Hungary-msg - 10/6/18

Medieval Hungarian history and culture.

NOTE: See also these files: Germany-msg, Europe-msg, East-Eur-msg, Balkans-msg.

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From: greg at bronze.lcs.mit.edu (Greg Rose)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Hungary and Western Europe
Date: 3 Jul 1993 17:35:10 -0400
Organization: MIT LCS guest machine

Unto the good gentles of the Rialto does Hossein Ali Qomi send
greetings and prayers for the blessings of Allah.

The debate over whether Hungary was a part of medieval Western Europe
has become rather a tendatious exercise.  God knows, there are few
limits to pedantry, but questioning whether Hungary was part of the
West in the middle ages seems to me to test even these paltry limits.

The chief problem seems to be that most of the participants know next
to nothing about medieval Hungarian history.

A far-too-brief summary of said history:

After the Emperor Otto I defeated the Magyars at Lechfeld in 955,
Christianity began to permeate the Magyar leadership, culminating in
the acceptance of Catholic Christianity by the Arpad line under Geza
in 975.  Geza's heir, Stephen, was wed to Gisela, the daughter of
Henry II of Bavaria and the sister of the Emperor Henry II, in 996. 
Pope Silvester II vested Stephen with royal dignity and a crown in
1000.  Stephen I of Hungary was canonized in 1073.  After the civil
war ensuing on Stephen's death, Ladislaus II restored order (1077-95)
and closely allied Hungary with the imperial throne and the papacy
(not an easy balancing game).  Laidslaus II was canonized in 1192. 
Ladislaus' line continued close relations with the major European
powers.  Bela III (1172-96) married a Capetian princess (part of a
French attempt to woo Hungary from the imperial sphere of influence). 

Andrew II joined the rest of Europe on crusade in 1217, as a result
of which in 1222 he was presented with a baronial revolt not unlike
that experienced by John in England.  Like John, he was forced to
grant a charter of baronial rights, the "Golden Bull."  Upon Andrew's
death, the papal-supported candidate, Charles Robert of Anjou, a
scion of the Angevin line in Naples, became Charles I, ruling from
1308 to 1342.  The wealth of Hungary became the primary support of
Angevin dominance in southern Italy.  Charles' granddaughter, Mary,
married Sigismund of Luxemburg in 1387.  Sigismund ruled with her
until her death in 1395 and alone until 1437.  He was,
simultaneously, Holy Roman Emperor and King of Bohemia.  Sigismund's
son, Albert V of Austria, succeeded him, but died shortly thereafter,
and was succeeded by his son, Ladislaus V.  Ladislaus V was so
occupied with his imperial interests that he appointed a legate and
governor for Hungary, John Hunyadi.  After Ladislaus' death,
Hunyadi's son, Matthias Corvinus, was placed on the throne by a
magnate-led rebellion.  Corvinus prosecuted war against the empire,
seizing and ruling until his death Austria, Carinthia, and Styria.

So, we see that:
	1.  Hungary produced two sainted kings (and, thus, had the pull
with the papacy, no mean feat, to obtain papal favor) -- just like
France (England wasn't even close to having that kind of pull -- the
Anglo-Saxon royal saints weren't canonized by the papacy).
	2.  The Hungarian monarchy was established by papal grant -- like
that of the Carolingians (remember Pippin the Short?).
	3.  A king of Hungary ruled the Holy Roman Empire -- no French
king after the Carolingians did, no English king did.
	4.  Hungary was at the center of medieval European political
marriages and pivotal to the alliance system.
	5.  The king of Hungary participated in crusade -- like the Holy
Roman Emperor, the King of France, the King of England, etc.
	6.  Hungary experienced the same sort of baronial unrest as
England in approximately the same time-frame with virtually the same
results.

Even a cursory familiarity with the role of Hungary in medieval
European political history makes nonsense of the claim that Hungary
wasn't part of the medieval West.  The fact that most SCAdians are
fascinated with England and France leads them often to forget that
the center of medieval Western Europe was the Rhine, not the English
Channel.  If Hungary is peripheral to medieval Western Europe,
England is just as peripheral and Ireland is like the bloody Ukraine.

This isn't the result of some marginal Spenglerian analysis or an ad-
hoc recitation of "contributions," but rather of detailed analysis of
the fabric of political and social relations in the middle ages. 
Contrary to David the Fretful's supposition, it is not in grand
theory than this becomes obvious, but in careful attention to the
details.  That's _why_ historians specialize.

Greg/Hossein


From: helm at ymir.ucdavis.EDU (Seriously Tweaked)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Western Civ, scrolls
Date: 4 Jul 1993 01:03:19 -0400
Organization: The Internet

David:
No, I'm not at all Sir Wiglaf, though we're friends.  I've known
him since he first joined.  Wiglaf is currently in Berkeley, suffering
through historical language school for his sins (that's what happens
to all those poor sods who get PhD's in medieval history - thank God
I'm just a science nerd  ;-)

With regards to my stirring the pot up on this debate: I really have
no emotional attachment to one view or another.  If I were a real
historian, specializing in medieval eastern europe, I might be qualified
to have a real opinion.  I have had courses in eastern european history
and culture, and I've been to most of the counties in eastern europe,
in order to stand around and see with my own eyes the momuments of
its history.

I probably suffer from the Viennese viewpoint that the East starts
on the far side of the 2nd district of Vienna, mostly because I lived
in Vienna and learned most of my initial schooling in eastern european
history there.  There really is, by the way, a major cultural split
in south-eastern europe that starts just about at Vienna.  Places
to the east of Vienna are remarkable different from places to the west,
though that may be more due to the Cold War than anything else.  Hungary
is vastly different from Austria.  Though the Michalskirche in Budapest
is a fine example of gothic architecture, other medieval buildings
(the few that survive) are very different from those you find west of
Vienna (just as an example).

There's an interesting things about medieval roofs, by the way.  You
find medieval roofs on churches and municipal buildings which are
covered with patterned tiles.  Some are simple geometric, and some
make pictures (usually heraldic).  You find these in Transylvania,
Hungary, and eastern Austria.  I did some research with Frau Dr.
Weissgabber, an art historian living in Vienna on these roofs.
The tiled patterned roof farthest west that we found was on the tower
to the water gate in Lindau, on Lake Constance.  On inquiry, it turned
out that the medieval locals imported Hungarian roofers to do the
roof there.  The most eastern example we found was on an orthodox
church in Bulgaria.  I recently heard of a tiled patterned roof in
southern France, which leaves me very curious.  Anyone know anything
about this?

But I ramble (don't agree _too_ loudly  ;-)  I contended that Hungary
wasn't like the rest of "western europe".  My contention was based
on the fact that the cultural remains of the middle ages in Hungary
_are_ different.  Building styles, sculpture styles, the way they
painted - they are all different from that which you find in Austria,
Germany, and France (not to mention Prague).  Hungary never saw
that episode of art history called the Renaissance (neither did
most of Austria, by the way).  Hungary was NOT a participant in the
"international style of 1200 AD."  Culturally, I would argue that
Hungary was indeed different from its more "western" neighbors,
Transylvania, Austria, and Bohemia.

Anyway, that's a brief synopsis of why I said what I said.  Hossein's
brief political history of Hungary was very nice, by the by.  From
that viewpoint, it's hard to argue that Hungary wasn't in the mainstream
of western european history.  He's got good point there.

Regardless of how you view east vs west, I for one have actually
enjoyed this thread (and learned a few things too).  (After reading
Hossein's post on Hungary, I pulled my copy of the history of Hungary
out of my bookshelf, and have started to reread it.  I certainly
could not have rattled off a brief history of Hungary half as well.)

The most "western" place in eastern europe is Transylvania, which if
you think about it, should come as no great surprise.  The towns
_look_ german, the churches are all gothic, the castles would be
equally at home perched along the Rhine.

Scrolls:
You should move to the West, Tadhg.  Several scribes here have been
producing document style scrolls for years, complete with dependent
seals.  We even do secretary hands on them, not book hands (and have
developed a few examplars from scratch of hands used on documents,
just because calligraphy books usually don't cover secretary hands).

this post has gotten long enough...
I'm cheerfully looking forward to being torn to bits...  ;-)
toddles,
Twcs (dilatante of history)


From: Tim at f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: HELP! Need Magyar/Hungarian Name Book
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1993 19:12:38

 Scripsit Ceidyrch ap Llywelyn:

 CaL> I post this as a request for assistance.  I am a shire pursuivant
 CaL> trying to track down a Magyar/Hungarian name book.  Does anyone out
 CaL> there know of a good one.  If you do, I would appreciate it if you
 CaL> could send me the title, author, and the Library of Congress Call
 CaL> Number. It would be EXTREMELY helpful.

 Bela Kalman, _The World of Names: A Study in Hungarian Onomatology_
 (Budapest: Akademiai Kiado, 1978). Sorry, don't have the LC number.

    Tadhg, Hanaper
    ocitor!tim.4229 at rwsys.lonestar.org


From: davesg at netaxs.com (David J. Szent-Gyorgyi)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Information on Hungary anyone...
Date: 24 Jan 1996 11:29:15 GMT
Organization: Philadelphia's Complete Internet Provider

Denise Pirko (dpirko at uoguelph.ca) wrote:
: Okay.  I really want to create a hungarian personna, as it is my
: background, but being stuck here in Guelph makes finding info hellish.
: I'm basically thinking of around 1400, but 100 years either way wouldn't
: matter.  Any info or connections that anyone could give me, especially
: having to do with garb and names (though stuff on the socoiety and
: culture are also useful) would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks alot
:       -Dee

Szervusz!

Recently a mailing list for people interested in central and
Eastern Europe in the SCA was announced.  I'll look up the
contact info and forward it to you.  

I'm glad to see someone else exploring their heritage this way.
I'm second generation, and working on a late 15th and early 16th
century Hungarian persona from the largest town in Transylvania.
Arpad is born within ten years of the assassination of Vlad the
Impaler, and there is some popular material available on him.
Assuming that Arpad lives to the age of seventy, he lives
through the reign of Hungary's one great Renaissance king,
Matthias Corvinus.  Arpad survives the Turkish conquest of
Hungary and the establishment of Transylvania as a
semi-independent state, and lives through the early years of the
Reformation -- of which Transylvania was a center.  Not bad for
one lifetime, eh? :-)

I picked Transylvania because I guessed that the survival of the
area as a semi-independent land would mean that more of the
Transylvanian Period physical sites would remain today than
would be the case for the rest of the country.  My aunt, a
historian of Hungary who specialies in the time of King Zsigmond
(1430-ish), tells me that my guess was wrong.  Overall, the
best-preserved sites are in what was known as Upper Hungary --
basically modern political Slovakia and Ruthenia (the part of
Czechoslovakia swallowed by the U.S.S.R. after the Second World
War).  If you want to base your persona in Upper Hungary, you
might put her in Poszony (modern Bratislava), as the city has a
long and distinguished Hungarian history, or in Kassa (modern
Kosice).  Don't expect the modern Slovakian authorities to help
you, though.  They have a sizeable Hungarian minority, and don't
like them at all. :-(

Given the time frame and place you've picked, no matter what you
do, your persona will live in one of the great states of
Europe.  Depending on the time you pick, she will live in a
country recovering from the Black Death and the Mongols; a great
empire at a dynastic height; or a country under increasing
pressure from the Ottoman threat.  Many of the places in which
you might put here will be home numerous ethnic groups.
Transylvania was home to four or five, for example.  

I'm still looking for a general history of Hungary, myself.  

When I registered my name and arms at Pennsic XX, Lothar, who
hangs out here on the Rialto a lot, referred to _The World of
Names_ or _The Book of Names_, by Kalman, I can't remember which
title is correct off the top of my head.  At that point, he told
me that the Society had relatively little information on
Hungarian heraldry.  I've been to Hungary since, and I have a
museum guide-sized volume on the subject, but it's in Hungarian
and has comparatively few illustrations.  The best resource I've
found is a big mucking book of reproductions of illuminations
and leather bookbindings from the library of Matthias Corvinus.
It's also interesting in that the illuminations are in four or
five styles, and one or two of them are based on aesthetics
unlike those of any other illuminations I've seen. I'm no
expert, but I'll hazard a guess that the oddballs reflect
the influence of Hungarian folk arts -- they remind me of
Hungarian embroidery, painted ceramics and painted wood --
though these are all post-Period, so I can't prove it with the
certainty of a scholar.  

For garb: I think you'll end up looking at paintings,
sculptures, illuminations and block prints.  I have a couple of
resources listed among my books, though the list itself isn't
handy.

In my spare time, I'm working on an introduction to the
resources I have collected. The introduction will be in two
parts: a list of the books, complete with sketchy notes on each;
and a written introduction including some more detailed
highlights of the resources than the booklist provides. If you
can wait, I'll send you both when they're done -- this will
probably take several months.

Failing that, I can email you the booklist as it now stands. It
will give you some idea of what's out there.  I'll be glad to
answer questions about it while I work on the final version.

Viszontlatasra!
,  ,
Arpad
---                                                                ,   ,  ,
Dave Szent-Gyorgyi                                          Kolozsvari Arpad
davesg at netaxs.com                Bhakail & Hartshorn-dale, East Kingdom, SCA
       Sable, a trident between two hippocampi respectant Or.


From: mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Information on Hungary anyone...
Date: 24 Jan 1996 13:59:00 -0500
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC

Greetings from Arval!

> Any info or connections that anyone could give me, especially
> having to do with garb and names (though stuff on the socoiety and
> culture are also useful) would be greatly appreciated.

I haven't studied Hungary particularly, but I've come across a couple
things that you may find interesting.

There is a book, "The World of Names" by Bela Kalman, which is a terrible
general reference on names, but which has a pretty decent section on
Hungarian naming.  I don't know of any better reference in English.  But be
careful: Don't trust anything that isn't explicitly dated.

In "Knights of the Crown", by D'Arcy Boulton, there are sections on two
Hungarian chivalric orders.  Each is accompanied by a short summary of
Hungarian history at the time of the order.  I found it interesting, and it
contains quite a few names.  It's also a really nifty book!

	Arval.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

   Author:        Kaalmaan, Baela, 1913-
   Uniform Title: Nevek vilaaga. English
   Title:         The world of names : a study in Hungarian onomatology
		     / by Baela Kaalmaan.
   Published:     Budapest : Akadaemiai Kiadao, 1978.
   Description:   198 p. : ill. ; 25 cm.
   LC Call No.:   PH2576 .K313 1978
   Dewey No.:     494/.511/2
   ISBN:          9630513994
   Notes:         Translation of the 3d ed. of A nevek vilaaga.
		  Includes index.
		  Bibliography: p. 169-[173]
   Subjects:      Hungarian language -- Etymology -- Names.
		  Names, Geographical -- Hungary.
		  Names, Personal -- Hungary.
   Control No.:   79300962 //r842

   Author:        Boulton, D'Arcy Jonathan Dacre, 1946-
   Title:         The knights of the crown : the monarchical orders of
		     knighthood in later medieval Europe, 1325-1520 /
		     D'Arcy Jonathan Dacre Boulton.
   Published:     New York : St. Martin's Press, 1987.
   Description:   xxv, 540 p. : ill. ; 24 cm.
   LC Call No.:   CR4513 .B68 1987
   Dewey No.:     929.7/1/094 19
   ISBN:          0312458428 : $25.00 (est.)
   Notes:         Includes bibliographical references.
   Subjects:      Orders of knighthood and chivalry -- Europe --
		     History.
		  Knights and knighthood -- Europe -- History.
		  Europe -- Kings and rulers.
   Control No.:   86001820 //r95


From: ladyallyn at aol.com (Lady Allyn)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Hungarian "wanderer"
Date: 13 Sep 1996 00:46:30 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)

[A gentle had asked about a Hungarian name for "the wanderer" (editor)]

Gentle Friend,

I had the opportunity to ask a native Hungarian gentleman what the
historic reference for "wanderer" or "Pilgrim" would have been. To his
knowledge, there is/was no specific term for a religious pilgrim, and the
"travellers" were/are "gypsies" as nearest translated, not to be confused
with the "ethnic Gypsy".  In Hungarian the term is ciga'na for an
individual, ciga'nyok for a group.  The pronounciation is: see-guy-nuyh /
see-guy-nuyh-ahk, emphasis guy, very short nuyh. (boy, I wish I knew how
to do phoetic on the computer without benefit of italics and accents)
These are the folk who travelled from town to town, craftsmen of various
kinds, often musicians and artists.  His recollection of (our period)
history lessons is that they were virtually the only people who travelled
around the region other than military/mercenary folk.  He also said that
they took what they learned from town to town (crafts/skills, etc) and
either performed them - for pay - or taught others - also for pay. The
penalty for stealing was hanging.  He could not recall and specific
library references offhand, but did suggest the library in Budapest has a
significant historical collection and a fair amount of it may be
accessable online.

Peace and Strength, 
Lady Allyn


From: Andrea Luxenburg <Edl at mail.albany.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: 14th - 15th century Hungarian Houpelands...
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 18:29:04 -0800
Organization: AlbanyNet - E-mail info at albany.net

L. S. Peck wrote:
> 
> jlulow at server1.natcol-rcy.EDU wrote:
> >
> > If I was living in Hungary around this time (1450's to 1550's) what
> > would I be wearing???
> 
> You would be wearing simular garb to any one else living in slavic
> countries. By looking at a map I find Hungry to be located in between
> Poland and Romania.
> 
> I have garbed a man in Polish costume of simular time period. The outfit
> was simple in cut, made of warm fabrics such as wool and fur and very
> adorned with embroidery and the like. These are very rich and stately
> costumes.
> 
> Start with Russian as there is more information on that country's
> costumes than most others.
> 
> Good luck
> Mistress Rhianwen

While it may be true that dress in Hungary would have been similar to 
that in surrounding countries - I know nothing to the contrary - Hungary 
is not a Slavic country; Hungarian is not even an Indo-European language, 
much less Slavic.  It is distantly related to Finnish, Estonian and 
Turkish, all members of the Ural-Altaic group of lnaguages, most of which 
are native to north and central Asia.

Gwen Goosefoot, nitpicker extraordinaire


From: davesg at netaxs.com (David J. Szent-Gyorgyi)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: 14th - 15th century Hungarian Houpelands...
Date: 22 Nov 1996 13:03:03 GMT
Organization: Net Access - Philadelphia's Original ISP

I find myself amending the words of someone who certainly knows
more about garb than I do. I hope, Mistress, that you understand
that I claim no expertise, and am working from general
knowledge.  I wish to make clarify a few things, in the hope
that the other Gentles on this Bridge won't gain mistaken
impressions.

In <32920776.4ED at primenet.com>,
L. S. Peck <rhianwen at primenet.com> wrote:

> jlulow at server1.natcol-rcy.EDU wrote:
> > 
> > If I was living in Hungary around this time (1450's to 1550's) what
> > would I be wearing???
> 
> You would be wearing simular garb to any one else living in slavic
> countries. By looking at a map I find Hungry to be located in between
> Poland and Romania. 

Though Hungarians count numerous Slavic peoples among their
neighbors, they are not Slavs, and you'll find Hungarian
clothing and motifs distinct from those of their Slavic
neighbors.  

> I have garbed a man in Polish costume of simular time period. The outfit
> was simple in cut, made of warm fabrics such as wool and fur and very
> adorned with embroidery and the like. These are very rich and stately
> costumes. 

Simple in cut?  Depends on the persona's class, location, and
time.  Peasant clothing, might be simple in cut, but Renaissance
Italian influence was pronounced on the late-Period Hungarian
Court.

I'll agree on the use of warm fabric, and the use of fur as
trim, but that doesn't give an idea of the style.  As to
richness and stateliness, I'm looking for information on that.
I've been told that the Period version of the szur, the
Hungarian cowboy's cloak, lacked the elaborate embroidery of
20th Century examples.

Post-period Hungarian embroidery varies drastically from region
to region, so the question is, how far back does such variation
go.

> Start with Russian as there is more information on that country's
> costumes than most others. 

Please do not start with Russian garb; while the Hungarians
passed through part of modern-day Russia on their way west, they
did not simply adopt Russian traditions.  For one thing, this
passage took place in the late ninth century, before there was
a Russia.  

Now that I've said all of that, I'd like to direct your
attention to the home page of the Slavic Interest Group.  I've
put a copy of my partially-annotated list of resources on Things
Hungarian among their resources, because they're also working on
Central and Eastern Europe.  If you want to learn about the
differences between Things Hungarian and Things Slavic, check
there.  

Their home page can be reached at 
http://vms.www.uwplatt.edu/~goldschmidt/slavic.html

Anyone with questions or comments (or further resources!)
may feel free to e-mail me.
,  ,
Arpad,
15th/16th/20th Century Magyar :-)
---                                                                ,   ,  ,
Dave Szent-Gyorgyi                                          Kolozsvari Arpad
davesg at netaxs.com                Bhakail & Hartshorn-dale, East Kingdom, SCA


From: Liz Beecher <beecheer at hpohp4.wgw.bt.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: 14th - 15th century Hungarian Houpelands...?
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:16:36 -0800
Organization: British Telecommunications plc

It is reputed that jlulow at server1.natcol-rcy.EDU wrote:
> If I was living in Hungary around this time (1450's to 1550's) what
> would I be wearing???

Erm.... you could have a look at a wonderful book on-line by following the
link below - they definately cover the slavic countries

http://www.siue.edu/COSTUMES/COSTUME10_INDEX.HTML

If I remember rightly I bookmarked it at 1600 so you will need go
backwards to find your period.

Liz Beecher
-- 
Editor - The Culverin - The Journal of The Siege Group 

Making the English Civil War Live
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/The_Siege_Group


From: eduardvz at aol.com (EduardVZ)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Hungarian Persona
Date: 4 Apr 1997 09:00:11 GMT

There is a book put out by Osprey in their Man-at-Arms Series called
Hungary and the fall of Eastern Europe 1000-1568. It has some very
interesting historical information and some beautiful illustrations of
Garb and armour.

Good luck and a nice choice if I might add.

Eduard II, Rex, Galandor
Knight Bannerette, Knight Minister
http://members.aol.com/eduardvz


Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:33:52 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - OT, places

> I keep running into mention of the Kumans and the Seklers.  Does anyone 
> have a clue as to who these people are?
>
> Bogdan din Brasov

Sekler is a Germanicized form of the Hungarian, Szekely.  The Szekely are
recognized (by the Magyar) as a branch of the Magyar, sharing a similar
language and customs.  Szekelyfold was one of the three administrative areas
of Transylvania, the others being Szaszfold (Saxon) and the Seven Counties
(being Wallachian and Szekely).

Present day Szekely are a Rumanian ethnic minority numbering about 400,000.

Bear


Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 21:09:33 -0600 (CST)
From: jeffrey stewart heilveil <heilveil at students.uiuc.edu>
Subject: RE: SC - OT, places

Careful with that seven counties bit.  Siebenbuergischen is the German for
Transylvania itself, it does not refer to anywhere else.

On Mon, 23 Mar 1998, Decker, Terry D. wrote:
> Sekler is a Germanicized form of the Hungarian, Szekely.  The Szekely are
> recognized (by the Magyar) as a branch of the Magyar, sharing a similar
> language and customs.  Szekelyfold was one of the three administrative areas
> of Transylvania, the others being Szaszfold (Saxon) and the Seven Counties
> (being Wallachian and Szekely).
>
> Present day Szekely are a Rumanian ethnic minority numbering about 400,000.
>
> Bear


Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 02:10:00 EST
From: Varju <Varju at aol.com>
Subject: Re: SC - OT, places

<< The Szekely are  recognized (by the Magyar) as a branch of the Magyar,
sharing a similar  language and customs.  Szekelyfold was one of the three
administrative areas of Transylvania, the others being Szaszfold (Saxon) and
the Seven Counties (being Wallachian and Szekely). >>

Bits of further information on this.  Whether the Szekely are actually related
to the Magyar is a matter of conjecture.  They settled in the region shortly
after the arrival of the Magyars in 895. I'm not sure what is meant by three
administrative areas of Transylvania, but I do know that the three recognized
ethnic groups of Transylvania were the Saxon (German), Magyar(Hungarian) and
Szekely in the Unio trium nation (Union of the three nations) in 1437.

Noemi


Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 09:07:54 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - OT, places

That is the German view of Transylvania.  What is the Hungarian view of
Transylvania?

I think that the administrative districts may have been created as part of a
Magyar incursion into Rumanian and German territory.  That would have meant
that land claimed by the Hungarians as part of Transylvania would be seen as
totally different territory by the Germans.

I tend to take most land claims with a grain of salt unless I have some idea
of the actual history of the area.  My Central European history is very
sketchy, so I don't think I have a good enough grasp of the historical
perspective to say what view is correct.  BTW, German territorial views are
very suspect, until proven correct, in that scholarly propaganda was created
to support political claims to "traditional" German territory during this
century.

Bear


From: davesg at netaxs.com (David J. Szent-Gyorgyi)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Bohemian persona
Date: 17 Apr 1998 05:53:39 GMT

On 15 Apr 1998 06:11:05 GMT, Katherine Norris <knorris at richmond.edu> wrote:
>I'm looking into a Bohemian persona, and I was wondering if
>there was anyone out here who had one or could point me towards
>some information.   The time span I'm currently looking at is
>1350's to 1400ish, although I'm open to other suggestions.  Any
>information on culture, names, history, clothing would be
>greatly appreciated.
>
>Kai

Two suggestions: 

The specific one.  Go through Wagner, Eduard. _Medieval Costume,
Armour, and Weapons (1350-1450)._ London: Paul Hamlyn, 1962.  

The title is misleading.  This book was produced in
Czechoslovakia, and focuses on Hussite Bohemia--though it
includes material on gear and garb of other areas that were of
importance at the time.  It begins with many pages of essays,
and finishes with many pages of illustrations drawn from primary
and Period secondary sources.  It's coffee-table sized, and
exists in translations into German and English as well as the
original.  

I blundered into it while looking up something quite unrelated,
and hunted down a copy because it included more illustrations of
Hungarian garb and gear than I'd seen collected anywhere else.
The drawings of costume are not made for reenactors and
recreationists, so they don't necessarily serve as patterns--but
they do give a good visual sense of the piece, and citations are
made for almost every one (the one source for the Hungarian
stuff is given by author's name only, alas--I'm hunting for it).

Trust after you verify, as with any source.  My garb-historian
friends tell me that the gorgeous illustration of a Hungarian
archer, which is made after a Duerer etching, Just Isn't Typical
Hungarian.  Nonetheless, I trust Duerer's eye and hand, and want
a look at the original.  Anyone know where I can find a full
reproduction of his "Nurnberger Feldschlange?"

I don't know whether this book is available via Inter-Library
Loan.  Swarthmore College's library has a copy.

The general suggestion: Join the Slavic Interest Group, and
start with their bibliography. Their home page is at URL
http://vms.www.uwplatt.edu/~goldschmidt/slavic.html .  They're
happy to serve as a clearing-place for information on Central
and Eastern Europe, Slav or not.
,  ,
Arpad
---                                                      ,   ,  ,
Dave Szent-Gyorgyi                                Kolozsvari Arpad
davesg at netaxs.com                Hartshorn-dale, East Kingdom, SCA
"We HAVE to build a 'Net                  Sable, a trident between
 that handles diacriticals!"          two hippocampi respectant Or.


From: palotay at aol.com (Palotay)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Hungarian help
Date: 4 Jul 1998 19:46:06 GMT

Tal logan wrote
>The only Hungarians that I know of is Elizabeth Bathory and Drac.

(this looks very much like a troll, but I'll bite anyway)
Elizabeth Bathory was, indeed, Hungarian.  Whether the things they accuse her
of doing in her later years (torturing servants, etc.) are true, I wouldn't
know, but every family, even the Bathory one, is allowed a few insane members,
I think.
As for Dracula:  modern research puts Vlad II.'s (Dracula's) castle in Romania
proper (not Transylvania, which was only given to Romania after WWI.  Unfairly,
I might add, but that would be getting way off topic...)   Vampires are a
Victorian English invention, and they are not found in Hungarian mythology.  I
don't know whether they are found in Romanian legends and stories, but the fact
remains, Dracula (if he existed) was not Hungarian.
As for there being no other Hungarians you know of, I'm sorry for your
ignorance.  In the period the original question mentioned (late 1400's),
Hungary was experiencing it's renaissance (only a century before the English
Renaissance, I might add), Matthias Corvinus was the king, Italian princess
Beatrix was his queen, and the Turks were still being held at bay by the Black
Army.  Matthias assembled the greatest library of his time, rebuilt the
capital, and according to legend, was a great champion of justice for the
common people.  He is widely held to be the greatest ruler Hungary ever had. 
 I suppose I could list a few other Hungarians of note (any other member of the
Bathory family comes to mind), but this much should be enough to start you off
in a search for more and better information.

Sorry for the long rant, folks...just thought I would try to educate Mr. Logan
a bit.

Martha
(why yes, I _am_ Hungarian--why do you ask? :)


From: jlnash55 at aol.com (JLNash55)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Hungarian help
Date: 4 Jul 1998 23:49:19 GMT

> Dracula (if he existed) was not Hungarian.

Vlad the Impaler (Dracula) did in fact live, had close ties to transylvania and
was Prince of Wallachia...three seperate times.  He was also allied with
Hungary against the Turks.  Just had to mention it.  

>Matthias assembled the greatest library of his time, rebuilt the
>capital, and according to legend, was a great champion of justice for the
>common people.  He is widely held to be the greatest ruler Hungary ever had. 

As for the good king Matthias Corvinus, why do you think I chose this period
for my persona?  :)

It's great to hear from other Hungarians!
Nynaatchka


From: SNSpies at aol.com
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 14:46:42 EST
To: harleypig at Juno.com, highland-foorde at cybergoyle.ml.org,
        atlantia at atlantia.sca.org

<< I'm new to the S.C.A. and looking for more info.
  on 11th and 12th century Hungarian/Polish (clothing ,food ,armor.....). >>

Siklodi, Csilla, ed.  "Between East and West:  Everyday Life in the Hungarian
Conquest Period ("Uber die Grenze Zwischen Ost und West:  Ungarn im 9-11.
Jahrhundert").  Budapest:  "Kepiro" Verlag, 1996.  ISBN 963 04 6677 5
 
Nancy (Ingvild)


ate: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 02:44:02 EST
From: Varju at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - information access / Hungarian cuisine

ahrenshav at yahoo.com writes:
<< I am wondering now, if Marx [or Marxen] Rumpolt is theauthor's actual
name?  It doesn't sound Hungarian to me. In fact, to me it sounds very
Germanic.  Or could the author have been born in Hungary, but of German parents?   >>

This is very likely, since several groups of Germans have settled in Hungary.
 The first group, called the Saxons, arrived in the 12th and 13th centuries
and live mostly in Transylvania in what is today Romania.  The other group,
the Swabians, arrived in the 18th century, much after the time we are looking
at.

<< And, if he was actually Hungarian, were the Hungarians using then [as they
do now] the family name first and then the given name?  If so, then wouldn't
the author's name then be Rumpolt Marx, as we use names? >>

Yes, Hungarian name order was the same then as it is today with the family
name first and given name second.  This would only hold true however for an
ethnic Hungarian.  Since Rumpolt appears to be a German, his name would be in
the usual order for German names.

Noemi
who has gone through much of her SCA career being called by the wrong part of
her name. . .


From: john j cash <jcash at indiana.edu>
Date: October 14, 2004 2:06:48 PM CDT
To: SCA-Librarians at lists.gallowglass.org
Cc: Subject: [Sca-librarians] [SCA-AS] medieval hungary - history site (fwd)

Very good website on history of medieval Hungary, with lots of pictures:
http://mek.oszk.hu/01900/01949/html/index.html

-- Johannes


Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 10:42:49 -0800 (PST)
From: Marcus Loidolt <mjloidolt at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Fwd: Magyar newsgroup
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Somebody from one of these lists was inquiring about
Hungarian/Magyar stuff, here is a link to a
yahoogroups page that has a lot of Huns and Magyars on
it!

Johann

--- Lisa Hayhurst <ldyerzsie at hotmail.com> wrote:
> From: "Lisa Hayhurst" <ldyerzsie at hotmail.com>
> To: mjloidolt at yahoo.com
> Subject: Magyar newsgroup
> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 11:43:19 +0000
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/magyar-sca/join
> 
> That should get her in.
> 
> Erzsebet


From: Stephanie Cohen <olga0714 at SBCGLOBAL.NET>
Date: August 25, 2010 4:47:30 PM CDT
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] Hey Alban.....
Reply-To: Historical Recreation in the Kingdom of Calontir <CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu>

I've got a copy of _The Cuisine of Hungary_; George Lang, 1971 (1990
reprint, Bonanza Books, NY,NY)  isbn:0-517-16963-0)

Very interesting, with a lot of information on folkways/food ways and their settings in the different regions of Hungary, as well as the historic roots of various ideas.  The pre-15th C info in the History section is pretty sketchy, but there's a lot of 'filling in' of background peppered throughout the book... It's one of those volumes that you actually have to sit down and read thoroughly to get good value from it, rather than just scanning and then using the index(es) to find the good bits. :)  Part Three is recipes.

Olga

-----Original Message-----
From: Historical Recreation in the Kingdom of Calontir
[mailto:CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Ted Eisenstein
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 3:56 PM
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] Hey Alban.....

I am looking for cookbooks and culture books for Hungary or the
.area that would later BE hungary from around 1300 era.  Since you
are the resident expert on books.... I thought I'd ask if you have
something in stock, or if you recommend a website I could peruse?

Check with Amazon or Powell's Books in Portland, Oregon?
One of the other booksellers at Pennsic (there were, hmmm, three?
four? of us a few years back) had a better selection of cookbooks
than I did, but damned if I can remember which one (The Haunted
Bookshop and Poison Pen Press). There might be an SCA Cook's
mail list somewhere, too; or drop a line to the SCA Laurel's list;
or Cariadoc, who has much better cookery sources than I do.

There is one publisher that specializes in history-of-cookery, Prospect
Books; as far as I know they don't have what you're looking for but
they are certainly much better acquainted with the field than I - and
having just checked their website five seconds ago, check out their
links page at https://prospectbooks.co.uk/links

I have one used book available, Kovi's "Transylvanian Cuisine", but it's rather more recent than our period b a century or three.

Sorry I couldn't help more.

Alban


From the fb "SCA Cooks" group:

Ginny Beatty
July 30 at 9:04 AM

Would anyone have a lead on Hungarian/Magyar cookery sources in period? Earlier 10th-12th c. Arpad dynasty vs Ottoman incursion era thanks! Gwyneth - Midrealm.

Phil T Roy 
Marx Rumpoldt worked as a cook in Bohemia and Hungary before going to Germany, and has a number of Hungarian recipes (also Jewish ones).

Ginny Beatty 
I'm looking for something earlier pre-Ottoman. Arpad dynasty.

Esmail Shahin 
Ginny ... see who might be able to check out the Hungarian Heritage Museum in Cleveland, Ohio. They had an interesting library in 2003 when I stumbled across them.

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