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Gypsies-msg - 8/2/01

 

Gypsy culture. Also called Rom or Romani.

 

NOTE: See also these files: East-Eur-msg, Hungary-msg, Europe-msg, jewelry-msg, cl-EastEur-msg, cl-Spain-msg, carts-msg.

 

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NOTICE -

 

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

 

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

 

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

 

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

 

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

 

Thank you,

    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous

                                          Stefan at florilegium.org

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From: meg at tinhat.stonemarche.org (meg)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: gypsies

Date: Thu, 24 Feb 94 01:16:48 EST

Organization: Stonemarche Network Co-op

 

Greetings from Megan, who happens to have more than a passing interest in

Gypsy history.  Here follows a much abreviated overview:

 

The Gypsies do NOT come from Egypt, they come from India. IN

In the Life of George Mtharsmindel of Mount Athos, written in the

mid-11th century, there is mention of Asincan people who were described

as well known magicians and rogues. In 1322, Simon Simeonis describes

similar people living in Crete.  In around 1340, a priest of Cologne

describes a people he refers to as Mandapolos, who had a unique language.

In  1350 Ludolphus of Sudheim also mentions them.  Note that the name

Mandapolos is possibly a corruption of the Greek word Mantipolos, mening

fortune teller.  In 1386, the feudum Acinganorum are said to live on

Corfu.  This word is the prototype of the German Zigeuner, the Italian

Zingaro, and the French Tsigane, Polish Cygan. In 1384, forty families

were documented as living at the foot of the Carpathians who were called

Acigani vel Cygani.  In 1416, they were noted in Bohemia. In 1416, a

chronicler described a man called Emaus from Egypt, who appeared at

Kronstadt in Transylvania together with 220 followers.  On August 30,

1417, the Gypsies reacahed Zurich, Magdeburg and Lubeck, and in 1418

"poor people from Little Egypt" came to Strasbourg and Frankfurt. On

Oct.1, 1419 there were seen at Sisteron in Provence, on November 1 at

Augsburg, in 1420 "Master Andreas, the Prince of Little Egypt" came to

Deventer in Holland with his followers and 40 horses. "Andrea, Duke of

Egypt" rested on July 18 1422 at Bologna before going on via Forli to

Rome for an audience with the Pope.  In 1422 a large horde with 50 horses

led by one Michael arrives at Basle, before going on to Italy, Alsace and

France.(all this is loosely written from The Gypsies in Poland, by Jerzy

Ficowski, Interpress Publishers.)

 

The Gypsy wagons are a very recent development, dating from the late 18th

early 19th century. Befoe that, they travelled by foot and horseback,

setting up tents by night.

 

Modern Gypsies hold an annual convention/conference in France each

summer. A friend of mine from Belur, Tamil Nadu, India, is a delegate to

this convention.  He has done extensive research into the linguistic

trends of their migrations. The Gypsy Language was first noted as being

similar to Indian languages in 1763, but it wasn't until 1927 that

R>L>Turner linked the  language with the Dardic and Kafir tribes.

 

There is a good bit of information extant about Gypsies before 1650. Not

too much is translated ito English, unfortunately, but there are some

good ppictures.

 

It would be refreshing and interesting to see some authentic Gypsies in

the SCA. Their society and culture is complex and fascinating, strictly

regimented and circumscribed.

 

Megan

 

PS  here's Gypsy riddle...The more you cut off it, the bigger it gets.

 

Answer: a hole.

==

In 1994: Linda Anfuso

In the Current Middle Ages: Megan ni Laine de Belle Rive  

In the SCA, Inc: sustaining member # 33644

 

                                YYY     YYY

meg at tinhat.stonemarche.org      |  YYYYY  |

                                |____n____|

 

 

From: JLEASE at nara.GOV (Jennifer Lease)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: gypsy carts

Date: 7 Nov 1994 09:18:17 -0500

 

Greetings to the bridge!

Gwenfrei ferch Cadfael of Caernarfon wrote:

>wanting to know about

>wooden enclosed cart/carriage with a living and sleeping space as used by

>gypsies

According to the limited research I have done and the extensive research

my tribe leader has done, wooden enclosed carts did not come into use

until well into the 17th or 18th centuries. However, they did use carts to

carry all their possessions.  Only they were more akin to conestoga

wagons, ie. flat bed wagons with tents on them.  I will try to get a hold

of my tribe leader and see if she can come up with some documentation for

you.

As for the term gypsy, it too is either late period or OOP totally.  

Again, based on my limited research, the term comes from the period term

of "Little Egyptian".  When the gypsies enterd Western Europe from the

baltic and eastern european countries, with their outlandish dress,

customs and language, W.E. had no idea who or what hit them.  The gypsies

themselves claimed to be from somewhere called Little Egypt.  There are

documented cases of tribes of Little Egyptians claiming sanctuary because

they were serving penance as punishment for religious "crimes" in their

homeland.  Eventually, the governments of the time began legislating

against the tribes.  When they entered the British Isles in the 1400's

laws against vagrancy etc. were passed to keep them out of towns.  The

term "Little Egyptian" gradually changed to the term gypsy.  The other

period term I ran across was "Zeiguner" or something like that, (my german

is lousy!:-) ) Most modern gypsies perfer the term "Rhom" or "Rhomany" and

in Scotland they are referred to "the Traveling People".

I will do my best to locate the citation of the book(s) that I read for

this information.  It is by no means complete and as the study of gypsies

is young, there are a lot of differing viewpoints and information.  I hope

this helps!

Anna MacKenzie

Barony of the Brights Hills

K. of Atlantia

...sometime member of the Gypsy Tribe of the Winged Wolf...

jlease at nara.gov

 

 

From: JLEASE at nara.GOV (Jennifer Lease)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: gypsy carts and references

Date: 10 Nov 1994 09:22:50 -0500

Organization: The Internet

 

Greetings unto the bridge!

As promised, these are the references that I found at the University of

MD, Baltimore County.  Some I have read, most I have not. (Gee, if I only

had the time to read all that was on my reading list.....)

The Gypsies of Eastern Europe, edited by David Crowe and John Kolstic

w/intro by Ian Hancock  Copyright  1991

The Gypsies by Angus Fraser published in Cambridge MA 1992

Gypsies: An Illustrated History  1986 by Jean-Pierre Liedeois 1986

The Traveler-gypsies by Judith Okely  1983

and for those with a musical bent....

Travellers' Songs from England and Scotland, published in 1977

by Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger

There are many others.  The hard part is finding sources about period

gypsies, several of these books may have more on modern gypsies than

period, but I don't remember which ones. I don't remember who it was who

asked for this information, but if you're interested our tribe has a

newsletter for all interested in gypsies and we are also trying to compile

a list of sources. Send me an email and I'll get you my tribe

leaders'/chroniclers' address.

Hope this helps!

Anna MacKenzie

Tribe of the Winged Wolf

Barony of the Bright Hills

K. of Atlantia

jlease at nara.gov

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: bq676 at torfree.net (Kristine E. Maitland)

Subject: Re: Any 'gypsies' out there?

Organization: Toronto Free-Net

Date: Sun, 3 Sep 1995 05:39:59 GMT

 

Vanyev Btz (vanyevbtz at aol.com) wrote:

: Yes, my romani sister!  I am Vanyev Betzina of Kumapania Kaldaresh,

: The Gypsy King (although if being king, is only king of wooden boxes, so

: is not mattering much).  

 

: If you are having any questions, please E-Mail me in return, and I would

: be glad to share any answers I might have.

 

: I am mundanly a true-blood Rom (Gypsy) as well, so anything you learn

: elsewhere would be a great blessing to me, as I am exploring my heritage.

 

Dearest women of the Rom.  Upon learning of your need for more knowledge,

i thought that the following article may be of assistance:

 

Bill M. Donovan. "Changing Perceptions of Social Deviance: Gypsies in

      Early Modern Portugal and Brazil" in _Journal of Social history_,

      volume 26, number 1 (Fall 1992)

[the article is slightly post-period, however it does discuss gypsies and

the law beginnin in the late 15th, early 16th century]

 

I hope that it proves helpful.

 

In service to the Principality of Ealdormere (and new friends!)

Ines Carmen Maria de Freitas

[Kristine Maitland -- bq676 at freenet.toronto.on.ca]

 

 

From: "'Riff' Beth Marie Mc Curdy" <ook at u.washington.edu>

Warning and a free tip: a lot of SCA-er's have a problem with gypsies

because "we're all supposed to be noble." However, gypsies -were-

presumed noble whenever they could get away with it.

      The first gypsies claimed to be the Christian nobility of Egypt,

who had abandoned their possessions in order to retain their faith when

the Muslims gained power.  They were believed for a good period.

      Linguistic evidence strongly demonstrates that they actually

originated in India, and moved west, migrating through the middle east

into Europe.  There is a good possibility that they originated belly

dancing.

      Reliable period info on gypsies is sadly lacking- the only people

writing about them were the ones who wanted rid of them at all cost.  I

think it was in the fifteenth century that the pogroms against them

really got rolling...

      Because gypsies have remained very secluded and secretive,

cultural "tainting" has been comparatively low, and modern practices may

well reflect medieval practices.

                                    Good luck and have fun.

                                          Tri Be Lith

 

 

From: bj at alpha1.csd.uwm.edu (Barbara Jean Kuehl)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Newbie seeking information on gypsy persona

Date: 1 Oct 1995 16:05:05 GMT

Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee

 

Melaena Grierson (ac359 at freenet.carleton.ca) writes):

>     I'm a newcomer to the SCA and am interested in adopting a gypsy

> persona as I have Romanian ancestors.

 

Me, too.  About a month ago, I posted a question very much like yours,

and I made contact with about 4 or 5 people with gypsy personas,

including our Gypsy King Vanyev Betzenia.

 

> Can anyone give me some ideas on

> what books or sources might be helpful to research my persona?

 

Everyone who wrote to me advised me to search out the books at whatever

libraries are in my area.  I'm in the process of doing that now, but

I've found that information about gypsies is very very sketchy and

mostly written about gypsies in the last century or so. What

historical information I've been able to find is based primarily

on journal entries, literary references, liquistic studies and

other documented accounts of 'Egyptians', 'Bohemians', 'Roms'

or simply 'wandering Indian tribes' reported in particular areas.

 

It appears that the peoples we call Gypsies originally came from

India, probably in the northwestern part.  Sometime before the 10th

century, they migrated east to Persia.  Reports of Gypsies in

places such as Crete, Corfu, Serbia, Bohemia and Walachia began to

appear in the 1300's.  In the 1400's, they were reported in Moldavia,

Hungary and Transylvania as well as in Germany and France. They

lived in tents (gypsy wagons are a recent introduction) and were

often described as dark-skinned magicians, entertainers, smiths,

horsebreakers and other skilled tradeworkers.  

 

In the 1500's, gypsies begin showing up in Northern Europe --

Britain, Scotland, Denmark, Norway, etc. -- although they may

have been there already (it's just that their presence becomes

documented at this time).  During the 1500's to the 1700's in

England, repressive laws were passed against Gypsies, claiming

they were thieves, bewitchers and basic undesirables.  In fact,

when I told some Renaissance fairegoer friends of mine that I

was researching a gypsy persona, they told me that, had I shown

up at a faire in England during Elizabethan times, I would have

been driven off!

 

> I have absolutely zero information or background on the gypsy

cukture...

 

Well, now you have some.  Good luck in your research.

 

                        BJ

 

 

From: bj at alpha1.csd.uwm.edu (Barbara Jean Kuehl)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Newbie seeking information on gypsy persona

Date: 3 Oct 1995 14:59:47 GMT

Organization: Information & Media Technologies, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee

 

When Malaena Grierson (ac359 at FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:

      I'm a newcomer to the SCA and am interested in adopting a gypsy

persona as I have Romanian ancestors.  Can anyone give me some ideas on

what books or sources might be helpful to research my persona?

 

Carolyn Boselli (IVANOR at delphi.com) responded:

Gypsies appeared in Europe post 1600, so are not Medieval/Renaissance.

 

and AElfled (sandradodd at aol.com) added:

American Heritage says they were in Europe in the 14th / 15th century.

OED says they got to England in the early 1600's.   England's the far end

of Europe, and I doubt they crossed all the way from India to England in

just a few years.

 

Perhaps I can shed some light on the appearance of gypsies in Europe.

In the book I am currently reading about gypsies ("Les Tziganes" by

Jean-Paul Clebert, 1961), the author uses private journal entries,

legal documents and other existing historical archives, to outline

the westward movement of the 'little Egyptians' (later known as 'gypsies')

from their presumed homeland in northwestern India.

 

According to Clebert, they advanced from India into Persia sometime

before the 10th Century.  In the 1300's they were officially reported

in Crete (1322), Corfu (1346), Serbia (1348) and the Peloponnese (1378).

In the 1400's, they were officially reported in  Basle (1414), Moldavia,

Hungary and Transylvania (1417), Saxony and Augsburg (1418), France

(1419), Bologna and Rome (1422), Paris (1427), Barcelona (1447),

Wales (1430 or 1440) and Scotland (1447 or 1505) -- the exact year

of their appearances in Wales and Scotland were being contested.

 

In the 1500's, gypsies were reported officially in Russia (1500),

Poland (1509), England (1514), Sweden (1515) and Norway (1540).

I use the word 'officially' in this context because Clebert points

out:

 

      "These dates mark the 'official' appearance of Gypsies;

      a fact which must be emphasized.  It does not mean that

      in reality the Gypsies had not arrived in Europe before

      the authorities thought of mentioning them for the first

      time, before the occurrence of some local event or other

      with which their name was associated."

 

In fact, other authors claim that Gypsies probably made their

way in England in the 1430's, but valid documentation is lacking

in these claims.

 

By the way, the claim that Gypsies originated in India is

based on linguistic analysis of their language.  Although the

Gypsies call themselves 'Rom' and their language is known as

'Romani', the Romani language has nothing in common with the

language known as Romanian (which is a Romance language, derived

from Latin and kin to French, Spanish, Italian, etc.). Romani

been shown to be closely related to groups of languages and

dialects (such as Hindi, Gujarati, Marathi and Cashmiri) still

spoken in India and of the same origin as Sanskrit.

 

Hope this helps.

                        BJ

 

 

From: sandradodd at aol.com (SandraDodd)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Gypsies

Date: 4 Oct 1995 09:49:39 -0400

 

<<      In France it was thought that these same people came from

   Bohemia and thus they were called 'Bohemes'.... [thus began the

   English word "bohemian"]

 

Barbara Carter>>

 

THANKS!  This is the coolest thread for a long time--

 

 

From: IVANOR at delphi.com

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Gypsies

Date: 5 Oct 1995 01:00:32 GMT

 

Quoting sandradodd from a message in rec.org.sca

   >That's even better!    I didn't know whether they had the word come with

   >the people from France or somewhere else or not. What are Gypsies

   >called in other languages?  Spanish is Gitano, I think.

 

In German, Zigeuner.  In South Eastern Europe, variations on Tsiganske.  In

Ireland, Tinkers.  Beyond that ????

 

Carolyn Boselli, Host of Custom Forum 35, SCAdians on Delphi

 

 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

From: bq676 at torfree.net (Kristine E. Maitland)

Subject: Re: Gypsies

Organization: Toronto Free-Net

Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 03:31:19 GMT

 

SandraDodd (sandradodd at aol.com) wrote:

:      I think there is a problem in using the OED as a reference here.  

:      There are Elizabethan laws against dressing or acting "as an

:      Egyptian," which from the descriptions seem to be what we would call

:      'gypsies.'  I suspect that the word "gypsie" came into use as an

:      abreviation of "Egyptian" somewhat later than the actual arrival of

:      the Rom in England.>>

 

: That's even better!    I didn't know whether they had the word come with

: the people from France or somewhere else or not.  What are Gypsies called

: in other languages?  Spanish is Gitano, I think.

 

: AElflaed

 

Yes, AEflaed "gitano" is the Spanish word.  The Portuguese called them

"cigano".  

 

For the record: "Anti-gypsy legislation in Britain goes back to Henry

VIII. The 1530 'Egyptians Act' Banned immigration by all 'Egipcions' and

ordered all those in England to leave the country. Subsequent acts in

the reigns of mary Tudor and Elizabeth I went so far as to provide

capital punishment for gypsy immigrants found in the country more than

one month."  (see Bill M. Donovan's "Chancing perceptions of social

deviance: gypsies in early modern Portugal and Brazil" in _Journal of

Social History_ v 26 #1 (Fall 1992)

 

putting up gypsies in the barn of my inn Rosa Negra

(who do you think brought chickens for my coup?)

Ines Carmen Maria de Freitas

 

 

From: lila at lynx.CO.NZ (Lila Richards)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Gypsies

Date: 6 Oct 1995 00:47:50 -0400

Organization: The Internet

 

AElflaed said:

>What are Gypsies called in other languages?  Spanish is Gitano, I think.

 

In French it's Tsiganes.  According to a book I have, 'The Gypsies', by

Jean-Paul Clebert (pub. Penguin, my edition 1970), the Gitanos are actually

one of the the three main Groups of Gypsies (the others are the Kalderash

and the Manuchs, called Manouches in France), called Gitans in France.

 

The dates Clebert gives for the appearance of Gypsies in Europe are:

 

855?            Byzantium                

1260 (or 1399?) Bohemia                

1322?           Crete

1346            Corfu

1348            Serbia

1378            The Pelopennese, Zagreb

1414            Basle

1417            Transylvania, Moldavia, The Elbe

1418            Saxony, Augsburg

1419            France, Sisteron

1420?           Denmark

1422            Bologna, Rome

1427            Paris

1430 (or 1440?) Wales

1447            Barcelona

1492 (or 1505)  Scotland

1500            Russia

1509            Poland

1515            Sweden

 

He notes that these dates mark the *'official'* appearance of Gypsies, and

doesn't necessarily mean they were not already there.  As far as I can tell,

he doesn't specifically mention a date for their appearance in England, but

if once they'd reached Wales and Scotland, could England be far behind?  And

it occurs to me that if Elizabeth I passed a law against them, they must

have already been noticeably there for a while - enough to make their

presence felt!

 

Caitlin ni Cumhaill.

________________________________________________________________________________

Lila Richards, PO Box 13715, Christchurch, New Zealand.   Email: lila at lynx.co.nz

                

 

From: lila at lynx.CO.NZ (Lila Richards)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Gypsies.

Date: 7 Oct 1995 21:57:18 -0400

Organization: The Internet

 

Carolyn Boselli wrote:

>In Ireland, Tinkers.

 

According to Jean-Paul Clebert in 'The Gypsies' (pub. Penguin), Tinkers (not

just an Irish term, though in Scotland they're called Tinklers) are almost

certainly not true Rom (Gypsies) at all.  The name tinker is related to the

roots 'tik', 'tin'k', and 'tsink', onomatpoeic terms relating the sound of

hammer on anvil, and is thus a generic term for the itinerant smiths and

tinmen of Britain.  They live like Gypsies, and use some Gypsy words, but

are most probably not Gypsies.  They refer to themselves as 'travellers' and

aborigines (!!).  Clebert also says that a lot of Irish who left Ireland

after the famines ended up wandering around Wales, living, like Gypsies,

from tinsmithing, horse dealing, fortune-telling - and housebreaking and

burglary.

 

I bought Clebert's book many years ago (my edition was published in 1970.),

so I don't know whether it's still available.  But Clebert, who was in the

Resistance during WWII, also wrote on the archaeology and prehistory of

Provence, where he lived, as well as:  'Paris insolite,' about the tramps of

Paris; 'La Vie Sauvage', about vagrants; and 'Le Blockhaus', about

imprisoned men.  At the time my book was published, he was apparently

working on a novel dealing with the psychology of a spy. I believe he had

also lived with Gypsies.  The book has some wonderful photographs.

 

Caitlin ni Cumhaill na Cruachan.

________________________________________________________________________________

Lila Richards, PO Box 13715, Christchurch, New Zealand.   Email: lila at lynx.co.nz

 

 

From: bj at alpha1.csd.uwm.edu (Barbara Jean Kuehl)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Gypsies.

Date: 8 Oct 1995 02:20:54 GMT

Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee

 

Caitlin (lila at lynx.CO.NZ (Lila Richards) writes:

> According to Jean-Paul Clebert in 'The Gypsies' (pub. Penguin)

                  [snip all that good information]

 

Out of all the books I've read so far on the subject of gypsies,

Clebert's book is the absolute best.  I recommend it highly for

anyone who wants to learn about the movement and culture of the

gypsies throughout Europe.

 

As for whether or not it is still in print, I can't say. But I

got my copy from the university library, so it is available.

 

                        BJ

 

 

From: ansteorra at eden.com (10/20/95)

To: ansteorra at eden.com

RE>Early Dance

 

>Ah yes, the "gypsies" (that's an exonym, you know.) are an amazing group of

>people. Did you know there are still laws on the books that were

>specifically designed to harrass them? Anyhow, I have a whol lot of

>information on them as a culture (recipes, examples of laws against them,

>etc.) that I will vouch is accurate, Since it's the same info they give the

>UN, and that I was given by one of their delegates. Anyone interested should

>email me, and I'll dig it all out...:)

>

>ps - the term they use for themselves is "Rom" or "Romani". They don't like

>"Gypsy". :)

>

>Cat

 

There is a professor, Dr. Ian Hancock, here in the English department who

is an authority on the Romani culture and the discrimination against them.

He is a founding member of the Romani Anti-Defamation Assn.(?) and makes

regular trips to Eastern Europe.  If anyone is really interested, they

might try to contact him.

 

Catherine

 

[Editor's note: "here" refers to the University of Texas in Austin, TX]

 

 

From: Garick Chamberlin <Garick at vonkopke.demon.co.uk>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Gypsies

Date: Tue, 17 Oct 95 21:05:11 GMT

Organization: Drachenwald

 

sandradodd at aol.com "SandraDodd" writes:

>What are Gypsies called in other languages?  Spanish is Gitano, I think.

>

> AElflaed

 

The German is "Zigeuner." I have no idea what the etimology of that is,

however.

The Arabic is "Ghajer." (spelling conjectural,as Arabic uses a differen

alphabet) This comes from a root word meaning "to scold, uses abusive language,

curse, swear."  Seems the Arabs didn't think much of the Rom.  On the other

hand, another term used for Gypsies in Arabic (though much more rarely) is

"Nawar." This term, which is also used for vagabonds or tramps, comes from a

root word that most often means "to illuminate, or make light," though it also

means "to bloom," and many derivitive words have to do with fire.

--

Viscount Sir Garick von Kopke

 

 

From: Brenda <blhunter at mtholyoke.edu>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Attn: gypsy personas!!!

Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 23:02:39 -0500

Organization: Mount Holyoke College

 

Bre!

 

      I have been in contact with Rebecca Tracy, a representative of the

Gypsy Lore Society.  She will be in the Barony of Bergental, East Kingdom

during January and is delighted at having the opportunity to speak with

interested Scadians.  I am asking for a weekend date and am waiting for

confirmation.

 

      Please contact me directly if you are interested in being on an

e-mailing list regarding this event.  For those unable to attend please

send any queries you want addressed and I will try to get answers for you.

 

      The Gypsy Lore Society has a web site:

            http://metro.turnpike.net/R/rtracy/index.html

 

                        Regards,

                    Augustina Be Arce

 

 

From: DVANARSD at systema.westark.EDU (Dennis VanArsdale)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: travel/caravan wagons

Date: 8 Jan 1996 14:48:00 -0500

Organization: Westark Community College

 

On 6 Jan 1996, Robert Youngs wrote:

> I would be very grateful for any comments, directions, or suggestions

> from the gathered assemblages on the subject of the use and

> construction of 'travelling wagons' or 'caravan wagons' (such as is

> typified by 'gypsy wagons') during period.

>   --- Robert, known as Badger, the Curious ---

RESPONSE:

Having done a chunk of research with much the same intent just a few

months ago, I can tell you what I found:

A. The classic gypsy caravan wagons were actually not built until the

1800s, which puts them out of our period.  They were usually built by

commercial carriage shops for the gypsies, since they took a lot of

woodworking and other equipment.  But, boy, they do look neat!

B. The best books I found were English, and I got a look at some of

them through interlibrary loan.  BTW - ask your library to search

OCLC (an international database) or First Search (an easy-access

version) for subjects like this.

I can't guarantee you can still borrow these, but try: The English

gypsy caravan: its origins, builders, technology, and conservation,

by C.M. Ward-Jackson, 2nd edition 1986, David & Charles (OCLC  

15109447, if your library wants to find it fast); or Gypsy caravans:

their history and restoration, by E. Alan Jones, Signs-Malton, 1981

(OCLC 16549099); or  Discovering horse-drawn caravans, by Donald John

Smith, Shire publications, 1981 (OCLC 8778833).

As I said, this all indicates that the fancy models we've seen in

movies are OOP.  Knowing Fine Woodworking, if an article covered any

of this, it may be a little thin on details, but these books cover

the subject pretty well, and some have color photos if you want to

check the paint schemes.

C. I tried something of this using my 4x8 trailer, but went more with a

late period plaster-wall-with-wood-lath look, and topped it with a

curved roof with fancy end caps and a scalloped edging. The hardest

part was building it in pieces one person could handle, since it all

had to come apart and be stored, and travel only partly assembled

(less wind resistance!).  The roof was in three sections, with the

rear section able to slide back and refasten so that a porch was

created.  I'd suggest you figure out what size trailer you can pull

easily (with present and future vehicles!) and start getting

creative based on that chassis.  Just remember that road travel

shakes everything loose if it can, so fasten everything with screws

and bolts - nails are not dependable.

 

Hope this helps!  -- Denys de Houtbewerker (Denys the Woodworker),

Shire of Smythkepe, Region of Gleann Abhain, Kingdom of Meridies.

 

 

From: nicolic at aol.com (Nicoli C)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Info about gyspies

Date: 6 Feb 1996 14:01:23 -0500

Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)

 

Two books that give information of the Gypsy Culture Historicly are:

 

   The Gypsies by Jean-Paul Clebert, translated by Charles Duff

   Gypsy Demons and Divinities by Elwood B. Trigg

 

The unfortuante thing is that both of these books, I beleive, are out of

print.  The best chance is local libraries.  WHen searching, remember that

the name Gypsies is spelled many different ways.  Gypsies Gipsies, etc.

 

Much luck to you all.

         -Radu The Red, Gypsy at Large

 

 

From: bj at alpha1.csd.uwm.edu (Barbara Jean Kuehl)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Gypsy names

Date: 8 Mar 1996 23:36:22 GMT

Organization: Information & Media Technologies, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee

 

Well, I finally finished reading "The Gypsies" by Jean-Paul

Clebert, an excellent source of information regarding the

movement and culture of the little Egyptians as they made

their way from their origin in India and spread west across

Europe and northern Africa.

 

Because a number of people have recently expressed an interest

in devising a gypsy persona and have asked questions about

gypsy names, I thought you might like to know that Clebert

talks a little about how the gypsies named themselves.

 

Each gypsy had three names.  The first was a secret name

whispered into the baby's ear shortly after birth and again

when the child reached puberty but never spoken aloud at

any other time and never told to anyone else.  The second

was a gypsy name, used between gypsies only.  The third was

a local name, usually chosen to reflect the general names

being given to nongypsies in the country where the gypsy

resided.  This was the name the gypsy was to use publically,

with a gadje (nongypsy), or for on official documents.

 

Clebert gives no suggestion of what a gypsy's secret name

might be.  Their public name would be just like a gadje's

name, i.e., George Maldonnis, Pierre Gabriel, Marie Valliene,

or Michael Smith.  As for their gypsy name, Clebert says

that men liked names such as Frinkelo, Fero, Yakali, Miya,

Vaya, Yerko, Chuvula, Ilika and Terkari, while women liked

such names as Dunicha, Tereina, Malilini, Saviya, Oraga,

Tekla, Orka and Savina.

 

                        BJ

 

 

From: "Perkins" <lwperkins at snip.net>

Subject: Re: Gypsies

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Date: 25 Mar 97 03:06:29 GMT

 

> Stefan le rous wrote: There was a very good class taught at this last Pennsic,

> Pennsic  XXV on Gypsies and Gypsie history. Perhaps someone here will know the

> name of the lady who was teaching this course since she would be another

> good source for information.

 

That would be Lady Keja Ruvni, mka Candy Miesen.  For gypsy questions write

her at wingedwolf at juno.com.  She can't read the rialto because she has no

internet access.. yet. She's the head of an informal extended family of

gypsies called Tribe Winged Wolf, and a gracious and generous correspondent

to people looking for gypsy info.

--Ester

 

 

Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 22:01:40 -0600

From: cauldron at net1plus.com

Subject: Re: Gypsies

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

 

vrose at indy.net (Valerie Rose) wrote:

>    In my seemingly never ending quest for a possible new persona for

> myself, and possibly my SO (*if* I can get him to change his), it was

> pointed out to me that Gypsy might be fun.......and also allow me to still

> possibly be from those areas of Europe that I was interested in at the

> same time.

>    So, if you have any suggestions, information, etc. about Gypsies, and

> Gypsies in the SCA, I would be very grateful if you would let me know

> about them. I am talking with one very nice lady who runs a Gypsy

> household right now, via email, and would like to hear about more, from

> others. I am also reading several books that I got from my local library

> about Gypsies, and the more I read the more interested I become.

 

Milady,

 

I have some Romany in my mundane background (my mundane last name is Rom,

but I'm definitely a gaje) and I had a Romany persona for five years,

before switching to the one I currently hold, and it had its pros and

cons. Let me list a few points to consider.

 

1. First, the term "Gypsy" is a gaje term (gaje being the Rom word for

any non-gypsy, said in the same contemptuous way as "mundane); the proper

term is Rom, or Romany for the entire people or the language. To say that

Gypsies are clannish is the understatement of the millenia. If you are

Rom, it's built into your culture to distrust *any* Gaje, male or female.

You can hang around them enough to swindle them, steal from them, or sell

them something, but that's all. If you consort with the gaje too often,

you run the risk of becoming "marhime" or outcast. On a persona level,

this means being a Rom in SCA restricts your persona from making close

friends who are gaje, and also helping at events, or getting awards, etc.

A real Rom wouldn't do these things. I had a whole "kumpania" of Rom to

hang out with and jeer at the gaje, so I wasn't lonely, but unless you're

in the same situation, you might think twice.

 

2. You want to be a Rom? Where and when? The "where" will determine the

"when". If it's Europe, you'll have a Renaissance persona. The Rom left

India in about A.D. 700's, and wandered through the Middle East for some

centuries, coming to the gates of Rome in - I think - mid-15th century.

Check your books, they'll tell you about their crazy story of how they

were Christ's nailmakers, and this got them into Rome until their

behavior got them thrown out. They came into England during the time of

Queen Elizabeth, and were there less than a century before James threw

them out. (On a fun disguised romp with his men-at-arms, he came on to a

Rom woman, and she "came crack over his head with a bottle", after which

he hounded them all out of England and Scotland.) Quite a few took refuge

in the mountains of Wales and in Ireland, or went back to the Continent.

It would be another century before they could legally enter the country.

 

>    Also, did anyone out there see the recent TNT version of "The Hunchback

> Of Notre Dame"? I *LOVED* Salma Hayek's outfit as Esmerelda. I know that

> the colors were too bright to be period, and the almost transparent fabric

> that they used for her blouse was not period either. But, I liked the

> *style* of the outfit, the *design*. Would the design be ok? How about the

> design of the blouse? The shorter sleeves, with the ties? I am no expert,

> but I liked the style of that blouse very much. Does anyone have

> suggestions of fabric types, patterns, etc?

 

I haven't seen the one you referring to, but I can tell you that what

Romany women wore was generally ragged, cast-off versions of what

everyone else around them wore, since they were usually getting the

cast-off clothing of the gaje. Their trademarks, brought with the from

the mideast, were a love of bright colors (when they could get them),

bright fringed scarves for head and hips, rings in their ears (men,

women, and children), as many strings of cheap beads as they could

muster, low necklines and long skirts for women (they didn't consider

cleavage to be immodest, but don't you dare show leg!) and general

poverty.

 

Which brings us to point 3: Rom women made money either by

fortunetelling, which wasn't allowed for men, begging, or selling small

trifles such as homemade baskets and clothespins. Rom men were usually

metalworkers, tinkers, traders, or horsebreeders. Rom children were

taught to beg and steal from the gaje at a young age. The Romany have a

rather interesting morality; they believe that the gaje were put here on

earth to support them, and therefore it's all right to steal from them. I

changed personas when my daughter began to get old enough to figure this

out, and wanted to know if she could start stealing from the other

SCAdians, since, after all, it was in period. (She was already a

consummate beggar.) At this point I decided the whole family needed a

change of persona!

 

Choosing a Romany persona can be a lot of fun - or as restrictive as

being a monk, in its own way! My advice is to do a *lot* of research (and

not from movies, TV, romance novels, etc.!) before you leap into it. I'd

be glad to help you with whatever questions you have; I still have a

good-sized library of books from when I was researching my genealogy.

 

                                            Devlesa avilan,

 

                                               Hauptmann Julian Ranulf

                                                 (mundanely Raven Kaldera

                                      who still remembers a little Romany)

 

 

From: rowenstuffer at earthlink.net (Rowen Stuffer)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Gaelic/Irish word for gypsy

Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 01:05:37 GMT

 

> > I am Russian Gypsy story-teller,

 

> "Gypsie" was not what the Gypsies called themselves. And sometimes

> those you might think of as Gypsies were not Gypsies at all.

> My files can be found at:

> http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/rialto/rialto.html

 

Greetings, Stefan, and well met!

 

Thanks for the quick reply. Doesn't help quite a lot, however. I am

very familiar with your archives, and wish (on a side note) to throw

out a *HUGE* HUHZAH(s) and VIVAT(s) for your efforts. Truly, they have

already been a help to me and, I'm sure, to many others.. Back to the

main track...

 

No, really, I've researched an Eastern Europe gypsy persona. If you or

anyone else following this, are interested, an excellent source is

"The Gypsies of Eastern Europe", edited by David Crowe and John

Kolstic, C.1991. It traces the lives of the Rom from their entrance

into this part of the world.

 

I play Romany of full blood. While we speak English as a common

tongue, I do not yet speak Gaelic, being new to her isles and milady

Siobhan would not know Rom, since she is gaje. Still, we are young, we

are in love, and wondered what "gypsy" would translate to, a phase she

would drop in her native tongue as an affectionate term. Mayhap there

is no translation, but we were curious.

 

Ever grateful,

Tzigan

 

 

From: "Maureen S. O'Brien" <mobrien at dnaco.net>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Gaelic/Irish word for gypsy

Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 00:34:33 -0800

Organization: Dayton Network Access Company

 

Rowen Stuffer wrote:

> I play Romany of full blood. While we speak English as a common

> tongue, I do not yet speak Gaelic, being new to her isles and milady

> Siobhan would not know Rom, since she is gaje. Still, we are young, we

> are in love, and wondered what "gypsy" would translate to, a phase she

> would drop in her native tongue as an affectionate term. Mayhap there

> is no translation, but we were curious.

 

giofo/g (the slash is supposed to be an accent mark over the second o)

is the Modern Irish word for 'gypsy'.  It would seem to be derived from

English 'gypsy' (the giof part), with a suffix (o/g means young) that's

used as a diminutive or affectionate ending, or at least tends to make

a lot of Irish words longer.

 

I can't guess how old this word is, so I won't.  I don't know if there

were Rom in Ireland or not (though I'd be surprised if there weren't!).

But it seems reasonable that Irish people would know about gypsies, if

only by reputation, and have a word for them.  And if somebody else

knows more about this than me, I'd like to hear about it.

 

 

From: scott at math.csuohio.edu (Brian M. Scott)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Gaelic/Irish word for gypsy

Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 01:30:56 GMT

Organization: Cleveland State University

 

On Tue, 01 Apr 1997 00:34:33 -0800, "Maureen S. O'Brien"

<mobrien at dnaco.net> wrote:

 

[snip]

 

>giofo/g (the slash is supposed to be an accent mark over the second o)

>is the Modern Irish word for 'gypsy'.

 

There's also a variant <giobo/g>.  If these are derived from the

English term, which (in the form <gypcian>) seems to appear in the

16th c., then the Irish word is likely to be essentially modern.

However, I doubt that that's the origin.  It seems phonetically

unlikely, and <giobo/g> at least looks as if it may be related to

<giob> 'a tail, a scrap, a bit' and many other words beginning with

<giob-> and having related meanings.  For instance, a <gioblacha/n> is

'a ragged, unkempt person; a beggar'.

 

Talan Gwynek

 

 

From: G.P.Collis at liverpool.ac.UK (gpcollis)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Announcement: Gypsy Collections webpage

Date: 2 Apr 1997 03:27:24 -0500

 

The Gypsy Collections at the University of Liverpool now have webpages at:

       http://www.liv.ac.uk/Library/special/gypsy/intro.htm

In the near future this will include a search engine for the Collections' catalogues and indexes.

 

Hope this is of interest!

Paddy Collis gpcollis at liv.ac.uk

Project Assistant, Gypsy Collections

University of Liverpool Special Collections & Archives

 

 

From: gedney1 at iconn.net (brandu)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Gaelic/Irish word for gypsy

Date: 7 Apr 1997 02:58:23 GMT

 

scott at math.csuohio.edu (Brian M. Scott) wrote:

 

> On Tue, 01 Apr 1997 00:34:33 -0800, "Maureen S. O'Brien"

> <mobrien at dnaco.net> wrote:

>

> [snip]

>

> >giofo/g (the slash is supposed to be an accent mark over the second o)

> >is the Modern Irish word for 'gypsy'.

[snip snip]

>

> Talan Gwynek

 

Why not use the gaelic for "the travelling people"?

My mother says this is what her family called the "Gypsies" in her fathers

native Galway

 

 

From: kkozmins at mtholyoke.edu (Kim C Kozminski)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Gaelic/Irish word for gypsy

Date: 8 Apr 1997 22:49:04 GMT

Organization: Mount Holyoke College

 

        I happen to have a book on Irish Tinkers on my shelf,the author

is Janine Weidel and Martina O'Fearadhaigh.  The foreward mentions that

some historians can date "Travelers"(non-Romany Irish "Gypsys")as far

back as the early Celts, and almost certainly before the twelfth

century.  These early travelers were metal-worker (specifically

rivet-makers) called in Gaelic "Tuath Semon".

        Mistress Roen

 

 

Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 08:20:00 -0500 (CDT)

To: ansteorra at eden.com

From: nweders at mail.utexas.edu (ND Wederstrandt)

Subject: Re: gypsies

 

>I've  heard that they are a very " private" people, that doesn't really like

>being photographed,

>And I wonder how to act and approach them,and that kind of practical things..

>And do you know, who I maybe can contact, an organization or whatever, that

>can help me to get in touch with them?

 

I've been fascinated with gypsies since I was a little kid, so here's what

little I know.

 

Yes they are an extremely private people.  In eastern Europe, they

are mostly treated as non-people.  They are distrustful and I don't blame

them.

 

A good recent book that has just come out is called "Bury Me Standing".  I

can get the name of the author and publisher if need be.  There is also a

world renown authority on the Rom at University of Texas here in Austin

where I work.  His name is Dr. Ian Hancock, his e-mail address is

xulaj at mail.utexas.edu.  He is of English Traveler or Rom descent. I

recommend you read the book and then maybe contact Dr. Hancock.  The woman

who wrote the book spent a considerable amount of time researching and

making contacts.

 

Culturally, the Rom are very different from western non-Rom

culture.  They have distinct health and cleanliness taboos, and have strong

male and female relationships.  "A Gift" which might be suitable would be

cigarettes or cigarette lighters.  But those are good almost anywhere.

 

N.D. Wederstrandt

 

 

From: Wayne Anderson <nospamwander at directcon.net>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Gypsie Garb help!

Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 12:46:13 -0800

Organization: Global Valley Internet, Sacramento

 

Sorry, I didn't see the original post, so I don't know what era you're

interested in.  If it's late period, there are several 16th century

paintings of gypsy fortune tellers that show them wearing high-necked

shifts (one has blackwork around the neck and wrist bands) with a loose

long garment that appears to be a large rectangle worn under one arm and

fastenened with a brooch at the opposite shoulder.  A cloth turban-type

headress is also worn.

 

Sorry I can't give you the references, all my books are packed till I

get bookshelves made. Try looking for coffee table books on fortune

telling or gypsies.

 

Maudeleyn of Bryn Aur

 

 

Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 19:58:52 -0500

From: Rowen Stuffer <rowenstuffer at earthlink.net>

To: "Mark S. Harris" <markh at risc.sps.mot.com>

Subject: Re: Gaelic/Irish word for gypsy

 

> > I am Russian Gypsy story-teller,

 

> "Gypsie" was not what the Gypsies called themselves. And sometimes

> those you might think of as Gypsies were not Gypsies at all.

 

Greetings, Stefan, and well met!

 

Thanks for the quick reply. Doesn't help quite a lot, however. I am very

familiar with your archives, and wish (on a side note) to throw out a

*HUGE* HUHZAH and VIVAT for your efforts. Truly, they have already been

a help to me. Back to the main track...

 

No, really, I've researched an Eastern Europe gypsy persona. If you or

anyone else following this are interested, an excellent source is "The

Gypsies of Eastern Europe", edited by David Crowe and John Kolstic,

C.1991. It traces the lives of the Rom from their entrance into this

part of the world.

 

I play Romany of full blood. While we speak English as a common tongue,

I do not yet speak Gaelic, being new to her isles and milady Siobhan

would not know Rom, since she is gaje. Still, we are young, we are in

love, and wondered what "gypsy" would translate to, a phase she would

drop in her native tongue as an affectionate term. Mayhap there is no

translation, but we were curious.

 

Tzigan

--

Rowen Stuffer

 

 

From: lesterw at mindspring.com (Lester Williams)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Polish Rom (Gypsy)

Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 23:15:21 GMT

 

nickoftym at aol.com (Nickof tym) wrote:

>I'm looking for some information on the costumes of the Gypsies during

>the 1400's-1500's, specifically those in Poland.

>

>Rafal

 

You may want to try "The Gypsies" by Angus Fraser.  I have only

skimmed the book but there appeared to be lots of stuff about European

Gypsies.

 

Also  try the webpage www.geocities.com/Paris/5121/patrin.htm

This is the best page on the history of the Gypsies that I have seen.

There is an extensive bibliography as well.

 

Blodwen, Tribe Zareefat

 

 

From: Wayne Anderson <nospamwander at directcon.net>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Gypsie Garb help!

Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 12:46:13 -0800

Organization: Global Valley Internet, Sacramento

 

Sorry, I didn't see the original post, so I don't know what era you're

interested in.  If it's late period, there are several 16th century

paintings of gypsy fortune tellers that show them wearing high-necked

shifts (one has blackwork around the neck and wrist bands) with a loose

long garment that appears to be a large rectangle worn under one arm and

fastenened with a brooch at the opposite shoulder.  A cloth turban-type

headress is also worn.

 

Sorry I can't give you the references, all my books are packed till I

get bookshelves made. Try looking for coffee table books on fortune

telling or gypsies.

 

Maudeleyn of Bryn Aur

 

 

From: lesterw at mindspring.com (Lester Williams)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Polish Rom (Gypsy)

Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 23:15:21 GMT

 

nickoftym at aol.com (Nickof tym) wrote:

>I'm looking for some information on the costumes of the Gypsies during the

>1400's-1500's, specifically those in Poland.

>

>Rafal

 

You may want to try "The Gypsies" by Angus Fraser.  I have only

skimmed the book but there appeared to be lots of stuff about European

Gypsies.

 

Also  try the webpage www.geocities.com/Paris/5121/patrin.htm

This is the best page on the history of the Gypsies that I have seen.

There is an extensive bibliography as well.

 

Blodwen, Tribe Zareefat

 

 

From: "AliQat" <spam at ix.netcom.com>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: Persona help/gypsy question

Date: 18 Dec 1999 21:29:26 GMT

Organization: Gray Owl Ltd.

 

RingMaster ...... <RingMaster16 at webtv.net> wrote:

> I am brand new to SCA and I was wanting to take the persona of a gypsy

> thief who was abandoned by his caravan and ended up in Calontir.  If

> anyone has info on gypsy fashions of the time or anything, please help

> me!!!!!  I also need to think up a good name.  Thanks

 

A friend gave me a book for Christmas last year that you might find useful.

It's called "A History of the Gypsies of Eastern Europe and Russia".  The

Author is David M. Crowe, published by St. Martin's Griffin, 175 Fifth

Ave., New York, NY, 10010.  Copyright is 1994 & 1996.

 

The book covers "the life, history, and culture of the Gypsie, or Roma from

their early appearances in the regin during the middle ages until the

present."  It only has one photo, but the narrative is pretty good (I

haven't read it through yet.)  I would imagine you could get it through

Amazon.com.

 

 

From: <hrjones at socrates.berkeley.edu>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: gypsys

Date: 6 Jun 2000 03:21:35 GMT

Organization: University of California at Berkeley

 

Katie Morton <purplekatie at cheerful.com> wrote:

:         I am intrested in the garb that both sexes would have worn, roughly

: around the 1400-1600 (I belive the 15th centuary is when the gypsys

: started roaming).  Any and all books, websites and, the treasure chest,

: so to speak, PAINTINGS with gypsys in them!

 

DeMarly, Diana.  "The Modification of Gipsy Dress in ARt, 1500-1650" in

Costume: The Journal of the Costume Society; 23(1989):54-63.

 

It's the only thing I've ever run across specifically on the topic.

 

Tangwystyl

*********************************************************

Heather Rose Jones         hrjones at socrates.berkeley.edu

**********************************************************

 

 

Subject: Re: gypsys

From: HrMortcia <hrmortciaNOhrSPAM at yahoo.com.invalid>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 07:38:47 -0700

 

http://www.geocities.com/Paris/5121/index.html

http://dmoz.org/Society/Ethnicity/Romani/

 

the first link to "The Patrin" has a timeline.  a note: all the

research i did indicated just what you have perviously noted that

the "gypsy" people wore clothign very similar to the rest of

society but that women  were required to cover their heads.  The

Patrin has a lot of interesting reading about culture and

religious beliefs which gives more clues to dress. It seems that

a rgeat deal of the concept of a "gypsy" is in fact romanticized

*suprise* 8) happy hunting!

 

 

From: "Dionisia" <sthomas at autovat.com>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: gypsys

Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 09:37:10 -0700

 

For all things Middle Eastern, Gypsy, and Oriental, check out

http://www.al-mustarib.org/. There is a great collection of links that

should take you in circles around the web to find lots of info.  There is

also a ME mailing list (which at times moves to/encompasses gypsy personas)

list you can sign onto there that would link you to lots of wonderful people

with a wealth of information.  The mailing list tends to hover around ME

Dance, but a lot of naming, persona, costuming discussions occur there as

well!

Hope this helps a little,

Dioinisia

 

 

Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 16:46:34 -0500

From: "Katrina O'Keefe" <katrina at unreachable.com>

To: bryn-gwlad at ansteorra.org

Subject: Re: BG - Costume resources??

 

Brad S wrote:

>   I was wondering if someone could help me. I am building several costumes for >an event that requires several gypsy costumes. I need them to be as period as >possible and am having trouble finding info on what all that would entail.

> Pitney

 

As a gypsy (with an eye for period wear) I can make some small recommendations. Anything a local lower or middle class person for the time and area you are in is perfect. Then take a look at the colors. Bright primary colors are preferred. If you have the time middle eastern and Indian style embroidering and bells work well added on including the little sewn-on mirrors (I forget what it's called off the top of my head). You can actually get those

in iron-on and trim now at most Hancock fabrics. Use ribbon instead of lace at cuffs and collars and have fun with it. Mostly, just think that these clothes may have been the only all season wear for a person constantly on the move. I cut my sleeves less baggy and my hems just a bit higher then what's recommended. If you have any other questions please e-mail me at

katrina at unreachable.com

 

Ldy Catalina Ana de Salamanca

 

 

Date: Wed, 21 Jun 2000 18:02:31 -0500

To: bryn-gwlad at ansteorra.org

From: "N.D. Wederstrandt" <nweders at mail.utexas.edu>

Subject: Re: BG - Costume resources??

 

>As a gypsy (with an eye for period wear) I can make some small

>recommendations. Anything a local lower or middle class person for the

>time and area you are in is perfect. Then take a look at the colors.

>Bright primary colors are preferred. If you have the time middle eastern

>and Indian style embroidering and bells work well added on including the

>little sewn-on mirrors (I forget what it's called off the top of my head).

>You can actually get those

>in iron-on and trim now at most Hancock fabrics. Use ribbon instead of

>lace at cuffs and collars and have fun with it. Mostly, just think that

>these clothes may have been the only all season wear for a person

>constantly on the move. I cut my sleeves less baggy and my hems just a bit

>higher then what's recommended. If you have any other questions please

>e-mail me at

>katrina at unreachablecom

 

I would suggest a book called "Bury Me Standing"  by Isabel Fonesca. It has

drawing of what period gypsy costumes probably looked like.  They don't

really look like carmen at al with bright colors and head scarves. That is

a more recent invention.  If you're trying to achieve a fantasy gypsy

outfit thoogh go for it-- the bright colors and such are fine.  Those are

more in keeping with the Spanish Gypsies.  The English tinkers are very

different as are the Eastern European gypsies.  I was very surprised at

what period gypsies look like.  It's very different from what I imagined.

 

Clare

 

 

Subject: Re: ANST - Gpysy stuff names more if you want it

Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2000 11:46:41 -0500

From: jonwillowpel at juno.com

To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org

 

Along with these names there is a cook book of Gypsy foods. If you want a

copy write me.

Willow

 

> These names are from the Gypsy-English Dictionary (Kaldarash dialect) edited

> by L.N. Cherenkov, published by Moscow Russky Yazyi publishers, 1990

>

> This one is more women's names, men's will be a seperate post.

> Anelka, Anuaka, Armanka, Babina, Bayana, Belka,

> Bena, Bica, Bilya, Bina, Binuca, Birka, Bizuca

> Bota, Botana, Boyala, Bresa, Briya, Buna, Burgulya

> Cini, Cora, Cura, Camba, Cernyavka, Cilyana, Cilyanka

> Dana, Danira, Darka, Dena, Diamanta, Diduka, Dika

> Dilinka, Dina, Domka, Donya, Draga, Duda, Dudarka

> Dulca, Dundya, Dyana, Dyolbana, Dyombala

> Dyula, Feastra, Gana, Gafa, Gafica, Gaftona, Grinza, Guda

> Kali, Kapica, Kata, Katarina, Kati, Keza, Kica, Kokana

> Kolombina, Krizma, Krizmarica, Kruca, Kumbriya, Kuna

> Lina, Loli, Loyzi, Loza, Luga, Lukreciya, Lula, Luludi

> Luna, Lutka, Luska, Luza, Lyalya, Lyanka, Lyuka

> Madoka, Mala, Malaska, Malika, Malyoxa, Mandica

> Manevra, Mara, Marca, Mardyola, Marga, Margayka

> Margoska, Maruca, Marulya, Matora, Matryona, Matuska

> Mileva, Mina, Miyula, Mica, Morana, Mugulya, Murzatka

> Muyara, Mentanya, Meriya, Nataliya

> Papin, Papina, Papus, Paralya, Parastiva, Patrina

> Pavia, Pavlena, Persi, Pika, Pitoc, Piyada, Pucuranka

> Puna, Pupi, Putya, Peperuga, Persuda, Pevuna

> Phabay, Rayka, Roseriya, Rufa, Rupinka, Rupla, Ruza

> Sabina, Saveta, Sima, Sofa, Solomiya, Sonya, Staya

> Stura, Senuca, Sana, Seryadya, Seyica, Taliya, Terenka

> Tereza, Terka, Teza, Tinka, Vandya, Vena, Vota, Volya

> Volyana, Voronka, Voronsana, Vorza, Vorzana, Vorzanka

> Xilya, Xilyka, Yana, Yeva, Yela, Yelena, Yordana

> Yoza, Yula, Yulyca, Zaga, Zamba, Zambila, Zamfira

> Zana, Zanda, Zizya, Zofinya, Zolfina, Zorpina, Zuzana

> Zuzi, Zuzulya, Zofi, Zoska, Zuza

 

 

From: Donna Ford <evfemia at mail.com>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Subject: Re: gypsy?????

Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 22:53:25 -0500

 

Lynette wrote:

> I'd like to be a gypsy, anyone know where I can find info on dress?

> I am very new , hopefully soon,I will learn where to look for ideas......

> untill then I could use some help, please....:)

> Lynette

 

There is an sca list for those with gypsy persona.  You can subscribe to

it at SCA_Gypsy-subscribe at egroups.com and post messages at

SCA_Gypsy at egroups.com

--

evfemia

Barony of Iron Mountain, Meridies

 

<the end>



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