Normans-msg - 3/24/09 Norman culture, dress. References. NOTE: See also the files: Norse-msg, Italy-msg, France-msg, England-msg, fd-Normans-msg, Bayeux-Tap-msg, 12C-Normans-bib. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Actually, one of the more interesting pro-Norman arguments I've heard in the SCA ran something like this: Q: "Pfeh! By the 12th century, the Irish had distillation, brain surgery, and representative government! What did the Normans have?" A: "Ireland." Adamantius From: Elmar Vogt (8/6/93) To: Mark Harris RE>Anglo-Norman Garb Questi /* You recently asked some good questions about 11th century Norman clothing. /* /* If you get any e-mail replies that aren't posted to the Rialto, could /* you please send them my way? /* /* I am currently trying to improve my clothing. Although I am a /* 12th century anglo-norman, what you get may be of great use. /* For instance, I wasn't aware that any kind of pants was in common /* use. There are times when some braes would sure beat my long /* tunics. /* /* Lord Stefan li Rous Mark S. Harris Greetings, My Lord Stefan! Alas, I have to say, my questions seem so good, that no-one was ready to answer it! Neither on the Rialto nor with private mail have I received any answer, or at least attention, beside your kind letter. (So I was already pondering whether my post had arrvied on the Rialto at all- but at least I myself found it there...) So I am as clueless as before. What I can tell you from my humble knowledge is: There were such things as pants- several of my textbooks state two separate _Beinlinge_ for the legs, tied to a _Bruch_ around the waist. (I can send you a scanned gif, if you please). They were used throughout the middle ages until the advent of more flexible cloth, which allowed for the tension, our modern day trousers exert on our most valuable parts of anatomy when sitting. A closer examination of the invaluable Bayeux tapestry shows, that obviously the Normans also resorted to this method. People's legs are usually shown in brown or greenish hues (Although we should not put too much stress on the colors... after all they show green horses, too.), but they take tone of pale grey or white, when they wade into water or labor hard, improving fortifications. This is also the time something like kneecaps can be seen, so I assume that at this time they unleashed their _Beinlinge_. Unfortunately I don't have good color copies of the complete tapestry. So I'm not sure, whether you see several people running around with something like a tight, simple cap, or if this is just their usual haircut. I have found nothing that'd point to real hats, although I've read (in general about the middle ages), straw hats were common. (But can you imagine the Sherriff of Nottingham wearing a _straw hat_?) As for the waxing of cloth, I suppose linen would be best suited. (A wax-soaken coat of wool must be pretty heavy!) But I'll experiment on that hopefully during the next weeks and report the results to you. I'll also put this question to alt.history.costume, but I doubt that they have useful responses... the last time I asked the question about _Beinlinge_ there, the only advice I got was to ask the SCAdians... well. I hope I could be of some use to you. If you come across something new to me, or are objective to one of my statements above, don't hesitate to improve my humble and limited knowledge on the subject. The best of Greetings unto thee, Elmar, to-be Agilmar /---------------------------------------------------------------\ |Elmar Vogt/Abt. Exp. Physik/University of Ulm/89069 Ulm/Germany| |Elmar.Vogt at physik.uni-ulm.de|vogt at sunrise.e-technik.uni-ulm.de | |Phone:[00]49+731-3026 ________________________________________| |Fax: -3036 |VIS VISCERIS, NON FERRO FERTUR (T. Doom)| \---------------------------------------------------------------/ From: Elmar Vogt (8/28/93) To: Mark Harris RE>Anglo-Norman Garb Quest ... and Greetings to thee, Stefan! /* Anyway, thanks for the picture. I'm not sure I have anything else that /* shows hosen that well. But one of the most interesting details for me /* was the sword belt and hanger. Right now, I have may scabbord hanging /* like a dagger from a single loop. I had looked at more complex /* arrangements, but they were all much later than 1150. So I think this /* illustration may be just what I am looking for. I assume from the /* picture that it is one belt looped around twice, rather than two /* seperate belts. This would allow adjustment by the buckle on the top /* section of the belt. Not quite. One single belt looped twice would -considering a heavy sword to be carried- result in a very tight upper loop and a low hanging lower loop. The great book by Liliane and Fred Funcken _Historische Waffen und Ruestungen_ (Historical weapons and armours- highly recommended reading if you can find an English issue!) shows several arrangements. (I'll see whether I can scan one or two of them for you.) Essentially they are all consisting of two belts, a upper one, comparatively narrow, whose length is varied to accommodate your waist. This one carries the weight of the assembly. The lower one is broader and more richly embroidered. Its length is adapted according to the length of the sword or the height of the handle you wish, respectively. Both are connected at one point at the left hip (provided you're right-handed, as I am not...). This makes it look like- | belly| | | o===X==| |\ \ | | \X\ | at | | \ \ at | || \U | || |U "X" marks the two separate buckles, " at at UU" marks the sword. "o" is the link of the two belts. Looking forward to hearing from you again, I remain your servant, Agilmar Martell von Sevelingen /---------------------------------------------------------------\ |Elmar Vogt/Abt. Exp. Physik/University of Ulm/89069 Ulm/Germany| |Elmar.Vogt at physik.uni-ulm.de|vogt at sunrise.e-technik.uni-ulm.de | |Phone:[00]49+731-3026 ________________________________________| |Fax: -3036 |VIS VISCERIS, NON FERRO FERTUR (T. Doom)| \---------------------------------------------------------------/ From: jkubenka at sun.cis.smu.EDU (Jennifer Kubenka) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: New book about Normans Date: 11 Apr 1995 15:28:24 -0400 Good day, readers of the Rialto, Today I ran across a new book (well, 1994) that might be of interest to many of you: I Normanni : Popolo d'Europa, 1030-1200. Venezia: Marsilio, c1994. ISBN 8831758551. This monograph was published to accompany an exhibition held Jan. 29-Apr. 30 at the Palazzo Venezia in Rome. There are lots of pictures, close-ups of jewelry, artifacts, embroidery... I can't vouch for the reliability of the text, as it is in Italian, and I don't have time to translate it in detail, but it looks interesting. 590 pages worth of interesting... Emher ni Maille Barony of Elfsea Kingdom of Ansteorra Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: dbullard at ivory.trentu.ca Subject: Re: Norman Fighting Units Organization: Trent University, Peterborough Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 12:51:13 GMT In article <44mjvk$fbf at newsbf02.news.aol.com>, allyekat at aol.com (Allye Kat) writes: >I was watching "Ancient Warriors" on the Discovery channel this week and >thet referred to a Norman fighting unit called, now here's my problem, a >"Conoir"?? >I've been asking around but nobody seems to know the spelling. I'd had on >suggestion that it maybe "Conroy". Does anyone have any information on >A) The correct spelling >B) Where I can Find out more information on this > > Alix de Beaumont > Calafia, Caid The term is spelt conroy, or conrois. According to Verbruggen, Warfare in Western europe in the Middle Ages, North Holland Publishing House, 1979, the strength of the conrois varied according to the power of the liege lord. The numbers seem tpo be between 12 and 24 knights. Vladimir Blahuciak From: 00mjstum at bsuvc.bsu.edu (10/13/95) To: sca-www at andrew.cmu.edu, sca-middle at dnaco.net Subject: Norman Invation WWW page Thought some of you folks out there might be interested in this... >Thank you for the mail. You can read my Invasion pages Secrets of the >Norman Invasion on "http://www.cablenet.net/pages/book/index.htm" >I am looking for a USA mirror site and would be grateful if anyone >there is interested. > >Nick at cablenet.net >Nick Austin Gwydion From: "Joe Pinegar" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Early Normandy c912-960. Date: 4 Jun 1997 12:48:03 GMT Organization: Hoechst Marion Roussel Dain <9608721p at student.gla.ac.uk> wrote: > ek at zianet.com says... > >Does anyone know where I can find info about early Normandy? > There is a good book called Living in the tenth > century, regarding the end of the Carolingians. > Provost Dain auf Schwarzhabichte You might also try "Death and Life in the Tenth Century" by Eleanor Shipley Duckett, and "The Normans in European History" by Charles Homer haskins. These are both probably a little dated, but are still pretty good. Elina From: "Harold D Sherman" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Norman web page! Date: 26 Aug 1997 02:24:05 GMT M'lord may wish to contact the Milites Normannorum at: http://cyclone.cs.clemson.edu/~traveler/Milites/milites.html According to their material, they are a Norman reenactment group you may be interested in. Alfred Halfdane, obviously not a Norman :) From: mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Norman Persona Date: 11 May 1998 14:14:22 -0400 Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC > Normans come from the coast of France, Normandy. I don't think there were > any Norman Sicilians. Sicily was conquered by Norman adventurers in the 11th century. The Britannica On-line says: Three Hauteville brothers-- William, Drogo, and Humphrey--were among the Norman knights who flocked to southern Italy in the early 11th century. The sons of a minor Norman lord, Tancred, the three settled in southern Italy and Sicily, which were at that time a patchwork of warring towns and principalities. Serving at first as mercenaries, the brothers soon began to seize lands for themselves. They also recruited more knights for their wars and campaigns of plunder. In 1041 a Norman-Lombard force defeated a Byzantine army near Melfi. In a still greater challenge, Pope Leo IX led a combined force of local levies, Germans (Lombards), and others against the Normans at Civitate in 1053. The Normans again scored an impressive victory. A Hauteville, Robert Guiscard (c. 1015-85), a younger half brother of the earlier Hautevilles, distinguished himself and became a leader in the Norman conquests. Gradually but methodically, he drove the Byzantine forces from southern Italy. He made peace with Pope Nicholas II in 1059. Robert and his brother, Roger (1031-1101), then invaded Muslim-held Sicily. Roger became Roger I, ruler of Sicily. The Norman conquests continued until, with the fall of Bari in 1071, the last Byzantine forces had been driven from the Italian boot. Palermo in Sicily, with its great port, fell in 1072. At one time the Normans attacked the Byzantine Empire itself but had to withdraw because of revolts in Italy. Still allies of the papacy, the Norman knights became crusaders in the closing years of the 11th century. Tancred (c. 1075-1112), a Hauteville, joined the First Crusade in 1096 and gained fame as a military leader. By 1154 Roger II (1095-1154), the youngest living son of Roger I, had extended his kingdom throughout all of southern Italy and Sicily and into Greece, had taken control of part of North Africa, and had made his court at Palermo an important centre of learning and culture. Under later rulers, the Hauteville dynasty gradually faded. In 1194 King Henry VI of Germany invaded Sicily. Taking complete control of the Norman kingdom, Henry put German officials into key administrative posts. "Hauteville, HOUSE OF" Britannica Online. [Accessed 11 May 1998]. =========================================================================== Arval d'Espas Nord mittle at panix.com From: Andrew Tye Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Norman Persona Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 14:59:43 -0700 Organization: Oregon Public Networking On Mon, 11 May 1998, Larry Johnson wrote: > Elijah Morning Star Elder wrote: > > > I was thinking of trying a Norman Persona for a return to the Society. > > Does anyone know anything about or any good sources for Sicilian Normans > > Circa 1066? I mainly am interested in naming practices and Normanized > > Sicilian placenames. > > > > -ee > > Normans come from the coast of France, Normandy. I don't think there were > any Norman Sicilians. Norman is a contraction of Norsemen, and are (snippage) Ivar here, A reasonable jumping-off point for looking into the history of Norman Sicily would be David Nicolle's short book entitled _The Normans_. This is #9 in Osprey Publications' Elite series. (Note to Mr. Elder: Check at Eugene Toy & Hobby downtown on E. 11th.) The book is a decent capsule history of the Normans beginning with their establishment in Normandy; continuing through their conquest and/or settlement into England, Scotland, Wales, and Ireland; and spends the bulk of its remainder describing their adventures in Italy, Sicily, and The Levant. (This is not too suprising as Dr. Nicolle is a Mediterranianist.) According to the chapter on Italy and Sicily, Norman mercenaries began showing up in Italy in 1017 but it wasn't until 1041 that they began conquering territory in their own right under Robert Guiscard. By 1071, Normans controlled most of the southern Italian peninsula and effectivly ended Byzantine Greek rule there. The Norman invasion of Sicily began in 1080 and was completed in 1091. Norman Sicily was unified as a single state in 1127 and became a recognized kingdom in 1030. After this, the Mediterranian Norman States began to take a more active part in affairs throughout the Med. and the Middle East. I hope this is of some help. Dr. Nicolles provides a bibliography that might lead you to more detailed information regarding Sicilian Norman place names and naming practices. Ivar Hakonarson Adiantum, An Tir. From: lebatarde at aol.com (LeBatarde) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Norman Persona Date: 12 May 1998 11:40:37 GMT mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord) writes: >> Normans come from the coast of France, Normandy. I don't think there were >> any Norman Sicilians. > >Sicily was conquered by Norman adventurers in the 11th century. If I may suggest, get a copy of The Other Conquest, by John Julius Norwich, Published by Harper & Row. 1967. Library of Congress Catalog Card #67-22506. It was also published in England under the title The Normans in the South 1016-1130. I think you will find this an excellent source, and a great place to start. jehan From: "Steven Maynard" To: Subject: The Normans Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 20:31:59 +1000 Greetings my lord Stefan, I'm not sure but I think it was you who replied to my request about information on the Normans to Rialto asking that if I came across any to let you know well I found this great book all about the history of the Normans in Sicily. It's called "The Normans in Sicily" by John Julius Norwich. It's published in Peguin Paperback. ISBN 0-14-015212-1. It's a very coprehensive history of the Sicilian Kingdom and gives a great insight into the Normans. Wiulliam Castille MKA Steve Maynard. From: chimericalgirl at home.com (StrangeGirl) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Braid casings Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 19:48:59 GMT "JE Anderson" shouted over the general babble in a vain attempt to be heard: >Greetings, >Not my area of expertise - but have you checked out extant statuary? >Funerary statues and architectural staues (columns) of the time period. I'm >pretty sure I recal seeing braid cases on ladies in that art type. I could >be wrong though - just a thought. All the Norman ladies I have been able to find in statuary (and there really are not that many extant ones, as most statuarey represented men and some data comes from 200-year-old drawings of statuary that has since been destroyed or otherwise lost and so have to be considered tertiary sources) have one of the three following types of headdress: 1} what appear to be ordinary three-strand braids, sometimes with an apparent ribbon or ribbons braided in and then used to bind the ends. Sometimes topped with a veil and/or crown. 2} What appears to be a two-strand hairdressing, which is bound into a 'braid' by the use of a ribbon, leaving largish portions (what would be a range form about 2" to less than 1/2" graduated down the length of the braid) of hair showing, in one of two methods. Sometimes topped with a veil and/or crown. Possible method one: two ends of a ribbon which is presumably looped around the hair near the top and then woven around the two sections of hair alternately (technically a four-strand braid), and the loose ends more tightly bound off by wrapping both ends around the hair leaving no hair showing and tying somehow or sewing down. Possible method two: one end of a ribbon which is presumably passed through or around the head somehow and then woven around the two sections of hair alternately (technically a three-strand braid with a differing visible structure due to the different proportions of the various elements), and the loose ends more tightly bound off with no hair showing, using the single end of the ribbon and a method similar to modern hair wraps. I have used both of these methods with some success to emulate the appearance of the statues' 'two-strand' braids. It is possible that these are depictions of ladies using false hair that is bound onto the head with ribbons, but there is no way to be certian without building a time-machine. 3} Loose or no visible deliberate hair arrangement (hidden except for hairline at front of head), topped with a veil and/or crown. This is corroborated by everything I have been able to find in manuscript illustrations, wall paintings, tapestry and other textile depictions. Braid casings would probably have been made, if they existed, of a decorative fabric that would have been happily depicted as such in bright or symbolic colours by the various visual artists. I have not yet seen any in my researches into the dress of the period. Also, I have begun to read up on romantic poetry of the era and have not found any written references to such accoutrements of dress in the translations I have read (not reading Norman French at all and Latin very little). Wish I could say I /had/ found something, buyt I haven't :( False hair seems to be the way to go. Margery La A -*-*- Stepford Goth & Rare Human Squeaky Toy -*-*- "Just imagine setting them on fire and watching them running around screaming. That's what keeps me going." {*reply to the from address*} From: chimericalgirl at home.com (StrangeGirl) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Braid casings Organization: The Corner of my Desk Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 17:30:58 GMT marianneperdomo at netscape.net (Marianne Perdomo Leonor) shouted over the general babble in a vain attempt to be heard: >It's not my area of expertise at all but I wonder if someone got >confused with later styles that did use cases and the re-drawn books >just perpetuated the myth. Certainly braid casings are used in 15th >c. Spain (and Italy, too, I think). They are usually white with >contrasting ribbons. Sounds quite likely. Norris liked to conflate things. Or depend heavily on someone else's conflations (Voillet-le-duc...), even when they were contrary to all logic. >Nice summary of 12th c. hairdo's, BTW! :) Thanks! You are welcome! It doesn't cover the three or four main styles of veil-wearing, but I imagine you are pretty familiar with those. Here are my main sources for the photographs I studied: Statuary examples: Chartres Cathedral, Robert Branner, editor. (Norton Critical Studies in Art History)ISBN 0 393 09851 6 Out of print, my copy was purchased used. Probably available in larger libraries. note: This is primarily focused on Chartres, but does cover some of the other churches in this style for the purpose of comparison. Since it looks at /all/ of the works in Chartres, it covers the 12th through 14th centuries. Sculptors of the West Portals of Chartres Cathedral, Whitney S. Stoddard. (also published by Norton) ISBN 0-393-30043-9 Again, out of print, my copy purchased used. Note: This focuses on the sculptural style and era of the West Portals of Chartres and has plates of numerous related carvings, including Monfaucon's drawings of statuary that is now lost of badly damaged. Since it is an attempt to track the work of the various scupltors in this era by their styles, it has one of the best combinations of text and plates for the purpose of costume research using these works. Some comparisons between statuary and illumination styles are made and illustrated with examples, which is helpful to us in trying to interpret what's /really/ going on in both. Illumination, textile, and other visual art examples: Dress in the Middle Ages, Franciose Pipponnier and Perrine Mane. (Yale University Press) hardcover ed, ISBN 0-300-06906-5 Note: This is included because it's the onlybook I have ever seen a photo of the Chelles Reliquary (p 10, fig 3), apparently originally not a religious item, as the subject amtter isn't religious in any way. It shows a scene of a knight and a lady in a garden(?) he with a hawk and she with a small dog or cat on a leash. The embrodery is crude, but it does show the lady's braids, which seem to have been carefully stitched to depict wrappings. The text is also fascinating, but really doesn't seem to have much to offer us in this period. The Pictorial Arts of the West 800-1200, C.R. Dodwell. (Yale University Press) ISBN 0-300-06493-4 Note: A fantastic resource for those of us who work in this period. Organized by place, with dates given where known. All kinds of sources not easily available elsewhere, reproduced beautifully. The only gripe I have is that I wish there was some way to have fullsized, color images of all the textiles given, which includes two gorgeous, embroidered cloaks. Also, hunt around on museum and university websites. Sometimes there are treasures to be found, like student photoessays of Chartres. Probably more than you wanted to know :) MArgery La A. -*-*- Stepford Goth & Rare Human Squeaky Toy -*-*- "Just imagine setting them on fire and watching them running around screaming. That's what keeps me going." {*reply to the from address*} Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 13:40:38 -0500 From: rmhowe To: - Atlantia , - Authenticity List , - Regia Anglorum - North America , "- SCA-ARTS at listsvr.pca.net" Subject: Medieval Sculpture Book This is a particularly magnificent book on medieval sculpture. Kilpeck church is primarily English Norman Romanesque with lots of animal heads, etc. One of the most beautifully detailed churches in England. The book contains more than just Kilpeck though. Very useful for details on all sorts of items. The Herefordshire School of Sculpture and Kilpeck Church F C Morgan, Illustrated by Photos (lots of them). I got my copy through http://www.abebooks.com/ Ran me less than $15. Well worth it. Or try http://www.bookfinder.com/ It's a fairly current book and should be in print. Magnus Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 10:19:40 -0500 (EST) From: Subject: [SCA-AS] Re: [SCALibrarians] Normans in Southern Europe (fwd) To: Isabel Ximenez de Gauicin Cc: Arts and Sciences in the SCA , EK_AnS at yahoogroups.com Thought these sources might be useful to you all -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 10:09:28 EST From: SNSpies at aol.com To: SCALibrarians at topica.com Subject: Re: [SCALibrarians] Normans in Southern Europe There are three sources that will give you information about what was being worn in the Mediterranean basin during the Middle Ages: Broadhurst, Roland. "The Travels of Ibn Jubayr". New Delhi: Goodword Books, 2001. This is a first-hand account of a Spanish Muslim's 12th-century pilgrimage to the Holy Cities of Islam; on the way, he spent some time in Sicily. Of interest to those looking for information on garb at that time is this statement: "The Christian women of this city [Palermo] follow the fashion of Muslim women, are fluent of speech, wrap their cloaks about them, and are veiled. They to forth on this Feast Day [Christmas] dressed in robes of gold-embroidered silk, wrapped in elegant cloaks, concealed by coloured veils, and shod in gilt slippers. Thus they parade to their churches, or (rather) their dens ..., bearing all the adornments of Muslim women, including jewellery, henna on the fingers, and perfumes." pp. 349-350 Goitein, S.D. "A Mediterranean Society". Berkeley: University of California Press, 1978. This is an amazing 6-volume set of books that gives a vivid picture of the Jewish communities (and hence, all the communities) of the Arab world in the Mediterranean basin fromthe 9th to the 13th century based on documents found in the Cairo Geniza. Of particular note is Volume IV: Daily Life which has massive details about clothing, jewellery, home furnishings, and food. These six volumes are inexpensively available through on-line book sellers like Scholar's Bookshelf. "Petrus de Ebulo: Liber ad honorem Augusti sive de rebus Siculis". Sigmaringen: Jan Thorbecke Verlag, 1994. This is the heavily-illuminated manuscript done at the end of the 12th century in the royal scriptorium in Palermo. Nancy Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 06:44:47 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Oratio de Utensilibus was 12th century To: Cooks within the SCA > Now, speaking of the 12th century (1100-1200): has anybody seen 'De > utensilibus ad domum regendam pertinentibus' of Adam du Petit Pont/ > Adam Parvipontanus? > Serafina There's a full title The Oratio de Utensilibus ad Domum Regendam Pertinentibus by Adam of Balsham Author(s): Patrizia Lendinara (/Lendinara, Patrizia/ Series Volume: Periodical: Anglo-Norman Studies 15 Pages: 161-176 Publication Date: 1992 Johnnae From: "willowdewisp at juno.com" Date: June 20, 2007 3:51:49 PM CDT To: ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org Subject: [Ansteorra] persona Anglo-Saxon embroidery Early period people did a lot of embroidery especially the Anglo Saxons. I read somewhere that the Normans really showed off the tunics they got from England and many of them desired Anglo-Saxon wives because of their skills with the needle. This site give lots of info on embroidery, patterns and stitches. http://needleprayse.webcon.net.au/research/anglo_saxon_handout.html willow Edited by Mark S. Harris Normans-msg Page 13 of 13