Moghul-India-msg — 7/24/06
The culture and food of Moghul India. The Moghuls (or Mogols) were a dynasty that ruled Northern India from 1526 into the 18th Century.
NOTE: See also the files: Mongols-msg, Scythians-msg, spices-msg, Islamic-bib, Islam-msg, silk-road-msg, turbans-msg, cotton-art, silk-msg, textiles-msg.
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NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.
Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).
Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 10:53:08 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food
To: Cooks within the SCA sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Craig Jones wrote:
> Was talking with a wonderful chap in my Barony just now over dinner and he
> expressed a desire to research and cook Moghul style.
> I vaguely remember someone mentioning a book that was recently published.
> Anyone remember what it was and the quality/authenticity of the recipes?
>
> Drakey.
I suspect that this might be the book you want--
The NI'Matnama Manuscript of the Sultans of Mandu: The Sultan's Book of Delights
<http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books-
uk&field-author=Titley%2C%20Norah%20M./203-8301489-2310345>
by Norah M Titley
http://www.routledge-ny.com/shopping_cart/products/product_detail.asp?
sku=&isbn=041535059X&parent_id=102&pc=
I have to preface this by saying that my husband came home
last December and dropped The Ni'matnama Manuscript of the Sultans of Mandu
by Norah M. Titley into my lap. He reviewed something for CRC
and they sent him two books for free. So he picked up this
one for me. Never one to pass up a freebie, especially if it's subtitled
"A late fifteenth-century book of recipes written for the Sultan of Mandu, the Ni'matnama."
It's authentic.
Lots on oranges in it and sweets. It was a nice early holiday present.
A number of people on the list own it and the reviews tend to be positive.
There's some good stuff in it.
Is it worth buying? Yes and no. It's very expensive, so unless someone
is very into that area
I'd almost have to say no on a purchase. It's listed at $125 currently
in the USA. It's not turning up cheap on the used book market.
I'd say try for interlibrary loan and see if they can provide a copy.
The recipe section isn't that large. The plates take up most of the book. I'd say that most folks could do ok with the just a xeroxed recipe section, save the money on the purchase, and be quite happy.
Johnnae
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 10:36:21 -0500
From: "Katherine Throckmorton" <kthrockmorton at lycos.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Drakey wrote:
> I vaguely remember someone mentioning a book that was recently published.
> Anyone remember what it was and the quality/authenticity of the recipes?
You are probably thinking of the Nimatanama of the Sultan of Madu,
the details of which have already been posted. Another reliable
source for Moghul food is are the recipe-like things in the 'Ain-i-
Akbari which can be found here:
http://persian.packhum.org/persian/pf?file=00702051&;ct=49
which provide us with a total of thirty dishes. The main limitation
is that we are told what the dish is called and what goes into it,
but not how it is cooked.
There is also a further discussion of the fruits and other foods
available, but it is basically a list with prices.
http://persian.packhum.org/persian/pf?file=00702051&;ct=0
-Katherine/Asma
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 09:16:05 -0700
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
I don't know about any recent books on Moghul cooking. The one source
I know of is the _Ain i Akbari_, a translation of which was published
a very long time ago. It has a list of dishes, with ingredients,
quantities, and no instructions. It also has instructions for
distilling arrack and making bread.
--
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 12:58:37 -0400
From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1 at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
I acquired an excellent book on Moghul foods, etc. a little while
back..."The /Ni'matnama /Manuscript of the Sultans of
Mandu"...otherwise known as the Sultan's Book of Delights. It's not all
food, but does have a number of recipes in it. It also has paintings
from the ms. which illustrate, among other things, cooking techniques.
I have thoroughly enjoyed it.
Kiri
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 18:17:38 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
> Duriel said:
>> Not 'Mongol'...'Moghul'. Persia/Afghanistan/India. Lots of
>> cookbooks from there.
>
> When was this culture? Did it really cover Persia/Afghanistan, and I
> assume, parts of northwestern India? What effects did they have upon
> medieval Europe? Other than sitting astride some trade routes, so
> therefor either enhancing of inhibiting trade from the East?
>
> Stefan
Moghul (or Mogol) is a specific reference to the dynasty that ruled Northern
India from 1526 into the 18th Century. The dynasty continued its existence
into the 19th Century as a British controlled monarchy. Babur who founded
the dynasty was a Persian of Mongol descent from Genghis Khan on his
mother's side and Tamerlane on his father's. He failed in the attempt to
retake and hold the ancestral empire (Tamerlane's) based in Samakand losing
Afganistan, Uzbekistan and a few other pieces of real estate. He led his
men into Northern India.
Babur had no particular effect on Europe as his conquests come after the
Europeans began sailing to India and the East. Tamerlane was a different
story, first fighting a war and then controlling a large stretch of the Silk
Road before the fall of Byzantium. About 100 years later, the Uighurs began
a continuous conflict with the Chinese effectively closed off the Chinese
end of the Silk Road and giving impetus to the great Chinese trade fleets.
Bear
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 03:17:08 +0200
From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Am Donnerstag, 8. Juni 2006 00:27 schrieb Stefan li Rous:
> When was this culture? Did it really cover Persia/Afghanistan, and I
> assume, parts of northwestern India? What effects did they have upon
> medieval Europe? Other than sitting astride some trade routes, so
> therefor either enhancing of inhibiting trade from the East?
Basically, the Mughal empoerors were responsible for a large part of the India
'myth' of omnipotent tyrants living in untold luxury, dispensing largesse
with an open hand and indulging their every whim. When the Europeans reached
India in larger numbers by sea, they were just in time to meet their empire
at its height, and that must have been quite a spectacle. They didn't quite
understand the political role of conspicuous consumption, but they certainly
were impressed. The Mughals were happy to trade, and by and large
disinterested in matters maritime, so it was a match made in heaven.
The Mughals were also instrumental to integrating much of northern India into
the mental sphere that considers itself 'India', though that process did not
get completed until the Raj, they created the role models for generations of
Indian princes, and they were largely responsible for crushing political
Hinduism (leading some influential Hindus to cast their lot with the
Europeans when the time came), militarising Sikhism, and developing the modus
vivendi between the religions that to this day obtains in the parts of India
where that works.
Last, but not least, they gave German its word for cheating, e.g. at games of
chance - 'mogeln' - derived from an Indian technique of cutting very thin
semiprecious stone slices to create the impression of large gems.
Giano
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2006 19:05:11 -0500
From: "Katherine Throckmorton" <kthrockmorton at lycos.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
> When was this culture?
Depends on *where* you are talking about. In Central Asia (modern
Uzbekistan and Tajikistan) Moghul culture, which is in many ways a
medly of Persian (although frequently Persian at one remove) and
Mongol culture starts in the 14th century. If one is speaking about
the Moghul Empire, that starts in the early 16th century, after Babur
conquers parts of what is now Afganistan, Pakistan and India.
Usually when people are talking about "the Moghuls" they are talking
about the 16th century and later.
> Did it really cover Persia/Afghanistan, and I
> assume, parts of northwestern India?
It didn't cover Persia, but the court culture had a strong Persian
influence. The precise boundaries of Mughal territory shifted around
a fair amount, both during and after the SCA period. A decent summary
of the territory involved is, Afganistan, and ever-increasing chunks
of modern Pakistan, India and Bangaladesh. These two maps may prove
useful.
http://www.india-history.com/medival-india/mughal-empire.html
http://www.india-history.com/medival-india/mughal-empire.html
> What effects did they have upon
> medieval Europe? Other than sitting astride some trade routes, so
> therefor either enhancing of inhibiting trade from the East?
Mainly trade and trade goods, which is no little thing considering
that many of the exploratory voyages of the 15th and 16th centuries
were aimed at finding a direct route to India. India was an
important link in the spice trade. India was also important in the
gem and pearl trade, the Bay of Bengal was (and is) a important
source of pearls, and during the SCA period all of the diamonds came
from India. India was also a major supplier of cotton fabric.
During the 16th century the Moghuls were not the only players in this
trade, they had competition from the Deccani Sultanates and the
Vijayanagara Empire but they did manage to control a lot of it.
A number of Europeans came to trade and to "convert the heathen", in
the 16th century there was a substantial Portugese presence in Goa
and environs. There were also several Europeans who took service in
Akbar's court in various capacitites.
Finally, there is the fact that the SCA actually does a much better
job of imitating the social structure of the Moghul court than any
European model ;)
Katherine/Asma
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 20:04:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Your Grace!
You really need to purchase a copy of the Ni'matnama Manuscript. It is a 15th Century manuscript and even though it isn't as big as one would wish, it is a
Treasure room of fascinating recipes. It is fascinating to seen the relationship between this manuscript and the al-Baghdadi and the cross over foods.
I know we talked about Samosas on this list earlier and there are
recipes in this manuscript for them.
You would do well to purchase a copy.
Just my 2 pfennig.
Huette
--- David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com> wrote:
> I don't know about any recent books on Moghul cooking. The one source
> I know of is the _Ain i Akbari_, a translation of which was published
> a very long time ago. It has a list of dishes, with ingredients,
> quantities, and no instructions. It also has instructions for
> distilling arrack and making bread.
> --
> David/Cariadoc
> www.daviddfriedman.com
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 23:57:53 -0700
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Duriel wrote:
> Not 'Mongol'...'Moghul'. Persia/Afghanistan/India. Lots of
> cookbooks from there.
There are no SCA-period Afghan cookbooks that i know of, and only a
couple Indian ones. Other than the Ni'matnama, which has both Persian
and Indian qualities, i've heard rumors of a surviving Persian
cookbook, but if that's true, it hasn't been translated into any
Western European language to the best of my knowledge.
--
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 07:29:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: <tom.vincent at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Here's a site with all sorts of relevant content.
http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah/links-ME-cuisine.html
and another for Indian research
http://www.sonoma.edu/rpdc/nbisp/india/iresources.html
Duriel
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 10:07:31 -0700
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Duriel wrote:
>> Not 'Mongol'...'Moghul'. Persia/Afghanistan/India. Lots of
>> cookbooks from there.
I had responded:
> There are no SCA-period Afghan cookbooks that i know of, and only a
> couple Indian ones. Other than the Ni'matnama, which has both Persian
> and Indian qualities, i've heard rumors of a surviving Persian
> cookbook, but if that's true, it hasn't been translated into any
> Western European language to the best of my knowledge.
Duriel then answered:
> Here's a site with all sorts of relevant content.
> http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah/links-ME-cuisine.html
There's actually very little relevant content on this page.
There are no links on this page (which happens to be mine :-) to
SCA-period Afghan or Persian recipes.
The only relevant link to Moghul Indian food is to the several
recipes Duke Cariadoc worked out from the work Ain-i-Akbari, already
mentioned previously in this thread.
> and another for Indian research
> http://www.sonoma.edu/rpdc/nbisp/india/iresources.html
I don't [have] much of anything about pre-17th century Moghul cooking on
this page.
--
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 14:39:50 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"
<adamantius.magister at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
On Jun 8, 2006, at 1:07 PM, lilinah at earthlink.net wrote:
> They would need to be scholars of food history from before 1601, and
> they're pretty rare, since most Indians, like most American and
> Europeans, don't know much about food from over 400 years ago.
>
> It seems to me that you continue to suggest we look at modern
> cookbooks, which are almost always not relevant, when threads concern
> SCA-period historical cooking. I've got plenty of Persian, Afghan,
> and Indian cookbooks on my shelves, and most are modern and not
> relevant to the topic.
I was recently told about some controversy in my Kingdom in which a
Laurel recognized for her work in Persian studies announced in
connection with some local cook's modern Middle Eastern cooking that
modern ME cooking is fine for SCA use since Persian cooking has not
changed materially for 1000 years, and her correspondents in modern
Iran confirm this.
The guy who told me about all this is another Laurel who has
extensively studied the Persian culture in our period, but hasn't
done much of a study on food, and merely suspected that this claim
was utter sheepdip, without any hard evidence of same.
I got out a modern Persian cookbook and showed him an approximate
percentage of dishes prominently featuring ingredients the Persians
almost certainly could not have had access to 1000 years ago. I
pointed out that I couldn't be sure of the extent to which cooking
methods and styles had changed, but that the likelihood was that some
ancient, traditional methods had survived, and some had probably
changed per the same cultural and social forces that caused available
foodstuffs to change. Looking at Kitab al-Tabikh, which may not be
completely identifiable with the Persian cookery of its time, but
which appears to be Persian-influenced, at least, we find some pretty
significant differences in techniques and styles.
Adamantius
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2006 13:22:47 -0700
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Moghul Food
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
G. Tacitus Adamantius wrote:
> I was recently told about some controversy in my Kingdom in which a
> Laurel recognized for her work in Persian studies announced in
> connection with some local cook's modern Middle Eastern cooking that
> modern ME cooking is fine for SCA use since Persian cooking has not
> changed materially for 1000 years, and her correspondents in modern
> Iran confirm this.
Aargh! Aargh! Aargh! (sound of hair being torn out).
I'm on quite a few Near and Middle Eastern oriented SCA e-lists. This
was the sort of thing i heard about garb back in the dark ages when i
joined up (7 years ago :-) People complained that it was too
difficult and too expensive to make period Near/Middle Eastern garb.
And besides, things hadn't changed (insert Carl Sagan voice) in
*thousands* of years (end Carl Sagan voice).
(and i found his intonation especially annoying when i was in labor
in the maternity ward and he was on TV. I switched to the World
Series. Much better)
> The guy who told me about all this is another Laurel who has
> extensively studied the Persian culture in our period, but hasn't
> done much of a study on food, and merely suspected that this claim
> was utter sheepdip, without any hard evidence of same.
Wow! Someone else who says "sheepdip" instead of a shorter word!
Well, this guy is absolutely correct. Yeah, yeah, i don't know of an
SCA period Persian cookbook, but looking through "period" Andalusi,
Egyptian, 'Abbasid, and Ottoman cookbooks and comparing the cuisine
to modern recipes, it's easy to see that are significant differences.
How'd this female get a Laurel?!? (don't answer. I know, i'm not
displaying "peer like qualities")
> I got out a modern Persian cookbook and showed him an approximate
> percentage of dishes prominently featuring ingredients the Persians
> almost certainly could not have had access to 1000 years ago. I
> pointed out that I couldn't be sure of the extent to which cooking
> methods and styles had changed, but that the likelihood was that some
> ancient, traditional methods had survived, and some had probably
> changed per the same cultural and social forces that caused available
> foodstuffs to change. Looking at Kitab al-Tabikh, which may not be
> completely identifiable with the Persian cookery of its time, but
> which appears to be Persian-influenced, at least, we find some pretty
> significant differences in techniques and styles.
Oh, yeah. So many of the dishes have Persian derived names and are
supposedly based on Persian recipes. This is also true of that
handful of 15th C. Ottoman recipes recently published - lots of
Persian influence.
Related, but tangential... when Ibn Battuta visited with Turkic
people in the 14th century, they eschewed sweet dishes. By the 16th
century, with the rise to power of the Ottomans, the Turks in
Istanbul had developed an enormous sweet tooth. And that's in less
than 200 years!
According to Yerasimos who translated those 15th c. Ottoman recipes,
the Ottomans didn't adopt tomatoes and bell peppers until the 18th
century, and yet they are such an integral part of modern Turkish
cuisine.
So how could Persian cuisine stay the same until the 21st century,
especially when there were in the midst of so many trade routes and
and so many wars?
-----
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita
<the end>