Moghul-India-msg – 7/9/17

The culture and food of Moghul India.  The Moghuls (or Mogols) were a dynasty that ruled Northern India from 1526 into the 18th Century.

NOTE: See also the files: Mongols-msg, Scythians-msg, spices-msg, Islamic-bib, Islam-msg, silk-road-msg, turbans-msg, cotton-art, silk-msg, textiles-msg.

************************************************************************
NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

Thank you,
    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
************************************************************************

Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 10:53:08 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food
To: Cooks within the SCA sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

Craig Jones wrote:
> Was talking with a wonderful chap in my Barony just now over dinner and he
> expressed a desire to research and cook Moghul style.
> I vaguely remember someone mentioning a book that was recently published.
> Anyone remember what it was and the quality/authenticity of the recipes?
>
> Drakey.

I suspect that this might be the book you want--
The NI'Matnama Manuscript of the Sultans of Mandu: The Sultan's Book of Delights
<http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books- 
uk&field-author=Titley%2C%20Norah%20M./203-8301489-2310345>
by Norah M Titley
http://www.routledge-ny.com/shopping_cart/products/product_detail.asp? 
sku=&isbn=041535059X&parent_id=102&pc=

I have to preface this by saying that my husband came home
last December and dropped  The Ni'matnama Manuscript of the Sultans of Mandu
by Norah M. Titley into my lap. He reviewed something for CRC
and they sent him two books for free. So he picked up this
one for me. Never one to pass up a freebie, especially if it's subtitled
"A late fifteenth-century book of recipes written for the Sultan of Mandu, the Ni'matnama."
It's authentic.
Lots on oranges in it and sweets. It was a nice early holiday present.
A number of people on the list own it and the reviews tend to be positive.
There's some good stuff in it.
Is it worth buying? Yes and no. It's very expensive, so unless someone
is very into that area
I'd almost have to say no on a purchase. It's listed at $125 currently
in the USA. It's not turning up cheap on the used book market.
I'd say try for interlibrary loan and see if they can provide a copy.
The recipe section isn't that large. The plates take up most of the book. I'd say that most folks could do ok with the just a xeroxed recipe section, save the money on the purchase, and be quite happy.

Johnnae


Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 10:36:21 -0500
From: "Katherine Throckmorton" <kthrockmorton at lycos.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

  Drakey wrote:
> I vaguely remember someone mentioning a book that was recently published.
> Anyone remember what it was and the quality/authenticity of the recipes?

You are probably thinking of the Nimatanama of the Sultan of Madu,  
the details of which have already been posted.  Another reliable  
source for Moghul food is are the recipe-like things in the 'Ain-i- 
Akbari which can be found here:
http://persian.packhum.org/persian/pf?file=00702051&ct=49

which provide us with a total of thirty dishes.  The main limitation  
is that we are told what the dish is called and what goes into it,  
but not how it is cooked.

There is also a further discussion of the fruits and other foods  
available, but it is basically a list with prices.
http://persian.packhum.org/persian/pf?file=00702051&ct=0

-Katherine/Asma


Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 09:16:05 -0700
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I don't know about any recent books on Moghul cooking. The one source
I know of is the _Ain i Akbari_, a translation of which was published
a very long time ago. It has a list of dishes, with ingredients,
quantities, and no instructions. It also has instructions for
distilling arrack and making bread.
-- 
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com


Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 12:58:37 -0400
From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1 at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I acquired an excellent book on Moghul foods, etc. a little while
back..."The /Ni'matnama /Manuscript  of the Sultans of
Mandu"...otherwise known as the Sultan's Book of Delights.  It's not all
food, but does have a number of recipes in it.  It also has paintings
from the ms. which illustrate, among other things, cooking techniques.
I have thoroughly enjoyed it.

Kiri


Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 18:17:38 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

> Duriel said:
>> Not 'Mongol'...'Moghul'.  Persia/Afghanistan/India.  Lots of
>> cookbooks from there.
>
> When was this culture? Did it really cover Persia/Afghanistan, and I
> assume, parts of northwestern India? What effects did they have upon
> medieval Europe? Other than sitting astride some trade routes, so
> therefor either enhancing of inhibiting trade from the East?
>
> Stefan

Moghul (or Mogol) is a specific reference to the dynasty that ruled Northern
India from 1526 into the 18th Century.  The dynasty continued its existence
into the 19th Century as a British controlled monarchy.  Babur who founded
the dynasty was a Persian of Mongol descent from Genghis Khan on his
mother's side and Tamerlane on his father's.  He failed in the attempt to
retake and hold the ancestral empire (Tamerlane's) based in Samakand losing
Afganistan, Uzbekistan and a few other pieces of real estate.  He led his
men into Northern India.

Babur had no particular effect on Europe as his conquests come after the
Europeans began sailing to India and the East.  Tamerlane was a different
story, first fighting a war and then controlling a large stretch of the Silk
Road before the fall of Byzantium.  About 100 years later, the Uighurs began
a continuous conflict with the Chinese effectively closed off the Chinese
end of the Silk Road and giving impetus to the great Chinese trade fleets.

Bear


Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 03:17:08 +0200
From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Am Donnerstag, 8. Juni 2006 00:27 schrieb Stefan li Rous:
> When was this culture? Did it really cover Persia/Afghanistan, and I
> assume, parts of northwestern India? What effects did they have upon
> medieval Europe? Other than sitting astride some trade routes, so
> therefor either enhancing of inhibiting trade from the East?

Basically, the Mughal empoerors were responsible for a large part of the India
'myth' of omnipotent tyrants living in untold luxury, dispensing largesse
with an open hand and indulging their every whim. When the Europeans reached
India in larger numbers by sea, they were just in time to meet their empire
at its height, and that must have been quite a spectacle. They didn't quite
understand the political role of conspicuous consumption, but they certainly
were impressed. The Mughals were happy to trade, and by and large
disinterested in matters maritime, so it was a match made in heaven.

The Mughals were also instrumental to integrating much of northern India into
the mental sphere that considers itself 'India', though that process did not
get completed until the Raj, they created the role models for generations of
Indian princes, and they were largely responsible for crushing political
Hinduism (leading some influential Hindus to cast their lot with the
Europeans when the time came), militarising Sikhism, and developing the modus
vivendi between the religions that to this day obtains in the parts of India
where that works.

Last, but not least, they gave German its word for cheating, e.g. at games of
chance - 'mogeln' - derived from an Indian technique of cutting very thin
semiprecious stone slices to create the impression of large gems.

Giano


Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 19:05:11 -0500
From: "Katherine Throckmorton" <kthrockmorton at lycos.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

> When was this culture?

Depends on *where* you are talking about.  In Central Asia (modern  
Uzbekistan and Tajikistan) Moghul culture, which is in many ways a  
medly of Persian (although frequently Persian at one remove) and  
Mongol culture starts in the 14th century.  If one is speaking about  
the Moghul Empire, that starts in the early 16th century, after Babur  
conquers parts of what is now Afganistan, Pakistan and India.   
Usually when people are talking about "the Moghuls" they are talking  
about the 16th century and later.

> Did it really cover Persia/Afghanistan, and I
> assume, parts of northwestern India?

It didn't cover Persia, but the court culture had a strong Persian  
influence.  The precise boundaries of Mughal territory shifted around  
a fair amount, both during and after the SCA period. A decent summary  
of the territory involved is, Afganistan, and ever-increasing chunks  
of modern Pakistan, India and Bangaladesh.  These two maps may prove  
useful.
http://www.india-history.com/medival-india/mughal-empire.html
http://www.india-history.com/medival-india/mughal-empire.html

> What effects did they have upon
> medieval Europe? Other than sitting astride some trade routes, so
> therefor either enhancing of inhibiting trade from the East?

Mainly trade and trade goods, which is no little thing considering  
that many of the exploratory voyages of the 15th and 16th centuries  
were aimed at finding a direct route to India.  India was an  
important link in the spice trade.  India was also important in the  
gem and pearl trade, the Bay of Bengal was (and is) a important  
source of pearls, and during the SCA period all of the diamonds came  
from India.  India was also a major supplier of cotton fabric.   
During the 16th century the Moghuls were not the only players in this  
trade, they had competition from the Deccani Sultanates and the  
Vijayanagara Empire but they did manage to control a lot of it.
A number of Europeans came to trade and to "convert the heathen", in  
the 16th century there was a substantial Portugese presence in Goa  
and environs.  There were also several Europeans who took service in  
Akbar's court in various capacitites.
Finally, there is the fact that the SCA actually does a much better  
job of imitating the social structure of the Moghul court than any  
European model ;)

Katherine/Asma


Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 20:04:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Your Grace!

You really need to purchase a copy of the Ni'matnama Manuscript.  It is a 15th Century manuscript and even though it isn't as big as one would wish, it is a  
Treasure room of fascinating recipes.  It is fascinating to seen the relationship between this manuscript and the al-Baghdadi and the cross over foods.

I know we talked about Samosas on this list earlier and there are  
recipes in this manuscript for them.

You would do well to purchase a copy.

Just my 2 pfennig.

Huette

--- David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com> wrote:
> I don't know about any recent books on Moghul cooking. The one source
> I know of is the _Ain i Akbari_, a translation of which was published
> a very long time ago. It has a list of dishes, with ingredients,
> quantities, and no instructions. It also has instructions for
> distilling arrack and making bread.
> -- 
> David/Cariadoc
> www.daviddfriedman.com


Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 23:57:53 -0700
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Duriel wrote:
> Not 'Mongol'...'Moghul'.  Persia/Afghanistan/India.  Lots of
> cookbooks from there.

There are no SCA-period Afghan cookbooks that i know of, and only a
couple Indian ones. Other than the Ni'matnama, which has both Persian
and Indian qualities, i've heard rumors of a surviving Persian
cookbook, but if that's true, it hasn't been translated into any
Western European language to the best of my knowledge.
-- 
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita


Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 07:29:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: <tom.vincent at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Here's a site with all sorts of relevant content.
http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah/links-ME-cuisine.html

and another for Indian research
http://www.sonoma.edu/rpdc/nbisp/india/iresources.html

Duriel


Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 10:07:31 -0700
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Duriel wrote:
>> Not 'Mongol'...'Moghul'.  Persia/Afghanistan/India.  Lots of
>> cookbooks from there.

I had responded:
> There are no SCA-period Afghan cookbooks that i know of, and only a
> couple Indian ones. Other than the Ni'matnama, which has both Persian
> and Indian qualities, i've heard rumors of a surviving Persian
> cookbook, but if that's true, it hasn't been translated into any
> Western European language to the best of my knowledge.

Duriel then answered:
> Here's a site with all sorts of relevant content.
> http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah/links-ME-cuisine.html

There's actually very little relevant content on this page.

There are no links on this page (which happens to be mine :-) to
SCA-period Afghan or Persian recipes.

The only relevant link to Moghul Indian food is to the several
recipes Duke Cariadoc worked out from the work Ain-i-Akbari, already
mentioned previously in this thread.

> and another for Indian research
> http://www.sonoma.edu/rpdc/nbisp/india/iresources.html

I don't [have] much of anything about pre-17th century Moghul cooking on  
this page.
-- 
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita


Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 14:39:50 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"
	<adamantius.magister at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On Jun 8, 2006, at 1:07 PM, lilinah at earthlink.net wrote:
> They would need to be scholars of food history from before 1601, and
> they're pretty rare, since most Indians, like most American and
> Europeans, don't know much about food from over 400 years ago.
>
> It seems to me that you continue to suggest we look at modern
> cookbooks, which are almost always not relevant, when threads concern
> SCA-period historical cooking. I've got plenty of Persian, Afghan,
> and Indian cookbooks on my shelves, and most are modern and not
> relevant to the topic.

I was recently told about some controversy in my Kingdom in which a
Laurel recognized for her work in Persian studies announced in
connection with some local cook's modern Middle Eastern cooking that
modern ME cooking is fine for SCA use since Persian cooking has not
changed materially for 1000 years, and her correspondents in modern
Iran confirm this.

The guy who told me about all this is another Laurel who has
extensively studied the Persian culture in our period, but hasn't
done much of a study on food, and merely suspected that this claim
was utter sheepdip, without any hard evidence of same.

I got out a modern Persian cookbook and showed him an approximate
percentage of dishes prominently featuring ingredients the Persians
almost certainly could not have had access to 1000 years ago. I
pointed out that I couldn't be sure of the extent to which cooking
methods and styles had changed, but that the likelihood was that some
ancient, traditional methods had survived, and some had probably
changed per the same cultural and social forces that caused available
foodstuffs to change. Looking at Kitab al-Tabikh, which may not be
completely identifiable with the Persian cookery of its time, but
which appears to be Persian-influenced, at least, we find some pretty
significant differences in techniques and styles.

Adamantius


Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 13:22:47 -0700
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

G. Tacitus Adamantius wrote:
> I was recently told about some controversy in my Kingdom in which a
> Laurel recognized for her work in Persian studies announced in
> connection with some local cook's modern Middle Eastern cooking that
> modern ME cooking is fine for SCA use since Persian cooking has not
> changed materially for 1000 years, and her correspondents in modern
> Iran confirm this.

Aargh! Aargh! Aargh! (sound of hair being torn out).

I'm on quite a few Near and Middle Eastern oriented SCA e-lists. This
was the sort of thing i heard about garb back in the dark ages when i
joined up (7 years ago :-) People complained that it was too
difficult and too expensive to make period Near/Middle Eastern garb.
And besides, things hadn't changed (insert Carl Sagan voice) in
*thousands* of years (end Carl Sagan voice).

(and i found his intonation especially annoying when i was in labor
in the maternity ward and he was on TV. I switched to the World
Series. Much better)

> The guy who told me about all this is another Laurel who has
> extensively studied the Persian culture in our period, but hasn't
> done much of a study on food, and merely suspected that this claim
> was utter sheepdip, without any hard evidence of same.

Wow! Someone else who says "sheepdip" instead of a shorter word!

Well, this guy is absolutely correct. Yeah, yeah, i don't know of an
SCA period Persian cookbook, but looking through "period" Andalusi,
Egyptian, 'Abbasid, and Ottoman cookbooks and comparing the cuisine
to modern recipes, it's easy to see that are significant differences.
How'd this female get a Laurel?!? (don't answer. I know, i'm not
displaying "peer like qualities")

> I got out a modern Persian cookbook and showed him an approximate
> percentage of dishes prominently featuring ingredients the Persians
> almost certainly could not have had access to 1000 years ago. I
> pointed out that I couldn't be sure of the extent to which cooking
> methods and styles had changed, but that the likelihood was that some
> ancient, traditional methods had survived, and some had probably
> changed per the same cultural and social forces that caused available
> foodstuffs to change. Looking at Kitab al-Tabikh, which may not be
> completely identifiable with the Persian cookery of its time, but
> which appears to be Persian-influenced, at least, we find some pretty
> significant differences in techniques and styles.

Oh, yeah. So many of the dishes have Persian derived names and are
supposedly based on Persian recipes. This is also true of that
handful of 15th C. Ottoman recipes recently published - lots of
Persian influence.

Related, but tangential... when Ibn Battuta visited with Turkic
people in the 14th century, they eschewed sweet dishes. By the 16th
century, with the rise to power of the Ottomans, the Turks in
Istanbul had developed an enormous sweet tooth. And that's in less
than 200 years!

According to Yerasimos who translated those 15th c. Ottoman recipes,
the Ottomans didn't adopt tomatoes and bell peppers until the 18th
century, and yet they are such an integral part of modern Turkish
cuisine.

So how could Persian cuisine stay the same until the 21st century,
especially when there were in the midst of so many trade routes and
and so many wars?
-----
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita


Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 21:42:46 -0400
From: ranvaig at columbus.rr.com
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pakistan
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

The Nimatnama Manuscript Of The Sultans Of Mandu Book By Norah M
Titley ISBN 041535059X.

   It's a pretty book, it has a facimaly of manuscript in B&W at the
back (reading from the back like the original), many wonderful
illuminations in color, and the translated recipes.  The recipe
section is around 100 pages, and It costs over $100, so you might
want to ILL it, like I did.

I'm not aware of any other medieval Indian recipes in English.

There is a SCA India mailing list at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ 
SCA_India/

Ranvaig


Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 02:10:16 -0500
From: "Katherine Throckmorton" <kthrockmorton at lycos.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pakistan
To: hlaislinn at earthlink.net,	"Cooks within the SCA"
	<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Aislinn wrote:
> Are there any medieval manuscripts for her area [India and Pakistan] of the 
> world I can introduce her to?

Other than the _Nimitanama_ the only thing that I'm aware of, are the  
recipie-like things in the 'Ain-i-Akbari.  I call them recipie like  
things because they were compiled by a non-cook and although they  
give a complete list of ingredients it dosen't tell you how to cook  
the dish.  Your friend can probobly make some pretty good guesses  
about how to put the ingredients together.
The 'Ain-i-Akbari is on the web here:
http://persian.packhum.org/persian/pf?file=00702051&ct=0
'Ains 23-29 relate to food.

-Katherine


Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 15:43:01 -0500
From: "Katherine Throckmorton" <kthrockmorton at lycos.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pakistan
To: hlaislinn at earthlink.net,	"Cooks within the SCA"
	<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Aislinn wrote:
> Thank you for this, it is a fascinating manuscript.

You are most welcome!  I really enjoy it, it can be frustratingly  
vague in places but it is still a wonderful resource.  I mean, where  
else can you find out what the annual salary of an assistant cheetah  
keeper was in 16th century Delhi? :)

One thing that really excites/annoys me is that there origionally the  
'Ain-i-Akbari was *illustrated*, but as far as I know no facsimile  
copy has been published or is in the works.  I've seen a few plates  
reproduced, but that is it.

-Katherine


Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 17:56:46 -0700
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Partial Mughal Cookbook
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

At 11:03 AM -0500 23/06/06, on a different list than this one, a girl
named Sue wrote:
> Here is a book I have seen for sale but have not bought yet -
> "Nuskha-e-Shahjahani : Pulaos from the Royal Kitchen of Shah Jahan"
> by Salma Husain.  Shah Jahan ruled from 1628 - 1658, so it is out
> of period slightly.  I think most copies are in India or Britain which
> means high shipping costs.  But it sounds very interesting.

I finally went and ordered it on 11 July and it was shipped on 12
July. It took less time to get here than i
thought it would to get here from India - it just arrived today.

The author says she translated it from the original Persian in which
it was written. She also says that the recipes in this book are
merely a selection from a larger book (darn, i want the whole thing
:-)

As published, every recipe is set up in two columns. There is a list
of ingredients and quantities on one side of the page, and organized
and orderly cooking instructions on the other. The author mentions
that the original recipes give measurements and are very detailed.
The quantities are given in period measurements, but the directions
seem rather modern, although perhaps it's only a few of her word
choices that make it seem modern (like "saute" and "par-boil"). So i
can't tell if these are close to the originals or merely "inspired
by" her translation of them.

Sigh. So hard to tell... I guess i'll assume that they are accurate
and it is just the author's choice of some modern feeling words here
and there that is giving me doubts.

The recipes do look tasty. And even if the author modernized them a
little, they're still closer to period recipes than a modern Mughal
or Persian cookbook.

I just wish i had ALL the recipes from the old cookbook!
---
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita


Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 19:01:49 -0700
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Partial Mughal Cookbook
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Hey! I found a review of that book i just got:
Nuskha-e-Shahjahani: Pulaos from the Royal Kitchen of Shah Jahan
translated by Salma Husain.
Rupa & Co., New Delhi.
Pages 71.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040620/spectrum/book5.htm

Here the reviewer complains about the odd ingredients and the sketchy
instructions. I guess i'm just so used to looking at period recipes
that these looked very complete to me.

And i guess these really look "period" to the mundane cook :-)
-- 
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita


Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 09:53:25 -0500
From: "Elaine Koogler" <kiridono at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Hindu Recipe?
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

A sweet that I ran across researching recipes for my ME feast, though
Mughal, is from India (and IIRC) is actually period...don't have the source
here at work.  I haven't tried it yet, but it sounds yummy...dried apricots
stuffed with marzipan.  Very simple...and should be completely vegetarian.
Also, there is a vegetarian version of samosas (also period, by the bye)
that's very tasty.  It's a little more complicated to prepare, but you could
use the ready-made pie dough (Pillbury makes a very good one).  It is a
savory, but most folks, even those not at all adventurous, seem to like it.
I don't have the recipe here,  but you could "google" samosas and find one
online.

Kiri

On 11/15/06, CLdyroz at aol.com <CLdyroz at aol.com> wrote:
>
> Well, it is time to start the Holiday Office Parties.
> My office is doing their Thanksgiving get-together next Tuesday.
> We have a new guy in the office who is of Indian extraction and  
> Hindu by faith.
> That means that he is a strict vegetarian...
> does anyone know of a dish or
> a source, where I can find a fairly easy Hindu/Indian dish, that would also
> work for an ethnically mixed office? Possibly a sweet? (that would go
> better with this crowd then a curry)
>
> Helen


Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 13:27:02 -0500
From: "Elaine Koogler" <kiridono at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Stuffed apricots?
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I can't even claim credit for it.  I think it may have come from a booklet
on a Mughal feast published by the Madrone Cooks' Guild...I'd have to check,
but I think that's where I saw it.

Kiri

On 11/16/06, Georgia Foster <jo_foster81 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Marzipan stuffed apricots would be JUST THE THING for our office Goodies
> day.  Easy, elegant, and not too expensive.  May get a box of cloves and
> stick a clove in the top of each to dress it up even more.

> Malkin
> Otherhill
> Artemisia


Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 00:46:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Indian dinner at Pennsic?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

--- ranvaig at columbus.rr.com wrote:

>>>   I'm camping with Little India, who are doing their Biyari, period
>>> Indian dinner on Tues night.
>>
>> Do you know what their sources are? Period Indian cookbooks are a bit
>> scarce, although there are, of course, food references in the
>> literature.
>
> I've been asked research some recipes from the Nimatnama.   Someone  
> else is doing some research
> too, and I don't know what sources she is using.  I helped cook  
> three years ago, I saw a copy of
> the recipes when we were cooking, but was not able to get a copy  
> for myself.  The food was very
> good and seemed appropriate, but I really don't know how close to  
> the source they were.  If you
> have any suggestions I'll share them with the lady who is charge.
>
> Ranvaig

Hi Ranvaig!

I am not His Grace, but one of the big things to remember is that capsicum peppers didn't arrive in India until just after 1600.  So any curry you make should be spiced with long pepper, which was native and not with capsicum peppers.

Here is a recipe that I have had success with:

Lamb Samosas

> From the Sultan's Book of Delights (late fifteenth century)

Another kind of Ghiyath Shahi's samosas: take finely minced deer meat  
and flavour ghee with
fenugreek and, having mixed the mince with saffron, put it in the  
ghee.  Roast salt and cumin
together.  Having added cumin, cloves, coriander and a quarter of a  
ratti of musk to the mince,
cook it well.  Put half of the minced onion and a quarter of the  
minced dry ginger into the
meat.  When it has become well-cooked, put in rosewater.  Take it off  
and stuff the samosas.
Make a hole in the samosa with a stick and fry it in sweet-smelling  
ghee and serve it (when)
tender.  By the same method of any kind of meat that is desired, can  
be made.

Ingredients:

Filling:

1 lbs ground lamb
1 tbsp ghee or clarified butter
1 tsp ground fenugreek
1/4 tsp saffron
1 tsp salt
1 tsp cumin
1 tsp cloves
1 tsp coriander
1 large sweet onion, minced [1 cup approx.]
1/4 cup minced fresh ginger
1 tbsp rose water

Put ghee in a large frying pan and add fenugreek and saffron,  
stirring for a few minutes.  Add
lamb and start to brown. Add salt, cumin, cloves, coriander onion and  
ginger, stirring until the
meat is brown and fragrant.  Add rose water and remove from heat.

Pastry:

Ingredients:

2 cups unbleached flour
3/4 tsp salt
1 1/2 tbsp ghee or clarified butter
1/2 to 3/4 cup water

Sift flour and salt together. Make a well in the center of the  
mixture and quickly pour in ghee
and water. Stir briskly until combined, gradually adding more water  
if necessary. You should aim
for a slightly moist dough that sticks together. On a lightly floured  
surface, knead dough for 10
minutes until smooth and elastic, cover with damp towel.

Assembly:

To assemble samosa, break off pieces of dough (leaving what's left  
under the towel) and shape into
balls. Roll each ball into a circle about 1/10 of an inch thick and 5  
inches across. Cut the
circle in half. In one side put filling, fold half of the half circle  
over to make a triangle.
Seal by brushing a bit of water along the edges and pinching it  
together with your finger.  Heat 2
inches ghee in a skillet or pan to 375 degrees. Put in samosas and  
let it fry to a golden brown on
each side. Then drain on cloth or paper towel and eat.

Note:  I didn't experiment with the roasting cumin and salt  
together.  But I added both to the
filling.  I didn't have any musk to add and couldn't think of an  
adequate substitute, so I left it
out.  I followed a modern Indian recipe for the pastry since the  
original was so vague.

Huette


Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 00:01:40 -0700
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Indian dinner at Pennsic?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

>>>   I'm camping with Little India, who are doing their Biyari, period
>>> Indian dinner on Tues night.
>>
>> Do you know what their sources are? Period Indian cookbooks are a bit
>> scarce, although there are, of course, food references in the
>> literature.
>
> I've been asked research some recipes from the Nimatnama.   Someone
> else is doing some research too, and I don't know what sources she
> is using.  I helped cook three years ago, I saw a copy of the
> recipes when we were cooking, but was not able to get a copy for
> myself.  The food was very good and seemed appropriate, but I really
> don't know how close to the source they were.  If you have any
> suggestions I'll share them with the lady who is charge.

The one source I know is the _Akbarnama_. It has ingredient lists
for, I think, thirty dishes--quantities but no instructions, the
opposite of the usual medieval recipe. It also has instructions for
making bread and for distilling arrack.

If they have other primary sources, it would be worth posting
something about them here. At one point I thought I was on the trail
of one but I never managed to locate it, and it was a long time ago.
-- 
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com


Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 12:42:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Indian dinner at Pennsic?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Hi Cariadoc?

Are you not familiar with the Nimatnama?  I have re-read your post here several times and I can't tell if you have seen this book.  It is 15th Century Mughal  
from the sultanate of Mandu. If you don't have it, it is well worth the price and has just been published in the last two years.  Here is the LC record for it:

The Ni&#699;matna&#772;ma manuscript of the sultans of Mandu : the  
Sultan?s book of delights /
translated by Norah M. Titley.  London ; New York : RoutledgeCurzon, 2005.
xx, 121 p., [516] p. of plates : ill. (some col.) ; 25 cm.
ISBN: 041535059X (cloth)
  Ni&#699;matna&#772;mah-yi Na&#772;s&#803;iruddi&#772;n  
Sha&#772;hi&#772;--Illustrations.
  Cookery--India--Ma&#772;ndu--Early works to 1800.
  Sultans in art--Early works to 1800.
  Manuscripts, Urdu--India--Ma&#772;ndu--Facsimiles.
  Illumination of books and manuscripts, Indic--India--Ma&#772;ndu-- 
Early works to 1800.
  Ma&#772;ndu (India)--Court and courtiers--Food--Early works to 1800.

Thank you for mentioning the Akbarnama.  I have found a 3 vol. copy  
in English for $45 + the cost
of shipping from India.  It would be interesting to compare the Akbar  
list with the Ni'mat recipes and see if there are any cross-overs.

Huette


--- David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com> wrote:

>>>>   I'm camping with Little India, who are doing their Biyari, period
>>>> Indian dinner on Tues night.
>>>
>>> Do you know what their sources are? Period Indian cookbooks are a bit
>>> scarce, although there are, of course, food references in the
>>> literature.
>>
>> I've been asked research some recipes from the Nimatnama.   Someone
>> else is doing some research too, and I don't know what sources she
>> is using.  I helped cook three years ago, I saw a copy of the
>> recipes when we were cooking, but was not able to get a copy for
>> myself.  The food was very good and seemed appropriate, but I really
>> don't know how close to the source they were.  If you have any
>> suggestions I'll share them with the lady who is charge.
>
> The one source I know is the _Akbarnama_. It has ingredient lists
> for, I think, thirty dishes--quantities but no instructions, the
> opposite of the usual medieval recipe. It also has instructions for
> making bread and for distilling arrack.
>
> If they have other primary sources, it would be worth posting
> something about them here. At one point I thought I was on the trail
> of one but I never managed to locate it, and it was a long time ago.
> -- 
> David/Cariadoc
> www.daviddfriedman.com


Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 18:20:27 -0400
From: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Indian dinner at Pennsic?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Huette von Ahrens wrote:
> Thank you for mentioning the Akbarnama.  I have found a 3 vol. copy  
> in English for $45 + the cost
> of shipping from India.  It would be interesting to compare the  
> Akbar list with the Ni'mat recipes and see if there are any cross-overs.

Before you get out the credit card, you might want to look at the webbed
version here:
http://persian.packhum.org/persian/index.jsp?serv=pf&file=00702051&ct=49
-- 
Brighid ni Chiarain
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom


Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 00:03:03 -0400
From: ranvaig at columbus.rr.com
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Indian dinner at Pennsic?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

>> Hi Cariadoc?
>>
>> Are you not familiar with the Nimatnama?
>
> Haven't seen it. Sounds interesting. How much of
> a cookbook is it--in terms of number of recipes
> and information?
>
> On Amazon it's very expensive. I'll have to check
> if my school's library has it.

There are about 100 pages of translated recipes for food, drink,  
perfume and medicine.  There are quite a few redundancies, and some  
omissions, but its a great resource.  My only problem is that I wish  
they gave the untranslated word for some of the dishes and  
ingredients.  Does it REALLY say "samosa" or is that a translation?   
It includes a reproduction of the original, so one could transcribe  
it oneself.  There is a black and white reproduction of the whole  
book, and the many illustrations are reproduced in color.  It's  
expensive, but its a great book.  It is available from ILL, if you  
want to see it before you purchase.

http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00routesdata/1400_1499/ 
mandu/nimatnama/nimatnama.html

Ranvaig


Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 02:31:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Indian dinner at Pennsic?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

> Thank you for mentioning the Akbarnama.  I have
> found a 3 vol. copy in English for $45 + the cost
> of shipping from India.  It would be interesting
> to compare the Akbar list with the Ni'mat
> recipes and see if there are any cross-overs.
>
> Huette

It isn't a huge book, in terms of the actual recipes.  121 pages of the translations and 10 pages of introduction and glossary.  Most of the rest of the  
actual book is a facsimile of the original manuscript, in black and white, 516 pages worth.  If you could read the script, you would be able to compare the original with the translation.

There is an interesting center section with all of the illustrations grouped together and in color, which gives you interesting kitchen, dining and outdoor  
scenes and clothing of that region and era.  But compared to the Medieval Arabic Cookery book, it is very small and with comparatively little commentary. 

However, just getting period Indian recipes translated into English, to me, is worth the purchase price.  But YMMV.

Huette


Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 10:02:23 -0700
From: Lilinah <lilinah at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Indian dinner at Pennsic?
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Here's what i've found so far for SCA-period Indian cookbooks, in
chronological order. Clearly there's more written about food in
Indian texts, but it's not an area i've been researching, so i
haven't collected a list of sources.

---------------------

(1.) late 15th-early 16th C. Persian, Moghul, and Indian

The Ni'matna'ma Manuscript of the Sultans of Mandu: The Sultan's Book
of Delights
translated by Norah M. Titley
RoutledgeCurzon
Abingdon, Oxon, UK: 2005
ISBN 0-415-35059-X

We've discussed the Ni'matna'ma on this list a number of times since
the publication if Titley's translation about 1-1/2 years ago.

The Ni'matna'ma is a late 15th and early 16th C. Moghul recipe and
medicinal book, written in Urdu.

It is a unique book, in the TRUE sense of the word - there is only
one manuscript and no copies in existence, and it is in the Oriental
and India Office Collections of the British Library (BL. Persian
149). The book was compiled between 1495 and 1505. It contains
recipes for food, betel, medicinals, aphrodisiacs, perfumes, and
more, written for Ghiyath Shahi, Sultan of Mandu (now Madhya
Pradesh), from 1469-1500, and continued by his successor, his son
Nasir Shah. It reflects Moghul culture that was highly influenced by
Persia.

It was illustrated with fifty miniatures, the first few painted in a
distinctive Shiraz (Southern Iranian) style by imported Persian
artists, but increasingly the later illustrations show the indigenous
styles of book painting from Central and Western India.

Titley's scholarly publication includes a complete translation with
notes and a complete reproduction of the original book in
photographic plates. Because facsimile and the color plates, it costs
over $100 US, so i recommend ILL'ing it, too. It is fun to read -
although most of the aphrodisiacs are for males.

I hesitate to bring my copy to Pennsic. Perhaps there's some time in
the next month and a half when i could show you my copy.

---------------------

(2.) Late 16th C. Persian, Moghul, and Indian

Ain-i Akbari
part of the Akbarnamah
by Shaikh Abu al-Fazl ibn Mubarak
circa 1590

Ain-i Akbari, the third volume of the Akbarnamah, was written by
Shaikh Abu al-Fazl ibn Mubarak, who was Akbar's minister and friend.
It was written in Persian. This volume in particular, is an account
of Mughal India, especially Akbar's court, in the late 16th Century.
It contains information regarding Akbar's reign. Apparently it isn't
always completely accurate, but it helps in understanding of its
time. It catalogues facts for which, in modern times, we would turn
to administration reports, statistical compilations, or gazetteers.
It is essentially the Administration Report and Statistical Return of
his government in about 1590 CE.

Bewsides a section with recipes, there are other sections on
foodstuffs, for example listing foods and fresh produce available for
sale in marketplaces and their appropriate prices. It's clear they
were being eaten, although since some of these foods are not included
in the recipes, we don't exactly know what to do with them,

The translation into English by H. Blochmann 1873, and completed by
Colonel H. S. Jarrett in 1907, has been made available on-line by The
Packard Humanities Institute. Here's the index for Volume 1 (of 3) of
the Ain-i Akbari, which has the section with recipes, as well as
other sections that have food info...
http://persian.packhum.org/persian/pf?file=00702051&ct=0

---------------------

(3.) Early 17th C. Moghul

Nuskha-e-Shahjahani: Pulaos from the Royal Kitchen of Shah Jahan
translated by Salma Husain
Rupa & Co., New Delhi: 2004
ISBN 81-7167-989-7

Shah Jahan ruled from 1628-1658, so if the manuscript is from his
reign, it is somewhat out of period. Unfortunately this modern
publication is frustrating from a scholarly point of view. The
author's scantily historical intro raises more questions than it
answers. While Husain says she has translated the recipes into
English from the original Persian language manuscript, she never
mentions the provenance or even date of the original manuscript, nor
does she say where this manuscript currently is. Thus one cannot
verify her claims.

The modern publication includes only 70 rice-based savory and sweet
recipes, merely a selection from the original cookbook. There are no
purely vegetable or fruit recipes. It has pulaos, quboolis, and
kichdis - which are all what we modern folks would consider "main
dishes", as well as a couple rice based sweet dishes, one which
interestingly show up in late 15th C. and 16th C. Ottoman feasts.

The recipes are fairly detailed, and at first i thought the author
had modernized them. But i was reading some Indian boards on the net
and it became clear from comments posted there by actual modern
Indians that these recipes really were not modern - both the
measurements and some of the cooking methods - and the dishes were
unfamiliar or quite different from modern versions. So i became more
certain that these are not 20th C. recipes, and probably not late
19th C. They might not be from a 17th C. manuscript, though, but i
have no way to check this because of the limited information from
Husain. And there's always the possibility that the author invented
them herself and made them seem old.

I just wish the book had two things:
1. more information about the original manuscript;
2. more of the original manuscript's recipes (even if they aren't SCA- 
period)!
-- 
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita


Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 14:40:30 -0400
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcarrollmann at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Musing on Mongol
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 2:18 PM, Lilinah <lilinah at earthlink.net> wrote:
<<< However, this makes me think that having a course of "fringe" foods might
work, or one or two "fringe" dishes in each course - both purely Arabic and
purely Chinese, and maybe a Turkish recipe or two - might help diversify the
food for non-meat eaters.
--
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM) >>>

It's 16th century, but the Ain i Akbari has recipes from Mughal India,
including vegetarian recipes.
http://persian.packhum.org/persian/pf?file=00702051&ct=0
Book 1, Chapter 24.
-- 
Brighid ni Chiarain
My NEW email is rcarrollmann at gmail.com


Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 08:10:36 -0500
From: Elaine Koogler <kiridono at gmail.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Middle Eastern Food

I do have a book that I purchased from India that contains recipes for
pulaos, from "...the kitchens of Shah Jahan".  The only problem is that, in
addition to their being slightly out of period, and while the history
appears to be pretty accurate, there is no source given for any of the
recipes.  However, they do describe the way the dishes were actually
prepared in period, which I found to be very interesting.  The name of the
book is "Nuskha-e-Shahjahani" and the translator is Salma Husain, who also
wrote the introduction.  Supposedly this is from an original Persian
manuscript...so the attribution appears to be a little weird unless stuff
from the Court of Shah Jahan was written in Persian!

Kiri

On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 8:46 PM, David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>wrote:
<<< Actually, I remembered there had been some discussion of whether it was or
wasn't Mughal but not the final conclusion, and was playing safe by
including it. Brain cells misfiring due to age.

The obvious next question is whether whoever volunteered for Mughal Indian
has sources other than the _Ain i Akbari_, or, alternatively, believes that
the Ni'matnama is Mughal.

Cariadoc >>>


Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 16:52:09 -0800
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Middle Eastern Food

kiri wrote:
<<< I do have a book that I purchased from India that contains recipes for
pulaos, from "...the kitchens of Shah Jahan".  The only problem is that, in
addition to their being slightly out of period, and while the history
appears to be pretty accurate, there is no source given for any of the
recipes.  However, they do describe the way the dishes were actually
prepared in period, which I found to be very interesting.  The name of the
book is "Nuskha-e-Shahjahani" and the translator is Salma Husain, who also
wrote the introduction.  Supposedly this is from an original Persian
manuscript...so the attribution appears to be a little weird unless stuff
from the Court of Shah Jahan was written in Persian! >>>

I got this book some years ago. I commented upon it on my website:
http://home.earthlink.net/~al-tabbakhah/Misc_ME_Food/MECookbooks.html#Shahjahani

--- Begin Quote ---
Nuskha-e-Shahjahani : Pulaos from the Royal Kitchen of Shah Jahan
translated by Salma Husain
Rupa & Co.: New Delhi, 2004
ISBN 81-7167-989-7

Shah Jahan ruled from 1628-1658, so if it is from his reign, it is 
slightly out of period for the SCA. Unfortunately, the author gives 
only a scantily historical introduction, one that raises more 
questions than it answers, in which she never mentions the provenance 
or even date of the actual manuscript, although she does state that 
it is written in Persian.

[She says] Her book includes merely a selection from the cookbook, 
only 70 rice-based savory and sweet recipes. It only has pulaos, 
quboolis, and kichdis - which are all what we modern folks would 
consider "main dishes". No purely vegetable or fruit recipes and only 
a couple rice based "desserts" (one which interestingly show up in 
late 15th C. and 16th C. Ottoman feasts)
[and which the Ottomans admit is of Persian origin]

I just wish the book had two things:
1. more information about the manuscript;
2. more of the original manuscript's recipes!
--- End Quote ---

Scholars who have read those elusive early Safavid cookbooks point 
out rice dishes make up the majority or the entirety of their 
recipes. So these could be of Persian origin. Still searching for my 
copy of those two books for a translation experiment, for 
verification...
-- 
Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
the persona formerly known as Anahita


From: Kazimierz Verkmastare <kaz at NOGY.NET>
Date: January 23, 2010 12:50:06 AM CST
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] SCA period Indian culture instruments?...

The most common stringed instruments you will find pre-1600 in India, mainly in the North, are the rabab and it's descendants, the early Sitar, and the Sarod in it's earliest forms.  Many of these were fully developed in Pakistan and neighboring regions before moving into India late in our period (except the Sitar, it is earlier but it is not known how much).

One of the indigenous instruments, not as common but not rare, is the yazh (YAZH) which was sort of a double-bodied instrument - it had a gourd-shaped resonator or soundbox at both ends of a fingerboard and was played with one gourd off the lap and the other over the shoulder.  It developed at the end of SCA period into one of the many types of instrument now called veena when it lost one resonator.

It is widely unknown the dates of the pungi (probably not a native Indian instrument, more likely developed farther into Asia and brought to India), the snake charmer's shawm/oboe, but it is possible that the Shehnai, a 4 reed oboe-type instrument, developed as a medieval court instrument in Northern India using the pungi as a model.  It is less 'irritating' than the pungi and was used for secular and religious music, where the pungi was mainly used for sacred rituals involving snakes.

Interesting enough, the lyre, which was popular in almost all cultures sometime during the SCA period, is actually at it's height of popularity in India in current times, and probably was not even known there until the late 19th century.  There is a fairly large disconnect between the development of musical instruments in the rest of the known world and the development of instruments in India.

These are instruments I have stumbled upon in my research of the medieval instruments I build.  I really don't have an interest in pursuing that geography of instruments at this time, but I do try to collect all the reliable information I stumble upon.

This is far from a complete list, but I have only included those instruments that are almost certainly traceable in early form back to pre-17th century India.  There are many other instruments in the chordophone and membranophone family that have less certain pedigrees but are commonly known as 'classical' Indian instruments nonetheless, but a bunch of these, no matter how primitive the look or sound, are probably inventions of the last 150 years or less.

Hope this helps some

Kaz
very amateur luthier

<the end>
Edited by Mark S. Harris	Moghul-India-msg	Page 2 of 22