Russia-msg - 12/19/09 Russian and Kievian Culture and language. NOTE: See also the files: fd-Russia-msg, Rus-Handbook-art, Rus-women-art, Russia-bib, Kiev-Slavery-art, Mongols-msg, Mongl-Mission-art, cl-Russia-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: kpayne at heartland.bradley.EDU (Kevin Payne) Date: 22 Oct 91 04:06:12 GMT Greetings to the Rialto from the long-absent Nikolai Kyrilovich Khorobrit! Now that I have caught up on my reading, I should like to post a few thoughts. A couple of weeks back there was some discussion about the role of the Scandanavian races in Russia, and of chivalry in Russia. Someone at the time stated that the Swedes conquered Russia, and I thought I'd better correct this, as well as some other items that my study and research show to be misinformation. My sources are: Volkoff, Vladimir, "Vladimir, The Russian Viking", Overlook Press, Woodstock, New York, 1984 Fennell,.J.L.L., "Ivan the Great of Moscow", Macmillan & Co., New York, 1961 Cross, Samuel Hazzard and Sherbowitz-Wetzor, Olgerd, trans. and ed., "The Russian Primary Chronicle - Laurentian Text", Medieval Academey of America, Cambridge, Massachusetts, 1953 The story is that about 800 A.D. or so some of the Slavic tribes of the northern Russian plains (the town of Novgorod in particular is named), despaired of the great upheavals and lack of law and order in their lands, and so sought the aid of a group of Viking princes (Varangian Russes), the chiefest of which was Rurik. This Rurik became the first Prince of Novgorod and is said to have founded the first royal house of Russia (and there are only two: the Rurikids, who died out in the 17th century and were replaced by the Romanovs). In a nutshell, that is the legend of the "calling of the princes", and Russian history is generally traced from this point. But there is sizable disagreement over the nature of the Rus. One school (Norman) asserts that the Rus were a Scandanavian tribe related closely to the Swedes, Angles, and Varangians who came into Russia and imprinted their values and beliefs on the Russian nobility. The other (Slavic) refutes this, claiming instead that the Rus were Slavic in origin, with perhaps a smattering of Scandanavian elements. All of my sources disagree on the origin of the Rus. The Primary Chronicle claims that Rurik and his two brothers were from across the Balticand were indeed Vikings; archaelogical evidence seems in many cases to point to the Slavic theory. In any case, there WAS siginificant contact between the Slavic tribes and Scandanavian groups, especially the Swedes. The Varangians are known to have traveled the river routes from the Baltic to the Black Sea to Constantinople regularly during the 9th through 11th centuries, and the first Russian empire centered on Kiev was a great trade city on those trade routes. The Arabs too were involved in trade through the region. Throw in the almost incessant incursions of nomads from the east (Polovtsians, Khazars, eventually the Mongols) and you have a real melting pot. HOWEVER, Russia was never "conquered" by the Swedes or any Scandanavian group, nor by the Byzantine Empire, and indeed, never by the many nomadic tribes until the Mongol Horde in the 13th century. In fact, the Viking element (assuming that it existed and influenced the Slavic folk) appears to have done what it did in places such as England: i.e., merged into the mainstream of the "common" people. The second question was about the nature of chivalry in Eastern Europe, Russia in particular. Given the close contact between the Scandanavians, the fact that the cities of northern Russia (Novgorod and Pskov in particular) were members of loose trading confederations based in Germany (eventually the Hanseatic League), and Kievan Russia maintained distinct ties with Byzantium as well as the lands westward of Kiev, it is obvious that Russia did not exist in a vacuum. I haven't done any specific reserach on chivalry in Russia, but can point out that the "bogatyri" were great knights who participated in fantastic adventures and apparently strove to be brave, strong, and defenders of the weak. Many of them are legendary (Ilya Murametz, Svyatogor the Brave), but later ones are better documented and more historical in nature. I think it is probably safe to say that there was some conception of chivalry in Russia, but it was uniquely suited to the unique challenges of the land. These facts are as true as I can relate them. The opinions are my own. Correspondence with someone more educated in Russian history and culture is appreciated. Corrections appreciated as well. For good historical fiction partly about period Russia, read "Russka" by Edward Rutherfurd, 1991 from Crown. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Nikolai Kyrilovich Khorobrit, Bard Reluctant Pursuivant Far Reaches, Middle Kingdom ------------------------------------------------------------------ From: cav at bmerh364.BNR.CA (Rick Cavasin) Date: 5 Dec 91 21:56:01 GMT Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd. Unto Alison MacDermot does Lord Balderik send his greetings. For some interesting info on personal communications, see Novgorod the Great, M.W. Thompson Frederick A. Praeger, New York A large volume of birch bark manuscripts (spanning the middle ages) have been unearthed in Novgorod. They are mostly 'spent' messages. They include personal communication between family members, messages from landowners to overseers, children's lessons and doodles, etc. The script is an old form of cyrillic. Regards, Balderik From: fnklshtn at axp1.acf.nyu.edu Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Russian sources?? Date: 14 Nov 93 02:17:30 GMT Organization: New York University, NY, NY bpung at phoenix.cs.uga.edu (Benjamin Pung) writes: >I am a relatively new member, though I've been acquainted with the SCA for >years. I'm working on the name/persona thing and am looking for good sources >for applicable Russian history, customs, costume, etc. >Any help would be greatly appreciated. > >Ben Pung >Barony of Bryn Madoc, Meridies The Russian Chronicle - a history written as things happened (ends, I believe, in 12th century). Read the fairytales and Sagas. I think they were collected and written down after the revolution but the peasants were fairly "backward" -- Peter the Great modernized the nobles by bringing in European culture but the nobles basically became French rather than combining it to make a new Russian culture, thus the peasants retained what had been before. Watch the old soviet movies - "Alexander Nevski" "Ivan Grosny" "Andrei Rublev": I noticed the credits on Andrei Rublev - they included three history experts as opposed to one costume designer. I believe the same may be true for the other two movies though "Alexander Nevski" is a propaganda piece as is "Ivan Grosny" (though not as blatant). Andrei Rublev is probably the best one - a poignant, no-holds bared portrait of 15th century Russia (through the eyes of the artist - Rublev) Nahum From: mcs at unlinfo.unl.edu (M Straatmann) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: kvas reference Date: 29 Nov 1993 22:46:24 GMT Organization: University of Nebraska--Lincoln In my last post discussing kvas with Balderik, I promised the reference and then promptly forgot to include it. Here it is: Bread and Salt A social and economic history of food and drink in Russia. R.E.F. Smith and David Christian Cambridge University Press 1984 ISBN - 0 521 25812X Good book, misha From: goldschm at ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Paul Goldschmidt) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Russian Names Date: 30 Nov 1993 22:36:35 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana I seem to have missed the thread on this subject, but I heard that my artcuile from the symposium was mentioned and I thought that I would mention that a revised version of it is being carried by Folump Enterprises, 805 E Green, Urbana IL 61801. The cost (I think) is $5, but you can write for info. I also have a list of cities and towns in medieval Russia which I can send to interested parties at cost, and I am working on a list of Russian medieval saints (good for documenting Christian names). Meanwhile I have been slaving away on a dictionary of given names (with around 12K entries so far -- heading to 40k). I'm even starting work on a much expanded piece on Russian medieval grammar for Onomastics. You can reach me at GOLDSCHM at vmd.cso.uiuc.edu (which is not the address I am writing from). I'm hardly ever on the Rialto, so don't try writing me here. -- Paul Wickenden of Thanet From: pwgg7938 at uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Paul W Goldschmidt) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Russian Names III Date: 1 Dec 1993 01:07:07 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana finally found the thread. I feel obliged to respond to the person who said that Russian had not changed that much since 17th century. I wiowould agree that it has b not changed much sinmce 1720, but that is post period. Older Russia texts (11-15th century, for example) are usually in Old Church Slabonic (Slavonic -- I was transliterating) [God, I hate the editor on this machine! Anyway....] The old docs are in OCS which is VERY different from Modern Russian. Never mind that some period manuscripts are written in latin letters (which is VERY painful to read). As for the Names....well, they are also very different. The modern form (given name-patronymic-surname) exists, but it not common. Patronymic grammar was also highly variable (I've documented at least a dozen different tyoxxxxx tupes [arg!!!] TYPES [!] of patronymics). If you want to know about this, write me on my OTHER account (the one with the friedly -- fried.....FRIENDLY!!! editor that does not make me look so bad :< :" :' goldschm at vmd.cso.uiuc.edu -- Paul Wickenden of Thanet From: sclark at epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Clark) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Kievan Rus' Bibliography..... Date: 25 Jan 1994 15:45:42 -0500 Organization: EPAS Computing Facility, University of Toronto Greetings.... And now, a month after I first said I'd post it, here's my introductory bibliography for the study of early Russia-- Cross, S.H. and Sherbovitz-Wetzor, O.P., eds. _The Russian Primary Chronicle, Laurentian Text. Cambridge, MA, 1953. Fedotov, G. _The Russian Religious Mind: Vol I: Kievan Christianity: The Tenth to the Thirteenth Centures_. Cambridge, MA, 1946. Fr.Chirovsky, Nicholas. _An Introduction to Ukrainian History_, Vol.I. New York, 1981. Michell, R. and Forbes, N. trans. _The Chronicle of Novgorod, 1016-1471._ Camden Third Series, Vol. XXV. london 1914. Riasanovsky, Nicholas V. _A History of Russia_. New York, 1984. Thompson, M.W. _Novgorod the Great_. London, 1967. Tikhirmirov, M. N. _The Towns of Ancient Rus'._ Moscow, 1959. Tkach, Yuri. _History of Ukrainian Costume._ Melbourne, 1980. Vernadsky, George. _Kievan Russia_. New Haven, 1948. ________________. _Medieval Russian Laws._ New York, 1947. Volkoff, Vladimir. _Vladimir, the Russian Viking_. Woodstock, NY, 1985. Zenkovsky, Serge A. _Medieval Russia's Epics, Chronicles, and Tales._ New York, 1974. More may be added as my research progresses--there is no book on here which I have not personally read. All these books are in English and some are available in bookstores. My apologies for not providing complete publisher info--e-mail me if you need it. Tonight I give the first meeting in preparation for the Novgorod event. Were it not for my great love of history and the people of the SCA, I think I would have dropped this organization forever about 15 minutes ago. St. Doug, protect us. Nicolaa/Susan Canton of Eoforwic sclark at epas.utoronto.ca From: pyuaq at csv.warwick.ac.uk (Mr G S Sutherland) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Christianity Quiz... Date: 17 Mar 1994 13:01:59 -0000 Organization: University of Warwick, Coventry, UK Susan Clark (sclark at epas.utoronto.ca) wrote: + 13.) When did st. Vladimir Convert Russia officially to Christianity? + (Bonus points for anyone who can tell me why he supposedly did so) It was somewhere around 988. Why? Firstly, it was to bring the Rus into the European political sphere. Since they were a bunch of heathens (Good on them!) they were ostracised by the Christian kings who shared their borders. Apparently the choice of religion was taken from the following list: Roman Catholicism (Rejected because there was no glory in its worship.) Islam (Rejected because the Rus would have to give up drink. But Vladimir did like the multiple wives teaching... ) Judaism (Rejected because the Khazars lived in poor conditions. Ergo it was interpreted as them not having God with them.) Eastern Orthodoxy (Accepted because of the glory of the churches, and the beauty of the liturgy.) Part of the agreement of the conversion was that Vlamidir would get to marry the Emperor's sister (or other female relative - I can't remember.) She was especially prized since she was born in the palace at Byzantium. (I don't know why this was though.) Unfortunatly the Emperor in Byzantium did not appreciate the demands that the Rus' church would be autonomous from the central church, and that Vladimir wished to marry his sister/whatever. Hence he refused to send priests to carry out the conversion. In retalliation, Vladimir attacked, and conquered the Crimea, and captured a number of priests to do the conversion for him...:) He then ransomed it back to the Byzantines so that his demands were carried out. Eventually the Rus managed to get converted, and he was canonized many years after his death. (Russia's first saints were Boris and Gleb - Vladimir wasn't promoted for so long because he had annoyed the Byzantines so much with the above...) Graeme From: sclark at epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Clark) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Nifty Book... Date: 22 Mar 1994 00:21:17 GMT Organization: EPAS Computing Facility, University of Toronto Greetings.... While digging for yet more books on Medieval Russia, I found the following: _The Archaeology of Novgorod, Russia_, Mark Brisbane, ed. (Society for Medieval Archaeology monograph series #13. Lincoln: Soceity for Medieval Archaeology, 1992. ISSN 0583-9106) For those of you who have seen M. Thompson's _Novgorod the Great_, this is sort of the sequel--it's an update of the dig in general, including stuff that's been found in the nearly 30 years since the publication of _Novgorod the Great_. Great drawings of all kinds of *stuff*, including combs, shoes, keys and locks, weapons, jewellery, house foundations, musical instruments, etc. etc. Novgorod is an extremely damp site (they built log houses rather than dug-out houses like in Kiev because of this), so wooden objects have been preserved reallly well. Have fun.... Nicolaa/Susan (who's feeling very Russian since the heralds in the fencing tourney at Ice dragon kept calling me "Nicolai") Canton of Eoforwic sclark at epas.utoronto.ca From: etchman at shell.portal.com (Philip - Tuley) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: russian info Date: 30 Jun 1994 18:31:16 GMT Organization: Portal Communications Company Susan Rachel (Susan.Rachel at f555.n387.z1.fidonet.org) wrote: : I'd like to apologize to everyone who has patiently awaited the arrival of : this biliography. I really hope that you all find it worth the wait! : These are the books that we own. Consult the bibliographies in them and you : should have a HUGE overall bibliography to choose from. Enjoy!! : Kazimir Petrovich Pomeshanov : mka Brent Rachel : (and his lovely assistant on keyboards this evening, Cathlin mka Susan : Rachel) : --------- : Fidonet: Susan Rachel 1:387/555 : Internet: Susan.Rachel at f555.n387.z1.fidonet.org Hello to the tallest damn Russian I ever met and his most lovely lady! Being *somewhat* interested in the subject, but not from the Russian standpoint but rather the Zhaprozian Cossack view, I'd like to suggest one more book. The Cossacks, By Philip Longworth, Holt, Rhinehart & Winston, 1969, LCC# 75-80353. This book gives some insight into the early cossacks (late 15th and 16th centuries) and then goes on into the rest of Cossackdom history. The only down side for me is that it doesn't focus enough on Zhaprozian cossacks. (In fairness, it splits pretty even with the Don cossacks, but I'd rather it included more about my particular area.) There are other sources, I'll try to post them later. Aleksandr Ivanovich --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Philip J. Tuley | Lord Aleksandr Ivanovich | "... and the angels had | | etchman at shell. | Budischev, Wandering | guitars even before they | | portal.com | Cossack of Clann O Choda | had wings." | From: nataliae at aol.com (Natalia E) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Russian Orthodox Saint Info Date: 11 Dec 1994 22:30:37 -0500 In article <040_9412080500 at wmeonlin.sacbbx.com>, Rob.Sturtevant at dt_wongy.wmeonlin.sacbbx.com (Rob Sturtevant) writes: Welcome Sasha: There are many Russians running around in the East. You can read the Domostroy written by Sylvester which might help you. It is a household guide to Russian families in the late 1500s. I don't know enough about Russian culture as far as celebrating saint's days but I have asked my brother (also Sasha) to look into it. He might email you directly. Good luck and welcome to the Rialto. Nataliia Anastasiia Evgenova Svyatoslavin From: pyotr at chinook.halcyon.com (Peter D. Hampe) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Russian Orthodox Saint Info Date: 12 Dec 1994 21:10:52 GMT Organization: Northwest Nexus Inc. Greetings to all, from Nikolai Petrovich Flandrovov On the subject of Russian celebrating birthdays vs name day Sasha Ivanovitch Kalitin writes: : I am fairly new to the society, but have sort of jumped in with both :feet. After 7 months I've already done garb for others (fairly simple), and am :trying to organize a demo for a local school. I am having trouble with a few :areas however... : I'm the only Russian I know of in my local group, and you can believe :me, I have asked around! What I write you all about is this: I have read, in :a book on Russian food & culture, that the Russians of at least the 19th :century were more likely to celebrate their "Name day" than a birthday. :Apparantly this is like a birthday, but on the day of the Saint whose name you :bear. More likely - you were named for the saint on whose name-day you were born. ie Dezember sixth is St Nicolas day - you got tagged with Nikolas. On the other hand - you might be named after someone "important" - your uncle, grandfather, mother's brother's wifes's second cousin (the one with all the money/land, ya know?). Naming conventions depend on time place and personal whim. (I know someone who's mom changed the 'a' to an 'o' and Sandra became Sondra ... which is not all that uncommon a name...) : What I would like to know is, was this practiced in period (For me :mid-16th Cent.)? Where can I get a book or books that will tell me more about :this (or any other) customs in period? And where can I find out what day mine :would be one? (I'm looking for Aleksandr, or Alexander) : As I write this I suppose I could ask an Eastern Orthodox priest.. I :should think of these things sooner! Though I suppose I have an excuse, having :been raised Protestant.. ;) May be yes, may be no. : Many thanks in advance, and to all a pleasant Season! : : Sasha Ivanovitch Kalitin -- pyotr at halcyon.com Pyotr Filipivich, sometimes Owl. From: Valdez at polisci.sscnet.ucla.EDU Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Pagan Lithuanians Date: 13 Mar 1995 16:46:03 -0500 Greetings! The pagan discussion picqued my curiosity -- We're doing a course on Russian History and Culture this quarter, and I have run across a number of references to the conversion of the Lithuanians to Christianity. Of course, The Russians themselves didn't adopt Christianity officially until 988, and one could make an argument that it took quite a long time to filter down to the common people out in the boonies (as opposed to Kiev and mojor cities; see Andrei Tarkovsky's _Andrei Rublev_, which has some interesting allusions to pagan practices if you know what to look for. My lady does.) More to the point -- The textbook we're using for this course (MacKenzie and Curran, _A History of Russia, the Soviet Union and Beyond_) suggests that Lithuania's conversion was a process stretching from the early to mid-13th century to the early 15th. The Teutonic Knights, of course, were on a mission to convert Baltic Pagans by the early 13th century; King Mindaugas and his family converted, and Mindaugas received "a crown from the pope in Rome" in 1253 (p. 104). Lithuanian unification was completed in the third quarter of the 13th c., under Traidenis;curiously, this period saw a pagan "revival" which evidently antagonized matny of the Orthodox Russians (Slavs) under Lithuanian control. To make a long story short, Lithuania drew closer to Poland, as a result of continuing pressure from the Teutonic Knights by the late 14th century. Many lithuanuian nobles remained pagan, but began to convert especially after the 1385 Union of Krewo (with Poland): converts to Catholicism "obtained all the privileges of the Polish nobility." (p. 105). Of course, for the life of me I can't find what is commonly taken to be the exact date of conversion, but you get the picture. Hope this helps -- there is a good, sound basis to be a pagan noble of the Lithuanian-Russian variety through at least the end of the 14th c. Iban de Sepulveda From: ddfr at best.com (David Friedman) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Newbie wanting literature on period Russia... Date: 26 Sep 1995 04:19:00 GMT Cornell University Press recently published a translation of the Domostroi. It is a Russian household manual--how to run a household, with lots of stuff on food, wedding ceremonies, etc. The original text is apparently 16th century, with some later additions. David/Cariadoc -- ddfr at best.com From: mholl at aol.com (MHoll) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Newbie wanting literature on period Russia... Date: 26 Sep 1995 12:23:08 -0400 Greetings! Sashka (Lillith Kylan Lerien) Wrote: >Yeah, I'm pretty much a newbie... I've been kinda bluffing my way >through my first few events, but I'm interested in creating a persona >that is actually period... so I'm looking for some literature (preferably >not huge tomes... I'm a college student, already busy) with some general >information on Russian (well, more specifically, southwestern russia, >nearish to modern Georgia, mountains, nearish the sea) garb, names, >customs, etc, the usual stuff... I am also interested in explanations of >marriage by proxy... There is a good one-volume history book that will give you an outline of Russian history. It's called something like _History of Russia_ (Duh! :) ) and it is by Paul Dukes. Then you can go on to the multi-volume work by George Vernadsky (about the same title). Each of Vernadsky's volumes can be read separately, so you can concentrate on your period until you have more leisure to study all of it. As far as garb is concerned, I am not aware of any work in English. You may want to move to Novgorod, biased advice here, although there really is a more on that northern city than on most other places because of extensive archeological digs done there. Predslava Vydrina Bjornsborg, Ansteorra From: blktauna at netaxs.com (Donna Bowers) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Newbie wanting literature on period Russia... Date: 30 Sep 1995 20:53:42 GMT Organization: Philadelphia's Complete Internet Provider Sashka; Try some of these: W.E.D. Allen History of the Georgian People D.M. Lang The Georgians Colin Thubron Among the Russians Shota Rustaveli The Knight in the Panther's skin That should get you on track.. Tauna -- blktauna at netaxs.com http://www.netaxs.com/~blktauna From: Robert Lightfoot Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Looking for garb from 13th 14th cent Rus Date: 17 Oct 1996 01:43:57 GMT Natal'ia asks: >I am looking for sorces for 13th and 14th century Rus (Russian) garb. >It seems that all the books I have been trying to find are now out of >print. Please help a new member. Thanks My husband and I have some suggestions for you. Videos: Alexander Nevsky and Ivan the Terrible part 1 & 2, and Andrei Rubliev. Some may be a little later in period but the fashions won't have changed much. Books: Mary Gostlow, Embroidery of all Russia, Charles Scribner's SOns, NY, 1977.ISBN 0-684-151847 Walter A. Fairservis, Jr. Costumes of the East.The Chatham Press, 1971 ISBN:85699-029-0 (hard)// 85699-029-9 (paper) The Scared Art of Russia from Ivan the Terrible to Peter the Great. Porgraom book from the Georgia cultural exchange (display held in ATlanta last year) ISBN:09646394-0-8 (paper)//09646394-1-6(hard). Good luck Lady Siobhan ni Ahearn & Ld. Ernst > Natalie Jean Boyer From: jswanger at u.washington.edu ('Jherek' W. Swanger) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Russian Stuff!! Date: 19 Oct 1996 00:00:12 GMT Organization: University of Washington, Seattle >Greetings to all from Armando Rafael D'Euzkadi, >I'm trying to find information for him, especially in regards to armor >(12th-15th cent). Actually, all kinds of resources will be helpful; >armor, garb, period customs, etc. This may be a bit after the period he's interested in but... The Domostroi : rules for Russian households in the time of Ivan the Terrible / edited and translated by Carolyn Johnston Pouncy. -- Ithaca, NY : Cornell University Press, 1994. Also check the following subject headings at your local library: Russia--Social life and customs Russia--History kirsti (not jherek) From: donata at ix.netcom.com(Dawn D Malmstrom) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Looking for garb from 13th 14th cent Rus Date: 17 Oct 1996 05:27:21 GMT In <54430t$11b at bill.gnatnet.net> Robert Lightfoot writes: >My husband and I have some suggestions for you. >Videos: Alexander Nevsky and Ivan the Terrible part 1 & 2, and Andrei >Rubliev. Some may be a little later in period but the fashions won't >have changed much. Please, oh please _don't_ use a movie as documentation! For one thing, Ivan was not Czar until 1547 and the movie is 20th century. There is a web page for Slavic Interests at http://vms.www.uwplatt.edu/~goldschmidt/slavic.html and I know of a Laurel who is currently translating a Ukranian costuming book of which I have a partial copy, but she does not have email. If you are interested, please email me and I will send it on to her. In Service, Donata From: lobel at is.nyu.edu (Sheldon Lobel) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Looking for garb from 13th 14th cent Rus Date: 17 Oct 1996 17:04:21 GMT Organization: New York University Dawn D Malmstrom (donata at ix.netcom.com) wrote: : Please, oh please _don't_ use a movie as documentation! For one thing, : Ivan was not Czar until 1547 and the movie is 20th century. There is a However, a Russian movie generally tends to be a much better source than an American one (for all that's worth). If you look at the credits, they often have 3 or 4 PhD's listed as "historical consultants" and maybe one name as "costuming designer". Naum Khazarin From: BHoll Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Russian Stuff!! Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 23:03:48 -0500 Organization: Trinity University Shire2308 wrote: > > Greetings to all from Armando Rafael D'Euzkadi, > > I have brought into our shire a newbie (a good friend who has finally > decided to give it a shot) who is Russian. I mean....he's really from > RUSSIA, not just his persona. > > I'm trying to find information for him, especially in regards to armor > (12th-15th cent). Actually, all kinds of resources will be helpful; > armor, garb, period customs, etc. > > At his request, send any email to him, Egor, at egorp at aol.com. > > Armando Rafael D'Euzkadi > Kingdom of the East > Royal Forest of Rusted Woodlands To this person and any other: Make your way to the Slavic Interest Group Web Page at: http://vms.www.uwplatt.edu/~goldschmidt/slavic.html Lots of stuff there, especially a really nice bibliography. Predslava Vydrina From: BHoll Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Looking for garb from 13th 14th cent Rus Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 22:59:36 -0500 Organization: Trinity University Robert Lightfoot wrote: > > My husband and I have some suggestions for you. I apologize as I will criticise most of what you suggest. In my defense: I have been studying Russian costume for several years now, I am mundanely a doctoral candidate in Russian studies, and I read Russian. > Videos: Alexander Nevsky and Ivan the Terrible part 1 & 2, and Andrei > Rubliev. Some may be a little later in period but the fashions won't have > changed much. I haven't seen "Aleksandr Nevskii" in quite a while, so I won't say anything. "Ivan the Terrible" is only "just about," and "Andrei Rublev" SHOULD not be considered a historical movie AT ALL, even by its own director's words! Very little in it is actually historical, from the characters' behavior to the clothes they wear. A lot of it is "generic poor oppressed peasant". > Books: Mary Gostlow, Embroidery of all Russia, Charles Scribner's SOns, > NY, 1977.ISBN 0-684-151847 > Walter A. Fairservis, Jr. Costumes of the East.The Chatham Press, 1971 > ISBN:85699-029-0 (hard)// 85699-029-9 (paper) There is almost nothing in this book that is period. Do not use it without a background study of Russian costume. > The Scared Art of Russia from Ivan the Terrible to Peter the Great. > Porgraom book from the Georgia cultural exchange (display held in ATlanta > last year) ISBN:09646394-0-8 (paper)//09646394-1-6(hard). Sacred art can be a good source if you know what you are looking for. A lot of the clothing is stylized and follows the ritual demands of icon painting, but some icons depict ordinary people in actual period clothing. But do turn to the Slavic Interest Group web page at http://vms.www.uwplatt.edu/~goldschmidt/slavic.html There is an annotated bibliography there aimed at people who do not read Russian. Feel free to e-mail me if you would like some more help. Predslava Vydrina (a lurking Russian persona who just had to emerge) From: BHoll Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Russian Stuff!! Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 10:58:01 -0500 Organization: Trinity University 'Jherek' W. Swanger wrote: > This may be a bit after the period he's interested in but... > > The Domostroi : rules for Russian households in the time of > Ivan the Terrible / edited and translated by Carolyn Johnston > Pouncy. -- Ithaca, NY : Cornell University Press, 1994. > > kirsti > (not jherek) Yes! Pouncy's translation of the Domostroi is excellent, but note that it is a late-period book about late-period manners and traditions. Predslava Vydrina From: BHoll Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Does anyone know Russian? Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 22:25:17 -0500 Organization: Trinity University Dick Eney wrote: > Zofia Beloshchenko wrote: > > ... Arval has a good point though. You might want > > to consider Russian naming standards. I have found that towns and cities > > had a more meaningful name. > > Somewhere I forget, I read that quite a few small Russian villages were > named things like "Naked" or (sort of) "Disgusting Mess" because they were > named by the local noble who owned the land, who gave them the name they > thought fit the conditions without regard to the opinions of the peasants. > This may have been the result of deep poverty in the 19th century, but it > may have been period practice too. If so, then "Middle of Nowhere" seems > mild by comparison. > > Tamar the Gypsy (sharing account dickeney at access.digex.net) Something like that may have happened. But places are usually named by those who found them/live there. Paul Wickended of Thanet, in his _Dictionary of Period Russian Names_ has a section on place names. A nice appendix, worth looking at. Predslava Vydrina Barony of Bjornsborg Kingdom of Ansteorra From: BHoll Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Some assistance? Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 22:19:11 -0500 Organization: Trinity University Valerie Rose wrote: > > Hello all, > I need some assistance with some research, and I thought it would be a > good idea to ask here, since this newsgroup seems to have a lot of SCA > members on it. > (snip...) > Then I had an idea......what about other areas of Europe? I asked him > about Russian, Romanian, Hungarian, etc. They must have used T-tunics > types clothes at some time or another, right? Plus, I get cold a lot, and > dressing in outfits from one of those countries would allow me to bundle > up and still be in persona!:) And hubby dear said he'd at least look at > the stuff.....if I did all the reasearch, of course. > However, my local library has book that say two or three sentances > about Russian....and then goes straight into the Tsars! And Romania or > Hungary? Almost nothing on names, so far....though I'm still looking. > Nothing on the middle ages in those countries, or on clothes. Almost > nothing at all. > (snip again) > > Aibgrene Rose > (AKA VAlerie Rose) Look at the bibliography at the Slavic Interest Group web site: http://vms.www.uwplatt.edu/~goldschmidt/slavic.html There are references to books on Eastern European Middle Ages. It's largely Russian stuff, but not exclusively. And according to my research, pre-XIII century Russian costume was pretty much T-tunic-like with more tunics and cloaks for cold weather. Fur lined, too. Just add an appropriate hat, and that's it. Predslava Vydrina Barony of Bjornsborg Kingdom of Ansteorra From: BHoll Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Some assistance? Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 23:23:48 -0500 Organization: Trinity University I have missed the original post, but if you are interested in Russia and Central/Eastern Europe, then go to the Slavic Interest Group web page: http://vms.www.uwplatt.edu/~goldschmidt/slavic.html There is a great bibliography there and other good stuff. If you cannot get to that web page, then write to me at MHoll at aol.com and I'll be happy to help. The most current and accurate name-book of Russian names can be found at the SCA web site at: http://www.sca.org/ in the Heraldry section. Again, if you need more help, feel free to write to me (do not e-mail via this post). Predslava Vydrina Bjornsborg, Ansteorra From: nayat at panix.com (nayat) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Tatar Yoke/Medieval Russia/Novgorod Date: 24 Mar 1997 15:43:37 -0500 Organization: Panix Corun MacAnndra wrote: > >Hmmm, I don't really know much about a Mongol merchant class. I'm sure the >Mongols traded back and forth, but whether there was a specific class that >ran caravans or lived in places far removed from their tribes or the places >the Mongols subjugated is a question I can't answer. I would think, however, >that if Novogrod had not been subjugated by the Mongols, it would have become >a haven for those Russians escaping the Mongols, and therefor I would guess >that Mongols in general would have been very unwelcome to the point that any >might have been jailed or even killed out of hand. The Rus have never liked >conquerors, and the Mongols were pretty ruthless. > >In service, >Corun To say that the Rus didn't like being conquored by the Mongols is an understatement. They went so far as to deny it in their chronicles, while still preserving their history. I would point anyone interested in the topic to Charles J. Halperin's book _Russia and the Golden Horde: The Mongol Impact on Medieval Russian History_ published by Indiana Press. As to Mongol Merchants I would point out that the reason Chinggis khan turned west was to punish the Shah of Khurasan for killing Mongol Merchants. Of course he thought they were spys, but the Great Khan taught him. Umbar in Hashiral Daudachi, Beis Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 21:31:51 -0600 From: Mary Amanda Fairchild To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Russian question fiondel at i1.net wrote: > Gentles of the arts list, a question, > > I am currently trying to find references for Russian garb (embroidered, > if possible) from approximately 1350. Ukrain area. This would be for > Russian nobility/hetman type garb, not peasantry. The "Russian" in > question has one of those "funny hats." I went to our local > library today and drew almost a complete blank. > > Books? Web Sites? Archive Sites? Please, HELP! > > Fiondel All-Set-Up-and-Nothing-To-Sew Dear Lady, I took 2 classes at Pennsic about Russian garb-basic and ornamented-that were helpful and informative. I'll be as brief as possible: 1. start with a white(ish) longsleeved (fitted cuff) slit down the center (for women, for men it's the side cut)about 6 inches with or without collar double trimmed with something there and single trimmed on cuff and floor hem slip (or shirt for men) 2. make a full skirt, preferably red, trim 3. the top or vest or overshirt is full or pleated in the back, tucked or pleated at the waist. 4. hats range from jeweled crown-like bands to fur hats to scarves 5. coats are fur lined and often have mongolian side-cut influence 6. boots are red (good luck finding those) and sturdy 7. and PEARLS PEARLS PEARLS everywhere and anywhere. That's the basics but if you want or need more please contact me. Also, the teacher brought in a cute (and accurate) model---Russian Barbie! have fun! Mary Amanda Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 08:31:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Carol at Small Churl Books To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Russian question >I am currently trying to find references for Russian garb (embroidered, >if possible) from approximately 1350. Ukrain area. There is a book set called the "Kiev Psalter" which has marginalia showing people and their clothes. You might try to see if interlibrary loan can lay hands on it for you. It was a very expensive boxed set ($125 on out-of-print discount!) and one of the few original sources I have ever seen. Another out of print book is the "Costume Timeline". It had some Russian examples at various time periods. Author: Muller; publisher: Thames & Hudson. Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 08:48:17 -0400 (EDT) From: sclark at chass.utoronto.ca (Susan Carroll-Clark) To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Russian question Best book I know of in English is _History of Ukrainian Costume_ by Yuri Tkach. Very good text and large colour plates, and it does cover the period you want. Cheers-- Nicolaa de Bracton sclark at chass.utoronto.ca Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 10:24:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Jenne Heise To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Russian question More information about Russian and Slavic topics, including an extensive bibliography and a list of contacts, can be found on the web page of the Slavic Interest Group (an unofficial SCA group): http://vms.www.uwplatt.edu/~goldschmidt/slavic.html There is a review of a book on Russian garb making in one of the newsletters, at: http://vms.www.uwplatt.edu/~millerje/news04.html There's an article on pearling in another issue: http://vms.www.uwplatt.edu/~millerje/news05.html Etc. Jennifer Heise ** Aunt Bunny ** Jadwiga Zajaczkowa jenne at tulgey.browser.net Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 00:40:29 -0500 (CDT) From: fiondel at i1.net To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Russian question >I don't have the exact web site available at this time, but if you were to >go to >http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/arts_and_sciences.html you will find a link >so some nice costuming sites and a couple on the Slavic races. Thank you so much for this reference. It pointed me to *exactly* what I needed. In case anyone else is interested, one of the "books" on this site is actually a portfolio of photographs. Seems that in 1903 the Russian Imperial Family had a ball at the Winter Palace, and they and all their guests wore vintage clothing from the 14th to the 18th century. A little over half of the pictures are of garb which is OOP, but the rest are ACTUAL PHOTOGRAPHS of 14-17th century clothing. Not reproductions but the genuine articles. Just too cool for words. The portfolio is called "Historical Russian Costumes", by H. C. Pereleberg. No ISBN number, sorry. Not even a publication date. The one I'm looking at is 14th century. All pearls, embroidery/applique, and furs. Can't wait to get started. Fiondel Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 11:30:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Jenne Heise To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: russian garb On Fri, 23 Oct 1998, rmhowe wrote: > Not where I'm concerned. If you know more than I, or older historians, > I have no trouble with it. I was just citing what I had read/heard > for years, and trying to be helpful. I've tried to buy some stuff > on Novgorad (archaeological findings) but seemed to be a bit late. > Don't read russian, but have read the information about some of the > excavations, magazine articles mostly. I'm currently slogging through Pavel M. Dolukhanov's _The Early Slavs: Eastern Europe from the Initial Settlement to the Kievan Rus_ (yes, Predslava, I'll be posting about it to the SIG list as soon as I've gotten past the glaciation stuff!). It is written by a geologist who was part of the archaelogy teams that did a number of the excavations, and the book is primarily based on the archaelogical record. I'm still working through the glaciation part, on which I can't comment too much, though when Kat'ryna Neblaga Volchkova borrows it from me I'm sure she'll be able to critique it! Jadwiga Zajaczkowa (Shire of Eisental; HERMS Cyclonus), mka Jennifer Heise jenne at tulgey.browser.net Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 23:42:09 EST From: To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: russian garb In a message dated 10/23/98 3:17:38 AM, Magnus wrote: >.... I've tried to buy some stuff >on Novgorad (archaeological findings) but seemed to be a bit late. >Don't read russian, but have read the information about some of the >excavations, magazine articles mostly. That's my advantage -- I do read Russian. Some info on the subject is available in English: see Brisbane... Don't have the full citation at hand... It's a bit dull to read, but Brisbane recaps a lot of the research on Novgorod, mostly as translations of Russian articles. Another source is H. Birnbaum, I think the book is _Novgorod the Great_. It's not leisure reading material, and some of the data is regurgitated without critical examination, and I find fault with some of what he says (especially when he repeats Soviet ideology without comments), but it's useful nevertheless. Both books are in the SIG bibliography, I think. Predslava. Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 11:43:26 -0500 From: rmhowe To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Mongols at Peipus MHoll at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/23/98 3:33:30 AM, Magnus wrote: > > >And the battle on the ice is still thrilling. I believe it > >leaves out the Mongol Allies however. > > Er... Esteemed Horde member... there were no Mongol allies at the Ice > Massacre. The attacks of the Mongols were still too recent and bloody > to allow for any alliances. Ummm. Not according to Lake Peipus 1242 by David Nichole PhD. He refers to them as Turco-Mongol warriors of steppe origin. He states: "The size of of the vital Turco-Mongol contingent of horse archers is unknown, as is their precise identity, but is unlikely to have exceeded a few hundred." He identifies these as people who inhabited both sides of the northern Ural mountains. "Those of the west, also known as the Khantz, had been incorporated into Novgorad's 'fur empire'..." He also states that if they were _mongols_ they were likely brought up from the south by Alexander's brother. Apparently, according to Nichole, quite a number of different tribal peoples made up the army. He cites quite a few. Sounded like quite a melting pot. Surprised the heck out of me too when I read it the first time. I am aware of the Mongol invasion of that area previously. "David Nichole PhD was born in 1944 and was educated at Highgate School. For eight years he worked in the BBC Arabic Service. In 1971 he went "back to school" gaining an MA from the School of Oriental Studies and a PhD from Edinburgh University. For some years he taught world and Islamic art and architectural history at Yarmuk University, Jordan. David has written a number of books for Osprey, including Campaign 43 Fornovo 1495." He cites about 40 books in his bibliography. According to the chronology the Mongols were fighting the same people he was. In 1241 Mongols defeated the Poles and Germans at Leignitz. In 1242 Alexandre took Pskov back and won at Peipus against the same. in 1246 Alexandre submits to the Mongol Khan Batu. In 1252 he becomes the Veliki Knez (Grand Prince) of Russia under Mongol overlordship. Not meaning to say he liked it - it just happened. In the middle of this there were apparently all sorts of peoples being pushed about on the outskirts of the main combatants, some of whom evidently figured it was in their best interest to take sides. > Predslava. Magnus Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 00:04:53 EST From: To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Mongols at Peipus In a message dated 10/27/98 10:42:37 AM, Magnus wrote: >In the middle of >this there were apparently all sorts of peoples being pushed about >on the outskirts of the main combatants, some of whom evidently >figured it was in their best interest to take sides. I'm sure there were. And I'm sure there were non-Russians in Alexander's contingent -- but I haven't read any references to non-Russian *units*. Individuals -- that's a different story. For more, see John Fennell, _The Crisis of Medieval Russia, 1200-1304_, Longman, London and New York, 1983. Or Janet Martin, _Medieval Russia, 980-1584_, Cambridge University Press, New York, 1995. Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 00:11:39 EST From: To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Vikings in Russia (was: Re: russian garb) The clearest statement, as well as the most succint that I have found belongs to Nicholas V. Riazanovsky, then professor of history at Columbia (if I am not mistaken), in _A History of Russia_, second edition, Oxford University Press, New York, 1969, p. 26: "Detailed investigations of Scandinavian elements in Russian culture serve to emphasize their relative insignificance. Norman words in the Russian language, formerly supposed to be numerous, number actually only six or seven. (...) Written literature in Kiev preceded written literature in Scandinavia... (...) Claims of Norman contributions to Russian law have suffered a fiasco: while at one time scholars believed in the Scandinavian foundation of Russian jurisprudence, it has in fact proved impossible to trace elements of Kievan law back to Norman prototypes. (...) Other assertions of Norman cultural influences, for instance, on the organization of the Kievan court or on Russian dress, tend to be vague and inconclusive, especially when compared to the massive impact of Byzantium and the tangible effects of some Oriental cultures on Russia." Riazanovsky goes on to question other finding connecting the "Rus" with a Scandinavian group. The main problem being that no group by that name can be found in Scandinavia of that time. Moreover, the Russian Chronicle "states that the Slavic and the Russian languages are one" (Riazanovsky p. 28). Some texts contrast the Rus with the Slavs, but this may be a contrast between the Kievan Rus and other Slavs. Kievan Rus is often referred to as "Rus" as opposed, say, to the Novgorod Slavs even in much later Chronicle entries. Finally, Riazanovsky concludes on this subject: "In particular the names of the first princes, to and excluding Sviatoslav, as well as the names of many of their followers in the treaties with Byzantium, make the majority of scholars outside the Soviet Union today consider the first Russian dynasty and its immediate retinue as Scandinavian. Yet, even if we accept this view, it remains dangerous to postulate grand Norman designs for eastern Europe, or to interpret the role of Vikings on the Russian plain by analogy with their much better known activities in Normandy or in Sicily. A historian can go beyond his evidence only at his own peril." (p. 30). So there is no clear evidence that the Rus' were Scandinavian at all, or any positive proof that the Rurikid dynasty was of Norse origin, although that is the accepted theory. The cultural distinction between the (probably) Norse rulers and the Slavic population disappeared very early on, probably before the IX century when names that were almost clearly Norse ceased to be used. Certainly there is no reference in the Chronicles to any linguistic problems between the Rurikid princes and the population. Or any kind of cultural tension between the two groups, only expected political opposition between powerful and wealthy groups, the landowners on the one side, and the military leaders and administrators on the other. A point to remember is that the "Normans" referred to in Russian history are not the same Normans of English history. It was just a term used interchangeably with "Norse," "Viking" and "Scandinavian" -- a vague term rather than a specific one. Predslava Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 22:29:46 EST From: froggestow at juno.com (Roberta R Comstock) To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Pre-Seventeenth Cent. Slavic Sources On Mon, 9 Nov 1998 08:46:54 -0800 (PST) Beth Ann Snead writes: >Help! I need a pre-seventeenth century slavic motif for an arts >triathalon I'm entering in February. I have NO idea where to look >since my area of expertise is neither slavic nor needlework. I'm >hoping to find at least one blackwork pattern, (If not a pattern at >least a picture to develope a pattern from.) and one generic >embroidery pattern. If possible, could someone point me in the >right direction. The two books I would suggest are: _Embroidery of All Russia_ by Mary Gostelow, 1977. New York: Charles Scribner's Sons. ISBN 0-684-15184-7 Although mostly modern, there are some good examples of period embroideries. There is also some reference to the wonderful felt applique work of the 5th century, BC. Most of the counted stitch work shown is well past the SCA period of interest. _Russian Illuminated Manuscripts_ by Olga Popova, 1994, Aurora Arts Publishers, Leningrad. First published in USA 1984, Thames & Hudson, Inc., NY. ISBN 0-500-27310-3 Even though most of the color illustrations (replicas of manuscript pages) are from religious documents, there are a lot of wonderful border designs and other setaile that could be easily converted to embroidery or applique patterns. Also look for art history and coffee table books about treasures of the Kremlin, Scythian gold work, Dark Ages tribal migrations, end such. Hertha Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 23:17:55 -0500 From: "K. E. Reinhart" To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Slavic Sources Another book with good pictures of Slavic art & embroidery Alpatov, M. W. & Olga Dacenko. Art Treasures of Russia. New York: Harry N. Abrams, n. d. LC# 67-12683 Keran Roslin Sterlynge Vayle AEthelmearc Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 14:55:55 -0600 From: Jenn/Yana Subject: Re: SC - Replies to Centre, marmalde and russian recipe queries Akim wrote regarding Russian cookbooks: >Perhaps there are documents in the Novgorod-Seversky >excavations that we may discover available, I would bet that if 12th >century recipes exist, it will be from those digs. My hunch is based on this >reasoning. Unlike their contemporaries in western Europe at this period, a >majority of the citizens of Novgorod-Seversky were generally literate; not >just the nobility or the church heirarchy, everyone. Literacy there was >very comparable to modern America, perhaps even surpassing it. They used >the plentiful bark of the white birch tree, writing with a stylus as the >bark surface darkened when compressed. The soil acidity and low >temperatures of this city have preserved literally tons of notes and >personal letters written on birchbark. We have letters of mundane subjects >like a husband asking his wife to send him his two best shirts and new >underwear. This hoard of preserved data is unique to this city-state of >ancient Rus as conditions did not preserve similar data in more southerly >cities like Kiev. If "Mrs Ivanovich" wrote her recipes down, it is most >likely that they still exist here. Yes, the birchbark documents are a wonderful source for research and an astounding archaeological find. And of course, we don't know what is going to appear in the future findings. However, the birchbark documents were not meant for permanent storage, they were for notes and messages, not book-length subjects. An entire cookbook is not likely for the subject of a birchbark document, but a single recipe or some notes on food is possible. None have been found yet, but I too hope for some fragment of a recipe reference. >I have recently discovered a Russian national selling Russian subject books >on Ebay who has sold me some absolutely wonderful resource texts on >Novgorod. She is Lyudmila Khononov, in Brooklyn NY. Perhaps she could use >her contacts in book-selling to see if in-period cookery books are now >available. Her address is Lkon5 at aol.com . Her company name and Ebay >sellers i.d. is"Russiantroyka". You would probably be better off with Viktor Kamkin (www.kamkin.com) or Russian Panorama (www.panrus.com). I have bought from RussianTroyka, but they are a reseller and (last time I checked) would only sell to you if you bid on eBay. Not the way I like to do business, YMMV. Kamkin is the respected North American source for Russian books. They get most everything and have an incredible warehouse in Rockford MD. However, no period cookbooks yet! :) - --Yana Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 18:41:55 -0800 (PST) From: Huette von Ahrens Subject: SC - russian book vendors - --- Jenn/Yana wrote: > You would probably be better off with Viktor Kamkin > (www.kamkin.com) or Russian Panorama (www.panrus.com). I have bought from > RussianTroyka, but they are a reseller and (last time I checked) would only > sell to you if you bid on eBay. Not the way I like to do business, YMMV. > Kamkin is the respected North American source for Russian books. They get > most everything and have an incredible warehouse in Rockford MD. However, no > period cookbooks yet! :) > > --Yana An even better Russian book vendor than Kamkin is: East View Publications 3020 Harbor Lane North Suite 110 Minneapolis, MN 55448 1-800-477-1005 e-mail: books at eastview.com website: http://www.eastview.com East View has offices in Russia and almost all of the breakaway republics. In my 15 years as an acquisitions librarian, I have (and still do) dealt with Kamkin, but I have found East View faster, more e-mail responsive and better in finding obscure books than Kamkin. Kamkin is better in dealing with subscriptions, in my opinion. Huette From: Lord Mikhial Subject: Re: Russian Armor Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 04:11:21 -0700 I am Lord Mikhial Da'Mianovich, I'm currently living in the Kingdom of Caid and have been doing this for two years. Last summer I was researching for Russian armor like yourself and have found two types most commonly used. First type is the chain mail which most people are familiar with if there is an armorer in the area. I chose to go a different direction because it would provide a more personal look. Beginning in the 13th century, the Rus created an armor called "KUYAK" it was basically a long shirt of hide leather with bronze plates riveted throughout. I'm leaving two site address, feel free to check them out, the first is very detailed about Russian armor and weapons, it has good pictures of the armor I mentioned. The second one is of my homepage, but my photographer wasn't the best and my pics are a little dark so you may not be able to see how I did it. http://members.aol.com/johns426/partII.htm#Kuyak http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Loft/9623/SCA.html From: slh1500 at aol.com (SLH1500) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: NewComers Handbooks Ideas/Comments/Help Date: 02 Jun 2000 06:53:02 GMT These are my favorites, particularly the last two. sasha http://www.sit.wisc.edu/~jdmiller2/knowledge/clothing.html http://www.costumes.org/pages/russcostlinks.htm http://vms.www.uwplatt.edu/~goldschp/slavic.html http://www.sit.wisc.edu/~jdmiller2/tiart.html http://www.huscarl.com/costume/text/russiandoc.htm http://members.aol.com/Predslava/GiliarovskaiaPatterns.html#General http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/rubakha.html http://www.thekeep.net/avelina/costume/catalog1.htm http://www.sovietski.com/ http://www.importsrussia.com/anna.html http://www.costumes.org/pages/1903ball.htm From: val_org at hotmail.com (Gunnora Hallakarva) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Persona research (Kiev/Rus/Scandinavia?) help REALLY wanted. :-) Date: 16 Jul 2001 09:33:46 -0700 NomadNStarkhafnNOSPAM at aol.com (Nomad in Starkhafn) wrote > Okay, this is what I've got so far... Trader born in the year 950 AD, > born in Kiev, parents were Scandinavian traders. I have some basic > garb so far. I'd REALLY appreciate URLs and possibly book titles I > could borrow from the library. Also take a look at: The real Risala of Ibn Fadlan http://www.vikinganswerlady.org/ibn_fdln.htm An intro to Vikings in Russia and Byzantium http://www.vikinganswerlady.org/varangians.htm Several websites of the New Varangian Guard reenactment group: U.S. NVG http://web.missouri.edu/~tm104/Varangian Australia NVG http://www.geocities.com/svenskildbiter/NVGInc/index.html Holthoer, R. Birch-Bark Documents from Novgorod Relating to Finland and Scandinavia. Acta Universitatis Uppsaliensis 19. Uppsala: University of Uppsala. 1981. Lindquist, Sven-Olaf, ed. Society and Trade in the Baltic During the Viking Age. Acta Visbyensia 7. Visby: Gotlands fornsal. 1985. Muller-Wille, Michael, ed. Oldenburg-Wolin-Staraja Ladoga-Novgorod-Kiev: Handel und Handelsrerbindungen im sudlichen und ostlichen Ostseraum wahrend des fruhen Mittelalters. Bericht RGK 69. 1988. Noonan, Thomas S. "The Vikings and Russia: Some New Directions and Approaches to an Old Problem." in Social Approaches to Viking Studies. ed. Ross Samson. Glasgow: Cruithne Press, 1991. pp. 201-206. to buy from Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1873448007/thevikinganswerl Palsson, Hermann and Paul Edwards. Vikings in Russia: Yngvar's Saga and Eymund's Saga. Edinburgh: Edinburgh University Press. 1989. To buy from Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0852246234/thevikinganswerl Sawyer, Peter, Omelian Pritsak, Bengt E. Hoven, Thomas S. Noonan, Talvio Tuukka, Jutta Waller and Anne Stalsburg. "Relations Between Scandinavia and the Southeastern Baltic / Northeastern Russia in the Viking Age." Journal of Baltic Studies 13:3 (1982) pp. 175-295. There are a ton of journal articles out there, in English, Finnish, and Russian, which deal with the early Rus and Scandinavians in Russia. I'd start with the ones above and mine thir bibliographies for more leads. ::GUNNORA:: Subject: Re: [MR] Help with Russian persona - with heavy Mongol overtones ;) Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 11:22:37 -0400 From: rmhowe To: Atlantia Larissa Simmons wrote: > I am in need of help in completing the development of my Russian persona. > I am satisfied with my first name, but need a second name. > My persona is circa 1124 in Kiev and has ties both to the Kievan > nobility and the Mongol horde (thus far, I may need help tweaking her > history). There are Russian and Mongol name guides on the internet and I'm sure the Academy of St. Gabriel knows of them. It's easier to use St. Gabriel who think name puzzles are funny to argue over than to do it yourself frequently. I imagine you can reach them off of http://www.sca/org/ under Heraldry or Names. > I also need to know where to look for pictures of armor post > Kievan Age Russia. I am grateful for all help. > In Service, - Iaroslavna Scale and mail seems to have been popular at that period. So were helmets of either spangenhelm or single raised conical helms with a nasal and decorative brow and eyebrow decorations. Leather armour was used by the mongols frequently over a loose silk shirt. This had the advantage of not cutting like a normal cloth wood and easing the withdrawal of an arrowhead. The loose silk threads also pulled any corruption of the wound out. The best picture of a leather laminated scale cuirass I know of is in the Eyewitness book on Russia. As far as most armor pictures go they principally exist on pottery or engraved and embossed articles. Osprey has a number of books on the Mongols and Medieval Russian Armies in their various series. In the Campaigns Series there is the Battle of the Kalka River. Mongols and Rus even fought with each other briefly against the Teutonic Knights and their allies. This is in one of the books that Osprey puts out by Dr. David Nicolle. In the Osprey series alone you should find 4 or so good books on the Mongols. I have somewhere around a hundred and ten of the things. Some of the Romano-Byzantine armor wouldn't be too far off. It heavily influenced the Russians, and the Mongols were fighting in that area as well. Osprey Man at Arms 105 The Mongols ISBN 0850453720 132282 Osprey Campaign Series 98 Kalka River 1223AD 1841762334 134187 Osprey Campaign Series 46 Lake Peipus 1242AD 1855325535 132104 Osprey MAA 333 Armies of Medieval Russia 750-1250 1855328488 132503 Osprey MAA 251 Medieval Chinese Armies 1260-1520 1855322544 During the first part of this era the Mongols ruled as the Yuan Dynasty. Their successors were overthrown by Ming Dynasty. So, somewhat the same warriors. Osprey MAA 295 Imperial Chinese Armies 590-1260 AD 1855325993 The Mongols were a diverse group of Tribes until Genghis Khan united and named them. The last part of this book is applicable. Osprey MAA 287 Byzantine Armies 1118-1461 AD 1855323478 Remember these folks were highly influencial on the surrounding cultures, and there are a great many depicted in period paintings and modern illustrations and photographs. This has a lot of Scale Armour and weaponry in it. The Vikings served them as the Varangian Guard, and the way they got there was on the rivers passing through many areas north to south. The Rus were a tribe of Scandinavians invited in to rule the early Russian slavs. Osprey MAA 222 The Age of Tamerlane by David Nicolle PhD. 0850459494 Warfare in the Middle East 1350-1500 AD. A Turcified Mongol descendant and Conqueror. Probably a bit late for you, but might prove useful for the ethnicity. National Geographic Vol. 190, No. 6, December 1996 issue on Ghenghis Khan and the beginning of the Mongol conquests. Written by Mike Edwards, Photographs by James. L. Stanfield. Map Supplement with a mongol ger wagon train on the reverse. Pages 3-37. National Geographic Vol. 191, No. 2, February 1997 issue on Sons of Genghis - The Great Khans pages 2-35. Written by Mike Edwards, Photographs by James. L. Stanfield. This covers the subsequent expansion of the various Mongol Khans taking the empire to its greatest extent. Eighteen Songs of a Nomad Flute - the Story of Lady Wen-Chi, 1974, Metropolitan Museum of Art, 89 pages, 18 color(full-page), 73 black/white reproductions; text of poems on scroll by Liu Shang, 8th C.; paintings by unknown 12th C. artist. Introduction, commentary and translation of poems by Robert A. Rorex and Wen Fong, Distributed by the New York Grapic Society, hardback in slip case, about sixty unnumbered pages. Although Lady Wen Chi was originally abducted in the second century AD by predecessors of the later Huns who troubled Rome, her story was retold over the centuries and reillustrated with new pictures. The ones in this book relate her as if she were living with the twelfth century Mongols and the illustrations of their Gers and wagons, processions, and daily life is the most accurate for the Mongol period we have. Well worth obtaining. A Former Horde Brother of mine who knew and researched Mongolian/ Chinese Costumes quite a lot felt the best book on the subject is 5000 years of Chinese Costume if you can find and afford one. Compleat Anachronist # 99 Life in Thirteenth Century Novgorod by Gregory William Frux. Available through the SCA stock clerk. Compleat Anachronist #35 An Introduction to Russian Costume by Soraya Evodia of Odessa, same stock clerk. Compleat Anachronist # 54 The Mongols by Georg of Glacier's Edge Same stock clerk. http://www.sca.org/ Membership services. The Mongol Warlords - Genghis Khan - Kublai Khan - Hulegu - Tamerlane; by David Nicolle, plates by Richard Hook, Brockhampton Press, London, 1998, Hardback, dj, 8to, 192 pages, with Black and White and Colour Illustrations and Photographs (a great many actually). Marco Polo, The Historic Adventure Based on the Television Spectacular; Random House, New York, 1982, Based on the Italian/Chinese Movie Production. Storybook on the movie by Elizabeth Levy. Hardback with color picture illustrations and colors. 62 pages. ISBN 0394853296. If you -ever- get a chance to see the whole huge film don't miss it! Also you might like to see the movie Alexander Nevsky. The 1939 film was a propaganda film against the Germans, however it is primarily based on Fact. It's generally in VHS somewhere. The battle on the Ice at Lake Peipus is stunning at times. Try http://www.ccvideo.com/ Then you might wish to join the Slavic Interest Group, or SIG. http://slavic.freeservers.com/ Which is composed of SCA members who can aid you. I blind copied a few (might be old addresses but you never know. You may get sucked in anyway.) In any event, once you've made up your mind I am fairly sure we can arrange an abduction of yourself, at your request at Pennsic. It's happened before. Then you'll have your story, and someone may paint and write the poems of a long scroll for you. Master Magnus Malleus, OL, Atlantia, Great Dark Horde Khan's Own Intelligence Agency Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 10:47:43 -0400 From: "Stephanie Ross" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] zakuskas To: "SCA-Cooks" <> No, no, Stefan, Russian peasants. You cannot compare Russian peasants to medieval surf peasants. All peasant meant in Russia is that you are not of noble blood. You could be very rich and successful and non-Christian and still be of the peasant class. Peasant was a term that meant the common people, what we call the middle class, the backbone of society. Cotton is not a fabric that was commonly used in Russia until about the 1940's by the peasantry. They were still weaving linen for their shirts and using homespun wool for skirts and pants. I have a friend from Ukraine who sells on Ebay, and she told me that the material I want for my plahtas (a term which means blanket now, was a skirt) and panovas (a type of wrap-around three-panel skirt common from Rus times) is becoming increasingly impossible to find, because it became quite uncommon after the Revolution. However, I have some actual photographs of this material, but grandmothers stopped weaving it decades ago when communism brought in cheap cotton cloth. You see, even after Peotr and Catherine the Great managed to westernize the Russian nobility in the 17 and 1800's, life for the peasant didn't change. They went on living their quiet lives in their spread out villages that only interacted once or twice a year. I'm serious when I say that there are still villages in the backwoods of Russia who still have not been modernized and still wear their "peasant costumes" as daily wear. Russians don't like change, because change has brought death and destruction for them so often in the past. They are also a very stubborn people and cling to their ways. Frankly I was amazed at how many dishes in the Domostroi were still common in Russia today. Kasha is still a staple, as are blini, rye bread, schi (cabbage soup), pirogs and piroshki, smoked and pickled fish, pickles, caviar, mushrooms (oh how the Russians love their mushrooms. They still go out in the woods to find them today and fight over them). I think the liberal use of sour cream is the biggest change in food since the Domostroi was written. Of course I am talking about what mom cooked at home (v domi), not what is sold to tourists in big cities, like Chicken Kiev and Beef Stroganoff. There are actually dates of creation for those dishes and nobody ever cooked them at home. <> I wish I could get my hands on evidence of any history for Russian food, either pro or con. So little is written in English it is impossible to find reliable sources that don't cross-reference each other as sources. This is a problem when researching medieval Russian clothes as well. I am not emotionally attached to my ideas, so if someone comes along and refutes them with documentation, I would be thrilled just to finally KNOW! ~Aislinn~ Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 23:05:51 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] weird question - honey fast??? To: Cooks within the SCA <<< Please enlighten me I cannot not figure how anyone one can fathom honey as a meat product. Suey >>> Ok I hit Google Books this evening and came across a couple of unusual documents buried in that vast archive of stuff. From Senate Documents, Otherwise Publ. as Public Documents and Executive Documents: 14th Congress, 1st Session-48th Congress, 2nd Session and Special Session By United States Congress. Senate Published by , 1856 Original from Oxford University Digitized Dec 7, 2006 BEES, WAX, AND HONEY. BEE-CULTURE IN RUSSIA. The rearing of bees is extensively carried on in the several parts of European Russia, particularly in the central and southern governments, as well as in the Polish and in the trans-Caucasian provinces. This insect acclimatises up to a very high latitude, even in Siberia. It was long thought that the climate of the latter country was utterly unsuitable for the rearing of bees ; but experiments made at the commencement of the present century in the governments of Tomsk, Omsk, and Jenisseisk have proved the contrary. It has greatly suffered, however, in some provinces, from the destruction of the forests; for the bee prefers well wooded districts, where it is protected from the wind. The honey procured from the linden tree ( Tilia eurapced) is only obtained at the little town of Kowno, on the river Niemen, in Lithuania, which is surrounded by an extensive forest of these trees, and where the rearing occupies the principal attention of the inhabitants. The Jews of Poland furnish a close imitation of this honey, by bleaching the common kinds in the open air during frosty weather. The ceremonies of the Greek church, requiring a large consumption of wax candles, greatly favor this branch of rural economy in Russia, and preserve it from the decline to which it is exposed in other countries, from the increasing use of stearine, oil, gas, and other fluids for illuminating purposes. The peasants produce wax so cheaply that, notwithstanding the consumption of this article has greatly diminished abroad, it still continues to form an important item of the commerce of the country ; but the exportation of honey has considerably increased in consequence of the extended use of potato syrup, which has also injured the honey trade in the interior. The rearing of bees is now almost exclusively dependent on the manufacture of candles for religious ceremonies, and on the consumption of honey during Lent, it being then used instead of sugar, by the strict observers of the fasts. The government encourages this branch of rural industry, as affording to the peasant an extra source of income, and has adopted various measures for the accomplishment of this end. With the view of diffusing the requisite knowledge among the people of the public domains, bee-hives, and a course of practical instruction upon the subject of bee-culture, have been established at several of the crown farms, and pupils are sent every year, at the expense of the government, to the special school in Tschernigow, founded for the purpose, in 1828. See also Commentaries on the Productive Forces of Russia By Ludwik Te;goborski Published by Longman, Brown, Green and Longmans, 1855 Original from the University of Michigan Digitized Aug 4, 2006 So here we have honey being used instead of sugar during Lent in the 19th century; perhaps this is just the Eastern Orthodox Church. An Egg At Easter mentions that prior to the Revolution, the Russians ate only vegetables, honey, fruit, and bread during Lent. The Domostroi also indicates that they ate honey during Lent. Johnnae Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 09:09:05 -0400 From: "Elaine Koogler" Subject: [Sca-cooks] More Russian Info... To: "Cooks within the SCA" Are you familiar with this site? Virtual Russian Museum: http://users.stlcc.edu/mfuller/russia.html Kiri From: Coblaith Muimnech Date: November 23, 2009 3:44:01 PM CST To: Barony of Bryn Gwlad Subject: [Bryn-gwlad] period Russian leather I know there are a few people with Russian personae in the barony, and thought they might be interested in the photos of shoes, pouches, sheaths, cases, and masks from 10th- to 15th-century Novgorod at . Some of them show very interesting decoration, and could be used as the basis for striking accessories for wear at events. Coblaith Muimnech Edited by Mark S. Harris Russia-msg Page 32 of 32