Italy-msg - 6/26/10 Italian culture, families. Medieval Points of Interest. NOTE: See also the files: Italy-lnks, popes-msg, fd-Italy-msg, SwissGuard-msg, cl-Italy-msg, fd-Italy-msg, pasta-msg, fd-Sicily-msg, Sicily-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: kreed at gravity.science.gmu.edu (Ken Reed) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Suggestions for books dealing with Ren. Italy. Date: 22 Mar 1996 16:11:01 GMT Organization: George Mason University When you are ready to read somewhat more scholarly works, I would suggest these: Klapisch-Zuber, Christiane. _Women, Family and Ritual in Renaissance Italy._ Herlihy, David and Christiane Klapisch-Zuber. _Tuscans and Their Families._ Kent, F.W. _Household and Lineage in Renaissance Florence._ Davis, James. _A Venetian Family and Its Fortune, 1500-1900._ Pitkin, Donald. _The House that Giacomo Built._ Italian kinship and family structures are different from those of Northern Europe and are the foundation for many of the other social interactions you have mentioned. Baroness Teleri Talgellawg [Susan Reed (the OTHER Reed)] From: Lenny Zimmermann Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Italian history books Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 11:24:16 -0700 > Hello! Could anyone tell me some good sources for Italian history, > approximately from 1100 to 1600? Do any of the books cover that long > an historical period? I am interested in the town of Milan, but also > how the other city-states were influencing it. This is certainly a tall order! I can tell you that Milan itself is a difficult Italian city to choose for historical research. There are simply nowhere near the number of sources available on Milan as there is for Florence, Venice or Rome. Mainly due to a sacked and destroyed library in the late 1300s (or was it early 1400s?). At any rate, Florence is close enough and was a large enough of a rival to at least provide a good deal of general cultural information for Northwestern Italy. (Only partially since Florence was a Republic in the Rennaisance, where most other city-states were not). I would suggest "Rennaisance Diplomacy" as a good book for some good general information on the times. Benvenuto Cellini's (1500-1571) Autobiography is exceptionally interesting for study of the life of a sculptor/soldier during the High Rennasiance since it carries his life story through to 1562. Just remember that Cellini was most certainly a braggart and a bully, but it is still a most interesting piece. "The Book of the Courtier" by Baldasare Castiglione was published in the late 1520s and was the definitive book of proper behaviour for a Courtier for the next 300 years. If you want Italian court life from 1450 on, I would HIGHLY reccomend his work. There is also a new book out that I have heard excellent reviews on about the lives of the ruling family in Mantua but I cannot for the life of me remember the name. As you can tell, however, most of my suggestions follow the Italian High Rennaisance where my own interests lie. My best suggestion is to hit the Library and check out their history section and don't forget to check out their historical literature as well. Plutarch's Lives, Dante's Inferno and The Decamaron were all highly influential works on Italian culture and most Italians were at least familiar with them. Machiavelli can provide some good insight as well, as long as you remember his frame of mind when he wrote things like "The Prince". I found a very interesting book called "The Joys of Italian Humor" which had a few chapters on humor from the time period you are looking at. It is a fascinating culture and luckily the Italians were fairly prolific writers (when their libraries weren't burned down by other Italians). Personally I wallow in the joy of going to the library and finding something new on Italian culture. Now if only I could learn the Italian language better.... Leonardo Acquistapace (MKA Lenny Zimmermann) zarlro at acm.org From: mrcseverne at aol.com (MrCSeverne) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Italian history books Date: 6 Jun 1996 14:49:30 -0400 In addition to the books Leonardo mentioned (and the book on the Gonzaga of Mantua is called "A Renaissance Tapestry", written by Kate Simon, if I be not mistaken,) I would recommend Edward Burman's "Italian Dynasties" and a biography simply called "The Borgias" (and here it is I who am stuck for a name... I can't recall who wrote it.) Both are fairly late, and I confess that I share Leonardo's bias for things Renaissance. Another source which I have found excellent is Jacqueline Herald's "Dress in Renaissance Italy :1450-1500" Although this is a book about clothes, it tells a great deal about the people and the culture, going so far as to discuss moral standards in dress and the financial burdens of fashion. Also, Elisabeth Birbari's book "Dress in Italian Painting", one of the best books I have read about how to decipher the truth of a garment out of a picture. Also makes some comments on life as pertinent to clothing, and shows some of the unlikeliest shots you will ever see of painting details... laundry hanging out to dry, the inside of the cloak of a man struck dead, the hook-and-eye on a child's doublet, the dart (yes, really!) on a woman's bodice. I am sorry that my suggestions seem to have turned to costume, but then... what good is life without fashion? I remain yours in service......................................Colin From: nachtanz at patriot.net (Susan and Ken Reed) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Italian history books Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 11:14:52 -0400 mrcseverne at aol.com (MrCSeverne) wrote: > Also, Elisabeth Birbari's book "Dress in Italian Painting", one of the > best books I have read about how to decipher the truth of a garment out of > a picture. Also makes some comments on life as pertinent to clothing, and > shows some of the unlikeliest shots you will ever see of painting > details... laundry hanging out to dry, the inside of the cloak of a man > struck dead, the hook-and-eye on a child's doublet, the dart (yes, > really!) on a woman's bodice. > I am sorry that my suggestions seem to have turned to costume, but > then... what good is life without fashion? I remain yours in > service......................................Colin Along this line, another excellent book is _Painting and Experience in Fifteenth-Century Italy_ by Michael Baxandall, 2d edition (Oxford, UK: Oxford University Press, 1988) which shows how patrons of the arts were educated and how this, in turn, influenced the development of art and of how art was perceived. It also discusses pictorial depiction of costume in this light as well. One caution on Elisabeth Birbari, though. She bought into the concept that the Italians showed everything exactly as it appeared in "real life" lock, stock, and barrel. I also have a background in art history both at the undergrad and grad levels, and from what I have studied, the Italians were into "idealized beauty" rather than painting "what they saw" (read some of the artist's own discussions of "art" being more important than "nature"). They did not paint every little detail "accurately" (where are the piecing seams on the narrow silks?) and everything they painted did not necessarily exist. Jacqueline Herald in _Dress in Renaissance Italy, 1400-1500_ has good discussion on what I call "iconographic" clothing, clothing that serves as a symbol rather than being garments worn in "real" life (Margaret Scott in _Late Gothic Europe_ of the same series has an even better one). Otherwise, Birbari's book is a very good source for interpretation. -- Susan and Ken Reed AFPOPA nachtanz at patriot.net From: jeffs at bu.edu (Jeff Suzuki) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Italian history books Date: 13 Jun 1996 01:17:48 GMT Organization: Boston University : > Hello! Could anyone tell me some good sources for Italian history, : > approximately from 1100 to 1600? Do any of the books cover that long : > an historical period? I am interested in the town of Milan, but also : > how the other city-states were influencing it. I haven't read it, but there is Machiavelli's _History of Florence_, which will tell you what the Florentines thought about history...Also, didn't Dante write a history of Florence? From the look of things, it looks like Florence was the only city in Italy during the Renaissance...so I'll start with a few not about Florence: _A Renaissance Tapestry_, by Kate Simon. Tells about the Gonzaga of Mantua; a great story about a house that didn't quite make it. The story of how Vincenzo had to prove his manhood is, by itself, worth the price of the book. _Before the Industrial Revolution_, by Carlo Cipolla. This is economic history; a bit dry, but if you want to know how the European economy worked in the time period between 1100 and 1700, utterly fascinating. _History of the Italian Republics in the Middle Ages_, by J. C. L. Sismondi. Haven't read it, don't know if you can find it anywhere (I got mine at a library sale for 25c), but the table of contents is intriguing: entries include chapters on all the major city-states, including the lesser ones like Pisa and Siena. (A quick check through my Britannica gives me the impression that the English version is a condensation of his sixteen volume --- ! --- work of the same name. Sismondi was one of the early economic historians, ca. 1800, FWIW.) Now for the Florence section... _Renaissance Florence_, by Gene Brucker. The title tells you what you need to know. _Florence and the Medici_, by H. R. Hale. I haven't read this yet, but it looks interesting. _The Medici_, by Ferdinand Shevil. A good introduction to the family. Jeffs From: gunnora at bga.com (Gunnora Hallakarva) To: ansteorra at eden.com Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 09:36:21 -0600 Subject: More Info from the Historical Costuming List Good gentles, once again I am forwarding information to you which first appeared on the Historical Costuming List. Gunnora Hallakarva is *not* the author, but thought that Ansteorrans and other readers of this list might find this infomation useful: ===================================================== Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 13:05:42 -0500 From: Mary Smith Subject: Italian Ren The following notes are courtesy of Maestra Francesca di Pavia, from the Shire of Caer Galen, the Outlands. I will forward any comments to her. "As near as I can tell, there were two basic styles of overdress commonly worn in Italy in the second half of the 15th Century. One was called a cioppa or pellanda (regional variations), and was related to a houppelande. It was very long and full in the skirt. The bodice could be pleated to the skirt, or could be all one piece with a complex system of pleats starting above the breastline (possibly tied in place on the inside). The bodice was usually round-necked and somewhat high, but could be cut lower. The skirt was open in the front to reveal the skirt of the dress beneath. (BTW, I can see no evidence that the basic Italian dress, the gamurra, camora, or cotta - again mainly regional variations - ever had a split skirt and underskirt, as I so often see done in the SCA. That's a misinterpretation of a gown and an overgown, as I see it.) The sleeves were generally hanging sleeves, and were often ridiculously long and full, and sometimes dagged. The second style of overgown was the giornea. This was a tabard-like affair, which was left open on the sides to reveal the gown beneath, and was usually cut in a low V-neck so the bodice beneath could show. This could be sleeveless or have long, hanging (sometimes dagged) sleeves. In either case the sleeves of the dress beneath would be seen (and these were often elaborately beaded and embroidered). (Incidentally, a woman of status would rarely go out in public without an overdress, except in the summer, and then her gamurra would be of silk and as heavily embellished as she could muster. Only a lower-class woman would go about in aplain wool gamurra without a cioppa or giornea.) "Judging from the many paintings I've seen, there were wide variations in these basic styles. This was an age of great display of individualism in costuming, and as much conspicuous consumption as thewearer could afford - the penalty for violating sumptuary laws was a fine. The nouveau riche happily paid the fine in order to look more like the nobility." Francesca di Pavia/Meg Baron ====================================================== Gunnora Hallakarva Herskerinde From: 104310.1415 at CompuServe.com Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: travel suggestions-Italy Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 21:53:23 -0800 I spent this past summer in Italy, living in Siena (taking a language course at the University there) and travelling every weekend...all of this was on a college studnt's budget, as well. Being partial, I definitely recommend Siena. The Contrada museums are the people's history collection...the period garb used for the Palio is authentic as it can get, and it's all there for us to see. Also, the entire town within the walls is medieval. It has the ambience.(I was a soaking sponge for two months!) An Italian rail pass was a deal but also a pain as I couldn't use it on the faster trains without paying a supplement. (It worked out to be a deal, however.) Youth hostels are great and the most inexpensive. I also used Lonely Planet's guide to Italy, which was very good at listing cheap hotels in safe areas. A warning about the book (my only gripe) is that the times for the museums and sites are wrong. This cost me my one chance to see inside St. Mark's (Venice) (Go there!!!!!) because I happilly arrived an hour late following my book's incorrect time. Oh well. The Ducal Museum in Venice has a great armory exhibit and fascinating prisons with prisonor's graffitti from 1500 (for example). If you have other questions for me, Ailith, you can eMail me (muirne at earthlink.net) BUON VIAGGIO! CIAO, Muírne ní Chatain From: mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: developing Italian persona - need lotsa help Date: 28 Jan 1997 11:02:43 -0500 Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC In article <5cf1vk$fe at Holly.aa.net>, cire at mail.nwinfo.net (eric) writes: > I am new to the SCA and have decided on Italian for my family's > person. Need lotsa help with everything: > Names - Clothes - Tents - etc You can find information on Italian names at http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names. =========================================================================== Arval d'Espas Nord mittle at panix.com From: lsteele at mtholyoke.edu (Lisa Steele) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: developing Italian persona - need lotsa help Date: 29 Jan 1997 02:41:42 GMT Organization: Mount Holyoke College eric (cire at mail.nwinfo.net) wrote: > I am new to the SCA and have decided on Italian for my family's > person. Need lotsa help with everything: > Names - Clothes - Tents - etc > Please help. Italian is not the easiest place to start. There is a wealth, indeed a confusing morass of historical material available. On the other hand, the politics and history are hideously complex and there are not many general overviews available. Pick a region and likely a city -- Florence, Venice, Milan, Rome, all the major cities have fairly accessible materials. Then pick a time period -- at least a century and perhaps a fraction thereof (1st half, 2nd third, whatever). Then I can likely give you some places to start looking for more information. --Esclarmonde From: donato at stlnet.com To: ansteorra at eden.com Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 20:12:33 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Fwd: Italian Names?]] > I am trying to create a SCA persona from the Italian race. To date I >have been unable to find ANY names or backgrounds. ANY help will be >greatly appreciated. Thanks for any help you can give me. > > Denise Williams Machavelli's "Florentine Histories" and "The Prince," and Castligone's "Book of the Courtier" should give you ample background on life in the city states and among the gentry. Also there is a book called "Italian Folktales" (sorry I can't remember the editor) which has some interesting cultural anecdotes. Donato From: "Nathan W. Jones" To: ansteorra at eden.com Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 20:41:01 -0800 Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Fwd: Italian Names?]] Donato wrote: > Machavelli's "Florentine Histories" and "The Prince," and Castligone's "Book > of the Courtier" should give you ample background on life in the city states > and among the gentry. > > Also there is a book called "Italian Folktales" (sorry I can't remember the > editor) which has some interesting cultural anecdotes. For first names, try Shakespeare. And for a great read about Florentine life try "Two Memoirs of Renaissance Florence", (and I don't have it close to hand to tell you the editors name, I want to say Gene Brucker.) Oh, and don't forget "The Autobiography of Benvenuto Cellini", which also happens to be a really great read. Gio From: jarnott at sallie.wellesley.edu (Jennifer C. Arnott) Newsgroups: soc.history.living,rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Blacks in Renaissance Italy Date: 29 AUG 97 18:02:41 GMT Organization: Wellesley College Regarding blacks in Renaissance Italy: I took a seminar on Renaissance Florence last semester, and as part of the course work, we had to pick articles dealing with various subject areas. One of the ones I read had to do with slavery in Florence, which, if I remember correctly was in its prime between 1450ish and 1530. The slaves were principally from Turkey and Eastern Europe - but from non-Christian areas or groups However, many of them also came from Northern Africa. Slaves were most commonly young women <9-12 years old> who would be bought as nursemaids/ maids of all work - and yes, they would sometimes be concubines for the son of the house. It was not *incredibly* uncommon for these slaves - especially the women - to be released from slavery when their charges were grown, given a small lump sum,and left on their own. On the other hand, they were also often favourite family retainers... It was also pointed out that although the slaves *were* exposed to physical violence, it was at about the same level that the children of the family were - in other words, their master was equally brutal with both the slaves and his own blood. The article in question - and I'm sorry I don't have full information - was in Renaissance Quarterly. I want to say that the Volume number was either #30, or in that area, which puts it in the late 70s/early 80s, I think. If anyone is interested, next time I get a chance to go hunt the library stacks, I can see if I can get complete information. The title was something along the lines of "Slave ownership in