Moghul-India-msg - 7/24/06 The culture and food of Moghul India. The Moghuls (or Mogols) were a dynasty that ruled Northern India from 1526 into the 18th Century. NOTE: See also the files: Mongols-msg, Scythians-msg, spices-msg, Islamic-bib, Islam-msg, silk-road-msg, turbans-msg, cotton-art, silk-msg, textiles-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 10:53:08 -0400 From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food To: Cooks within the SCA sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Craig Jones wrote: > Was talking with a wonderful chap in my Barony just now over dinner and he > expressed a desire to research and cook Moghul style. > I vaguely remember someone mentioning a book that was recently published. > Anyone remember what it was and the quality/authenticity of the recipes? > > Drakey. I suspect that this might be the book you want-- The NI'Matnama Manuscript of the Sultans of Mandu: The Sultan's Book of Delights <http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books- uk&field-author=Titley%2C%20Norah%20M./203-8301489-2310345> by Norah M Titley http://www.routledge-ny.com/shopping_cart/products/product_detail.asp? sku=&isbn=041535059X&parent_id=102&pc= I have to preface this by saying that my husband came home last December and dropped The Ni'matnama Manuscript of the Sultans of Mandu by Norah M. Titley into my lap. He reviewed something for CRC and they sent him two books for free. So he picked up this one for me. Never one to pass up a freebie, especially if it's subtitled "A late fifteenth-century book of recipes written for the Sultan of Mandu, the Ni'matnama." It's authentic. Lots on oranges in it and sweets. It was a nice early holiday present. A number of people on the list own it and the reviews tend to be positive. There's some good stuff in it. Is it worth buying? Yes and no. It's very expensive, so unless someone is very into that area I'd almost have to say no on a purchase. It's listed at $125 currently in the USA. It's not turning up cheap on the used book market. I'd say try for interlibrary loan and see if they can provide a copy. The recipe section isn't that large. The plates take up most of the book. I'd say that most folks could do ok with the just a xeroxed recipe section, save the money on the purchase, and be quite happy. Johnnae Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 10:36:21 -0500 From: "Katherine Throckmorton" <kthrockmorton at lycos.com> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org> Drakey wrote: > I vaguely remember someone mentioning a book that was recently published. > Anyone remember what it was and the quality/authenticity of the recipes? You are probably thinking of the Nimatanama of the Sultan of Madu, the details of which have already been posted. Another reliable source for Moghul food is are the recipe-like things in the 'Ain-i- Akbari which can be found here: http://persian.packhum.org/persian/pf?file=00702051&ct=49 which provide us with a total of thirty dishes. The main limitation is that we are told what the dish is called and what goes into it, but not how it is cooked. There is also a further discussion of the fruits and other foods available, but it is basically a list with prices. http://persian.packhum.org/persian/pf?file=00702051&ct=0 -Katherine/Asma Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 09:16:05 -0700 From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org> I don't know about any recent books on Moghul cooking. The one source I know of is the _Ain i Akbari_, a translation of which was published a very long time ago. It has a list of dishes, with ingredients, quantities, and no instructions. It also has instructions for distilling arrack and making bread. -- David/Cariadoc www.daviddfriedman.com Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 12:58:37 -0400 From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1 at comcast.net> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org> I acquired an excellent book on Moghul foods, etc. a little while back..."The /Ni'matnama /Manuscript of the Sultans of Mandu"...otherwise known as the Sultan's Book of Delights. It's not all food, but does have a number of recipes in it. It also has paintings from the ms. which illustrate, among other things, cooking techniques. I have thoroughly enjoyed it. Kiri Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 18:17:38 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org> > Duriel said: >> Not 'Mongol'...'Moghul'. Persia/Afghanistan/India. Lots of >> cookbooks from there. > > When was this culture? Did it really cover Persia/Afghanistan, and I > assume, parts of northwestern India? What effects did they have upon > medieval Europe? Other than sitting astride some trade routes, so > therefor either enhancing of inhibiting trade from the East? > > Stefan Moghul (or Mogol) is a specific reference to the dynasty that ruled Northern India from 1526 into the 18th Century. The dynasty continued its existence into the 19th Century as a British controlled monarchy. Babur who founded the dynasty was a Persian of Mongol descent from Genghis Khan on his mother's side and Tamerlane on his father's. He failed in the attempt to retake and hold the ancestral empire (Tamerlane's) based in Samakand losing Afganistan, Uzbekistan and a few other pieces of real estate. He led his men into Northern India. Babur had no particular effect on Europe as his conquests come after the Europeans began sailing to India and the East. Tamerlane was a different story, first fighting a war and then controlling a large stretch of the Silk Road before the fall of Byzantium. About 100 years later, the Uighurs began a continuous conflict with the Chinese effectively closed off the Chinese end of the Silk Road and giving impetus to the great Chinese trade fleets. Bear Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 03:17:08 +0200 From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org> Am Donnerstag, 8. Juni 2006 00:27 schrieb Stefan li Rous: > When was this culture? Did it really cover Persia/Afghanistan, and I > assume, parts of northwestern India? What effects did they have upon > medieval Europe? Other than sitting astride some trade routes, so > therefor either enhancing of inhibiting trade from the East? Basically, the Mughal empoerors were responsible for a large part of the India 'myth' of omnipotent tyrants living in untold luxury, dispensing largesse with an open hand and indulging their every whim. When the Europeans reached India in larger numbers by sea, they were just in time to meet their empire at its height, and that must have been quite a spectacle. They didn't quite understand the political role of conspicuous consumption, but they certainly were impressed. The Mughals were happy to trade, and by and large disinterested in matters maritime, so it was a match made in heaven. The Mughals were also instrumental to integrating much of northern India into the mental sphere that considers itself 'India', though that process did not get completed until the Raj, they created the role models for generations of Indian princes, and they were largely responsible for crushing political Hinduism (leading some influential Hindus to cast their lot with the Europeans when the time came), militarising Sikhism, and developing the modus vivendi between the religions that to this day obtains in the parts of India where that works. Last, but not least, they gave German its word for cheating, e.g. at games of chance - 'mogeln' - derived from an Indian technique of cutting very thin semiprecious stone slices to create the impression of large gems. Giano Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 19:05:11 -0500 From: "Katherine Throckmorton" <kthrockmorton at lycos.com> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org> > When was this culture? Depends on *where* you are talking about. In Central Asia (modern Uzbekistan and Tajikistan) Moghul culture, which is in many ways a medly of Persian (although frequently Persian at one remove) and Mongol culture starts in the 14th century. If one is speaking about the Moghul Empire, that starts in the early 16th century, after Babur conquers parts of what is now Afganistan, Pakistan and India. Usually when people are talking about "the Moghuls" they are talking about the 16th century and later. > Did it really cover Persia/Afghanistan, and I > assume, parts of northwestern India? It didn't cover Persia, but the court culture had a strong Persian influence. The precise boundaries of Mughal territory shifted around a fair amount, both during and after the SCA period. A decent summary of the territory involved is, Afganistan, and ever-increasing chunks of modern Pakistan, India and Bangaladesh. These two maps may prove useful. http://www.india-history.com/medival-india/mughal-empire.html http://www.india-history.com/medival-india/mughal-empire.html > What effects did they have upon > medieval Europe? Other than sitting astride some trade routes, so > therefor either enhancing of inhibiting trade from the East? Mainly trade and trade goods, which is no little thing considering that many of the exploratory voyages of the 15th and 16th centuries were aimed at finding a direct route to India. India was an important link in the spice trade. India was also important in the gem and pearl trade, the Bay of Bengal was (and is) a important source of pearls, and during the SCA period all of the diamonds came from India. India was also a major supplier of cotton fabric. During the 16th century the Moghuls were not the only players in this trade, they had competition from the Deccani Sultanates and the Vijayanagara Empire but they did manage to control a lot of it. A number of Europeans came to trade and to "convert the heathen", in the 16th century there was a substantial Portugese presence in Goa and environs. There were also several Europeans who took service in Akbar's court in various capacitites. Finally, there is the fact that the SCA actually does a much better job of imitating the social structure of the Moghul court than any European model ;) Katherine/Asma Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 20:04:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org> Your Grace! You really need to purchase a copy of the Ni'matnama Manuscript. It is a 15th Century manuscript and even though it isn't as big as one would wish, it is a Treasure room of fascinating recipes. It is fascinating to seen the relationship between this manuscript and the al-Baghdadi and the cross over foods. I know we talked about Samosas on this list earlier and there are recipes in this manuscript for them. You would do well to purchase a copy. Just my 2 pfennig. Huette --- David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com> wrote: > I don't know about any recent books on Moghul cooking. The one source > I know of is the _Ain i Akbari_, a translation of which was published > a very long time ago. It has a list of dishes, with ingredients, > quantities, and no instructions. It also has instructions for > distilling arrack and making bread. > -- > David/Cariadoc > www.daviddfriedman.com Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 23:57:53 -0700 From: lilinah at earthlink.net Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Duriel wrote: > Not 'Mongol'...'Moghul'. Persia/Afghanistan/India. Lots of > cookbooks from there. There are no SCA-period Afghan cookbooks that i know of, and only a couple Indian ones. Other than the Ni'matnama, which has both Persian and Indian qualities, i've heard rumors of a surviving Persian cookbook, but if that's true, it hasn't been translated into any Western European language to the best of my knowledge. -- Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM) the persona formerly known as Anahita Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 07:29:40 -0700 (PDT) From: <tom.vincent at yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org> Here's a site with all sorts of relevant content. http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah/links-ME-cuisine.html and another for Indian research http://www.sonoma.edu/rpdc/nbisp/india/iresources.html Duriel Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 10:07:31 -0700 From: lilinah at earthlink.net Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Duriel wrote: >> Not 'Mongol'...'Moghul'. Persia/Afghanistan/India. Lots of >> cookbooks from there. I had responded: > There are no SCA-period Afghan cookbooks that i know of, and only a > couple Indian ones. Other than the Ni'matnama, which has both Persian > and Indian qualities, i've heard rumors of a surviving Persian > cookbook, but if that's true, it hasn't been translated into any > Western European language to the best of my knowledge. Duriel then answered: > Here's a site with all sorts of relevant content. > http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah/links-ME-cuisine.html There's actually very little relevant content on this page. There are no links on this page (which happens to be mine :-) to SCA-period Afghan or Persian recipes. The only relevant link to Moghul Indian food is to the several recipes Duke Cariadoc worked out from the work Ain-i-Akbari, already mentioned previously in this thread. > and another for Indian research > http://www.sonoma.edu/rpdc/nbisp/india/iresources.html I don't [have] much of anything about pre-17th century Moghul cooking on this page. -- Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM) the persona formerly known as Anahita Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 14:39:50 -0400 From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius.magister at verizon.net> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org> On Jun 8, 2006, at 1:07 PM, lilinah at earthlink.net wrote: > They would need to be scholars of food history from before 1601, and > they're pretty rare, since most Indians, like most American and > Europeans, don't know much about food from over 400 years ago. > > It seems to me that you continue to suggest we look at modern > cookbooks, which are almost always not relevant, when threads concern > SCA-period historical cooking. I've got plenty of Persian, Afghan, > and Indian cookbooks on my shelves, and most are modern and not > relevant to the topic. I was recently told about some controversy in my Kingdom in which a Laurel recognized for her work in Persian studies announced in connection with some local cook's modern Middle Eastern cooking that modern ME cooking is fine for SCA use since Persian cooking has not changed materially for 1000 years, and her correspondents in modern Iran confirm this. The guy who told me about all this is another Laurel who has extensively studied the Persian culture in our period, but hasn't done much of a study on food, and merely suspected that this claim was utter sheepdip, without any hard evidence of same. I got out a modern Persian cookbook and showed him an approximate percentage of dishes prominently featuring ingredients the Persians almost certainly could not have had access to 1000 years ago. I pointed out that I couldn't be sure of the extent to which cooking methods and styles had changed, but that the likelihood was that some ancient, traditional methods had survived, and some had probably changed per the same cultural and social forces that caused available foodstuffs to change. Looking at Kitab al-Tabikh, which may not be completely identifiable with the Persian cookery of its time, but which appears to be Persian-influenced, at least, we find some pretty significant differences in techniques and styles. Adamantius Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 13:22:47 -0700 From: lilinah at earthlink.net Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org G. Tacitus Adamantius wrote: > I was recently told about some controversy in my Kingdom in which a > Laurel recognized for her work in Persian studies announced in > connection with some local cook's modern Middle Eastern cooking that > modern ME cooking is fine for SCA use since Persian cooking has not > changed materially for 1000 years, and her correspondents in modern > Iran confirm this. Aargh! Aargh! Aargh! (sound of hair being torn out). I'm on quite a few Near and Middle Eastern oriented SCA e-lists. This was the sort of thing i heard about garb back in the dark ages when i joined up (7 years ago :-) People complained that it was too difficult and too expensive to make period Near/Middle Eastern garb. And besides, things hadn't changed (insert Carl Sagan voice) in *thousands* of years (end Carl Sagan voice). (and i found his intonation especially annoying when i was in labor in the maternity ward and he was on TV. I switched to the World Series. Much better) > The guy who told me about all this is another Laurel who has > extensively studied the Persian culture in our period, but hasn't > done much of a study on food, and merely suspected that this claim > was utter sheepdip, without any hard evidence of same. Wow! Someone else who says "sheepdip" instead of a shorter word! Well, this guy is absolutely correct. Yeah, yeah, i don't know of an SCA period Persian cookbook, but looking through "period" Andalusi, Egyptian, 'Abbasid, and Ottoman cookbooks and comparing the cuisine to modern recipes, it's easy to see that are significant differences. How'd this female get a Laurel?!? (don't answer. I know, i'm not displaying "peer like qualities") > I got out a modern Persian cookbook and showed him an approximate > percentage of dishes prominently featuring ingredients the Persians > almost certainly could not have had access to 1000 years ago. I > pointed out that I couldn't be sure of the extent to which cooking > methods and styles had changed, but that the likelihood was that some > ancient, traditional methods had survived, and some had probably > changed per the same cultural and social forces that caused available > foodstuffs to change. Looking at Kitab al-Tabikh, which may not be > completely identifiable with the Persian cookery of its time, but > which appears to be Persian-influenced, at least, we find some pretty > significant differences in techniques and styles. Oh, yeah. So many of the dishes have Persian derived names and are supposedly based on Persian recipes. This is also true of that handful of 15th C. Ottoman recipes recently published - lots of Persian influence. Related, but tangential... when Ibn Battuta visited with Turkic people in the 14th century, they eschewed sweet dishes. By the 16th century, with the rise to power of the Ottomans, the Turks in Istanbul had developed an enormous sweet tooth. And that's in less than 200 years! According to Yerasimos who translated those 15th c. Ottoman recipes, the Ottomans didn't adopt tomatoes and bell peppers until the 18th century, and yet they are such an integral part of modern Turkish cuisine. So how could Persian cuisine stay the same until the 21st century, especially when there were in the midst of so many trade routes and and so many wars? ----- Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM) the persona formerly known as Anahita <the end>