Ireland-msg - 3/6/08 Irish culture, dress. Points of interest. Irish history. NOTE: See also the files: cl-Celts-msg, cl-Ireland-msg, fd-Ireland-msg, SI-songbook1-art, Scotland-msg, potatoes-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ "OF IRELAND Yrlonde hight Hibernia, and is an island of the Ocean in Europe, and is nigh to the land of Britain, and is more narrow and straight than Britain, but it is more plenteous place. . . . In this land is much plenty of corn fields, of wells and of rivers, of fair meads and woods, of metal and of precious stones. For there is gendered a six cornered stone, that is to wit, Iris, that maketh a rainbow in the air, if it be set in the sun. And there is jet found, and white pearls. And concerning the wholesome air, Ireland is a good temperate country. There is little or none passing heat or cold, there be wonderful lakes, ponds, and wells. For there is a lake, in which if a staff or a pole of tree be pight, and tarrieth long time therein, the part that is in the earth turneth into iron, and the part that is in the water turneth into stone, and the part that is above the water, abideth still in its kind of tree. There is another lake in which if that thou throwest rods of hazel, it turneth those rods into ash: and ayenward if ye cast ashen rods therein, they turn into hazel. Therein be places in which dead carrions never rot: but abide there always uncorrupt Also in Ireland is a little island, in which men die not, but when they be overcome with age, they be borne out of that island to die without. In Ireland is no serpent, no frogs, nor venemous addercop; but all the land is so contrary to venemous beasts that if the earth of that land be brought into another land, and spronge on the ground, it slayeth serpents and toads. Also venemous beasts flee Irish wool, skins, and fells. And if serpents or toads be brought into Ireland by shipping, they die anon. Solinus speaketh of Ireland, and saith the inhabitants thereof be fierce, and lead an unhuman life. The people there use to harbour no guests, they be warriors, and drink men's blood that they slay, and wash first their faces therewith: right and unright they take for one. . . . Men of Ireland be singularly clothed and unseemly arrayed and scarcely fed, they be cruel of heart, fierce of cheer, angry of speech, and sharp. Nathless they be free hearted, and fair of speech and goodly to their own nation, and namely those men that dwell in woods, marshes, and mountains. These men be pleased with flesh, apples, and fruit for meat, and with milk for drink: and give them more to plays and to hunting, than to work and travail. Bartholomew Anglicus" [A quote from period. Submitted by Brent Hanner <behanner at castleliechtenstein.net>] ----- Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: jaymin at maths.tcd.ie (Jo Jaquinta) Subject: Re: Irish Persona Help Needed! Organization: Dept. of Maths, Trinity College, Dublin, Ireland. Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1993 09:53:14 GMT Keywords: surnames, garb > What I'm having no luck with is costuming and "last names" (chiefly the > practices for such names in 11th - 13th c. Eire)... Could someone > recommend a book or two that talks about naming practices (especially > *last* names; the Fidelma Maguire and Donnchadh O/ Corra/in book is no > help in that regard)... I have always found indispensible tools for creating Irish personas are the various "Annals of Ireland". I have the Annals of Innisfallen and the Annals of Connacht. Don't be mislead by the names, they have very little to do with the area they are named after. These are basically journals where the monks of the abbey would write down a few paragraphs each year of what they though was important. Innishfallen covers from about 430 to 1270 and Connacht covers 1200 to 1400 (or thereabouts). These are *brilliant* source material. They are full of names of all sorts of people with a massive name index in the back. Instant irrefutable documentation. You can sit down a read through what happened in your persona's life time from a contemporary point of view. Needless to say they are woefully inaccurate about certain things but then your persona would be equally ignorant. One entry catalogs a 40' tall woman washing up on the shores of Scotland, another chronicles the King of Alba gifting Brian Boru with a camel. Good stuff. Arval writes: >I suspect that the Irish in that period did not have "surnames" as such. In the Annals people are usually "Blah, son of blah". Clan affiliations you seem to be expected to know by context or by working out the geneologies to the many "Blah, king of blah". >For a woman, the standard patronymic form is >"ni <father's name in the genitive form>". Actually I've poured through the annals and never found anything like this. There aren't too many women's names but every one I have found so far has been "Blah daugheter of blah" in the Irish as "blah ingen blah". What documents does "ni" or "nic" appear in? Original poster: > What I'm having no luck with is costuming and "last names" Costuming is always a problem. There are very few books on this. What period did you have in mind? There is a book on Anglo-Norman sculpture... Other than that there are two theories: 1) Take English fashion of fifty to a hundred earlier that your Irish persona. 2) Use English Fashion if you are from Leinster, Scotish fashion if you are from Ulster, French fasion if you are from Munster, and Spanish fashion if you are from Connacht. In any event, don't forget there is a SCA Shire in Ireland. We're always pleased to lend whatever hand we can to people with Irish personas... Yours in service, Seamus Donn % Seamus Donn Eva de Barri Sorcha Ui' Flahairteaigh %|% Jo Jaquinta Cathy Barry Lesley Grant /\\ | //\ jaymin at maths.tcd.ie cbarry at maths.tcd.ie lgrant at maths.tcd.ie ===== 44 Bancroft Avenue, Tallaght, Dublin 24, Ireland. /|\ for the Shire of Lough Devnaree (Lough Damh na Ri') From: sm at teleport.com (Scott A. MacHaffie) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Irish Social History Date: 24 Oct 1994 06:16:15 -0700 Organization: Teleport - Portland's Public Access (503) 220-1016 One book of Irish history, at a popular level, is "The Story of the Irish Race," by Seumas MacManus, The Devin-Adair Co., Old Greenwich, Connecticut, 1986. ISBN: 0-517-064081. This book has a good bibliography. A very good book for early history (6th-11th century) is "Social History of Ancient Ireland," by PW Joyce. This book is a serious historical book with lots of references. Scott MacHaffie -- sm at teleport.com Public Access User --- Not affiliated with TECHbooks Portland, Oregon, where summer is the nicest half-hour all year From: jcarlock at magnus.acs.ohio-state.EDU (James R Carlock) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Irish Social History Date: 25 Oct 1994 12:32:17 -0400 Organization: the internet Greetings from Toirrdelbach! Scott Mahaffie recommends P.W. Joyce's A SOCIAL HISTORY OF ANCIENT IRELAND as a serious historical work? I will agree that Joyce was serious about his history and used copious references, but I would suggest against using his work as one's documentation for an article. His ideas about Irish dress are not founded on actual articles, but rather on etymological evidence. He even believes the celtic Irish wore kilts! The evidence he uses to support this is a line drawing of a late-period shrine made on the continent, which features some men in what at first glance appear to be topless skirts but really aren't. Joyce shows all the limitations and biases of a 19th century historian. Use his book as a reference to the primary sources, but don't accept anything he says without checking the primary sources first. With no disrespect to Mr. Mahaffie or Dr. Joyce, Toirrdelbach mka Jim Carlock Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: cathal at netcom.com (James Pratt) Subject: Re: Help out a Newbie? Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 03:19:16 GMT : Good Milord: : WELCOME TO THESE CURRENT MIDDLE AGES! : Being of Danish/Irish extraction you are : what we sons of Erin call a Fingall (light haired foreigner) : as opposed to the Dubhgall (dark haired foreigner/Norwegian). : But all that aside, the following works might be of some : help: : IRISH NAMES AND SURNAMES by Partic Woulfe : Genealogical Pbl. Co., Baltimore, 1969 : : A SOCIAL HISTORY OF ANCIENT IRELAND by P.W. Joyce : Longman, Greene & Co., London, 1913 : : IRELAND BEFORE THE VIKINGS by Gearoid Mac Nicoaill : Gill and MacMillan, Ltd.,1972 : (Gill History of Ireland, vol. 1) : : OLD IRISH AND HIGHLAND DRESS by H.F. McClintock : Dundalgan Press, Dundalk, 1943. : : Most larger University libraries should have these works : or be able to access them by ILL. Practical SCA info can be : obtained from THE KNOWN WORLD HANDBOOK. This is available from : the Society Stock Clerk (see your Kingdom newsletter of the FAQ : on this news group for the mailing address.) : My best advice to any newcomer is: DONT BE AFRAID TO ASK : QUESTIONS! No-one will bite your head off----maybe talk your : ear off---if you ask an honest question. Have fun, learn and : be welcome. : Salve, : Master Cathal Mac Edan na faeled, : Barony of the South Downs, Meridies. : OOOPS! : I should proof my own postings more carefully. The : correct usage is: : Finghall/Fingal-light haired foreigners=Norwegians : Dubhgall/Dughal-dark haired foreigners=Danes : MEA CULPA!! : CATHAL. From: sclark at blues.epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Carroll-Clark) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Help on garb Date: 26 Jun 1995 01:49:22 GMT Organization: University of Toronto -- EPAS Greetings! By the thirteenth century, upper levels of Irish society would have been very influenced by English court styles. The influence would likely be more pronounced in areas which had been taken by the Normans a century or so earlier. In any case, we're talking about tunics--looser sleeves earlier in the century, tighter towards the end, for a guy anywhere between knee and ankle length (depending on the specific period). If reflecting upper class trends, you'd likely also add a surcote/gardecorps, especially towards the end of period. Which book do you have? There's no one single perfect source for the period, but the Cunninghams' _English Medieval Costume_ is pretty good. Cheers! Nicolaa/Susan sclark at epas.utoronto.ca From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: re: Help on garb Date: 23 Jun 1995 13:33:26 -0500 Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway <Brent Hughes <bhughes at ashley.business.uwo.ca>> >I've just recently joined the SCA, and am currently researching a persona. >The problem I've run into right now is appropriate garb. I'm looking at a >late 13th century Irish Bard. I have a book on English Medieval costume, but >I'm unsure as to whether English fashion would have applied to Ireland, >especially Gaelic-Irish. If anyone has any suggestions, please e-mail me. The answer is no it would not, and MOST especially to the Gaelic-Irish. You might try for a more Norman dress when you are visiting the Big City, but even the Norman lords tended to wear clothing more along the lines of the attire of the locals (although by the late 13th C, that transition might no yet be complete). Try looking for a book called something like "Old Irish and Highland Dress" by a man named McClintock. I'll see if I can dig something up that's more specific. I'll warn you though, Irish garb can be pretty ugly (so speaks the scholar who dresses like the French he lives among :) ). "Mihi Satis Apparet Propter Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn Se Ipsum Appetenda Sapientia" University of Northkeep -- St. Dunstan Northkeepshire, Ansteorra (I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu) From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: re: Help on garb Date: 26 Jun 1995 15:07:35 -0500 Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway <Nicolaa<Susan Carroll-Clark <sclark at blues.epas.utoronto.ca>>> >By the thirteenth century, upper levels of Irish society would >have been very influenced by English court styles.... I'm afraid that I really must disagree, at least with the statement that there would be influence from the English court. There is certainly some influence from the continent, but it is really quite minimal, or so it appears to me. In fact, the Leine (at least according to tomb sculptures) remains fairly standard well into the 1500s. There is a tomb of a Norman Irish noble, in fact, dated c1230 that has him shown clearly in an ankle length pleated Leine, although the sleeves are, in fact, tightly cuffed around his wrists. By 1300, of course, the leine, still evidences by all the material has shortened to just above the half-boots, and is deeply "V" collared, with what might be an undershirt. Neither outfit is worn belted, BTW. Over the next 150 year, the outfit remains essentially the same, although there is one rendering that shows one of those triangular belt pouches (c1450) worn over the shoulder as a modern purse. BTW, rather than the McClintock, these examples come from a marvelous 2 colume set: Hunt, John. Irish Medieval Figure Sculpture, 1200-1600, a study of Irish tombs with notes on costume and armor. Dublin: Irish University Press, 1972. "Mihi Satis Apparet Propter Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn Se Ipsum Appetenda Sapientia" University of Northkeep -- St. Dunstan Northkeepshire, Ansteorra (I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu) From: sclark at blues.epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Carroll-Clark) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Help on garb Date: 27 Jun 1995 19:20:53 GMT Organization: University of Toronto -- EPAS Greetings! A caveat: I have not particularly studied Irish garb, and my original statements did not apply to majority of Irish society--just the highest levels. I was also talking strictly 13th century. It seems to me that the idea of "national styles" really gets going in the 14th century. Before that, as I posted earlier, people are essentially wearing "straight cut" garments--variations on tunics/robes, with the main differences being the tightness in both body and sleeves, the neckhole treatment, and the length, as well as decoration and ornament (this is where you see your greatest regional variation). For example, around 1250 England, France and Germany (for women) favour a robe belted at the waist with tight lower sleeves. The robe seems to have a lot of fabric in it, and the fabric blouses over the belt. The sleeveless surcote is just coming into fashion. The main exception to this is Spain--13th century Spain is its own little world costume-wise--they seem to have liked side-laced surcotes which fit tightly. Styles in England and France at this time are so similar that it would be difficult to detect whether influence was from the Continent or from England on Irish dress. (It could well be either). The main thing is that I doubt that in the 13th century the cut of Irish clothing was vastly different than that of English clothing. Now, the way the Irish combined pieces, and the jewellery/belts/decoration might have been quite a bit different. But from the description given of the _laine_, it sounds like a variation on the tunic theme. National styles, BTW, interest me a great deal. By late in our period, they had become identifiable--i.e., I can usually tell French, English, Spanish, Dutch, German, and Italian 16th century garb apart; but in my period (13th century), except for Spain and a few regional differences in decoration, there do not yet seem to be any developed national styles. Comments anyone? I'd love to hear from anyone who's studyied the development of national styles. Cheers! Nicolaa/Susan Canton of Eoforwic sclark at epas.utoronto.ca From: lyon at infi.net at infi.net Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Irish Garb Date: 5 Nov 1995 20:24:50 GMT Organization: InfiNet You should try to get a copy of "Dress in Ireland" by Mairead Dunlevy. It gives good descriptions but the pictures start at about 1500. Good luck! If you find pictures or other info for earlier, please post here. I'd be very interested! Andrea andreah at cpsnet.com From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period Irish name query (was Period Scottish names) Date: 11 Nov 1995 23:09:57 GMT Organization: University of California, Berkeley Lila Richards (lila at lynx.CO.NZ) wrote: <discussion of feminine Gaelic patronyms> : OK. Now I'm *completely* confused! For lo these many years, I have been : known as Caitlin ni Cumhaill. I originally used 'mac Cumhaill', because I : wished to imply descent from Fionn (Finn?) mac Cumhaill, but at some stage I : decided this was incorrect. So ... am I right in assuming from the above : explanation that 'ni Cumhaill' refers to me as a descendant of Cumhaill? Yes, that's exactly right. "ni/ Cumhaill" means "female descendent of Cumhall". As best I understand what you are trying to imply with the name, you are doing it correctly. : And if so, how would I say I'm a descendant of 'mac Cumhaill'? There's no reason to do it any differently. If you wanted to say specifically that you are the daughter of a man surnamed "mac Cumhaill", you could instead use "inghean mhic Cumhaill", but if you just want "nebulously distant descendent" then either "inghean ui" or the short form "ni" says what you want to say. : Caitlin is : 7th C Irish, but failing that, anything early will do. Well, I hate to disabuse you of the notion, but it would be completely impossible for "Caitlin" to be a 7th century Irish name. The cult of St. Katherine originated in Syria and was not brought to Western Europe until the crusades. The name Katherine, in any of its variants, would not have been known in 7th century Ireland. : Also, I'd like to add 'of (or from) the Windswept Moor' (it's been blowing a : near-gale outside all day today!) or something close, but I haven't a clue : where to start. Ohpleasegodno. Do you want a name that could reasonably have been used by a period Irishwoman or do you want a name that couldn't possibly exist outside of a bad fantasy novel? My research has found locative nicknames to be extremely rare in Irish. The ones that I _have_ found are generally derived from the proper names of places, rather than fanciful descriptions. : One kind gentle suggested 'Sliabh' for 'moor', but he said : it also means 'mountain', so I'm not sure. Yup, "sliabh" can mean either "moor" or "mountain". Probably it would be better translated as "high elevation". The mountains in Ireland aren't particularly mountainous by most standards. There are a number of place names that incorporate the word "sliabh" -- Hogan's "Onomasticon Goedelicum" has eight pages of listings of "Sliabh <some modifying phrase>", unfortunately my Irish isn't fluent enough to skim through and get a sense of what sort of modifiers are used except that the majority seem to be personal names (i.e., "so-and-so's sliabh"). Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn From: Christopher Allen Owens <cowens at netset.com> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: SCA suggestions for trip to UK? Date: 25 May 1996 06:20:35 GMT Organization: NetSet Internet Services -- Columbus, Ohio talis87346 at aol.com (Talis87346) wrote: > > My lord and I are traveling to England, Scotland, and Dublin in the fall, > and we were wondering if anyone who has visited there has suggestions > about places of especial interest to Scadians. If you are planning on spending any time in Ireland and don't mind "roughing-it" try to go to Killkenny, you can stay at the local youth hostel which is a converted 15th Century fortified manor. Complete with grown-over walls and a guard-house/bicycle shed. From: JWSCHM00 at ukcc.uky.edu Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: re: Suggestions for trip to the UK Date: Sat, 25 May 96 12:55:22 EDT Organization: The University of Kentucky Greetings, I have lost the original post, but I believe the gentles in question were visiting Dublin. If so, a decent place to visit is Dublinia "a bridge to the medieval past". This is located on St. Michael's Hill, next to Christ Church Cathedral. There's a mosaic behind the ex-church (St. Michael's) where a Vikin house was excavated. There are inlays in the sidewalk around Christ Church that look like they represent archeological finds, but we weren't able to find out exactly what they were. If visiting York, I also recommend Jorvik. Also, if you go down in the foundations of the York Minster, you can see neat things like the original Norman foundations and a Roman road they excavated when re-doing the foundations. Jean Schmeisser -- Kriemhilde von Habichtslager Dragonsmark -- Midrealm From: cromabu at aol.com (CromAbu) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Ireland Date: 26 May 1996 12:29:41 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) There are many good books on the period that can be found just browsing at the library --- History of the Irish Race , A History of Ireland , Ireland in Tudor Times , and anything by Geraldus Cabriensis. Also look into books on Irish folk tales and Mythology to get an idea of the mindset. (Histories by English authors sometimes are a bit one sided , ....I wonder why?( Hee Hee Hee!!!). You will need to do a bit of reading in order to get more specific in your request for info , your at square one and asking "what is the universe". Sir fitz From: lynch_c at csvax1.ucc.ie (Conor James Lynch) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Ireland Date: 31 May 1996 12:16:20 GMT Organization: Computer Science Dept. University College, Cork, Ireland. In article <4oa0tl$aug at newsbf02.news.aol.com>, cromabu at aol.com (CromAbu) writes: >There are many good books on the period that can be found just browsing at >the library --- History of the Irish Race , A History of Ireland , Ireland >in Tudor Times , and anything by Geraldus Cabriensis. Sir fitz The best books I have seen which details irish culture etc is Eugene O'Curry's Manners and customs of the ancient irish a 3 volume set but an invaluable source of information. Cathal MacBrian From: ladyallyn at aol.com (Lady Allyn) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Celtic Oaths Date: 12 Jun 1996 04:59:40 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Honorable soul, Try "The Social History of Ancient Ireland" by Joyce -- two volumes, VERY well documented, long exerpts of Brehon law (ie; oaths) and HUGE bibliography. Peace and Strength, Allyn From: "James W. Reilly" <enda at algonet.se> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Hi! I'm new to the SCA! Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 01:19:14 +0100 Hi there Siusaidh and welcome to the SCA, In society I am known as Enda Mac an Bhird(mundanely as Jim Reilly) and I am an Irishman of the 13th C. In regards to your questions I would like to point out that in all actuality the Scots were merely a decendency of the Irish colony in Ariada(Scotland) well before what the SCA calls period. Also communications between Ireland and Dalriada were kept up through-out the early middle ages and that the Ulster-Irish and the Scots have always been a close-knit lot even well before Cromwell. A very good source for early Irish, and therefore Scot history, I would recommend "History of the Irish Race" by Seumas MacManus. Except for his sheer hatred of the English in the later chapters, it is an excellent resource for early Gaelic/Celtic culture which is also, and most importantly, very well documented. It was originally written in 1921, and the man made absolutely sure that anyone could check his resources (It is well worth the investment purely for the lists of source material at the end of each chapter). In regards to a name source, the easiest to recommend would be "Book of Irish Names" by Ronan Coghlan, Ida Grehan, and P.W. Joyce. This is very good for persona names being as they have tried to date the earliest appearances of name along with what they mean. Best of all, this book is easily available from the SCA Marketplace, P.O.Box 360789, Milpitas, California, 95036-0789, tel.(408) 956-5444,(800) 789-7486, fax.(408) 263-0641. It sells for $10.00 + the usual whatever shipping. If you have any further questions, need further help, or just want to discuss Gaelic/celtic culture, the SCA, or whatever else; feel free to contact me via the Rialto or email me. Your in service, Enda From: peterbi at microsoft.com (Peter N. Biddle) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Tower Of London and Bunratty Castle (Ireland) Date: 12 Dec 1996 19:33:59 GMT Organization: Microsoft Corporation I visited the Tower of London (again) and Bunratty Castle (Ireland) a couple of weeks ago and I have some notes to share: Tower - Almost all of the armor is GONE. URK! It has been moved to the royal armories, one at Leeds(just outside England) and one at Portsmouth. What remains is Henry VIII's collection of tourney armor, plus some of the more quaint pieces form his personal armory (combined weapons like musket/shields, musket/maces, etc.), and some random pieces of other late-period tourney stuff. So you can see his famous cod-piece and the skirt armor, but not much more. (I actually got to hear the winched-onto-the-horse story again, fortunately not by a guide but by an observer.) I didn't get to Leeds (no time), which was a major drag. The White tower is essentially closed - this is in the long run goodness as they are renovating it so that it can be displayed as it was used originally, as opposed to being an armor warehouse. Once again the "palace" with the 13th cent. re-enactors was the best, and as it was off-season, we basically had the place to ourselves. I had a long talk with one of the lords present, playing a 13th cent. knight (the king was there as well), and got a good look at his shoes and clothes, all of which were hand-made. He said the shoes he had (above the ankle turn-shoes, using button-type fasteners set to the outside, with no exposed seams) were based on a 13th century London dig-find, and that they were the most comfortable shoes he wore. He also showed me a period woodblock of knights playing a board game sans belts - he was of the opinion that when you got home you took off the belt and the assorted accouterment to relax, letting your tunics fall more like a dress. He wore a non-hooded circle cloak (8 yards of cloth), a separate hood, a shorter outer-tunic with short sleeves, a long inner tunic, knee-high hose/socks connected to a belt, and "diaper-like" under wear (didn't see that...). Not as much jewelry as the king - a couple of rings. The belt he wore (and the king) was quite narrow - not like most of the belts you see around an SCA event. Bunratty was very cool - it is in Ireland between Shannon airport and Limerick and it has been renovated to be entirely 16th cent. (except for a few pieces of furniture etc.) and older. There are lots of REAL medieval antiques and artifacts around the place, and it definitely give you a serious medieval feel. The great hall was quite large and had a fire circle set in the floor of the middle of the room, with a vent in the ceiling - no chimney. They had a bunch of 17th cent courboulli butts (big jugs) in a room but you couldn't get close to them, which caused me no end of grief. The downside to this place was that in the castle there is NO one around to answer questions. They even had several period swords, some armor, and a cross-bow I would have also killed to get my hands on, but alas they too were off limits. (No surprise really, butt to be so close, with no one around...) The enormous tables, however, were free to be examined which was very cool - enormous things (maybe 14 feet long by 3 feet wide), some made out of single solid boards 3-4 inches thick, all held together with pegs. The castle also has a folk-park, a turn of the century Irish village, which was also way cool. The scary part is how medieval the place feels - it is only 100 years old and some of the farmsteads could easily be mistaken for 1000 AD. Very little metal, thatched roofs, sleep in the same room as your animals, etc. The smell of burning turf was everywhere (every house had a burning peat fire - a very nice touch). You can get in and get your hands on a lot of cool stuff at Bunratty; it is a very cool castle and town with a very rich history as a working military and social structure (hard to believe it has been sacked 8 times - you wouldn't believe it if you saw it's defenses). I just WISH they had some interpreters around. I am going to see if I can't find a curator and hit him or her up for info. Some notes from their un-bibliographies literature: Women weren't allowed in the great hall. The Norman's were great big bastards much of the time. The Irish rarely got their shit together enough to quit squabbling with each-other and throw the bastards out, although they did succeed on occasion. The officers and soldiers (both commoners) shared quarters (a single huge living room) but were separated by a line cut across the floor. No one was allowed to sit in the presence of Earl Thromond except during meal times. In the same general vicinity of Bunratty are about a half-dozen or more medieval re-enactment castles and villages, but only Bunratty is open in the off season. Colm From: mmaxwell at whsun1.whoi.edu (Michael Maxwell) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: 13th Century Irish Help, Please Date: 20 Feb 1997 17:24:28 GMT Organization: Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution Cooley (freyac at mindspring.com) wrote: : I am trying to establish my personae, but I am having difficulties. : Thus I turn to you in the hope that you will lend me your aid and : wisdom. I need source material on the daily lives of the Irish in : this period. What they ate, how they dressed, etc. I am particulary : interested in the arms, armour, clothes, and jewelry of the Irish; : especially the Gallowglass mercenaries. For a contemporary view of late 12th century Ireland, read Gerald of Wales "History and Topography of Ireland", available from Penguin Books. I'll take a stab at the Latin (I don't have my book with me): Giraldus Cambrensis - Topographia Hiberniae. Gerald addresses alot of the stuff you're interested in. Osprey Books puts out a "Men-at-Arms" series. They have a book called "The Irish Wars." It gives good detail on weapons, armor, clothes, but focuses on the 1500's. There is also the "Oxford History of Ireland" edited by Foster, I believe. It might also have some blurbs about daily life and material culture. Regards, Mike Maxwell mmaxwell at whsun1.wh.whoi.edu From: Mary Hysong <ladymari at gila.net> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: 13th Century Irish Help, Please Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 06:25:25 -0800 Organization: Innovative System Design, Ltd Cooley (freyac at mindspring.com) wrote: : I am trying to establish my personae, but I am having difficulties. : Thus I turn to you in the hope that you will lend me your aid and : wisdom. I need source material on the daily lives of the Irish in : this period. What they ate, how they dressed, etc. I am particulary : interested in the arms, armour, clothes, and jewelry of the Irish; : especially the Gallowglass mercenaries. The book Illustrated Archeology of Ireland may also be helpful, as well as Mairhead Dunlevy's book Dress in Ireland. I have more stuff on the shelf and some sites on the net if you will send me your e-mail address I will help if I can. Slan agat (good bye) Mairi Broder, Atenveldt Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 07:46:26 -0500 From: maddie teller-kook <meadhbh at io.com> To: ansteorra at eden.com Subject: [Fwd: Celtic (Irish/Scot/Welsh/Manx) First Names] Here is a web page of interest......It has a gaelic word every day and goes thru the changes of the irish language from 400 C.E. to present. http://www.lincolnu.edu/~focal/archive.htm meadhbh Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 07:40:56 -0600 From: Nancy Lynch <lughbec at info2000.net> To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Greetings And HELP! > I am needing Information on Irish formal dress (Female) between 1000 > and 1200 A.D. I am wanting to make a complete outfit for one of the > ladies in my Household and as an ART-SCI entry. Unfortunatly I am unable > to find ANY information on this period. If you have any information at > all, It will be greatly appreciated. > > Gregor "The Mug" Jotun Gregor, a chara! (Greetings!) Dressing your ladies appropriately is a lovely gesture on your part. Are you also of Irish persona? For an A&S entry you will be busy in the library for a bit. The good news is that there aren't thousands of books to read, the bad news is that there isn't nearly enough information available. This time period is varied in it's influences so be prepared to do a bit of digging, both for Irish dress styles and refining the specifics of your household's ladies. By the tenth century Ireland was rife with Vikings. They were busily building towns, seaports, government centers, and trade routes. Dublin, a Norse/Scandinavian stronghold, was established in the 9th century. Then the Normans "visited" in 1169, and forgot to go home...:) So, though you end your requested time period in the 12th century, the nobility were being influenced in fashion and style by those "sons O' William the...Conqueror". After deciding what influences your household members have, then you can begin your search. If "strictly Irish" is what you hear, the following is a bibliography to get you started. If you cannot find these in your local library, inter-library loan is your friend! "Dress in Ireland" Mairead Dunlevy, Holms and Meier Publishers, 1989 "Handbook on the Traditional Old Irish Dress", H F McClintock, Dundalgen Press, 1950 "Costume and Fashion - the evolution of European dress through the earlier ages", Herbert Norris, J M Dent and Sons, 1924 Depending on how excited you are about "whole outfits" you might be interested in shoes.....look up: http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/carlson/SHOES If you get to where you have more specific questions let me know. Sonas ort! (Happiness on you!) T.H.Lady Lughbec ni Eoin Date: Wed, 1 Oct 97 13:00:14 -0500 To: <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG> From: <cward at awd.com> "C Ward, Software Support, x3115" Subject: re: ANST - North African/Irish Combo Platter From: "-Jax-" <jackson2 at apple.com>, on 10/1/97 7:07 AM: I have a friend, new to the SCA, who is developing her persona. The concept is a combined North African and Irish heritage, around the 10th century. Any ideas? What contact was there between these two cultures in this period? What sort of people from North Africa would have reason to go to Ireland at this time, or v v? -Erik Wulfriksson- House of Brick You are in luck! The Moorish kingdoms were sending ambassadors to Ireland at this period, specifically to the Irish Viking Colonies. One Arab chronicler, Al-Ghazal, wrote a commentary of his embassy and his dealings with the queen of the Vikings, who was a spae-wife and used to sit on the high altar at the church at Clonmacnoise and prophecy. There is a translation of Al-Ghazal, with commontary and background materials, available as "The Poet and the Spae-Wife". I am at work right now, and do not have the reference in front of me, but if your friend is interested in further details, they can write to me at gunnora at bga.com and I will direct them further. ::GUNNORA:: Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 18:25:51 -0700 From: Nancy Lynch <lughbec at info2000.net> To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Irish Anything and Everything... A really good book that I have been reading about Irish basic Medieval history is called - "Medieval Ireland, The Enduring Tradition"; by Michael Richter It is an easy read, interresting, accurate (as far as I have gotten and know of:) and has a nifty bibliography, maps, Irish society schematic, Irish words list, and a good index. Sonas ort! (Happiness on you!) Mistress Lughbec From: DDFr at best.com (David Friedman) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: medival migration Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 08:02:18 -0700 Organization: Santa Clara University observer at rogers.wave.ca wrote: > Does anybody know how common it was for irish nobles to migrate to >normandy in the periods of 1000 to 1300? This seems to be the case for my >mother's side of the family, the THIBAULTs. Why would they do it? What >happened? Could you refer me to a thorough web site? What i've found so far is >awfully vague and slanted. English nobles of Norman descent, led by Richard Strongbow, Earl of Pembroke, conquered a considerable part of Ireland in the 12th century, so by the end of the 12th century "Irish" nobles, in the sense of nobles holding land in Ireland, might easily be Normans. They might also be the descendants of Irish/Norman marriages. Strongbow himself married the daughter of Dermot, King of Leinster; their daughter, Isabel of Pembroke, married William Marshall. Isabel brought William large holdings in both Ireland and Normandy. David/Cariadoc Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 22:01:46 EDT From: LrdRas at aol.com Subject: SC - Ireland-OT-OOP In a message dated 6/13/98 6:07:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ddfr at best.com writes: << And which country and time period was this? According to my research, >in early Ireland, there were not baker's guilds, which would be a >function of a large city. Until the Vikings came, there were not >cities, just clan holdings. I don't think that this was as universal >as it seems at first. >> Technically, the culture of Ireland was not feudal in the way that the mainland or even England was feudal. Comparisons with it's culture and mainland European culture is for the most part an exercise in futility. There is a very good program about Ireland on the History Channel now called "A Short History of Ireland" which gives a very good basic understanding about Ireland and it's people. It was an eye opener for me. Ras Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 05:14:12 -0500 (CDT) From: "J. Patrick Hughes" <jphughes at raven.cc.ukans.edu> To: sca-arts at listproc.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Irish coins There is a lengthy treatment of early Irish currency in Fergus Kelly's _A Guide to Early Irish Law_. He states "The currency system revealed by the law texts and other documents is extremely complex. The value of an article or the amount of fine may be given in terms of cumals, sets, cattle or ounces of silver. Sometimes a combination of two or three currencies is used. For instance, Bretha Dein Checht rules that a person who inflicts a grain sized wound in the hollow of a king's temple must pay an ounce of silver, a milch cow and 5 sets." Cumal literally meant female slave but was used as a measure of value centuries after the practice of slavery was no longer around. A set seems much harder to define. Most of the currency described is not it terms of coins, though it would have been easy enough to have adopted silver coinage if it was introduced by invaders. Charles O'Connor jphughes at raven.cc.ukans.edu Date: Tue, 24 Nov 98 07:35:17 MST From: "j'lynn yeates" <jyeates at realtime.net> To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG, bryn-gwlad at Ansteorra.ORG Dates in Irish Myth and Legend http://indigo.ie/~legends/dates.html The Ulster Cycle: Heroic Myths and Legends from Ireland http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Arc/6084/ Subject: BG - book recomendation ... celtic myth and legend Date: Tue, 24 Nov 98 09:20:33 MST From: "j'lynn yeates" <jyeates at realtime.net> To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG, bryn-gwlad at Ansteorra.ORG The Tain: From The Irish Epic Tain Bo Cualnge Translated by Thomas Kinsella Oxford University Press ISBN 0-19-281090-1 a previous thread on real and perceived sumptuary law got me interested in the irish sumptuary laws as laid out in the brehon law codes ... requested information from the Clannada mailing list and was referred to their site ( http://www.clannada.org/ref1.html ) for an article on clothing that included some information and a specific pointer (from teh list) to this work, ordered online from Amazon.Com, arrived three days later (... gotta love em!). just finished a cursory scan and suggest that any with celtic segments in their libraries add it ... good translation, excellent notes, all in all a good reference to this important work 'wolf Subject: ANST - keltoi client system .. was: designated parasites Date: Mon, 08 Feb 99 16:16:18 MST From: "j'lynn yeates" <jyeates at realtime.net> To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG On 8 Feb 99, at 16:32, Decker, Terry D. wrote: > It is interesting to see how contemporary outsiders viewed the Celtic > social structure. It helps make sense of some of the more arcane academic > writings. If such things are to your taste, may I recommend a new read I'm starting to wade through (deep going so far) _Cattle Lords and Clansmen: The Social Structure of Early Ireland_, Nerys Paterson, University Notre Dame Press, ISBN: 0-268-00800 Anyone need a illdana with potential, but of dubious moral character (musical tastes, fashion sense, ...) as a client ??? ... "will philosophize for food & fuel" 'wolf Subject: Viking Age Decorated Wood Date: Wed, 17 Mar 99 21:13:36 MST From: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu> To: John_Cope at mail.enr.state.nc.us, stefan at texas.net I got this new book in today: , A Study of It's Ornament and Style by James T. Lang, National Museum of Ireland. Medieval Dublin Excavations1962-81 Royal Irish Academy. Full of things like fancy sword beaters, shuttles, winders, scoops, spindle, boxes,carding comb handle, a really neat wolf toggle, knife handles, an awl with a dragon head, stylus, etc. Some furniture bits, boxes, carvings. The awl has the blade bent nearly 90 degrees. I'm not gonna speculate on that one. Ordered from bookshop.co.uk 0901714690 17.66 pounds. on Internet. Got it since ordered on the 5th. http://www.bookshop.co.uk/hme/hmepge.asp The decorated sword beaters and some of the other items are rather neat. 102 pages, a bit bigger than the average big dover. Royal Irish Academy, 19 Dawson St., Dublin 2 HB 0 901714 68 2 PB 0 901714 69 0 Magnus I don't sell 'em. Have to order your own. Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 17:42:10 -0500 From: Steve Hughes <shughes at vvm.com> Subject: SC - Re: Celtic Dung fires Ras wrote: >Surprisingly dung of any type once thoroughly dried throws off very little if >any objectionable odor when used as fuel. Dungs have been and are currently >used as fuels by many cultures. I think the key work here is DRIED dung. In regard to dung fuels traditional used in Ireland, John M. Synge writes about cow dung fires in his book _The Aran Islands_ . He comments on having to escape outdoors to the local Celtic Dun (fort) to read because of the stench. Dung has been historically used on the Irish Islands as long as cows were present. Miranda Green's _Celtic Animals_ notes that a cow produces 24 kilos of dung a day, should you want to know what a good fuel source they are. Synge also comments on the presence of tiny rooms next to the Aran fire places to accommodate the chickens. A continuation of housing the animals inside with people. Miranda Green also mentions the presence of chicken bones in Celtic garbage heaps and that the chicken came from India. My thought was it was a hell of a long way for a chicken to walk to be gassed and kept warm by a cow dung fire. So should you be planning a Celtic Feast, chicken can be served! Pamela Hewitt, the Harper Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 06:09:22 MST From: "Caley Woulfe" <cwoulfe at life.edu> Subject: ANST - Fw: [TY] cool site!! To: "Ansteorran List" <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG> I got this off the Meridies tavern Yard... Caoillainn De Bhulbh, She-Wolf of Limerick "If Normal is relative, it must be a very distant relative..." -----Original Message----- From: Patricia Hefner <patricia.hefner at worldnet.att.net> To: TY at reashelm.ce.utk.edu <TY at reashelm.ce.utk.edu> Date: Tuesday, November 16, 1999 5:19 PM Subject: [TY] cool site!! >There's a GREAT site that's a history of Ireland in maps. It has a map for >each century, starting with B.C, then continuing with 100 A.D, and going up >to the twentieth century. The site also has a list of big time ruling >families of the century and some other prominent families, so it's >interesting if you're a genealogy greak and happen to have Irish blood like >yours truly. There are also time lines for each century. Geez, pretty soon >they'll have to put twenty-first...that will be weird. Anyway, here's the >URL for interested parties: > >http://www.fortunecity.com/bally/kilkenny/2/ire700.htm > >This will take you to the site for 700. There are buttons on the site that >will take you to the century of your choice. Enjoy! > >Isabelle Date: Fri, 03 Dec 1999 11:54:41 MST From: "Caley Woulfe" <cwoulfe at life.edu> Subject: ANST - Irish Stuff To: "Tavern Yard" <TY at reashelm.ce.utk.edu> CC: "Ansteorran List" <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG> For all you Irish types. This is a fairly good site; it's virtual tour of historical/mythological sites in Ireland; with some mythology tossed in for good measure. http://www.paddynet.com/island/ Caoillainn De Bhulbh, She-Wolf of Limerick Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 12:43:14 MST From: Sean Gulick <sean at utig.ig.utexas.edu> Subject: Re: ANST - Ireland To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG ches at io.com wrote: > What was the land mass of Ireland called in the year 1666? > > F. Havas Although I am not an authority on the subject, I am fairly certain it was called Ireland as today. During the War of the Roses which was quite a bit earlier it was was called Ireland and there was even a parlimentary office referring to Ireland by name (although I must admit I do not remember the exact office title). I do not know exactly when it was first called such but certaintly it was prior to 1666. Hope that helps. Gideon Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2000 16:12:58 MST From: Fopdejour1 at aol.com Subject: Re: ANST - Ireland To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG In a message dated 01/06/2000 7:12:10 PM, ches at io.com writes: << What was the land mass of Ireland called in the year 1666? F. Havas >> I am pretty sure it was called Ireland. In the official title of Elizabeth, She was titled: HRM Elizabeth by the Grace of God, Queen of England, France and Ireland, Supreme governor of the Church of England in all things ecclesiastical as well as temporal....or pretty close to that. Since it existed in 1508 as Ireland, I am pretty sure in 1666 under Charles II it was the same. The English part of Ireland, or the part actually controlled and settled by the English, was a very small area on the eastern coast was known as The Pale. Chas de B Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 10:12:31 MST From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at health.state.ok.us> Subject: RE: ANST - Ireland To: "'ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG'" <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG> IIRC, the Irish referred to the island as Eire. In more modern times, Eire has been used to also describe the nation-state formed by the Irish. During period, political groupings would have been described by Kingdoms, clans or leaders in the Celtic manner. The English referred to the island as Ireland. Bear Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 10:17:51 MST From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at health.state.ok.us> Subject: RE: ANST - Ireland To: "'ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG'" <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG> > Last crossword puzzle I did called it "Erin." Don't know > WHEN it was called that, though. > > /Ly Elizabeth H. Erin is a poetically form of Eire. Bear Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 20:31:45 MST From: Brent Hanner <behanner at castleliechtenstein.net> Subject: BG - A Medieval Tid-bit : Of Ireland To: "bryn-gwlad at ansteorra.org" <bryn-gwlad at ansteorra.org> OF IRELAND Yrlonde hight Hibernia, and is an island of the Ocean in Europe, and is nigh to the land of Britain, and is more narrow and straight than Britain, but it is more plenteous place. . . . In this land is much plenty of corn fields, of wells and of rivers, of fair meads and woods, of metal and of precious stones. For there is gendered a six cornered stone, that is to wit, Iris, that maketh a rainbow in the air, if it be set in the sun. And there is jet found, and white pearls. And concerning the wholesome air, Ireland is a good temperate country. There is little or none passing heat or cold, there be wonderful lakes, ponds, and wells. For there is a lake, in which if a staff or a pole of tree be pight, and tarrieth long time therein, the part that is in the earth turneth into iron, and the part that is in the water turneth into stone, and the part that is above the water, abideth still in its kind of tree. There is another lake in which if that thou throwest rods of hazel, it turneth those rods into ash: and ayenward if ye cast ashen rods therein, they turn into hazel. Therein be places in which dead carrions never rot: but abide there always uncorrupt Also in Ireland is a little island, in which men die not, but when they be overcome with age, they be borne out of that island to die without. In Ireland is no serpent, no frogs, nor venemous addercop; but all the land is so contrary to venemous beasts that if the earth of that land be brought into another land, and spronge on the ground, it slayeth serpents and toads. Also venemous beasts flee Irish wool, skins, and fells. And if serpents or toads be brought into Ireland by shipping, they die anon. Solinus speaketh of Ireland, and saith the inhabitants thereof be fierce, and lead an unhuman life. The people there use to harbour no guests, they be warriors, and drink men's blood that they slay, and wash first their faces therewith: right and unright they take for one. . . . Men of Ireland be singularly clothed and unseemly arrayed and scarcely fed, they be cruel of heart, fierce of cheer, angry of speech, and sharp. Nathless they be free hearted, and fair of speech and goodly to their own nation, and namely those men that dwell in woods, marshes, and mountains. These men be pleased with flesh, apples, and fruit for meat, and with milk for drink: and give them more to plays and to hunting, than to work and travail. Bartholomew Anglicus From: "Cathy Harding" <charding at nwlink.com> To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] OT: Trip to Ireland Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 18:06:39 -0700 Definitely go to the Irish national museum and the portrait gallery. They are both in Dublin. William spent several days in both, pressing his nose to the glass in the treasury room. He's a goldsmith and there were lots of lovely things.... Maeve. Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 16:14:45 +0200 From: Volker Bach <bachv at paganet.de> To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT: Trip to Ireland Robin Carroll-Mann schrieb: > After several years delay (buying a house put us off-schedule), my > lord and I are finally going to Ireland. We will be there from Sept. > 10 - 21. We are flying into Shannon and departing from Dublin. > We have booked a "self-drive tour" with a rental car and vouchers > for B&Bs. Our vague plan is to drive a semi-circular route along the > southern coast from Shannon to Dublin. At this point, our only > must-sees along the way are the Ring of Kerry, the Craggaunowen > Project, Blarney Castle, the Waterford factory, and Kilkenny City. I would definitely include Glendalough, an early Irish monastery with surviving 9th century buildings and a nice (though unfortunately not overwhelmingly informative) visitor center. Definitely allow a day or three for Dublin, too - the National Museum is stunning (and free, or used to be when I did a year at Trinity back in '96/97), the Viking Centre is somewhere between cute and wow (though pricey), and you should take the time for the Trinity Library and a few churches (none that old in the city, but quite a few with foundations going that far back). Also, by all means do some exploring along the south bank of the Liffey. Everybody keeps talking about 'Georgian Dublin', but I found that particluar part incredibly boring. 'Victorian Dublin' on the other hand is architecturally quite intriguing, and chock-full of bookshops, music stores and pubs (pricey and not at all 'authentic', but fun to be in). New Grange is a matter of taste - impressive, but sort of stone age (which it is, to be fair). > Any recommendations for places to visit/stay/shop/eat? Since my > persona is 10th century Irish, things related to that era would be of > particular interest. Oh, and I don't do beer or ale. At all. Is cider > readily available in pubs? I can only speak for the Dublin area, but I always found something to drink in the usually wide choice offered, and I don't drink any kind of alcohol. Giano From: "Cathy Harding" <charding at nwlink.com> To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] OT: Trip to Ireland Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 08:53:58 -0700 [the Dublin area] There is a wonderful restaurant in the Temple Bar (above the fly fishing place. It is called the Old Mill. We had a duck salad that was excellent and a bunch of other yummy stuff (It's early, I haven't had my Dr. Pepper yet.) Maeve From: "ruadh" <ruadh at home.com> To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT: Trip to Ireland Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 14:54:03 -0400 upon a time I had a link to Ireland's cell phones, that I could "prepay" one to use while there. Best to have as you B&B about, call ahead by 1 PM to have that night's stay fixed and reserved. Lunch is FINISHED by 2 PM, carry a poly cooler if you need snacks/drinks. get a 4 door hatch back to carry all your goodies; even if just two people. AAA [ state side] has the best maps! I bring several to trade for the local survey books. Kinsale - stay at Acton's, nice pool and singers in the pub. [but you're a week too early for the art festival there, 22-30 Sept]. Donegal - step dancing in the pub[s], was Wed nights. And before you leave Shannon, try Bunratty castle quote: The castle was built in the early 1400's by the McNamara family, but fell shortly afterwards to the O'Briens, kings of Thomond, who controlled the castle until the 17th century. Admiral Penn, father of William Penn, resided here for a short time. Today, the castle's Great Hall hold a very fine collection of 14th to 18th century furniture, paintings, and wall hangings. The Great Hall also hosts "medieval banquets" complete with maids playing the harp, court jesters, food a la the middle ages, and mead (a honey wine favoured by the Irish in the middle ages). http://www.historic.irishcastles.com/bunratty.htm a good "feast" can be had after visiting the village outside the castle. The mead is worth a 'try'. best Museum 1999 Waterford Treasures http://www.heritagecouncil.ie/mainpage.html lots of general -local info http://www.iol.ie/~discover/welcome3.htm and for the food content: Traditional Brown Bread [ I add raisins] http://www.iol.ie/~discover/recipe.htm Say hi to gramp's for me. Lord Morton of Morton parish, C.Cork. Ru Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT: Trip to Ireland Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 18:44:32 -0600 (MDT) From: Ann Sasahara <ariann at nmia.com> To: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcmann4 at earthlink.net> CC: "Mark.S Harris (rsve60)" <mark.s.harris at motorola.com> Greetings I'm very behind in my mail. I hope this is helpful. My family and I were in Dublin a couple on months ago and I had a pretty good time in spite of rain and a bank holiday. I omitted the Guinness-related things and most of the children's activities. You asked about a variety of things: Places to stay: We didn't stay at a B & B, but we did have a nice stay at the Camden Court Hotel at Camden St and Adelaide Rd. The restaurant served a good regional specialty soup called "Dublin Coddle" (potatoes, onions, sausage and bacon) which was perfect on damp rainy days. (I was surprised at the number of Indian restaurants, but the curry was also welcome in the damp June weather.) Pubs: The Camden Court pub is Piseogs ("Legends"). It's a weird, circular, tourist pub. The pubs near Trinity College were friendlier. The best pub we went to was The Brazen Head on Bridge St near the Liffey. It's Ireland's oldest pub, established in 1198 - the drinks are much fresher. The cider was excellent. The Guinness was exceptionally strong and bitter. I preferred Murphy's, which had the same rich flavour, but not the bitter after taste. In the hotel brochure rack, there was a pub hopping tour: 6 pubs in one night. The Brazen Head's restaurant was closed (bank holiday) so we went across the street to O'Shea's Restaurant. We had a filling lamb stew w/ fresh bread, lamb cutlets and grilled salmon at reasonable prices. The band started playing Irish music at about 9pm Cider: Strongbow, a crisp delightful slightly sweet cider was available everywhere, even in London. Shopping: since we didn't have a car, I only know the shopping places near the college and the tour bus stop: O'Connell St, Ld Edward St-Dame St and Nassau St. O'Connell is the best place for tourist items like T-shirts, souvenirs, discounted woolens and knits. There was even one store near the DublinTour/Guide Friday bus stop that had bohrains for L19 - L60 depending on size. (L1.00 = $1.36 June 4th rate) I didn't see anything here that I didn't see in the other two shopping areas. Ld Edward/Dame St was slightly more expensive. Ld Edward-Dame St is the stretch of road between Trinity College and Christ Church. It had a little bit of everything: bookstores, local crafts, tourist knick-knacks and galleries. This is where I spent money. Nassau St. is located immediately south of Trinity College. It has a variety of pricey, non-student stores. Waterford has a store there, as well as Irish woolens and Celtic Music. If you look in the hotel tourist brochure racks, you will find a L1.00 off coupon for the Celtic Music store. Things to do: Trinity College: the chapel had some nice stained glass windows. The old library has The Book of Kells. The displays involved videotapes of medieval calligraphy and bookbinding and natural pigments. We viewed this on the way to see the Book, so it wasn't a boring wait in line. They had two of the volumes of the Book of Kells as well as the Book of Armagh, under glass on display. Behind the books is a stairway leading up to the Long Room. At the beginning of the Room is a glass case on the right with the oldest Irish harp. The pamphlet said it was the harp of Brian Boru, but I doubt it. It is however a beautifully carved harp and it is the harp depicted on all the Irish coinage. The stairs from the Long Rm lead down into the gift shop. The only cookery books they had were: The Ballymaloe Cookbook, a cookbook put out by a popular restaurant and Traditional Irish Recipes, by George Thomson, a nicely illuminated and calligraphied book of contemporary and traditional Irish recipes that use potatoes, tomatoes and other things. It does have a recipe for Boxty bread, which was a past cooks-list topic - there are Boxty panckes too. There are many, many books on medieval topics, except cookery. The real bargain is the Book of Kells on CD-ROM. It's a full reproduction of the Book with special close-ups of 14 pages. It uses QuickTime to "turn" the pages. QuickTime is included on the CD-ROM. Dublin Castle: it was tediously Restoration, but the garden in the back was nicely contemporary and the Chester Beatty Library (jade books, illuminated Q'urans, books of hours, etc) was the best thing about the Castle. In the castle shop right off of Dame St you can get a guide book called _Medieval Dublin by Violet Martin. The book is exceptionally detailed and has a fold out map. The first stop listed in the book is right outside the castle shop: Dame Gate. The book covers an area of Dublin that's easily walked (30 min in any direction); which is good, because there isn't much available parking. Dublinia/Christ Church: We purchased a combined ticket. You start at the Dublinia side and progress through the displays and activity rooms. It was cold and rainy outside, so the kids really liked this. My favorite was the 15 th c Dublin diorama w/ the talking history buttons. The kids liked the medieval fair room where we looked at period foods & spices and played ring toss. There is a stairway to the top of St Michael's Tower ~200', which I let the kiddies do w/o me. They said it had great views. I'll take their word. We entered Christ church through the Dublinia bookstore. The first thing I noticed was the colorful floor tiles - they are the originals. The Lady Chapel was the best part of the church, including the heart of St Laurence, a relic that survived the dissolution of the monasteries. The crypt is highly over-rated. There is a Restoration Era display of church plate in the crypt that's not quite worth the L2 admission. The rest of the crypt is free of charge. All the guide books are wrong about the mummified cat and rat from the organ pipe. The mummified cat/rat display was moved out of the crypt into the nave, to a niche to the right of the crypt doorway, about 10' above the floor. They made it impossible to see/find. Also in the nave, is an effigy (by the gift counter) of Strongbow (Richard de Clare, 2 nd Earl of Pembroke). He was the Norman conqueror of Dublin, friend of Henry II, founder of Christ Church and the namesake of a yummy cider. Natl Museum (TaraBrooch)/St Patrick's Cathedral (Swift's burial place, but that's a different SCA-cooks thread)/Marsh's Library (Ireland's oldest public library)/The Viking Adventure: we ran out of time. Let me know how they are. Things to do outside of Dublin: Malahide: We took a half-day trip to Malahide Castle about an hour north of Dublin. Founded in 1185, it's one of the oldest castles in Ireland and in perfect condition. The front exterior and upper front rooms and the Great Hall are still period (1500s). The paneling and furniture are splendid. Ignore the Chippendale chairs in the Great Hall. The side and back living areas are Restoration and Georgian. The shop had the same medieval and cookery books as Trinity College. The drive along the coast with the June wildflowers in bloom on the rocky cliffs was exceptional - picnic perfect. Glenalough/Powerscourt/Bailey's: they're in a line on a highway between Arklow and Dublin and they can be done, more or less, in one day. Glenalough has a 10 th c round tower that fits your period. The buildings and hermit cave at the upper lake are earlier and the buildings at the lower lake are 12 th c. St Kevin's kitchen (lower lake) is really an oratory - the bell tower just looks like a chimney. Powerscourt is a collection of impressive gardens. Be sure to see the tiny Japanese garden hidden in the trees to the left of the lak