East-Eur-msg Ð 2/12/04 Eastern Europe. Poles, Czechs, Bohemia. NOTE: See also the files: Poland-msg, fd-Poland-msg, Balkans-msg, Europe-msg, Gypsies-msg, Russia-msg, fd-Russia-msg, Hungary-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Documentation for Czechs in period? Date: 27 Oct 1994 04:33:18 GMT Organization: University of California, Berkeley MISS PATRICIA M HEFNER (HPGV80D at prodigy.COM) wrote: : Greetings, good gentles of the Rialto. I'm trying to find information : concerning the Czechs in the Middle Ages. It's extremely difficult to find I've run across one costuming book that focuses on medieval Bohemia: "Gothic Woman's Fashion" by Olga Sronkova (hacheks on the "s" & "n", accent on the "a"), Prague: Artia, 1954. It includes an entire chapter on the bodacious Bohemian bath-house babes! Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: nostrand at bayes.math.yorku.ca (Barbara Nostrand) Subject: Re: Documentation for Czechs in period? Organization: York University Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 00:45:00 GMT Noble Cousins! To find stuff about the Chechs, you should first remember that they lived in Bohemia and Moravia. At one point, Prague was the capital of the Holy Roman Empire. It may be difficult to find a lot of stuff in English, but there has to be tons of stuff out there in German and Chech. Try writing to the history department at Karl University, Prague. Your Humble Servant Solveig Throndardottir Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: sbloch at adl15.adelphi.edu (Stephen Bloch) Subject: Re: Documentation for Czechs in period? Organization: Adelphi University, Garden City, NY Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 05:02:33 GMT Barbara Nostrand wrote: >To find stuff about the Chechs, you should first remember that they lived >in Bohemia and Moravia. At one point, Prague was the capital of the Holy >Roman Empire. It may be difficult to find a lot of stuff in English, but >there has to be tons of stuff out there in German and Chech. Try writing >to the history department at Karl University, Prague. Depending on what you want, you might also talk to the Jewish Historical Museum in Prague. I spent a number of hours there when I visited Prague, trying to track down ancestors. The staff (all two of them) were very helpful and friendly. There were language problems: their English was better than my Czech, but on several occasions we all had to switch into German to communicate. I recall wanting to photocopy a number of pages from one of their old (German) reference books, but they didn't have a copier in the building so they handed it to me, gave me directions to a copying shop half a mile away, and hoped I would bring it back. Prague has a number of medieval historical sites. The Svaty Jiri (St. George) chapel dates to the 13th century or so (I think some of the stonework is several hundred years older than that), and the Staronovo Sinagogo (Old New Synagogue) dates to the late 13th century as well (its name comes from several hundred years during which it was the "New Synagogue"). There's also the famous "old Jewish cemetery", which seems to have been founded around 1400; it's hard to tell how old it really is, because due to lack of real estate they buried people on top of one another for 300 years. Half an hour's train ride outside Prague is the village of Karlstejn and its beautifully restored 14th-century (?) castle. Gee, I'm getting nostalgic... and off the subject... sniff... -- Stephen Bloch sbloch at boethius.adelphi.edu Math/CS Dept, Adelphi University From: asamplas at indiana.edu (Vlad the Purple) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Russia/Black Sea/Caspian Sea area Date: Fri, 20 Jan 1995 12:55:47 Organization: Indiana University Vajk asks about info on Maygars, Khazars, ad inf. I personally am not acquainted with any such info; my belief, which could well be unfounded, is that there is little or no information on this area in English because of the predilection to concentrate on Western European cultures. Also, the main source materials available to Western scholars would have little on such cultures to begin with - they'd likely be considered barbarian pagans who had nothing worth preserving in Orthodox monastic libraries, never mind Roman ones. (I'd love to be proven worng on this but doubt I will...) Norman Davies' history of Poland, _God's Playground_ (sorry, can't recall biblio. citation), contains a first chapter on indigenous North Slavic tribes that were around in the area now occupied by Poland, the Baltics, and Prussia, and lists different schools of thought on their migration/culture/etc. A fair amount of work had been done by Polish scholars trying to debunk earlier Germanically-prejudiced views, but of course these were working within a strict Marxist ideological framework. You might consult Davies' bibliography as a first layer of pointers into what literature is out there, but I'm afraid you'd better be prepared to read German, Polish, Russian, Ukranian, Bulgarian, Georgian... If you get other replies or info privately would you please post a summary, and put a copy on whatever Web page is being developed for Scadian use? It would be *very* useful if done well. (The sort of stuff this club should be doing given our charter, says the gradual student currently taking a bibliography course...:) -purple Artie Samplaski Vlad the Purple Indiana U. School of Music Myrkfaelinn Midrealm Accounts Rep. asamplas at indiana.edu From: BHoll Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Some assistance? Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 22:19:11 -0500 Organization: Trinity University Look at the bibliography at the Slavic Interest Group web site: http://vms.www.uwplatt.edu/~goldschmidt/slavic.html There are references to books on Eastern European Middle Ages. It's largely Russian stuff, but not exclusively. And according to my research, pre-XIII century Russian costume was pretty much T-tunic-like with more tunics and cloaks for cold weather. Fur lined, too. Just add an appropriate hat, and that's it. Predslava Vydrina Barony of Bjornsborg Kingdom of Ansteorra From: BHoll Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Some assistance? Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 23:23:48 -0500 Organization: Trinity University I have missed the original post, but if you are interested in Russia and Central/Eastern Europe, then go to the Slavic Interest Group web page: http://vms.www.uwplatt.edu/~goldschmidt/slavic.html There is a great bibliography there and other good stuff. If you cannot get to that web page, then write to me at MHoll at aol.com and I'll be happy to help. The most current and accurate name-book of Russian names can be found at the SCA web site at http://www.sca.org/ in the Heraldry section. Again, if you need more help, feel free to write to me (do not e-mail via this post). Predslava Vydrina Bjornsborg, Ansteorra From: eduardvz at aol.com (EduardVZ) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Hungarian Persona Date: 4 Apr 1997 09:00:11 GMT There is a book put out by Osprey in their Man-at-Arms Series called Hungary and the fall of Eastern Europe 1000-1568. It has some very interesting historical information and some beautiful illustrations of Garb and armour. Good luck and a nice choice if I might add. Eduard II, Rex, Galandor Knight Bannerette, Knight Minister From: "sunshinegirl" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Bohemian persona Date: 15 Apr 98 22:27:18 GMT Organization: Southwestern Bell Internet Services, Richardson, TX Lurking Girl wrote: > Katherine Norris dixit: > >I'm looking into a Bohemian persona, and I was wondering if there was > >anyone out here who had one or could point me towards some information. > >The time span I'm currently looking at is 1350's to 1400ish [...] > > And please, if anyone has said information, post it! I, too, have > been looking for this, but over some eight months of on-and-off searching, > the only sources I've found which look useful are in Czech, which I can't > read. :( Try looking in some religious reform history books. You might find sources under the topic "Moravians", "John Hus of Bohemia" (burned at the stake in 1415), "Bohemian Brethren", "Hussite" The Bohemian Brethren, despite the great persecution that they went through, brought out the first collection of hymns published on the European continent in 1501. A biography of John Hus might point you toward some more general knowledge about the Bohemians. Melandra of the Woods From: sppksp at aol.com (SPPKSP) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Bohemian persona Date: 17 Apr 1998 00:35:55 GMT Funny you should mention that. I have been reading a high-school level history textbook on Czech history written after 1989. When I participated in the school system of the Czechoslovak Socialist Republic in the 70's, "they" never mentioned that the Hussites were honest to god nuts, and that later on in the movement their famous army was altogether mercenary and the hussite king had to invent little wars and plunder the fields to keep the army in pay. The international debt incurred as a result of these practice was largely responsible for the Hapsburg takeover of 1621 (including the events preceding that), when the impoverished Czech nobles decided to sell out their unique right to elect their king in favor of internal stabililty. Etc, etc. I have seen the history of the land of my birth so revised in earlier years that reading this book is like learning everything from scratch again. The authors were probably political dissidents under the old regime, or they knew how to keep their mouths shut. Kazi From: davesg at netaxs.com (David J. Szent-Gyorgyi) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Bohemian persona Date: 17 Apr 1998 05:53:39 GMT On 15 Apr 1998 06:11:05 GMT, Katherine Norris wrote: >I'm looking into a Bohemian persona, and I was wondering if >there was anyone out here who had one or could point me towards >some information. The time span I'm currently looking at is >1350's to 1400ish, although I'm open to other suggestions. Any >information on culture, names, history, clothing would be >greatly appreciated. > >Kai Hi, Kai. Two suggestions: The specific one. Go through Wagner, Eduard. _Medieval Costume, Armour, and Weapons (1350-1450)._ London: Paul Hamlyn, 1962. The title is misleading. This book was produced in Czechoslovakia, and focuses on Hussite Bohemia--though it includes material on gear and garb of other areas that were of importance at the time. It begins with many pages of essays, and finishes with many pages of illustrations drawn from primary and Period secondary sources. It's coffee-table sized, and exists in translations into German and English as well as the original. I blundered into it while looking up something quite unrelated, and hunted down a copy because it included more illustrations of Hungarian garb and gear than I'd seen collected anywhere else. The drawings of costume are not made for reenactors and recreationists, so they don't necessarily serve as patterns--but they do give a good visual sense of the piece, and citations are made for almost every one (the one source for the Hungarian stuff is given by author's name only, alas--I'm hunting for it). Trust after you verify, as with any source. My garb-historian friends tell me that the gorgeous illustration of a Hungarian archer, which is made after a Duerer etching, Just Isn't Typical Hungarian. Nonetheless, I trust Duerer's eye and hand, and want a look at the original. Anyone know where I can find a full reproduction of his "Nurnberger Feldschlange?" I don't know whether this book is available via Inter-Library Loan. Swarthmore College's library has a copy. The general suggestion: Join the Slavic Interest Group, and start with their bibliography. Their home page is at URL http://vms.www.uwplatt.edu/~goldschmidt/slavic.html . They're happy to serve as a clearing-place for information on Central and Eastern Europe, Slav or not. Good luck in your search! , , Arpad --- , , , Dave Szent-Gyorgyi Kolozsvari Arpad davesg at netaxs.com Hartshorn-dale, East Kingdom, SCA Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: bq676 at torfree.net (Kristine E. Maitland) Subject: Sources on Bohemia... Organization: Toronto Free-Net Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 16:42:18 GMT I love a research challenge -- what a way to spend a Friday afternoon. Here's a list of books etc.(in English), on Bohemia: a) Recommended (i.e. I actually got to look at these) Betts, Reginald Robert. _Essays in Czech History_. London: Athlone P., 1969. Tapie, Victor L. _The Rise and Fall of the Habsburg Monarchy_. trans. Stephan Hardman. New York: Praeger Publishers, 197? b) Other Books (i.e. books that were listed as being at the main University of Toronto Library... that I did not get a chance to look at) Kavka, Frantiwek. _An outline of Czechoslovak History_. Prague: Orbis, 1960. Klassen, John Martin. _The nobility and making of the Hussite revolution_ New York: distributed by Columbia University Press, 1978. Pludek, Alexej. _Carolus Quartus, Romanorum imperator et Boemie Rex_. Prague: Orbis Press Agency, 1978. [notes in English, French and German] Rican, Rudolf. _The History of the Unity of Brethren: A Protestant Hussite Church in Bohemia and Moravia_. trans. C. Daniels Crews. Bethleham, Pennsylvania: The Moravian Church in America, 1992. Seton-Watson, Robert William. _A History of the Czech and Slovaks_. Hamden, Conn.: Archon Books, 1965. c) Websites http://www-lib.usc.edu/~aflesch/bohemia.html [brief history, 12-13th century] d) Research recommendations 1. Try to find books by Kamil Krofta: major Bohemian historian 2. Garb, food etc will depend heavily on who is ruling Bohemia at the time. 3. Post interesting things that you find: Lord Stephan li Rous will be able to archive it for future use. bona fortuna Inez Rosanera Ealdormere Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 14:18:02 -0500 From: "Decker, Terry D." Subject: RE: SC - turkish food in the North > I don't think the Magyars are a turkic people--at least, the language is > finno-ugric, not Turkic. And I don't think the Finns are descended from > Magyars, given how different the languages are--just that they have some > common origin much farther back. If we are talking about migrations that > occurred prior to the invention of agriculture, I doubt we can expect much > culinary connection--anyone know what the conjectural dates are? > > David Friedman The Magyars migrated out of western Siberia in the vicinity of the Urals to the northern Caucasus around 460 CE. Finland was settled around the 1st Century. The Finns and the Magyars are probably related, but are not necessarily the same people. In the 9th Century, the Pecheneg migration out of Central Asia forced the Magyars west into Romania. The Magyars moved into Hungary and Bulgaria and were pushing into the Germanic states when they were defeated by the Holy Roman Emperor Otto. The Magyars became Hungarians and the Pecheneg and some of the other Central Asian tribes which migrated west became Turks. Because of the geography of the region, the Magyars traded with the Turks and, in the 16th Century were overrun by the Ottoman Empire. So while the Turks definitely influence Hungarian cooking, tracing the migration of this influence to far side of the Baltic is more tenuous. Adamantius' historical connection looks to be the best answer for a connection in cusines. As to the languages, Finnish and Magyar share a number of linguistic simularities and are classed a Finno-Ugric languages, a subset of the broader class Uralic. Turkic is a subset of Altaic. In geographic terms, the Uralic languages share a root language used in the vicinity of the Ural Mountains in western Siberia. Altaic languages derive from a root language in use in Central Asia and named for the Altai Mountains which form part of the western border between Mongolia and China. There is a debate as to whether Uralic and Altaic are unrelated or are branches of an earlier root language. Bear Subject: Re: SC - Re: Meats/spices in MA If you do have some sort of records of incidental purchases by peasants, I would like to see a citation, because that sort of agricultural economic history I enjoy. (For information about Tenant farm economy in Central Europe, try, Land, Liberties and Lordship in a Late Medieval Countryside: Agrarian Structures and Change in the Duchy of Wroclaw. Richard C. Hoffman. (Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania, 1989) .) -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne at tulgey.browser.net Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 16:57:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Subject: [Sca-cooks] Long Journey of Gracia Mendes (fwd) To: This is the BIP record. -- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 16:54:39 -0400 From: globalbooksinprint at bowker.com To: jenne at fiedlerfamily.net Subject: Long Journey of Gracia Mendes Record 1 Title: The Long Journey of Gracia Mendes Author: Marianna Birnbaum Publication Date: 2003 Publisher: Central European University Press ISBN: 963-9241-67-9 Item Status: Active Record Binding Format: Trade Cloth Edition: illustrated Pages: 180 Price: $ 43.95 Retail Books International, Incorporated Data Source: Bowker-U.S. Audience: College Audience Bowker Subjects: RELIGION WORLD HISTORY General Subjects (BISAC): HISTORY / World RELIGION / General LCCN: 2003-009770 LC Call#: DS135.P8N373 2003 Dewey #: 946.9/004924/0092 Physical Dimensions: 6 x 9 in. -------------------------------------- Copyright © 2003 R.R. Bowker LLC. All rights reserved. Bowker¨ and Books In Print¨ are registered trademarks and The Bowker logo, Global Books In Printª, globalbooksinprint.comª, and The Global Books In Print logo are trademarks of R.R. Bowker LLC. Book Data In Print portions © 2003 Book Data. View our privacy policy or terms of use. Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 17:41:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Huette von Ahrens Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] FW: paprika and spikenard To: Solwerlad , Cooks within the SCA --- Solwerlad wrote: >>>>> DTD> There is a new book, that I am looking forward to reading, from the DTD> Central European University Press, The Long Journey of Gracia Mendes, DTD> which ties to all of these subjects during 1510 to 1569. DTD> The author is Marianna D. Birnbaum, Professor Emeritus from, DTD> wonder of wonders, UCLA. Do you mean it is a fiction work? I'm really curious, just returned from the Medieval Studies gathering at CEU, but heard nothing of this new book of Marianna Birnbaum. Solwerlad <<<<< No. It is a biography. Here is the Library of Congress citation. Huette 100 1 Birnbaum, Marianna D. 245 14 The long journey of Gracia Mendes / by Marianna D. Birnbaum. 260 Budapest ; New York : Central European University Press, 2003. 263 0308 300 p. cm. 504 Includes bibliographical references and index. 505 0 chap. 1. Introducing the family -- chap. 2. A short history of the conversos -- chap. 3. Life in sixteenth-century Antwerp -- chap. 4. Gracia in Venice -- chap. 5. Gracia and Jewish patronage in sixteenth-century Ferrara -- chap. 6. In business with Ragusa -- chap. 7. The Ottoman Empire and the Jews. 600 10 Nasi, Gracia, ca. 1510-1569. 650 0 Marranos--Portugal--Biography. 650 0 Jews--Portugal--Biography. 650 0 Sephardim--Portugal--Biography. 650 0 Jewish women--PortugalÑBiography 650 0 Jews--Europe--Social conditions--16th century. 650 0 Jews--Europe--Economic conditions--16th century. 651 0 Europe--Ethnic relations. Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 21:36:37 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] FW: paprika and spikenard To: "Solwerlad" , "Cooks within the SCA" The Long Journey of Gracia Mendes is the biography of a Portuguese girl who married a Jewish Ragusan spice trader. The fact that the author is from UCLA and that there is a thesis on Ragusan spice traders at UCLA, suggests a link between Birnbaum and the thesis, providing additional cachet for the thesis. Bear Edited by Mark S. Harris East-Eur-msg