Khazars-msg - 8/28/10

A medieval Jewish kingdom in the Caspian Sea area.

NOTE: See also the files: fd-Khazaria-art, Jews-msg, fd-Jewish-msg, fd-Russia-msg, cl-Russia-msg, Russia-msg.

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NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

Thank you,
    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: sbloch at silver.cs.umanitoba.ca (Stephen Bloch)
Subject: Re: Religion, Sutton Hoo, and Bob
Organization: Computer Science, University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1993 22:38:31 GMT

v081lu33 at ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Kenneth C Mondschein) writes:
>	Firstly, I, like many newbies in the SCA, feel compelled to
>adopt a persona. OF course, religion was a *MAJOR* part of the Medieval
>mindset, and if I'm to have a realistic persona, should be a part of
>my mindset, too. 

Quite true.  I haven't done a terribly good job of it; my handicap is
that I WASN'T brought up Jewish, so I don't know the traditions, the
calendar, the alphabet, etc.  But I'm working on it.

>	This is where the problem comes in. I'm Jewish, and there were
>not many gently-born Jews in either the Middle Ages or early Renaissance

True, there were "not many gently-born Jews" in most of our period,
reading "gently-born" as "lesser nobility, which everybody in the SCA
is assumed to be unless stated otherwise."  But I see nothing wrong
with considering myself to be merchant-class.  Many Jews in our period
made a living at international trade, taking advantage of the fact
that a sufficiently prominent Jew could write a letter of credit in
Paris and have it honored by the Jewish community in Damascus (or so
I've heard; does anybody have better information on this?).  If
pressed for my persona's occupation, I claim to be a cook and sometime
musician in the houses of the nobility of Cordoba; Jews are known to
have held both these types of positions.  In particular, cookery in
the Middle Ages was close kin to the practice of medicine, and the
skills of Jewish doctors were renowned around the world.

>I would either have to choose a personae from the Middle East, perhaps
>Byzantium, or that really obscure kingdom from around the Caspian Sea. Ergo,
>I have a little problem: I can either be compelled to burn myself at the stake,
>or have my choice of personae severely limited.

"that really obscure kingdom from around the Caspian Sea" is the land
of the Khazars.  Not a whole lot is known about them (partly because
the kingdom seems to have disappeared in the 10th century); an article
in TI 101 (Winter 1991) summarizes it.  Moslem Spain also has lots of
Jews in respected positions, peaking with Hasdai ibn-Shaprut, who in
the 9th century was a close personal advisor, ambassador, and doctor to
the Caliph.

But you can have a decent persona life in most of Christian Europe as
well: people were not burned at the stake simply for being Jewish
except in isolated cases of mob violence or the Inquisition.  Many
cities of Christian Europe had thriving Jewish communities, whose
leaders would often work out a contract with the local ruler: the
Jewish community got the personal protection of the ruler, in exchange
for providing learning and loan capital with its generally salutory
effects on the local economy.

>I don't see why the Church of the Sub-Genius wouldn't be period; we
>all well know Bob has time travelling abilities.

I think the Sub-Genius emphasis on sales and self-improvement would
find little fertile soil in the economic and social climate of the
Middle Ages.  Sad to say, I think the message of "Bob" may be one for
our own century. :-)

				mar-Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib
					Stephen Bloch
				    sbloch at cs.umanitoba.ca


From: sbloch at ms.uky.edu (Stephen Bloch)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Thought Experiment: Chazar Correction
Date: 3 Feb 1994 17:35:42 -0500
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences

Ken Mondschein <v081lu33 at ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu> wrote:
>... Nahum said ...
>>by 993 C.E. the Chazars had been wiped out by the Russ.
>	Fortunately, I have found (in my sourcebook for my Jew in the Middle
>Ages class) tertiary evidence that the Chazars survived till the 13th century,
>(which would mean Nahum's armor *does* fit into the time period) as well as
>a letter from their King, Joseph, to a Jewish scholar in Spain. This includes
>the descent of the dynasty of the ruling house of Chasars.

If the book in question is "Jewish Travellers of the Middle Ages", I don't
recall any mention of the Chazars that late.  The exchange of letters
between King Joseph of the Khazars and R. Hasdai ibn-Shaprut of al-Andalus
took place in the 10th century.  (It's a fascinating letter, by the way: R.
Hasdai starts with a "return address", describing his own country in some
detail, complete with what minerals they mine and what crops they raise,
followed by detailed latitude and longitude measurements for his own
country, Constantinople, and where he thinks the Khozars are.  The
latitudes, for the most part, are correct to two or three places; the
longitudes make no sense at all.)

				mar-Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib
					Stephen Bloch
				     sbloch at s.ms.uky.edu


Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 13:35:43 EST
From: <Varju at aol.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Mongols at Peipus

MHoll at aol.com writes:

<< Possible, but again as individuals or independent groups, since the Khazar
 Khaganate disintegrated in the X century (probably dealt the fatal blow by
 the Russians). >>

The final blow according to Stuart Legg in _The Barbarians of Asia_  was by
the influx of new Turkic peoples from the East mainly the Kipchaks, who swept
through after the Khazars had been weakened by attack from the Russians and
the Byzantine empire.  He says the Khazars were scattered, some abosorbed by
other groups, but that they remained in that region for some time in small
groups.

Noemi


From: msaroff.123456 at pobox.com (Matthew Saroff  (Remove .123456 to reply))
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Khazar garb/heraldry help
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 03:57:45 GMT

jdmiller2 at students.wisc.edu (Jennifer D. Miller) wrote:
> dobrikin at radiant.net says...
>>
>>Hi, as a relative newcomer I am beginning to develop my persona but I
>>am hitting a brick wall when Trying to find any detailed info.
>>My Persona (unnamed so far) is from the Khazarian Empire, southern
>>Russia (the Ukraine)  between 650 and 950. If anybody can point me to
>>any useful info it would be greatly appreciated. Feel free to e-mail
>>me at     dobrikin at radiant.net
>>Thanks in advance
>>
>>                                           Phil

>Zdravstvuite!
>
>Come on over to the Slavic Interest Group!  We study the medieval Slavic and 
>Hungarian areas that the SCA covers and have members who can help you with your 
>research.  All our members have experienced how difficult it can be to find 
>info about medieval Slavica (I know we have people who are interested in 
>Khazaria).  SIG offers a free quarterly newsletter that you can access on the 
>web or have surface-mailed to you.  We also maintain an electronic discussion 
>group that always has interesting discussions going on.  Information on joining 
>the SIG-list can be found on the main SIG page.

        I will make the point that the Khazars are a Turkic and
not a slavic people (in fact, they seem to be hereditary enemies).

        I have had a devil of a time finding stuff about living
and clothing too.

        Here are some web pages http://www.khazaria.com/
(probably the most extensive site)
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/6784/index.html is rather more polemic.

        Stay from Koestler's book, except for the bibliography.
It's garbage.  There is an interesting genetic survey refuting
the idea that Ahskenazi Jews are of Khazar extraction at
http://tarkus.pha.jhu.edu/~ethan/jFAQ.html

        If you want to do Khazar, you should wear lots of silk,
but EVERYONE should wear lots of silk.   ;-) 

        There are references to their wearing long coats.  I've
been told that Ibn Faudlan's tales (he was a well travel led
arab) (sp?) and D.M. Dunlop's book "The history of the Jewish
Khazars" are very good sources.


Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 15:30:23 -0400
From: Patrick Levesque <petruvoda at videotron.ca>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] A request for sources on Khazar, or Caspian
	Sea	foods in the 7th through 11th C
To: "Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>"
	<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

The closest thing that springs to mind is 'Tender Meat Under the Saddle', a
collection of essays which examines the food habits of the nomads in the
Hungarian plains. The time period is about right too. Devra used to stock it
(it's her fault I got a copy!)?

You may want to check Byzantine annals - if I remember correctly they did
have diplomatic relationship with the Khazars. You will probably find a few
descriptions of customs and even eating habits, if you're lucky.

Petru

On 27/08/07 13:32, "Steinfeld,  Henry S CIV NAVAIR PMA-209T&E/AIR 1.6.3"
<Henry.Steinfeld at navy.mil> wrote:
> I did a search to see if this has come up and it has not yet.  I am
> researching my persona which is Khazar, 9th C and looking for
> appropriate foods of the region.  The Khazars resided in the Steppes
> region around the Caspian sea to Kiev.  Their influence included the
> Magyars, Huns, pre-Kievan Rus, Bulgars and were distant relatives of the
> Mongols, Semitic Jews and were considered to be a Turkic people.
> Religiously, they were Shamanists, Muslim, Christian and Jew and they
> generally lived within their Kagantate in a tolerant  peace.
>
> If you have sources I can investigate (preferably translated) please let
> me know.  If you have recipes from this region, that would be great, I
> would like to do the redactions.  (I will happily take redacted as well)
> So far I have found little that can be documented to the region.
>
> Khadir bar Yosef


Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 07:50:51 -0400
From: "Steinfeld,	Henry S CIV NAVAIR PMA-209T&E/AIR 1.6.3"
	<Henry.Steinfeld at navy.mil>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Was Khazar Kosher?
To: <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

When I first sent out a request for help on the topic of Khazar/ Caspian
sea foods, the question came back as to whether or not the Khazars were
kosher.  

The research I have done on this would indicate that they very
well may have been.  This is based upon the fact that the Jews in
Khazaria were rabbinic Jews and so followed the Talmud (Babylonian
Talmud) which had recently been completed (about 460-490).  Those Khazar
Jews who were not Rabbinic Jews were Karites which are a strict literal
sect following the Torah only and so again would have been following the
dietary laws which would be considered kosher.  Recognizing that many of
the kosher laws and Muslim dietary restrictions are similar would make
such living, especially in any trading center or town quite possible.
Though to date I have not found any specific references to foods (other
than the dietary guidelines) an the book previously mentioned (Tender
Meats under the Saddle) I can see no reason to think they (the Khazars)
would have not followed the Law as given in the Torah and Talmud.

Khadir


Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 13:28:28 -0400
From: "Saint Phlip" <phlip at 99main.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Was Khazar Kosher?
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

While you may have a point regarding the Jewish Khazars, the Khazars
were not a completely Jewish group. Initially, only their rulers
converted, then members of the nobility, then the common people- and
not all of the latter two groups converted. The Khazars were a very
tolerant nation, and religions of all flavors were allowed to
flourish, from their original animistic paganism, through and
including Christianity and Islam, as well as, no doubt, whatever other
religion someone chose to profess.

On 9/24/07, Steinfeld,  Henry S CIV NAVAIR PMA-209T&E/AIR 1.6.3
<Henry.Steinfeld at navy.mil> wrote:
> When I first sent out a request for help on the topic of Khazar/Caspian
> sea foods, the question came back as to whether or not the Khazars were
> kosher.  The research I have done on this would indicate that they very
> well may have been.  This is based upon the fact that the Jews in
> Khazaria were rabbinic Jews and so followed the Talmud (Babylonian
> Talmud) which had recently been completed (about 460-490).  

> Khadir
-- 
Saint Phlip


Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 09:10:40 -0400
From: "Steinfeld,	Henry S CIV NAVAIR PMA-209T&E/AIR 1.6.3"
	<Henry.Steinfeld at navy.mil>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Was Khazar 
To: <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

As indicated in the original post, the discussion does only address the
Jews of Khazaria, however, the Muslim would also have been more
comfortable with the kosher restrictions than the Christian, though they
had their own dietary guidelines.  As to the discussion of who was
Jewish in Khazaria, there is DNA evidence to indicate that there were
two distinct Jewish elements in the Kagante.  The first was the Semitic
Jews from the middle east and other parts of Europe and Asia.  Then, as
you indicated there were a group that did convert as well.  These
converts did not do so in a vacuum, there was a significant Jewish
population before the conversion.  There is a great deal of discussion
on this point on a variety of lists, but the essence seems clear based
on DNA that there were Semitic Jews already established in the region.
The next discussion goes to the labeling of Khazar.  Originally they are
a Turkic tribal people, but later become a regional distinction is made.
Much like say we are all American even though we are made up of a number
of ethnic stocks.  So it was in Khazaria.  This is a long comment to
point to the fact that a Jew in Khazaria would have kept kosher because
for them, regardless of convert or ethnic origin, they would have
followed the law as stated in Torah and Talmud.  For that matter, the
very early proto-Christians would also have kept kosher since the
essence of conversion was to follow the law hence the root stock of the
word for zealot, or zadokite.  Both imply an intense requirement to
follow the law.

It is unfortunate that Europe did not follow the tolerance exhibited
within the Khazar Kaganate, things would have been far less bloody.  Now
I am looking for a good food selection that I can cook, keep kosher and
will last through the judging of the Persona Pentathlon!

Khadir

From: "Saint Phlip" <phlip at 99main.com>
<<< While you may have a point regarding the Jewish Khazars, the Khazars
were not a completely Jewish group. Initially, only their rulers
converted, then members of the nobility, then the common people- and not
all of the latter two groups converted. The Khazars were a very tolerant
nation, and religions of all flavors were allowed to flourish, from
their original animistic paganism, through and including Christianity
and Islam, as well as, no doubt, whatever other religion someone chose
to profess. >>>


Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:57:14 -0700
From: Susan Lin <susanrlin at gmail.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Khazars

Stefan and Saint Philip:  As you requested, here is a list of the websites I
have.  Some may be better than others and some need to be taken with a grain
of salt because they seem highly biased.  I'm sure someone will take
exception to something I've posted but regardless, for what they are worth,
here they are:

http://www.findthelinks.com/books/khazars/decline_of%20Khazars.htm
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/53/064.html
http://www.khazaria.com/
http://thor.prohosting.com/mila18/yellow/khazars.htm
http://www.imninalu.net/Khazars.htm
http://www2.nupi.no/cgi-win//Russland/etnisk_b.exe?Jewish
http://www.und.nodak.edu/dept/lang/russian/162/culture.html
http://2pic.20m.com/Jewish_Names.html
http://www.khazaria.com/brook.html
http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/html_En/03/hm3_2_13.html
http://198.62.75.1/www2/koestler/

I have a few others on Rus and Kiev and female personas that might also have
info on male personas if you want them as well.  There is (as usual - grumpy
face) precious little on female personas but I keep looking.

-Shoshanna

<the end>
Edited by Mark S. Harris	Khazars-msg	Page 7 of 7