Mongols-msg - 1/30/08
Mongol culture, bibliography. Mongol horses.
NOTE: See also the files: Russia-msg, East-Eur-msg, Hungary-msg, yurts-msg, livestock-msg, kumiss-msg, dairy-prod-msg.
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NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.
Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).
Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: NAHUM HAZEV (6/14/93)
To: markh at terminator
Yurt (from Corun)
From:"Corun MacAnndra" 11-JUN-1993 09:02:45.92
To: IN%"FNKLSHTN at ACFcluster.NYU.EDU"
Subj: RE: Yurt
Greetings and peace,
Yes, I could send some cultural info on the yurt as well. Some points
of interest. When setting up the yurt, put the door facing southeast.
This was done so that light coming in the roof ring during would light
specific parts of the yurt at the proper time of the day. For example,
by the end of the day, the light would fall on the kitchen area where
dinner was prepared. There was a man's side and a woman's side to the
yurt. There was a cosmology to the yurt as well, linking it with the
universe. In the center of the yurt is the hearth. Opposite the door
on the far side of the yurt is the altar. Clockwise from the door and
around the hearth we have seating for the man's guests, the honoured
guest, the man, the woman, the woman's honoured guest, women's guests,
until coming back to just right of the door (facing into the yurt) we
have the place for the children and servants. This is also the kitchen
side of the yurt. On the women's side is also the bed. Also, the yurt
is owned by the woman, whose job is to maintain the home and hearth,
and to raise the children and make the felt etc. The men own the herds,
and hunt and protect. A Mongol adage is to never have more wives than
yurts. The idea being that each wife had her own and there was no
rivalry between wives.
The cosmology that I spoke of above goes like this; the hearth, the
hearth square, the yurt, the four corners of the earth, the earth,
the universe. Thus all was linked with the home, and the home being
mobile was always part of the universe.
I hope this helps. I'll send plans as soon as I can.
In service,
Corun
From: doconnor at sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Terms of Venery
Date: 2 Jul 93 04:10:48
Organization: Intel i960(tm) Architecture
deane at binah.cc.brandeis.edu (David Matthew Deane) writes:
] I suppose a group of mongols is a horde
If you're a barbarian European, maybe. "Horde" is a corruption
of the Mongol "ordu", which means "homeland" more than "bunch of".
The only Mongol group-name I can recall right now is "tumen":
a military unit of (when formed) 10,000 Mongols, I think.
--
Dennis O'Connor doconnor at sedona.intel.com
From: greg at bronze.lcs.mit.edu (Greg Rose)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Chinese - yes or no ??
Date: 29 Jun 1993 16:08:13 -0400
Organization: MIT LCS guest machine
Fiacha writes:
>I do not know of any Mongol games so I make no judgement in that area.
The two principal Mongol games of which I am aware are Nishapur and
Rug-by (but you need an Abbasid and a cavalry turma to play the latter).
Hossein/Greg
From: corun at access.digex.net (Corun MacAnndra)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Chinese - yes or no ??
Date: 29 Jun 1993 19:08:28 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
In article <20q7fd$2o0 at bronze.lcs.mit.edu> greg at bronze.lcs.mit.edu (Greg Rose) writes:
>Fiacha writes:
>
>>I do not know of any Mongol games so I make no judgement in that area.
>
>The two principal Mongol games of which I am aware are Nishapur and
>Rug-by (but you need an Abbasid and a cavalry turma to play the latter).
There is another called Aklagh Tarteesh, which translates loosely as "picking
up sheep at a gallop." No, really.
Corun
==============================================================================
Corun MacAnndra | God runs electromagnetics on Mon., Wed. and Fri. by
Dark Horde by birth | the wave theory and the Devil runs it by quantum
Moritu by choice | theory Tue., Thur. and Sat. -- Sir Wm. Bragg
From: adelekta at kentvm.kent.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Chinese - yes or no ??
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 93 13:07:03 EST
Organization: Kent State Univ.
corun at access.digex.net (Corun MacAnndra) writes:
>There is another called Aklagh Tarteesh, which translates loosely as "picking
>up sheep at a gallop." No, really.
This sounds remarkably similar to bozkashi, a central asian game whose name
translates as "goat catch." These livestock games sound like a pretty common
nomadic pastime... :)
-Zimra al-Ghaziyah
From: doconnor at sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Baptism (was Neo Paga
Date: 11 Aug 93 08:02:44
bettina.helms at channel1.com (Bettina Helms) writes:
] SH> CLB> However, from other posts, I see that a "baptism" implies that
] SH> CLB> it is a "Christian baptism". I am not planning a Christian baptism.
]
] SH>Ok. Then it's not a baptism in any usual sense, since the custom of either
] SH>dripping water, or dunking the person in it, is a Christian ceremony that
] SH>so far as I have ever heard doesn't have an exact analogy to any other
] SH>religion. Many religions have some sort of ceremony welcoming the new
] SH>person, but they aren't specifically baptisms.
]
] Such fragmentary records as we have of the Eleusinian Mysteries suggest
] that a whole-body dip in the sea was part of the initiation ritual...and
] it *has* been noted that "Christian" baptism started out as a
] fringe-Jewish thing (a special variant of the ritual cleansing of the
] mikveh?). Water-based purification ceremonies appear to be especially
] popular in hot climates, which stands to reason. :-)
Bathing in the Ganges river to purify oneself is a popular modern
Hindu (I think) custom.
Of course, Mongols were forbidden by the Yassa, the Law of Chingiss Kahn,
from polluting water sources, which prohibition included bathing in them.
--
Dennis O'Connor doconnor at sedona.intel.com
From: Judith L. Tabron
To: Mark Harris
Date: 12/28/93
Greetings to my lord Stefan,
Following is the bibliography in its current state -- I hope you find some use
for it, and let me know if it has been of use to anyone.
Raedwynn
Contemporaries of Marco Polo. Consisting of the Travel Records to the Eastern
Parts of the World of William of Rubruck [1253-1255]; the Journey of John of
Pian de Carpini [1245-1247]; the Journal of Friar Odoric [1318-1330] & the
Original Travels of Rabbi Benjamin of Tudela [1160-1173]. Manuel Komroff. New
York: Boni & Liveright, Inc., 1928.
Mission to Asia. C. Dawson. New York: n.p., 1966. Reprinted 1979.
The Book of Ser Marco Polo the Venetian concerning the kingdoms and marvels of
the East. H. Cordier. Trans. Sir Henry Yule and H. Cordier. London: n.p.,
1903.
The Mongol Mission. C. Dawson. London and New York: n.p., 1955.
The Monks of Kublai Khan, emperor of China. Trans. E. A. W. Budge. London:
n.p., 1928.
The Secret History of the Mongols. Trans. F. W. Cleaves. Cambridge, MA:
Harvard University Press, 1982.
Akner, Grigor of. "History of the Nation of the Archers (the Mongols) by
Grigor of Akanc" [sic.]. Trans. R. P. Blake and R. N. Frye. n.p.: HJAS, XII,
1949.
al-Din, Rashid. The successors of Genghis Khan. Trans. J. A. Boyle. London
and New York: n.p., 1971.
Battuta, Ibn. The travels of Ibn Battuta, A.D. 1325-1354. Trans. H. A. R.
Gibb. Cambridge: Hakluyt Society, 2nd ser., CX, CXVII, CXLI, 1958. Reprinted
1971.
Boyer, Martha. Mongol Jewellry: Researches on the Silver Jewellry collected by
the First and Second Danish Central Asian Expeditions under the leadership of
Henning Haslund-Christensen, 1936-37 and 1938-39. Kobenhavn: Gyldendalski
Boghandel, Nordisk Forlag, 1952.
Boyle, J. A. The Mongol World Empire. London: Variorum Reprints, Collected
Studies series, 1977.
Brooke, R. B. The Coming of the Friars. London: n.p., 1975.
Chambers, J. The Devil's Horsemen, 2nd ed. London: n.p., 1988.
Hansen, Henny Harald. Mongol Costumes: Researches on the Garments Collected by
the First and Second Danish Central Asian Expeditions under the leadership of
Henning Haslund-Christensen, 1936-37 and 1938-39. Kobenhavn: Gyldendalski
Boghandel, Nordisk Forlag, 1950. This is *the* source for descriptions and
even patterns of Mongol clothes, including hats, footwear, etc.
Haslund-Christensen, Henning. The Music of the Mongols: Eastern Mongolia. New
York: Da Capo Press, 1971. Has pictures of music instruments and sheet music.
Henthorn, W. Korea. The Mongol Invasions. Trans. G. Samuel. Leiden: n.p.,
1963.
Hessig, W. The Religions of Mongolia. Trans. G. Samuel. London: n.p., 1980.
Howorth, H. H. History of the Mongols from the 9th to the 19th Century.
London: n.p., 1876.
Juivaini, 'Ala-ad-Din 'Ata-Malik. The History of the World-Conquerer. Trans.
John Andrew Boyle, Ph.D. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1958.
Marshall, Robert. Storm from the East. Berkeley, Los Angeles: University of
California Press, 1993. This book accompanies the popular PBS series.
Morgan, David. O. The Mongols (The Peoples of Europe). Cambridge, MA & Oxford
U.K.: Blackwell, 1986.
Moule, A. C. Christians in China before the year 1550. Cambridge: n.p., 1930.
Moule, A. C. Christians in China before the year 1550. Oxford: n.p., 1986.
Moule, A. C. Quinsai, with other notes on Marco Polo. Cambridge: n.p., 1957.
Needham, J. Clerks and craftsmen in China and the West. Cambridge: n.p.,
1970.
Olschki, L. Guillaume Boucher, a French artist at the court of the Khans.
Baltimore: n.p., 1946.
Phillips, E. D. The Mongols. London: n.p., 1969.
Polo, Marco. Il milione (The Travels of Marco Polo). Trans. A. Ricci.
London: Broadway Travellers, 1931.
Polo, Marco. The Travels of Marco Polo. Trans. Ronald Latham. London:
Penguin Books, 1958.
Ratchnevsky, Paul. Genghis Khan: His Life and Legacy. Thomas Nivison Haining.
Trans. T. N. Haining. Oxford U.K. & Cambridge MA: Blackwell, 1991. Reprinted
1992.
Rubruck, William of. The Mission of Friar William of Rubruck: His Journey to
the court of the Great Khan Mongke 1253-1255. Trans. Peter Jackson. London:
The Hakluyt Society , 1990. This is GREAT fun to read, and *the* period source
for information on the Mongols.
Yule, Sir Henry. Cathay and the way thither. H. Cordier. London: Hakluyt
Society, 2nd ser. XXXIII, XXXVII, XXXVIII, XLI, 191316.
------------------------------------------------------------
This version: Dec. 27, 1993
Compiled by Etain macDhomnuill, Khanate Snow Leopard, of the household of the
Great Dark Horde.
With assistance from Raedwynn aet thaem Grenan Wuda, Dark Horde
and Giuliana del Fiore, Bergantal
------------------------------------------------------------
Please email additions or corrections to:
Internet: tabron at binah.cc.brandeis.edu
CompuServe: 75330,2000
From: dmvolmut at ukanaix.cc.UKans.EDU (David Volmut)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: mongoloid persona
Date: 13 Dec 1993 02:29:04 -0500
> I personally would like a
> bit more than just a few paragraphs of information. I think what bot h the
> requester and myself are looking for is what some of the more experienced and
> knowledgeble members of The Society consider to be reliable sources, rather
> than opinionated or sound bite versions.
>
> Your Servant,
>
> Grey.
>
I missed the initial question. If you are looking for books about Mongol
stuff here are a few good ones.
James Chambre _The Devil's Horsemen_
Peter Jackson _The Mission of Friar William of Rurbruck_ a good book for
those wanting detailed everyday life stuff.
DAvid Morgan _The Mongols_
Hope this helps,
Gilligan of Eire
From: corun at access3.digex.net (Corun MacAnndra)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Mongol stargazers
Date: 4 Mar 1994 17:03:09 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Dennis O'Connor <doconnor at sedona.intel.com> wrote:
>] >This talk of moon and earth and stars and sky seems the useless
>] >banter of softy, idle city folk. Better to spend the time tending
>] >the herds, or hunting, or others of the neccesary business of men.
>] >The gods have so made the heavens that men can know their way,
>] >and judge the coming of the seasons, by observing them. For this
>] >men should be grateful, and not in their arrogance presume to know
>] >how the gods provide this boon to them.
>] >
>] > Buri Dogshin, Mongol
>
>Those of our shamans who have true visions of the future tell us
>that in the years beyond our own, some of the People who Dwell
>in Felt Tents shall fall prey to the tempations of city men,
>and live in houses, and tend the herds no more. I would weep,
>but these seers also tell us that many of our people will not
>succumb, but will instead continue to live in ghers, and tend
>the herds, for at least another 600 winters, and I rejoice.
But can the Children of the Sky Blue Wolf deny the Tengri, Skyfather
to all Mongols? When one lives in the Gobi, one cannot ignore the sky.
>[BTW, Mongol fans : if you _ever_ have the chance to see
> "Close to Paradise", a film made in Mongolia, in Mongolian,
Actually it was called "Close to Eden" in English. The Mongolian title
is "Urga" which does not translate into the English title, but is the
name given to the lasso used by the Mongols to capture stray horses
or wives. Yes, this is a delightful film, and I have heard recently
that it is now available on video tape. There is a very good scene
depicting the traditional method of slaughtering a sheep for the meal
that is made for an honoured guest (in this case, a Russian truck driver
who nearly drives his truck into a river and is rescued by the mani
character).
Bayartai,
Corun (Celtic Mongol at large)
==============================================================================
Corun MacAnndra | Wait a minute! Those were the droids I was looking for!
Dark Horde by birth | Overheard in a bar in Mos
Moritu by choice | Isley Space Port, Tatooine
From: doconnor at sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Morgans/koumiss
Date: 17 Mar 94 10:05:44
x_wolf at vicuna.emcmt.EDU writes:
] Dennis wrote
] |Attila was a Hun, not a Mongol.
]
] BZZZZZT! If you look carefully at the appropriate maps, lineages, and
] tribes, you will see that the Huns, Tartars, and all of their playmates
] originated in Mongolia.
If you delve into Mongolian history, you get the true story :
the area that is now modern-day Mongolia was NOT a country in the
time of Attila or in fact until Temujin made it one. Before Temujin,
there were many tribes in the are, all semi-nomadic, none controlling
any particular geographic area for more than short time. One of
these tribes were the Mongols.
Even the Mongol records of the time maintain the distinction :
Temujin (who became Ghengis Kahn) was a Mongol, but the people
he forged into a nation were not called Mongols : they are
referred to as "the people who dwell in felt tents". Mongol
at that time was still a term only used to refer to the tribe
that Temujin was from.
As to the "Tartars" : this name is a European invention, applied
to the armies of Temujin when they threatened Europe. It's roots are
(I believe) "Tartarus" : a reference to hell, which the armies of
the Kahn were said to be from. "Tartars" were not an actual
gorup of people : just a European fiction. Unfortuneately,
it seems to have persisted into this century.
] "Hun", etc.- is/was a more concise description, i.e. New Yorker
] vs. American.
No, that's not correct. In the time of Attila, and even in the
time of Temujin, a Hun was no more a Mongol than an Lakota
was an Iriquois. They were different tribes, with no unifying
government above them. The fact that the region they sprang
from is currently under a single government is not relevant.
In fact, if I remeber correctly, the reason the Huns invaded
Europe was because they were displaced from the Steppes by
the group of semi-nomadic tribes that included the Mongols ( who
were being dispalced from more eastern areas by the Chinese. )
This means that far from being a Mongol, Attila would have
been an enemy of the Mongols who stole his homeland. Now
my Hun history isn't as good as my Mongol, so corrections
are welcomed.
] You, milord are half-right, and I say this with all the
] confidence of a History Major working (slowly) towards a P.H.D.
I think you've strayed from your specialty to far. The steppes
of Asia ahve a very turbulant and fascinating history. Modern
data can lead to bad assumptions. For example, many people
think that since modern Mongol horses are small ponies, so
were the horses of Temujin's armies. This is not true : the size
of modern Mongol ponies is a result of post-Mongol-Empire
Chinese actions. The Chinese destroyed all the large Mongol
horses to reduce the threat the Mongols represented to China.<