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Medieval Hungarian history and culture.

 

NOTE: See also these files: Germany-msg, Europe-msg, East-Eur-msg, Balkans-msg.

 

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NOTICE -

 

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

 

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

 

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

 

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

 

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

 

Thank you,

    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                          Stefan at florilegium.org

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From: greg at bronze.lcs.mit.edu (Greg Rose)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Hungary and Western Europe

Date: 3 Jul 1993 17:35:10 -0400

Organization: MIT LCS guest machine

 

Unto the good gentles of the Rialto does Hossein Ali Qomi send

greetings and prayers for the blessings of Allah.

 

The debate over whether Hungary was a part of medieval Western Europe

has become rather a tendatious exercise.  God knows, there are few

limits to pedantry, but questioning whether Hungary was part of the

West in the middle ages seems to me to test even these paltry limits.

 

The chief problem seems to be that most of the participants know next

to nothing about medieval Hungarian history.

 

A far-too-brief summary of said history:

 

After the Emperor Otto I defeated the Magyars at Lechfeld in 955,

Christianity began to permeate the Magyar leadership, culminating in

the acceptance of Catholic Christianity by the Arpad line under Geza

in 975.  Geza's heir, Stephen, was wed to Gisela, the daughter of

Henry II of Bavaria and the sister of the Emperor Henry II, in 996.

Pope Silvester II vested Stephen with royal dignity and a crown in

1000.  Stephen I of Hungary was canonized in 1073.  After the civil

war ensuing on Stephen's death, Ladislaus II restored order (1077-95)

and closely allied Hungary with the imperial throne and the papacy

(not an easy balancing game).  Laidslaus II was canonized in 1192.

Ladislaus' line continued close relations with the major European

powers.  Bela III (1172-96) married a Capetian princess (part of a

French attempt to woo Hungary from the imperial sphere of influence).

 

Andrew II joined the rest of Europe on crusade in 1217, as a result

of which in 1222 he was presented with a baronial revolt not unlike

that experienced by John in England.  Like John, he was forced to

grant a charter of baronial rights, the "Golden Bull."  Upon Andrew's

death, the papal-supported candidate, Charles Robert of Anjou, a

scion of the Angevin line in Naples, became Charles I, ruling from

1308 to 1342.  The wealth of Hungary became the primary support of

Angevin dominance in southern Italy.  Charles' granddaughter, Mary,

married Sigismund of Luxemburg in 1387.  Sigismund ruled with her

until her death in 1395 and alone until 1437.  He was,

simultaneously, Holy Roman Emperor and King of Bohemia. Sigismund's

son, Albert V of Austria, succeeded him, but died shortly thereafter,

and was succeeded by his son, Ladislaus V.  Ladislaus V was so

occupied with his imperial interests that he appointed a legate and

governor for Hungary, John Hunyadi.  After Ladislaus' death,

Hunyadi's son, Matthias Corvinus, was placed on the throne by a

magnate-led rebellion.  Corvinus prosecuted war against the empire,

seizing and ruling until his death Austria, Carinthia, and Styria.

 

So, we see that:

      1.  Hungary produced two sainted kings (and, thus, had the pull

with the papacy, no mean feat, to obtain papal favor) -- just like

France (England wasn't even close to having that kind of pull -- the

Anglo-Saxon royal saints weren't canonized by the papacy).

      2.  The Hungarian monarchy was established by papal grant -- like

that of the Carolingians (remember Pippin the Short?).

      3.  A king of Hungary ruled the Holy Roman Empire -- no French

king after the Carolingians did, no English king did.

      4.  Hungary was at the center of medieval European political

marriages and pivotal to the alliance system.

      5.  The king of Hungary participated in crusade -- like the Holy

Roman Emperor, the King of France, the King of England, etc.

      6.  Hungary experienced the same sort of baronial unrest as

England in approximately the same time-frame with virtually the same

results.

 

Even a cursory familiarity with the role of Hungary in medieval

European political history makes nonsense of the claim that Hungary

wasn't part of the medieval West.  The fact that most SCAdians are

fascinated with England and France leads them often to forget that

the center of medieval Western Europe was the Rhine, not the English

Channel.  If Hungary is peripheral to medieval Western Europe,

England is just as peripheral and Ireland is like the bloody Ukraine.

 

This isn't the result of some marginal Spenglerian analysis or an ad-

hoc recitation of "contributions," but rather of detailed analysis of

the fabric of political and social relations in the middle ages.

Contrary to David the Fretful's supposition, it is not in grand

theory than this becomes obvious, but in careful attention to the

details.  That's _why_ historians specialize.

 

Greg/Hossein

 

 

From: helm at ymir.ucdavis.EDU (Seriously Tweaked)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Western Civ, scrolls

Date: 4 Jul 1993 01:03:19 -0400

Organization: The Internet

 

David:

No, I'm not at all Sir Wiglaf, though we're friends.  I've known

him since he first joined.  Wiglaf is currently in Berkeley, suffering

through historical language school for his sins (that's what happens

to all those poor sods who get PhD's in medieval history - thank God

I'm just a science nerd  ;-)

 

With regards to my stirring the pot up on this debate: I really have

no emotional attachment to one view or another.  If I were a real

historian, specializing in medieval eastern europe, I might be qualified

to have a real opinion.  I have had courses in eastern european history

and culture, and I've been to most of the counties in eastern europe,

in order to stand around and see with my own eyes the momuments of

its history.

 

I probably suffer from the Viennese viewpoint that the East starts

on the far side of the 2nd district of Vienna, mostly because I lived

in Vienna and learned most of my initial schooling in eastern european

history there.  There really is, by the way, a major cultural split

in south-eastern europe that starts just about at Vienna. Places

to the east of Vienna are remarkable different from places to the west,

though that may be more due to the Cold War than anything else.  Hungary

is vastly different from Austria.  Though the Michalskirche in Budapest

is a fine example of gothic architecture, other medieval buildings

(the few that survive) are very different from those you find west of

Vienna (just as an example).

 

There's an interesting things about medieval roofs, by the way.  You

find medieval roofs on churches and municipal buildings which are

covered with patterned tiles.  Some are simple geometric, and some

make pictures (usually heraldic).  You find these in Transylvania,

Hungary, and eastern Austria.  I did some research with Frau Dr.

Weissgabber, an art historian living in Vienna on these roofs.

The tiled patterned roof farthest west that we found was on the tower

to the water gate in Lindau, on Lake Constance.  On inquiry, it turned

out that the medieval locals imported Hungarian roofers to do the

roof there.  The most eastern example we found was on an orthodox

church in Bulgaria.  I recently heard of a tiled patterned roof in

southern France, which leaves me very curious.  Anyone know anything

about this?

 

But I ramble (don't agree _too_ loudly  ;-)  I contended that Hungary

wasn't like the rest of "western europe".  My contention was based

on the fact that the cultural remains of the middle ages in Hungary

_are_ different.  Building styles, sculpture styles, the way they

painted - they are all different from that which you find in Austria,

Germany, and France (not to mention Prague).  Hungary never saw

that episode of art history called the Renaissance (neither did

most of Austria, by the way).  Hungary was NOT a participant in the

"international style of 1200 AD."  Culturally, I would argue that

Hungary was indeed different from its more "western" neighbors,

Transylvania, Austria, and Bohemia.

 

Anyway, that's a brief synopsis of why I said what I said. Hossein's

brief political history of Hungary was very nice, by the by.  From

that viewpoint, it's hard to argue that Hungary wasn't in the mainstream

of western european history.  He's got good point there.

 

Regardless of how you view east vs west, I for one have actually

enjoyed this thread (and learned a few things too). (After reading

Hossein's post on Hungary, I pulled my copy of the history of Hungary

out of my bookshelf, and have started to reread it.  I certainly

could not have rattled off a brief history of Hungary half as well.)

 

The most "western" place in eastern europe is Transylvania, which if

you think about it, should come as no great surprise.  The towns

_look_ german, the churches are all gothic, the castles would be

equally at home perched along the Rhine.

 

Scrolls:

You should move to the West, Tadhg.  Several scribes here have been

producing document style scrolls for years, complete with dependent

seals.  We even do secretary hands on them, not book hands (and have

developed a few examplars from scratch of hands used on documents,

just because calligraphy books usually don't cover secretary hands).

 

this post has gotten long enough...

I'm cheerfully looking forward to being torn to bits... ;-)

toddles,

Twcs (dilatante of history)

 

 

From: Tim at f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: HELP! Need Magyar/Hungarian Name Book

Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1993 19:12:38

 

Scripsit Ceidyrch ap Llywelyn:

 

CaL> I post this as a request for assistance.  I am a shire pursuivant

CaL> trying to track down a Magyar/Hungarian name book.  Does anyone out

CaL> there know of a good one.  If you do, I would appreciate it if you

CaL> could send me the title, author, and the Library of Congress Call

CaL> Number. It would be EXTREMELY helpful.

 

Bela Kalman, _The World of Names: A Study in Hungarian Onomatology_

(Budapest: Akademiai Kiado, 1978). Sorry, don't have the LC number.

 

    Tadhg, Hanaper

    ocitor!tim.4229 at rwsys.lonestar.org

 

 

From: davesg at netaxs.com (David J. Szent-Gyorgyi)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Information on Hungary anyone...

Date: 24 Jan 1996 11:29:15 GMT

Organization: Philadelphia's Complete Internet Provider

 

Denise Pirko (dpirko at uoguelph.ca) wrote:

: Okay.  I really want to create a hungarian personna, as it is my

: background, but being stuck here in Guelph makes finding info hellish.

: I'm basically thinking of around 1400, but 100 years either way wouldn't

: matter.  Any info or connections that anyone could give me, especially

: having to do with garb and names (though stuff on the socoiety and

: culture are also useful) would be greatly appreciated. Thanks alot

:       -Dee

 

Szervusz!

 

Recently a mailing list for people interested in central and

Eastern Europe in the SCA was announced.  I'll look up the

contact info and forward it to you.  

 

I'm glad to see someone else exploring their heritage this way.

I'm second generation, and working on a late 15th and early 16th

century Hungarian persona from the largest town in Transylvania.

Arpad is born within ten years of the assassination of Vlad the

Impaler, and there is some popular material available on him.

Assuming that Arpad lives to the age of seventy, he lives

through the reign of Hungary's one great Renaissance king,

Matthias Corvinus.  Arpad survives the Turkish conquest of

Hungary and the establishment of Transylvania as a

semi-independent state, and lives through the early years of the

Reformation -- of which Transylvania was a center.  Not bad for

one lifetime, eh? :-)

 

I picked Transylvania because I guessed that the survival of the

area as a semi-independent land would mean that more of the

Transylvanian Period physical sites would remain today than

would be the case for the rest of the country.  My aunt, a

historian of Hungary who specialies in the time of King Zsigmond

(1430-ish), tells me that my guess was wrong.  Overall, the

best-preserved sites are in what was known as Upper Hungary --

basically modern political Slovakia and Ruthenia (the part of

Czechoslovakia swallowed by the U.S.S.R. after the Second World

War).  If you want to base your persona in Upper Hungary, you

might put her in Poszony (modern Bratislava), as the city has a

long and distinguished Hungarian history, or in Kassa (modern

Kosice).  Don't expect the modern Slovakian authorities to help

you, though.  They have a sizeable Hungarian minority, and don't

like them at all. :-(

 

Given the time frame and place you've picked, no matter what you

do, your persona will live in one of the great states of

Europe.  Depending on the time you pick, she will live in a

country recovering from the Black Death and the Mongols; a great

empire at a dynastic height; or a country under increasing

pressure from the Ottoman threat.  Many of the places in which

you might put here will be home numerous ethnic groups.

Transylvania was home to four or five, for example.  

 

I'm still looking for a general history of Hungary, myself.  

 

When I registered my name and arms at Pennsic XX, Lothar, who

hangs out here on the Rialto a lot, referred to _The World of

Names_ or _The Book of Names_, by Kalman, I can't remember which

title is correct off the top of my head.  At that point, he told

me that the Society had relatively little information on

Hungarian heraldry.  I've been to Hungary since, and I have a

museum guide-sized volume on the subject, but it's in Hungarian

and has comparatively few illustrations.  The best resource I've

found is a big mucking book of reproductions of illuminations

and leather bookbindings from the library of Matthias Corvinus.

It's also interesting in that the illuminations are in four or

five styles, and one or two of them are based on aesthetics

unlike those of any other illuminations I've seen. I'm no

expert, but I'll hazard a guess that the oddballs reflect

the influence of Hungarian folk arts -- they remind me of

Hungarian embroidery, painted ceramics and painted wood --

though these are all post-Period, so I can't prove it with the

certainty of a scholar.  

 

For garb: I think you'll end up looking at paintings,

sculptures, illuminations and block prints.  I have a couple of

resources listed among my books, though the list itself isn't

handy.

 

In my spare time, I'm working on an introduction to the

resources I have collected. The introduction will be in two

parts: a list of the books, complete with sketchy notes on each;

and a written introduction including some more detailed

highlights of the resources than the booklist provides. If you

can wait, I'll send you both when they're done -- this will

probably take several months.

 

Failing that, I can email you the booklist as it now stands. It

will give you some idea of what's out there.  I'll be glad to

answer questions about it while I work on the final version.

 

Viszontlatasra!

,  ,

Arpad

---                                                               ,   ,  ,

Dave Szent-Gyorgyi                                         Kolozsvari Arpad

davesg at netaxs.com                Bhakail & Hartshorn-dale, East Kingdom, SCA

       Sable, a trident between two hippocampi respectant Or.

 

 

From: mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Information on Hungary anyone...

Date: 24 Jan 1996 13:59:00 -0500

Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC

 

Greetings from Arval!

 

> Any info or connections that anyone could give me, especially

> having to do with garb and names (though stuff on the socoiety and

> culture are also useful) would be greatly appreciated.

 

I haven't studied Hungary particularly, but I've come across a couple

things that you may find interesting.

 

There is a book, "The World of Names" by Bela Kalman, which is a terrible

general reference on names, but which has a pretty decent section on

Hungarian naming.  I don't know of any better reference in English.  But be

careful: Don't trust anything that isn't explicitly dated.

 

In "Knights of the Crown", by D'Arcy Boulton, there are sections on two

Hungarian chivalric orders.  Each is accompanied by a short summary of

Hungarian history at the time of the order.  I found it interesting, and it

contains quite a few names.  It's also a really nifty book!

 

      Arval.

 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

 

   Author:        Kaalmaan, Baela, 1913-

   Uniform Title: Nevek vilaaga. English

   Title:         The world of names : a study in Hungarian onomatology

                / by Baela Kaalmaan.

   Published:     Budapest : Akadaemiai Kiadao, 1978.

   Description:   198 p. : ill. ; 25 cm.

   LC Call No.:   PH2576 .K313 1978

   Dewey No.:     494/.511/2

   ISBN:          9630513994

   Notes:         Translation of the 3d ed. of A nevek vilaaga.

            Includes index.

            Bibliography: p. 169-[173]

   Subjects:      Hungarian language -- Etymology -- Names.

            Names, Geographical -- Hungary.

            Names, Personal -- Hungary.

   Control No.:   79300962 //r842

 

   Author:        Boulton, D'Arcy Jonathan Dacre, 1946-

   Title:         The knights of the crown : the monarchical orders of

                knighthood in later medieval Europe, 1325-1520 /

                D'Arcy Jonathan Dacre Boulton.

   Published:     New York : St. Martin's Press, 1987.

   Description:   xxv, 540 p. : ill. ; 24 cm.

   LC Call No.:   CR4513 .B68 1987

   Dewey No.:     929.7/1/094 19

   ISBN:          0312458428 : $25.00 (est.)

   Notes:         Includes bibliographical references.

   Subjects:      Orders of knighthood and chivalry -- Europe --

                History.

            Knights and knighthood -- Europe -- History.

            Europe -- Kings and rulers.

   Control No.:   86001820 //r95

 

 

From: ladyallyn at aol.com (Lady Allyn)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Hungarian "wanderer"

Date: 13 Sep 1996 00:46:30 -0400

Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)

 

[A gentle had asked about a Hungarian name for "the wanderer" (editor)]

 

Gentle Friend,

 

I had the opportunity to ask a native Hungarian gentleman what the

historic reference for "wanderer" or "Pilgrim" would have been. To his

knowledge, there is/was no specific term for a religious pilgrim, and the

"travellers" were/are "gypsies" as nearest translated, not to be confused

with the "ethnic Gypsy".  In Hungarian the term is ciga'na for an

individual, ciga'nyok for a group.  The pronounciation is: see-guy-nuyh /

see-guy-nuyh-ahk, emphasis guy, very short nuyh. (boy, I wish I knew how

to do phoetic on the computer without benefit of italics and accents)

These are the folk who travelled from town to town, craftsmen of various

kinds, often musicians and artists.  His recollection of (our period)

history lessons is that they were virtually the only people who travelled

around the region other than military/mercenary folk.  He also said that

they took what they learned from town to town (crafts/skills, etc) and

either performed them - for pay - or taught others - also for pay. The

penalty for stealing was hanging.  He could not recall and specific

library references offhand, but did suggest the library in Budapest has a

significant historical collection and a fair amount of it may be

accessable online.

 

Peace and Strength,

Lady Allyn

 

 

From: Andrea Luxenburg <Edl at mail.albany.net>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: 14th - 15th century Hungarian Houpelands...

Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 18:29:04 -0800

Organization: AlbanyNet - E-mail info at albany.net

 

L. S. Peck wrote:

>

> jlulow at server1.natcol-rcy.EDU wrote:

> >

> > If I was living in Hungary around this time (1450's to 1550's) what

> > would I be wearing???

>

> You would be wearing simular garb to any one else living in slavic

> countries. By looking at a map I find Hungry to be located in between

> Poland and Romania.

>

> I have garbed a man in Polish costume of simular time period. The outfit

> was simple in cut, made of warm fabrics such as wool and fur and very

> adorned with embroidery and the like. These are very rich and stately

> costumes.

>

> Start with Russian as there is more information on that country's

> costumes than most others.

>

> Good luck

> Mistress Rhianwen

 

While it may be true that dress in Hungary would have been similar to

that in surrounding countries - I know nothing to the contrary - Hungary

is not a Slavic country; Hungarian is not even an Indo-European language,

much less Slavic.  It is distantly related to Finnish, Estonian and

Turkish, all members of the Ural-Altaic group of lnaguages, most of which

are native to north and central Asia.

 

Gwen Goosefoot, nitpicker extraordinaire

 

 

From: davesg at netaxs.com (David J. Szent-Gyorgyi)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: 14th - 15th century Hungarian Houpelands...

Date: 22 Nov 1996 13:03:03 GMT

Organization: Net Access - Philadelphia's Original ISP

 

I find myself amending the words of someone who certainly knows

more about garb than I do. I hope, Mistress, that you understand

that I claim no expertise, and am working from general

knowledge.  I wish to make clarify a few things, in the hope

that the other Gentles on this Bridge won't gain mistaken

impressions.

 

In <32920776.4ED at primenet.com>,

L. S. Peck <rhianwen at primenet.com> wrote:

 

> jlulow at server1.natcol-rcy.EDU wrote:

> >

> > If I was living in Hungary around this time (1450's to 1550's) what

> > would I be wearing???

>

> You would be wearing simular garb to any one else living in slavic

> countries. By looking at a map I find Hungry to be located in between

> Poland and Romania.

 

Though Hungarians count numerous Slavic peoples among their

neighbors, they are not Slavs, and you'll find Hungarian

clothing and motifs distinct from those of their Slavic

neighbors.  

 

> I have garbed a man in Polish costume of simular time period. The outfit

> was simple in cut, made of warm fabrics such as wool and fur and very

> adorned with embroidery and the like. These are very rich and stately

> costumes.

 

Simple in cut?  Depends on the persona's class, location, and

time.  Peasant clothing, might be simple in cut, but Renaissance

Italian influence was pronounced on the late-Period Hungarian

Court.

 

I'll agree on the use of warm fabric, and the use of fur as

trim, but that doesn't give an idea of the style.  As to

richness and stateliness, I'm looking for information on that.

I've been told that the Period version of the szur, the

Hungarian cowboy's cloak, lacked the elaborate embroidery of

20th Century examples.

 

Post-period Hungarian embroidery varies drastically from region

to region, so the question is, how far back does such variation

go.

 

> Start with Russian as there is more information on that country's

> costumes than most others.

 

Please do not start with Russian garb; while the Hungarians

passed through part of modern-day Russia on their way west, they

did not simply adopt Russian traditions.  For one thing, this

passage took place in the late ninth century, before there was

a Russia.  

 

Now that I've said all of that, I'd like to direct your

attention to the home page of the Slavic Interest Group. I've

put a copy of my partially-annotated list of resources on Things

Hungarian among their resources, because they're also working on

Central and Eastern Europe.  If you want to learn about the

differences between Things Hungarian and Things Slavic, check

there.  

 

Their home page can be reached at

http://vms.www.uwplatt.edu/~goldschmidt/slavic.html

 

Anyone with questions or comments (or further resources!)

may feel free to e-mail me.

,  ,

Arpad,

15th/16th/20th Century Magyar :-)

---                                                               ,   ,  ,

Dave Szent-Gyorgyi                                         Kolozsvari Arpad

davesg at netaxs.com                Bhakail & Hartshorn-dale, East Kingdom, SCA

 

 

From: Liz Beecher <beecheer at hpohp4.wgw.bt.co.uk>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: 14th - 15th century Hungarian Houpelands...?

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:16:36 -0800

Organization: British Telecommunications plc

 

It is reputed that jlulow at server1.natcol-rcy.EDU wrote:

> If I was living in Hungary around this time (1450's to 1550's) what

> would I be wearing???

 

Erm.... you could have a look at a wonderful book on-line by following the

link below - they definately cover the slavic countries

 

http://www.siue.edu/COSTUMES/COSTUME10_INDEX.HTML

 

If I remember rightly I bookmarked it at 1600 so you will need go

backwards to find your period.

 

Liz Beecher

--

Editor - The Culverin - The Journal of The Siege Group

 

Making the English Civil War Live

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/The_Siege_Group

 

 

From: eduardvz at aol.com (EduardVZ)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Hungarian Persona

Date: 4 Apr 1997 09:00:11 GMT

 

There is a book put out by Osprey in their Man-at-Arms Series called

Hungary and the fall of Eastern Europe 1000-1568. It has some very

interesting historical information and some beautiful illustrations of

Garb and armour.

 

Good luck and a nice choice if I might add.

 

Eduard II, Rex, Galandor

Knight Bannerette, Knight Minister

http://members.aol.com/eduardvz

 

 

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:33:52 -0600

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: RE: SC - OT, places

 

> I keep running into mention of the Kumans and the Seklers.  Does anyone

> have a clue as to who these people are?

>

> Bogdan din Brasov

 

Sekler is a Germanicized form of the Hungarian, Szekely. The Szekely are

recognized (by the Magyar) as a branch of the Magyar, sharing a similar

language and customs.  Szekelyfold was one of the three administrative areas

of Transylvania, the others being Szaszfold (Saxon) and the Seven Counties

(being Wallachian and Szekely).

 

Present day Szekely are a Rumanian ethnic minority numbering about 400,000.

 

Bear

 

 

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 21:09:33 -0600 (CST)

From: jeffrey stewart heilveil <heilveil at students.uiuc.edu>

Subject: RE: SC - OT, places

 

Careful with that seven counties bit.  Siebenbuergischen is the German for

Transylvania itself, it does not refer to anywhere else.

 

On Mon, 23 Mar 1998, Decker, Terry D. wrote:

> Sekler is a Germanicized form of the Hungarian, Szekely.  The Szekely are

> recognized (by the Magyar) as a branch of the Magyar, sharing a similar

> language and customs.  Szekelyfold was one of the three administrative areas

> of Transylvania, the others being Szaszfold (Saxon) and the Seven Counties

> (being Wallachian and Szekely).

>

> Present day Szekely are a Rumanian ethnic minority numbering about 400,000.

>

> Bear

 

 

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 02:10:00 EST

From: Varju <Varju at aol.com>

Subject: Re: SC - OT, places

 

<< The Szekely are  recognized (by the Magyar) as a branch of the Magyar,

sharing a similar  language and customs.  Szekelyfold was one of the three

administrative areas of Transylvania, the others being Szaszfold (Saxon) and

the Seven Counties (being Wallachian and Szekely). >>

 

Bits of further information on this.  Whether the Szekely are actually related

to the Magyar is a matter of conjecture.  They settled in the region shortly

after the arrival of the Magyars in 895. I'm not sure what is meant by three

administrative areas of Transylvania, but I do know that the three recognized

ethnic groups of Transylvania were the Saxon (German), Magyar(Hungarian) and

Szekely in the Unio trium nation (Union of the three nations) in 1437.

 

Noemi

 

 

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 09:07:54 -0600

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>

Subject: RE: SC - OT, places

 

That is the German view of Transylvania.  What is the Hungarian view of

Transylvania?

 

I think that the administrative districts may have been created as part of a

Magyar incursion into Rumanian and German territory.  That would have meant

that land claimed by the Hungarians as part of Transylvania would be seen as

totally different territory by the Germans.

 

I tend to take most land claims with a grain of salt unless I have some idea

of the actual history of the area.  My Central European history is very

sketchy, so I don't think I have a good enough grasp of the historical

perspective to say what view is correct.  BTW, German territorial views are

very suspect, until proven correct, in that scholarly propaganda was created

to support political claims to "traditional" German territory during this

century.

 

Bear

 

 

From: davesg at netaxs.com (David J. Szent-Gyorgyi)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Bohemian persona

Date: 17 Apr 1998 05:53:39 GMT

 

On 15 Apr 1998 06:11:05 GMT, Katherine Norris <knorris at richmond.edu> wrote:

>I'm looking into a Bohemian persona, and I was wondering if

>there was anyone out here who had one or could point me towards

>some information.   The time span I'm currently looking at is

>1350's to 1400ish, although I'm open to other suggestions.  Any

>information on culture, names, history, clothing would be

>greatly appreciated.

>

>Kai

 

Two suggestions:

 

The specific one.  Go through Wagner, Eduard. _Medieval Costume,

Armour, and Weapons (1350-1450)._ London: Paul Hamlyn, 1962.  

 

The title is misleading.  This book was produced in

Czechoslovakia, and focuses on Hussite Bohemia--though it

includes material on gear and garb of other areas that were of

importance at the time.  It begins with many pages of essays,

and finishes with many pages of illustrations drawn from primary

and Period secondary sources.  It's coffee-table sized, and

exists in translations into German and English as well as the

original.  

 

I blundered into it while looking up something quite unrelated,

and hunted down a copy because it included more illustrations of

Hungarian garb and gear than I'd seen collected anywhere else.

The drawings of costume are not made for reenactors and

recreationists, so they don't necessarily serve as patterns--but

they do give a good visual sense of the piece, and citations are

made for almost every one (the one source for the Hungarian

stuff is given by author's name only, alas--I'm hunting for it).

 

Trust after you verify, as with any source.  My garb-historian

friends tell me that the gorgeous illustration of a Hungarian

archer, which is made after a Duerer etching, Just Isn't Typical

Hungarian.  Nonetheless, I trust Duerer's eye and hand, and want

a look at the original.  Anyone know where I can find a full

reproduction of his "Nurnberger Feldschlange?"

 

I don't know whether this book is available via Inter-Library

Loan.  Swarthmore College's library has a copy.

 

The general suggestion: Join the Slavic Interest Group, and

start with their bibliography. Their home page is at URL

http://vms.www.uwplatt.edu/~goldschmidt/slavic.html . They're

happy to serve as a clearing-place for information on Central

and Eastern Europe, Slav or not.

,  ,

Arpad

---                                                      ,   ,  ,

Dave Szent-Gyorgyi                               Kolozsvari Arpad

davesg at netaxs.com                Hartshorn-dale, East Kingdom, SCA

"We HAVE to build a 'Net                  Sable, a trident between

that handles diacriticals!"          two hippocampi respectant Or.

 

 

From: palotay at aol.com (Palotay)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Hungarian help

Date: 4 Jul 1998 19:46:06 GMT

 

Tal logan wrote

>The only Hungarians that I know of is Elizabeth Bathory and Drac.

 

(this looks very much like a troll, but I'll bite anyway)

Elizabeth Bathory was, indeed, Hungarian.  Whether the things they accuse her

of doing in her later years (torturing servants, etc.) are true, I wouldn't

know, but every family, even the Bathory one, is allowed a few insane members,

I think.

As for Dracula:  modern research puts Vlad II.'s (Dracula's) castle in Romania

proper (not Transylvania, which was only given to Romania after WWI.  Unfairly,

I might add, but that would be getting way off topic...)   Vampires are a

Victorian English invention, and they are not found in Hungarian mythology.  I

don't know whether they are found in Romanian legends and stories, but the fact

remains, Dracula (if he existed) was not Hungarian.

As for there being no other Hungarians you know of, I'm sorry for your

ignorance.  In the period the original question mentioned (late 1400's),

Hungary was experiencing it's renaissance (only a century before the English

Renaissance, I might add), Matthias Corvinus was the king, Italian princess

Beatrix was his queen, and the Turks were still being held at bay by the Black

Army.  Matthias assembled the greatest library of his time, rebuilt the

capital, and according to legend, was a great champion of justice for the

common people.  He is widely held to be the greatest ruler Hungary ever had.

I suppose I could list a few other Hungarians of note (any other member of the

Bathory family comes to mind), but this much should be enough to start you off

in a search for more and better information.

 

Sorry for the long rant, folks...just thought I would try to educate Mr. Logan

a bit.

 

Martha

(why yes, I _am_ Hungarian--why do you ask? :)

 

 

From: jlnash55 at aol.com (JLNash55)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Hungarian help

Date: 4 Jul 1998 23:49:19 GMT

 

> Dracula (if he existed) was not Hungarian.

 

Vlad the Impaler (Dracula) did in fact live, had close ties to transylvania and

was Prince of Wallachia...three seperate times.  He was also allied with

Hungary against the Turks.  Just had to mention it.  

 

>Matthias assembled the greatest library of his time, rebuilt the

>capital, and according to legend, was a great champion of justice for the

>common people.  He is widely held to be the greatest ruler Hungary ever had.

 

As for the good king Matthias Corvinus, why do you think I chose this period

for my persona?  :)

 

It's great to hear from other Hungarians!

Nynaatchka

 

 

From: SNSpies at aol.com

Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 14:46:42 EST

To: harleypig at Juno.com, highland-foorde at cybergoyle.ml.org,

        atlantia at atlantia.sca.org

 

<< I'm new to the S.C.A. and looking for more info.

  on 11th and 12th century Hungarian/Polish (clothing ,food ,armor.....). >>

 

Siklodi, Csilla, ed.  "Between East and West:  Everyday Life in the Hungarian

Conquest Period ("Uber die Grenze Zwischen Ost und West:  Ungarn im 9-11.

Jahrhundert").  Budapest:  "Kepiro" Verlag, 1996.  ISBN 963 04 6677 5

Nancy (Ingvild)

 

 

ate: Wed, 29 Dec 1999 02:44:02 EST

From: Varju at aol.com

Subject: Re: SC - information access / Hungarian cuisine

 

ahrenshav at yahoo.com writes:

<< I am wondering now, if Marx [or Marxen] Rumpolt is theauthor's actual

name?  It doesn't sound Hungarian to me. In fact, to me it sounds very

Germanic.  Or could the author have been born in Hungary, but of German parents?   >>

 

This is very likely, since several groups of Germans have settled in Hungary.

The first group, called the Saxons, arrived in the 12th and 13th centuries

and live mostly in Transylvania in what is today Romania. The other group,

the Swabians, arrived in the 18th century, much after the time we are looking

at.

 

<< And, if he was actually Hungarian, were the Hungarians using then [as they

do now] the family name first and then the given name?  If so, then wouldn't

the author's name then be Rumpolt Marx, as we use names? >>

 

Yes, Hungarian name order was the same then as it is today with the family

name first and given name second.  This would only hold true however for an

ethnic Hungarian.  Since Rumpolt appears to be a German, his name would be in

the usual order for German names.

 

Noemi

who has gone through much of her SCA career being called by the wrong part of

her name. . .

 

 

From: john j cash <jcash at indiana.edu>

Date: October 14, 2004 2:06:48 PM CDT

To: SCA-Librarians at lists.gallowglass.org

Cc: Subject: [Sca-librarians] [SCA-AS] medieval hungary - history site (fwd)

 

Very good website on history of medieval Hungary, with lots of pictures:

http://mek.oszk.hu/01900/01949/html/index.html

 

-- Johannes

 

 

Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 10:42:49 -0800 (PST)

From: Marcus Loidolt <mjloidolt at yahoo.com>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Fwd: Magyar newsgroup

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

 

Somebody from one of these lists was inquiring about

Hungarian/Magyar stuff, here is a link to a

yahoogroups page that has a lot of Huns and Magyars on

it!

 

Johann

 

--- Lisa Hayhurst <ldyerzsie at hotmail.com> wrote:

> From: "Lisa Hayhurst" <ldyerzsie at hotmail.com>

> To: mjloidolt at yahoo.com

> Subject: Magyar newsgroup

> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 11:43:19 +0000

>

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/magyar-sca/join

>

> That should get her in.

>

> Erzsebet

 

<the end>



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