Egypt-msg -
12/3/11
Medieval Egypt.
NOTE: See also the
files: Africa-msg, Byzantine-msg, Ethiopia-msg, Ethiopia-art,
Palestine-msg, Muslms-Sicily-art, Turkey-msg, Belly-Dance-art,
fd-Byzantine-msg.
************************************************************************
NOTICE
-
This
file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I
have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some
messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.
This
file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium.
These files are available on the Internet at:
http://www.florilegium.org
I
have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with
separate topics were sometimes split into different files and
sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the
message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.
The
comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I
make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the
individual authors.
Please
respect the time and efforts of those who have written these
messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this
time. If information is published from these messages, please give
credit to the originator(s).
Thank
you,
Mark S. Harris
AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan
at florilegium.org
************************************************************************
Date:
Fri, 03 Jun 2011 14:30:13 -0400
From:
"Garth G. Groff" <ggg9y at virginia.edu>
To:
Atlantia at atlantia.sca.org
Subject:
Re: [MR] Egyptian Personas in the SCA
M'Lady
Rhoesia, Greetings.
Such
a task you have set. I am no expert on Egyptian culture, but do
take
an interest in it. Like most folks, my interest is in the high
pharonic
culture like King Tut. The Roman period and later gets sadly
overlooked
in favor of the more spectacular earlier times, Cleopatra
excepted.
My
best guess is that middle and upper class Egyptians would still have
dressed
and followed the lifestyle of Rome/Byzantium up until the
conquest
by the Muslims in 642. How soon after that Muslim orthodoxy
would
have been imposed on what was left of Egyptian secular society is
unknown
to me.
So
I recall cataloging a book of Roman-period mummies a few years back.
It
may have been EGYPTIAN MUMMIES: PEOPLE FROM THE PAST by Delia
Pemberton
(San Diego: Harcourt, 2001; ISBN 0152026002). I'm sure this is
out
of print, but you can no doubt have your library get it for you. The
book
of which I'm thinking had lovely Roman-period mummy masks. The
people
in those images looked pretty much like Romans seen on murals
from
Pompeii and other places in the northern part of the empire. I'm
sure
you are interested in clothing, hair styles, jewelry, etc. These
mummy
masks are one of your best sources.
I
also found an interesting little illustrated book on Coptic Egypt:
COPTIC
EGYPT, THE CHRISTIANS OF THE NILE by Christian Cannuyer (London:
Thames
& Hudson, 2001; ISBN 0500301042). It has lots of pictures from
the
late Roman/Early Islamic period, many from textiles, murals or
illuminations.
Anything about the early Coptic Christians would probably
be
a good source.
Good
luck with your interesting quest.
Lord
Mungo Napier (Shire of Isenfir's unofficial librarian)
(aka
Garth Groff, Cataloger, UVA Libraries)
On
6/3/2011 1:24 PM, Sandra Rangel wrote:
I
have recently been curious about Egyptian culture (mostly as it
would've
related to the time of the Romans and earlier) but really in
any
way it could relate to SCA timeline. I am having trouble finding
any
resources for people who would like to create a persona or finding
someone
who has an Egyptian persona. I've tried some online searching
but
to no avail. Anyone know of someone I can chat with about the
subject?
Rohesia
Anven of Thessalonica
Date:
Fri, 3 Jun 2011 11:41:21 -0700 (PDT)
From:
Karen <karen_larsdatter at yahoo.com>
To:
The Merry Rose <atlantia at atlantia.sca.org>
Subject:
Re: [MR] Egyptian Personas in the SCA
Rohesia
wrote:
<<<
I have recently been curious about Egyptian culture (mostly as it
would've
related to the time of the Romans and earlier) but really in
any
way it could relate to SCA timeline. I am having trouble finding
any
resources for people who would like to create a persona or finding
someone
who has an Egyptian persona. I've tried some online searching
but
to no avail. >>>
You'll
find some links related to this subject at
http://moas.atlantia.sca.org/wsnlinks/index.php?action=displaycat&catid=935
There's
a lot of interesting stuff at the Eternal Egypt website:
http://www.eternalegypt.org
It
may help you to decide what period of medieval Egypt you're most
interested
in;
that would help you find more focused resources, as well.
Karen
Larsdatter
www.larsdatter.com
Date:
Fri, 3 Jun 2011 14:53:54 -0400
From:
ldmolly at md.metrocast.net
To:
"Merry Rose" <atlantia at atlantia.sca.org>
Subject:
Re: [MR] Egyptian Personas in the SCA
1
Personally,
I think dar Anahita is an excellent jumping off point for anyone
looking to learn more about Near Eastern cultures. It may be past the
timeframe you're most interested in, but Urtatim has am amazing
wealth of information on her site:
http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah/directory.html
Molly
Date:
Fri, 3 Jun 2011 19:01:50 -0400
From:
Sandra Rangel <arwynn16 at gmail.com>
To:
"Garth G. Groff" <ggg9y at virginia.edu>, Merry Rose
<atlantia
at atlantia.sca.org>
Subject:
Re: [MR] Egyptian Personas in the SCA
Lord
Mungo,
Yeah
the mummy masks were an interesting thing to stumble upon at the
Chicago
Museum of art... the mask itself was in the Egyptian section
and
not Roman so it had me curious from the start. They are also
called
Fayum mummy portraits and the techniques to paint them are
either
encaustic or acrylic. It is too bad that most of the ones that
have
survived to date were detached from the mummy themselves and any
data
that could have been derived (other than the details of the
portrait
itself) were/are lost. It seems that is the case also for
Coptic
textiles and various other Egyptian artifacts acquired at the
turn
of the century.... amazing details but because they were not
acquired
in a scholarly manner there is not much else,
archaeologically,
about the pieces. It is speculated that the
portraits
could have been painted while the person was still alive,
hanging
up in their house, and attached after the mummification.
Thanks
to others who have offered some leads, but I am definitely
looking
for stuff that is pre-6th century Egypt. And even more so
pre-4th
century. :)
I
was able to find the first book in my local library's catalog, there
are
several other titles by the same author I will check out as well.
I
could not find the Coptic one however I am looking for other titles
and
reserving them. Here are some other titles that may be available
in
other libraries in case anyone is following this thread:
*Searching
for ancient Egypt : art, architecture, and artifacts from
the
University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology
ISBN:
0801434823
*Ancient
Egypt : the land and its legacy ISBN: 0292720629
*The
treasures of Coptic art in the Coptic Museum and churches of Old
Cairo
ISBN: 977424933X or 9789774249334
*Lady
of the two lands: five queens of ancient Egypt ISBN: 0672507293
*Egypt,
Greece, and Rome : civilizations of the ancient Mediterranean
ISBN:
0198150032
*Egypt
after the pharaohs 332 B.C.-A.D. 642 : from Alexander to the
Arab
conquest ISBN: 0520059301
*The
royal women of Amarna : images of beauty from ancient Egypt ISBN:
0870998161
*The
mysterious Fayum portraits : faces from ancient Egypt ISBN:
0810933314
*The
rape of Egypt : how the Europeans stripped Egypt of its heritage
ISBN:
0712621024
*The
Encyclopedia of ancient civilizations of the Near East and
Mediterranean
ISBN: 1563247992
~Rohesia
Date:
Fri, 3 Jun 2011 18:54:36 -0700 (PDT)
From:
J. C. Smith isp?n <jsmithcsa at yahoo.com>
To:
Atlantia Mailing List <Atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org>
Subject:
Re: [MR] Egyptian Personas in the SCA
There
is this SCA Group for some type of Egyptians I don't understand:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gahawazee/
There
are also these Google Books
http://books.google.com/books?id=DH5MAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA284&dq=egypt+in+the+roman+era&hl=en&ei=AI_pTem2LMb00gGrk9WcAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=egypt%20in%20the%20roman%20era&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=oFy7yNbLpGEC&pg=PA1018&dq=egypt+in+the+roman+era&hl=en&ei=AI_pTem2LMb00gGrk9WcAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CEoQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=egypt%20in%20the%20roman%20era&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=JpBJAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA207&dq=egypt+in+the+byzantine+era&hl=en&ei=Xo_pTY7lMMft0gHCmfmxAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CFcQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q&f=false
For
information on Egypt during the Byzantine era specifically, try
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ByzantiumNovumCulture/
When
I was chatelain of Drachenwald we tried to form a shire in Egypt,?now
there's
one more reason it's failure in regrettable.
Barcsi
Janos
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2011
23:46:52 -0500
From: "Terry
Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within
the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks]
OT: Rome and medieval Egypt
In 332 BCE, Egypt fell
to Alexander. With Alexander's death in 323 BCE,
Egypt passed to his
general, Ptolemy, who founded the Ptolemaic dynasty
which lasted for roughly
300 years until the death of Cleopatra in 30 BCE.
From 30 BCE until 642 CE
(Arab conquest), Egypt was a Roman province,
becoming part of the
Byzantine Empire about 395 CE. Under the Ptolemies,
the culture of the court
was primarily Greek giving way to Roman culture.
Culinarily, The
Deipnosophists (Atheneus) and the various Roman cookery
texts would likely cover
the noble European Egyptians. The general
Egyptians likely made do
with a diet of onions, beans and bread. We know
less about the Byzantine
period. During the Medieval period, the food was
probably similar to that
found in al-Baghdadi, although that is open to
argument.
A key point to remember
is that during the Greek and Roman period, Egypt's
primary export crops
were wheat, millet, and sorghum.
Bear
<<< I assume we
don't know any more about Egyptian food of the Roman and
Medieval era than we do
of Byzantium. Which doesn't seem to be much,
certainly no menus,
right?
Stefan >>>
Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2011
08:14:28 -0500
From: Sayyeda
al-Kaslaania <samia at idlelion.net>
To: Cooks within the SCA
<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks]
OT: Rome and medieval Egypt
On 6/3/2011 10:12 PM,
Daniel And elizabeth phelps wrote:
<<< Don't know
if it would help but she could check the back issues of Saudi Aramco
World on line and see if anything useful pops up.
Daniel >>>
Agreed. Aramco World is
an awesome magazine. It's offered as a free
publication.
On Middle Ages Egyptian
culture, the gal/guy could look up Abbasid,
Fatimid, Ayyubid, and
Mamluk cultures. They all took turns controlling
Egypt. Research into the
Cairo Geniza yields spectacular results on
these. (The Fatimids
created Cairo next to Fustat).
As far as Egyptian food,
there are at least two cookbooks from Egypt in
the period. AFAIK,
neither has been translated in it's entirety into
English. Lilia Zaouli
has a few of those recipes translated in /Medieval
Cuisine of the Islamic
World,/ but it's good to know that these were
translated from Arabic
to Italian (?) to English. Charles Perry did the
Forward for the English
version, so it has some good kudos.
It's also important to
know that in the Middle Ages there was a cultural
blanket on the Middle
East/Islamic Mediterranean. Yedida Stillman calls
it the Pan-Islamic
Culture. With minor territorial variations, the
culture is largely the
same in the Middle Ages (specifically excluding
Persian) because of the
strong trade. Knowing this, people can borrow
pretty confidently from
al-Andalus, Baghdad, and Damascus to fill in
gaps of knowledge of
Cairo/Fustat.
You could also direct
the person to my blog:
http://idlelion.blogspot.com/
I'm slowly putting up
recipes and redactions from my first feast this
past weekend.
Sayyeda al-Kaslaania
Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2011
21:04:32 -0500
From: "Terry
Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within
the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks]
OT: Rome and medieval Egypt
If it's food, I'd say
get a copy of Dalby's Food in the Ancient World from A
to Z. A quick
perusal showed me a number of entries that would be of value
in putting together a
picture of Egyptian food from Pharonic to Ptolemaic.
Bear
<<< What
exactly is wanted? Food history? Persona? General History?
Egypt during the
Classical Roman era?
Egypt during the
European Middle Ages?
During the Crusades?
(Fifth Crusade?) What time period?
There's no problem
finding books on Egypt. Have they asked at a library?
Johnnae >>>
Date:
Sun, 05 Jun 2011 22:04:37 -0400
From:
"David Chessler" <chessler at usa.net>
To:
Gina Shelley <paintedwheel at hotmail.com>,
<atlantia
at atlantia.sca.org>
Subject:
Re: [MR] Egyptian Personas in the SCA
What,
EXACTLY, were they wearing in Egypt in the 6th C? It was still part
of
the
Roman Empire, though it was Byzantium that considered itself the
Roman
Empire
at the time, and which ruled most of Italy at the time. See
Belisarius.
While
Egypt was politically roman, culturally it was still Egyptian or
Ptolemaic
Greek. Anyhow, "Hellenistic culture continued to thrive in Egypt
well
after the Muslim conquest." [That is, into the 7th C or beyond]]
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/History_of_Ptolemaic_Egypt.
This
implies that there would be nothing wrong with a wearing a pleated
cotton
skirt,
or, even better, a transparent linen shirt. :-)
------
Davitt il Bigollo da
Pisa
Procurator parumper
aurifex in Portus Liburni
Officina
pro Moghul terra
Date:
Mon, 6 Jun 2011 00:46:52 -0400
From:
"Terri Morgan" <online2much at cox.net>
To:
"'Sandra Rangel'" <arwynn16 at gmail.com>, "'Merry
Rose'"
<atlantia
at atlantia.sca.org>
Subject:
Re: [MR] Egyptian Personas in the SCA
These
sites might help (some have good bibliographies)
http://www.durolitum.co.uk/articles/tunics.html
http://www.davidrumsey.com/amica/amico1296877-105506.html
http://users.stlcc.edu/mfuller/coptictextileCopenhagen.html
http://www.textileasart.com/2258.htm
http://home.comcast.net/~mikibu/Articlefolder/an_overview_of_middle.htm
http://researcharchive.calacademy.org/research/anthropology/coptic/Coptweav.htm
http://www.textileasart.com/2258.htm
Hrothny
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011
18:56:48 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
From: lilinah at
earthlink.net
To: SCA-Cooks <sca-cooks
at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks]
OT: Rome and medieval Egypt
Stefan li Rous wrote:
Just had to pass on
something I saw on the Atlantia list today.
Rohesia Anven of
Thessalonica was asking
<<< I have
recently been curious about Egyptian culture (mostly as it
would've related to the
time of the Romans and earlier) but really in
any way it could relate
to SCA timeline. I am having trouble finding
any resources for people
who would like to create a persona or finding
someone who has an
Egyptian persona. Ive tried some online searching
but to no avail. Anyone
know of someone I can chat with about the
subject? >>>
One of the responses
was:
<<< Personally,
I think dar Anahita is an excellent jumping off point
for anyone looking to
learn more about Near Eastern cultures. It may
be past the timeframe
you're most interested in, but Urtatim has an
amazing wealth of
information on her site:
http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah/directory.html
Molly >>>
Whoo Hoo, Urtatim!
============
Very kind of you,
Stefan, and of Molly, although i have only very limited
information about Egypt on my website.
As far as food goes, the
nobility in Egypt in the Hellenic and classic Roman periods was
largely of Greek descent, from General Ptolemy, so they would be
eating ancient Greek-style food (Cleopatra, for example, was a
Ptolemy). After the Romans took over completely, the ruling class and
wealthy would be eating much like the noble and wealthy Romans back
in Europe with Greek cooks who used Greek recipes. After all, much in
the Apician cookbook is Greek in origin or inspiration. I have 20
recipes of Greco-Roman origin on my website.
Urtatim
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011
19:01:48 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
From: lilinah at
earthlink.net
To: SCA-Cooks <sca-cooks
at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks]
OT: Rome and medieval Egypt
Bear wrote much that was
helpful.
<<< The general
Egyptians likely made do with a diet of onions, beans and bread. >>>
While this is much
written, I suspect this is simplistic, and that there was a little
more to their diet. Certainly people ate fish on occasion, and/or
small birds. They had a few more vegetables than just onions and
favas (and lupins on occasions). Radishes are mentioned in some
texts, as are cucumbers, garlic, melons, cabbage, mallow leaves,
colocasia (much discussed on this list). Dates were grown in Egypt
and not just in palmeries so i imagine people ate dates, too. Figs,
too, and sycamore fruit/"figs".
"An Ancient
Egyptian Herbal" by Lise Manniche, published by the University
of Texas Press (1989) has much information about plants, including
food plants, not just leafy green herbs, in ancient Egypt.
Herodotus
mentions some traditional Egyptian food plants. Among them is the
lotus root from the Asian lotus, which he describes as looking like a
wasp's comb and having edible seeds - and available around here,
where i live, in Asian markets and the Berkeley Bowl.
For the Greek and Roman
periods, Pliny discusses many Egyptian food plants.
<<< We know
less about the Byzantine period. >>>
Indeed in Europe... and
probably even less about what they were eating in the provinces...
<<< During the
Medieval period, the food was probably similar to that found in
al-Baghdadi, although
that is open to argument. >>>
Indeed, later in
SCA-period Arabic language cookbooks begin to express regional
differences in recipes, noting where they originate, and I have no
reason to think that some differences didn't
exist centuries before.
Urtatim
Samia wrote:
<<< As far as
Egyptian food, there are at least two cookbooks from Egypt in
the period. AFAIK,
neither has been translated in its entirety into
English. Lilia Zaouli
has a few of those recipes translated in /Medieval
Cuisine of the Islamic
World,/ but it's good to know that these were
translated from Arabic
to Italian (?) to English. Charles Perry did the
Forward for the English
version, so it has some good kudos. >>>
The cookbook you
mention, from the 13th C. Egypt, Kanz al-fawa'id fi tanwi'
al-mawa'id, has not been fully translated into English, sadly, but 37
of its recipes are published in "Medieval Cuisine of the Islamic
World" by Lilia Zaouali (note spelling), out in paper since 2007
- and i think 3 dozen is more than a few :-) Perry was less
enthusiastic to me in private e-mail. I wrote a review for this list
when i got my copy not long after it came out in hardcover.
And we actually do have
a complete cookbook from Mamluk-period Egypt, fully translated by
Charles Perry and published in "Medieval Arab Cookery". It
is al-Kitab Wasf al-At'ima al-Mu'tada (The Book of the Description of
Familiar Foods), written down in 1373 in Cairo. It is a compendium,
as many "period" Arabic language cookbooks are, with parts
taken from a number of other sources. It includes what Perry refers
to as an expanded version of al-Baghdadi's cookbook, with more than
twice as many recipes as al-Baghdadi's original, plus a
confectioner's manual (LOTS of white sugar), plus a chapter titled
"Dishes for Invalids, and What Monks and Christians Eat in Lent"
taken from another, now lost, book. I have recipes i cooked from this
chapter on my website, when i cooked Lenten food as part of a
challenge from this list.
<<< On Middle
Ages Egyptian culture, the gal/guy could look up Abbasid,
Fatimid, Ayyubid, and
Mamluk cultures. They all took turns controlling
Egypt. Research into the
Cairo Geniza yields spectacular results on
these. (The Fatimids
created Cairo next to Fustat). >>>
And eventually Cairo
subsumed Fustat.
For those who don't
know, a Geniza is a part of a Jewish synagogue where all sorts of
papers are kept, walled up, because if a name of god is written on
one, it cannot be merely discarded, but must be treated respectfully.
The Geniza in question has an amazing wealth of information on life
in the Fatimid period. S. D. Goitein wrote the six volume set, "A
Mediterranean Society: The Jewish Communities of the Arab World as
Portrayed in the Documents of the Cairo Geniza", analyzing them
and organizing much of the information. It tells about more than just
the lives of Jews. So if anyone is interested in medieval Egypt,
Goitein's books are an excellent source.
<<< It's also
important to know that in the Middle Ages there was a cultural
blanket on the Middle
East/Islamic Mediterranean. Yedida Stillman calls
it the Pan-Islamic
Culture. With minor territorial variations, the culture
is largely the same in
the Middle Ages (specifically excluding Persian)
because of the strong
trade. Knowing this, people can borrow pretty
confidently from
al-Andalus, Baghdad, and Damascus to fill in gaps
of knowledge of
Cairo/Fustat. >>>
Well, yes and no. This
is true to some extent, but some of the regional variations are not
so minor... Still I agree that it is useful to read up on both
Eastern Dar al-Islam (what are now Iraq,
Syria-Lebanon-Israel-Palestine, Anatolia, etc.) and Western Dar
al-Islam (al-Andaluz, and most of North Africa).
<<< You could
also direct the person to my blog:
http://idlelion.blogspot.com/
I'm slowly putting up
recipes and redactions from my first feast this
past weekend. >>>
There is a lot of
excellent information on your blog. I highly recommend it. And I look
forward to seeing your recipes.
--
Urtatim (that's
urr-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly
known as Anahita
<the end>
Edited
by Mark S. Harris Egypt-msg