Moghuls-msg

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Moghul-India-msg – 7/9/17

The culture and food of Moghul India. The Moghuls (or Mogols) were a dynasty that ruled Northern India from 1526 into the 18th Century.

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NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

Thank you,

Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous

Stefan at florilegium.org

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Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 10:53:08 -0400

From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food

To: Cooks within the SCA sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

Craig Jones wrote:

> Was talking with a wonderful chap in my Barony just now over dinner and he

> expressed a desire to research and cook Moghul style.

> I vaguely remember someone mentioning a book that was recently published.

> Anyone remember what it was and the quality/authenticity of the recipes?

> Drakey.

I suspect that this might be the book you want--

The NI'Matnama Manuscript of the Sultans of Mandu: The Sultan's Book of Delights

<http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books-

uk&field-author=Titley%2C%20Norah%20M./203-8301489-2310345>

by Norah M Titley

http://www.routledge-ny.com/shopping_cart/products/product_detail.asp?

sku=&isbn=041535059X&parent_id=102&pc=

I have to preface this by saying that my husband came home

last December and dropped The Ni'matnama Manuscript of the Sultans of Mandu

by Norah M. Titley into my lap. He reviewed something for CRC

and they sent him two books for free. So he picked up this

one for me. Never one to pass up a freebie, especially if it's subtitled

"A late fifteenth-century book of recipes written for the Sultan of Mandu, the Ni'matnama."

It's authentic.

Lots on oranges in it and sweets. It was a nice early holiday present.

A number of people on the list own it and the reviews tend to be positive.

There's some good stuff in it.

Is it worth buying? Yes and no. It's very expensive, so unless someone

is very into that area

I'd almost have to say no on a purchase. It's listed at $125 currently

in the USA. It's not turning up cheap on the used book market.

I'd say try for interlibrary loan and see if they can provide a copy.

The recipe section isn't that large. The plates take up most of the book. I'd say that most folks could do ok with the just a xeroxed recipe section, save the money on the purchase, and be quite happy.

Johnnae

Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 10:36:21 -0500

From: "Katherine Throckmorton" <kthrockmorton at lycos.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Drakey wrote:

> I vaguely remember someone mentioning a book that was recently published.

> Anyone remember what it was and the quality/authenticity of the recipes?

You are probably thinking of the Nimatanama of the Sultan of Madu,

the details of which have already been posted. Another reliable

source for Moghul food is are the recipe-like things in the 'Ain-i-

Akbari which can be found here:

http://persian.packhum.org/persian/pf?file=00702051&;ct=49

which provide us with a total of thirty dishes. The main limitation

is that we are told what the dish is called and what goes into it,

but not how it is cooked.

There is also a further discussion of the fruits and other foods

available, but it is basically a list with prices.

http://persian.packhum.org/persian/pf?file=00702051&;ct=0

-Katherine/Asma

Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 09:16:05 -0700

From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I don't know about any recent books on Moghul cooking. The one source

I know of is the _Ain i Akbari_, a translation of which was published

a very long time ago. It has a list of dishes, with ingredients,

quantities, and no instructions. It also has instructions for

distilling arrack and making bread.

David/Cariadoc

www.daviddfriedman.com

Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 12:58:37 -0400

From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1 at comcast.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I acquired an excellent book on Moghul foods, etc. a little while

back..."The /Ni'matnama /Manuscript of the Sultans of

Mandu"...otherwise known as the Sultan's Book of Delights. It's not all

food, but does have a number of recipes in it. It also has paintings

from the ms. which illustrate, among other things, cooking techniques.

I have thoroughly enjoyed it.

Kiri

Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 18:17:38 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

> Duriel said:

>> Not 'Mongol'...'Moghul'. Persia/Afghanistan/India. Lots of

>> cookbooks from there.

> When was this culture? Did it really cover Persia/Afghanistan, and I

> assume, parts of northwestern India? What effects did they have upon

> medieval Europe? Other than sitting astride some trade routes, so

> therefor either enhancing of inhibiting trade from the East?

> Stefan

Moghul (or Mogol) is a specific reference to the dynasty that ruled Northern

India from 1526 into the 18th Century. The dynasty continued its existence

into the 19th Century as a British controlled monarchy. Babur who founded

the dynasty was a Persian of Mongol descent from Genghis Khan on his

mother's side and Tamerlane on his father's. He failed in the attempt to

retake and hold the ancestral empire (Tamerlane's) based in Samakand losing

Afganistan, Uzbekistan and a few other pieces of real estate. He led his

men into Northern India.

Babur had no particular effect on Europe as his conquests come after the

Europeans began sailing to India and the East. Tamerlane was a different

story, first fighting a war and then controlling a large stretch of the Silk

Road before the fall of Byzantium. About 100 years later, the Uighurs began

a continuous conflict with the Chinese effectively closed off the Chinese

end of the Silk Road and giving impetus to the great Chinese trade fleets.

Bear

Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 03:17:08 +0200

From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Am Donnerstag, 8. Juni 2006 00:27 schrieb Stefan li Rous:

> When was this culture? Did it really cover Persia/Afghanistan, and I

> assume, parts of northwestern India? What effects did they have upon

> medieval Europe? Other than sitting astride some trade routes, so

> therefor either enhancing of inhibiting trade from the East?

Basically, the Mughal empoerors were responsible for a large part of the India

'myth' of omnipotent tyrants living in untold luxury, dispensing largesse

with an open hand and indulging their every whim. When the Europeans reached

India in larger numbers by sea, they were just in time to meet their empire

at its height, and that must have been quite a spectacle. They didn't quite

understand the political role of conspicuous consumption, but they certainly

were impressed. The Mughals were happy to trade, and by and large

disinterested in matters maritime, so it was a match made in heaven.

The Mughals were also instrumental to integrating much of northern India into

the mental sphere that considers itself 'India', though that process did not

get completed until the Raj, they created the role models for generations of

Indian princes, and they were largely responsible for crushing political

Hinduism (leading some influential Hindus to cast their lot with the

Europeans when the time came), militarising Sikhism, and developing the modus

vivendi between the religions that to this day obtains in the parts of India

where that works.

Last, but not least, they gave German its word for cheating, e.g. at games of

chance - 'mogeln' - derived from an Indian technique of cutting very thin

semiprecious stone slices to create the impression of large gems.

Giano

Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 19:05:11 -0500

From: "Katherine Throckmorton" <kthrockmorton at lycos.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

> When was this culture?

Depends on *where* you are talking about. In Central Asia (modern

Uzbekistan and Tajikistan) Moghul culture, which is in many ways a

medly of Persian (although frequently Persian at one remove) and

Mongol culture starts in the 14th century. If one is speaking about

the Moghul Empire, that starts in the early 16th century, after Babur

conquers parts of what is now Afganistan, Pakistan and India.

Usually when people are talking about "the Moghuls" they are talking

about the 16th century and later.

> Did it really cover Persia/Afghanistan, and I

> assume, parts of northwestern India?

It didn't cover Persia, but the court culture had a strong Persian

influence. The precise boundaries of Mughal territory shifted around

a fair amount, both during and after the SCA period. A decent summary

of the territory involved is, Afganistan, and ever-increasing chunks

of modern Pakistan, India and Bangaladesh. These two maps may prove

useful.

http://www.india-history.com/medival-india/mughal-empire.html

> What effects did they have upon

> medieval Europe? Other than sitting astride some trade routes, so

> therefor either enhancing of inhibiting trade from the East?

Mainly trade and trade goods, which is no little thing considering

that many of the exploratory voyages of the 15th and 16th centuries

were aimed at finding a direct route to India. India was an

important link in the spice trade. India was also important in the

gem and pearl trade, the Bay of Bengal was (and is) a important

source of pearls, and during the SCA period all of the diamonds came

from India. India was also a major supplier of cotton fabric.

During the 16th century the Moghuls were not the only players in this

trade, they had competition from the Deccani Sultanates and the

Vijayanagara Empire but they did manage to control a lot of it.

A number of Europeans came to trade and to "convert the heathen", in

the 16th century there was a substantial Portugese presence in Goa

and environs. There were also several Europeans who took service in

Akbar's court in various capacitites.

Finally, there is the fact that the SCA actually does a much better

job of imitating the social structure of the Moghul court than any

European model ;)

Katherine/Asma

Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 20:04:51 -0700 (PDT)

From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Your Grace!

You really need to purchase a copy of the Ni'matnama Manuscript. It is a 15th Century manuscript and even though it isn't as big as one would wish, it is a

Treasure room of fascinating recipes. It is fascinating to seen the relationship between this manuscript and the al-Baghdadi and the cross over foods.

I know we talked about Samosas on this list earlier and there are

recipes in this manuscript for them.

You would do well to purchase a copy.

Just my 2 pfennig.

Huette

--- David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com> wrote:

> I don't know about any recent books on Moghul cooking. The one source

> I know of is the _Ain i Akbari_, a translation of which was published

> a very long time ago. It has a list of dishes, with ingredients,

> quantities, and no instructions. It also has instructions for

> distilling arrack and making bread.

> --

> David/Cariadoc

> www.daviddfriedman.com

Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 23:57:53 -0700

From: lilinah at earthlink.net

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Duriel wrote:

> Not 'Mongol'...'Moghul'. Persia/Afghanistan/India. Lots of

> cookbooks from there.

There are no SCA-period Afghan cookbooks that i know of, and only a

couple Indian ones. Other than the Ni'matnama, which has both Persian

and Indian qualities, i've heard rumors of a surviving Persian

cookbook, but if that's true, it hasn't been translated into any

Western European language to the best of my knowledge.

Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)

the persona formerly known as Anahita

Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 07:29:40 -0700 (PDT)

From: <tom.vincent at yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Here's a site with all sorts of relevant content.

http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah/links-ME-cuisine.html

and another for Indian research

http://www.sonoma.edu/rpdc/nbisp/india/iresources.html

Duriel

Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 10:07:31 -0700

From: lilinah at earthlink.net

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Duriel wrote:

>> Not 'Mongol'...'Moghul'. Persia/Afghanistan/India. Lots of

>> cookbooks from there.

I had responded:

> There are no SCA-period Afghan cookbooks that i know of, and only a

> couple Indian ones. Other than the Ni'matnama, which has both Persian

> and Indian qualities, i've heard rumors of a surviving Persian

> cookbook, but if that's true, it hasn't been translated into any

> Western European language to the best of my knowledge.

Duriel then answered:

> Here's a site with all sorts of relevant content.

> http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah/links-ME-cuisine.html

There's actually very little relevant content on this page.

There are no links on this page (which happens to be mine :-) to

SCA-period Afghan or Persian recipes.

The only relevant link to Moghul Indian food is to the several

recipes Duke Cariadoc worked out from the work Ain-i-Akbari, already

mentioned previously in this thread.

> and another for Indian research

> http://www.sonoma.edu/rpdc/nbisp/india/iresources.html

I don't [have] much of anything about pre-17th century Moghul cooking on

this page.

Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)

the persona formerly known as Anahita

Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 14:39:50 -0400

From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"

<adamantius.magister at verizon.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On Jun 8, 2006, at 1:07 PM, lilinah at earthlink.net wrote:

> They would need to be scholars of food history from before 1601, and

> they're pretty rare, since most Indians, like most American and

> Europeans, don't know much about food from over 400 years ago.

> It seems to me that you continue to suggest we look at modern

> cookbooks, which are almost always not relevant, when threads concern

> SCA-period historical cooking. I've got plenty of Persian, Afghan,

> and Indian cookbooks on my shelves, and most are modern and not

> relevant to the topic.

I was recently told about some controversy in my Kingdom in which a

Laurel recognized for her work in Persian studies announced in

connection with some local cook's modern Middle Eastern cooking that

modern ME cooking is fine for SCA use since Persian cooking has not

changed materially for 1000 years, and her correspondents in modern

Iran confirm this.

The guy who told me about all this is another Laurel who has

extensively studied the Persian culture in our period, but hasn't

done much of a study on food, and merely suspected that this claim

was utter sheepdip, without any hard evidence of same.

I got out a modern Persian cookbook and showed him an approximate

percentage of dishes prominently featuring ingredients the Persians

almost certainly could not have had access to 1000 years ago. I

pointed out that I couldn't be sure of the extent to which cooking

methods and styles had changed, but that the likelihood was that some

ancient, traditional methods had survived, and some had probably

changed per the same cultural and social forces that caused available

foodstuffs to change. Looking at Kitab al-Tabikh, which may not be

completely identifiable with the Persian cookery of its time, but

which appears to be Persian-influenced, at least, we find some pretty

significant differences in techniques and styles.

Adamantius

Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 13:22:47 -0700

From: lilinah at earthlink.net

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

G. Tacitus Adamantius wrote:

> I was recently told about some controversy in my Kingdom in which a

> Laurel recognized for her work in Persian studies announced in

> connection with some local cook's modern Middle Eastern cooking that

> modern ME cooking is fine for SCA use since Persian cooking has not

> changed materially for 1000 years, and her correspondents in modern

> Iran confirm this.

Aargh! Aargh! Aargh! (sound of hair being torn out).

I'm on quite a few Near and Middle Eastern oriented SCA e-lists. This

was the sort of thing i heard about garb back in the dark ages when i

joined up (7 years ago :-) People complained that it was too

difficult and too expensive to make period Near/Middle Eastern garb.

And besides, things hadn't changed (insert Carl Sagan voice) in

*thousands* of years (end Carl Sagan voice).

(and i found his intonation especially annoying when i was in labor

in the maternity ward and he was on TV. I switched to the World

Series. Much better)

> The guy who told me about all this is another Laurel who has

> extensively studied the Persian culture in our period, but hasn't

> done much of a study on food, and merely suspected that this claim

> was utter sheepdip, without any hard evidence of same.

Wow! Someone else who says "sheepdip" instead of a shorter word!

Well, this guy is absolutely correct. Yeah, yeah, i don't know of an

SCA period Persian cookbook, but looking through "period" Andalusi,

Egyptian, 'Abbasid, and Ottoman cookbooks and comparing the cuisine

to modern recipes, it's easy to see that are significant differences.

How'd this female get a Laurel?!? (don't answer. I know, i'm not

displaying "peer like qualities")

> I got out a modern Persian cookbook and showed him an approximate

> percentage of dishes prominently featuring ingredients the Persians

> almost certainly could not have had access to 1000 years ago. I

> pointed out that I couldn't be sure of the extent to which cooking

> methods and styles had changed, but that the likelihood was that some

> ancient, traditional methods had survived, and some had probably

> changed per the same cultural and social forces that caused available

> foodstuffs to change. Looking at Kitab al-Tabikh, which may not be

> completely identifiable with the Persian cookery of its time, but

> which appears to be Persian-influenced, at least, we find some pretty

> significant differences in techniques and styles.

Oh, yeah. So many of the dishes have Persian derived names and are

supposedly based on Persian recipes. This is also true of that

handful of 15th C. Ottoman recipes recently published - lots of

Persian influence.

Related, but tangential... when Ibn Battuta visited with Turkic

people in the 14th century, they eschewed sweet dishes. By the 16th

century, with the rise to power of the Ottomans, the Turks in

Istanbul had developed an enormous sweet tooth. And that's in less

than 200 years!

According to Yerasimos who translated those 15th c. Ottoman recipes,

the Ottomans didn't adopt tomatoes and bell peppers until the 18th

century, and yet they are such an integral part of modern Turkish

cuisine.

So how could Persian cuisine stay the same until the 21st century,

especially when there were in the midst of so many trade routes and

and so many wars?

-----

Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)

the persona formerly known as Anahita

Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2006 21:42:46 -0400

From: ranvaig at columbus.rr.com

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pakistan

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

The Nimatnama Manuscript Of The Sultans Of Mandu Book By Norah M

Titley ISBN 041535059X.

It's a pretty book, it has a facimaly of manuscript in B&W at the

back (reading from the back like the original), many wonderful

illuminations in color, and the translated recipes. The recipe

section is around 100 pages, and It costs over $100, so you might

want to ILL it, like I did.

I'm not aware of any other medieval Indian recipes in English.

There is a SCA India mailing list at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/

SCA_India/

Ranvaig

Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 02:10:16 -0500

From: "Katherine Throckmorton" <kthrockmorton at lycos.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pakistan

To: hlaislinn at earthlink.net, "Cooks within the SCA"

<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Aislinn wrote:

> Are there any medieval manuscripts for her area [India and Pakistan] of the

> world I can introduce her to?

Other than the _Nimitanama_ the only thing that I'm aware of, are the

recipie-like things in the 'Ain-i-Akbari. I call them recipie like

things because they were compiled by a non-cook and although they

give a complete list of ingredients it dosen't tell you how to cook

the dish. Your friend can probobly make some pretty good guesses

about how to put the ingredients together.

The 'Ain-i-Akbari is on the web here:

http://persian.packhum.org/persian/pf?file=00702051&;ct=0

'Ains 23-29 relate to food.

-Katherine

Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 15:43:01 -0500

From: "Katherine Throckmorton" <kthrockmorton at lycos.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pakistan

To: hlaislinn at earthlink.net, "Cooks within the SCA"

<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Aislinn wrote:

> Thank you for this, it is a fascinating manuscript.

You are most welcome! I really enjoy it, it can be frustratingly

vague in places but it is still a wonderful resource. I mean, where

else can you find out what the annual salary of an assistant cheetah

keeper was in 16th century Delhi? :)

One thing that really excites/annoys me is that there origionally the

'Ain-i-Akbari was *illustrated*, but as far as I know no facsimile

copy has been published or is in the works. I've seen a few plates

reproduced, but that is it.

-Katherine

Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 17:56:46 -0700

From: lilinah at earthlink.net

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Partial Mughal Cookbook

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

At 11:03 AM -0500 23/06/06, on a different list than this one, a girl

named Sue wrote:

> Here is a book I have seen for sale but have not bought yet -

> "Nuskha-e-Shahjahani : Pulaos from the Royal Kitchen of Shah Jahan"

> by Salma Husain. Shah Jahan ruled from 1628 - 1658, so it is out

> of period slightly. I think most copies are in India or Britain which

> means high shipping costs. But it sounds very interesting.

I finally went and ordered it on 11 July and it was shipped on 12

July. It took less time to get here than i

thought it would to get here from India - it just arrived today.

The author says she translated it from the original Persian in which

it was written. She also says that the recipes in this book are

merely a selection from a larger book (darn, i want the whole thing

:-)

As published, every recipe is set up in two columns. There is a list

of ingredients and quantities on one side of the page, and organized

and orderly cooking instructions on the other. The author mentions

that the original recipes give measurements and are very detailed.

The quantities are given in period measurements, but the directions

seem rather modern, although perhaps it's only a few of her word

choices that make it seem modern (like "saute" and "par-boil"). So i

can't tell if these are close to the originals or merely "inspired

by" her translation of them.

Sigh. So hard to tell... I guess i'll assume that they are accurate

and it is just the author's choice of some modern feeling words here

and there that is giving me doubts.

The recipes do look tasty. And even if the author modernized them a

little, they're still closer to period recipes than a modern Mughal

or Persian cookbook.

I just wish i had ALL the recipes from the old cookbook!

---

Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)

the persona formerly known as Anahita

Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2006 19:01:49 -0700

From: lilinah at earthlink.net

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Partial Mughal Cookbook

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Hey! I found a review of that book i just got:

Nuskha-e-Shahjahani: Pulaos from the Royal Kitchen of Shah Jahan

translated by Salma Husain.

Rupa & Co., New Delhi.

Pages 71.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040620/spectrum/book5.htm

Here the reviewer complains about the odd ingredients and the sketchy

instructions. I guess i'm just so used to looking at period recipes

that these looked very complete to me.

And i guess these really look "period" to the mundane cook :-)

Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)

the persona formerly known as Anahita

Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 09:53:25 -0500

From: "Elaine Koogler" <kiridono at gmail.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Hindu Recipe?

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

A sweet that I ran across researching recipes for my ME feast, though

Mughal, is from India (and IIRC) is actually period...don't have the source

here at work. I haven't tried it yet, but it sounds yummy...dried apricots

stuffed with marzipan. Very simple...and should be completely vegetarian.

Also, there is a vegetarian version of samosas (also period, by the bye)

that's very tasty. It's a little more complicated to prepare, but you could

use the ready-made pie dough (Pillbury makes a very good one). It is a

savory, but most folks, even those not at all adventurous, seem to like it.

I don't have the recipe here, but you could "google" samosas and find one

online.

Kiri

On 11/15/06, CLdyroz at aol.com <CLdyroz at aol.com> wrote:

> Well, it is time to start the Holiday Office Parties.

> My office is doing their Thanksgiving get-together next Tuesday.

> We have a new guy in the office who is of Indian extraction and

> Hindu by faith.

> That means that he is a strict vegetarian...

> does anyone know of a dish or

> a source, where I can find a fairly easy Hindu/Indian dish, that would also

> work for an ethnically mixed office? Possibly a sweet? (that would go

> better with this crowd then a curry)

> Helen

Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 13:27:02 -0500

From: "Elaine Koogler" <kiridono at gmail.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Stuffed apricots?

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I can't even claim credit for it. I think it may have come from a booklet

on a Mughal feast published by the Madrone Cooks' Guild...I'd have to check,

but I think that's where I saw it.

Kiri

On 11/16/06, Georgia Foster <jo_foster81 at hotmail.com> wrote:

> Marzipan stuffed apricots would be JUST THE THING for our office Goodies

> day. Easy, elegant, and not too expensive. May get a box of cloves and

> stick a clove in the top of each to dress it up even more.

> Malkin

> Otherhill

> Artemisia

Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 00:46:51 -0700 (PDT)

From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Indian dinner at Pennsic?

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

--- ranvaig at columbus.rr.com wrote:

>>> I'm camping with Little India, who are doing their Biyari, period

>>> Indian dinner on Tues night.

>> Do you know what their sources are? Period Indian cookbooks are a bit

>> scarce, although there are, of course, food references in the

>> literature.

> I've been asked research some recipes from the Nimatnama. Someone

> else is doing some research

> too, and I don't know what sources she is using. I helped cook

> three years ago, I saw a copy of

> the recipes when we were cooking, but was not able to get a copy

> for myself. The food was very

> good and seemed appropriate, but I really don't know how close to

> the source they were. If you

> have any suggestions I'll share them with the lady who is charge.

> Ranvaig

Hi Ranvaig!

I am not His Grace, but one of the big things to remember is that capsicum peppers didn't arrive in India until just after 1600. So any curry you make should be spiced with long pepper, which was native and not with capsicum peppers.

Here is a recipe that I have had success with:

Lamb Samosas

> From the Sultan's Book of Delights (late fifteenth century)

Another kind of Ghiyath Shahi's samosas: take finely minced deer meat

and flavour ghee with

fenugreek and, having mixed the mince with saffron, put it in the

ghee. Roast salt and cumin

together. Having added cumin, cloves, coriander and a quarter of a

ratti of musk to the mince,

cook it well. Put half of the minced onion and a quarter of the

minced dry ginger into the

meat. When it has become well-cooked, put in rosewater. Take it off

and stuff the samosas.

Make a hole in the samosa with a stick and fry it in sweet-smelling

ghee and serve it (when)

tender. By the same method of any kind of meat that is desired, can

be made.

Ingredients:

Filling:

1 lbs ground lamb

1 tbsp ghee or clarified butter

1 tsp ground fenugreek

1/4 tsp saffron

1 tsp salt

1 tsp cumin

1 tsp cloves

1 tsp coriander

1 large sweet onion, minced [1 cup approx.]

1/4 cup minced fresh ginger

1 tbsp rose water

Put ghee in a large frying pan and add fenugreek and saffron,

stirring for a few minutes. Add

lamb and start to brown. Add salt, cumin, cloves, coriander onion and

ginger, stirring until the

meat is brown and fragrant. Add rose water and remove from heat.

Pastry:

Ingredients:

2 cups unbleached flour

3/4 tsp salt

1 1/2 tbsp ghee or clarified butter

1/2 to 3/4 cup water

Sift flour and salt together. Make a well in the center of the

mixture and quickly pour in ghee

and water. Stir briskly until combined, gradually adding more water

if necessary. You should aim

for a slightly moist dough that sticks together. On a lightly floured

surface, knead dough for 10

minutes until smooth and elastic, cover with damp towel.

Assembly:

To assemble samosa, break off pieces of dough (leaving what's left

under the towel) and shape into

balls. Roll each ball into a circle about 1/10 of an inch thick and 5

inches across. Cut the

circle in half. In one side put filling, fold half of the half circle

over to make a triangle.

Seal by brushing a bit of water along the edges and pinching it

together with your finger. Heat 2

inches ghee in a skillet or pan to 375 degrees. Put in samosas and

let it fry to a golden brown on

each side. Then drain on cloth or paper towel and eat.

Note: I didn't experiment with the roasting cumin and salt

together. But I added both to the

filling. I didn't have any musk to add and couldn't think of an

adequate substitute, so I left it

out. I followed a modern Indian recipe for the pastry since the

original was so vague.

Huette

Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 00:01:40 -0700

From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Indian dinner at Pennsic?

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

>>> I'm camping with Little India, who are doing their Biyari, period

>>> Indian dinner on Tues night.

>> Do you know what their sources are? Period Indian cookbooks are a bit

>> scarce, although there are, of course, food references in the

>> literature.

> I've been asked research some recipes from the Nimatnama. Someone

> else is doing some research too, and I don't know what sources she

> is using. I helped cook three years ago, I saw a copy of the

> recipes when we were cooking, but was not able to get a copy for

> myself. The food was very good and seemed appropriate, but I really

> don't know how close to the source they were. If you have any

> suggestions I'll share them with the lady who is charge.

The one source I know is the _Akbarnama_. It has ingredient lists

for, I think, thirty dishes--quantities but no instructions, the

opposite of the usual medieval recipe. It also has instructions for

making bread and for distilling arrack.

If they have other primary sources, it would be worth posting

something about them here. At one point I thought I was on the trail

of one but I never managed to locate it, and it was a long time ago.

David/Cariadoc

www.daviddfriedman.com

Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 12:42:33 -0700 (PDT)

From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Indian dinner at Pennsic?

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Hi Cariadoc?

Are you not familiar with the Nimatnama? I have re-read your post here several times and I can't tell if you have seen this book. It is 15th Century Mughal

from the sultanate of Mandu. If you don't have it, it is well worth the price and has just been published in the last two years. Here is the LC record for it:

The Niʻmatnāma manuscript of the sultans of Mandu : the

Sultan?s book of delights /

translated by Norah M. Titley. London ; New York : RoutledgeCurzon, 2005.

xx, 121 p., [516] p. of plates : ill. (some col.) ; 25 cm.

ISBN: 041535059X (cloth)

Niʻmatnāmah-yi Nāṣiruddīn

Shāhī--Illustrations.

Cookery--India--Māndu--Early works to 1800.

Sultans in art--Early works to 1800.

Manuscripts, Urdu--India--Māndu--Facsimiles.

Illumination of books and manuscripts, Indic--India--Māndu--

Early works to 1800.

Māndu (India)--Court and courtiers--Food--Early works to 1800.

Thank you for mentioning the Akbarnama. I have found a 3 vol. copy

in English for $45 + the cost

of shipping from India. It would be interesting to compare the Akbar

list with the Ni'mat recipes and see if there are any cross-overs.

Huette

--- David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com> wrote:

>>>> I'm camping with Little India, who are doing their Biyari, period

>>>> Indian dinner on Tues night.

>>>

>>> Do you know what their sources are? Period Indian cookbooks are a bit

>>> scarce, although there are, of course, food references in the

>>> literature.

>> I've been asked research some recipes from the Nimatnama. Someone

>> else is doing some research too, and I don't know what sources she

>> is using. I helped cook three years ago, I saw a copy of the

>> recipes when we were cooking, but was not able to get a copy for

>> myself. The food was very good and seemed appropriate, but I really

>> don't know how close to the source they were. If you have any

>> suggestions I'll share them with the lady who is charge.

> The one source I know is the _Akbarnama_. It has ingredient lists

> for, I think, thirty dishes--quantities but no instructions, the

> opposite of the usual medieval recipe. It also has instructions for

> making bread and for distilling arrack.

> If they have other primary sources, it would be worth posting

> something about them here. At one point I thought I was on the trail

> of one but I never managed to locate it, and it was a long time ago.

> --

> David/Cariadoc

> www.daviddfriedman.com

Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 18:20:27 -0400

From: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Indian dinner at Pennsic?

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Huette von Ahrens wrote:

> Thank you for mentioning the Akbarnama. I have found a 3 vol. copy

> in English for $45 + the cost

> of shipping from India. It would be interesting to compare the

> Akbar list with the Ni'mat recipes and see if there are any cross-overs.

Before you get out the credit card, you might want to look at the webbed

version here:

http://persian.packhum.org/persian/index.jsp?serv=pf&;file=00702051&ct=49

Brighid ni Chiarain

Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom

Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 00:03:03 -0400

From: ranvaig at columbus.rr.com

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Indian dinner at Pennsic?

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

>> Hi Cariadoc?

>> Are you not familiar with the Nimatnama?

> Haven't seen it. Sounds interesting. How much of

> a cookbook is it--in terms of number of recipes

> and information?

> On Amazon it's very expensive. I'll have to check

> if my school's library has it.

There are about 100 pages of translated recipes for food, drink,

perfume and medicine. There are quite a few redundancies, and some

omissions, but its a great resource. My only problem is that I wish

they gave the untranslated word for some of the dishes and

ingredients. Does it REALLY say "samosa" or is that a translation?

It includes a reproduction of the original, so one could transcribe

it oneself. There is a black and white reproduction of the whole

book, and the many illustrations are reproduced in color. It's

expensive, but its a great book. It is available from ILL, if you

want to see it before you purchase.

http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00routesdata/1400_1499/

mandu/nimatnama/nimatnama.html

Ranvaig

Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 02:31:50 -0700 (PDT)

From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Indian dinner at Pennsic?

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

> Thank you for mentioning the Akbarnama. I have

> found a 3 vol. copy in English for $45 + the cost

> of shipping from India. It would be interesting

> to compare the Akbar list with the Ni'mat

> recipes and see if there are any cross-overs.

> Huette

It isn't a huge book, in terms of the actual recipes. 121 pages of the translations and 10 pages of introduction and glossary. Most of the rest of the

actual book is a facsimile of the original manuscript, in black and white, 516 pages worth. If you could read the script, you would be able to compare the original with the translation.

There is an interesting center section with all of the illustrations grouped together and in color, which gives you interesting kitchen, dining and outdoor

scenes and clothing of that region and era. But compared to the Medieval Arabic Cookery book, it is very small and with comparatively little commentary.

However, just getting period Indian recipes translated into English, to me, is worth the purchase price. But YMMV.

Huette

Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2007 10:02:23 -0700

From: Lilinah <lilinah at earthlink.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Indian dinner at Pennsic?

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Here's what i've found so far for SCA-period Indian cookbooks, in

chronological order. Clearly there's more written about food in

Indian texts, but it's not an area i've been researching, so i

haven't collected a list of sources.

---------------------

(1.) late 15th-early 16th C. Persian, Moghul, and Indian

The Ni'matna'ma Manuscript of the Sultans of Mandu: The Sultan's Book

of Delights

translated by Norah M. Titley

RoutledgeCurzon

Abingdon, Oxon, UK: 2005

ISBN 0-415-35059-X

We've discussed the Ni'matna'ma on this list a number of times since

the publication if Titley's translation about 1-1/2 years ago.

The Ni'matna'ma is a late 15th and early 16th C. Moghul recipe and

medicinal book, written in Urdu.

It is a unique book, in the TRUE sense of the word - there is only

one manuscript and no copies in existence, and it is in the Oriental

and India Office Collections of the British Library (BL. Persian

149). The book was compiled between 1495 and 1505. It contains

recipes for food, betel, medicinals, aphrodisiacs, perfumes, and

more, written for Ghiyath Shahi, Sultan of Mandu (now Madhya

Pradesh), from 1469-1500, and continued by his successor, his son

Nasir Shah. It reflects Moghul culture that was highly influenced by

Persia.

It was illustrated with fifty miniatures, the first few painted in a

distinctive Shiraz (Southern Iranian) style by imported Persian

artists, but increasingly the later illustrations show the indigenous

styles of book painting from Central and Western India.

Titley's scholarly publication includes a complete translation with

notes and a complete reproduction of the original book in

photographic plates. Because facsimile and the color plates, it costs

over $100 US, so i recommend ILL'ing it, too. It is fun to read -

although most of the aphrodisiacs are for males.

I hesitate to bring my copy to Pennsic. Perhaps there's some time in

the next month and a half when i could show you my copy.

---------------------

(2.) Late 16th C. Persian, Moghul, and Indian

Ain-i Akbari

part of the Akbarnamah

by Shaikh Abu al-Fazl ibn Mubarak

circa 1590

Ain-i Akbari, the third volume of the Akbarnamah, was written by

Shaikh Abu al-Fazl ibn Mubarak, who was Akbar's minister and friend.

It was written in Persian. This volume in particular, is an account

of Mughal India, especially Akbar's court, in the late 16th Century.

It contains information regarding Akbar's reign. Apparently it isn't

always completely accurate, but it helps in understanding of its

time. It catalogues facts for which, in modern times, we would turn

to administration reports, statistical compilations, or gazetteers.

It is essentially the Administration Report and Statistical Return of

his government in about 1590 CE.

Bewsides a section with recipes, there are other sections on

foodstuffs, for example listing foods and fresh produce available for

sale in marketplaces and their appropriate prices. It's clear they

were being eaten, although since some of these foods are not included

in the recipes, we don't exactly know what to do with them,

The translation into English by H. Blochmann 1873, and completed by

Colonel H. S. Jarrett in 1907, has been made available on-line by The

Packard Humanities Institute. Here's the index for Volume 1 (of 3) of

the Ain-i Akbari, which has the section with recipes, as well as

other sections that have food info...

http://persian.packhum.org/persian/pf?file=00702051&;ct=0

---------------------

(3.) Early 17th C. Moghul

Nuskha-e-Shahjahani: Pulaos from the Royal Kitchen of Shah Jahan

translated by Salma Husain

Rupa & Co., New Delhi: 2004

ISBN 81-7167-989-7

Shah Jahan ruled from 1628-1658, so if the manuscript is from his

reign, it is somewhat out of period. Unfortunately this modern

publication is frustrating from a scholarly point of view. The

author's scantily historical intro raises more questions than it

answers. While Husain says she has translated the recipes into

English from the original Persian language manuscript, she never

mentions the provenance or even date of the original manuscript, nor

does she say where this manuscript currently is. Thus one cannot

verify her claims.

The modern publication includes only 70 rice-based savory and sweet

recipes, merely a selection from the original cookbook. There are no

purely vegetable or fruit recipes. It has pulaos, quboolis, and

kichdis - which are all what we modern folks would consider "main

dishes", as well as a couple rice based sweet dishes, one which

interestingly show up in late 15th C. and 16th C. Ottoman feasts.

The recipes are fairly detailed, and at first i thought the author

had modernized them. But i was reading some Indian boards on the net

and it became clear from comments posted there by actual modern

Indians that these recipes really were not modern - both the

measurements and some of the cooking methods - and the dishes were

unfamiliar or quite different from modern versions. So i became more

certain that these are not 20th C. recipes, and probably not late

19th C. They might not be from a 17th C. manuscript, though, but i

have no way to check this because of the limited information from

Husain. And there's always the possibility that the author invented

them herself and made them seem old.

I just wish the book had two things:

1. more information about the original manuscript;

2. more of the original manuscript's recipes (even if they aren't SCA-

period)!

Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)

the persona formerly known as Anahita

Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 14:40:30 -0400

From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcarrollmann at gmail.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Musing on Mongol

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 2:18 PM, Lilinah <lilinah at earthlink.net> wrote:

<<< However, this makes me think that having a course of "fringe" foods might

work, or one or two "fringe" dishes in each course - both purely Arabic and

purely Chinese, and maybe a Turkish recipe or two - might help diversify the

food for non-meat eaters.

Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM) >>>

It's 16th century, but the Ain i Akbari has recipes from Mughal India,

including vegetarian recipes.

http://persian.packhum.org/persian/pf?file=00702051&;ct=0

Book 1, Chapter 24.

Brighid ni Chiarain

My NEW email is rcarrollmann at gmail.com

Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 08:10:36 -0500

From: Elaine Koogler <kiridono at gmail.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Middle Eastern Food

I do have a book that I purchased from India that contains recipes for

pulaos, from "...the kitchens of Shah Jahan". The only problem is that, in

addition to their being slightly out of period, and while the history

appears to be pretty accurate, there is no source given for any of the

recipes. However, they do describe the way the dishes were actually

prepared in period, which I found to be very interesting. The name of the

book is "Nuskha-e-Shahjahani" and the translator is Salma Husain, who also

wrote the introduction. Supposedly this is from an original Persian

manuscript...so the attribution appears to be a little weird unless stuff

from the Court of Shah Jahan was written in Persian!

Kiri

On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 8:46 PM, David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>wrote:

<<< Actually, I remembered there had been some discussion of whether it was or

wasn't Mughal but not the final conclusion, and was playing safe by

including it. Brain cells misfiring due to age.

The obvious next question is whether whoever volunteered for Mughal Indian

has sources other than the _Ain i Akbari_, or, alternatively, believes that

the Ni'matnama is Mughal.

Cariadoc >>>

Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 16:52:09 -0800

From: lilinah at earthlink.net

To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Middle Eastern Food

kiri wrote:

<<< I do have a book that I purchased from India that contains recipes for