Anglo-Saxon-msg - 2/15/08
Anglo-Saxon history, clothing and culture.
NOTE: See also the files: AS-jewelry-art, fd-Anglo-Saxn-msg, fd-Arthur-msg, jewelry-msg, pouches-msg, England-msg, Normans-msg, Picts-msg.
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Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous
Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: aj at wg.icl.co.uk (Tony Jebson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Buring Times and Weenie Roast
Date: 31 Oct 1994 11:31:32 -0600
TRISTAN CLAIR DE LUNE (v081lu33 at ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu) writes:
> For one, by "co-opted" pagan, etc. forms, I meant that a lot of
> Christian holidays happen to coincide with pagan holidays. For instance,
> making Christmas December 25 helped make the religion more palatable to
> the Romans. And for another example, there was a version of the Gospels
> written as a Saxon ballad.
On the issue of the Anglo-Saxons and paganism, I think I ought to expand
on what Tristan has said.
There are two types of paganism that must be considered when talking about
Anglo-Saxon England:
First, English Paganism. That is, paganism within the Anglo-Saxon population.
The Anglo-Saxons were converted to Christianity quite early, starting with
St. Augustines mission in 597. By the time of Bede England had been converted.
Second, paganism *within* England. That is, paganism re-introduced by
successive waves of Scandinavian settlers. This was problem that the
English Church had to contend with from about 750-800 until the Norman
Conquest!
Little is known about English paganism. Early writer such as Bede are
silent about pagan practises in England (understandably, they wish to
promote Christianity). It is known that the pagan English worshipped the
Germanic pantheon, but little is known about *how*. One piece of evidence
for English paganism has survived to the present day. Consider the names of
the days of the week: Sun day, Moon day, Tiw's day, Woden's day, Thunor's
day, and Friya's day! Other pieces of evidence can be found within things
like the Rune Peom, and a set of Metrical Charms (you can call some of them
spells if you like ;) ).
The Scandinavian pagan influx appears to have had some influence over
popular belief: there are a handful of Northumbrian place names and
picture stones that can be considered as evidence, and the 11th century
laws of Cnut speak out strongly against pagan practises such as witchcraft
and divination. However, it had >>NO<< influence at all on the surviving
literature (which is primarily southern, and not from the area of Viking
settlement).
However, I'm not sure that I would use literature as evidence of "populist"
religion. Literacy in Anglo-Saxon England was restricted to the church and
a small group of nobles. Also, much of the literature that survives requires
quite a high sophisticated of knowledge about the basis of Christianity, and
can't really be considered as a pagans guide to Christianity. Much of this
literature was intended to be used within the established church rather
than as texts for missionaries.
BTW, none of the four Gospels survives in verse form. The closest are
three poems (known as Christ A, B, C) which tell of Christ coming to earth,
his ascension, and his return as judge. There are also sections of the
Old Testament which survive in verse. All the Gospels survive in prose
translation.
--- Tony Jebson
From: aj at wg.icl.co.uk (Tony Jebson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: 5th c. England: sources
Date: 22 Nov 1994 03:23:55 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
Mellyrn (mellyrn at enh.nist.gov) writes:
> Anybody know of some good treatises on 5thc English history?
Well, you could try some of the following:
Gildas: Arthurian Period sources Vol. 7.
ISBN 0 85033 296 6
[Gildas wrote in the mid 5th century; translation and Latin.]
The Origins of Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms
Ed. Steven Bassett
[collection of papers about the origin of some of the more obscure
A-S kingdoms: Hwicce, the Magonsaete, etc. Well know contributors include
David Dumville, Barbara Yorke, Margaret Gelling]
The Age of Sutton Hoo
Ed. Martin Carver
[collection of papers, mostly archaeological though some discuss
symbolism; vocabulary of "Beowulf"; etc]
The English Conquest: Gildas and Britain in the fifth century
N.J.Higham
[in-depth discussion of Britain in the time of Gildas. Though I
personally think he reads a little too much into Gildas]
Rome, Britain and the Anglo-Saxons,
Nicholas Higham
[good discussion of sub-Roman England and the coming of the Saxons. Loads
of Archaeology + Gildas (see above!)].
> How about 10th-11thc Ireland?
Nope... I know nothing!
--- Tony Jebson
From: priest at vassar.edu (Carolyn Priest-Dorman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Viking and Anglo-Saxon Hats
Date: 25 Feb 1996 00:38:20 GMT
Organization: Vassar College
Greeting from Thora Sharptooth!
About the ninth to eleventh centuries, Ben Levick
(ben at hrofi.demon.co.uk) asked:
1) Does anyone out there have any evidence from this period of English
>men of a non-military nature (i.e. civilians) wearing hats (with the
>notable exception of the well known manuscript showing the king and
>his Witan wearing their ëdunces' capsí), or were hats seen primarily
>as the mark of a military man?
The best single source I have for this is Gale Owen-Crocker's _Dress in
Anglo-Saxon England_, which suggests that hats may not have been
particularly common in the tenth and eleventh centuries. She mentions
the "hufe," an ecclesiastical cap of some sort, but most other headgear
appears to have been military in nature.
>2) We are all familiar with the rather stylish Viking' fur-brimmed
>leather hat, used by Viking re-enactors all around the world,
>but what evidence is there for its use in this period, particularly
>in western Scandinavia and the British Isles? Was it really used or
>is it another one of those items, like cross-gartered leg bindings
>and double-headed axes, that are more common in modern reconstructions
>than contemporary sources?
At least two main types of men's headwear have been found in Sweden, in
the Birka men's graves of the ninth and tenth centuries. One type
(Hagg's "Type A") has been mutated by many re-enactors into the
aforementioned fur-brimmed leather hat, although the originals appear
to have been neither leather nor fur-brimmed. Both types of headgear
correlate to a specific men's overgarment, believed by some historians
to have been a Rus military garment.
However, I haven't seen any archaeological sources that conclusively
document any specific type of men's headgear in the western Viking
milieu in the same period.
For sources, contact me privately.
***********************************************************************
Carolyn Priest-Dorman Thora Sharptooth
priest at vassar.edu Frostahlid, Austrrik
Gules, three square weaver's tablets in bend Or
***********************************************************************
From: mulvanem at fp.co.nz (Maggie Mulvaney)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: What did they do with the skirt edges?
Date: 19 May 1996 01:58:36 GMT
Organization: Fisher & Paykel Limited.
David Friedman (ddfr at best.com) wrote:
: > Someone wrote:
: > > Hmmm, I thought the assumption was one of birth not social status. The
: > > two are not necessarily the same, are they?
: > Someone replied:
That was Bryan.
: > >>Before 1800, you bet your biffy, they were!
: I asked:
: > Who was Harold Godwinsson's grandfather?
: Bryan replied:
: > Ah, so this sort of social mobility can thus be ascertained to be the norm,
: > the dominant cultural emic and etic, the most likely way things were done,
: > eh?
: I do not see how that follows from what I posted. The claim was that birth
: rank and social status were "necessarily the same"--indeed that you can
: "bet your biffy ... they were." One counterexample is sufficient to
: refute "necessarily the same," and there are quite a lot.
To add to that - with documentation - Read the paper entitled 'The Thriving
of the Anglo-Saxon Ceorl' by Sir F.M. Stenton, published in
Preparatory to Anglo-Saxon England
1970 Oxford University Press
It wasn't particularly common, but it was in no way impossible. It _was unusual
for the grandson of a Ceorl to become King of England, but Harold's time was
unusual anyway. On the other hand, a Ceorl could quite conceivably aspire to
become a Thegn.
Cheerfully
Muireann ingen Eoghain
From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon?
Date: 23 Oct 1996 03:57:37 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Terry Aucoin (HDXQ27A at prodigy.com) wrote:
: Hi I have read a little about the Anglo Saxons and wanted to know what
: did they wear? Clothing that is? I know from an article I read they used
: Chainmail mostly as armor, round or tear drop shields.
The best single source I've found on Anglo-Saxon clothing is Gale R.
Owen-Crocker's "Dress in Anglo-Saxon England" (Manchester University
Press, 1986, ISBN 0-7190-1818-8).
: Where their names the same like the Vikings?
Many Anglo-Saxon names are cognate with Old Norse names, but the spelling
and pronunciation will be somewhat different. E.g., Old Norse
"A{dh}alvaldr" versus Anglo-Saxon "AEthelweald".
Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn
From: David Corliss <corlisd at aa.wl.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon?
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 17:03:50 -0400
Organization: Retro Team, Parke-Davis Ann Arbor
Heather Rose Jones wrote:
> Terry Aucoin (HDXQ27A at prodigy.com) wrote:
>
> : Hi I have read a little about the Anglo Saxons and wanted to know what
> : did they wear? Clothing that is? I know from an article I read they used
> : Chainmail mostly as armor, round or tear drop shields.
>
> The best single source I've found on Anglo-Saxon clothing is Gale R.
> Owen-Crocker's "Dress in Anglo-Saxon England" (Manchester University
> Press, 1986, ISBN 0-7190-1818-8).
This is indeed a very fine source. Allow me to give you a strong caution concerning existing documentation on Anglo-Saxon Culture: It is _very_ strongly slanted toward a very narrow time frame: February to October of 1066. Your present knowledge reflects this: you describe the equipment of a small elite fighting force, the Housecarls, that fought in the war of 1066. If your particular area of interest is the time of the Norman Invasion, there is much available. Some is excellent; other is less good. Much is based on subjective interpretation of a single article: the Bayeaux Tapetry. If you find your interest lying in a different period of Anglo-Saxon Culture, you will need
to do a bit of searching.
> : Where their names the same like the Vikings?
>
> Many Anglo-Saxon names are cognate with Old Norse names, but the spelling
> and pronunciation will be somewhat different. E.g., Old Norse
> "A{dh}alvaldr" versus Anglo-Saxon "AEthelweald".
>
> Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn
Another fine observation from Tangwystyl - she must have some Saxon in her, for when have the dark Welsh been so erudite?
A modern analogy may help. The language spoken in the American Midwest, American
Southeast, New England, England, Scotland, Australia, and Kenya are often so different that basic comprehension is threatened. Yet, all these languages go by the title "English". Similarly, at the time of the Conquest, Angles,Saxons, Danes, Swedes, Norse, Icelanders, Frisians (living on the islands off the coast of what is now the Netherlands), and the Dutch all spoke for what passed as a single language. (The Icelanders still speak their version of it; Norse is little changed.) During the late Saxon period, these languages had as much in common as the diffent varieties of English do today. A Saxon speaking to a person from Norway probably encountered a situation similar to you speaking to a person from Kenya, Australia, or Louisiana.
If there is anything I can do for you, do not hesitate to write me.
Beorthwine of Grafham Wood
David Corliss
corlisd at aa.wl.com
From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon?
Date: 2 Nov 1996 01:25:00 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
David Corliss (corlisd at aa.wl.com) wrote:
: Heather Rose Jones wrote:
: > The best single source I've found on Anglo-Saxon clothing is Gale R.
: > Owen-Crocker's "Dress in Anglo-Saxon England" (Manchester University
: > Press, 1986, ISBN 0-7190-1818-8).
: This is indeed a very fine source. Allow me to give you a strong caution
: concerning existing documentation on Anglo-Saxon Culture: It is _very_
: strongly slanted toward avery narrow time frame: February to October of 1066.
I don't think you meant to imply that Owen-Crocker's book was this
narrowly focussed, but let me re-emphasize, its coverage is quite broad
and deep with respect to AS culture.
<snip>
: Another fine observation from Tangwystyl - she must have some Saxon in her,
: for when have the dark Welsh been so erudite?
[icily] I BEG your pardon!
Tangwystyl
From: mulvanem at fp.co.nz
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Anglo-Saxon?
Date: 8 Nov 1996 02:21:17 GMT
Organization: magh_seireadh
In article <54ile9$1u1k at useneta1.news.prodigy.com> <54k53h$m67 at agate.berkeley.edu> <327A65B6.3760 at aa.wl.com>,
David Corliss <corlisd at aa.wl.com> wrote:
> Heather Rose Jones wrote:
> > The best single source I've found on Anglo-Saxon clothing is Gale R.
> > Owen-Crocker's "Dress in Anglo-Saxon England" (Manchester University
> > Press, 1986, ISBN 0-7190-1818-8).
> This is indeed a very fine source. Allow me to give you a strong caution
> concerning existing documentation on Anglo-Saxon Culture: It is _very_
> strongly slanted toward a very narrow time frame: February to October of 1066. > Your present knowlegde reflects this: you describe the equipment of a small
> elite fighting force, the Housecarls, that fought in the war of 1066. If your
> particular area of interest is the time of the Norman Invasion, there is much
> available. Some is excellent; other is less good. Much is based on subjective
> interpretation of a single article: the Bayeaux Tapetry. If you find your
> interest lying in a different period of Anglo-Saxon Culture, you will need
> to do a bit of searching.
While this is not actually true for Owen-Crocker's book, it _is_ almost true for
many other tomes out there. I'd like to amend it, though. Much documentation exists for _early_ Anglo-Saxon times, mainly in the form of primary sources, documents and archaeological finds. These latter tend to lessen as the Christianising of the Saxons meant less gravegoods being put aside for our convenience. Documentation picks up again from the end of the tenth century, and frustratingly, the biggest single source of documentation, the Domesday book, was provided by the Normans. Damn inconsiderate, really, especially for those of us interested in the intervening time. There is stuff available, however.
One note on Owen-Crocker's book - her theories are not universally accepted.
As a backup I suggest looking at the HMSO book on textiles and clothing. It
is much later, of course, but many of the techniques described therein are
valid for earlier times, based on what little such documentation I've been able
to find from other sources, and there is some discussion on background data.
While I am nowhere near the calibre of expertise of Tangwystyl or Beorthwine,
feel free to contact me if you want to talk Anglo-Saxon clothing... <g>
Muireann ingen Eoghain
Resident of the most Fair Southern Reaches of Caid
From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Saxon Cloaks
Date: 20 Dec 1996 02:27:29 GMT
Organization: University of California at Berkeley
Nothmund <nothmund at aol.com> wrote:
> I am planning to make a cloak, and would like some information as to
>the type of cloak that would have been worn by a saxon of the late nineth
>century...
The usual cloak for men of that period was a rectangle, draped
around the neck and pinned on the right shoulder, leaving the
swordarm free. If the cloak was very large--the size of a
blanket--it could be folded in half before being pinned. For
more details, see if you can find a copy of Gail Owen-Crocker's
_Dress in Anglo-Saxon England,_ Manchester University Press,
1986. This is the best source I know of.
Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West Albany, California
PRO DEO ET REGE djheydt at uclink
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic,rec.org.sca
From: wp823 at freenet.victoria.bc.ca (Jo Beverley)
Subject: Re: history of mustard
Organization: Victoria Freenet Association
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 21:12:38 GMT
As a lurker here (I confess, I just skim through looking for anything
that might berelevant to one of my romance novels) I'll contribute the
fact that mustard seed was known and used in Anglo-Saxon times.
If anyone here is interested in research of that period, a UK company
called Anglo Saxon Books puts out some detailed works, such a two-volume
set on food. I use them because my novels are late 11th, early 12th
century and most books favor the later period.
http://www.anglo-saxon.demon.co.uk/asbooks/
Jo Beverley
From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pre-Norman invasion clothing.
Date: 6 Mar 1997 04:19:58 GMT
Organization: University of California at Berkeley
Aethelwulf <uptoic at hg.uleth.ca> wrote:
|I am looking for information on the styles of men's clothing worn during
|the late tenth-early eleventh centuries. Also, any information on where
|to find patterns would be appreciated.
Try to find a copy (in your friendly neighborhood university
library is likeliest) of Gale Owen-Crocker's _Dress in Anglo-
Saxon England_ (Manchester University Press, 1986). In this
book Owen-Crocker assembled all the *facts* she could find
about the topic, from manuscripts and grave goods and sculpture
and everything else surviving. She's a little short on
*speculation,* so that at times you find yourself wanting
to shout, "JUST TELL ME WHAT TO WEAR!" But it's an excellent
place to start.
Looking quickly at Chapter VII, "Men's costume in the tenth and
eleventh centuries," I find knee-length cloaks clasped by a
brooch on the right shoulder and falling away to leave the
sword-arm free; or fastened in front and falling away on either
side (several of these on seated kings). Layered T-tunics