Gypsies-msg - 8/2/01
Gypsy culture. Also called Rom or Romani.
NOTE: See also these files: East-Eur-msg, Hungary-msg, Europe-msg, jewelry-msg, cl-EastEur-msg, cl-Spain-msg, carts-msg.
************************************************************************
NOTICE -
This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org
I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.
Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).
Thank you,
Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
************************************************************************
From: meg at tinhat.stonemarche.org (meg)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: gypsies
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 94 01:16:48 EST
Organization: Stonemarche Network Co-op
Greetings from Megan, who happens to have more than a passing interest in
Gypsy history. Here follows a much abreviated overview:
The Gypsies do NOT come from Egypt, they come from India. IN
In the Life of George Mtharsmindel of Mount Athos, written in the
mid-11th century, there is mention of Asincan people who were described
as well known magicians and rogues. In 1322, Simon Simeonis describes
similar people living in Crete. In around 1340, a priest of Cologne
describes a people he refers to as Mandapolos, who had a unique language.
In 1350 Ludolphus of Sudheim also mentions them. Note that the name
Mandapolos is possibly a corruption of the Greek word Mantipolos, mening
fortune teller. In 1386, the feudum Acinganorum are said to live on
Corfu. This word is the prototype of the German Zigeuner, the Italian
Zingaro, and the French Tsigane, Polish Cygan. In 1384, forty families
were documented as living at the foot of the Carpathians who were called
Acigani vel Cygani. In 1416, they were noted in Bohemia. In 1416, a
chronicler described a man called Emaus from Egypt, who appeared at
Kronstadt in Transylvania together with 220 followers. On August 30,
1417, the Gypsies reacahed Zurich, Magdeburg and Lubeck, and in 1418
"poor people from Little Egypt" came to Strasbourg and Frankfurt. On
Oct.1, 1419 there were seen at Sisteron in Provence, on November 1 at
Augsburg, in 1420 "Master Andreas, the Prince of Little Egypt" came to
Deventer in Holland with his followers and 40 horses. "Andrea, Duke of
Egypt" rested on July 18 1422 at Bologna before going on via Forli to
Rome for an audience with the Pope. In 1422 a large horde with 50 horses
led by one Michael arrives at Basle, before going on to Italy, Alsace and
France.(all this is loosely written from The Gypsies in Poland, by Jerzy
Ficowski, Interpress Publishers.)
The Gypsy wagons are a very recent development, dating from the late 18th
early 19th century. Befoe that, they travelled by foot and horseback,
setting up tents by night.
Modern Gypsies hold an annual convention/conference in France each
summer. A friend of mine from Belur, Tamil Nadu, India, is a delegate to
this convention. He has done extensive research into the linguistic
trends of their migrations. The Gypsy Language was first noted as being
similar to Indian languages in 1763, but it wasn't until 1927 that
R>L>Turner linked the language with the Dardic and Kafir tribes.
There is a good bit of information extant about Gypsies before 1650. Not
too much is translated ito English, unfortunately, but there are some
good ppictures.
It would be refreshing and interesting to see some authentic Gypsies in
the SCA. Their society and culture is complex and fascinating, strictly
regimented and circumscribed.
Megan
PS here's Gypsy riddle...The more you cut off it, the bigger it gets.
Answer: a hole.
==
In 1994: Linda Anfuso
In the Current Middle Ages: Megan ni Laine de Belle Rive
In the SCA, Inc: sustaining member # 33644
YYY YYY
meg at tinhat.stonemarche.org | YYYYY |
|____n____|
From: JLEASE at nara.GOV (Jennifer Lease)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: gypsy carts
Date: 7 Nov 1994 09:18:17 -0500
Greetings to the bridge!
Gwenfrei ferch Cadfael of Caernarfon wrote:
>wanting to know about
>wooden enclosed cart/carriage with a living and sleeping space as used by
>gypsies
According to the limited research I have done and the extensive research
my tribe leader has done, wooden enclosed carts did not come into use
until well into the 17th or 18th centuries. However, they did use carts to
carry all their possessions. Only they were more akin to conestoga
wagons, ie. flat bed wagons with tents on them. I will try to get a hold
of my tribe leader and see if she can come up with some documentation for
you.
As for the term gypsy, it too is either late period or OOP totally.
Again, based on my limited research, the term comes from the period term
of "Little Egyptian". When the gypsies enterd Western Europe from the
baltic and eastern european countries, with their outlandish dress,
customs and language, W.E. had no idea who or what hit them. The gypsies
themselves claimed to be from somewhere called Little Egypt. There are
documented cases of tribes of Little Egyptians claiming sanctuary because
they were serving penance as punishment for religious "crimes" in their
homeland. Eventually, the governments of the time began legislating
against the tribes. When they entered the British Isles in the 1400's
laws against vagrancy etc. were passed to keep them out of towns. The
term "Little Egyptian" gradually changed to the term gypsy. The other
period term I ran across was "Zeiguner" or something like that, (my german
is lousy!:-) ) Most modern gypsies perfer the term "Rhom" or "Rhomany" and
in Scotland they are referred to "the Traveling People".
I will do my best to locate the citation of the book(s) that I read for
this information. It is by no means complete and as the study of gypsies
is young, there are a lot of differing viewpoints and information. I hope
this helps!
Anna MacKenzie
Barony of the Brights Hills
K. of Atlantia
...sometime member of the Gypsy Tribe of the Winged Wolf...
jlease at nara.gov
From: JLEASE at nara.GOV (Jennifer Lease)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: gypsy carts and references
Date: 10 Nov 1994 09:22:50 -0500
Organization: The Internet
Greetings unto the bridge!
As promised, these are the references that I found at the University of
MD, Baltimore County. Some I have read, most I have not. (Gee, if I only
had the time to read all that was on my reading list.....)
The Gypsies of Eastern Europe, edited by David Crowe and John Kolstic
w/intro by Ian Hancock Copyright 1991
The Gypsies by Angus Fraser published in Cambridge MA 1992
Gypsies: An Illustrated History 1986 by Jean-Pierre Liedeois 1986
The Traveler-gypsies by Judith Okely 1983
and for those with a musical bent....
Travellers' Songs from England and Scotland, published in 1977
by Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger
There are many others. The hard part is finding sources about period
gypsies, several of these books may have more on modern gypsies than
period, but I don't remember which ones. I don't remember who it was who
asked for this information, but if you're interested our tribe has a
newsletter for all interested in gypsies and we are also trying to compile
a list of sources. Send me an email and I'll get you my tribe
leaders'/chroniclers' address.
Hope this helps!
Anna MacKenzie
Tribe of the Winged Wolf
Barony of the Bright Hills
K. of Atlantia
jlease at nara.gov
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: bq676 at torfree.net (Kristine E. Maitland)
Subject: Re: Any 'gypsies' out there?
Organization: Toronto Free-Net
Date: Sun, 3 Sep 1995 05:39:59 GMT
Vanyev Btz (vanyevbtz at aol.com) wrote:
: Yes, my romani sister! I am Vanyev Betzina of Kumapania Kaldaresh,
: The Gypsy King (although if being king, is only king of wooden boxes, so
: is not mattering much).
: If you are having any questions, please E-Mail me in return, and I would
: be glad to share any answers I might have.
: I am mundanly a true-blood Rom (Gypsy) as well, so anything you learn
: elsewhere would be a great blessing to me, as I am exploring my heritage.
Dearest women of the Rom. Upon learning of your need for more knowledge,
i thought that the following article may be of assistance:
Bill M. Donovan. "Changing Perceptions of Social Deviance: Gypsies in
Early Modern Portugal and Brazil" in _Journal of Social history_,
volume 26, number 1 (Fall 1992)
[the article is slightly post-period, however it does discuss gypsies and
the law beginnin in the late 15th, early 16th century]
I hope that it proves helpful.
In service to the Principality of Ealdormere (and new friends!)
Ines Carmen Maria de Freitas
[Kristine Maitland -- bq676 at freenet.toronto.on.ca]
From: "'Riff' Beth Marie Mc Curdy" <ook at u.washington.edu>
Warning and a free tip: a lot of SCA-er's have a problem with gypsies
because "we're all supposed to be noble." However, gypsies -were-
presumed noble whenever they could get away with it.
The first gypsies claimed to be the Christian nobility of Egypt,
who had abandoned their possessions in order to retain their faith when
the Muslims gained power. They were believed for a good period.
Linguistic evidence strongly demonstrates that they actually
originated in India, and moved west, migrating through the middle east
into Europe. There is a good possibility that they originated belly
dancing.
Reliable period info on gypsies is sadly lacking- the only people
writing about them were the ones who wanted rid of them at all cost. I
think it was in the fifteenth century that the pogroms against them
really got rolling...
Because gypsies have remained very secluded and secretive,
cultural "tainting" has been comparatively low, and modern practices may
well reflect medieval practices.
Good luck and have fun.
Tri Be Lith
From: bj at alpha1.csd.uwm.edu (Barbara Jean Kuehl)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Newbie seeking information on gypsy persona
Date: 1 Oct 1995 16:05:05 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
Melaena Grierson (ac359 at freenet.carleton.ca) writes):
> I'm a newcomer to the SCA and am interested in adopting a gypsy
> persona as I have Romanian ancestors.
Me, too. About a month ago, I posted a question very much like yours,
and I made contact with about 4 or 5 people with gypsy personas,
including our Gypsy King Vanyev Betzenia.
> Can anyone give me some ideas on
> what books or sources might be helpful to research my persona?
Everyone who wrote to me advised me to search out the books at whatever
libraries are in my area. I'm in the process of doing that now, but
I've found that information about gypsies is very very sketchy and
mostly written about gypsies in the last century or so. What
historical information I've been able to find is based primarily
on journal entries, literary references, liquistic studies and
other documented accounts of 'Egyptians', 'Bohemians', 'Roms'
or simply 'wandering Indian tribes' reported in particular areas.
It appears that the peoples we call Gypsies originally came from
India, probably in the northwestern part. Sometime before the 10th
century, they migrated east to Persia. Reports of Gypsies in
places such as Crete, Corfu, Serbia, Bohemia and Walachia began to
appear in the 1300's. In the 1400's, they were reported in Moldavia,
Hungary and Transylvania as well as in Germany and France. They
lived in tents (gypsy wagons are a recent introduction) and were
often described as dark-skinned magicians, entertainers, smiths,
horsebreakers and other skilled tradeworkers.
In the 1500's, gypsies begin showing up in Northern Europe --
Britain, Scotland, Denmark, Norway, etc. -- although they may
have been there already (it's just that their presence becomes
documented at this time). During the 1500's to the 1700's in
England, repressive laws were passed against Gypsies, claiming
they were thieves, bewitchers and basic undesirables. In fact,
when I told some Renaissance fairegoer friends of mine that I
was researching a gypsy persona, they told me that, had I shown
up at a faire in England during Elizabethan times, I would have
been driven off!
> I have absolutely zero information or background on the gypsy
cukture...
Well, now you have some. Good luck in your research.
BJ
From: bj at alpha1.csd.uwm.edu (Barbara Jean Kuehl)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Newbie seeking information on gypsy persona
Date: 3 Oct 1995 14:59:47 GMT
Organization: Information & Media Technologies, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee
When Malaena Grierson (ac359 at FreeNet.Carleton.CA) wrote:
I'm a newcomer to the SCA and am interested in adopting a gypsy
persona as I have Romanian ancestors. Can anyone give me some ideas on
what books or sources might be helpful to research my persona?
Carolyn Boselli (IVANOR at delphi.com) responded:
Gypsies appeared in Europe post 1600, so are not Medieval/Renaissance.
and AElfled (sandradodd at aol.com) added:
American Heritage says they were in Europe in the 14th / 15th century.
OED says they got to England in the early 1600's. England's the far end
of Europe, and I doubt they crossed all the way from India to England in
just a few years.
Perhaps I can shed some light on the appearance of gypsies in Europe.
In the book I am currently reading about gypsies ("Les Tziganes" by
Jean-Paul Clebert, 1961), the author uses private journal entries,
legal documents and other existing historical archives, to outline
the westward movement of the 'little Egyptians' (later known as 'gypsies')
from their presumed homeland in northwestern India.
According to Clebert, they advanced from India into Persia sometime
before the 10th Century. In the 1300's they were officially reported
in Crete (1322), Corfu (1346), Serbia (1348) and the Peloponnese (1378).
In the 1400's, they were officially reported in Basle (1414), Moldavia,
Hungary and Transylvania (1417), Saxony and Augsburg (1418), France
(1419), Bologna and Rome (1422), Paris (1427), Barcelona (1447),
Wales (1430 or 1440) and Scotland (1447 or 1505) -- the exact year
of their appearances in Wales and Scotland were being contested.
In the 1500's, gypsies were reported officially in Russia (1500),
Poland (1509), England (1514), Sweden (1515) and Norway (1540).
I use the word 'officially' in this context because Clebert points
out:
"These dates mark the 'official' appearance of Gypsies;
a fact which must be emphasized. It does not mean that
in reality the Gypsies had not arrived in Europe before
the authorities thought of mentioning them for the first
time, before the occurrence of some local event or other
with which their name was associated."
In fact, other authors claim that Gypsies probably made their
way in England in the 1430's, but valid documentation is lacking
in these claims.
By the way, the claim that Gypsies originated in India is
based on linguistic analysis of their language. Although the
Gypsies call themselves 'Rom' and their language is known as
'Romani', the Romani language has nothing in common with the
language known as Romanian (which is a Romance language, derived
from Latin and kin to French, Spanish, Italian, etc.). Romani
been shown to be closely related to groups of languages and
dialects (such as Hindi, Gujarati, Marathi and Cashmiri) still
spoken in India and of the same origin as Sanskrit.
Hope this helps.
BJ
From: sandradodd at aol.com (SandraDodd)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Gypsies
Date: 4 Oct 1995 09:49:39 -0400
<< In France it was thought that these same people came from
Bohemia and thus they were called 'Bohemes'.... [thus began the
English word "bohemian"]
Barbara Carter>>
THANKS! This is the coolest thread for a long time--
From: IVANOR at delphi.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Gypsies
Date: 5 Oct 1995 01:00:32 GMT
Quoting sandradodd from a message in rec.org.sca
>That's even better! I didn't know whether they had the word come with
>the people from France or somewhere else or not. What are Gypsies
>called in other languages? Spanish is Gitano, I think.
In German, Zigeuner. In South Eastern Europe, variations on Tsiganske. In
Ireland, Tinkers. Beyond that ????
Carolyn Boselli, Host of Custom Forum 35, SCAdians on Delphi
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: bq676 at torfree.net (Kristine E. Maitland)
Subject: Re: Gypsies
Organization: Toronto Free-Net
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 03:31:19 GMT
SandraDodd (sandradodd at aol.com) wrote:
: I think there is a problem in using the OED as a reference here.
: There are Elizabethan laws against dressing or acting "as an
: Egyptian," which from the descriptions seem to be what we would call
: 'gypsies.' I suspect that the word "gypsie" came into use as an
: abreviation of "Egyptian" somewhat later than the actual arrival of
: the Rom in England.>>
: That's even better! I didn't know whether they had the word come with
: the people from France or somewhere else or not. What are Gypsies called
: in other languages? Spanish is Gitano, I think.
: AElflaed
Yes, AEflaed "gitano" is the Spanish word. The Portuguese called them
"cigano".
For the record: "Anti-gypsy legislation in Britain goes back to Henry
VIII. The 1530 'Egyptians Act' Banned immigration by all 'Egipcions' and
ordered all those in England to leave the country. Subsequent acts in
the reigns of mary Tudor and Elizabeth I went so far as to provide
capital punishment for gypsy immigrants found in the country more than
one month." (see Bill M. Donovan's "Chancing perceptions of social
deviance: gypsies in early modern Portugal and Brazil" in _Journal of
Social History_ v 26 #1 (Fall 1992)
putting