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Jews-msg - 9/29/14


Medieval Jews, Jewish personas.


NOTE: See also the files: Khazars-msg, fd-Jewish-msg, Islam-msg, Middle-East-msg, Arabs-msg, Palestine-msg.





This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.


This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org


I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.


The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.


Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).


Thank you,

   Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                         Stefan at florilegium.org



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca,rec.heraldry,alt.heraldry.sca

From: sbloch at silver.cs.umanitoba.ca (Stephen Bloch)

Subject: Re: Jewish heraldry?

Organization: Computer Science, University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada

Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1993 23:32:03 GMT


sbraslau at uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.EDU (Stacy Braslau-Schneck) writes:

>I read somewhere that Jews did not usually have a heraldic device of their

>own, but instead used the device of the town in which they lived - at

>least in Spain.


As I mentioned in another post a few minutes ago, the Jewish community

in a city of Christian Europe typically had a contract binding them

personally to the local ruler.  The Jewish community was the ruler's

"property" in almost the same sense as his personal servants were.  As

such, it makes sense for them to claim that bond heraldically.


I have seen the flag of the Jewish community of Prague (the flag

currently hanging in the synagogue dates from the 16th century),

which apparently was used whenever the community processed to the

castle to renew their contract with the King, to ask him a boon as a

group, or anything like that.  (Pause while I go dig out the slide I

took of it....)  This flag (or the part of it I can see in the slide

without using a projector) doesn't have any obvious symbols of Prague,

just a Jew's hat within a Star of David within a bordure of Hebrew

script. (Background maroon, charges and script gold.)


I think the main reason "Jews didn't usually have a heraldic device of

their own" is that very few of them were of noble families.  Jewish

communities, and trade guilds with significant Jewish membership,

certainly had group heraldic symbols (which we would call "badges" in

SCA heraldry).


>As a Jewish persona from Spain, would I be allowed to use the real devices

>of Leon or Toledo or wherever?  Or the "real" device of my local barony

>(which seems to consist of a completely un-period Hawaiian outrigger

>canoe, so looks very un-Medival, at least to me)?


Well, the outrigger canoe probably dates into or before the European

Middle Ages, but I agree it would certainly look jarring at an

allegedly European feast or court.


More to the point, read the article on "Flags and Banners in the SCA"

in Compleat Anachronist 50, "Armorial Display".  It points out that

many Kingdoms (and perhaps Baronies) have agreed to allow any citizen

thereof to use the group badge in the "hoist" of their own standards,

where there would have been a national insignia in the Middle Ages.


Arval? Any words of wisdom on this?


                        mar-Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib

                              Stephen Bloch

                           sbloch at cs.umanitoba.ca



From: hjfeld at acs.bu.edu (harold feld)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Jews in the Middle Ages (was:Religion, Sutton Hoo, and Bob)

Date: 15 Mar 93 00:44:50 GMT

Organization: Boston University, Boston, MA, USA


Unto all who read these words, greetings from Yaakov!


In article <C3s8nq.vE at acsu.buffalo.edu> v081lu33 at ubvmsd.cc.buffalo.edu (Kenneth C Mondschein) writes:


>     Firstly, I, like many newbies in the SCA, feel compelled to

>adopt a persona. OF course, religion was a *MAJOR* part of the Medieval

>mindset, and if I'm to have a realistic persona, should be a part of

>my mindset, too.

>     This is where the problem comes in. I'm Jewish, and there were

>not many gently-born Jews in either the Middle Ages or early Renaissance

>(I'm not sure when families such as the Rothschilds began to gain influence).

>I would either have to choose a personae from the Middle East, perhaps

>Byzantium, or that really obscure kingdom from around the Caspian Sea. Ergo,

>I have a little problem: I can either be compelled to burn myself at the stake,

>or have my choice of personae severely limited.

>     (Of course, I'd also be more than happy just dressing up in armor

>and concentrating on the stick jock aspects of this, but, hey, that's just me.


I feel compelled to respond to this, as a I hear it fairly frequently.

The range of the Jewish experience in the Middle Ages is far more

complex than most people believe.

In Europe, the Jewish experience is marked by periods of tolerance

and periods of oppression.  Anyone who wishes to select a

European Jewish persona can manage to find a tolerant zone with

a bit of research, or can assume that they are living in one.

As a genearl rule, things are good in Europe after the Visogoths

and before the Crusades.  The Crusades ushered in an era of the

erosion of Jewish/Christian relations and the Plague finished it.

It is after the Plague that the Jewish/Christian relationship is

characterized in terms of the ghetto and little or no social

interaction. At least in Central Europe.  In Eastern Europe, things

go reasonably well until the Chmelniski Pogroms of 1648-9 (known

in Jewish history as Tach v'Tat, after the years in the Jewish

Calendar.) After this, things remain generally awful and oppressive

through to the Enlightment and the 20th century.


Of course, the above represents a gross over-simplification.  My point

is merely that Jewish history does not present the uniform picture of

oppression and suffering most believe it does.  Rather, the Jews swung

from the good times to the really bad times, evolving a richness of

culture and experience that are seldom appreciated today even by

Jews ( at #$! Socialist Zionists!).


Yaakov (who could go on at length but knows better)



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca,rec.heraldry,alt.heraldry.sca

From: mittle at watson.ibm.com (Arval Benicoeur)

Subject: Re: Jewish heraldry?

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 93 13:59:34 GMT

Organization: IBM T. J. Watson Research


Stacy Braslau-Schneck writes:

> >I read somewhere that Jews did not usually have a heraldic device of their

> >own, but instead used the device of the town in which they lived - at

> >least in Spain.


And Stephen Bloch writes:


> As I mentioned in another post a few minutes ago, the Jewish community in

> a city of Christian Europe typically had a contract binding them

> personally to the local ruler....  I think the main reason "Jews didn't

> usually have a heraldic device of their own" is that very few of them

> were of noble families.


Stephen, I know your learning in this field, but I believe you are

over-generalizing. The belief that Stacy mentioned in widespread, but

inaccurate. I had the pleasure of editting an excellent article on Jewish

heraldry in the Middle Ages, written for publication in the proceedings of

the Known World Heraldic Symposium (of the SCA) by Lord Eleazar ha-Levi.

He found extensive evidence of Jewish nobility, Jewish knights, and Jewish

armigers. His article appears in the 1989 proceedings, which are in print

and available from Free Trumpet Press.


Arval Benicoeur                                       mittle at watson.ibm.com



From: velde2 at jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Francois Velde)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca,rec.heraldry,alt.heraldry.sca

Subject: Re: Jewish heraldry?

Date: 15 Mar 1993 09:39:22 -0500

Organization: Homewood Academic Computing, Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, Md, USA


sbloch at silver.cs.umanitoba.ca (Stephen Bloch) writes:

>sbraslau at uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.EDU (Stacy Braslau-Schneck) writes:

>>I read somewhere that Jews did not usually have a heraldic device of their

>>own, but instead used the device of the town in which they lived - at

>>least in Spain.

>As I mentioned in another post a few minutes ago, the Jewish community

>in a city of Christian Europe typically had a contract binding them

>personally to the local ruler.  The Jewish community was the ruler's

>"property" in almost the same sense as his personal servants were.  As

>such, it makes sense for them to claim that bond heraldically.

>[flag of the community of Prague described]

>I think the main reason "Jews didn't usually have a heraldic device of

>their own" is that very few of them were of noble families.  Jewish

>communities, and trade guilds with significant Jewish membership,

>certainly had group heraldic symbols (which we would call "badges" in

>SCA heraldry).


Once again, the right to bear arms was not limited to nobles: so Jews,

without being nobles, could bear arms, at least in principle.


In practice I can give two examples of coats of arms belonging to Jews:


1) Kalonymos ben Todros, a.k.a. Momet Tauros, living in Narbonne around

1300, had a lion rampant on his shield.


2) Nostradamus, the famous astrologer, bore: Gules, a wheel broken

between each spoke or. Since the color of the charge was too clear a

reminder of the bearer's origins, a descendant had the arms changed to

quarterly, 1 and 4 Argent a wheel sabel; 2 and 3 Argent an eagle's head

erased sable.


Reference: R. Mathieu (1946), _Le Systeme Heraldique Francais_, p. 41.




      Francois Velde



Article 35299 of rec.org.sca:

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca,rec.heraldry,alt.heraldry.sca

From: sbloch at silver.cs.umanitoba.ca (Stephen Bloch)

Subject: Re: Jewish heraldry?

Organization: Computer Science, University of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Canada


Arval Benicoeur and Francois Velde very gently correct my


JiE>I think the main reason "Jews didn't usually have a heraldic device of

JiE>their own" is that very few of them were of noble families.  Jewish

JiE>communities, and trade guilds with significant Jewish membership,

JiE>certainly had group heraldic symbols (which we would call "badges" in

JiE>SCA heraldry).


FV>Once again, the right to bear arms was not limited to nobles: so Jews,

FV>without being nobles, could bear arms, at least in principle.


I had meant to say something to this effect, but it got lost between

conception and keyboard.  My IMPRESSION is that in most of Europe, in

most of the Middle Ages, there was no formal prohibition against

commoners bearing heraldic arms, but the entities who had reason to do

so were predominantly either noble families, professional guilds, or

"communities", e.g. the city of Hamburg or the Jewish community of

Prague. Owain Oxherd (or even Sam Shopkeeper) had no need for a

personal or family coat of arms, and wouldn't be likely to go to the

trouble of designing, emblazoning, and publicizing one.


FV>In practice I can give two examples of coats of arms belonging to Jews:



There are at least two examples reprinted (in B&W, alas) in Rudin's

"History of Jewish Costume".  One is an heraldic device, painted on a

shield, whose major charges are three Jewish hats (the sailor-style

version, not the broad-brimmed and spiked version); Rudin suggests

this device was not actually of a Jewish family but rather a cant on

the family name "Jude".  The second is a seal, probably of a Jewish

family or individual, consisting of three Jewish hats (broad-brimmed,

spiked and balled) conjoined at the balls.


Arval said something about there being no lack of Jewish nobles,

Jewish knights, etc. in the historical record, and recommended an

article on the subject in the 1989 KWHS Proceedings.  I've heard of

this article, and have intended to acquire and read it for some

time, but for a deplorable shortage of round tuits.  Thanks for

reminding me about it.


                        mar-Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib


                              Stephen Bloch

                           sbloch at cs.umanitoba.ca



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca,rec.heraldry,alt.heraldry.sca

From: nusbache at epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher)

Subject: Re: Jewish heraldry?

Organization: University of Toronto - VELUT ABOR AEVO

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1993 02:26:01 GMT


In article <C3yGu3.HHw at ccu.umanitoba.ca> sbloch at silver.cs.umanitoba.ca (Stephen Bloch) writes:


>... Owain Oxherd (or even Sam Shopkeeper) had no need for a

>personal or family coat of arms, and wouldn't be likely to go to the

>trouble of designing, emblazoning, and publicizing one.


Nobody told Sam Shopkeeper how unlikely it was ... bourgeois families,

including Jews, went to the trouble of designing, emblazoning and

publicising coats of arms throughout the Middle Ages and Renaissance.

Italian jewry was notably rich in heraldry.


Aryk Nusbacher



From: Suze.Hammond at f56.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Suze Hammond)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Religion, Sutton Hoo, and Bob

Date: 20 Mar 93 14:30:00 GMT


KCM> Greetings from Aethelmark!


KCM> This is in response to all the hubub over religion and the SCA.

KCM> SAs usual, I feel compelled to put my two farthings into the matter.

KCM> Firstly, I, like many newbies in the SCA, feel compelled to

KCM> adopt a persona. OF course, religion was a *MAJOR* part of the

KCM> Medieval mindset, and if I'm to have a realistic persona, should be a

KCM> part of my mindset, too.

KCM> This is where the problem comes in. I'm Jewish, and there were

KCM> not many gently-born Jews in either the Middle Ages or early

KCM> Renaissance (I'm not sure when families such as the Rothschilds began

KCM> to gain influence). I would either have to choose a personae from the

KCM> Middle East, perhaps Byzantium, or that really obscure kingdom from

KCM> around the Caspian Sea.


Not necessarily. Depending upon your persona and era, how about the Langue

d'Oc area of early medieval France? The kingdom that existed for some time

between the France of then and what would become Spain had a large and

influential population of Jews of all classes. It was later "crusaded"

against, not just because of theological idiocies about Jews, but because

the local Christians were seriously "heretical", but in its heyday, it was

a great place to be a European Jew! And a bit later, Scotland welcomed Jews

as they were chased out of England. Although that Jew would not likely have

been a large landowner, and a knight in our usual SCA sense, he would very

likely have been a university scholar and respected teacher. Anti-semitism

didn't really hit Scotland until the Reformation, and even then it seems to

have been less of a dose... The Scots seem to have always taken the tack that

being a Scot was such a great advantage that a few hundred (later thousand,

much later wives of different colors) foreigners couldn't hurt anything.


I don't think they were any less biased, just less threatened...


KCM>       Point three: I've been reading all the Sutton Hoo debates and

KCM> reports, and I began to think: hmmn, when is a grave not a grave? Or,

KCM> why are there  personal effects laid out sort-of like they were on a

KCM> corpse, but no organic remains were found?

KCM>       The answer seems connected to something that we do today: an empty

KCM> coffin. The people who buried their dead at Sutton Hoo were evidently

KCM> a seagoing people, so perhaps the chieftan whose grave the

KCM> archaeologists have been digging up was lost at sea. Or perhaps it was

KCM> some religious  rite (grave of the Unknown Celt?).


One of the better theories, in fact. However, in long-buried remains several

things can happen, depending on soil chemistry. In the peat bogs, the bones

and most plant-derived clothing dissolve, leaving an empty skin with hair!


Bury the same sort of corpse in a hollowed-out oak log and you get clothes,

some bones depending upon how long buried and how much water gets in, but

the flesh and skin are turned into a grey soap-like material.


This is why it's such a shame Sutton Hoo was excavated under less-than-

perfect conditions, and before we knew all this soil chemistry stuff...

Now, a good archaeological forensics team could look at the stains in the

soil around the grave goods, and tell you if a body had dissolved, or if the

stains were only iron and other rotted hardware. With Sutton Hoo we may

never know for sure.


... Moreach NicMhaolain



From: v081lu33 at ubvmsc.cc.buffalo.edu (Kenneth C Mondschein)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Renaissance Samauri Jews Revisited

Keywords: Return of the Pestering Newbie

Date: 1 Apr 93 22:49:00 GMT

Organization: University at Buffalo


Dear Gentles,


      I just had a talk with my World Civilization prof and TA, and I

confirmed a couple of things:

      1.) Jews were fairly tolerated in such Renaissance Italy states as

Venice. It was plausible that a Jewish merchant could rise to a high level.

      2.) There was trading and contact to some extent between the West and

East between 1350-1450 (remember, this is post-Marco Polo).

      3.) A Jewish merchant would be more likely to have contacts in the Mid

East (a vital place for trading bases) than, say, someone with no relatives in

Eretz Yisroel.

      Therefore, Renaissance Samauri Jews are (I think) not inconceivable...

it's CREATIVE anachronism, right?!?!

      Happy Easter and Pesach, and I hope to be meeting the NYC chapter



      Ken Mondschein

      Tristan Clair de Lune



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: bnostran at lynx.dac.northeastern.edu (Solveig Throndardottir)

Subject: Re: Renaissance Samauri Jews Revisited

Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA

Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1993 07:26:15 GMT


Noble Cousins!


It is not necessary to look to Italy for a source for East Asian Jews.

When Marco Polo arrived in Kahn Balik (the capital of China at the

time) there was a thriving Jewish colony there and in several other

Chinese cities some of which were coastal.  The chinese jews were

primarily engaged in various sorts of trade.  There are two paper

back books available on Chinese jews:


Michael Pollak, Mandarins, Jews and Missionaries

Jews in Old China


Perhaps the largest or at least most interesting Jewish colony was

at Kaifeng.  There were also colonies of Nestorian Christians and

Muslims. The Muslims were distinguished from Jews in China by the

color of their hats.  Muslims wore white hats and Jews blue hats.


Thus, it is only necessary for Jews to migrate across the sea of

Japan to arrive in Japan.  Further, social status was rather fluid

until the (post-period) Tokugawa Bakufu.  Thus, it is conceivable

that that there were jewish samurai.  This is in fact the subject

of a Japanese Manga series which bases its premis partly on a

superficial resemblence between religious practicies at a certain

Japanese religious cite and jewish religious practices (specifically

wearing teffilin and blowing the shofar.)


                              Your Humble Servant

                              Solveig Throndardottir

                              Totally Ignorant



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: mjc+ at cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio)

Subject: Shabbos and events

Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1993 17:09:15 GMT


Greetings from Ellisif!


I have a question, inspired by the recent discussions of dealing with Shabbos,

for those few who have Jewish persona who are not mundanely Jewish: why do

you assume that events are on Shabbos?


We modern people hold events on Saturday because that is convenient for us.

People who are mundanely Jews need to therefore observe Shabbos.  (And

similarly, for those weekend events, the mundanely Christian have

restrictions.) However, is it necessarily the case that the day we are

recreating was Shabbos?


Examples: 12th night would have been celebrated on 12th night, and not the

nearest weekend, yes?  The feast of St. So-and-So would have been celebrated

on that day.  I know nothing about whether there were traditional days for

tourneys (in certain times and places), but it's a research area that might

yield some interesting results.


Given this, would it not be plausible, from a persona point of view, to

assume that Shabbos is on whatever dates it falls on in the year your

persona thinks it is, and not when it falls in 1993?  Would this be a way

for those with Jewish persona to be able to participate in Saturday events?

(Of course, if your persona's current year is synced with the modern year,

there's no effect.)


Yes, I realize that not everyone knows what year it is persona-wise, and not

everyone even has a developed persona.  But the people without developed

personas probably aren't facing this problem.


And a related question: how do those SCA folk who are mundanely religious but

whose personas aren't (at least in that religion) handle the need to observe

at events?  Is it sort of like running out to the car to get your armor --

something you break persona for just because you have to?


Just curious.


Ellisif/Monica, the latter of whom is not in the least religious

mjc at cs.cmu.edu



From: Bjorn at f120.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Bjorn)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Real Names in the SCA

Date: Mon, 03 May 1993 15:18:00 -0500


Nahum <FNKLSHTN at acfcluster.nyu.edu> said:


f> When I started thinking about registering my name some helpful heralds

f> told me that the easiest way to document a Jewish name is to send a

f> copy of a Bris or Bar Mitzva certificate (or a conversion certificate

f> for those who werre adopted into the tribe).


The absolutely easiest way to document a Jewish name is to show its use

in the Jewish scriptures.  Since bibles can be found in almost any library,

this provides a readily accessable reference.  If a particular name does

not occur in the bible, then the method above would be the next easiest.


Bjorn Bjorklund, Storvik, Atlantia



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: fnklshtn at ACF1.NYU.EDU

Subject: Real Names in the SCA (documenting from the Bible)

Organization: New York University, NY, NY

Date: Wed, 5 May 1993 01:36:09 GMT


Bjorn states: "The absolutely easiest way to document a Jewish name is to

show its use in the Jewish scriptures."

Just to add a caveat, if you use a translation the name may often be so

anglicised (or translated to whatever language) that it bears very little

relation to the actual Jewish name.


Jeremiah - Yeremiahu

Solomon - Shlomo

Elija    - Eliahu

Et cetera.



Nahum haKuzar (we Kuzars is not known for our scholarship, but we mean well)

<FNKLSHTN at acfcluster.nyu.edu>



From: cozzlab at garnet.berkeley.edu ()

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Real Names in the SCA (documenting from the Bible)

Date: 5 May 1993 12:56:50 GMT

Organization: University of California, Berkeley


In article <C6J5sA.564 at cmcl2.nyu.edu> fnklshtn at ACF1.NYU.EDU writes:

>Bjorn states: "The absolutely easiest way to document a Jewish name is to

>show its use in the Jewish scriptures."

>Just to add a caveat, if you use a translation the name may often be so

>anglicised (or translated to whatever language) that it bears very little

>relation to the actual Jewish name.


Not just anglicized ... well-worn Bible names have made the transition

Hebrew > Aramaic > Greek > Latin > Anglo-Saxon > Middle English >

Modern English, with at least the opportunity for sound changes at

every stage.


Take the name of the patriarch called, in English Bibles, Jacob:

The Hebrew is something like Yaakov (others will correct me as needed);

the Greek is Iako:b (where o: is long o, written omega); the Latin

is Jacobus.  And Modern English calls him Jacob.  Fine.  However,

the brother of St. John, whose bones wound up at Compostela, is

known as James.  I don't know, though it would be interesting to find

out, what peculiar string of sound changes produced James.


Even the Spanish "Santiago" is easier to figure out: there's a line

in "El Cid:"


Los moros llaman Mafomat, y los cristianos sante Yague.

The Moors call on Mohammed, and the Christians on Saint James.


Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin            Dorothy J. Heydt

Mists/Mists/West              UC Berkeley

Argent, a cross forme'e sable       cozzlab at garnet.berkeley.edu



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: mittle at watson.ibm.com (Arval Balance)

Subject: Re: Real Names in the SCA (documenting from the Bible)

Date: Thu, 6 May 1993 20:38:08 GMT

Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research


Pagan asked:


> I'll comment in haste and document at leisure, but I believe you'll find that

> James and Jacob are etymologically the "same" name.  I suspect you'll also

> find that anyone in the OT called Jacob was known to friends and family by

> the same name as anyone in the NT called James, in much the same way that OT

> Miriams are NT Marys.


> Can someone tell me whether this is because one lot were translated from

> Hebrew and the other lot from Greek?  Or was it just a tradition in

> translation?


I discussed James/Jacob in another posting.  Withycombe has this to say

about Mary, Miriam et al.


Miriam: Hebrew... Miriam is the form of the name used in most versions of

the Bible for the sister of Moses and Aaron.  It came into use as a

christian name in England after the Reformation, and is a favourite name

among the Jews.


Mary: Hebrew... Miriam... is the same name.  The consonants of the Hebrew

word are MRYM, and when vowels were inserted in about the 7th C AD, it

became Miryam; the Septuagint, however, vocalized it as Mariam, and this is

the usual form in he Greek New Testament both for the Blessed Virgin and

for Mary sister of Lazarus, while Maria is most often used for the other

Marys.  The Vulgate (probably owing to a mistaken idea that Mariam was an

accusative in -am) adopted Maria for all of them.  


She goes on to note that Mary appears in England as early as 1082, but did

not become common until the end of the 12th century, with diminutives

Mariot, Marion, Mall, Moll, Mariota, Malkyn.  Elsewhere, she notes that

Josephus renders the Hebrew name as Mariamne.


Arval Balance                                         mittle at watson.ibm.com



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: mittle at watson.ibm.com (Arval Benicoeur)

Subject: Re: Real Names in the SCA

Date: Wed, 5 May 1993 19:37:18 GMT

Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research


Greetings from Arval!


Bjorn wrote:


> The absolutely easiest way to document a Jewish name is to show its use

> in the Jewish scriptures.  


And Cathan wrote:


> A bris or Bar Mitzva certificate may be the easiest way to document a

> Jewish name, but you don't have to use your own.  Any Bris or Bar Mitzva

> certificate would have the same value.


I'd like to make a few points.  


A name on a bris certificate in not necessarily a period Jewish name:

Modern Israelis have invented _many_ new Hebrew names, usually by using

plant, animal, or gem nouns as given names.  As with any other modern name

stock, jsut because it is traditional does not mean it is medieval.  A bris

certificate is no better as documentation than a driver's license.


A name in the Bible - New, Old, Quran, or Apocrypha - is not necessarily a

medieval name.  As long as the name is used for a human being, it will

probably be acceptable under the College's rules for submissions, but that

doesn't mean that it was a name used in medieval Europe.  Among Christians,

only a very few Old Testament were used before the very end of our period.

Among Jews and Moslems, many Old Testament names remained in use, but not

all. The best way to choose a name for SCA use is to pick something that

you've found in medieval literature or history.



Cathan also wrote:


> Also, even the certificate (assuming that it were your own) would NOT

> mean that you could use your WHOLE name, merely an element of it...  You

> are allowed under the current rules of submission to use a _single_

> element of your given name...


You can _use_ anything you want to use.  The rules for submissions do not

regulate usage, just registration.  If you want to use your entire mundane

name or a religious name as your SCA name, and it is a proper medieval

name, then use it.  


Arvaldus d'Espas Nord                                 mittle at watson.ibm.com



From: hjfeld at acs2.bu.edu (harold feld)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: America (long; sorry)

Date: 21 May 93 17:40:00 GMT

Organization: Boston University, Boston, MA, USA


Unto all who read these words, greetings from Yaakov!  Long has it been since I have had leisure to partake of the intellectual pleasures of this forum, and hope that what I may now say has not been said now so many times as to become burdensome and repetetive.  I must also confess that I missed the original post.  But I could not stop myself when seeing the most beauteous, knowledgable, and curteous Angharad holding forth on a topic on which I may claim somewhat less ignorance than I usually must admit.


In article <1993May14.001520.13476 at mintaka.lcs.mit.edu>, greg at silver.lcs.mit.edu (Hossein Ali Qomi (mka Gregory F. Rose)) writes:

|> Greetings all, especially Nahum haZev of Kuzaristan, from Angharad ver'

|> Rhuawn, posting from Hossein's account since her feed has gone down.


|> In a thoughtful response, Nahum writes of my posting,


|> >Re. Arrogance: The original post that I was commenting on had made a broad

|> >statement that names in period have no meaning. The term "period" to me,

|> >implies "time" not place. If he would have said "Europe" he would have been

|> >right (though not completely - if you consider the Jews - as I demonstrated

|> >in that post).


|> I agree that "period" would normally mean time -- but the posting had to do

|> with SCA naming traditions.  In that context, if it is not part of the usual

|> SCA area as well as time, it doesn't seem to me that there's anything wrong

|> with leaving it out, or any particular reason to explain why it has been

|> left out.  (As to the significance or lack of it of Jewish names in period:

|> I leave this to others who know more of it than I.  But while changing

|> orthography and pronunciation to fit local languages is a widespread

|> Jewish practice then and now, I have never heard of a Jew _translating_

|> his/her name into the local vernacular for use, which is what that posting

|> argued against.  Do you know of instances of this?)


Many, period examples of this exist in both Christendom and the lands of Al-Islam. In Christendom, Jews signed legal documents with both Hebrew and latin versions of their names.  Period Jewish seals reflect this by frequently having both names. The design has a nice symetry, since the writings run in opposite directions.  Typically, the latin (or vernacular on some German seals) version the first name and |(if there is one) surname, but not necessarily the patronimic.  Thus, if I had a seal, it might rea

d (along the bottom edge) Iaccobus Orientalis and (along the top edge) Yaakov HaMizrachi ben Avraham. I don't have my documentation with me, but I can look it up when I'm home if people are interested.  


Of course, we cannot tell from this what names people used in conversation.  For all we know, Jews used their vernacular names all the time when dealing with non-Jews. (Today, for example, I am known to the non-SCA world as "Harold Feld", the name Harold is derived from the Yiddish 'Hirsch,' which comes from the Hebrew 'tzvi', meaning deer (the animal, but in the poetic/liturgical hebrew of the middle ages it can also mean 'precious.')  If I am in Israel, I'm 'Tzvi', and if I'm called to the torah or signing a formal Jewish document, I'm

Tzvi Yaakov ben Avraham Arye.

In the Islamic world, Moslems refered to Jews by their arabic names. (I have somehwere a poem written by an Arab in praise of R' Moses ben Maimon, it uses his Arabic name.)


As for the meaning of names, there are others who may discourse on them more than I. Many Jewish names in period were biblical, and the Bible gives the reason they were given to the original person.  (ex: Avraham=Av hamon goiyim= founder of many nations. ex: And he was covered with hair, therefore was he named 'Esau' (which means 'hair').  Some names come from the title of a persons work, especially if they were famous for it in their own time. e.g. Keseph Mishne (a commentator on Maimonides). People were

also called by an acronym of their given name (Rambam=R' Moshe ben Maimon) or people were given a nickname relating to their life (Rashi was called by his grandchildren (in their commentaries) as 'Koontrus' (notebook) because of his habit of leaving out study books for them.  People were also known as 'of a place' or 'profession.'


|> -- Angharad/Terry


In Service,

Yaakov HaMizrachi



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: nusbache at epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher)

Subject: Re: Jewish garb and period symbols of fealty

Organization: University of Toronto - EPAS

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1993 18:03:59 GMT

Keywords: Jewish,garb,fealty


In article <21hke7$9k1 at usenet.rpi.edu> butlej at aix.rpi.edu (Jennifer Ann Butler) writes:


>     I was wondering if anyone would be able to tell me some good

>sources of information on the type of garb/clothing that a Jewish

>person would wear in England/London around 1500-1600. I read that

>Jewish people were not looked favorably on and I heard that this might even

>include them wearing clothing that would definately tell other people that

>'Hey, I am Jewish.'


There were no Jews allowed in England between 1290 and 1656.  As such,

any Jews in England (and there were still Jews in England, though damned

few), were necessarily crypto-Jews.  By the 16th century, there were

Spanish, Portugese and Dutch Jews doing business in London, and some

settled there; and the governor of one of the Channel Islands in the

16th century was apparently a Jew, but they did not practice their

religion openly.


Elsewhere in Europe, Jews in the 16th century had largely been

permitted to abandon the old Jews' marks such as the yellow circle and

the pointed hat.  The scholar's biretta was very commonly worn among

Jews, however -- almost as distinctive as the kippah is today.


>     Also, what would a person (servant,etc) wear to show that

>they are working for/in a certain household. (Also around 1500-1600

>but in Italy). WOuld they wear baldrics, badges, braided ribbons around

>their shoulders, a necklace or ring? Any help here?


Things to look for are livery uniforms, big ciphers (like a

monogrammed sweater), and medallions.  A "baldric" in the sense of a

cross-sash is possible -- the rest of Europe was using them as a

military identification sign at the time.  Hanging a sword off of a

shoulder strap was not especially fashionable in the 16th century, though.


Braided ribbons around the shoulder, called an "aguillette" when worn

by military aides-de-camp, or "chicken guts" as I belive the Yanks

call them, originated later as part of a horse-groom's horse-holding

equipment. The smaller cords which just go around the shoulder,

called a fourragere by the Yanks, and a lanyard or whistle cord by the

rest of the English-speaking world, date to the 19th century, when

they were intended to hold an officer's whistle.





Subject: Jewdaism in SCA

From: fnklshtn

Date: 11 Aug 1993 06:27:04 GMT


Shalom David!


The Jewish culture of the middle ages was rich, varied, and is easier to

reasearch than many other cultures as we tend to be annoyingly literate.

(and Jewdaism forbids throwing away writing with G-d's name on it)

Persona play does not need to be extreme unless you want it to be -

No one will grumble if you eat at a feast (except people that are probably

not fun to play with anyhow).

If you keep Kosher for real (or wish to play at it) - go off-board

you don't get to taste the various foods but you get to participate

in the rest of the fun.

Alternatively, take Daniels example and eat only vegetables (of course, if

you are mundanely Kosher this alternative wont work).

Most importantly, pick a good Jewish name, wear distinctive clothing

(I still have not seen anyone in a yellow cone hat - not being European it

is not appropriate to me, but I'd love to see them pop up every so often)

do your reasearch, and sticjk in a grumble a or two every so often

(kvetch that is)



   COME TO THE SHABBOS SERVICES (definitely one Friday night, hopefully

       the others as well)

See me or Yaakov haMizrahi for details.

I am camping in Ostgardr. My buckler has an immage iof a Lion and

the letters Mem - Kaf - Beis - Yod (color is natural wood)

The tent next to mine belongs to Tristan (how a nice Jewish boy got

such a Goish name I'll never know). His shield is heater shaped.

It is purple, with the immage of a white, winged sperm (all right, he

maintains it's not a sperm - but it sure looks like one).


G-d's peace to you!

Nahum benGershom haZev of Kuzaristan <FNKLSHTN at acfcluster.nyu.edu>



From: moonman at amiganet.chi.il.us (Craig Levin)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: JUDAISM IN SCA?

Date: 11 Aug 93 14:38:13 CST

Organization: Amiga Network Information Systems


dzinner at desire.wright.edu writes:


>I have a serious question.  I have a lot of friends in SCA, so I know a little

>about it.  It seems to me that SCA is an idealized anachronism, and that's

>just fine.  But this idealization is still based on an historical reality-

>a Medieval, Christian society.  What I want to know is, how can I incorporate

>my Jewishness into SCA?  To be historically accurate, a medieval Jew wouldn't

>even eat at the same table with Christians.  I know that SCA is (in part) in

>fun, but it has taken our people a few millenia to get to where we can be

>proud of our religion and heritage, and I don't want to bury it for what

>otherwise seems like a great way to pass the time.  I would be especially

>interested inhearing from any Jews already.

>               David Zinner


       Hi there! I'm mundanely Reform, and so I'm personally

willing to bend the rules to begin with. As for my persona, he's

a Portuguese gentleman of partially Jewish descent-many Iberian

nobles had at least one ancestor of Moorish or Jewish descent-and

since his time is pre-Inquisition (in Portugal, the whole mess

started after Spain made some rather impolite threats around the

expulsion in 1492, and even then...), he really doesn't consider

faith to be much of an issue.


       I know some folk out there who try to be strictly Orthodox

in re-enactment, and I have a great deal of respect for them, but

alas no names come to mind.


moonman at amiganet.chi.il.us               (Craig Levin)                        

Pedro de Alcazar, Tre Girt Sea, Midrealm, formerly of Illiton



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: vincent at Micor.OCUnix.on.ca (Victor W. Wong)

Subject: Re: JUDAISM IN SCA?

Organization: M.B. Cormier INC.

Date: Wed, 11 Aug 93 19:40:15 EDT


dzinner at desire.wright.edu writes:


> I have a serious question.  I have a lot of friends in SCA, so I know a littl

> about it.  It seems to me that SCA is an idealized anachronism, and that's

> just fine.  But this idealization is still based on an historical reality-

> a Medieval, Christian society.  What I want to know is, how can I incorporate

> my Jewishness into SCA?  To be historically accurate, a medieval Jew wouldn't

> even eat at the same table with Christians.  I know that SCA is (in part) in

> fun, but it has taken our people a few millenia to get to where we can be

> proud of our religion and heritage, and I don't want to bury it for what

> otherwise seems like a great way to pass the time.  I would be especially

> interested inhearing from any Jews already.


A couple of points you might want to be aware of:


1. The SCA is what the Middle Ages _should_ have been, not what they

   actually were.  Consequently certain social norms (such as the

   separation of the Jews) CAN be tossed out the window, and no one

   in their right mind will object.


2. Remember that certain sub-segments of European society were more

   tolerant of Judaism than others, and also that our current Middle

   Ages also encompasses the Middle East, for trade purposes.


That having been said, one of the things you can do is investigate

the Judaic customs and traditions that would have been prevalent at

the time of your persona's period.  Are they any different than the

customs today?  Are there traditions that aren't done anymore?  That

sort of thing.


Good Luck!




ÃÕÕÕÕÕÕÕÕÕπ mka Victor Wong

∫8 8 8 8 8∫  vincent at micor.ocunix.on.ca

∫8 8 8 8 8∫  Member, Compagnie Mercurie




Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: mittle at watson.ibm.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)

Subject: Re: Knights, Squires, Ret

Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1993 17:56:16 GMT

Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research


Malachi wrote:

>     For instance, I would presume that, medieval knighthoods being

>     a predominantly Christian and Islamic thing, that a Jewish

>     persona would prefer Mastery of Arms to Knighthood...as MIGHT,

>     for instance, a Mongol in a primarily Celtic court...


While medieval Jewish knights were rare, they were by no means unheard of.

Some information on this subject can be found in Eleazar ha-Levi's article

on Jewish Heraldry in the Caidan KWHS proceedings.


Arval d'Espas Nord                                   mittle at watson.ibm.com



From: moonman at camelot.bradley.edu (Craig Levin)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Mr. Dickerson-help with Sephardic persona

Date: 6 Oct 1993 16:21:39 -0500

Organization: House of the Moss Rose


To: dickerso at gomez.stortek.com Date: Tue, 5 Oct 93 23:48:58 CDT


I tried twice from my usual site to reach you, but it kept bouncing.

I've tried from this site, and it bounced again. Please do not take

the length of time from query to response as a lack of zeal to help.


I found several books of worth.







Craig\The Moonman\Levin         Pedro de Alcazar

moonman at camelot.bradley.edu      Shire of Dernehealde, Midrealm



From: nusbache at epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Ghetto establ. 1516 in Venice

Date: 18 Oct 1993 10:29:07 -0400

Organization: EPAS Computing Facility, University of Toronto


In article <1993Oct18.091437.1 at nickel.laurentian.ca> jliedl at nickel.laurentian.ca writes:


>So, no ghetto until 1516--at least not in so many words.


The _Vicus Judaeorum_ was mandated by the Fourth Lateran Council in

1215. The Spanish name was the Juderia.  The Portugese:  Jueiaria.

The French:  Juiverie.  Provencal:  Carriere des Juifs.  The German:

Judenviertel or Judengasse.  England:  Jewry or Jews' Street.


Alternate etymologies for the word "ghetto" include abbreviations of

Borghetto (it. quarter) and  Guitto (tusc. dirty).


Italy was the slowest area to respond to the requirement of a ghetto.

Rome didn't get around to it until 1556, responding to an additional

bull by Paul IV (Papa Carafa); but not until the Council of Milan in

1565 was the bull enforced.


Aryk "The Man with the Ghetto Mentality" Nusbacher



From: nusbache at epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Ghetto establ. 1516 in Venice

Date: 19 Oct 1993 10:08:06 -0400

Organization: EPAS Computing Facility, University of Toronto


jliedl at nickel.laurentian.ca writes:


>Incidentally, Mr. Nusbacher, you would be the one to fill me in on

>the question of Erez Yisrael.  I understood that many Sephardic Jews

>fled there beginning in 1391 and had established quite a community

>there by the time it was absorbed by the Ottoman Empire in 1516.  


Starting in 1391 saves me discussing the Persian invasion, and of

course the Arab invasion, coming like (all together now) a hot wind

out of the desert.


Andalus and the Maghreb started to get uncomfortable for Jews in the

middle of the twelfth century when the Almodhads started to run the

show. Unfortunately, that applied to half of the Mediterranean rim;

with the guiding force coming from a caliph shouting "Islam or death".


Abd-al-muman (if I remember his name correctly), the caliph, allowed

free emigration, however.  Egypt seemed to be less concerned with the

Islam-or-death concept, and as an added plus wasn't filled with a lot

of foaming Franks the way Palestine was.


In 1391, the vicar-general of Seville, one Ferrand Martinez, led a

massacre which accounted for four thousand men killed -- the women and

children were sold into slavery.


From 1391 to the expulsion from Portugal at the end of the century,

Jews were leaving Iberia.  One of the destinations was Erez Israel;

and there was a continual trickle of immigration for years before the

Turks showed up.  A lot of the immigration was to Jerusalem, Tiberias,

and Tsefat.  Most of these people came for religious reasons --

economic migrants went to Egypt, Italy, or the big banana of cities,



There was quite a colony of people at Tsefat, which is a mountain

fastness in the lower Galilee, blessed with relatively cool weather;

as opposed to Tiberias; which is so hot that only a Roman could build

it as a vacation spot.


The people in Tsefat occupied themselves with kabalah -- rather like

the Natural Law Party in the current Canadian election.  These

mystical fellows attracted more and more people as they got turfed out

of the rest of the world.


Once the Turks were in charge, and it was possible to travel to Erez

Israel and live there in some safety; a lot more Jews flowed in.  Many

of them went to the same places:  Jerusalem, Tiberias and Tsefat.


As far as I've been able to tell, the main industries of the Jewish

settlement in Eretz Israel in the fourteenth through the eighteenth

centuries was mysticism, with a strong sideline of talmudic study.

This entailed having a large staff of beggars who would wander around

Europe collecting money and sending it back to Tsefat or Jerusalem.


It was a pretty miserable place, without even the benefit of a

national chain of Pizza-Patzatz shops to provide standardised snack

food throughout the country.


How's that for a capsule history?


Aryk Nusbacher



Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: kharding at lamar.ColoState.EDU (Karol Harding)


Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1993 16:59:04 GMT

Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO 80523


I have been researching Jewish/sephardic and Ladino for some

time, and can never seem to get a response when I ask for info,

so I am posting the following in case anyone else is interested:



Rabbi Shmuel Gorr, "Jewish Personal Names, Their Origin,

Derivation, and Diminutive Forms. (Teaneck, N.J.: Avotaynu, Inc.

Write them at: PO box 1134, Teaneck, NJ 07666

(Haven't seen this one, but it sounds useful)



can be ordered from: Dr. Judith Cohen, 751 Euclid Ave, Toronto,

Canada M6G 2V3. Phone/fax 416/533-266.  

She is preparing a CD/cassette on  the songs of medieval spain,

which is due out in early 1994.  I have asked to be notified

when it's available.  Let me know if you're interested and I

can post or reply.




                               | ...The moment one knows how, one begins

   CHALA THE JOYFUL DANCER    | to die a little. Living is a form of not

                               | being sure, of not knowing what next or

   (\o/)  (\o/)  (\o/) (\o/)   | how.....One leaps in the dark!

   (/|\)  (/|\)  (/|\) (/|\)   | -Agnes Demille, Dance Choreographer




From: augment at world.std.com (Michael Bergman)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: mediaeval jewish music

Date: 7 Apr 1994 23:34:13 -0500


I thought that this might be of interest to people.  Its from



------- Forwarded Message


Forwarded: Fri, 08 Apr 1994 00:25:59 -0400

Forwarded: "dagoura at mit.edu "

Subject: Medieval Sephardic Music from Spain  [rec.music.early #8738]


- ------ Forwarded Article <9403300020.AA16884 at software.pulse.com>

- ------ From Dave Lampson <dave.lampson at PULSE.COM>


I recently got a fascinating CD that I thought the group might like to know

about. It is the second disc in a series called the "Jewels of Sephardim"

exploring the medieval Spanish/Jewish balladry preserved by the Sephardim,

descendants of the Jews of medieval Spain.

This new release, titled "Wings of Time: The Sephardic Legacy of Multi-

Cultural Medieval Spain" (Songbird Music AEACD 1405 55:47) features

vocalist and dulcimer player Lauren Pomerantz joined by three

instrumentalists who have appeared on Ensemble Alcatraz' albums (Danse

Royale and Visions & Miracles, at least): Kit Higginson, recorder and

psaltry; Shira Kammen, vielle and rebec; and Peter Maund, percussion.

In the five centuries before the diaspora created by the inquisition, Spain

flourished as a multi-cultural crossroads bringing together the cultures of

the Middle East, Africa, and Europe.  This music, sung beautifully in

Ladino (Judeo-Spanish) provides a unique glimpse into this culture.  I

highly recommend it to anyone intersted in music from this time.  This

release, as well as the earlier volume titled "Jewels of Sephardim: Songs

from Medieval Spain", complement the Gallician, Anglo-Norman, French and

Latin music to be found on the Ensemble Alcatraz albums giving the listener

a overview of the musical styles in Western Europe during that period.  If

you like Ensemble Alcatraz, and/or have interest in the music of the Near

East and how it has affected Western music, you'll find much of interest

here, to say nothing of the skilled and passionate music-making that make

this disc more than worthwhile in it's own right.  Have I mentioned the

wonderfully transparent, ambient, and well-balanced recording?  Highly


I understand that these CDs are available at Tower Records (mail order

1-800-648-4844) and through a couple of other small distributors (let me

know if you need this info).  You can also get them directly from Songbird

Music. Apparently they are not set up to take credit cards, but if you

send a check or money order they say they can ship it to you First Class

within a day.

   Pricing, which includes postage and handling:

   Wings of Time CD:       $15

   Wings of Time cassette: $10

   Jewels of the Sephardim CD:   $15

   Jewels of the Sephardim cass: $10

Both recordings include the lyrics and translations in the CD and

cassette. Address:

   Songbird Music

   271 Tamarisk Court

   Walnut Creek, CA 94598-3629

   Phone: 510 938-4003

For those who wish to charge it, you may order it through either Tower or:

   The Musical Offering (Berkeley)

   1-800 466-0211


lampson at pulse.com


- ------ End of Forwarded Article



From: Thomas S. Arnold <tarnold at hamp.hampshire.edu>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Jewish Personae

Date: 8 Jan 1995 07:48:31 GMT

Organization: Hampshire College


Carabeth, carabeth at aol.com writes:

>Actually, Aleksandr, what surprises me is the small number of Jews I've

>seen in the SCA who have Jewish personas.  I must admit, my own persona is

>not Jewish.  I attribute the lack of Jews having Jewish personas to a lack

>of knowledge (yes, among Jews) of Jewish history.  As was said in a few

>former posts, Jewish history is extremely rich, but those who have never

>studied it may think that it is not as "exotic" as that of other cultures,

>such as Islam.


How exotic do you want it?


C'mere, Sappy.  Good soapbox...  <pat> <pat>  *ahem*


I find the lack of knowledge of Jewish history, culture, language,

custom, and especially law among Jews to be the most depressing thing

I've ever experienced.  I think I have found a reason for it though, and

it comes out of the Jewish experience in Europe (of all places).


Our usual vision of the Period Jew is that of a scholar or merchant, but

his was not always so.  In fact, we can find examples of European Jews as

late as the First crusade going out to battle the enemy.


Jews were the advisors and doctors to kings, and often perturbed the

Christian communities nearby for attracting converts among the pagans

(Something the Church had tried at for quite some time...).  A woman had

rights under Jewish Law, which put her in a better camp than Christian

law. Because of the laws of physical and spiritual cleanliness, (Jews

wash their hands before they eat and after they defecate.  It's not just

politeness, it's da LAW!!) Jews had a lower infant mortality rate, and a

better standard of living.  It's too bad things fell apart at the end of

the 11th century.


The First Crusade was the first Christian attempt at mass

force-conversions. As one teacher once put it: "They offered the sword

in one hand, and the cross in the other.  The Jews could either kiss the

cross or the sword.  The fact that there are Jews today is because they

kissed the sword."


Within only a few centuries, Jews were describing (Did I mention that

most Jews were also literate?) in their journals the atrocities visited

upon them daily as though they were common occurrences.  They accepted as

their lot the abuse and violence of the surrounding peoples.  It wasn't

the pagans that the Jews had to worry about, though.  It was the Church.

As Europe became Christian, the Jews became not _an_ other people, but

_the_ other people.  There was no escape.  (The Spanish Kings were

actually very nice to the Jews until they became Catholic...)  When the

Catholic nobility were done stripping them of a thousand years of

development, they sent the Jews east, expelling them.


As Jews became more and more hated and despised, they began believing the

rhetoric about them.  There were no Jewish rebellions, for they knew all

of Europe was rallied against them.  The Jews accepted their lot, and

when the "Modern" age came, many cheerfully abandoned their Jewish

identity that weighed upon them as a chain.  However, the "Modern"

Germans didn't care _how_ assimilated the Jews were.  Rich or poor,

observant or assimilated, they were rounded up.  And it happened only 50

years ago.  With the creation of the state of Israel, the Jew has

changed. Now, we have an airforce...  <;-D


But today, A people that would once willingly die rather than have a

Priest sprinkle water on them can't recall what Moses' mother's name was

or his birthday.


Bet you they can tell us the day celebrated for Jesus...  How about his

mother's name?  I recently talked to a guy who had converted to

Christianity because he claimed there was no spirituality in Judaism...


It took only a few questions to discover... he never looked.  In 5000

years we haven't been able to infuse Judaism with Joy?  Gimme a break.


I know Joy.  She goes to my shul.


>Jewish history is also so broad and so deep that it is not

>surprising for a Jew not to know a great deal of it.  One of my recent

>pursuits has been learning about my Jewish heritage.  I think it's time


>change that persona...


Anybody who needs sources, just drop me a line...  Any aspect of Judaism,

I bet I can find ten books.  On Jewish Law, I can name 63 off the top of

my head.


<;-D (Sappy, you can go now...  Here's some Ivory. )


Shavuah Tov,

Thomas The Tent-Peg of Bergental



From: sclark at blues.epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Carroll-Clark)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Events on Shabbat and Other Chagim

Date: 9 Jan 1995 21:29:33 GMT

Organization: University of Toronto -- EPAS



      A few minor quibbles on Thomas' post on Jewish history:


      Actually, the first age of massive forced conversions is in

Visigothic Spain (which Thomas alludes to when he says "The

Spanish kings were nice to Jews before they became Catholics--

before this conversion by Reccared in 590 (?) , the Visigoths were

Arian Christians and considered heretics!)

      The First Crusade instituted an era of periodic persecutions,

but no real attempts at mass conversion.  The most violent

of these were during the First Crusade, where a number of Jewish

settlements were annhialated by errant Crusader riffraff.

Many of these Jews did not choose to submit, but rather committed

suicide. These bloodbaths were pretty much restricted to the

Rheinland, though.  Believe it or not, the Church

condemned those who had taken part in these things, and tried to

squelch them (one bishop actually got the Crusaders to

go away and saved the entire Jewish community in Speyer).

      The next phase is expulsions--in England in 1290 and then

in France early the next century.  Jews could either convert

or go away.  Most of them chose to leave.  (It seems that the main

motivation was so that the kings of England a France could

take over loans owed to Jews and make $$$$$)

      Finally, when you get to later medieval Spain, then you

get the big-deal forced conversions  Many Jews went

"underground" at that point, accepting baptism and seemingly

becoming Christians, but continuing to practice the Jewish faith

in secret.




Canton of Eoforwic

sclark at epas.utoronto.ca



Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 14:47:28 -0500

From: Judith Epstein <judith at ipstenu.org>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period Shabbat


On Aug 24, 2009, at 2:31 PM, Craig Daniel wrote:

<< I was thinking of offering to teach a class at some point on the  

practicalities of Jewish observance at SCA events and/or in the  

Middle Ages, so I guess I should spend this winter working out some  

class materials, including a pamphlet such as you describe. >>


<<< It could get a little tricky, since you have to follow the rule  

about the Society not endorsing religious observances... >>>


It wouldn't be the Society endorsing religious observances, would it?  

No more than the church services offered at Pennsic on Sundays, or the  

discussion of early church music, or allowing people to have personae  

that are monks, observant Muslims, Pagans, and such. I'd be very  

interested in taking classes related to those things, too.


<<<I suspect nobody will mind if you frame it as a way to be of service  

to people with certain restrictions rather than as anything to do  

directly with the Bible or the Talmud. >>>


Mostly it would be about how Jews in the Middle Ages managed this or  

that, and how people *portraying* Jews in the SCA might *choose* to  

delve deeper into the mindset of the persona, by doing more of what  

the persona would have done. And of course an aspect of it might be,  

if there was time, discussion of what an observant Jew might do, or  

need done, because of the Sabbath restrictions.


<<< And, of course, a lot of us love chances to do interesting service  

at events. If you're ever looking for a shabbos goy, I doubt you'll  

have much trouble finding one if you ask around in advance - though  

I don't know what you are and aren't allowed to ask for in your  

tradition, since the only Jews I know personally are Ashkenazi and  

none of them are Orthodox. >>>


This might be a good time to mention the difference between a Shabbos  

goy and a Shabbos goy. I know they look alike on paper, but believe  

me, the tonality can change it like lightning. Originally, "Shabbos  

goy" was said with a tone of great respect. Here was a non-Jew that a  

Jewish family honored and trusted to enter their homes -- sometimes  

even when they weren't there -- and ignite just the right candles in  

just the right rooms, so that they could see to read and study the  

holy books, but not be kept awake by glare. The Shabbos goy was  

trusted to bank the fires at night, then come in the morning to feed  

them fresh wood, so that the house could be kept warm and the food  

wouldn't get cold and congeal -- but they were also trusted not to  

take the food or the fire, not to add anything to the pot, not to  

deliberately set fire to the house (because the Jewish family would be  

permitted to get themselves outside, but not to remove their  

belongings or extinguish the flames). The Shabbos goy was not only  

appreciated for the service (and usually paid, or the favor was  

returned the following Sunday), but highly honored, highly respected,  

highly trusted, and considered one of the Righteous Gentiles that  

would merit a sure place in the world-to-come.


Then there's "Shabbos goy" said with a tone of derision. This is said,  

not of a trusted neighbor, but as a "lower than me" person, a servant  

of a lower caste than other servants, someone to do the most menial  

schlep-work. That usage of the term is both incorrect, and insulting.


The third case of "Shabbos goy" is that which is said of one's fellow  

Jew, indicating "They're Jewish by birth, but they deliberately  

desecrate the Sabbath and disobey the entirety of Jewish law, so they  

might as well not even be called Jews, because their presence is  

shameful to us." This usage is also insulting, because it's like  

saying "We're related, but I don't claim you at all." It's said with  

the assumption that a Jew of this type can never change their ways and  

become observant, or at least, see some value in the Jewishness of  

their heritage -- but worse, it says that the rest of Jewry has given  

up on them. It's heartbreaking to hear a Jew call another Jew a  

"Shabbos goy."


Another word that shouldn't be used is shiksa (female) or sheygetz  

(male). I know it's a popular word that people think simply means "non-

Jew," but it also means "insect." It is said by the severely bigoted  

Jew about non-Jews, as if being non-Jewish was a bad thing, which it  

is emphatically not. (It's also used in honest ignorance by those who  

don't realize what they're saying.) It's like other racial epithets  

which have no place being spoken by good people with compassion and  

refinement. There's a Talmudic passage which asks, "Why did Hashem  

(God) make the entire human race out of just one woman and one man?"  

After much rabbinic discussion, the answer comes, "So that no person  

could say to another, My ancestors are greater than yours." People who  

use the word shiksa/sheygets are those who have forgotten this, and  

they shame themselves with such language.





Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 14:42:28 -0700

From: lilinah at earthlink.net

To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period Shabbat


From: Susan Lin <susanrlin at gmail.com>

<<< Ashkenazi and Sephardic are two branches one being

roughly from Europe (starting in Germany/France and moving east) and the other from North Africa/Spain. >>>


You are leaving out the Mizrachim, the Jews who lived in the Near and

Middle East and never left it (well, until recently).


The Sephardim were originally Spanish. They were NOT North African.

They were forced to leave Spain and some moved to North Africa, while

some went elsewhere (the first Jewish congregation in the US was

Sephardic, and the congregants had come from the Netherlands). There

was a distinct difference between the Sephardim and the local Jews,

the Sephardim often being better educated and richer and looked down

on and didn't mix with the local Maghribi Mizrachi Jews.


Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)

the persona formerly known as Anahita



Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 10:39:40 -0800

From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Passover cakes


<<< It makes me wonder, though, about period Passover. Which of those

rules were in effect when? >>>


If you are sufficiently curious, I believe there are well over a

hundred thousand surviving responsa, giving legal opinions across a

very wide range of time and space.


Of course, most of them aren't available in English. There's an

enormous surviving literature on Jewish law--I've been studying the

subject in preparation for including it in a seminar I'm teaching

next semester. Bits of it have been translated, large parts have not.


<<< How old is the Egyptian custom of avoiding chickpeas? >>>


The Mishnah distinguishes, if I correctly remember what I have just

been reading, among various sorts of beans for various legal

purposes. I don't know if chickpeas are avoided at Passover or not,

but the Mishnah is available in English.


In fact, quite a lot of it is available in English online:







From: Dorcas or Jean <dorcas_jean at YAHOO.COM>

Date: April 19, 2011 12:01:59 PM CDT

To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu

Subject: [CALONTIR] a book review of especial interest to Jewish personae


Okay, my persona isn't Jewish, and I want this book.


Sacred Trash: The Lost and Found World of the Cairo Geniza

by Adina Hoffman and Peter Cole




Also, this bard wants another book mentioned in the review:  The Dream of the Poem: Hebrew Poetry from Muslim and Christian Spain, 950-1492




<the end>

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