Mongols-msg - 9/27/15
Mongol culture, bibliography. Mongol horses.
NOTE: See also the files: Russia-msg, East-Eur-msg, Hungary-msg, yurts-msg, livestock-msg, kumiss-msg, dairy-prod-msg.
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NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
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Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: NAHUM HAZEV (6/14/93)
To: markh at terminator
Yurt (from Corun)
From:"Corun MacAnndra" 11-JUN-1993 09:02:45.92
To: IN%"FNKLSHTN at ACFcluster.NYU.EDU"
Subj: RE: Yurt
Greetings and peace,
Yes, I could send some cultural info on the yurt as well. Some points
of interest. When setting up the yurt, put the door facing southeast.
This was done so that light coming in the roof ring during would light
specific parts of the yurt at the proper time of the day. For example,
by the end of the day, the light would fall on the kitchen area where
dinner was prepared. There was a man's side and a woman's side to the
yurt. There was a cosmology to the yurt as well, linking it with the
universe. In the center of the yurt is the hearth. Opposite the door
on the far side of the yurt is the altar. Clockwise from the door and
around the hearth we have seating for the man's guests, the honoured
guest, the man, the woman, the woman's honoured guest, women's guests,
until coming back to just right of the door (facing into the yurt) we
have the place for the children and servants. This is also the kitchen
side of the yurt. On the women's side is also the bed. Also, the yurt
is owned by the woman, whose job is to maintain the home and hearth,
and to raise the children and make the felt etc. The men own the herds,
and hunt and protect. A Mongol adage is to never have more wives than
yurts. The idea being that each wife had her own and there was no
rivalry between wives.
The cosmology that I spoke of above goes like this; the hearth, the
hearth square, the yurt, the four corners of the earth, the earth,
the universe. Thus all was linked with the home, and the home being
mobile was always part of the universe.
I hope this helps. I'll send plans as soon as I can.
In service,
Corun
From: doconnor at sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Terms of Venery
Date: 2 Jul 93 04:10:48
Organization: Intel i960(tm) Architecture
deane at binah.cc.brandeis.edu (David Matthew Deane) writes:
] I suppose a group of mongols is a horde
If you're a barbarian European, maybe. "Horde" is a corruption
of the Mongol "ordu", which means "homeland" more than "bunch of".
The only Mongol group-name I can recall right now is "tumen":
a military unit of (when formed) 10,000 Mongols, I think.
--
Dennis O'Connor doconnor at sedona.intel.com
From: greg at bronze.lcs.mit.edu (Greg Rose)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Chinese - yes or no ??
Date: 29 Jun 1993 16:08:13 -0400
Organization: MIT LCS guest machine
Fiacha writes:
>I do not know of any Mongol games so I make no judgement in that area.
The two principal Mongol games of which I am aware are Nishapur and
Rug-by (but you need an Abbasid and a cavalry turma to play the latter).
Hossein/Greg
From: corun at access.digex.net (Corun MacAnndra)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Chinese - yes or no ??
Date: 29 Jun 1993 19:08:28 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
In article <20q7fd$2o0 at bronze.lcs.mit.edu> greg at bronze.lcs.mit.edu (Greg Rose) writes:
>Fiacha writes:
>
>>I do not know of any Mongol games so I make no judgement in that area.
>
>The two principal Mongol games of which I am aware are Nishapur and
>Rug-by (but you need an Abbasid and a cavalry turma to play the latter).
There is another called Aklagh Tarteesh, which translates loosely as "picking
up sheep at a gallop." No, really.
Corun
==============================================================================
Corun MacAnndra | God runs electromagnetics on Mon., Wed. and Fri. by
Dark Horde by birth | the wave theory and the Devil runs it by quantum
Moritu by choice | theory Tue., Thur. and Sat. -- Sir Wm. Bragg
From: adelekta at kentvm.kent.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Chinese - yes or no ??
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 93 13:07:03 EST
Organization: Kent State Univ.
corun at access.digex.net (Corun MacAnndra) writes:
>There is another called Aklagh Tarteesh, which translates loosely as "picking
>up sheep at a gallop." No, really.
This sounds remarkably similar to bozkashi, a central asian game whose name
translates as "goat catch." These livestock games sound like a pretty common
nomadic pastime... :)
-Zimra al-Ghaziyah
From: doconnor at sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Baptism (was Neo Paga
Date: 11 Aug 93 08:02:44
bettina.helms at channel1.com (Bettina Helms) writes:
] SH> CLB> However, from other posts, I see that a "baptism" implies that
] SH> CLB> it is a "Christian baptism". I am not planning a Christian baptism.
]
] SH>Ok. Then it's not a baptism in any usual sense, since the custom of either
] SH>dripping water, or dunking the person in it, is a Christian ceremony that
] SH>so far as I have ever heard doesn't have an exact analogy to any other
] SH>religion. Many religions have some sort of ceremony welcoming the new
] SH>person, but they aren't specifically baptisms.
]
] Such fragmentary records as we have of the Eleusinian Mysteries suggest
] that a whole-body dip in the sea was part of the initiation ritual...and
] it *has* been noted that "Christian" baptism started out as a
] fringe-Jewish thing (a special variant of the ritual cleansing of the
] mikveh?). Water-based purification ceremonies appear to be especially
] popular in hot climates, which stands to reason. :-)
Bathing in the Ganges river to purify oneself is a popular modern
Hindu (I think) custom.
Of course, Mongols were forbidden by the Yassa, the Law of Chingiss Kahn,
from polluting water sources, which prohibition included bathing in them.
--
Dennis O'Connor doconnor at sedona.intel.com
From: Judith L. Tabron
To: Mark Harris
Date: 12/28/93
Greetings to my lord Stefan,
Following is the bibliography in its current state -- I hope you find some use
for it, and let me know if it has been of use to anyone.
Raedwynn
Contemporaries of Marco Polo. Consisting of the Travel Records to the Eastern
Parts of the World of William of Rubruck [1253-1255]; the Journey of John of
Pian de Carpini [1245-1247]; the Journal of Friar Odoric [1318-1330] & the
Original Travels of Rabbi Benjamin of Tudela [1160-1173]. Manuel Komroff. New
York: Boni & Liveright, Inc., 1928.
Mission to Asia. C. Dawson. New York: n.p., 1966. Reprinted 1979.
The Book of Ser Marco Polo the Venetian concerning the kingdoms and marvels of
the East. H. Cordier. Trans. Sir Henry Yule and H. Cordier. London: n.p.,
1903.
The Mongol Mission. C. Dawson. London and New York: n.p., 1955.
The Monks of Kublai Khan, emperor of China. Trans. E. A. W. Budge. London:
n.p., 1928.
The Secret History of the Mongols. Trans. F. W. Cleaves. Cambridge, MA:
Harvard University Press, 1982.
Akner, Grigor of. "History of the Nation of the Archers (the Mongols) by
Grigor of Akanc" [sic.]. Trans. R. P. Blake and R. N. Frye. n.p.: HJAS, XII,
1949.
al-Din, Rashid. The successors of Genghis Khan. Trans. J. A. Boyle. London
and New York: n.p., 1971.
Battuta, Ibn. The travels of Ibn Battuta, A.D. 1325-1354. Trans. H. A. R.
Gibb. Cambridge: Hakluyt Society, 2nd ser., CX, CXVII, CXLI, 1958. Reprinted
1971.
Boyer, Martha. Mongol Jewellry: Researches on the Silver Jewellry collected by
the First and Second Danish Central Asian Expeditions under the leadership of
Henning Haslund-Christensen, 1936-37 and 1938-39. Kobenhavn: Gyldendalski
Boghandel, Nordisk Forlag, 1952.
Boyle, J. A. The Mongol World Empire. London: Variorum Reprints, Collected
Studies series, 1977.
Brooke, R. B. The Coming of the Friars. London: n.p., 1975.
Chambers, J. The Devil's Horsemen, 2nd ed. London: n.p., 1988.
Hansen, Henny Harald. Mongol Costumes: Researches on the Garments Collected by
the First and Second Danish Central Asian Expeditions under the leadership of
Henning Haslund-Christensen, 1936-37 and 1938-39. Kobenhavn: Gyldendalski
Boghandel, Nordisk Forlag, 1950. This is *the* source for descriptions and
even patterns of Mongol clothes, including hats, footwear, etc.
Haslund-Christensen, Henning. The Music of the Mongols: Eastern Mongolia. New
York: Da Capo Press, 1971. Has pictures of music instruments and sheet music.
Henthorn, W. Korea. The Mongol Invasions. Trans. G. Samuel. Leiden: n.p.,
1963.
Hessig, W. The Religions of Mongolia. Trans. G. Samuel. London: n.p., 1980.
Howorth, H. H. History of the Mongols from the 9th to the 19th Century.
London: n.p., 1876.
Juivaini, 'Ala-ad-Din 'Ata-Malik. The History of the World-Conquerer. Trans.
John Andrew Boyle, Ph.D. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1958.
Marshall, Robert. Storm from the East. Berkeley, Los Angeles: University of
California Press, 1993. This book accompanies the popular PBS series.
Morgan, David. O. The Mongols (The Peoples of Europe). Cambridge, MA & Oxford
U.K.: Blackwell, 1986.
Moule, A. C. Christians in China before the year 1550. Cambridge: n.p., 1930.
Moule, A. C. Christians in China before the year 1550. Oxford: n.p., 1986.
Moule, A. C. Quinsai, with other notes on Marco Polo. Cambridge: n.p., 1957.
Needham, J. Clerks and craftsmen in China and the West. Cambridge: n.p.,
1970.
Olschki, L. Guillaume Boucher, a French artist at the court of the Khans.
Baltimore: n.p., 1946.
Phillips, E. D. The Mongols. London: n.p., 1969.
Polo, Marco. Il milione (The Travels of Marco Polo). Trans. A. Ricci.
London: Broadway Travellers, 1931.
Polo, Marco. The Travels of Marco Polo. Trans. Ronald Latham. London:
Penguin Books, 1958.
Ratchnevsky, Paul. Genghis Khan: His Life and Legacy. Thomas Nivison Haining.
Trans. T. N. Haining. Oxford U.K. & Cambridge MA: Blackwell, 1991. Reprinted
1992.
Rubruck, William of. The Mission of Friar William of Rubruck: His Journey to
the court of the Great Khan Mongke 1253-1255. Trans. Peter Jackson. London:
The Hakluyt Society , 1990. This is GREAT fun to read, and *the* period source
for information on the Mongols.
Yule, Sir Henry. Cathay and the way thither. H. Cordier. London: Hakluyt
Society, 2nd ser. XXXIII, XXXVII, XXXVIII, XLI, 191316.
------------------------------------------------------------
This version: Dec. 27, 1993
Compiled by Etain macDhomnuill, Khanate Snow Leopard, of the household of the
Great Dark Horde.
With assistance from Raedwynn aet thaem Grenan Wuda, Dark Horde
and Giuliana del Fiore, Bergantal
------------------------------------------------------------
Please email additions or corrections to:
Internet: tabron at binah.cc.brandeis.edu
CompuServe: 75330,2000
From: dmvolmut at ukanaix.cc.UKans.EDU (David Volmut)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: mongoloid persona
Date: 13 Dec 1993 02:29:04 -0500
> I personally would like a
> bit more than just a few paragraphs of information. I think what bot h the
> requester and myself are looking for is what some of the more experienced and
> knowledgeble members of The Society consider to be reliable sources, rather
> than opinionated or sound bite versions.
>
> Your Servant,
>
> Grey.
>
I missed the initial question. If you are looking for books about Mongol
stuff here are a few good ones.
James Chambre _The Devil's Horsemen_
Peter Jackson _The Mission of Friar William of Rurbruck_ a good book for
those wanting detailed everyday life stuff.
DAvid Morgan _The Mongols_
Hope this helps,
Gilligan of Eire
From: corun at access3.digex.net (Corun MacAnndra)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Mongol stargazers
Date: 4 Mar 1994 17:03:09 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Dennis O'Connor <doconnor at sedona.intel.com> wrote:
>] >This talk of moon and earth and stars and sky seems the useless
>] >banter of softy, idle city folk. Better to spend the time tending
>] >the herds, or hunting, or others of the neccesary business of men.
>] >The gods have so made the heavens that men can know their way,
>] >and judge the coming of the seasons, by observing them. For this
>] >men should be grateful, and not in their arrogance presume to know
>] >how the gods provide this boon to them.
>] >
>] > Buri Dogshin, Mongol
>
>Those of our shamans who have true visions of the future tell us
>that in the years beyond our own, some of the People who Dwell
>in Felt Tents shall fall prey to the tempations of city men,
>and live in houses, and tend the herds no more. I would weep,
>but these seers also tell us that many of our people will not
>succumb, but will instead continue to live in ghers, and tend
>the herds, for at least another 600 winters, and I rejoice.
But can the Children of the Sky Blue Wolf deny the Tengri, Skyfather
to all Mongols? When one lives in the Gobi, one cannot ignore the sky.
>[BTW, Mongol fans : if you _ever_ have the chance to see
> "Close to Paradise", a film made in Mongolia, in Mongolian,
Actually it was called "Close to Eden" in English. The Mongolian title
is "Urga" which does not translate into the English title, but is the
name given to the lasso used by the Mongols to capture stray horses
or wives. Yes, this is a delightful film, and I have heard recently
that it is now available on video tape. There is a very good scene
depicting the traditional method of slaughtering a sheep for the meal
that is made for an honoured guest (in this case, a Russian truck driver
who nearly drives his truck into a river and is rescued by the mani
character).
Bayartai,
Corun (Celtic Mongol at large)
==============================================================================
Corun MacAnndra | Wait a minute! Those were the droids I was looking for!
Dark Horde by birth | Overheard in a bar in Mos
Moritu by choice | Isley Space Port, Tatooine
From: doconnor at sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Morgans/koumiss
Date: 17 Mar 94 10:05:44
x_wolf at vicuna.emcmt.EDU writes:
] Dennis wrote
] |Attila was a Hun, not a Mongol.
]
] BZZZZZT! If you look carefully at the appropriate maps, lineages, and
] tribes, you will see that the Huns, Tartars, and all of their playmates
] originated in Mongolia.
If you delve into Mongolian history, you get the true story :
the area that is now modern-day Mongolia was NOT a country in the
time of Attila or in fact until Temujin made it one. Before Temujin,
there were many tribes in the are, all semi-nomadic, none controlling
any particular geographic area for more than short time. One of
these tribes were the Mongols.
Even the Mongol records of the time maintain the distinction :
Temujin (who became Ghengis Kahn) was a Mongol, but the people
he forged into a nation were not called Mongols : they are
referred to as "the people who dwell in felt tents". Mongol
at that time was still a term only used to refer to the tribe
that Temujin was from.
As to the "Tartars" : this name is a European invention, applied
to the armies of Temujin when they threatened Europe. It's roots are
(I believe) "Tartarus" : a reference to hell, which the armies of
the Kahn were said to be from. "Tartars" were not an actual
gorup of people : just a European fiction. Unfortuneately,
it seems to have persisted into this century.
] "Hun", etc.- is/was a more concise description, i.e. New Yorker
] vs. American.
No, that's not correct. In the time of Attila, and even in the
time of Temujin, a Hun was no more a Mongol than an Lakota
was an Iriquois. They were different tribes, with no unifying
government above them. The fact that the region they sprang
from is currently under a single government is not relevant.
In fact, if I remeber correctly, the reason the Huns invaded
Europe was because they were displaced from the Steppes by
the group of semi-nomadic tribes that included the Mongols ( who
were being dispalced from more eastern areas by the Chinese. )
This means that far from being a Mongol, Attila would have
been an enemy of the Mongols who stole his homeland. Now
my Hun history isn't as good as my Mongol, so corrections
are welcomed.
] You, milord are half-right, and I say this with all the
] confidence of a History Major working (slowly) towards a P.H.D.
I think you've strayed from your specialty to far. The steppes
of Asia ahve a very turbulant and fascinating history. Modern
data can lead to bad assumptions. For example, many people
think that since modern Mongol horses are small ponies, so
were the horses of Temujin's armies. This is not true : the size
of modern Mongol ponies is a result of post-Mongol-Empire
Chinese actions. The Chinese destroyed all the large Mongol
horses to reduce the threat the Mongols represented to China.
--
Dennis O'Connor doconnor at sedona.intel.com
From: doconnor at sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Mongols
Date: 25 May 94 13:15:49
jonesb at nevada.EDU (BRIAN JONES) writes:
] I am looking for good texts on Mongols. I am specifically interested in
] pictures of armor and clothing. I am also interested in the basic words
] of the language. I have two books and the Man-at-Arms edition any
] information will help. Thank you.
Good Mongol museum cataloges :
One of the best museum catalouges is "Die Mongolen".
Many detailed plates of Mongol artifacts, including
clothing and jewelry. However it's in German.
The LA County Natural History Museum recently had
an exhibition on Mongols : the catalouge from that
exhibit has some good Mongol artifacts in it, and
a some unique data on the precursers of the Mongols.
It's about $30 from the museum gift shop.
Pete Kucik <PK1 at gml.lib.uwm.edu> once recommended
Hansen, Henny Harald, MONGOL COSTUMES; RESEARCHES ON THE
GARMENTS COLLECTED BY THE FIRST AND SECOND DANISH CENTRAL
ASIAN EXPEDITIONS UNDER THE LEADERSHIP OF HENNING
HASLUND-CHRISTENSEN, 1936-37 and 1938-39 (Kobenhavn:
Gyldendalski Boghandel, Nordisk Forlag, l950)
and
Boyer,Martha, MONGOL JEWELLERY: RESEARCHES ON THE SILVER
JEWELLERY COLLECTED BY THE FIRST AND SECOND DANISH
CENTRAL ASIAN EXPEDITIONS UNDER THE LEADERSHIP OF HENNING
HASLUND-CHRISTENSEN, 1936-37 AND 1938-39 (Kobenhaven:
Gyldendalske Boghandel Nordisk Forlag, l952)
Additional stuff:
"The Mongols", from the Osprey Mean-at-Arms series,
by S.R. Turnbull. About $10 at military-history/
minatures shops. ISBN 0 85045 372 0. Lots of good pictures,
both modern ones and period illustrations, and good info
on the when, where, why, and how of the Mongol armies.
"The Devil's Horsemen : the Mongol Invasion of Europe",
by James Chambers, ISBN 0-689-10942-3. Focuses on the
interaction between the Mongols and their Christian
and Moslem neighbors to the west.
"The Devil's Horsemen" was a major source used to make
"Storm from the East", a four-hour documentary that was on
The Learning Channel. You can buy the tapes from The Learning
Channel, somehow : call 1-800-555-1212 and see if TLC has
a video sales 800 number.
The movie "Close to Eden", made in Mongolia, in Mongolian,
available with English subtitles, also touches on
Mongol traditional dress, as well as teaching lots
about modern and to a lesser extent period Mongolian
culture. It's also a very entertaining movie. I'm
looking for it on laserdisk.
All SCA Mongols should have a translation of "The
Secret History of the Mongols".
"Chinese Wispers" is an interesting look at some of
the Mongol's most famous actions. I like it, anyway.
Tower Records often has Mongolian music CDs in their
"International" section. The musicians often dress
in traditional costumes for the cover photos.
There is also a group called "The Mongolian Society". Some
book stores can tell you how to contact them. They have all
sorts of things, including learn-to-speak-Mongolian tapes.
But don't mention the SCA to them.
--
Dennis O'Connor doconnor at sedona.intel.com
From: locksley at indirect.com (Joe Bethancourt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Mongols
Date: 26 May 1994 07:45:06 GMT
One can log onto rec.culture.mongolia (I may have the exact name wrong here)
or contact the Chronicler of the Kingdom of Atenveldt, who has written
quite a nice little set of stuff on Mongol garb.
--
locksley at indirect.com PO Box 35190 Locksley Plot Systems
White Tree Productions Phoenix, AZ 85069 USA CyberMongol Ltd
From: HNHN15A at prodigy.com (Jana Russ)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Mongolian Costume
Date: 7 Nov 1995 05:48:01 GMT
Another wonderful source for info on things Mongolian is:
the Mongolia Society
321-322 Goodbody Hall
Indiana University
Bloomington, IN 47405
From time to time they have Mongolian imports (including costumes--if you
are prepared to pay several hundred $). They also have an excellent
selection of books and back issues of their own scholarly journals on a
regular basis. One of the books I have purchased from Mongolia through
the Society is called _National Costumes of the Mongolian Peoples
Republic_, a collection of drawings of all the various Mongol tribes'
traditional del styles.
Membership in the Mongolia Society is $50.00/year and well worth it as
far as I am concerned.
Chai'usun
Dark Horde Moritu (among other things)
From: foxd at silver.ucs.indiana.edu (daniel fox)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Mongol Horsebreeds
Date: 8 Apr 1996 01:48:38 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
I can't give you the number of hands the creatures ran, but the breed of
the Mongolian horse (a.k.a.) pony--is just that the Mongolian pony.
Check out a book called _In Search of Genghis Khan_ by Tim Severin (sp?).
This is the guy who recreated the Brendan voyage. He went to Mongolia
to try to get a Mongolia to Vienna expedition together. It failed but his
his trip gives a lot of details about Mongol ponies.
Audelindis de Rheims
From: dmoc at primenet.com (Dennis O'Connor)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Mongol Horsebreeds
Date: 10 Apr 1996 01:30:01 -0700
foxd at silver.ucs.indiana.edu (daniel fox) wrote:
] I can't give you the number of hands the creatures ran, but the breed of
] the Mongolian horse (a.k.a.) pony--is just that the Mongolian pony.
]
] Check out a book called _In Search of Genghis Khan_ by Tim Severin (sp?).
] This is the guy who recreated the Brendan voyage. He went to Mongolia
] to try to get a Mongolia to Vienna expedition together. It failed but his
] his trip gives a lot of details about Mongol ponies.
I'm not sure when Mongols started using ponies. If memory serves,
Mongols originally rode full-size horses, but at some point in
history the Chinese decided that the Mongols were too dangerous on
full size horses, and slaughtered all the of them, leaving only
short horses, a.k.a. ponies. I believe this occurred well after
the Great Khans ( Chinghis through Kublai ) but would not bet the
rent on it.
My point, of course, is that in the SCA time period, Mongols
did not usually ride ponies, but rather rode magnificent horses.
---
Dennis O'Connor Not Speaking for Anyone Else.
dmoc at primenet.com Fear is the Enemy : TIP#518
From: Magorn <mgallehe at dcez.dcez.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Mongol Horsebreeds
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 16:39:23 -0400
Organization: Capital Area Internet Service info at cais.com 703-448-4470
not entirely correct I'm afraid...Ponies are smaller, and tend to be more
surefooted and have greater endurances than regular horse breeds, and as
for strength, the single strongest horse breed in the world is generally
considered to be the Shetland Mine pony....Ponies are a more primitive
form of horse...and cannot run as fast as the well bred long-legged
variety, but should not in general be considered inferior horses. the
Mongols of the Steppes rode very fast horses, but the Mongols of the
mountains did in fact use ponies...
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: Heather McCann <heather.mccann at utoronto.ca>
Subject: Re: Mongol Horsebreeds
Organization: UTCC Campus Access
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 20:29:36 GMT
Chris Hartley <Chartley at bendnet.com> wrote:
>Ian Goss writes:
>
>>The Mongols did not ride ponies, they rode horses. When they were at
>>war they used their horses as pack animals as well. These horses are
>>impressive critters. They can cart around alot of weight. Ponies are
>>the midgets of the horse world (i.e. not as strong, durable).
>
>To which Qada'an Nachin scrambles for her books.
>
>I remember reading that the pony is more prevalent in Mongolia in
>later periods because someone (the Chinese government I think) ordered
>the larger horses to be slaughtered after the end of the Mongol
>invasion with the intent of preventing another from happening... Does
>this sound familiar to anyone?
>
>Qada'an
ABSOLUTELY!
After recently finishing an undergrad essay on Mongolian Calvary tactics
and as an avid horsewoman, I throughly agree with Qada'an.
1.Ponies are far sturdier in their composition than
horses. Firstly, from a physiological perspective, they
carry less weight to be supported on 4 fragile legs, while
their legs themselves are known to be bulkier. One only
has to look at the Welsh, Connemara or Cob ponies of the
British Isles who served the Celts well to realize this.
Secondly, ponies unlike horses, will eat almost anything and
may survive on any form of feed in comparison to horses which
have faster metabolisms, lose weight quickly and require a
bulkier form of feed.
2.Thus, the animals which thrived on the sparse scrubland of
the Mongolian steppes were ponies and not horses. This
provided an advantage in battle since the Mongols didn't have
to carry feed for their animals in their army trains and were
thus more mobile. In comparison, the European armies were
forced to have approx. 200 or so peasants at the back of any
army carry the hay of their country for the calvary, as the
large war horses (pre-coursers to the modern Percheron or
Clysdale) required heavy bulk feed and would often fall ill or
refuse to eat if they were offered hay etc. to which they were
unaccustomed.
3.The use of ponies and not horses allowed the Mongols the
advantage of speed and manouverability in battle. Like a large
car, the European war horse took a lot of time to get up to
full speed, a long time to slow down and an even longer time
and radius to turn. Steppe ponies however, on account of their
small size were faster in close combat and could turn on a
dime.
Thus, I may assure Ian Goss that it was indeed ponies and not horses that the Mongols rode, a factor which turned many a battle in the 13th C.
From: ccarson530 at aol.com (CCarson530)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Mongol Horsebreeds
Date: 3 May 1996 09:23:47 -0400
The horses being spoken of were indeed ponies, less than 14 hands,
however, due to the fact that they had short backs and their bone and
ligaments are and were stronger and less prone to injury they were and are
ideally suited for their work. Ponies as a rule are most hardy and
healthy. They take a lot of punishment. It should be remembered also
that those Mongols were not the size of the average man today. Nor were
most Native Americans, large in stature. The desert breeds of horse have
a genetically inclined system that replenishes the oxygen in their muscles
and removes the lactic acid that develops much faster than larger warm or
cold blood horses. Hence they have far greater endurance. The modern
Arabian, Akal Teki, Turkish, Afgan pony, Asian Indian breeds, Barb horses
and other sub-breeds were developed from that early stock without doubt.
Another problem develops when those who aren't knowledgeable with horse
"lingo", try to understand horse descriptions. A horse is a horse, and a
mare can be loosely spoken of as a horse, however she really isn't, but a
horse is always horse. It gets worse.
From: b.scott at bscott.async.csuohio.edu (Brian M. Scott)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Mongol feminine naming sources?
Date: 27 May 1996 22:02:40 GMT
Organization: Cleveland State University
Mairi <sionnach at io.com> says:
>I am looking for someone with a repository of Mongolian feminine
>naming sources, or perhaps a Horde member with a Mongolian dictionary who
>would be willing to translate some name ideas for me.
I recommend getting in touch with Mistress Marta as tu Mika-Mysliwy,
mka Linda Miku, 2527 E. Third Street, Tucson, AZ 85716. Some years
back she compiled a small collection of Mongolian names, including
some two-score feminine given names, which was published in the
proceedings of one of the Known World Heraldic Symposia. She is
quite likely to have information on other aspects of Mongol culture
as well.
Talan Gwynek
From: ej613 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Maureen S. O'Brien)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Mongol feminine naming sources?
Date: 3 Jun 1996 00:03:11 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH (USA)
The _Babur nama_ is a haphazard sort of diary/autobiography written by
Babur, the first of the Great Moghuls. He includes little portraits
of the important men and women in his life, Mongol, Turkish and Indian.
My dad's (old) popular retelling of his story notes a translation from
1921 (_The Babur-nama in English_, Annette S. Beveridge); there are
probably others now.
It also notes the memoirs of the Princess Gulbadan (_The History of
Humayun:Humayun-nama_, Annette S. Beveridge). Probably any books you
would find on this period would mention more sources useful to you.
Oh, and the old book my dad has is _Babur the Tiger_, Harold Lamb,
Bantam, 1961.
--
Maureen S. O'Brien We are like the roses ---
ad451 at dayton.wright.edu We are forced to grow.
From: IVANOR at delphi.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Mongol feminine naming sources?
Date: 3 Jun 1996 23:36:18 GMT
Quoting ej613 from a message in rec.org.sca
>The _Babur nama_ is a haphazard sort of diary/autobiography written by
>Babur, the first of the Great Moghuls. He includes little portraits
>of the important men and women in his life, Mongol, Turkish and Indian.
>My dad's (old) popular retelling of his story notes a translation from
>1921 (_The Babur-nama in English_, Annette S. Beveridge); there are
>probably others now.
>It also notes the memoirs of the Princess Gulbadan (_The History of
>Humayun:Humayun-nama_, Annette S. Beveridge). Probably any books you
>would find on this period would mention more sources useful to you.
>Oh, and the old book my dad has is _Babur the Tiger_, Harold Lamb,
>Bantam, 1961.
Excellent book. I read it with much enjoyment when it first came out. (I was
working in a library at the time and got to see the goodies early!)
Carolyn Boselli ivanor at delphi.com Host of CF35..SCAdians on Delphi
ivanor at localnet.com
From: "Per Inge Oestmoen" <pioe at powertech.no>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: The Mongols & Chingis Khan
Date: 19 Nov 1996 20:51:52 GMT
Hello, all of you interested in the history of Old Mongolia and the
Chingis-Khanite Mongols.
I have recently opened a website, exclusively devoted to the Mongols. You
will find documents, links and information pertaining to all aspects of the
Mongols during the era of Chingis Khan. A sizeable bibliography is also to
be found there. The history of the Chingis-Khanite Mongols has many
facettes, and my emphasis is on the ideological, philosophical and
spiritual foundations of the Mongol Empire.
It was on the spiritual plane the Mongols won their triumphs. Victories not
first and foremost over their military opponents, but over the limitations
imposed upon us when living in a physical body. The Mongols managed to
break out of the normal adaptive limits of Man. They accomplished, in an
extraordinary degree, the development of the full human potential,
physically, psychologically, intellectually, (!) emotionally and
spiritually. The results have no parallel in the whole history of the
world.
George Vernadsky put it this way:
"What were the causes of the overwhelming success of the Mongol drive? How
did it happen that a nation of more than a million people conquered a
multitude of other nations with a total population of around one hundred
million?" "The sudden outburst of aggressive energy among the Mongols in
the early 13th century still remains a psychological riddle. To use an
analogy with the physical sciences, a sort of psychic explosion took
place." "What is not so easy to explain is the intensity of feeling and
seriousness of purpose which characterize(d) both Chingis-Khan and his
close advisers."
Do you want to acquaint yourself with this exceptional people and their
ways? Then visit this site:
http://www.powertech.no/~pioe/
Per Inge Oestmoen, Norway
pioe at powertech.no
From: Bill Toscano <toscano at q.continuum.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Mongols in National Geographic
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 07:03:01 -0500
Just a quick note: The newest National Georgraphic has a good article on
Genghis Khan and a great two-sided map about the Mongols that shows a
lot of period borders, etc.
Liam St. Liam
Simple man, simple canton
(And a teacher of World History who is glad he hasn't gotten to the
Mongols yet)
From: HNHN15A at prodigy.com (Jana Russ)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Ger (Yurt) Question.
Date: 1 Dec 1996 16:48:21 GMT
Hello Corun,
>>In addtion, it seems that the inside walls were also covered with
>>felt, as to the roof also having a second layer I have not seen it
>>done, but it could have been done.
>
>I haven't seen inside walls covered with felt, but can't say this
>wasn't done, only that I think it unlikely. I have seen cloth wall
>coverings, but these were on modern gers, again the commercially
>made ones. The coverings are quite attractive.
What Kyle may be refering to are the layered "applique & cutwork" felt
rugs made by some Mongol tribes. These are thinner felt panels (same
weight of felt as is used for boot liners and indoor slippers) dyed
variuos colors and stitched together in layers, then cutout shapes reveal
the layers/colors below and the whole piece is enhanced by embroidery.
These rugs were used on floors, but also were hung on walls, over doors,
and used as bedcovers. Hung on walls they would definitely be an added
protection against winter winds (but in summer simple reed screens are
hung around the walls just to keep out dust and bugs...). I,ve seen
these rugs in pictures and in person (at the Smithsonian) and even made a
couple. They are a good use of extra felt to small or too thin to use
for Yurt covers and the layering gives them both strength and warmth as
well as a way to mix colors.
RW...
Chai'usun of the Dark Horde Moritu
Gwyntarian, Middle
(Jana Russ janaruss at prodigy.com)
From: nayat at panix.com (nayat)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Tatar Yoke/Medieval Russia/Novgorod
Date: 24 Mar 1997 15:43:37 -0500
Corun MacAnndra <corun at access5.digex.net> wrote:
>
>Hmmm, I don't really know much about a Mongol merchant class. I'm sure the
>Mongols traded back and forth, but whether there was a specific class that
>ran caravans or lived in places far removed from their tribes or the places
>the Mongols subjugated is a question I can't answer. I would think, however,
>that if Novogrod had not been subjugated by the Mongols, it would have become
>a haven for those Russians escaping the Mongols, and therefor I would guess
>that Mongols in general would have been very unwelcome to the point that any
>might have been jailed or even killed out of hand. The Rus have never liked
>conquerors, and the Mongols were pretty ruthless.
>
>Corun
To say that the Rus didn't like being conquored by the Mongols is an
understatement. They went so far as to deny it in their chronicles, while
still preserving their history. I would point anyone interested in the
topic to Charles J. Halperin's book _Russia and the Golden Horde: The
Mongol Impact on Medieval Russian History_ published by Indiana Press.
As to Mongol Merchants I would point out that the reason Chinggis khan
turned west was to punish the Shah of Khurasan for killing Mongol
Merchants. Of course he thought they were spys, but the Great Khan taught
him.
Umbar in Hashiral Daudachi, Beis
From: stddly at SHSU.edu
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 00:07:06 -0500
To: ansteorra at eden.com
Subject: The Map of the Ordu
Thought ya'll would like to see this link
It is a clickable map of a mongol yurt "village"
and has lots of information including a mongolian
dictionary
http://www.shadowdragon.org.uk/map.htm#Map
Lorraine
Subject: Shamanic Mumblings - The Ovoo
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 98 07:39:48 MST
From: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu>
To: BrnWndMstr at aol.com, seareach at juno.com, chhintze at bmd.clis.com, cordanjr at jmu.edu, corun at access.digex.net, stefan at texas.net, "Mark.S Harris (rsve60)" <rsve60 at email.sps.mot.com>
For those of you with Mongols in your territories GafferBear, shaman
of the Great Dark Horde wrote and Okayed to pass on:
GafferBear wrote:
<<<Anyone out there with info about Obo's?
I'm kinda interested in building an Obo
(shrine) on site near camp (basically it's
a pile of rocks with a pole and flag, maybe
some streamers)>>>
Magnus, you're welcome (so is anyone else)
to post this to any archive you wish.
Hrothgar; in answer to your question:
______________<MUMBLE>_____________
"Ovoos" (singular, "ovoo"), pronounced
OE-voos, serves two purposes in Mongolian
culture.
On the religious side, they represent places
where the local nature spirits and Ongon
(specific spirits) reside, and are places of
memorial, as well. The Ovoo for Geneghis
Khan, in Ulaan Baator, for instance, is
comprised of rocks; bricks; bottles (which
arrive there unopened, are blessed, drunk
in honor, and placed on); sculptures;
written blessings on paper, fabric, and
money; chachka ([sp?] - knicknacks; little
paper dolls; little fabric dolls; and various
other ingredients. These are all placed in
reverence. The "Blessing Tree" is something
which **can** be done atop (actually,
amongst, since the piece of wood must be
placed upright in the ground to start) an
ovoo, and would end up with more of the
'perishable' offerings (like money, paper,
fabric). When going to see the local
shaman, many people will ask particular
blessings for a particular need. They tie
something (a strip of cloth, a piece of
yarn, money, little dolls of various
manufacture, etc.) on the tree as an
offering to the Ongon and other spirits,
and then head on. The belief is that these
spirits will take on the solution for the
problem, and will be ready to function on
it by the time they enter the shamanic ritual.
The second cultural use for ovoos is for
orientation in the wilderness. If you
have a hilly country, mostly sandless
desert, you can map road by going ridge
to ridge fairly easily. Even if you skirt
the ridge, you're like to see the ridges
on all sides. So on the far side of the
ridge, you should see th next ovoo.
Where roads diverge, you can count
ovoos (pass 3 going west, turn south at
the next, follow that for 4 ovoos, and
when you come into the next valley, we'll
be there to hold the dog.) and give
directions. New ovoos are springing up
all the time, but if you travel a route
frequently (as nomads are want to do),
you'll essentially learn of any new ones
being generated.
And I do mean generated. People creating
ovoos in the Gobi (and the Takla-Makan,
for a large part) gather rocks, twigs, and
just about anything else they can get their
hands on along the road to add to these sites.
The growth of a collection mirrors the
centrism of the associated spirits around
that spot.
There are formulae for Blessings in
Mongolian shamanism, as well as others
(the Ngasan shamans sing at objects to
bless them, carryings notes well over a
minute and a half!), some of which have
been mentioned elsewhere, and which I
will present again at a future time.
As for the construction, one should
hopefully start with a barkess, twisted,
natural piece of wood. It should have
been found, unattached to Mother Earth,
without its bark, preferably nearby the
place where the ovoo is to be constructed.
The belief behind using a really twisty
piece of wood, such as the root structure
of a fairly mature sapling, is that any
tree or piece of wood so twisted *has*
to have been there, and been grown, for
a *reason*, therefore spirits *must* be
behind it. These pieces are called Kam's
Trees. Occasionally, a live tree is planted.
Nevertheless, the rocks pile up.
In parting, I'll say: Not all Blessing Trees
need ovoos, nor do all ovoos have Blessing
Trees. There are, however, often things
left in or on the ovoo and its piece of
wood. There is almost always some
piece of fabric tied at the top, with
some history of the ovoo and what it
ceremonializes.
This is the mark of a shamanistic society,
which marks out the land based on the
collective power of the people who live
there, and who always have. Ancestors
mean a lot. Remember yours, those who
you still have, and those who have gone,
the next time you see an ovoo. Look at
the spirits of natural things. Give their
names, and offer them your blessings.
Almost always, you'll find that you get
theirs in return.
_______________</MUMBLE>_______________
Yostoii! Ride Well!
~G~
Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 15:14:13 -0500 (EST)
From: Jenne Heise <jenne at tulgey.browser.net>
To: Shire of Eisental <eisental at tulgey.browser.net>,
SCA Arts list <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Silk Road site (review from LIIWEEK)
Those who are interested in the history of East asia (especially mongols)
may be interested in this site:
Silk Road Foundation - http://www.silk-road.com/
The Silk Road Foundation Web site offers a fascinating
introduction to the history and culture of the people and
places along the ancient Silk Road which includes Inner and
Central Asia. In addition to information about the lectures,
courses, and community events that the Foundation
sponsors, this site includes a variety of articles,
bibliographies, and images related to Silk Road topics.
Also included are sections devoted to Xinjiang and
Dunhuang studies, a historical chronology (still under
construction) with links to additional information (e.g.
history of silk), and a list of other interesting Silk Road
links.
Jadwiga Zajaczkowa (Shire of Eisental; HERMS Cyclonus), mka Jennifer Heise
jenne at tulgey.browser.net
Subject: Quilting
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 16:51:16 -0500
From: nix at iolinc.net (Malone, N.)
Organization: Management Resources
To: Merry Rose <atlantia at atlantia.sca.org>,
Betty & David Eyer <Betty_and_David at compuserve.com>
Poster: nix at iolinc.net (Malone, N.)
Quilted armor sources are available in both of the Historic Warriors on
Mongols and China, as well as Moguls and Persians. I dont remember the
publisher but its that little paperback series on fighters with glossy
covers.
Subject: New Mongolian Armor Book is out.
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 99 10:56:31 MST
From: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu>
To: cordanjr at jmu.edu
Our friend John Cordani / Pao Hu Tso of the House Sain Noyan informed
me that the publication on Mongolian Armour is now available.:
..............................
The publication in the Mongolian Society is in print and
available. It was in galley print when I was at Indiana
University in the fall.
The Mongolian paper is available, probably at $8.00 plus
handling from
The Mongolian Society, Inc.
322 Goodbody Hall
Indiana University
Bloomington, IN 47405-2401
phone 812 855 4078
fac 812 855 7500
email monsoc at indiana.edu
Title: MONGOLIAN SURVEY Issue Five, 1998.
...........................
Talked to the lady this morning and ordered mine. $8 is correct plus
your choice of shipping and handling. A book on felt tents by Andrews
is expected in a month or two. Didn't know for sure if it was the
same expensive one that he produced in Europe a year or so back.
That one is $175 and can be found off a page off the SCA Arts page
on Medieval Pavillion Resources. Hopefully this one will be a damn
sight cheaper.
They also have a range of other Mongolian publications by the Society
available.
Also she has a Mongolian made yurt model in a box at $75 (one only).
And ten (only) mongolian hats - Description Blue with a red knot on
top, yellow trim and a flower design in the fabric. $25 & shipping.
They are VERY aware of who Master Todric is and his yurts. <VBEG>
If you want a medieval yurt contact todric at raex.com, customs done.
I am not affiliated with the business.
Master Magnus Malleus, Atlantia, GDHorde
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:57:27 -0500
From: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu>
Organization: Windmaster's Hill, Atlantia, and the GDH
To: - Ger Makers <ger-makers at PEAK.ORG>
Subject: Mongol Armour Book
You might be interested in the following:
Arms and Armour of the Great Steppe in the Times of the Mongol
Expansion (12-14th C) by Withold Swietoslwski.
United by Genghis Khan in the 12th Century, Central Asian Nomadic Armies became a force of terror afflicting both the great Chinese Empire to the East and the European Kingdoms to the West. The impression that these conquering armies were only lightly armed haas been an accident of historical research. As this ground-breaking book (published in English, in Poland) shows, the nomads possessed a technological range of weapons and armour, which at least matched the warriors with whom they came in contact. Because most of the published studies of this material have been in Russian, and other languages of the former USSR, western scholars have lacked access to this information...until now.... This concise synthesis covers not only human and horse armor, but also explores literary evidence for explosives and chemical weapons. With full bibliographic notes, and a number of line drawings, this is a welcome publication on a previously unexplored topic. 144pp., 33 b/w plates. (Studies on the History of the Ancient and Medieval Arts of Warfare (SHAMAW) III. Oficyna Naukowa 1999) ISBN 838587402X Pb $19.95
Arms and Armour in the Medieval Teutonic Orders State in Prussia
by Andrzej Nowakowski. 161pp., 35 b/w plates., pb., SHAMAW II, 1994
ISBN 8385874011 $19/95
Cataphracti and Clibanarii: Studies on the Heavy Armoured Cavalry
of the Ancient World by Mariusz Mielczarek. 145 p., 34 b/w plates,
SHAMAW I, 1993, Pb $19.95. ISBN 8385874003
Available from David Brown Book Co.
<david.brown.bk.co at snet.net>
Magnus, GDH
**DO NOT repost to the Rialto or any other NEWSGROUP.**
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 13:59:03 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: SC - OT- Center for Study of Eurasian Nomads
If anyone is interested in Steppes nomads in general, pray let me direct you
to the Center for the Study of Eurasian Nomads:
http://www.csen.org/index.html
Bear
Subject: Re: ANST - Some assistance please ....
Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 22:51:15 MST
From: "Ulf Gunnarsson" <ulfie at mmcable.com>
To: <ansteorra at ansteorra.org>
CC: <foailtighearna at hotmail.com>
Foailtighearna wrote:
> I am currently doing research on Mongols as a whole. I was hoping that some
> kind soul might have some better information about them than I could find.
> (mainly on period names {I could only find bits and pieces} and possible
> dress {If any aside from Caftan})
What a coincidence. Someone just showed me a book this weekend on Mongols.
"The Secret History of the Mongols", trans. by Francis Woodman Cleaves. The
original text was written in Mongolian around 1240 AD, but does not survive.
It was translated phonetically into Chinese in the following century, and
from this the English translation made. Hardcover copy is just over $20.
A site I just hit on that talks more about Mongol names is
http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names/baras-aghur/mongolian.html
and that is linked to by Modar's SCA site at
http://www2.kumc.edu/instruction/academicsupport/itc/staff/rknight/Mongol.htm
(he's the Baron of Forgotten Sea, and a herald too...)
Ulf Gunnarsson
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 18:01:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Filo/phyllo-- was [Re: SC - duck and bread]
- --- Elaine Koogler <ekoogler at chesapeake.net> wrote:
> I'm not sure where you can find it. Paul sent me a
> copy of the part he wrote as
> a courtesy when I thought I wouldn't be able to get
> "Soup". The monograph was
> edited by Reuven Amitai-Preiss and David O. Morgan,
> and published in 1999 by
> Brill (Leiden, Boston, Koln). You might try
> checking your local library to see
> if they can get it on Inter-Library loan. I suspect
> that the Library of Congress should have a copy of it.
Of course they do, but they don't do ILL IIRC.
Amitai-Preiss, Reuven, 1955-
The Mongol empire and its legacy / edited by Reuven
Amitai-Preiss and David O. Morgan. Leiden ; Boston : Brill, 1999.
xiv, 361 p. (Islamic history and civilization. Studies and texts ; [24])
ISBN 9004110488
Amazon.com lists the book at $146.50.
Huette
From: Jennifer Heise <jahb at lehigh.edu>
Date: Fri Jun 6, 2003 1:44:09 PM US/Central
To: SCALibrarians at topica.com
Subject: Re: [SCALibrarians] Mongols was: An Introduction
Hey, here's some Mongol links that were sent to the list way back
when...
Eden Blacksmith wrote:
> Here is some URL’s on Mongols
> http://www.coldsiberia.org/webdoc3.htm
> http://www.travelchinaguide.com/intro/history/yuan.htm
> http://www.bartleby.com/65/go/GoldenHE.html
> http://members.aol.com/yikhmongol/history.htm
> http://members.ozemail.com.au/~mongolei/ENGLISH/engindex.html
> http://www.shamanicdimensions.com/ethnosha/mongol.html
> http://www.kiku.com/electric_samurai/virtual_mongol/index.html
> http://www.greatdarkhorde.org/
> http://gozips.uakron.edu/~jana/moritu/moritu.html
> http://www.rootgrafix.com/haggis/gdh/
> YIS
> Eden
> “A Saxon...but, I have been seen in the company of Mongols....down
> wind of course”
> http://w3.one.net/~mpeters/king_hill_script.html
>> From: Alfonsina Svoboda <chatelaine2 at yahoo.com>
>> Reply-To: SCALibrarians at topica.com
>> To: SCALibrarians at topica.com
>> Subject: Re: [SCALibrarians] An Introduction
>> Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 05:29:08 -0700 (PDT)
>>
>> Greetings all,
>> My name is Catriona McKinnon, and while I am not a
>> librarian, I have worked in a library for over a
>> decade. My interests are dance, music, researching
>> different cultures, etc. A question for the list: Where
>> is the best place on the web, if any, to find
>> information on mongols?
>>
>> Catriona Mckinnon
From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>
Date: December 21, 2004 2:31:48 PM CST
To: Known World Librarians <SCA-Librarians at lists.gallowglass.org>
Cc: Subject: [Sca-librarians] CHOICE: Mongols in World History
Recommended by Choice Magazine:
The Mongols in world history. Internet Resource
http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/mongols/
"Elaborate and lavishly illustrated... It intends to create online
curriculum materials on Asia to serve faculty and students in world
history, culture, geography, art, and literature... a teaching guide
with some 40 short essays... background information and curriculum
materials, including primary source documents. Topical sections..."
--
-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 07:14:48 -0400
From: "Phlip" <phlip at 99main.com>
Subject: Fw: [Sca-cooks] Re: Blown Sugar is Chinese Apparently
To: "SCA-Cooks" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Passed Stefan's question along to Paul Buell.
>> I always thought the Mongols must have been rather desperate to use
>> milk as their sugar source for their alcohol. But if cane sugar was
>> as common as mentioned above, I'd think the Mongols would have used
>> sugar, not milk.
>>
>> Stefan
> Mongols used milk because of prestige and taste. They certainly had
> wild berries and things...and certainly had distilled booze...
>
> Paul
Saint Phlip,
CoD
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 12:45:28 -0400
From: "Phlip" <phlip at 99main.com>
Subject: Fw: [Sca-cooks] Re: Blown Sugar is Chinese Apparently
To: "SCA-Cooks" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
>> The Mongols are from the northern and northwest deserts of China/Mongolia.
>> Sugar cane doesn't grow there. Not much grows there except spotty grass and
>> gravel. Milk was probably the easiest thing to ferment. And remember, the
>> Mongols didn't start moving into those cane growing regions until late in
>> the 12th Century and by the time they got to India, the were Moslems.
>>
>> Bear
> The Yinshan zhengyao certainly knows sugar, but no evidence they fermented
> it. I think the Mongols preferred starting with milk or fruit drinks. Note
> that they used freeze distillation too.
>
> Paul (Buell)
Saint Phlip,
CoD
To: SCA Newcomers list <scanewcomers at yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Mongolian naming practice in the SCA
Posted by: "LCopland at aol.com" LCopland at aol.com loricopland
Date: Mon Jun 21, 2010 1:43 pm ((PDT))
I aksed the Khan of our household and he sent me this answer- hope it helps:
Here are two important resources for anyone interested in doing a Mongol persona in the SCA.
First, there is a Yahoo group specifically for Mongol interests. I highly recommend it for all Mongol personae as it has some serious researchers, ethnic Mongolians, and many SCAdians who can and do share their experience. It is a good place for any questions about Mongols and having a Mongol persona in the SCA:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Mongols_in_the_SCA/
Second is specific to dealing with Mongolian names. The College of Heralds may not be the best place for checking Mongol names but for those who desire to work with them, this article attempts to reconcile submitting a name to the CoA and their rules, with period Mongolian naming practices:
Researching Mongol Names in the SCA
http://silverhorde.viahistoria.com/research/ResearchingMongolNames.html
To answer the original question, no. The suffix –dei or –dai does not stand alone as a name so would not work as a surname, byname, family name, clan name, or whatever other semantic some herald calls requiring two names. Even if it did stand alone, there is the possibility of changing the meaning of the name. The aforementioned article mentions some ways in which a Mongol name can be submitted within CoH rules. You can subsequently use or ignore everything other than the given name. Even formally, just addressing someone by only given name is customary.
Gulugjab Tangghudai
Khan of the Silver Horde
From: tamara at suncrow.com
Subject: [Lochac] very good Ukranian website for Mongol stuff
Date: June 4, 2014 7:27:00 PM CDT
To: "Shambles (Lochac)" <lochac at sca.org.au>
Posted on another list: the website of some Ukrainian re-enactors who've put up lots of chewy info on period Mongolian costume, jewelry, textiles, etc. For Drake, there's even some info on cooking (be interested to hear how useful that is). Most of it appears to be re-published journal articles. You'll need to run it through Google Translate.
http://www.kitabhona.org.ua/index.html
This one is "Clothing of the nobility of the Great Mongol Empire in 1207-1266":
http://www.kitabhona.org.ua/costum_costum/khripunovorda1.html
Includes photos and diagrams of several extant garments I've not yet come across published in other (admittedly mostly-English-language) sources.
But have a trawl, there's heaps.
*bounce* *bounce* *bounce*
Kazimira
<the end>