Gypsies-msg - 7/29/15

Gypsy culture. Also called Rom or Romani.

NOTE: See also these files: Gypsies-art, Gypsies-lnks, Gypsy-tmeline-art, East-Eur-msg, Hungary-msg, Europe-msg, jewelry-msg, cl-EastEur-msg, cl-Spain-msg, carts-msg.

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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: meg at tinhat.stonemarche.org (meg)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: gypsies
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 94 01:16:48 EST
Organization: Stonemarche Network Co-op

Greetings from Megan, who happens to have more than a passing interest in 
Gypsy history.  Here follows a much abreviated overview:

The Gypsies do NOT come from Egypt, they come from India. IN
In the Life of George Mtharsmindel of Mount Athos, written in the 
mid-11th century, there is mention of Asincan people who were described 
as well known magicians and rogues. In 1322, Simon Simeonis describes 
similar people living in Crete.  In around 1340, a priest of Cologne 
describes a people he refers to as Mandapolos, who had a unique language. 
 In  1350 Ludolphus of Sudheim also mentions them.  Note that the name 
Mandapolos is possibly a corruption of the Greek word Mantipolos, mening 
fortune teller.  In 1386, the feudum Acinganorum are said to live on 
Corfu.  This word is the prototype of the German Zigeuner, the Italian 
Zingaro, and the French Tsigane, Polish Cygan. In 1384, forty families 
were documented as living at the foot of the Carpathians who were called 
Acigani vel Cygani.  In 1416, they were noted in Bohemia. In 1416, a 
chronicler described a man called Emaus from Egypt, who appeared at 
Kronstadt in Transylvania together with 220 followers.  On August 30, 
1417, the Gypsies reacahed Zurich, Magdeburg and Lubeck, and in 1418 
"poor people from Little Egypt" came to Strasbourg and Frankfurt. On 
Oct.1, 1419 there were seen at Sisteron in Provence, on November 1 at 
Augsburg, in 1420 "Master Andreas, the Prince of Little Egypt" came to 
Deventer in Holland with his followers and 40 horses.  "Andrea, Duke of 
Egypt" rested on July 18 1422 at Bologna before going on via Forli to 
Rome for an audience with the Pope.  In 1422 a large horde with 50 horses 
led by one Michael arrives at Basle, before going on to Italy, Alsace and 
France.(all this is loosely written from The Gypsies in Poland, by Jerzy 
Ficowski, Interpress Publishers.)

The Gypsy wagons are a very recent development, dating from the late 18th 
early 19th century. Befoe that, they travelled by foot and horseback, 
setting up tents by night.

Modern Gypsies hold an annual convention/conference in France each 
summer. A friend of mine from Belur, Tamil Nadu, India, is a delegate to 
this convention.  He has done extensive research into the linguistic 
trends of their migrations. The Gypsy Language was first noted as being 
similar to Indian languages in 1763, but it wasn't until 1927 that 
R>L>Turner linked the  language with the Dardic and Kafir tribes.

There is a good bit of information extant about Gypsies before 1650. Not 
too much is translated ito English, unfortunately, but there are some 
good ppictures. 

It would be refreshing and interesting to see some authentic Gypsies in 
the SCA. Their society and culture is complex and fascinating, strictly 
regimented and circumscribed.

Megan

PS  here's Gypsy riddle...The more you cut off it, the bigger it gets.

Answer: a hole.
== 
In 1994: Linda Anfuso
In the Current Middle Ages: Megan ni Laine de Belle Rive  
In the SCA, Inc: sustaining member # 33644

                                YYY     YYY
meg at tinhat.stonemarche.org      |  YYYYY  |
                                |____n____| 


From: JLEASE at nara.GOV (Jennifer Lease)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: gypsy carts
Date: 7 Nov 1994 09:18:17 -0500

Greetings to the bridge! 
 
Gwenfrei ferch Cadfael of Caernarfon wrote: 
>wanting to know about 
>wooden enclosed cart/carriage with a living and sleeping space as used by 
>gypsies 
 
According to the limited research I have done and the extensive research 
my tribe leader has done, wooden enclosed carts did not come into use 
until well into the 17th or 18th centuries. However, they did use carts to 
carry all their possessions.  Only they were more akin to conestoga 
wagons, ie. flat bed wagons with tents on them.  I will try to get a hold 
of my tribe leader and see if she can come up with some documentation for 
you. 
 
As for the term gypsy, it too is either late period or OOP totally.  
Again, based on my limited research, the term comes from the period term 
of "Little Egyptian".  When the gypsies enterd Western Europe from the 
baltic and eastern european countries, with their outlandish dress, 
customs and language, W.E. had no idea who or what hit them.  The gypsies 
themselves claimed to be from somewhere called Little Egypt.  There are 
documented cases of tribes of Little Egyptians claiming sanctuary because 
they were serving penance as punishment for religious "crimes" in their 
homeland.  Eventually, the governments of the time began legislating 
against the tribes.  When they entered the British Isles in the 1400's 
laws against vagrancy etc. were passed to keep them out of towns.  The 
term "Little Egyptian" gradually changed to the term gypsy.  The other 
period term I ran across was "Zeiguner" or something like that, (my german 
is lousy!:-) ) Most modern gypsies perfer the term "Rhom" or "Rhomany" and 
in Scotland they are referred to "the Traveling People". 
 
I will do my best to locate the citation of the book(s) that I read for 
this information.  It is by no means complete and as the study of gypsies 
is young, there are a lot of differing viewpoints and information.  I hope 
this helps! 
 
Anna MacKenzie 
Barony of the Brights Hills 
K. of Atlantia 
 
...sometime member of the Gypsy Tribe of the Winged Wolf... 
jlease at nara.gov 


From: JLEASE at nara.GOV (Jennifer Lease)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: gypsy carts and references
Date: 10 Nov 1994 09:22:50 -0500
Organization: The Internet

Greetings unto the bridge! 
 
As promised, these are the references that I found at the University of 
MD, Baltimore County.  Some I have read, most I have not. (Gee, if I only 
had the time to read all that was on my reading list.....) 
 
The Gypsies of Eastern Europe, edited by David Crowe and John Kolstic 
w/intro by Ian Hancock  Copyright  1991 
 
The Gypsies by Angus Fraser published in Cambridge MA  1992 
 
Gypsies: An Illustrated History  1986 by Jean-Pierre Liedeois 1986 
 
The Traveler-gypsies by Judith Okely  1983 
 
and for those with a musical bent.... 
 
Travellers' Songs from England and Scotland, published in 1977 
by Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger 
 
There are many others.  The hard part is finding sources about period 
gypsies, several of these books may have more on modern gypsies than 
period, but I don't remember which ones. I don't remember who it was who 
asked for this information, but if you're interested our tribe has a 
newsletter for all interested in gypsies and we are also trying to compile 
a list of sources. Send me an email and I'll get you my tribe 
leaders'/chroniclers' address. 
 
Hope this helps! 
 
Anna MacKenzie 
Tribe of the Winged Wolf 
Barony of the Bright Hills 
K. of Atlantia 
jlease at nara.gov 
 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: bq676 at torfree.net (Kristine E. Maitland)
Subject: Re: Any 'gypsies' out there?
Organization: Toronto Free-Net
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 1995 05:39:59 GMT

Vanyev Btz (vanyevbtz at aol.com) wrote:
: Yes, my romani sister!  I am Vanyev Betzina of Kumapania Kaldaresh,
: The Gypsy King (although if being king, is only king of wooden boxes, so
: is not mattering much).  

: If you are having any questions, please E-Mail me in return, and I would
: be glad to share any answers I might have.

: I am mundanly a true-blood Rom (Gypsy) as well, so anything you learn
: elsewhere would be a great blessing to me, as I am exploring my heritage.

Dearest women of the Rom.  Upon learning of your need for more knowledge, 
i thought that the following article may be of assistance:

Bill M. Donovan. "Changing Perceptions of Social Deviance: Gypsies in 
	Early Modern Portugal and Brazil" in _Journal of Social history_, 
	volume 26, number 1 (Fall 1992)
[the article is slightly post-period, however it does discuss gypsies and 
the law beginnin in the late 15th, early 16th century]

I hope that it proves helpful.

In service to the Principality of Ealdormere (and new friends!)
Ines Carmen Maria de Freitas
[Kristine Maitland -- bq676 at freenet.toronto.on.ca]


From: "'Riff' Beth Marie Mc Curdy" <ook at u.washington.edu>
Warning and a free tip: a lot of SCA-er's have a problem with gypsies 
because "we're all supposed to be noble."  However, gypsies -were- 
presumed noble whenever they could get away with it.
	The first gypsies claimed to be the Christian nobility of Egypt, 
who had abandoned their possessions in order to retain their faith when 
the Muslims gained power.  They were believed for a good period.
	Linguistic evidence strongly demonstrates that they actually 
originated in India, and moved west, migrating through the middle east 
into Europe.  There is a good possibility that they originated belly 
dancing.
	Reliable period info on gypsies is sadly lacking- the only people 
writing about them were the ones who wanted rid of them at all cost.  I 
think it was in the fifteenth century that the pogroms against them 
really got rolling...
	Because gypsies have remained very secluded and secretive, 
cultural "tainting" has been comparatively low, and modern practices may 
well reflect medieval practices.
						Good luck and have fun.
							Tri Be Lith


From: bj at alpha1.csd.uwm.edu (Barbara Jean Kuehl)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Newbie seeking information on gypsy persona
Date: 1 Oct 1995 16:05:05 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee

Melaena Grierson (ac359 at freenet.carleton.ca) writes):
> 	I'm a newcomer to the SCA and am interested in adopting a gypsy
> persona as I have Romanian ancestors.

Me, too.  About a month ago, I posted a question very much like yours,
and I made contact with about 4 or 5 people with gypsy personas,
including our Gypsy King Vanyev Betzenia.

> Can anyone give me some ideas on
> what books or sources might be helpful to research my persona?

Everyone who wrote to me advised me to search out the books at whatever
libraries are in my area.  I'm in the process of doing that now, but
I've found that information about gypsies is very very sketchy and
mostly written about gypsies in the last century or so.  What
historical information I've been able to find is based primarily
on journal entries, literary references, liquistic studies and
other documented accounts of 'Egyptians', 'Bohemians', 'Roms'
or simply 'wandering Indian tribes' reported in particular areas.

It appears that the peoples we call Gypsies originally came from
India, probably in the northwestern part.  Sometime before the 10th
century, they migrated east to Persia.  Reports of Gypsies in 
places such as Crete, Corfu, Serbia, Bohemia and Walachia began to
appear in the 1300's.  In the 1400's, they were reported in Moldavia,
Hungary and Transylvania as well as in Germany and France.  They
lived in tents (gypsy wagons are a recent introduction) and were
often described as dark-skinned magicians, entertainers, smiths,
horsebreakers and other skilled tradeworkers.  

In the 1500's, gypsies begin showing up in Northern Europe --
Britain, Scotland, Denmark, Norway, etc. -- although they may
have been there already (it's just that their presence becomes
documented at this time).  During the 1500's to the 1700's in
England, repressive laws were passed against Gypsies, claiming
they were thieves, bewitchers and basic undesirables.  In fact,
when I told some Renaissance fairegoer friends of mine that I
was researching a gypsy persona, they told me that, had I shown
up at a faire in England during Elizabethan times, I would have
been driven off!

> I have absolutely zero information or background on the gypsy
cukture...

Well, now you have some.  Good luck in your research.

				BJ


From: bj at alpha1.csd.uwm.edu (Barbara Jean Kuehl)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Newbie seeking information on gypsy persona
Date: 3 Oct 1995 14:59:47 GMT
Organization: Information & Media Technologies, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee

When Malaena Grierson (ac359 at FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:
	I'm a newcomer to the SCA and am interested in adopting a gypsy
persona as I have Romanian ancestors.  Can anyone give me some ideas on
what books or sources might be helpful to research my persona?

Carolyn Boselli (IVANOR at delphi.com) responded:
Gypsies appeared in Europe post 1600, so are not Medieval/Renaissance.

and AElfled (sandradodd at aol.com) added:
American Heritage says they were in Europe in the 14th / 15th century.
OED says they got to England in the early 1600's.   England's the far end
of Europe, and I doubt they crossed all the way from India to England in
just a few years.

Perhaps I can shed some light on the appearance of gypsies in Europe.
In the book I am currently reading about gypsies ("Les Tziganes" by
Jean-Paul Clebert, 1961), the author uses private journal entries,
legal documents and other existing historical archives, to outline
the westward movement of the 'little Egyptians' (later known as 'gypsies')
from their presumed homeland in northwestern India.

According to Clebert, they advanced from India into Persia sometime
before the 10th Century.  In the 1300's they were officially reported
in Crete (1322), Corfu (1346), Serbia (1348) and the Peloponnese (1378).
In the 1400's, they were officially reported in  Basle (1414), Moldavia,
Hungary and Transylvania (1417), Saxony and Augsburg (1418), France 
(1419), Bologna and Rome (1422), Paris (1427), Barcelona (1447),
Wales (1430 or 1440) and Scotland (1447 or 1505) -- the exact year
of their appearances in Wales and Scotland were being contested.

In the 1500's, gypsies were reported officially in Russia (1500),
Poland (1509), England (1514), Sweden (1515) and Norway (1540).
I use the word 'officially' in this context because Clebert points
out:

	"These dates mark the 'official' appearance of Gypsies;
	a fact which must be emphasized.  It does not mean that
	in reality the Gypsies had not arrived in Europe before
	the authorities thought of mentioning them for the first
	time, before the occurrence of some local event or other
	with which their name was associated."

In fact, other authors claim that Gypsies probably made their
way in England in the 1430's, but valid documentation is lacking
in these claims. 

By the way, the claim that Gypsies originated in India is
based on linguistic analysis of their language.  Although the
Gypsies call themselves 'Rom' and their language is known as
'Romani', the Romani language has nothing in common with the
language known as Romanian (which is a Romance language, derived
from Latin and kin to French, Spanish, Italian, etc.).  Romani
been shown to be closely related to groups of languages and
dialects (such as Hindi, Gujarati, Marathi and Cashmiri) still
spoken in India and of the same origin as Sanskrit.

Hope this helps.
				BJ


From: sandradodd at aol.com (SandraDodd)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Gypsies
Date: 4 Oct 1995 09:49:39 -0400

<<      In France it was thought that these same people came from
   Bohemia and thus they were called 'Bohemes'.... [thus began the
   English word "bohemian"]

Barbara Carter>>

THANKS!  This is the coolest thread for a long time--


From: IVANOR at delphi.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Gypsies
Date: 5 Oct 1995 01:00:32 GMT

Quoting sandradodd from a message in rec.org.sca
   >That's even better!    I didn't know whether they had the word come with
   >the people from France or somewhere else or not.  What are Gypsies
   >called in other languages?  Spanish is Gitano, I think.

In German, Zigeuner.  In South Eastern Europe, variations on Tsiganske.  In
Ireland, Tinkers.  Beyond that ????

Carolyn Boselli, Host of Custom Forum 35, SCAdians on Delphi


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: bq676 at torfree.net (Kristine E. Maitland)
Subject: Re: Gypsies
Organization: Toronto Free-Net
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 03:31:19 GMT

SandraDodd (sandradodd at aol.com) wrote:
:      I think there is a problem in using the OED as a reference here.  
:      There are Elizabethan laws against dressing or acting "as an 
:      Egyptian," which from the descriptions seem to be what we would call 
:      'gypsies.'  I suspect that the word "gypsie" came into use as an 
:      abreviation of "Egyptian" somewhat later than the actual arrival of 
:      the Rom in England.>>

: That's even better!    I didn't know whether they had the word come with
: the people from France or somewhere else or not.  What are Gypsies called
: in other languages?  Spanish is Gitano, I think.

: AElflaed

Yes, AEflaed "gitano" is the Spanish word.  The Portuguese called them 
"cigano".  

For the record: "Anti-gypsy legislation in Britain goes back to Henry 
VIII. The 1530 'Egyptians Act' Banned immigration by all 'Egipcions' and 
ordered all those in England to leave the country.  Subsequent acts in 
the reigns of mary Tudor and Elizabeth I went so far as to provide 
capital punishment for gypsy immigrants found in the country more than 
one month."  (see Bill M. Donovan's "Chancing perceptions of social 
deviance: gypsies in early modern Portugal and Brazil" in _Journal of 
Social History_ v 26 #1 (Fall 1992)

putting up gypsies in the barn of my inn Rosa Negra
(who do you think brought chickens for my coup?)
Ines Carmen Maria de Freitas


From: lila at lynx.CO.NZ (Lila Richards)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Gypsies
Date: 6 Oct 1995 00:47:50 -0400
Organization: The Internet

AElflaed said:
>What are Gypsies called in other languages?  Spanish is Gitano, I think.

In French it's Tsiganes.  According to a book I have, 'The Gypsies', by
Jean-Paul Clebert (pub. Penguin, my edition 1970), the Gitanos are actually
one of the the three main Groups of Gypsies (the others are the Kalderash
and the Manuchs, called Manouches in France), called Gitans in France.

The dates Clebert gives for the appearance of Gypsies in Europe are:

855?            Byzantium                
1260 (or 1399?) Bohemia                 
1322?           Crete
1346            Corfu
1348            Serbia
1378            The Pelopennese, Zagreb
1414            Basle
1417            Transylvania, Moldavia, The Elbe
1418            Saxony, Augsburg
1419            France, Sisteron
1420?           Denmark
1422            Bologna, Rome
1427            Paris
1430 (or 1440?) Wales
1447            Barcelona
1492 (or 1505)  Scotland
1500            Russia
1509            Poland
1515            Sweden

He notes that these dates mark the *'official'* appearance of Gypsies, and
doesn't necessarily mean they were not already there.  As far as I can tell,
he doesn't specifically mention a date for their appearance in England, but
if once they'd reached Wales and Scotland, could England be far behind?  And
it occurs to me that if Elizabeth I passed a law against them, they must
have already been noticeably there for a while - enough to make their
presence felt!

Caitlin ni Cumhaill.
________________________________________________________________________________
Lila Richards, PO Box 13715, Christchurch, New Zealand.   Email: lila at lynx.co.nz
                 

From: lila at lynx.CO.NZ (Lila Richards)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Gypsies.
Date: 7 Oct 1995 21:57:18 -0400
Organization: The Internet

Carolyn Boselli wrote:
>In Ireland, Tinkers.

According to Jean-Paul Clebert in 'The Gypsies' (pub. Penguin), Tinkers (not
just an Irish term, though in Scotland they're called Tinklers) are almost
certainly not true Rom (Gypsies) at all.  The name tinker is related to the
roots 'tik', 'tin'k', and 'tsink', onomatpoeic terms relating the sound of
hammer on anvil, and is thus a generic term for the itinerant smiths and
tinmen of Britain.  They live like Gypsies, and use some Gypsy words, but
are most probably not Gypsies.  They refer to themselves as 'travellers' and
aborigines (!!).  Clebert also says that a lot of Irish who left Ireland
after the famines ended up wandering around Wales, living, like Gypsies,
from tinsmithing, horse dealing, fortune-telling - and housebreaking and
burglary.

I bought Clebert's book many years ago (my edition was published in 1970.),
so I don't know whether it's still available.  But Clebert, who was in the
Resistance during WWII, also wrote on the archaeology and prehistory of
Provence, where he lived, as well as:  'Paris insolite,' about the tramps of
Paris; 'La Vie Sauvage', about vagrants; and 'Le Blockhaus', about
imprisoned men.  At the time my book was published, he was apparently
working on a novel dealing with the psychology of a spy.  I believe he had
also lived with Gypsies.  The book has some wonderful photographs.

Caitlin ni Cumhaill na Cruachan.
________________________________________________________________________________
Lila Richards, PO Box 13715, Christchurch, New Zealand.   Email: lila at lynx.co.nz


From: bj at alpha1.csd.uwm.edu (Barbara Jean Kuehl)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Gypsies.
Date: 8 Oct 1995 02:20:54 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee

Caitlin (lila at lynx.CO.NZ (Lila Richards) writes:
> According to Jean-Paul Clebert in 'The Gypsies' (pub. Penguin) 
			[snip all that good information]

Out of all the books I've read so far on the subject of gypsies,
Clebert's book is the absolute best.  I recommend it highly for
anyone who wants to learn about the movement and culture of the
gypsies throughout Europe.

As for whether or not it is still in print, I can't say.  But I
got my copy from the university library, so it is available.

				BJ


From: ansteorra at eden.com (10/20/95)
To: ansteorra at eden.com
RE>Early Dance

>Ah yes, the "gypsies" (that's an exonym, you know.) are an amazing group of
>people. Did you know there are still laws on the books that were
>specifically designed to harrass them? Anyhow, I have a whol lot of
>information on them as a culture (recipes, examples of laws against them,
>etc.) that I will vouch is accurate, Since it's the same info they give the
>UN, and that I was given by one of their delegates. Anyone interested should
>email me, and I'll dig it all out...:)
>
>ps - the term they use for themselves is "Rom" or "Romani". They don't like
>"Gypsy". :)
>
>Cat

There is a professor, Dr. Ian Hancock, here in the English department who
is an authority on the Romani culture and the discrimination against them.
He is a founding member of the Romani Anti-Defamation Assn.(?) and makes
regular trips to Eastern Europe.  If anyone is really interested, they
might try to contact him.

Catherine

[Editor's note: "here" refers to the University of Texas in Austin, TX]


From: Garick Chamberlin <Garick at vonkopke.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Gypsies
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 95 21:05:11 GMT
Organization: Drachenwald

sandradodd at aol.com "SandraDodd" writes:
>What are Gypsies called in other languages?  Spanish is Gitano, I think.
> 
> AElflaed

The German is "Zigeuner." I have no idea what the etimology of that is,
however.
 
The Arabic is "Ghajer." (spelling conjectural,as Arabic uses a differen 
alphabet) This comes from a root word meaning "to scold, uses abusive language,
curse, swear."  Seems the Arabs didn't think much of the Rom.  On the other 
hand, another term used for Gypsies in Arabic (though much more rarely) is
"Nawar." This term, which is also used for vagabonds or tramps, comes from a
root word that most often means "to illuminate, or make light," though it also
means "to bloom," and many derivitive words have to do with fire.
-- 
Viscount Sir Garick von Kopke


From: Brenda <blhunter at mtholyoke.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Attn: gypsy personas!!!
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 23:02:39 -0500
Organization: Mount Holyoke College

Bre!

	I have been in contact with Rebecca Tracy, a representative of the
Gypsy Lore Society.  She will be in the Barony of Bergental, East Kingdom
during January and is delighted at having the opportunity to speak with 
interested Scadians.  I am asking for a weekend date and am waiting for 
confirmation.

	Please contact me directly if you are interested in being on an 
e-mailing list regarding this event.  For those unable to attend please 
send any queries you want addressed and I will try to get answers for you.

	The Gypsy Lore Society has a web site:
		http://metro.turnpike.net/R/rtracy/index.html

				Regards,
			   Augustina Be Arce


From: DVANARSD at systema.westark.EDU (Dennis VanArsdale)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: travel/caravan wagons
Date: 8 Jan 1996 14:48:00 -0500
Organization: Westark Community College

On 6 Jan 1996, Robert Youngs wrote:
> I would be very grateful for any comments, directions, or suggestions
> from the gathered assemblages on the subject of the use and
> construction of 'travelling wagons' or 'caravan wagons' (such as is
> typified by 'gypsy wagons') during period.
>   --- Robert, known as Badger, the Curious ---
RESPONSE:
Having done a chunk of research with much the same intent just a few 
months ago, I can tell you what I found:
A. The classic gypsy caravan wagons were actually not built until the 
1800s, which puts them out of our period.  They were usually built by 
commercial carriage shops for the gypsies, since they took a lot of 
woodworking and other equipment.  But, boy, they do look neat!
B. The best books I found were English, and I got a look at some of 
them through interlibrary loan.  BTW - ask your library to search 
OCLC (an international database) or First Search (an easy-access 
version) for subjects like this.
I can't guarantee you can still borrow these, but try: The English 
gypsy caravan: its origins, builders, technology, and conservation, 
by C.M. Ward-Jackson, 2nd edition 1986, David & Charles (OCLC  
15109447, if your library wants to find it fast); or  Gypsy caravans: 
their history and restoration, by E. Alan Jones, Signs-Malton, 1981 
(OCLC 16549099); or  Discovering horse-drawn caravans, by Donald John 
Smith, Shire publications, 1981 (OCLC 8778833).
As I said, this all indicates that the fancy models we've seen in 
movies are OOP.  Knowing Fine Woodworking, if an article covered any 
of this, it may be a little thin on details, but these books cover 
the subject pretty well, and some have color photos if you want to 
check the paint schemes.
C. I tried something of this using my 4x8 trailer, but went more with a 
late period plaster-wall-with-wood-lath look, and topped it with a 
curved roof with fancy end caps and a scalloped edging.  The hardest 
part was building it in pieces one person could handle, since it all 
had to come apart and be stored, and travel only partly assembled 
(less wind resistance!).  The roof was in three sections, with the 
rear section able to slide back and refasten so that a porch was 
created.  I'd suggest you figure out what size trailer you can pull 
easily (with present and future vehicles!) and start getting 
creative based on that chassis.  Just remember that road travel 
shakes everything loose if it can, so fasten everything with screws 
and bolts - nails are not dependable.

Hope this helps!  -- Denys de Houtbewerker (Denys the Woodworker), 
Shire of Smythkepe, Region of Gleann Abhain, Kingdom of Meridies.


From: nicolic at aol.com (Nicoli C)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Info about gyspies
Date: 6 Feb 1996 14:01:23 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)

Two books that give information of the Gypsy Culture Historicly are:

   The Gypsies by Jean-Paul Clebert, translated by Charles Duff 
   Gypsy Demons and Divinities by Elwood B. Trigg

The unfortuante thing is that both of these books, I beleive, are out of
print.  The best chance is local libraries.  WHen searching, remember that
the name Gypsies is spelled many different ways.  Gypsies Gipsies, etc.

Much luck to you all.
         -Radu The Red, Gypsy at Large


From: bj at alpha1.csd.uwm.edu (Barbara Jean Kuehl)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Gypsy names
Date: 8 Mar 1996 23:36:22 GMT
Organization: Information & Media Technologies, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee

Well, I finally finished reading "The Gypsies" by Jean-Paul
Clebert, an excellent source of information regarding the
movement and culture of the little Egyptians as they made
their way from their origin in India and spread west across
Europe and northern Africa.

Because a number of people have recently expressed an interest
in devising a gypsy persona and have asked questions about
gypsy names, I thought you might like to know that Clebert
talks a little about how the gypsies named themselves.

Each gypsy had three names.  The first was a secret name
whispered into the baby's ear shortly after birth and again
when the child reached puberty but never spoken aloud at
any other time and never told to anyone else.  The second
was a gypsy name, used between gypsies only.  The third was
a local name, usually chosen to reflect the general names
being given to nongypsies in the country where the gypsy
resided.  This was the name the gypsy was to use publically,
with a gadje (nongypsy), or for on official documents.

Clebert gives no suggestion of what a gypsy's secret name
might be.  Their public name would be just like a gadje's
name, i.e., George Maldonnis, Pierre Gabriel, Marie Valliene,
or Michael Smith.  As for their gypsy name, Clebert says
that men liked names such as Frinkelo, Fero, Yakali, Miya,
Vaya, Yerko, Chuvula, Ilika and Terkari, while women liked
such names as Dunicha, Tereina, Malilini, Saviya, Oraga,
Tekla, Orka and Savina.

				BJ


From: "Perkins" <lwperkins at snip.net>
Subject: Re: Gypsies
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Date: 25 Mar 97 03:06:29 GMT

> Stefan le rous wrote: There was a very good class taught at this last Pennsic, 
> Pennsic  XXV on Gypsies and Gypsie history. Perhaps someone here will know the 
> name of the lady who was teaching this course since she would be another
> good source for information.

That would be Lady Keja Ruvni, mka Candy Miesen.  For gypsy questions write
her at wingedwolf at juno.com.  She can't read the rialto because she has no
internet access.. yet. She's the head of an informal extended family of
gypsies called Tribe Winged Wolf, and a gracious and generous correspondent
to people looking for gypsy info.
--Ester 


Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 22:01:40 -0600
From: cauldron at net1plus.com
Subject: Re: Gypsies
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

vrose at indy.net (Valerie Rose) wrote:
>    In my seemingly never ending quest for a possible new persona for
> myself, and possibly my SO (*if* I can get him to change his), it was
> pointed out to me that Gypsy might be fun.......and also allow me to still
> possibly be from those areas of Europe that I was interested in at the
> same time.
>    So, if you have any suggestions, information, etc. about Gypsies, and
> Gypsies in the SCA, I would be very grateful if you would let me know
> about them. I am talking with one very nice lady who runs a Gypsy
> household right now, via email, and would like to hear about more, from
> others. I am also reading several books that I got from my local library
> about Gypsies, and the more I read the more interested I become.

Milady,

I have some Romany in my mundane background (my mundane last name is Rom,
but I'm definitely a gaje) and I had a Romany persona for five years,
before switching to the one I currently hold, and it had its pros and
cons. Let me list a few points to consider.

1. First, the term "Gypsy" is a gaje term (gaje being the Rom word for
any non-gypsy, said in the same contemptuous way as "mundane); the proper
term is Rom, or Romany for the entire people or the language. To say that
Gypsies are clannish is the understatement of the millenia. If you are
Rom, it's built into your culture to distrust *any* Gaje, male or female.
You can hang around them enough to swindle them, steal from them, or sell
them something, but that's all. If you consort with the gaje too often,
you run the risk of becoming "marhime" or outcast. On a persona level,
this means being a Rom in SCA restricts your persona from making close
friends who are gaje, and also helping at events, or getting awards, etc.
A real Rom wouldn't do these things. I had a whole "kumpania" of Rom to
hang out with and jeer at the gaje, so I wasn't lonely, but unless you're
in the same situation, you might think twice.

2. You want to be a Rom? Where and when? The "where" will determine the
"when". If it's Europe, you'll have a Renaissance persona. The Rom left
India in about A.D. 700's, and wandered through the Middle East for some
centuries, coming to the gates of Rome in - I think - mid-15th century.
Check your books, they'll tell you about their crazy story of how they
were Christ's nailmakers, and this got them into Rome until their
behavior got them thrown out. They came into England during the time of
Queen Elizabeth, and were there less than a century before James threw
them out. (On a fun disguised romp with his men-at-arms, he came on to a
Rom woman, and she "came crack over his head with a bottle", after which
he hounded them all out of England and Scotland.) Quite a few took refuge
in the mountains of Wales and in Ireland, or went back to the Continent.
It would be another century before they could legally enter the country.

>    Also, did anyone out there see the recent TNT version of "The Hunchback
> Of Notre Dame"? I *LOVED* Salma Hayek's outfit as Esmerelda. I know that
> the colors were too bright to be period, and the almost transparent fabric
> that they used for her blouse was not period either. But, I liked the
> *style* of the outfit, the *design*. Would the design be ok? How about the
> design of the blouse? The shorter sleeves, with the ties? I am no expert,
> but I liked the style of that blouse very much. Does anyone have
> suggestions of fabric types, patterns, etc?

I haven't seen the one you referring to, but I can tell you that what
Romany women wore was generally ragged, cast-off versions of what
everyone else around them wore, since they were usually getting the
cast-off clothing of the gaje. Their trademarks, brought with the from
the mideast, were a love of bright colors (when they could get them),
bright fringed scarves for head and hips, rings in their ears (men,
women, and children), as many strings of cheap beads as they could
muster, low necklines and long skirts for women (they didn't consider
cleavage to be immodest, but don't you dare show leg!) and general
poverty.

Which brings us to point 3: Rom women made money either by
fortunetelling, which wasn't allowed for men, begging, or selling small
trifles such as homemade baskets and clothespins. Rom men were usually
metalworkers, tinkers, traders, or horsebreeders. Rom children were
taught to beg and steal from the gaje at a young age. The Romany have a
rather interesting morality; they believe that the gaje were put here on
earth to support them, and therefore it's all right to steal from them. I
changed personas when my daughter began to get old enough to figure this
out, and wanted to know if she could start stealing from the other
SCAdians, since, after all, it was in period. (She was already a
consummate beggar.) At this point I decided the whole family needed a
change of persona!

Choosing a Romany persona can be a lot of fun - or as restrictive as
being a monk, in its own way! My advice is to do a *lot* of research (and
not from movies, TV, romance novels, etc.!) before you leap into it. I'd
be glad to help you with whatever questions you have; I still have a
good-sized library of books from when I was researching my genealogy.

                                            Devlesa avilan,

                                               Hauptmann Julian Ranulf
                                                 (mundanely Raven Kaldera
                                      who still remembers a little Romany)


From: rowenstuffer at earthlink.net (Rowen Stuffer)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Gaelic/Irish word for gypsy
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 01:05:37 GMT

> > I am Russian Gypsy story-teller, 

> "Gypsie" was not what the Gypsies called themselves. And sometimes
> those you might think of as Gypsies were not Gypsies at all. 
> My files can be found at:
> http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/rialto/rialto.html

Greetings, Stefan, and well met!

Thanks for the quick reply. Doesn't help quite a lot, however. I am
very familiar with your archives, and wish (on a side note) to throw
out a *HUGE* HUHZAH(s) and VIVAT(s) for your efforts. Truly, they have
already been a help to me and, I'm sure, to many others.. Back to the
main track...

No, really, I've researched an Eastern Europe gypsy persona. If you or
anyone else following this, are interested, an excellent source is
"The Gypsies of Eastern Europe", edited by David Crowe and John
Kolstic, C.1991. It traces the lives of the Rom from their entrance
into this part of the world.

I play Romany of full blood. While we speak English as a common
tongue, I do not yet speak Gaelic, being new to her isles and milady
Siobhan would not know Rom, since she is gaje. Still, we are young, we
are in love, and wondered what "gypsy" would translate to, a phase she
would drop in her native tongue as an affectionate term. Mayhap there
is no translation, but we were curious.

Ever grateful,
Tzigan


From: "Maureen S. O'Brien" <mobrien at dnaco.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Gaelic/Irish word for gypsy
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 00:34:33 -0800
Organization: Dayton Network Access Company

Rowen Stuffer wrote:
> I play Romany of full blood. While we speak English as a common
> tongue, I do not yet speak Gaelic, being new to her isles and milady
> Siobhan would not know Rom, since she is gaje. Still, we are young, we
> are in love, and wondered what "gypsy" would translate to, a phase she
> would drop in her native tongue as an affectionate term. Mayhap there
> is no translation, but we were curious.

giofo/g (the slash is supposed to be an accent mark over the second o) 
is the Modern Irish word for 'gypsy'.  It would seem to be derived from
English 'gypsy' (the giof part), with a suffix (o/g means young) that's 
used as a diminutive or affectionate ending, or at least tends to make
a lot of Irish words longer.

I can't guess how old this word is, so I won't.  I don't know if there
were Rom in Ireland or not (though I'd be surprised if there weren't!).
But it seems reasonable that Irish people would know about gypsies, if
only by reputation, and have a word for them.  And if somebody else 
knows more about this than me, I'd like to hear about it.


From: scott at math.csuohio.edu (Brian M. Scott)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Gaelic/Irish word for gypsy
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 01:30:56 GMT
Organization: Cleveland State University

On Tue, 01 Apr 1997 00:34:33 -0800, "Maureen S. O'Brien"
<mobrien at dnaco.net> wrote:

[snip]

>giofo/g (the slash is supposed to be an accent mark over the second o) 
>is the Modern Irish word for 'gypsy'.

There's also a variant <giobo/g>.  If these are derived from the
English term, which (in the form <gypcian>) seems to appear in the
16th c., then the Irish word is likely to be essentially modern.
However, I doubt that that's the origin.  It seems phonetically
unlikely, and <giobo/g> at least looks as if it may be related to
<giob> 'a tail, a scrap, a bit' and many other words beginning with
<giob-> and having related meanings.  For instance, a <gioblacha/n> is
'a ragged, unkempt person; a beggar'.

Talan Gwynek


From: G.P.Collis at liverpool.ac.UK (gpcollis)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Announcement: Gypsy Collections webpage
Date: 2 Apr 1997 03:27:24 -0500

The Gypsy Collections at the University of Liverpool now have webpages at:
        http://www.liv.ac.uk/Library/special/gypsy/intro.htm
In the near future this will include a search engine for the Collections' catalogues and indexes.

Hope this is of interest!
Paddy Collis gpcollis at liv.ac.uk
Project Assistant, Gypsy Collections
University of Liverpool Special Collections & Archives


From: gedney1 at iconn.net (brandu)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Gaelic/Irish word for gypsy
Date: 7 Apr 1997 02:58:23 GMT

scott at math.csuohio.edu (Brian M. Scott) wrote:

> On Tue, 01 Apr 1997 00:34:33 -0800, "Maureen S. O'Brien"
> <mobrien at dnaco.net> wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> >giofo/g (the slash is supposed to be an accent mark over the second o) 
> >is the Modern Irish word for 'gypsy'.
[snip snip]
> 
> Talan Gwynek

Why not use the gaelic for "the travelling people"?
My mother says this is what her family called the "Gypsies" in her fathers
native Galway


From: kkozmins at mtholyoke.edu (Kim C Kozminski)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Gaelic/Irish word for gypsy
Date: 8 Apr 1997 22:49:04 GMT
Organization: Mount Holyoke College

        I happen to have a book on Irish Tinkers on my shelf,the author 
is Janine Weidel and Martina O'Fearadhaigh.  The foreward mentions that 
some historians can date "Travelers"(non-Romany Irish "Gypsys")as far 
back as the early Celts, and almost certainly before the twelfth 
century.  These early travelers were metal-worker (specifically 
rivet-makers) called in Gaelic "Tuath Semon".
        Mistress Roen


Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 08:20:00 -0500 (CDT)
To: ansteorra at eden.com
From: nweders at mail.utexas.edu (ND Wederstrandt)
Subject: Re: gypsies

>I've  heard that they are a very " private" people, that doesn't really like
>being photographed,
>And I wonder how to act and approach them,and that kind of practical things..
>And do you know, who I maybe can contact, an organization or whatever, that
>can help me to get in touch with them?

I've been fascinated with gypsies since I was a little kid, so here's what 
little I know.

Yes they are an extremely private people.  In eastern Europe, they
are mostly treated as non-people.  They are distrustful and I don't blame
them.

A good recent book that has just come out is called "Bury Me Standing".  I
can get the name of the author and publisher if need be.  There is also a
world renown authority on the Rom at University of Texas here in Austin
where I work.  His name is Dr. Ian Hancock, his e-mail address is
xulaj at mail.utexas.edu.  He is of English Traveler or Rom descent.  I
recommend you read the book and then maybe contact Dr. Hancock.  The woman
who wrote the book spent a considerable amount of time researching and
making contacts.

Culturally, the Rom are very different from western non-Rom
culture.  They have distinct health and cleanliness taboos, and have strong
male and female relationships.  "A Gift" which might be suitable would be
cigarettes or cigarette lighters.  But those are good almost anywhere.

N.D. Wederstrandt


From: Wayne Anderson <nospamwander at directcon.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Gypsie Garb help!
Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 12:46:13 -0800
Organization: Global Valley Internet, Sacramento

Sorry, I didn't see the original post, so I don't know what era you're
interested in.  If it's late period, there are several 16th century
paintings of gypsy fortune tellers that show them wearing high-necked
shifts (one has blackwork around the neck and wrist bands) with a loose
long garment that appears to be a large rectangle worn under one arm and
fastenened with a brooch at the opposite shoulder.  A cloth turban-type
headress is also worn.

Sorry I can't give you the references, all my books are packed till I
get bookshelves made. Try looking for coffee table books on fortune
telling or gypsies.

Maudeleyn of Bryn Aur


Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 19:58:52 -0500
From: Rowen Stuffer <rowenstuffer at earthlink.net>
To: "Mark S. Harris" <markh at risc.sps.mot.com>
Subject: Re: Gaelic/Irish word for gypsy

> > I am Russian Gypsy story-teller, 

> "Gypsie" was not what the Gypsies called themselves. And sometimes
> those you might think of as Gypsies were not Gypsies at all. 

Greetings, Stefan, and well met!

Thanks for the quick reply. Doesn't help quite a lot, however. I am very
familiar with your archives, and wish (on a side note) to throw out a
*HUGE* HUHZAH and VIVAT for your efforts. Truly, they have already been
a help to me. Back to the main track...

No, really, I've researched an Eastern Europe gypsy persona. If you or
anyone else following this are interested, an excellent source is "The
Gypsies of Eastern Europe", edited by David Crowe and John Kolstic,
C.1991. It traces the lives of the Rom from their entrance into this
part of the world.

I play Romany of full blood. While we speak English as a common tongue,
I do not yet speak Gaelic, being new to her isles and milady Siobhan
would not know Rom, since she is gaje. Still, we are young, we are in
love, and wondered what "gypsy" would translate to, a phase she would
drop in her native tongue as an affectionate term. Mayhap there is no
translation, but we were curious.

Tzigan
-- 
Rowen Stuffer


From: lesterw at mindspring.com (Lester Williams)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Polish Rom (Gypsy)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 23:15:21 GMT

nickoftym at aol.com (Nickof tym) wrote:
>I'm looking for some information on the costumes of the Gypsies during 
>the 1400's-1500's, specifically those in Poland.
>
>Rafal

You may want to try "The Gypsies" by Angus Fraser.  I have only
skimmed the book but there appeared to be lots of stuff about European
Gypsies.

Also  try the webpage www.geocities.com/Paris/5121/patrin.htm
This is the best page on the history of the Gypsies that I have seen.
There is an extensive bibliography as well.

Blodwen, Tribe Zareefat


From: Wayne Anderson <nospamwander at directcon.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Gypsie Garb help!
Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 12:46:13 -0800
Organization: Global Valley Internet, Sacramento

Sorry, I didn't see the original post, so I don't know what era you're
interested in.  If it's late period, there are several 16th century
paintings of gypsy fortune tellers that show them wearing high-necked
shifts (one has blackwork around the neck and wrist bands) with a loose
long garment that appears to be a large rectangle worn under one arm and
fastenened with a brooch at the opposite shoulder.  A cloth turban-type
headress is also worn.

Sorry I can't give you the references, all my books are packed till I
get bookshelves made. Try looking for coffee table books on fortune
telling or gypsies.

Maudeleyn of Bryn Aur


From: lesterw at mindspring.com (Lester Williams)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Polish Rom (Gypsy)
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 23:15:21 GMT

nickoftym at aol.com (Nickof tym) wrote:
>I'm looking for some information on the costumes of the Gypsies during the
>1400's-1500's, specifically those in Poland.
>
>Rafal

You may want to try "The Gypsies" by Angus Fraser.  I have only
skimmed the book but there appeared to be lots of stuff about European
Gypsies.

Also  try the webpage www.geocities.com/Paris/5121/patrin.htm
This is the best page on the history of the Gypsies that I have seen.
There is an extensive bibliography as well.

Blodwen, Tribe Zareefat


From: "AliQat" <spam at ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Persona help/gypsy question
Date: 18 Dec 1999 21:29:26 GMT
Organization: Gray Owl Ltd.

RingMaster ...... <RingMaster16 at webtv.net> wrote:
> I am brand new to SCA and I was wanting to take the persona of a gypsy
> thief who was abandoned by his caravan and ended up in Calontir.  If
> anyone has info on gypsy fashions of the time or anything, please help
> me!!!!!  I also need to think up a good name.  Thanks

A friend gave me a book for Christmas last year that you might find useful.
 It's called "A History of the Gypsies of Eastern Europe and Russia".  The
Author is David M. Crowe, published by St. Martin's Griffin, 175 Fifth
Ave., New York, NY, 10010.  Copyright is 1994 & 1996.

The book covers "the life, history, and culture of the Gypsie, or Roma from
their early appearances in the regin during the middle ages until the
present."  It only has one photo, but the narrative is pretty good (I
haven't read it through yet.)  I would imagine you could get it through
Amazon.com.


From: <hrjones at socrates.berkeley.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: gypsys
Date: 6 Jun 2000 03:21:35 GMT
Organization: University of California at Berkeley

Katie Morton <purplekatie at cheerful.com> wrote:
:         I am intrested in the garb that both sexes would have worn, roughly
: around the 1400-1600 (I belive the 15th centuary is when the gypsys
: started roaming).  Any and all books, websites and, the treasure chest,
: so to speak, PAINTINGS with gypsys in them!

DeMarly, Diana.  "The Modification of Gipsy Dress in ARt, 1500-1650" in
Costume: The Journal of the Costume Society; 23(1989):54-63.

It's the only thing I've ever run across specifically on the topic.

Tangwystyl
*********************************************************
Heather Rose Jones         hrjones at socrates.berkeley.edu
**********************************************************


Subject: Re: gypsys
From: HrMortcia <hrmortciaNOhrSPAM at yahoo.com.invalid>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 07:38:47 -0700

http://www.geocities.com/Paris/5121/index.html
http://dmoz.org/Society/Ethnicity/Romani/

the first link to "The Patrin" has a timeline.  a note: all the
research i did indicated just what you have perviously noted that
the "gypsy" people wore clothign very similar to the rest of
society but that women  were required to cover their heads.  The
Patrin has a lot of interesting reading about culture and
religious beliefs which gives more clues to dress. It seems that
a rgeat deal of the concept of a "gypsy" is in fact romanticized
*suprise* 8) happy hunting!


From: "Dionisia" <sthomas at autovat.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: gypsys
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 09:37:10 -0700

For all things Middle Eastern, Gypsy, and Oriental, check out
http://www.al-mustarib.org/. There is a great collection of links that
should take you in circles around the web to find lots of info.  There is
also a ME mailing list (which at times moves to/encompasses gypsy personas)
list you can sign onto there that would link you to lots of wonderful people
with a wealth of information.  The mailing list tends to hover around ME
Dance, but a lot of naming, persona, costuming discussions occur there as
well!
Hope this helps a little,
Dioinisia


Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:46:34 -0500
From: "Katrina O'Keefe" <katrina at unreachable.com>
To: bryn-gwlad at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: BG - Costume resources??

Brad S wrote:
>   I was wondering if someone could help me. I am building several costumes for >an event that requires several gypsy costumes. I need them to be as period as >possible and am having trouble finding info on what all that would entail.
> Pitney

As a gypsy (with an eye for period wear) I can make some small recommendations. Anything a local lower or middle class person for the time and area you are in is perfect. Then take a look at the colors. Bright primary colors are preferred. If you have the time middle eastern and Indian style embroidering and bells work well added on including the little sewn-on mirrors (I forget what it's called off the top of my head). You can actually get those
in iron-on and trim now at most Hancock fabrics. Use ribbon instead of lace at cuffs and collars and have fun with it. Mostly, just think that these clothes may have been the only all season wear for a person constantly on the move. I cut my sleeves less baggy and my hems just a bit higher then what's recommended. If you have any other questions please e-mail me at
katrina at unreachable.com

Ldy Catalina Ana de Salamanca


Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 18:02:31 -0500
To: bryn-gwlad at ansteorra.org
From: "N.D. Wederstrandt" <nweders at mail.utexas.edu>
Subject: Re: BG - Costume resources??

>As a gypsy (with an eye for period wear) I can make some small
>recommendations. Anything a local lower or middle class person for the
>time and area you are in is perfect. Then take a look at the colors.
>Bright primary colors are preferred. If you have the time middle eastern
>and Indian style embroidering and bells work well added on including the
>little sewn-on mirrors (I forget what it's called off the top of my head).
>You can actually get those
>in iron-on and trim now at most Hancock fabrics. Use ribbon instead of
>lace at cuffs and collars and have fun with it. Mostly, just think that
>these clothes may have been the only all season wear for a person
>constantly on the move. I cut my sleeves less baggy and my hems just a bit
>higher then what's recommended. If you have any other questions please
>e-mail me at
>katrina at unreachablecom

I would suggest a book called "Bury Me Standing"  by Isabel Fonesca. It has
drawing of what period gypsy costumes probably looked like.  They don't
really look like carmen at al with bright colors and head scarves.  That is
a more recent invention.  If you're trying to achieve a fantasy gypsy
outfit thoogh go for it-- the bright colors and such are fine.  Those are
more in keeping with the Spanish Gypsies.  The English tinkers are very
different as are the Eastern European gypsies.  I was very surprised at
what period gypsies look like.  It's very different from what I imagined.

Clare


Subject: Re: ANST - Gpysy stuff names more if you want it
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 11:46:41 -0500
From: jonwillowpel at juno.com
To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org

Along with these names there is a cook book of Gypsy foods. If you want a
copy write me.
Willow

> These names are from the Gypsy-English Dictionary (Kaldarash dialect) edited
> by L.N. Cherenkov, published by Moscow Russky Yazyi publishers, 1990
>
> This one is more women's names, men's will be a seperate post.
> Anelka, Anuaka, Armanka, Babina, Bayana, Belka,
> Bena, Bica, Bilya, Bina, Binuca, Birka, Bizuca
> Bota, Botana, Boyala, Bresa, Briya, Buna, Burgulya
> Cini, Cora, Cura, Camba, Cernyavka, Cilyana, Cilyanka
> Dana, Danira, Darka, Dena, Diamanta, Diduka, Dika
> Dilinka, Dina, Domka, Donya, Draga, Duda, Dudarka
> Dulca, Dundya, Dyana, Dyolbana, Dyombala
> Dyula, Feastra, Gana, Gafa, Gafica, Gaftona, Grinza, Guda
> Kali, Kapica, Kata, Katarina, Kati, Keza, Kica, Kokana
> Kolombina, Krizma, Krizmarica, Kruca, Kumbriya, Kuna
> Lina, Loli, Loyzi, Loza, Luga, Lukreciya, Lula, Luludi
> Luna, Lutka, Luska, Luza, Lyalya, Lyanka, Lyuka
> Madoka, Mala, Malaska, Malika, Malyoxa, Mandica
> Manevra, Mara, Marca, Mardyola, Marga, Margayka
> Margoska, Maruca, Marulya, Matora, Matryona, Matuska
> Mileva, Mina, Miyula, Mica, Morana, Mugulya, Murzatka
> Muyara, Mentanya, Meriya, Nataliya
> Papin, Papina, Papus, Paralya, Parastiva, Patrina
> Pavia, Pavlena, Persi, Pika, Pitoc, Piyada, Pucuranka
> Puna, Pupi, Putya, Peperuga, Persuda, Pevuna
> Phabay, Rayka, Roseriya, Rufa, Rupinka, Rupla, Ruza
> Sabina, Saveta, Sima, Sofa, Solomiya, Sonya, Staya
> Stura, Senuca, Sana, Seryadya, Seyica, Taliya, Terenka
> Tereza, Terka, Teza, Tinka, Vandya, Vena, Vota, Volya
> Volyana, Voronka, Voronsana, Vorza, Vorzana, Vorzanka
> Xilya, Xilyka, Yana, Yeva, Yela, Yelena, Yordana
> Yoza, Yula, Yulyca, Zaga, Zamba, Zambila, Zamfira
> Zana, Zanda, Zizya, Zofinya, Zolfina, Zorpina, Zuzana
> Zuzi, Zuzulya, Zofi, Zoska, Zuza


From: Donna Ford <evfemia at mail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: gypsy?????
Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 22:53:25 -0500

Lynette wrote:
> I'd like to be a gypsy, anyone know where I can find info on dress?
> I am very new , hopefully soon,I will learn where to look for ideas......
> untill then I could use some help, please....:)
> Lynette

There is an sca list for those with gypsy persona.  You can subscribe to
it at SCA_Gypsy-subscribe at egroups.com and post messages at
SCA_Gypsy at egroups.com
-- 
evfemia
Barony of Iron Mountain, Meridies


To: 	SCA Newcomers list <scanewcomers at yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: By way of introduction
Posted by: "Sebhdann" azurphnx at gmail.com suzanne_voris
Date: Sun Jan 3, 2010 8:47 am ((PST))

If you check out this Yahoo Group:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kumpania/

The description of the group on the main page reads:

Gypsy / Rrom Persona / Traveler e-list; events and information for
Theatrical Gypsy Players (Med Dance, Music, Story Telling, Fire, Role
Playing, etc.). Ren Faire SCA Friendly. Our "Virtual Vardo" is caravanning
the Knowne Worlde.

Please share your stories and adventures. Add your photos to the albums
pages and help us build a better understanding of each other (and which face
we choose to show the world) through file sharing and life experiences.

This group is for respectful, intellectual (and playful) cultural exchange.
It is not meant to be an offense to any people. Kushti bok!

It doesn't seem to be a 'high-volume message' group though.
-- 
Slán!

Sebhdann ingen Cinaedha
Shire of Wyewood, An Tir


From the FB "Library of Alexander" group:
1/22/14
Aspasia Moonwind 
Recommended books 
1. Donald Kenrick GYPSIES: FROM THE GANGES TO THE THAMES.ISBN1090280602309 2001

2. Isabel Fonseca BURY ME STANDING ?THE GYPSIES AND THEIR JOURNEY. 1996 ISBN 0-679-73743-X

3. GYPSY LAW: ROMANI LEGAL TRADTIONS AND CULTURE edted by Walter O. Weyrauch 2001 ISBN 978-0-520-22186-4

4. THE GYPSIES by Angus Fraser 1995 ISBN 0-651-19605-6

5. WE ARE THE ROMANI PEOPLE by Ian Hancock 2005 ISBN 1 902806 19 0

Remember, each country called them by their local names for them. Gypsy is the English version on their claiming to be from Little Egypt. and...there is the saying "Ask 20 Gypsies the same question and you get 20 different answers. Ask the same Gypsy the same question 20 times and you get 20 answers." Much of this you have to take tongue in cheek unless you get it from more than one independent source.

<the end>
Edited by Mark S. Harris	Gypsies-msg	Page 25 of 26