraries, stores, ren-faires, and anyone else we can think of to help us.  I've attached the poster for you to print at your convenience.  If you are not comfortable opening attachments, please feel free to email me and I will be happy to send it to you.
 
Please feel free to forward this email to anyone you know who would be willing to help in our efforts to keep this beautiful Celtic language alive.
 
Diolch yn fawr!
 
Corinne Nye

Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2013 13:10:54 +0000
From: "Groff, Garth (ggg9y)" <ggg9y at virginia.edu>
To: "Shire of Isenfir (isenfir at atlantia.scalists.org)"
	<isenfir at atlantia.scalists.org>, "Merry Rose
	(atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org)"
	<atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>
Subject: [MR] Illuminated Manuscripts Online

Noble Friends, Scribes, the Welsh, and even Scots (!):

The National Library of Wales has just digitized their copy of the BOOK ANEIRIN: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-mid-wales-25259178 . This small 13th century book of poems describes (among other things) how the brave Scots of Edinburgh fought against the Saxons at the Battle of Catterick (ca. 600 CE), all but three of their number dying. Now unless you read Welsh, this un-illuminated book is a bit boring, though it is nice to know it still exists.

Instead consider that the National Library of Wales has a considerable number of similar manuscripts available online, some of them gloriously illuminated: http://www.llgc.org.uk/index.php?id=4730 . If you click on the titles at left, you will be presented with a choice of viewing the manuscript, or, if present, the illuminations as a gallery. The images appear as thumbnails, but they can be blown up to large size by a mouse click. For example, the HISTORY OF THE KINGS and ROMAN DE LA ROSE have lovely illustrations. The SHERBROOKE MISSAL has but a few illuminations, mostly in the capitals and along the borders (quite charming), but includes musical notation that could be transcribed and played.

This collection is a priceless resource for Scadians, especially scribes looking for inspiration. Have fun!

Lord Mungo Napier, The Archer of Mallard Lodge


From the FB "SCA" group:

Tom Gervasi	 
9:53pm Nov 10, 2016

Welsh sounds a lot better than it looks :-) I think the spelling was because non welsh speakers were trying to write down a language that contained sounds not in english, so they had to get creative and make up symbols and dipthongs to represent the exotic sounds of the Welsh tongue, likewise with Gaelic. BTW Welsh is not the same as Gaelic, its a different branch of the overall Celtic language family. Really pedantic, but Gaelic speakers are " Q" Celts, while Welsh, or Brythonic Celts, are " P" Celts. For example, " Son of" in Gaelic is " Mac" or more correctly " Maq" and in Welsh, its " Map" The languages are similar but different. Brythonic Celtic tongues include the Welsh ( Cymri) Welsh is actually a name the Saxons called them meaning "strangers") and Breton, from ( strangely enough) Brittany. Bretons were originally Britons who migrated to the rocky peninsula across the channel to escape Saxon invaders.

<the end>
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