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Khazars-msg - 8/28/10

 

A medieval Jewish kingdom in the Caspian Sea area.

 

NOTE: See also the files: fd-Khazaria-art, Jews-msg, fd-Jewish-msg, fd-Russia-msg, cl-Russia-msg, Russia-msg.

 

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NOTICE -

 

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

 

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

 

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

 

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

 

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

 

Thank you,

   Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                         Stefan at florilegium.org

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Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: sbloch at silver.cs.umanitoba.ca (Stephen Bloch)

Subject: Re: Religion, Sutton Hoo, and Bob

Organization: Computer Science, University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1993 22:38:31 GMT

 

v081lu33 at ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Kenneth C Mondschein) writes:

>      Firstly, I, like many newbies in the SCA, feel compelled to

>adopt a persona. OF course, religion was a *MAJOR* part of the Medieval

>mindset, and if I'm to have a realistic persona, should be a part of

>my mindset, too.

 

Quite true.  I haven't done a terribly good job of it; my handicap is

that I WASN'T brought up Jewish, so I don't know the traditions, the

calendar, the alphabet, etc.  But I'm working on it.

 

>      This is where the problem comes in. I'm Jewish, and there were

>not many gently-born Jews in either the Middle Ages or early Renaissance

 

True, there were "not many gently-born Jews" in most of our period,

reading "gently-born" as "lesser nobility, which everybody in the SCA

is assumed to be unless stated otherwise."  But I see nothing wrong

with considering myself to be merchant-class.  Many Jews in our period

made a living at international trade, taking advantage of the fact

that a sufficiently prominent Jew could write a letter of credit in

Paris and have it honored by the Jewish community in Damascus (or so

I've heard; does anybody have better information on this?).  If

pressed for my persona's occupation, I claim to be a cook and sometime

musician in the houses of the nobility of Cordoba; Jews are known to

have held both these types of positions.  In particular, cookery in

the Middle Ages was close kin to the practice of medicine, and the

skills of Jewish doctors were renowned around the world.

 

>I would either have to choose a personae from the Middle East, perhaps

>Byzantium, or that really obscure kingdom from around the Caspian Sea. Ergo,

>I have a little problem: I can either be compelled to burn myself at the stake,

>or have my choice of personae severely limited.

 

"that really obscure kingdom from around the Caspian Sea" is the land

of the Khazars.  Not a whole lot is known about them (partly because

the kingdom seems to have disappeared in the 10th century); an article

in TI 101 (Winter 1991) summarizes it.  Moslem Spain also has lots of

Jews in respected positions, peaking with Hasdai ibn-Shaprut, who in

the 9th century was a close personal advisor, ambassador, and doctor to

the Caliph.

 

But you can have a decent persona life in most of Christian Europe as

well: people were not burned at the stake simply for being Jewish

except in isolated cases of mob violence or the Inquisition.  Many

cities of Christian Europe had thriving Jewish communities, whose

leaders would often work out a contract with the local ruler: the

Jewish community got the personal protection of the ruler, in exchange

for providing learning and loan capital with its generally salutory

effects on the local economy.

 

>I don't see why the Church of the Sub-Genius wouldn't be period; we

>all well know Bob has time travelling abilities.

 

I think the Sub-Genius emphasis on sales and self-improvement would

find little fertile soil in the economic and social climate of the

Middle Ages.  Sad to say, I think the message of "Bob" may be one for

our own century. :-)

 

                              mar-Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib

                                      Stephen Bloch

                                 sbloch at cs.umanitoba.ca

 

 

From: sbloch at ms.uky.edu (Stephen Bloch)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Thought Experiment: Chazar Correction

Date: 3 Feb 1994 17:35:42 -0500

Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences

 

Ken Mondschein <v081lu33 at ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu> wrote:

>... Nahum said ...

>>by 993 C.E. the Chazars had been wiped out by the Russ.

>      Fortunately, I have found (in my sourcebook for my Jew in the Middle

>Ages class) tertiary evidence that the Chazars survived till the 13th century,

>(which would mean Nahum's armor *does* fit into the time period) as well as

>a letter from their King, Joseph, to a Jewish scholar in Spain. This includes

>the descent of the dynasty of the ruling house of Chasars.

 

If the book in question is "Jewish Travellers of the Middle Ages", I don't

recall any mention of the Chazars that late.  The exchange of letters

between King Joseph of the Khazars and R. Hasdai ibn-Shaprut of al-Andalus

took place in the 10th century.  (It's a fascinating letter, by the way: R.

Hasdai starts with a "return address", describing his own country in some

detail, complete with what minerals they mine and what crops they raise,

followed by detailed latitude and longitude measurements for his own

country, Constantinople, and where he thinks the Khozars are.  The

latitudes, for the most part, are correct to two or three places; the

longitudes make no sense at all.)

 

                              mar-Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib

                                      Stephen Bloch

                                  sbloch at s.ms.uky.edu

 

 

Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 13:35:43 EST

From: <Varju at aol.com>

To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Subject: Re: Mongols at Peipus

 

MHoll at aol.com writes:

 

<< Possible, but again as individuals or independent groups, since the Khazar

Khaganate disintegrated in the X century (probably dealt the fatal blow by

the Russians). >>

 

The final blow according to Stuart Legg in _The Barbarians of Asia_  was by

the influx of new Turkic peoples from the East mainly the Kipchaks, who swept

through after the Khazars had been weakened by attack from the Russians and

the Byzantine empire.  He says the Khazars were scattered, some abosorbed by

other groups, but that they remained in that region for some time in small

groups.

 

Noemi

 

 

From: msaroff.123456 at pobox.com (Matthew Saroff  (Remove .123456 to reply))

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Khazar garb/heraldry help

Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 03:57:45 GMT

 

jdmiller2 at students.wisc.edu (Jennifer D. Miller) wrote:

> dobrikin at radiant.net says...

>> 

>>Hi, as a relative newcomer I am beginning to develop my persona but I

>>am hitting a brick wall when Trying to find any detailed info.

>>My Persona (unnamed so far) is from the Khazarian Empire, southern

>>Russia (the Ukraine)  between 650 and 950. If anybody can point me to

>>any useful info it would be greatly appreciated. Feel free to e-mail

>>me at     dobrikin at radiant.net

>>Thanks in advance

>> 

>>                                           Phil

 

>Zdravstvuite!

>Come on over to the Slavic Interest Group!  We study the medieval Slavic and

>Hungarian areas that the SCA covers and have members who can help you with your

>research. All our members have experienced how difficult it can be to find

>info about medieval Slavica (I know we have people who are interested in

>Khazaria). SIG offers a free quarterly newsletter that you can access on the

>web or have surface-mailed to you.  We also maintain an electronic discussion

>group that always has interesting discussions going on.  Information on joining

>the SIG-list can be found on the main SIG page.

 

       I will make the point that the Khazars are a Turkic and

not a slavic people (in fact, they seem to be hereditary enemies).

 

       I have had a devil of a time finding stuff about living

and clothing too.

 

       Here are some web pages http://www.khazaria.com/

(probably the most extensive site)

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/6784/index.html is rather more polemic.

 

       Stay from Koestler's book, except for the bibliography.

It's garbage.  There is an interesting genetic survey refuting

the idea that Ahskenazi Jews are of Khazar extraction at

http://tarkus.pha.jhu.edu/~ethan/jFAQ.html

 

       If you want to do Khazar, you should wear lots of silk,

but EVERYONE should wear lots of silk.   ;-)

 

       There are references to their wearing long coats.  I've

been told that Ibn Faudlan's tales (he was a well travel led

arab) (sp?) and D.M. Dunlop's book "The history of the Jewish

Khazars" are very good sources.

 

 

Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 15:30:23 -0400

From: Patrick Levesque <petruvoda at videotron.ca>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] A request for sources on Khazar, or Caspian

        Sea    foods in the 7th through 11th C

To: "Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>"

        <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

The closest thing that springs to mind is 'Tender Meat Under the Saddle', a

collection of essays which examines the food habits of the nomads in the

Hungarian plains. The time period is about right too. Devra used to stock it

(it's her fault I got a copy!)?

 

You may want to check Byzantine annals - if I remember correctly they did

have diplomatic relationship with the Khazars. You will probably find a few

descriptions of customs and even eating habits, if you're lucky.

 

Petru

 

On 27/08/07 13:32, "Steinfeld,  Henry S CIV NAVAIR PMA-209T&E/AIR 1.6.3"

<Henry.Steinfeld at navy.mil> wrote:

> I did a search to see if this has come up and it has not yet.  I am

> researching my persona which is Khazar, 9th C and looking for

> appropriate foods of the region.  The Khazars resided in the Steppes

> region around the Caspian sea to Kiev.  Their influence included the

> Magyars, Huns, pre-Kievan Rus, Bulgars and were distant relatives of the

> Mongols, Semitic Jews and were considered to be a Turkic people.

> Religiously, they were Shamanists, Muslim, Christian and Jew and they

> generally lived within their Kagantate in a tolerant  peace.

> If you have sources I can investigate (preferably translated) please let

> me know.  If you have recipes from this region, that would be great, I

> would like to do the redactions.  (I will happily take redacted as well)

> So far I have found little that can be documented to the region.

> Khadir bar Yosef

 

 

Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 07:50:51 -0400

From: "Steinfeld,   Henry S CIV NAVAIR PMA-209T&E/AIR 1.6.3"

        <Henry.Steinfeld at navy.mil>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Was Khazar Kosher?

To: <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

When I first sent out a request for help on the topic of Khazar/ Caspian

sea foods, the question came back as to whether or not the Khazars were

kosher.

 

The research I have done on this would indicate that they very

well may have been.  This is based upon the fact that the Jews in

Khazaria were rabbinic Jews and so followed the Talmud (Babylonian

Talmud) which had recently been completed (about 460-490).  Those Khazar

Jews who were not Rabbinic Jews were Karites which are a strict literal

sect following the Torah only and so again would have been following the

dietary laws which would be considered kosher.  Recognizing that many of

the kosher laws and Muslim dietary restrictions are similar would make

such living, especially in any trading center or town quite possible.

Though to date I have not found any specific references to foods (other

than the dietary guidelines) an the book previously mentioned (Tender

Meats under the Saddle) I can see no reason to think they (the Khazars)

would have not followed the Law as given in the Torah and Talmud.

 

Khadir

 

 

Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 13:28:28 -0400

From: "Saint Phlip" <phlip at 99main.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Was Khazar Kosher?

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

While you may have a point regarding the Jewish Khazars, the Khazars

were not a completely Jewish group. Initially, only their rulers

converted, then members of the nobility, then the common people- and

not all of the latter two groups converted. The Khazars were a very

tolerant nation, and religions of all flavors were allowed to

flourish, from their original animistic paganism, through and

including Christianity and Islam, as well as, no doubt, whatever other

religion someone chose to profess.

 

On 9/24/07, Steinfeld,  Henry S CIV NAVAIR PMA-209T&E/AIR 1.6.3

<Henry.Steinfeld at navy.mil> wrote:

> When I first sent out a request for help on the topic of Khazar/Caspian

> sea foods, the question came back as to whether or not the Khazars were

> kosher.  The research I have done on this would indicate that they very

> well may have been.  This is based upon the fact that the Jews in

> Khazaria were rabbinic Jews and so followed the Talmud (Babylonian

> Talmud) which had recently been completed (about 460-490).  

 

> Khadir

--

Saint Phlip

 

 

Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 09:10:40 -0400

From: "Steinfeld,   Henry S CIV NAVAIR PMA-209T&E/AIR 1.6.3"

        <Henry.Steinfeld at navy.mil>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Was Khazar

To: <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

 

As indicated in the original post, the discussion does only address the

Jews of Khazaria, however, the Muslim would also have been more

comfortable with the kosher restrictions than the Christian, though they

had their own dietary guidelines.  As to the discussion of who was

Jewish in Khazaria, there is DNA evidence to indicate that there were

two distinct Jewish elements in the Kagante.  The first was the Semitic

Jews from the middle east and other parts of Europe and Asia.  Then, as

you indicated there were a group that did convert as well.  These

converts did not do so in a vacuum, there was a significant Jewish

population before the conversion.  There is a great deal of discussion

on this point on a variety of lists, but the essence seems clear based

on DNA that there were Semitic Jews already established in the region.

The next discussion goes to the labeling of Khazar.  Originally they are

a Turkic tribal people, but later become a regional distinction is made.

Much like say we are all American even though we are made up of a number

of ethnic stocks.  So it was in Khazaria.  This is a long comment to

point to the fact that a Jew in Khazaria would have kept kosher because

for them, regardless of convert or ethnic origin, they would have

followed the law as stated in Torah and Talmud.  For that matter, the

very early proto-Christians would also have kept kosher since the

essence of conversion was to follow the law hence the root stock of the

word for zealot, or zadokite.  Both imply an intense requirement to

follow the law.

 

It is unfortunate that Europe did not follow the tolerance exhibited

within the Khazar Kaganate, things would have been far less bloody.  Now

I am looking for a good food selection that I can cook, keep kosher and

will last through the judging of the Persona Pentathlon!

 

Khadir

 

From: "Saint Phlip" <phlip at 99main.com>

<<< While you may have a point regarding the Jewish Khazars, the Khazars

were not a completely Jewish group. Initially, only their rulers

converted, then members of the nobility, then the common people- and not

all of the latter two groups converted. The Khazars were a very tolerant

nation, and religions of all flavors were allowed to flourish, from

their original animistic paganism, through and including Christianity

and Islam, as well as, no doubt, whatever other religion someone chose

to profess. >>>

 

 

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:57:14 -0700

From: Susan Lin <susanrlin at gmail.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Khazars

 

Stefan and Saint Philip:  As you requested, here is a list of the websites I

have. Some may be better than others and some need to be taken with a grain

of salt because they seem highly biased.  I'm sure someone will take

exception to something I've posted but regardless, for what they are worth,

here they are:

 

http://www.findthelinks.com/books/khazars/decline_of%20Khazars.htm

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/53/064.html

http://www.khazaria.com/

http://thor.prohosting.com/mila18/yellow/khazars.htm

http://www.imninalu.net/Khazars.htm

http://www2.nupi.no/cgi-win//Russland/etnisk_b.exe?Jewish

http://www.und.nodak.edu/dept/lang/russian/162/culture.html

http://2pic.20m.com/Jewish_Names.html

http://www.khazaria.com/brook.html

http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/html_En/03/hm3_2_13.html

http://198.62.75.1/www2/koestler/

 

I have a few others on Rus and Kiev and female personas that might also have

info on male personas if you want them as well.  There is (as usual - grumpy

face) precious little on female personas but I keep looking.

 

-Shoshanna

 

<the end>



Formatting copyright © Mark S. Harris (THLord Stefan li Rous).
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Comments to the Editor: stefan at florilegium.org