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Mongols-msg - 9/27/15


Mongol culture, bibliography. Mongol horses.


NOTE: See also the files: Russia-msg, East-Eur-msg, Hungary-msg, yurts-msg, livestock-msg, kumiss-msg, dairy-prod-msg.





This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.


This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org


I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.


The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.


Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).


Thank you,

   Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                         Stefan at florilegium.org



From: NAHUM HAZEV (6/14/93)

To: markh at terminator

Yurt (from Corun)

From:"Corun MacAnndra" 11-JUN-1993 09:02:45.92

To:    IN%"FNKLSHTN at ACFcluster.NYU.EDU"

Subj:  RE: Yurt


Greetings and peace,


Yes, I could send some cultural info on the yurt as well. Some points

of interest. When setting up the yurt, put the door facing southeast.

This was done so that light coming in the roof ring during would light

specific parts of the yurt at the proper time of the day. For example,

by the end of the day, the light would fall on the kitchen area where

dinner was prepared. There was a man's side and a woman's side to the

yurt. There was a cosmology to the yurt as well, linking it with the

universe. In the center of the yurt is the hearth. Opposite the door

on the far side of the yurt is the altar. Clockwise from the door and

around the hearth we have seating for the man's guests, the honoured

guest, the man, the woman, the woman's honoured guest, women's guests,

until coming back to just right of the door (facing into the yurt) we

have the place for the children and servants. This is also the kitchen

side of the yurt. On the women's side is also the bed. Also, the yurt

is owned by the woman, whose job is to maintain the home and hearth,

and to raise the children and make the felt etc. The men own the herds,

and hunt and protect. A Mongol adage is to never have more wives than

yurts. The idea being that each wife had her own and there was no

rivalry between wives.


The cosmology that I spoke of above goes like this; the hearth, the

hearth square, the yurt, the four corners of the earth, the earth,

the universe. Thus all was linked with the home, and the home being

mobile was always part of the universe.


I hope this helps. I'll send plans as soon as I can.


In service,




From: doconnor at sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Period Terms of Venery

Date: 2 Jul 93 04:10:48

Organization: Intel i960(tm) Architecture


deane at binah.cc.brandeis.edu (David Matthew Deane) writes:

] I suppose a group of mongols is a horde


If you're a barbarian European, maybe. "Horde" is a corruption

of the Mongol "ordu", which means "homeland" more than "bunch of".

The only Mongol group-name I can recall right now is "tumen":

a military unit of (when formed) 10,000 Mongols, I think.


Dennis O'Connor                          doconnor at sedona.intel.com



From: greg at bronze.lcs.mit.edu (Greg Rose)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Chinese - yes or no ??

Date: 29 Jun 1993 16:08:13 -0400

Organization: MIT LCS guest machine


Fiacha writes:


>I do not know of any Mongol games so I make no judgement in that area.


The two principal Mongol games of which I am aware are Nishapur and

Rug-by (but you need an Abbasid and a cavalry turma to play the latter).





From: corun at access.digex.net (Corun MacAnndra)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Chinese - yes or no ??

Date: 29 Jun 1993 19:08:28 -0400

Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA


In article <20q7fd$2o0 at bronze.lcs.mit.edu> greg at bronze.lcs.mit.edu (Greg Rose) writes:

>Fiacha writes:

>>I do not know of any Mongol games so I make no judgement in that area.

>The two principal Mongol games of which I am aware are Nishapur and

>Rug-by (but you need an Abbasid and a cavalry turma to play the latter).


There is another called Aklagh Tarteesh, which translates loosely as "picking

up sheep at a gallop." No, really.




   Corun MacAnndra    | God runs electromagnetics on Mon., Wed. and Fri. by

Dark Horde by birth  | the wave theory and the Devil runs it by quantum

   Moritu by choice   | theory Tue., Thur. and Sat. -- Sir Wm. Bragg



From: adelekta at kentvm.kent.edu

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Chinese - yes or no ??

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 93 13:07:03 EST

Organization: Kent State Univ.


corun at access.digex.net (Corun MacAnndra) writes:

>There is another called Aklagh Tarteesh, which translates loosely as "picking

>up sheep at a gallop." No, really.

This sounds remarkably similar to bozkashi, a central asian game whose name

translates as "goat catch."  These livestock games sound like a pretty common

nomadic pastime...   :)

-Zimra al-Ghaziyah



From: doconnor at sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Baptism (was Neo Paga

Date: 11 Aug 93 08:02:44


bettina.helms at channel1.com (Bettina Helms) writes:

] SH> CLB> However, from other posts, I see that a "baptism" implies that

] SH> CLB> it is a "Christian baptism". I am not planning a Christian baptism.


] SH>Ok. Then it's not a baptism in any usual sense, since the custom of either

] SH>dripping water, or dunking the person in it, is a Christian ceremony that

] SH>so far as I have ever heard doesn't have an exact analogy to any other

] SH>religion. Many religions have some sort of ceremony welcoming the new

] SH>person, but they aren't specifically baptisms.


] Such fragmentary records as we have of the Eleusinian Mysteries suggest

] that a whole-body dip in the sea was part of the initiation ritual...and

] it *has* been noted that "Christian" baptism started out as a

] fringe-Jewish thing (a special variant of the ritual cleansing of the

] mikveh?). Water-based purification ceremonies appear to be especially

] popular in hot climates, which stands to reason. :-)


Bathing in the Ganges river to purify oneself is a popular modern

Hindu (I think) custom.


Of course, Mongols were forbidden by the Yassa, the Law of Chingiss Kahn,

from polluting water sources, which prohibition included bathing in them.


Dennis O'Connor                          doconnor at sedona.intel.com



From: Judith L. Tabron

To: Mark Harris

Date: 12/28/93


Greetings to my lord Stefan,


Following is the bibliography in its current state -- I hope you find some use

for it, and let me know if it has been of use to anyone.




Contemporaries of Marco Polo.  Consisting of the Travel Records to the Eastern

Parts of the World of William of Rubruck [1253-1255]; the Journey of John of

Pian de Carpini [1245-1247]; the Journal of Friar Odoric [1318-1330] & the

Original Travels of Rabbi Benjamin of Tudela [1160-1173].  Manuel Komroff.  New

York: Boni & Liveright, Inc., 1928.  

Mission to Asia.  C. Dawson.  New York: n.p., 1966. Reprinted 1979.  

The Book of Ser Marco Polo the Venetian concerning the kingdoms and marvels of

the East.  H. Cordier.  Trans. Sir Henry Yule and H. Cordier.  London: n.p.,


The Mongol Mission.  C. Dawson.  London and New York: n.p., 1955.  

The Monks of Kublai Khan, emperor of China.  Trans. E. A. W. Budge.  London:

n.p., 1928.  

The Secret History of the Mongols.  Trans. F. W. Cleaves.  Cambridge, MA:

Harvard University Press, 1982.  

Akner, Grigor of.  "History of the Nation of the Archers (the Mongols) by

Grigor of Akanc" [sic.].  Trans. R. P. Blake and R. N. Frye.  n.p.: HJAS, XII,


al-Din, Rashid.  The successors of Genghis Khan.  Trans. J. A. Boyle.  London

and New York: n.p., 1971.  

Battuta, Ibn.  The travels of Ibn Battuta, A.D. 1325-1354.  Trans. H. A. R.

Gibb. Cambridge: Hakluyt Society, 2nd ser., CX, CXVII, CXLI, 1958. Reprinted


Boyer, Martha.  Mongol Jewellry: Researches on the Silver Jewellry collected by

the First and Second Danish Central Asian Expeditions under the leadership of

Henning Haslund-Christensen, 1936-37 and 1938-39.  Kobenhavn: Gyldendalski

Boghandel, Nordisk Forlag, 1952.  

Boyle, J. A.  The Mongol World Empire.  London: Variorum Reprints, Collected

Studies series, 1977.  

Brooke, R. B.  The Coming of the Friars.  London: n.p., 1975.  

Chambers, J.  The Devil's Horsemen, 2nd ed.  London: n.p., 1988.  

Hansen, Henny Harald.  Mongol Costumes: Researches on the Garments Collected by

the First and Second Danish Central Asian Expeditions under the leadership of

Henning Haslund-Christensen, 1936-37 and 1938-39.  Kobenhavn: Gyldendalski

Boghandel, Nordisk Forlag, 1950.  This is *the* source for descriptions and

even patterns of Mongol clothes, including hats, footwear, etc.

Haslund-Christensen, Henning.  The Music of the Mongols: Eastern Mongolia.  New

York: Da Capo Press, 1971.  Has pictures of music instruments and sheet music.

Henthorn, W.  Korea.  The Mongol Invasions.  Trans. G. Samuel.  Leiden: n.p.,


Hessig, W.  The Religions of Mongolia.  Trans. G. Samuel.  London: n.p., 1980.  

Howorth, H. H.  History of the Mongols from the 9th to the 19th Century.

London: n.p., 1876.  

Juivaini, 'Ala-ad-Din 'Ata-Malik.  The History of the World-Conquerer.  Trans.

John Andrew Boyle, Ph.D.  Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1958.  

Marshall, Robert.  Storm from the East.  Berkeley, Los Angeles: University of

California Press, 1993. This book accompanies the popular PBS series.


Morgan, David. O.  The Mongols (The Peoples of Europe).  Cambridge, MA & Oxford

U.K.: Blackwell, 1986.  

Moule, A. C.  Christians in China before the year 1550.  Cambridge: n.p., 1930.  

Moule, A. C.  Christians in China before the year 1550.  Oxford: n.p., 1986.  

Moule, A. C.  Quinsai, with other notes on Marco Polo.  Cambridge: n.p., 1957.  

Needham, J.  Clerks and craftsmen in China and the West.  Cambridge: n.p.,


Olschki, L.  Guillaume Boucher, a French artist at the court of the Khans.

Baltimore: n.p., 1946.  

Phillips, E. D.  The Mongols.  London: n.p., 1969.  

Polo, Marco.  Il milione (The Travels of Marco Polo).  Trans. A. Ricci.

London: Broadway Travellers, 1931.  

Polo, Marco.  The Travels of Marco Polo.  Trans. Ronald Latham.  London:

Penguin Books, 1958.  

Ratchnevsky, Paul.  Genghis Khan: His Life and Legacy.  Thomas Nivison Haining.

Trans. T. N. Haining.  Oxford U.K. & Cambridge MA: Blackwell, 1991. Reprinted


Rubruck, William of.  The Mission of Friar William of Rubruck: His Journey to

the court of the Great Khan Mongke 1253-1255.  Trans. Peter Jackson.  London:

The Hakluyt Society , 1990.  This is GREAT fun to read, and *the* period source

for information on the Mongols.

Yule, Sir Henry.  Cathay and the way thither.  H. Cordier.  London: Hakluyt

Society, 2nd ser. XXXIII, XXXVII, XXXVIII, XLI, 191316.  



This version: Dec. 27, 1993


Compiled by Etain macDhomnuill, Khanate Snow Leopard, of the household of the

Great Dark Horde.


With assistance from Raedwynn aet thaem Grenan Wuda, Dark Horde

and Giuliana del Fiore, Bergantal




Please email additions or corrections to:

Internet: tabron at binah.cc.brandeis.edu

CompuServe: 75330,2000


From: dmvolmut at ukanaix.cc.UKans.EDU (David Volmut)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: mongoloid persona

Date: 13 Dec 1993 02:29:04 -0500


> I personally would like a

> bit more than just a few paragraphs of information.  I think what bot h the

> requester and myself are looking for is what some of the more experienced and

> knowledgeble members of The Society consider to be reliable sources, rather

> than opinionated or sound bite versions.


> Your Servant,


> Grey.


I missed the initial question. If you are looking for books about Mongol

stuff here are a few good ones.


James Chambre _The Devil's Horsemen_

Peter Jackson _The Mission of Friar William of Rurbruck_ a good book for

those wanting detailed everyday life stuff.

DAvid Morgan _The Mongols_


Hope this helps,


Gilligan of Eire



From: corun at access3.digex.net (Corun MacAnndra)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Mongol stargazers

Date: 4 Mar 1994 17:03:09 -0500

Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA


Dennis O'Connor <doconnor at sedona.intel.com> wrote:

>] >This talk of moon and earth and stars and sky seems the useless

>] >banter of softy, idle city folk. Better to spend the time tending

>] >the herds, or hunting, or others of the neccesary business of men.

>] >The gods have so made the heavens that men can know their way,

>] >and judge the coming of the seasons, by observing them. For this

>] >men should be grateful, and not in their arrogance presume to know

>] >how the gods provide this boon to them.

>] >

>] >                       Buri Dogshin, Mongol

>Those of our shamans who have true visions of the future tell us

>that in the years beyond our own, some of the People who Dwell

>in Felt Tents shall fall prey to the tempations of city men,

>and live in houses, and tend the herds no more. I would weep,

>but these seers also tell us that many of our people will not

>succumb, but will instead continue to live in ghers, and tend

>the herds, for at least another 600 winters, and I rejoice.


But can the Children of the Sky Blue Wolf deny the Tengri, Skyfather

to all Mongols? When one lives in the Gobi, one cannot ignore the sky.


>[BTW, Mongol fans : if you _ever_ have the chance to see

> "Close to Paradise", a film made in Mongolia, in Mongolian,


Actually it was called "Close to Eden" in English. The Mongolian title

is "Urga" which does not translate into the English title, but is the

name given to the lasso used by the Mongols to capture stray horses

or wives. Yes, this is a delightful film, and I have heard recently

that it is now available on video tape. There is a very good scene

depicting the traditional method of slaughtering a sheep for the meal

that is made for an honoured guest (in this case, a Russian truck driver

who nearly drives his truck into a river and is rescued by the mani




Corun (Celtic Mongol at large)


   Corun MacAnndra   | Wait a minute! Those were the droids I was looking for!

Dark Horde by birth |                      Overheard in a bar in Mos

   Moritu by choice  |                      Isley Space Port, Tatooine



From: doconnor at sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Morgans/koumiss

Date: 17 Mar 94 10:05:44


x_wolf at vicuna.emcmt.EDU writes:

] Dennis wrote

] |Attila was a Hun, not a Mongol.


] BZZZZZT!  If you look carefully at the appropriate maps, lineages, and

] tribes, you will see that the Huns, Tartars, and all of their playmates

] originated in Mongolia.


If you delve into Mongolian history, you get the true story :

the area that is now modern-day Mongolia was NOT a country in the

time of Attila or in fact until Temujin made it one. Before Temujin,

there were many tribes in the are, all semi-nomadic, none controlling

any particular geographic area for more than short time. One of

these tribes were the Mongols.


Even the Mongol records of the time maintain the distinction :

Temujin (who became Ghengis Kahn) was a Mongol, but the people

he forged into a nation were not called Mongols : they are

referred to as "the people who dwell in felt tents". Mongol

at that time was still a term only used to refer to the tribe

that Temujin was from.


As to the "Tartars" : this name is a European invention, applied

to the armies of Temujin when they threatened Europe. It's roots are

(I believe) "Tartarus" : a reference to hell, which the armies of

the Kahn were said to be from. "Tartars" were not an actual

gorup of people : just a European fiction. Unfortuneately,

it seems to have persisted into this century.


] "Hun", etc.- is/was a more concise description, i.e. New Yorker

] vs. American.


No, that's not correct. In the time of Attila, and even in the

time of Temujin, a Hun was no more a Mongol than an Lakota

was an Iriquois. They were different tribes, with no unifying

government above them. The fact that the region they sprang

from is currently under a single government is not relevant.


In fact, if I remeber correctly, the reason the Huns invaded

Europe was because they were displaced from the Steppes by

the group of semi-nomadic tribes that included the Mongols ( who

were being dispalced from more eastern areas by the Chinese. )

This means that far from being a Mongol, Attila would have

been an enemy of the Mongols who stole his homeland. Now

my Hun history isn't as good as my Mongol, so corrections

are welcomed.


] You, milord are half-right, and I say this with all the

] confidence of a History Major working (slowly) towards a P.H.D.


I think you've strayed from your specialty to far. The steppes

of Asia ahve a very turbulant and fascinating history. Modern

data can lead to bad assumptions. For example, many people

think that since modern Mongol horses are small ponies, so

were the horses of Temujin's armies. This is not true : the size

of modern Mongol ponies is a result of post-Mongol-Empire

Chinese actions. The Chinese destroyed all the large Mongol

horses to reduce the threat the Mongols represented to China.


Dennis O'Connor                          doconnor at sedona.intel.com



From: doconnor at sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Mongols

Date: 25 May 94 13:15:49


jonesb at nevada.EDU (BRIAN JONES) writes:

] I am looking for good texts on Mongols. I am specifically interested in

] pictures of armor and clothing.  I am also interested in the basic words

] of the language.  I have two books and the Man-at-Arms edition any

] information will help.  Thank you.



Good Mongol museum cataloges :


        One of the best museum catalouges is "Die Mongolen".

        Many detailed plates of Mongol artifacts, including

       clothing and jewelry. However it's in German.


        The LA County Natural History Museum recently had

        an exhibition on Mongols : the catalouge from that

        exhibit has some good Mongol artifacts in it, and

        a some unique data on the precursers of the Mongols.

        It's about $30 from the museum gift shop.


Pete Kucik <PK1 at gml.lib.uwm.edu> once recommended


        Hansen, Henny Harald, MONGOL COSTUMES; RESEARCHES ON THE



        HASLUND-CHRISTENSEN, 1936-37 and 1938-39 (Kobenhavn:

       Gyldendalski Boghandel, Nordisk Forlag, l950)






       HASLUND-CHRISTENSEN, 1936-37 AND 1938-39 (Kobenhaven:

       Gyldendalske Boghandel Nordisk Forlag, l952)


Additional stuff:


        "The Mongols", from the Osprey Mean-at-Arms series,

       by S.R. Turnbull. About $10 at military-history/

       minatures shops. ISBN 0 85045 372 0. Lots of good pictures,

       both modern ones and period illustrations, and good info

       on the when, where, why, and how of the Mongol armies.


       "The Devil's Horsemen : the Mongol Invasion of Europe",

       by James Chambers, ISBN 0-689-10942-3. Focuses on the

       interaction between the Mongols and their Christian

       and Moslem neighbors to the west.


        "The Devil's Horsemen" was a major source used to make

        "Storm from the East", a four-hour documentary that was on

        The Learning Channel. You can buy the tapes from The Learning

        Channel, somehow : call 1-800-555-1212 and see if TLC has

        a video sales 800 number.


        The movie "Close to Eden", made in Mongolia, in Mongolian,

        available with English subtitles, also touches on

        Mongol traditional dress, as well as teaching lots

        about modern and to a lesser extent period Mongolian

        culture. It's also a very entertaining movie. I'm

        looking for it on laserdisk.


        All SCA Mongols should have a translation of "The

        Secret History of the Mongols".


        "Chinese Wispers" is an interesting look at some of

        the Mongol's most famous actions. I like it, anyway.


        Tower Records often has Mongolian music CDs in their

        "International" section. The musicians often dress

      in traditional costumes for the cover photos.


There is also a group called "The Mongolian Society". Some

book stores can tell you how to contact them. They have all

sorts of things, including learn-to-speak-Mongolian tapes.

But don't mention the SCA to them.


Dennis O'Connor                          doconnor at sedona.intel.com



From: locksley at indirect.com (Joe Bethancourt)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Mongols

Date: 26 May 1994 07:45:06 GMT


One can log onto rec.culture.mongolia (I may have the exact name wrong here)

or contact the Chronicler of the Kingdom of Atenveldt, who has written

quite a nice little set of stuff on Mongol garb.


locksley at indirect.com           PO Box 35190        Locksley Plot Systems

White Tree Productions      Phoenix, AZ 85069 USA         CyberMongol Ltd



From: HNHN15A at prodigy.com (Jana Russ)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Mongolian Costume

Date: 7 Nov 1995 05:48:01 GMT


Another wonderful source for info on things Mongolian is:

                            the Mongolia Society

                            321-322 Goodbody Hall

                            Indiana University

                            Bloomington, IN 47405


From time to time they have Mongolian imports (including costumes--if you

are prepared to pay several hundred $).  They also have an excellent

selection of books and back issues of their own scholarly journals on a

regular basis.  One of the books I have purchased from Mongolia through

the Society is called _National Costumes of the Mongolian Peoples

Republic_, a collection of drawings of all the various Mongol tribes'

traditional del styles.


Membership in the Mongolia Society is $50.00/year and well worth it as

far as I am concerned.



Dark Horde Moritu (among other things)



From: foxd at silver.ucs.indiana.edu (daniel fox)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Mongol Horsebreeds

Date: 8 Apr 1996 01:48:38 GMT

Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington


I can't give you the number of hands the creatures ran, but the breed of

the Mongolian horse (a.k.a.) pony--is just that the Mongolian pony.


Check out a book called _In Search of Genghis Khan_ by Tim Severin (sp?).

This is the guy who recreated the Brendan voyage.  He went to Mongolia

to try to get a Mongolia to Vienna expedition together.  It failed but his

his trip gives a lot of details about Mongol ponies.


Audelindis de Rheims



From: dmoc at primenet.com (Dennis O'Connor)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Mongol Horsebreeds

Date: 10 Apr 1996 01:30:01 -0700


foxd at silver.ucs.indiana.edu (daniel fox) wrote:

] I can't give you the number of hands the creatures ran, but the breed of

] the Mongolian horse (a.k.a.) pony--is just that the Mongolian pony.


] Check out a book called _In Search of Genghis Khan_ by Tim Severin (sp?).

] This is the guy who recreated the Brendan voyage.  He went to Mongolia

] to try to get a Mongolia to Vienna expedition together.  It failed but his

] his trip gives a lot of details about Mongol ponies.


I'm not sure when Mongols started using ponies.  If memory serves,

Mongols originally rode full-size horses, but at some point in

history the Chinese decided that the Mongols were too dangerous on

full size horses, and slaughtered all the of them, leaving only

short horses, a.k.a. ponies.  I believe this occurred well after

the Great Khans ( Chinghis through Kublai ) but would not bet the

rent on it.


My point, of course, is that in the SCA time period, Mongols

did not usually ride ponies, but rather rode magnificent horses.


Dennis O'Connor                 Not Speaking for Anyone Else.

dmoc at primenet.com              Fear is the Enemy : TIP#518



From: Magorn <mgallehe at dcez.dcez.com>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Mongol Horsebreeds

Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 16:39:23 -0400

Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info at cais.com 703-448-4470


not entirely correct I'm afraid...Ponies are smaller, and tend to be more

surefooted and have greater endurances than regular horse breeds, and as

for strength, the single strongest horse breed in the world is generally

considered to be the Shetland Mine pony....Ponies are a more primitive

form of horse...and cannot run as fast as the well bred long-legged

variety, but should not in general be considered inferior horses.  the

Mongols of the Steppes rode very fast horses, but the Mongols of the

mountains did in fact use ponies...



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: Heather McCann <heather.mccann at utoronto.ca>

Subject: Re: Mongol Horsebreeds

Organization: UTCC Campus Access

Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 20:29:36 GMT


Chris Hartley <Chartley at bendnet.com> wrote:

>Ian Goss writes:

>>The Mongols did not ride ponies, they rode horses. When they were at

>>war they used their horses as pack animals as well. These horses are

>>impressive critters. They can cart around alot of weight. Ponies are

>>the midgets of the horse world (i.e. not as strong, durable).

>To which Qada'an Nachin scrambles for her books.

>I remember reading that the pony is more prevalent in Mongolia in

>later periods because someone (the Chinese government I think) ordered

>the larger horses to be slaughtered after the end of the Mongol

>invasion with the intent of preventing another from happening... Does

>this sound familiar to anyone?




After recently finishing an undergrad essay on Mongolian Calvary tactics

and as an avid horsewoman, I throughly agree with Qada'an.


1.Ponies are far sturdier in their composition than

horses. Firstly, from a physiological perspective, they

carry less weight to be supported on 4 fragile legs, while

their legs themselves are known to be bulkier.  One only

has to look at the Welsh, Connemara or Cob ponies of the

British Isles who served the Celts well to realize this.  

Secondly, ponies unlike horses, will eat almost anything and

may survive on any form of feed in comparison to horses which

have faster metabolisms, lose weight quickly and require a

bulkier form of feed.


2.Thus, the animals which thrived on the sparse scrubland of

the Mongolian steppes were ponies and not horses.  This

provided an advantage in battle since the Mongols didn't have

to carry feed for their animals in their army trains and were

thus more mobile.  In comparison, the European armies were

forced to have approx. 200 or so peasants at the back of any

army carry the hay of their country for the calvary, as the

large war horses (pre-coursers to the modern Percheron or

Clysdale) required heavy bulk feed and would often fall ill or

refuse to eat if they were offered hay etc. to which they were



3.The use of ponies and not horses allowed the Mongols the

advantage of speed and manouverability in battle.  Like a large

car, the European war horse took a lot of time to get up to

full speed, a long time to slow down and an even longer time

and radius to turn.  Steppe ponies however, on account of their

small size were faster in close combat and could turn on a



Thus, I may assure Ian Goss that it was indeed ponies and not horses that the Mongols rode, a factor which turned many a battle in the 13th C.



From: ccarson530 at aol.com (CCarson530)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Mongol Horsebreeds

Date: 3 May 1996 09:23:47 -0400


The horses being spoken of were indeed ponies, less than 14 hands,

however, due to the fact that they had short backs and their bone and

ligaments are and were stronger and less prone to injury they were and are

ideally suited for their work.  Ponies as a rule are most hardy and

healthy. They take a lot of punishment.  It should be remembered also

that those Mongols were not the size of the average man today.  Nor were

most Native Americans, large in stature.   The desert breeds of horse have

a genetically inclined system that replenishes the oxygen in their muscles

and removes the lactic acid that develops much faster than larger warm or

cold blood horses.  Hence they have far greater endurance.  The modern

Arabian, Akal Teki, Turkish, Afgan pony, Asian Indian breeds, Barb horses

and other sub-breeds were developed from that early stock without doubt.

Another problem develops when those who aren't knowledgeable with horse

"lingo", try to understand horse descriptions.  A horse is a horse, and a

mare can be loosely spoken of as a horse, however she really isn't, but a

horse is always horse.   It gets worse.



From: b.scott at bscott.async.csuohio.edu (Brian M. Scott)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Mongol feminine naming sources?

Date: 27 May 1996 22:02:40 GMT

Organization: Cleveland State University


Mairi <sionnach at io.com> says:

>I am looking for someone with a repository of Mongolian feminine

>naming sources, or perhaps a Horde member with a Mongolian dictionary who

>would be willing to translate some name ideas for me.


I recommend getting in touch with Mistress Marta as tu Mika-Mysliwy,

mka Linda Miku, 2527 E. Third Street, Tucson, AZ  85716.  Some years

back she compiled a small collection of Mongolian names, including

some two-score feminine given names, which was published in the

proceedings of one of the Known World Heraldic Symposia.  She is

quite likely to have information on other aspects of Mongol culture

as well.


Talan Gwynek



From: ej613 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Maureen S. O'Brien)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Mongol feminine naming sources?

Date: 3 Jun 1996 00:03:11 GMT

Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)


The _Babur nama_ is a haphazard sort of diary/autobiography written by

Babur, the first of the Great Moghuls.  He includes little portraits

of the important men and women in his life, Mongol, Turkish and Indian.

My dad's (old) popular retelling of his story notes a translation from

1921 (_The Babur-nama in English_, Annette S. Beveridge); there are

probably others now.


It also notes the memoirs of the Princess Gulbadan (_The History of

Humayun:Humayun-nama_, Annette S. Beveridge). Probably any books you

would find on this period would mention more sources useful to you.


Oh, and the old book my dad has is _Babur the Tiger_, Harold Lamb,

Bantam, 1961.


Maureen S. O'Brien              We are like the roses ---

ad451 at dayton.wright.edu         We are forced to grow.



From: IVANOR at delphi.com

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Mongol feminine naming sources?

Date: 3 Jun 1996 23:36:18 GMT


Quoting ej613 from a message in rec.org.sca

   >The _Babur nama_ is a haphazard sort of diary/autobiography written by

   >Babur, the first of the Great Moghuls.  He includes little portraits

   >of the important men and women in his life, Mongol, Turkish and Indian.

   >My dad's (old) popular retelling of his story notes a translation from

   >1921 (_The Babur-nama in English_, Annette S. Beveridge); there are

   >probably others now.

   >It also notes the memoirs of the Princess Gulbadan (_The History of

   >Humayun:Humayun-nama_, Annette S. Beveridge). Probably any books you

   >would find on this period would mention more sources useful to you.

   >Oh, and the old book my dad has is _Babur the Tiger_, Harold Lamb,

   >Bantam, 1961.


Excellent book. I read it with much enjoyment when it first came out. (I was

working in a library at the time and got to see the goodies early!)


Carolyn Boselli   ivanor at delphi.com   Host of CF35..SCAdians on Delphi

ivanor at localnet.com                                                  



From: "Per Inge Oestmoen" <pioe at powertech.no>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: The Mongols & Chingis Khan

Date: 19 Nov 1996 20:51:52 GMT


Hello, all of you interested in the history of Old Mongolia and the

Chingis-Khanite Mongols.


I have recently opened a website, exclusively devoted to the Mongols. You

will find documents, links and information pertaining to all aspects of the

Mongols during the era of Chingis Khan. A sizeable bibliography is also to

be found there. The history of the Chingis-Khanite Mongols has many

facettes, and my emphasis is on the ideological, philosophical and

spiritual foundations of the Mongol Empire.


It was on the spiritual plane the Mongols won their triumphs. Victories not

first and foremost over their military opponents, but over the limitations

imposed upon us when living in a physical body. The Mongols managed to

break out of the normal adaptive limits of Man. They accomplished, in an

extraordinary degree, the development of the full human potential,

physically, psychologically, intellectually, (!) emotionally and

spiritually. The results have no parallel in the whole history of the



George Vernadsky put it this way:


"What were the causes of the overwhelming success of the Mongol drive? How

did it happen that a nation of more than a million people conquered a

multitude of other nations with a total population of around one hundred

million?" "The sudden outburst of aggressive energy among the Mongols in

the early 13th century still remains a psychological riddle. To use an

analogy with the physical sciences, a sort of psychic explosion took

place." "What is not so easy to explain is the intensity of feeling and

seriousness of purpose which characterize(d) both Chingis-Khan and his

close advisers."


Do you want to acquaint yourself with this exceptional people and their

ways? Then visit this site:




Per Inge Oestmoen, Norway

pioe at powertech.no



From: Bill Toscano <toscano at q.continuum.net>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Mongols in National Geographic

Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 07:03:01 -0500


Just a quick note: The newest National Georgraphic has a good article on

Genghis Khan and a great two-sided map about the Mongols that shows a

lot of period borders, etc.


Liam St. Liam

Simple man, simple canton

(And a teacher of World History who is glad he hasn't gotten to the

Mongols yet)



From: HNHN15A at prodigy.com (Jana Russ)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Ger (Yurt) Question.

Date: 1 Dec 1996 16:48:21 GMT


Hello Corun,


>>In addtion, it seems that the inside walls were also covered with

>>felt, as to the roof also having a second layer I have not seen it

>>done, but it could have been done.

>I haven't seen inside walls covered with felt, but can't say this

>wasn't done, only that I think it unlikely. I have seen cloth wall

>coverings, but these were on modern gers, again the commercially

>made ones. The coverings are quite attractive.


What Kyle may be refering to are the layered "applique & cutwork" felt

rugs made by some Mongol tribes.  These are thinner felt panels (same

weight of felt as is used for boot liners and indoor slippers) dyed

variuos colors and stitched together in layers, then cutout shapes reveal

the layers/colors below and the whole piece is enhanced by embroidery.  

These rugs were used on floors, but also were hung on walls, over doors,

and used as bedcovers.  Hung on walls they would definitely  be an added

protection against winter winds (but in summer simple reed screens are

hung around the walls just to keep out dust and bugs...).  I,ve seen

these rugs in pictures and in person (at the Smithsonian) and even made a

couple. They are a good use of extra felt to small or too thin to use

for Yurt covers and the layering gives them both strength and warmth as

well as a way to mix colors.




Chai'usun of the Dark Horde Moritu

Gwyntarian, Middle

(Jana Russ janaruss at prodigy.com)



From: nayat at panix.com (nayat)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Tatar Yoke/Medieval Russia/Novgorod

Date: 24 Mar 1997 15:43:37 -0500


Corun MacAnndra <corun at access5.digex.net> wrote:

>Hmmm, I don't really know much about a Mongol merchant class. I'm sure the

>Mongols traded back and forth, but whether there was a specific class that

>ran caravans or lived in places far removed from their tribes or the places

>the Mongols subjugated is a question I can't answer. I would think, however,

>that if Novogrod had not been subjugated by the Mongols, it would have become

>a haven for those Russians escaping the Mongols, and therefor I would guess

>that Mongols in general would have been very unwelcome to the point that any

>might have been jailed or even killed out of hand. The Rus have never liked

>conquerors, and the Mongols were pretty ruthless.



To say that the Rus didn't like being conquored by the Mongols is an

understatement. They went so far as to deny it in their chronicles, while

still preserving their history.  I would point anyone interested in the

topic to Charles J. Halperin's book _Russia and the Golden Horde: The

Mongol Impact on Medieval Russian History_ published by Indiana Press.


As to Mongol Merchants I would point out that the reason Chinggis khan

turned west was to punish the Shah of Khurasan for killing Mongol

Merchants. Of course he thought they were spys, but the Great Khan taught



Umbar in Hashiral Daudachi, Beis



From: stddly at SHSU.edu

Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 00:07:06 -0500

To: ansteorra at eden.com

Subject: The Map of the Ordu


Thought ya'll would like to see this link

It is a clickable map of a mongol yurt "village"

and has lots of information including a mongolian








Subject: Shamanic Mumblings - The Ovoo

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 98 07:39:48 MST

From: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu>

To: BrnWndMstr at aol.com, seareach at juno.com, chhintze at bmd.clis.com, cordanjr at jmu.edu, corun at access.digex.net, stefan at texas.net, "Mark.S Harris (rsve60)" <rsve60 at email.sps.mot.com>


For those of you with Mongols in your territories GafferBear, shaman

of the Great Dark Horde wrote and Okayed to pass on:


GafferBear wrote:


<<<Anyone out there with info about Obo's?

I'm kinda interested in building an Obo

(shrine) on site near camp (basically it's

a pile of rocks with a pole and flag, maybe

some streamers)>>>


Magnus, you're welcome (so is anyone else)

to post this to any archive you wish.


Hrothgar; in answer to your question:



"Ovoos" (singular, "ovoo"), pronounced

OE-voos, serves two purposes in Mongolian



On the religious side, they represent places

where the local nature spirits and Ongon

(specific spirits) reside, and are places of

memorial, as well.  The Ovoo for Geneghis

Khan, in Ulaan Baator, for instance, is

comprised of rocks; bricks; bottles (which

arrive there unopened, are blessed, drunk

in honor, and placed on); sculptures;

written blessings on paper, fabric, and

money; chachka ([sp?] - knicknacks; little

paper dolls; little fabric dolls; and various

other ingredients.  These are all placed in

reverence. The "Blessing Tree" is something

which **can** be done atop (actually,

amongst, since the piece of wood must be

placed upright in the ground to start) an

ovoo, and would end up with more of the

'perishable' offerings (like money, paper,

fabric). When going to see the local

shaman, many people will ask particular

blessings for a particular need.  They tie

something (a strip of cloth, a piece of

yarn, money, little dolls of various

manufacture, etc.) on the tree as an

offering to the Ongon and other spirits,

and then head on.  The belief is that these

spirits will take on the solution for the

problem, and will be ready to function on

it by the time they enter the shamanic ritual.


The second cultural use for ovoos is for

orientation in the wilderness.  If you

have a hilly country, mostly sandless

desert, you can map road by going ridge

to ridge fairly easily.  Even if you skirt

the ridge, you're like to see the ridges

on all sides.  So on the far side of the

ridge, you should see th next ovoo.


Where roads diverge, you can count

ovoos (pass 3 going west, turn south at

the next, follow that for 4 ovoos, and

when you come into the next valley, we'll

be there to hold the dog.) and give

directions. New ovoos are springing up

all the time, but if you travel a route

frequently (as nomads are want to do),

you'll essentially learn of any new ones

being generated.


And I do mean generated.  People creating

ovoos in the Gobi (and the Takla-Makan,

for a large part) gather rocks, twigs, and

just about anything else they can get their

hands on along the road to add to these sites.

The growth of a collection mirrors the

centrism of the associated spirits around

that spot.


There are formulae for Blessings in

Mongolian shamanism, as well as others

(the Ngasan shamans sing at objects to

bless them, carryings notes well over a

minute and a half!), some of which have

been mentioned elsewhere, and which I

will present again at a future time.


As for the construction, one should

hopefully start with a barkess, twisted,

natural piece of wood.  It should have

been found, unattached to Mother Earth,

without its bark, preferably nearby the

place where the ovoo is to be constructed.


The belief behind using a really twisty

piece of wood, such as the root structure

of a fairly mature sapling, is that any

tree or piece of wood so twisted *has*

to have been there, and been grown, for

a *reason*, therefore spirits *must* be

behind it.  These pieces are called Kam's

Trees. Occasionally, a live tree is planted.

Nevertheless, the rocks pile up.


In parting, I'll say:  Not all Blessing Trees

need ovoos, nor do all ovoos have Blessing

Trees. There are, however, often things

left in or on the ovoo and its piece of

wood. There is almost always some

piece of fabric tied at the top, with

some history of the ovoo and what it



This is the mark of a shamanistic society,

which marks out the land based on the

collective power of the people who live

there, and who always have.  Ancestors

mean a lot.  Remember yours, those who

you still have, and those who have gone,

the next time you see an ovoo.  Look at

the spirits of natural things.  Give their

names, and offer them your blessings.

Almost always, you'll find that you get

theirs in return.




Yostoii! Ride Well!





Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 15:14:13 -0500 (EST)

From: Jenne Heise <jenne at tulgey.browser.net>

To: Shire of Eisental <eisental at tulgey.browser.net>,

       SCA Arts list <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>

Subject: Silk Road site (review from LIIWEEK)


Those who are interested in the history of East asia (especially mongols)

may be interested in this site:


   Silk Road Foundation - http://www.silk-road.com/

       The Silk Road Foundation Web site offers a fascinating

       introduction to the history and culture of the people and

       places along the ancient Silk Road which includes Inner and

       Central Asia. In addition to information about the lectures,

       courses, and community events that the Foundation

       sponsors, this site includes a variety of articles,

       bibliographies, and images related to Silk Road topics.

       Also included are sections devoted to Xinjiang and

       Dunhuang studies, a historical chronology (still under

       construction) with links to additional information (e.g.

       history of silk), and a list of other interesting Silk Road



Jadwiga Zajaczkowa (Shire of Eisental; HERMS Cyclonus), mka Jennifer Heise

jenne at tulgey.browser.net



Subject: Quilting

Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 16:51:16 -0500

From: nix at iolinc.net (Malone, N.)

Organization: Management Resources

To: Merry Rose <atlantia at atlantia.sca.org>,

     Betty & David Eyer <Betty_and_David at compuserve.com>


Poster: nix at iolinc.net (Malone, N.)


Quilted armor sources are available in both of the Historic Warriors on

Mongols and China, as well as Moguls and Persians. I dont remember the

publisher but its that little paperback series on fighters with glossy




Subject: New Mongolian Armor Book is out.

Date: Mon, 08 Feb 99 10:56:31 MST

From: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu>

To: cordanjr at jmu.edu


Our friend John Cordani / Pao Hu Tso of the House Sain Noyan informed

me that the publication on Mongolian Armour is now available.:



The publication in the Mongolian Society is in print and

available. It was in galley print when I was at Indiana

University in the fall.


The Mongolian paper is available, probably at $8.00 plus

handling from


The Mongolian Society, Inc.

322 Goodbody Hall

Indiana University

Bloomington, IN 47405-2401


phone 812 855 4078

fac   812 855 7500

email monsoc at indiana.edu


Title: MONGOLIAN SURVEY Issue Five, 1998.


Talked to the lady this morning and ordered mine. $8 is correct plus

your choice of shipping and handling. A book on felt tents by Andrews

is expected in a month or two. Didn't know for sure if it was the

same expensive one that he produced in Europe a year or so back.

That one is $175 and can be found off a page off the SCA Arts page

on Medieval Pavillion Resources. Hopefully this one will be a damn

sight cheaper.


They also have a range of other Mongolian publications by the Society



Also she has a Mongolian made yurt model in a box at $75 (one only).

And ten (only) mongolian hats - Description Blue with a red knot on

top, yellow trim and a flower design in the fabric. $25 & shipping.


They are VERY aware of who Master Todric is and his yurts. <VBEG>

If you want a medieval yurt contact todric at raex.com, customs done.

I am not affiliated with the business.


Master Magnus Malleus, Atlantia, GDHorde



Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:57:27 -0500

From: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu>

Organization: Windmaster's Hill, Atlantia, and the GDH

To: - Ger Makers <ger-makers at PEAK.ORG>

Subject: Mongol Armour Book


You might be interested in the following:


Arms and Armour of the Great Steppe in the Times of the Mongol

Expansion (12-14th C) by Withold Swietoslwski.


United by Genghis Khan in the 12th Century, Central Asian Nomadic Armies became a force of terror afflicting both the great Chinese Empire to the East and the European Kingdoms to the West. The impression that these conquering armies were only lightly armed haas been an accident of historical research. As this ground-breaking book (published in English, in Poland) shows, the nomads possessed a technological range of weapons and armour, which at least matched the warriors with whom they came in contact. Because most of the published studies of  this material have been in Russian, and other languages of the former USSR, western scholars have lacked access to this information...until now.... This concise synthesis covers not only human and horse armor, but also explores literary evidence for explosives and chemical weapons. With full bibliographic notes, and a number of line drawings, this is a welcome publication on a previously unexplored topic. 144pp., 33 b/w plates. (Studies on the History of the Ancient and  Medieval Arts of Warfare (SHAMAW) III. Oficyna Naukowa 1999) ISBN 838587402X Pb $19.95


Arms and Armour in the Medieval Teutonic Orders State in Prussia

by Andrzej Nowakowski. 161pp., 35 b/w plates., pb., SHAMAW II, 1994

ISBN 8385874011 $19/95


Cataphracti and Clibanarii: Studies on the Heavy Armoured Cavalry

of the Ancient World by Mariusz Mielczarek. 145 p., 34 b/w plates,

SHAMAW I, 1993, Pb $19.95. ISBN 8385874003


Available from David Brown Book Co.

<david.brown.bk.co at snet.net>


Magnus, GDH

**DO NOT repost to the Rialto or any other NEWSGROUP.**



Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 13:59:03 -0500

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: SC - OT- Center for Study of Eurasian Nomads


If anyone is interested in Steppes nomads in general, pray let me direct you

to the Center for the Study of Eurasian Nomads:






Subject: Re: ANST - Some assistance please ....

Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 22:51:15 MST

From: "Ulf Gunnarsson" <ulfie at mmcable.com>

To: <ansteorra at ansteorra.org>

CC: <foailtighearna at hotmail.com>


Foailtighearna wrote:

> I am currently doing research on Mongols as a whole.  I was hoping that some

> kind soul might have some better information about them than I could find.

> (mainly on period names {I could only find bits and pieces} and possible

> dress {If any aside from Caftan})


What a coincidence.  Someone just showed me a book this weekend on Mongols.

"The Secret History of the Mongols", trans. by Francis Woodman Cleaves.  The

original text was written in Mongolian around 1240 AD, but does not survive.

It was translated phonetically into Chinese in the following century, and

from this the English translation made. Hardcover copy is just over $20.


A site I just hit on that talks more about Mongol names is



and that is linked to by Modar's SCA site at


(he's the Baron of Forgotten Sea, and a herald too...)


Ulf Gunnarsson



Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 18:01:30 -0700 (PDT)

From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: Filo/phyllo-- was [Re: SC - duck and bread]


- --- Elaine Koogler <ekoogler at chesapeake.net> wrote:

> I'm not sure where you can find it.  Paul sent me a

> copy of the part he wrote as

> a courtesy when I thought I wouldn't be able to get

> "Soup".  The monograph was

> edited by Reuven Amitai-Preiss and David O. Morgan,

> and published in 1999 by

> Brill (Leiden, Boston, Koln).  You might try

> checking your local library to see

> if they can get it on Inter-Library loan.  I suspect

> that the Library of Congress should have a copy of it.


Of course they do, but they don't do ILL IIRC.


Amitai-Preiss, Reuven, 1955-

The Mongol empire and its legacy / edited by Reuven

Amitai-Preiss and David O. Morgan.  Leiden ; Boston : Brill, 1999.

xiv, 361 p.  (Islamic history and civilization. Studies and texts ; [24])

ISBN 9004110488


Amazon.com lists the book at $146.50.





From: Jennifer Heise <jahb at lehigh.edu>

Date: Fri Jun 6, 2003  1:44:09 PM US/Central

To: SCALibrarians at topica.com

Subject: Re: [SCALibrarians] Mongols was: An Introduction


Hey, here's some Mongol links that were sent to the list way back



Eden Blacksmith wrote:

> Here is some URL’s on Mongols

> http://www.coldsiberia.org/webdoc3.htm

> http://www.travelchinaguide.com/intro/history/yuan.htm

> http://www.bartleby.com/65/go/GoldenHE.html

> http://members.aol.com/yikhmongol/history.htm

> http://members.ozemail.com.au/~mongolei/ENGLISH/engindex.html

> http://www.shamanicdimensions.com/ethnosha/mongol.html

> http://www.kiku.com/electric_samurai/virtual_mongol/index.html

> http://www.greatdarkhorde.org/

> http://gozips.uakron.edu/~jana/moritu/moritu.html

> http://www.rootgrafix.com/haggis/gdh/


> Eden

> “A Saxon...but, I have been seen in the company of Mongols....down

> wind of course”

> http://w3.one.net/~mpeters/king_hill_script.html

>> From: Alfonsina Svoboda <chatelaine2 at yahoo.com>

>> Reply-To: SCALibrarians at topica.com

>> To: SCALibrarians at topica.com

>> Subject: Re: [SCALibrarians] An Introduction

>> Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 05:29:08 -0700 (PDT)


>> Greetings all,

>>  My name is Catriona McKinnon, and while I am not a

>> librarian, I have worked in a library for over a

>> decade.  My interests are dance, music, researching

>> different cultures, etc. A question for the list: Where

>> is the best place on the web, if any, to find

>> information on mongols?


>> Catriona Mckinnon



From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>

Date: December 21, 2004 2:31:48 PM CST

To: Known World Librarians <SCA-Librarians at lists.gallowglass.org>

Cc: Subject: [Sca-librarians] CHOICE: Mongols in World History


Recommended by Choice Magazine:


The Mongols in world history.   Internet Resource      



"Elaborate and lavishly illustrated... It intends to create online

curriculum materials on Asia to serve faculty and students in world

history, culture, geography, art, and literature... a teaching guide

with some 40 short essays... background information and curriculum

materials, including primary source documents. Topical sections..."


-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net



Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 07:14:48 -0400

From: "Phlip" <phlip at 99main.com>

Subject: Fw: [Sca-cooks] Re: Blown Sugar is Chinese Apparently

To: "SCA-Cooks" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>


Passed Stefan's question along to Paul Buell.


>> I always thought the Mongols must have been rather desperate to use

>> milk as their sugar source for their alcohol. But if cane sugar was

>> as common as mentioned above, I'd think the Mongols would have used

>> sugar, not milk.


>> Stefan


> Mongols used milk because of prestige and taste. They certainly had  

> wild berries and things...and certainly had distilled booze...

> Paul


Saint Phlip,




Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 12:45:28 -0400

From: "Phlip" <phlip at 99main.com>

Subject: Fw: [Sca-cooks] Re: Blown Sugar is Chinese Apparently

To: "SCA-Cooks" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>


>> The Mongols are from the northern and northwest deserts of China/Mongolia.

>> Sugar cane doesn't grow there.  Not much grows there except spotty grass and

>> gravel.  Milk was probably the easiest thing to ferment.  And remember, the

>> Mongols didn't start moving into those cane growing regions until late in

>> the 12th Century and by the time they got to India, the were Moslems.


>> Bear


> The Yinshan zhengyao certainly knows sugar, but no evidence they fermented

> it. I think the Mongols preferred starting with milk or fruit drinks. Note

> that they used freeze distillation too.

> Paul (Buell)


Saint Phlip,




To: SCA Newcomers list <scanewcomers at yahoogroups.com>

Subject: Mongolian naming practice in the SCA

Posted by: "LCopland at aol.com" LCopland at aol.com loricopland

Date: Mon Jun 21, 2010 1:43 pm ((PDT))


I aksed the Khan of our household and he sent me this answer- hope it helps:


Here are two important resources for anyone interested in doing a Mongol persona in the SCA.


First, there is a Yahoo group specifically for Mongol interests. I highly recommend it for all Mongol personae as it has some serious researchers, ethnic Mongolians, and many SCAdians who can and do share their experience. It is a good place for any questions about Mongols and having a Mongol persona in the SCA:




Second is specific to dealing with Mongolian names. The College of Heralds may not be the best place for checking Mongol names but for those who desire to work with them, this article attempts to reconcile submitting a name to the CoA and their rules, with period Mongolian naming practices:


Researching Mongol Names in the SCA



To answer the original question, no. The suffix –dei or –dai does not stand alone as a name so would not work as a surname, byname, family name, clan name, or whatever other semantic some herald calls requiring two names. Even if it did stand alone, there is the possibility of changing the meaning of the name. The aforementioned article mentions some ways in which a Mongol name can be submitted within CoH rules. You can subsequently use or ignore everything other than the given name. Even formally, just addressing someone by only given name is customary.


Gulugjab Tangghudai

Khan of the Silver Horde



From: tamara at suncrow.com

Subject: [Lochac] very good Ukranian website for Mongol stuff

Date: June 4, 2014 7:27:00 PM CDT

To: "Shambles (Lochac)" <lochac at sca.org.au>


Posted on another list: the website of some Ukrainian re-enactors who've put up lots of chewy info on period Mongolian costume, jewelry, textiles, etc.  For Drake, there's even some info on cooking (be interested to hear how useful that is). Most of it appears to be re-published journal articles.  You'll need to run it through Google Translate.




This one is "Clothing of the nobility of the Great Mongol Empire in 1207-1266":


Includes photos and diagrams of several extant garments I've not yet come across published in other (admittedly mostly-English-language) sources.


But have a trawl, there's heaps.


*bounce* *bounce* *bounce*




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