Netherlands-msg - 4/27/99 Medieval Netherlands and Belgium. NOTE: See also the files: France-msg, Gaul-art, Europe-msg, Angl-Saxons-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called StefanÕs Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://lg_photo.home.texas.net/florilegium/index.html I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with seperate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the orignator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: Lord Stefan li Rous RSVE60@email.sps.mot.com stefan@texas.net ************************************************************************ From: baronfum@netaxs.com (David K. Schreur) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: The Low Countries ? Date: Mon, 07 Oct 1996 22:56:57 -0500 mvdamme@xs4all.nl (Maarten van Damme) wrote: > Lately I have seen many SCA websites but none of them seems to deal > with medieval history, weapons, battles, arts etc. in the Low > Countries also known as The Netherlands (present day Belgium and The > Netherlands). You can find naming practices in Germany, Britain and > France and again skipping our part of the world. I know for a fact > that we have had an interesting and varied history between 800 and > 1400. We had battles, so we must have used weapons, but which ones? > We were dressed but in what? Did we loan from our neighbours or did we > have our own styles? > > Maarten van Damme Through most of the SCA period the "Low Countries" of Holland and Brabandt were a part of the Holy Roman Empire. They borrowed heavily on the areas of Lower Saxony (Niedersachsen) for costume and armor. In the later part of the fourteenth and early part of the fifteenth century they were known for seamanship and trade in the north sea, and Simon van Utrecht in his ship, The Brindled Cow, cleared the Baltic of the pirates of the Vitalian Brotherhood. Brabandt was also influenced by the French to their west. Late in period these lands, mostly Hapsburg, became the property of the Spanish through Charles V, the Holy Roman Emperor and Spanish King. At the very end of period they revolted against the Spanish rule and Challenged the Hanseatic and English for supremacy in the North Sea and North Atlantic. My own Personna is Hanseatic, but comes from Lower Saxony very near the Low Countries and could probably have spit across the border, but for merchantile reasons I have an office in Lubeck on the Baltic. -- David K. Schreur (Ritter Baron Meister Karl Aerdigwidder von Zauberberg) Barony of Bhakail, East Kingdom From: david_key@vnet.ibm.com (Dave Key) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: The Low Countries ? Date: 8 Oct 1996 08:38:28 GMT Organization: IBM UK Laboratories Ltd. baronfum@netaxs.com (David K. Schreur) writes: >Through most of the SCA period the "Low Countries" of Holland and Brabandt >were a part of the Holy Roman Empire. They borrowed heavily on the areas >of Lower Saxony (Niedersachsen) for costume and armor. < ... snip ...> >Late in period these lands, mostly Hapsburg, became the property of the >Spanish through Charles V, the Holy Roman Emperor and Spanish King. Surprising omission of the influence of the Burgundians. During the c15th Flanders was a VERY important part of the Burgundian 'empire' of Philip & Charles the Bold. The conflicts between the trading interests of England & Flanders playing a major role in the international politics of the time (have a look at some of the Act of Chancery & the Paston letters in the Labyrinth). The peoples of Flanders were very independent & played a major role in the trade & culture of Europe ... Flemish woollen cloth being the finest in the c13th-c14th (using English wool) ... until Flemish immigrants helped raise the English cloth export market to beat it in the c14th-c15th. As to their influence of clothing !!! Most of the finest (non-Italian) art of the fifteenth century comes from Flanders ... Jan Van Eyck etc. etc. and shows the major influence of Flanders ... the Burgundian (ie Flemish) court was the fashion leader of the period. When John Donne was painted by Memlic c.1475 it was in the Flemish style not English & Edward IV bought gowns in the 'Dutch guise' on his return from exile in 1470-1471. There is also an article by Margaret Scott on a Burgundian visit to Scotland in c.1448 (in 'Costume' if you can get it) which hints at some of the difference between backward Scottish & fashionable Flemish dress. As for armour ... If I recall correctly Flemish-style armour (essentially a cross between the plain Italian & fluted German) was very popular in mid-15thC England. If you have been reading books which play down the role of Flanders ... you have been reading the wrong books. Dave From: tjordan001@aol.com (TJorDan001) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: The Low Countries ? Date: 8 Oct 1996 21:19:33 -0400 Let us not forget the most notorious export of the Low Countries, Mercenaries. Flemish and Brabantine mercenaries found employment throughout Europe. Some authors go so far as to refer to "Brabantines" when they are refering to 'mercenaries'. Jester of Anglesea From: kellogg@rohan.sdsu.edu (kellogg) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Websites for the Low Countries (was: Re: The Low Countries ?) Date: 8 Oct 1996 17:33:56 GMT Organization: San Diego State University Computing Services Maarten van Damme (mvdamme@xs4all.nl) wrote: : Lately I have seen many SCA websites but none of them seems to deal : with medieval history, weapons, battles, arts etc. in the Low : Countries also known as The Netherlands (present day Belgium and The : Netherlands). : Could some knowledgeable person tell me more about this or refer me to : websites which might answer my many questions? There is an interesting-looking bibliography at <URL: http:// www.roughguides.com/RG_WWW/morebks/hol_bks.html>. The Tromso Museum has a website at <URL: http://beatles.imv.uit.no /homepage_imv.uit.no.html>. However, it is in Dutch, so I can't tell if it is of any use or not. Try the Museums in Netherlands page at <URL: http://www.xxLINK.nl/ tourism/museums/home.htm>. Dozens of museums listed, bound to find something useful there. Also try the Museums in Amsterdam page at <URL: http://www.channels.nl/m.html>. Looks like lots of interesting links there. Good luck, hope you find some interesting materials. In fact, let us know what you find, I'm sure others can benefit from your work. Avenel Kellough From: ksp8305@osfmail.isc.rit.edu (K.S. Palmer) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: The Low Countries ? Date: 17 Oct 1996 21:27:21 GMT I accidentally found an excellent book for some background on rennaissance Holland. It's called "Daily Life in Holland in the Year 1566" by Rien Poortvliet. It's actually in the art section of the bookstore rather than history. You could also look at "In My Grandfather's House" by the same author. Adelais -- Karyn Palmer KSP8305@rit.edu http://www.rit.edu/~ksp8305 From: "g. koster" <g.koster@chem.leidenuniv.nl> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: The Low Countries ? Date: 18 Oct 1996 09:19:56 GMT Organization: Gorlaeus lab. Leiden University Holland ksp8305@osfmail.isc.rit.edu (K.S. Palmer) wrote: >I accidentally found an excellent book for some background on >rennaissance Holland. It's called "Daily Life in Holland in the Year >1566" by Rien Poortvliet. It's actually in the art section of the >bookstore rather than history. You could also look at "In My >Grandfather's House" by the same author. > >Adelais I should warn you that it is not supprising you did find this book in the art collection. Rien Poortvliet is primarely a painter. If it is only him who did write de book I should put to must value on it. Overhere he is best known for his animal drawings. If hy did write it with some one else that person is probably responseble for the historic accuracy. The strange thing I never hurd of this book of him, Although I hurd of vijf or so other books of him, All writen in dutch as was "In my Grandfather's House" Douwe Johannus -- Drs. G. Koster Leiden University, Leiden Institute of Chemistry, Gorlaeus Laboratories. Address: Einsteinweg 55 P.O. Box 9502 2300 RA Leiden The Netherlands. TeleFax: +31 71 5274537 Phone: +31 71 5274513 Email: koster_g@chem.leidenuniv.nl home adres: Drs. G. Koster Lokhorst 69 2352 KE Leiderdorp The Netherlands home phone: +31 71 5418563 From: brianscott@aol.com (BrianScott) Newsgroups: alt.heraldry.sca Subject: Re: Flemish resources Date: 15 Jan 1997 22:55:25 GMT Nicholas Bollaert asked: Does anyone have any good reference sources for the low countries circa 13th and 14th centuries? I have a study of 13th c. names from Kortrijk and another of names from some of the records of the town of Ieper between 1250 and 1400, both in Dutch. The former is one of many such works by F. Debrabandere; the latter is by Wilfried Beele. Talan Gwynek Do Not Use: brianscott@aol.com Always Use: scott@math.csuohio.edu From: mittle@panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord) Newsgroups: alt.heraldry.sca Subject: Re: Flemish resources Date: 16 Jan 1997 14:17:17 -0500 Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC Nicholas Bollaert wrote: > Does anyone have any good reference sources for the low countries > circa 13th and 14th centuries? There are some articles on Dutch and Flemish names at my names web page, http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/. There is one article on Flemish armory in the Academy of St. Gabriel libary at http://www.us.itd.umich.edu/~ximenez/s.gabriel/docs/, but it was drawn from 16th century sources. If you need more, you might direct your question to the Academy at http://www.us.itd.umich.edu/~ximenez/s.gabriel/gabemail.html. We have a specialist in Dutch and Flemish names and armory. =========================================================================== Arval d'Espas Nord mittle@panix.com From: dalton@ea.net (Nancy Dalton) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Flemish resources Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 13:23:16 GMT Greetings, Medieval Flanders, by David Nicholas, ISBN 0 582 01679 7 CSD, 1992. It covers Flanders politics, economics, arts, and trades from 600 to 1477. The only thing it does not have is pictures :) Nancy Dalton ska Earnwynn van Zwaluwenburg From: djheydt@uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Hoerning grave (Danish ca 1000) Date: 22 Jan 1997 16:20:44 GMT Organization: University of California at Berkeley Maggie Mulvaney <mulvanem@fp.co.nz> wrote: >...According to the source it was a woman buried on >a cart, in an early Christian burial. The interesting thing is the >remains of her garment. All that remains is a rather wide band of >silverworked tabletwoven braid, which lies loose on her left side and >is wrapped around her right arm. .... Based on what I've read, I suspect the woman was wearing a common Germanic early-period garment sometimes called a "tube dress" or "Haengerock." This resembled (to some extent) a Greek peplos, and consisted of a tube of fabric (apparently fabric could be woven in a continuous tube on a warp-weighted loom, don't ask *me* how they did it), say four feet in length and maybe four or five feet in circumference. Weaving one on a warp-weighted loom began with weaving a band of tablet-woven braid, into which a pair of warps were inserted at every turn of the tablets. You wound up with a length of braid with a very long fringe dangling from it; these became the warps of the woven fabric. When it was all done, you had a length (or in this case tube) of fabric with a tablet-woven band neatly finishing off one end of it, You could then sew a second tablet-woven band onto the other edge. To put the dress on, you stepped into the tube and pinned it with brooches above each shoulder, so that the top edge (where the braid was) ran from the left-hand brooch, across the front to the right-hand brooch, under your right armpit, up to the brooch again, across your back to the left-hand brooch, under your left armpit, up to the brooch again. I'd like to see a drawing of just how the braid was found in situ, and just what the excavators meant by "wrapped around the arm." But if it only went around the arm once, that is, from the top of the shoulder under the armpit to the top of the shoulder again, then it would fit. Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt Mists/Mists/West Albany, California PRO DEO ET REGE djheydt@uclink From: mulvanem@fp.co.nz (Maggie Mulvaney) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Hoerning grave (Danish ca 1000) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 23:52:01 GMT djheydt@uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote: <suggestion of hangerock snipped> Yes, she was possibly wearing one of those, there are other bits of braid that fit that rather well. But the very wide braid that I was talking about does not, really. I would have thought it was a cloak, rather than a dress. As has been pointed out already the word dragt can be translated as 'costume' rather than 'dress' per se. What contradicted this was the fact that it was the author himself who had translated it into the English summary (not that that rules out a mistranslation!). He also uses the word 'dress' in the captions of the pictures, but here he talks about 'the silverworked dress', so I guess that further points to a mistranslation. The precise wording (my translation) is 'the dead was wearing a *garment* edged with a silverworked, tabletwoven braid. One of these was a ca. 5 cm wide and 2.5 m long braid with a rhomboid pattern, that from the brow ran down both sides of the body. The garment must have been hanging loose down the left side of the body, while on the other side it was wrapped around the right lower arm. In addition there are some 2-2.5 cm wide braid, also with silverworked patterns, that were placed by the shoulders, by the wrists and along the thigh bone.' There is also a picture of how the grave looked, and the braid she mentions looks to me like it went around the arm at the shoulders. There is also a piece by the thigh bone, as stated, which is wrapped around itself at the top (halfway down the thigh, and reaches to the knee. Interesting, no? Muireann ingen Eoghain ********************************************************** * MMY * mulvanem@fp.co.nz * * Maggie Mulvaney * http://www.nmia.com/~entropy/maggie/ * ********************************************************** From: mulvanem@fp.co.nz (Maggie Mulvaney) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Hoerning grave (Danish ca 1000) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 01:59:17 GMT On Thu, 23 Jan 1997 23:52:01 GMT, mulvanem@fp.co.nz (Maggie Mulvaney) wrote: >There is also a picture of how the grave looked, and the braid she >mentions looks to me like it went around the arm at the shoulders. >There is also a piece by the thigh bone, as stated, which is wrapped >around itself at the top (halfway down the thigh, and reaches to the >knee. Doh. By 'the braid *he* mentions' I mean the narrower braid... Apologies. Muireann ********************************************************** * MMY * mulvanem@fp.co.nz * * Maggie Mulvaney * http://www.nmia.com/~entropy/maggie/ * ********************************************************** Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 14:15:05 EDT From: <EalasaidS@aol.com> To: sca-arts@raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Flemish dress? > A friend of mine needs help in finding pictures of flemish dress for the > late 14th, early 15th century any tips would be of help :-) > Anna de Byxe Tell your friend to go to a library or good book store and look for books on Rogier van der Weyden. He's a 14th century Flemish painter. He did lots of portraits and gave a lot of loving detail to the clothes his subjects were wearing. Jan van Eyck is also a good source, but I can't remember at the moment if he is the right time period. I've lent my Flemish art books out at the moment, so can't be more specific. But there were lots of Flemish painters in the 14-15th centuries, so she shouldn't have any problems find great pictures. Ealasaid nic Shuibne Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 22:01:26 -0400 From: Carol Thomas <scbooks@neca.com> To: sca-arts@raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Flemish dress? Painters in the 14th & 15th in Flanders: the names with asterisks should be easier to find/less obscure than the others. The following comes from an old book with lots of plates: _Flemish Painting from the van Eycks to Metsys_ by Leo van Peyvelde, McGraw Hill, 1968, SBN 07-050980-8. It predates ISBN. Melchior Broederlam, circa 1395 Peter of Brussels - mentioned as just before the van Eyck's *Hubert van Eyck, early 15th, did some paintings jointly with Jan van Eyck. Hubert seems to have been painting at least 1404-1432; Jan at least 1432-1439. The Master of Flemalle - a contemporary of the van Eyck's. *Roger van der Weyden - survived Jan vE by 20 years. Petrust Christus started painting circa 1440, apparently. Dieric Bouts painted 1458-1475. Hugo van der Goes 1467 on. Josse van Wassenhove - around the same time. *Jan Memlic, about 1473 on. Gerard David, about 1484 to 1623. Lady Carllein <the end> Edited by Mark S. Harris Netherlands-msg