soapstone-msg - 2/3/08 Use of soapstone in period. Modern sources. Carving suggestions and warnings. NOTE: See also these files: casting-msg, plaster-msg, sculpture-msg, Relief-Carvng-art, frescoes-msg, ivory-msg, ivory-bib, pewter-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 22:11:37 -0800 From: irgenwer at ix.netcom.com (Irgenwer Schuld) Subject: Soapstone Casting (WAY-LONG!!!) To: "Mark Harris" <mark_harris at quickmail> >Greetings unto Twcs! >>Long time no hear from! I wasn't sure you were still frequenting the >Rialto. Got a well used saopbox around here, somewhere. Hi Stefan: This is the first time in a long while that I've had a little time to spare for lurking on the bridge. I guarentee that I'll be gone again for several months in just a few weeks. I'm on the home stretch for finishing my dissertation research, and it manages to eat up time very effectively! I'm also spending most of my time "allowance" for SCA activities on running the local fighter practice (in pursuit of my life-long ambition to become a stickjock!) I'm crossposting this to the rialto, since you brought up a question that more than one person may be interested in. Here goes: >This is the first time I've heard of carving saopstone wet. No one >suggested it here in previous discussions. In fact, some cautioned >against getting the stone wet, because the water wood boil off and >crack the stone similar to what you describe, even at pewter >temperatures. >I wonder if I could bake my mold in the oven after >carving it wet to dry it out? Perhaps nearer the boiling point of >water than the 500 degrees of the pewter? You basically have the right idea! I bake out my molds, first to drive off the residual non-stoichiometric water from carving it wet, and then to get it up to a temperature where I no loinger worry about any sudden dehydration reactions from the hydrous silcates present in modern soapstones. Well - hit me over the head with a wet noodle! Shame on me for not be sufficiently detailed. I watch the sculpture class in the room next door to where I do most of my casting - and they're all carving their soapstone under water in bowls and tubes, or with wetting it down with a wet towel. I'm under the impression from talking to the sculpture types, that this is becoming more and more common as artists get better educated regarding the materials they use. But with regards to carving your mold wet and then using it for casting, I need to get the noodle squad over to do their thing to me, for I now realize that I assumed everyone knew about how to properly bake a rock and why! I mean - just think about this for a second - here I am, sitting around and assuming that, of course, people bake their own rocks every day, all the time! Why, I think nothing of popping a rock into the furnace and cranking up the heat! YOU THINK I'M KIDDING?!?!?!?!?!?!? I'm not! But let me explain: I torture rocks for a living. I'm a professional mineral nerd. At this point, I probably have rocks in my head, as well as in my lab, my office, my truck, my closet, my bookcase (well, the nice-looking ones...). I don't think anything of just popping a rock into the oven, if that's the appropriate thing to do! So let me tell you in greater detail about how to bake a rock. First, don't do it with massive talc. There's a really lovely pale green massive talc currently on the market in the States and Canada that I see a lot of SCA folks east of the Rockies using for their pewter casting. But it has really serious problems with cracking while being worked. If you put massive talc in the oven, it's going to break! That's the nature of the mineral. If you want to use a "soapstone" (please see my previous post for the definition of this), use one of the schists on the market. A phyllosilicate-rich schist that's nice enough to be used as a soapstone has enough other stuff in it to keep it together while you abuse it. The lovely brown-red schist from Michigan is a real winner in this regard (give me a few days and I'll probably be able to hunt down the quarry name); there's also a delightfull sillimanite schist from the Ruby Mnts in Nevada that would do well for the casting application too. The talc schist from south of Mariposa in the south Sierra Nevada doesn't work (I tried) - it's not fine grained enough. So the first thing you need to do is pick the right rock to bake. Use a schist and not a one-mineral "soapstone" like sericite or massive talc. The second thing to do is carve it. Now, regardless of the actual identity of the rock you're using, if it cracks while you're carving it, it'll crack in the oven too. Rock that will crack with just little abuse will not last through high temperature casting. Now let's assume the mold is carved. For the sake of discussion, I'll use a three piece mold as an exavple. For pewter casting, the period practice (and current state of the art in SCA nations east of the Rockies) was to pour lead pins through the mold pieces to keep it aligned while pouring the pewter. If you're aren't familiar with this, there are some really helpful pewter-mavins who have properly constructed period molds and cast with them in the shopping district at Pennsic. One of them (a laurel from Ealdemere, I believe) has a very nice pamphlet with drawings and such - I'd go and check it out there, since you're much closer to Pennsic than I! Anyway, about pins: you'll need them. Melted bronze is too damn hot to pour without pins. (If it hadn't been for the pins I had put in my very first stone mold - the one that blew up from explosive dehy- dration of hydrous silicate minerals - I and my casting buddy may have ended up injured badly instead of merely embarrassed.) Now, I've not come up with anything elegant, like the lead pins in a pewter mold, but my current solution works well enough for me. I use bronze machine screws and fittings - marine hardware quality bronze, in fact. Why? Well, first, pouring bronze in a mold held together with bronze isn't going to melt the screws and nuts. And marine bronze can tolerate thermal expansion and contraction a lot better than most steel hardware. Last, I lifted my marine bronze machine screws, washers and nuts off my Dad's hoard of boat hardware so it didn't cost me anything. The bronze screws work well with melted silver too (I've poured silver twice now into one of my stone molds) To put them into the mold, I drilled with my low-speed dremel a hole just slightly smaller than the diameter of the screw-threads. Then I carefully hand=threaded the screws into the rock. I like a four screw arrangement best. Two screws through the key pieces, and a screw apiece through each key piece into the base. I do attach a nut to each threaded screw - the thought of an uncontained steam-and-hot-metal explosion while casting in a new mold is not a happy one. Actually bolting the fool thing together will keep any inadvertant explosion contained mostly within the mold itself. For metals above 1000 C, I'm not going to trust just pins. A burn from pouring pewter can be really really nasty - but a burn from melted bronze could ruin the rest of your life. Bolt the mold together. Now, after actually bolting the mold together, I retract the screws just a little bit, so there's a small air gap between the key pieces and the base. With all the hardware attached, and with small airgaps between pieces, I put my new mold into my home oven, at 200 F (note the temperature scale change here! It's important) overnight. If it lives, I crank up the temperature to 300 F the next night, and then to 400 F. If it lives (the massive talc dies before I ever get it out of the house, the schist survives), then I take it into the craft center on campus and put it in one of the casting kilns - to bake at 500 C (temp scale just changed back to celsius!) overnight or until I'm ready to cast - whichever is longer. When I'm ready to cast, that morning I will turn up the heat so the mold will be approx 1000 C when I have my metal melted and ready to pour. I'm estimating the 1000 C based on the color of the fire bricks on the inside of the kiln I like best at the craft center. (After you play with melting rocks and metals, you get a feel for temp in a furnace based on color, instead of having to dig out the thermocouple and poking it through the hole on top of the furnace) This is my current procedure. It might be overkill, but the exploding dehydrating schist made a deep impression on me the first and only time I had a mold explode on me. And any phyllosilcate that's been cooked a while at 1000 C is going to suffer surface dehydration reactions and metamorphose into its anhydrous pyroxene equivalent (in general - any rockknockers who want to pit nicks, can do through email...). And the way to get any rock hot (not just a phyllosilicate-rich one) is to do it gradually. Baking a rock too fast is like microwaving cold out-of-a-can raviolli on high: it go BOOM and make a mess! So, to sum up in just a few words: don't use massive talc, bring your mold up to temperature in steps gradually, and make sure your mold achieves 1000 C before casting. And if you're not wearing a foundry mask, hood, sleeves, mitts and attached apron (and equiv on your legs and feet), you're going to get hurt. This is real pyrometallugy here; dress appropriately. Paranoia is a good thing to have around the melted "first-row" metals. Oh, and one last thing: this isn't investment casting - so don't throw the mold into a bucket of water to cool it down. Do that and it will explode if it's still hot. I've seen rocks explode from thermal stress - it's not a pretty sight, especially when you've seen the injuries that people can get from flying hot-rock shrapnel. What did they do in period? (I can hear someone ask!) Well, thus far I've been able to document repeat-use molds for high-temp casting made out of fired-clay (one mold with many pieces!, for casting multiple bronze buckles at one shot), sericitic schist for silver jewellry pieces, calcareous sandstone (again for bronze) and fine-grained limestone (bronze). There. That's all you're going to get out of me this evening! And now it's back to procrastinating cleaning my kitchen... ttfn, Twcs Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 18:38:56 -0500 From: theodelinda at webtv.net (linda webb) To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Viking scrolls--stonecarving Soapstone is _very_ Scandinavian, and there's a reason why it's called soapstone--it's almost that easy to carve. Quite a few of the big artists' suppliers, like Dick Blick, sell it in small pieces for sculpting. While it was mostly used in period for cooking vessels, why not use it for a "personal" runestone--like an AoA scroll Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:15:18 -0500 From: rockwallshire at webtv.net (Shared Account) To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Viking scrolls--stonecarving Re Soapstone: Try Nasco. They sell soapstone for reasonable prices; in the 1997 catalogue, they have it listed in ranges of $1.55 for a 1-2 lb piece through $10.20 for a 9-11 lb piece. They also carry a fun little kit called "Rocks in a Box" for about $25; this kit contains a small stone of amulet size, a larger stone about the size of your hand (or, at least, the hand of a 5'8" woman), and tools needed for carving. 1-800-558-9595. I use the Ft. Atkinson warehouse (especially since, until about a month ago, I lived within walking distance of it), but I think you'll want the Modesto, CA warehouse. They also have a web site: htttp://www.nascofa.com email: info at nascofa.com I hope this is helpful to you. I am, your servant, Merouda, writing through the Rockwall account. Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 00:38:57 -0400 (EDT) From: DianaFiona at aol.com To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Viking scrolls--stonecarving << > > Soapstone is _very_ Scandinavian, and there's a reason why it's called > soapstone--it's almost that easy to carve. <...> Yes, but my understanding from all I have heard about it is that it is quite expensive. Not that my project recipient isn't worth it:), but working in expensive new materials on a wild project like this is, would be foolish. Does anyone have info on fairly inexpensive soapstone? We are in Greeley, Colorado if that makes shipping or distance an issue. Thank you, Lughbec >> Oh, the *soapstone* isn't that bad---the shipping on the other hand......:-( Anyway the best place I know of to get it is Steatite of Southern Oregon--not bad for you in Colorado. Unfortunately I'm in Tennessee! You can contact them at: (503) 479-3646 (Phone or fax) 2891 Elk Ln Grants pass, Oregon 97527 Hope that helps......... Ldy Diana Fiona O'Shera Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 19:28:17 -0500 From: woodchucker at tbscc.com (Charles S. Myers) To: <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu> Subject: Re: soapstone sources? I sculpt and have numerous art supply scources Dick Blick at 1-800-828-4548 Artfully Lidia De Algarve---------- Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:18:26 -0500 From: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu> To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Soapstone styrbjorn at juno.com wrote: > Does anyone know where I can get relatively large chunks of soapstone? I > want to carve some cooking vessels like the ones the Vikings used. > Soapstone is supposed to be a natural non-stick surface. Wow, easy clean > up at wars.... > > Styrbjorn Ulfhamr http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Gallery/4821/CarvingPrimer/carvspsrcs.html Magnus Subject: Soapstone and Asebestos Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2000 13:59:31 -0800 From: Pat Reed <preed at sos.net> To: stefan at texas.net Stefan: I sent this to a couple other folks, who asked me to send it to you for inclusion in the Florigilleum, if you think it would be valuable. You have my permission if you choose to use it. Patricia of Leicester It seems I've confused everybody about soapstone and asbestos, so here's a little more coherent information: Soapstone is the massive form of talc, which is a metamorphic rock. If it was a volcanic rock originally, it may have chlorite, actinolite, epidote, and albite with it, and be converted to a greenschist. "Granites" with a larger percentage of heavy minerals (usually dark) will go to serpentines (a group of three minerals). If it was a sedimentary rock, like a dirty sandstone, it will have chlorite, muscovite (white mica), albite, and quartz with it, and form slates, phyllites, and fine-grained schists. If it was a rock with calcium, like a dolomite or limestone, it will have calcite, dolomite, tremolite, phlogopite (brown mica), epidote, and quartz. Clean quartz sandstone become quartzite, and dolomite or limestone goes to marble. The "prolith" or original rock is put under about 2 to 8 kilobars of pressure (about 5 to 20 kilometers depth of burial) and heated to between 300 and 400 degrees Celcius. This can be the result of subduction, regional metamorphism, or the emplacement of a granitic "pluton". This is referred to as the "greenschist facies" of metamorphism. These rocks are completely recrystallized, and usually are well foliated. They are very, very common. I've mentioned all of these minerals to show that "talc" is part of a spectrum of minerals that occur together. The minerals found in an outcrop or quarry can change over a distance of a few meters. The word "asbestos" actually refers to the form the mineral takes naturally, like the round "equant" shape of a natural garnet. Several types of minerals have this characteristic hairlike, flexible form. There are five minerals that are mined for "asbestos" used in commercial applications: chrysotile (one of the serpentine minerals), crocidolite (an asbestos form of riebeckite), anthophyllite (found with talc and serpentine), actinolite-tremolite (which are closely associated with talc), and cummingtonite-grunerite (which shows up at a higher temperature of metamorphism than talc). The fine fibers of asbestos can be inhaled, or get stuck in skin. The irritation this causes can lead to a variety of diseases. The amount of exposure is the critical factor in risk assessment. A "sanding" dust mask and goggles are absolutely necessary when working soapstone. So how do you know if the soapstone you're working on has any of these asbestos minerals? You can't, because the color and hardness are very similar in these minerals. If a you are buying from a quarry, ask them about the mineralogy. The State's Natural Resources department will often have that information too. Anders, you may have had a bit of pyrophyllite in that mold that exploded. It's associated with talc, but has more aluminum than iron. It's white, apple-green, gray, or yellow, and softer than talc. The name "pyro" refers to "fire" and "phyllon" means "leaf" because it falls apart like a stack of leaves when heated. It looks more like white mica than talc, but even my Mineralogy books say it's difficult to tell them apart. Notable occurrences in Norway: at Altemark, near Mo i Rana (close to a fjord, so accessible by longship), at Framfjord in the Sognefjord area, Otta and Kvam in Gudbrandsdalen southeast of Alesun (this is structural quality stone), and at Kodal (90 km south-southwest of Oslo). It also was quarried by the Vikings on the Shetland Islands according to one reference. In Sweden, the noted deposits are in the Garpenberg Odal field, southwest of the Kristineberg area, and at Ravlidmgran. My email program doesn't include Scandinavian notation, Anders, so I had to approximate the place names. Pat (Geologist) To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2001 21:19:51 -0400 Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Soapstone, was: Marble slabs From: Elizabeth A Heckert <spynnere at juno.com> If you do a search for New World Soapstone, they have a website for their soapstone. They are a soaptone quarry in Schuyler, VA, and their main production is for counters and floors. We went to get tailings (I needed loomweights) and talked to a gentleman who was making bowls out of the stone. Many warp-weighted looms' weights were actually broken soapstone pots. Soapstone was a main export from Scandinavia in the Viking era specifically for cook pots and lamps. Unlike the earthenware or clay pots, the soapstone can come in contact with the fire. When I went to pay for my bag o'rocks, I saw part of a price list. Almost $30.00/square foot for counter top. The main building there (dates from the Civil War era) was made of soapstone in the manner of the stone fences that don't use mortar. Very cool! Elizabeth Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 23:43:08 -0500 To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org From: Nicolas Steenhout <vavroom at bmee.net> Subject: Re: Re: [Sca-cooks] Marble slabs >Where do you get your carving stone? I am having a hard time finding soapstone >of the right softness. what I find will do, but I have hard time getting >deatil do to crystal sizes and hardness . . . . though my molds are nigh >inviceable :o) I'm not Stefan, but here's where I've ordered soap stone from a couple times. http://www.montoyasculpture.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=MSS&Category_Code=CSS If that doesn't come up properly, try http://www.montoyasculpture.com and weave your way to the soap stone section. Muiredach mac Loloig Rokkehealden Shire From: val_org at hotmail.com (Gunnora Hallakarva) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Soapstone? Date: 31 Dec 2001 06:09:33 -0800 >> Ralph Lindberg & Ellen Winnie wrote: >> I suggest that you buy it from a commercial source, possibly >> soapstone.com The reason is many soapstone deposits have asbestos. You >> don't really want to carve stone and free asbestos fibers. ruhl at latakia.dyndns.org (Robert A. Uhl) wrote: > Asbestos really isn't that nasty unless you're in the asbestos > business. Or carving it all the time. It wouldn't hurt to make a few > carvings, but if you're going to make a habit of it I'd recommend > against. Soapstone typically consists of 50 to 80 percent talc (Mg3Si4O10(OH)2) mixed with chlorite, serpentine, pyrite, quartz, calcite, magnesite, and dolomite. Some talc *may* contain asbestos -- generally not soapstone, nor the talc that's in almost every consumer product you use -- but the big problem in soapstone is the talc. Talc is carcinogenic (never mind that it's used in all cosmetics and a staggering number of consumer products). Chronic exposure to talc dust may result in benign or malignant pheochromocytomas of the adrenal gland, alveolar/bronchiolar adenomas, and carcinomas of the lung. In layman's terms, that's "lung cancer". Talc is also a phyllosilicate, which means that breathing the dust also puts you at risk for silicosis, a type of lung disease related to black-lung, asbestosis, etc. Silicosis is a disabling, nonreversible and sometimes fatal lung disease caused by overexposure to respirable crystalline silica, such as soapstone dust. There is no cure for the disease. The National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (CDC/NIOSH) defines the REL (Recommended Exposure Limit) for soapstone at 6 mg/m3 (total dust), 3 mg/m3 (respirable). For the official study of talc that was done to determine these standards, see: Toxicology and Carcinogenesis Studies of Talc http://ntp-server.niehs.nih.gov/htdocs/LT-studies/tr421.html See also: OSHA Soapstone Exposure Guidelines http://www.osha-slc.gov/dts/chemicalsampling/data/CH_267400.html http://www.osha-slc.gov/dts/chemicalsampling/data/CH_267395.html ACGIH [1971]. Soapstone. In: Documentation of the threshold limit values for substances in workroom air. 3rd ed. Cincinnati, OH: American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists, p. 232. Miller JW, Sayers RR [1941]. The response of peritoneal tissue to industrial dusts. Public Health Rep 56(1):264-272. SO, What does all this mean? It means that you should probably work your soapstone wet, to minimize dust, and also that you should wear a good quality mist mask, provide good dust-control and ventilation, etc. All the same recommendations made for carving antler apply with soapstone, but even more so because of the cancer risk. ::GUNNORA:: From: Bill Schongar <bschonga at cisco.com> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Soapstone? Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 09:26:50 -0500 Organization: Cisco Systems, Inc. > Where can you buy decent sopastone for pewter mold carving? Lee Valley/Veritas (www.leevalley.com). Besides being an excellent source for woodworking tools at low prices, they have a suprising variety of other stuff.. soapstone, one-piece spring scissors, book reprints, etc. They also have the advantage of being suprisingly cheap. -Liam (Who gets soapstone from Lee Valley all the time...) Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 13:58:14 -0500 From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd at gate.net> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Soap stone dishes & bowls - a question To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Was written: > During my afternoon shopping endevour to conquer the Evil Beast of Giftmas > Descending, I discovered that our Oxfam World shop have some lovely > soapstone dishes in stock. > > They're the perfect size to be used for drinking cups for my viking honey > but I wasn't sure if soapstone could be used for that sort of use. > > Can anyone advise me on this? - does soapstone react badly to such things as > mead or ale or ? Soapstone previously was much valued because it is non-reactive, resistant to high heat and easy to work. I work of the Florida Geological Survey and our building, specifically built for the Survey back in the early 50's has, in its older unrenovated portions still has soapstone sinks and countertops that have been proof against chemical spills for years. That being said I cannot say if the soapstone you have does not have an admixture of asbestos fiber in it. Daniel Date: Sun, 12 Dec 2004 22:19:12 -0500 From: "Ruth Tannahill" <rtanhil at fast.net> Subject: [Sca-cooks] soapstone To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> Daniel Phelps wrote: > Was written: >> During my afternoon shopping endevour to conquer the Evil Beast of Giftmas >> Descending, I discovered that our Oxfam World shop have some lovely >> soapstone dishes in stock. >> >> They're the perfect size to be used for drinking cups for my viking honey >> but I wasn't sure if soapstone could be used for that sort of use. >> >> Can anyone advise me on this? - does soapstone react badly to such things as >> mead or ale or ? >> > Soapstone previously was much valued because it is non-reactive, resistant > to high heat and easy to work. I work of the Florida Geological Survey and > our building, specifically built for the Survey back in the early 50's has, > in its older unrenovated portions still has soapstone sinks and countertops > that have been proof against chemical spills for years. That being said I > cannot say if the soapstone you have does not have an admixture of asbestos > fiber in it. > > Daniel Soapstone is, chemically speaking, really hard talc. It's magnesium silicate. Acids will etch it. In other words, ale and mead are fine. Wine, not really. It will certainly dull the finish, although any trace quantities dissolved in the wine are unlikely to be harmful. Also, keep in mind that anything carbonated contains carbonic acid. If left in the vessel long enough, it will etch the finish. I would not use anything soapstone as a storage vessel. As to the presence of asbestos, I cannot attest. I suppose it's possible. But please note that ingesting asbestos in trace quantities is no where near as harmful as inhaling it. Before you lot give me holy heck for that, let me quickly state that I would not recommend eating it, or eating out of anything that could possibly contain it. I'm merely observing that it has a less harmful effect on the digestive tract than it does on the lungs. Asbestos is really only harmful when particulate. As long as it's trapped in the matrix of the rock, it wouldn't get into the food even if it were there. As long as you didn't put acidic foods or beverages into the vessel. I would be more worried about the possibilities of heavy metals or trace organics in the mixture. Were the vessels listed as food safe? If so, they've been tested for harmful agents and are safe to use. If they were not listed as food safe, I would use discretion. For example: Pier 1 sells wooden chargers that are not food safe. The reason they are not food safe is that they have been finished with something that is not food safe. I would go ahead and put bread, fruit, or cheese on one, but I would not slurp up sauce off one. If it were me, I would go ahead and use them for ale or mead. But not for wine! Berelinde mundane chemist Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 08:53:49 -0600 From: Robert Downie <rdownie at mts.net> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Soapstone (was RE: Bread machine revisited) To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org> I get my soapstone locally (in Canada), convieniently cut into blocks (which we then slice with a bandsaw), from Lee Valley - the mecca of cool tools. http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=32712&cat=1,250,43298 They do mail order too, and they have so much cool stuff http://www.leevalley.com I've also seen it in larger art supply stores, but in HUGE irregular chunks more suitable for making sculptures than small casts. Faerisa Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2007 17:43:29 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemon syrup. To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org> Soapstone spreads heat evenly and well, so well that Tulikiva (I think that's spelled right) uses it in wood fired stoves designed for heating rooms. The big drawback is they, like ceramic tiles, can break easily. Bear > I've heard of soapstone griddles but have no experience in how > well they actually work. Hoecakes got their name from being cooked > on hoe blades or shovels. > > Gunthar Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 22:04:21 -0400 From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd at gate.net> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemon syrup. To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org> Was written: <<< Soapstone spreads heat evenly and well, so well that Tulikiva (I think that's spelled right) uses it in wood fired stoves designed for heating rooms. The big drawback is they, like ceramic tiles, can break easily. >>> My response: Soapstone, also know as steatite, is talc, a magnesium silicate. It is used for laboratory table tops and lab sinks as it is unattacked by acids. We have a number of both in our building. I do recall reading that it was and is traditionally used in wood stoves in Europe because of its heat retaining qualities. It is rather soft. Pure talc can be scratched with a finger nail. Daniel Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 14:54:51 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net> Subject: [Sca-cooks] Soapstone Re: Lemon syrup. To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org> > Soapstone, also know as steatite, is talc, a magnesium silicate. It is used > for laboratory table tops and lab sinks as it is unattacked by acids. We > have a number of both in our building. I do recall reading that it was and > is traditionally used in wood stoves in Europe because of its heat retaining > qualities. It is rather soft. Pure talc can be scratched with a finger nail. > > Daniel > > mka > Daniel C. Phelps, P.G. > Florida Geological Survey If I have the right of it, talc is hydrous magnesium silicate, which is deposited by sedimentation or hydrothermal injection. Talc is also used to describe the softest form of soapstone, a metamorphic rock consisting mainly of magnesium silicate with varying amounts and kinds of chlorite. Talc has a Moh's hardness of 1. Soapstone has a Moh's hardness varying between 1 and 3. Steatite is more commonly used to describe the harder varieties of soapstone which are used as countertops and heat sinks. Bear Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2007 20:27:29 -0400 From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd at gate.net> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Soapstone Re: Lemon syrup. To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org> Was written: <<< If I have the right of it, talc is hydrous magnesium silicate, which is deposited by sedimentation or hydrothermal injection. Talc is also used to describe the softest form of soapstone, a metamorphic rock consisting mainly of magnesium silicate with varying amounts and kinds of chlorite. Talc has a Moh's hardness of 1. Soapstone has a Moh's hardness varying between 1 and 3. Steatite is more commonly used to describe the harder varieties of soapstone which are used as countertops and heat sinks. >>> Hmmm... I was quoting, in the main from a rather old dog eared copy of Dana's Mineralogy. Per Dana, "...talc is a secondary mineral formed by the alteration of magnesium silicates, such as olivine, pyroxenes, and amphiboles, and may be found as pseudomorphs after these minerals. Characteristically in low-grade metamorphic rocks, where, in massive form, soapstone, it may make up nearly the entire rock mass. It may also occur as a prominent constituent in the schistose rocks, as in talc schist. In the United States many talc or soapstone quarries are located along the line of the Appalachian Mountains from Vermont to Georgia. The major producing states are California, North Carolina, Texas, and Georgia." Talc is of course a mineral while soapstone is a rock. As such soapstone is typically an admixture of several minerals with talc predominating. I can try and provide old world locations if anyone is interested. Daniel Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 14:03:33 -0400 From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd at gate.net> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Soap Stone To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org> Checked one of my European sources "The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Minerals and Rocks" by Dr. Jifi Kourfimsky. Per that: "Talc received its name from the Arabic language. The name of the compact to massive variety--steatite, is of Greek origin. It was a familiar mineral long ago. The so-called potstone (mixture of talc and chlorites) was chiefly used in the past for the manufacture of pots; the attractive coloured varieties of talc have always been a popular for making ornamental objects." Snip "Steatite (soapstone) frequently forms part of schistose rocks." Snip "Europe's largest deposits are in Italy and Austria. Talc is today chiefly used as a heat resisting raw material. for instance in the manufacture of fire-resistant ceramic material." Daniel Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 20:13:43 -0700 From: "Anne-Marie Rousseau" <dailleurs at liripipe.com> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Soapstone Re: Lemon syrup. To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>, "'SCA-Cooks maillist SCA-Cooks'" <SCA-Cooks at Ansteorra.org> On soapstone sources, our local pewterers guild has several online resources. You can check them out at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pewterersguild/links/ Supplies_001136519921/ one is Canadian, the other is in the states. we've also found stone at various art supply places but it tends to be full of inclusions. Blech! --Anne-Marie Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 22:45:15 -0500 From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Soapstone Re: Lemon syrup. To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org> Check on United Clays of Texas. They were listed as one of the ten domestic producers in 1998. Soapstone has been found near Canton and Bandera City. Bear > The only site I've heard of in Texas was a pile of soapstone from an > old train wreck within a few hours of Austin. Unfortunately it would > require trespassing on private land to get to it, I'm told. > > Stefan Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 19:24:10 -0400 From: Suey <lordhunt at gmail.com> Subject: [Sca-cooks] Soapstone To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org You have me a bit surprised on this subject as no one has brought up medieval Muslim use of soapstone pots which seemed to have been normal fare in the Arab world in medieval times. Perry points out that they were used as they did not change the flavor of or discolor food. He goes onto say that they are durable but can break due to physical shocks. Harisa and other foods that are beaten were not cooked in them. So some reason that I cannot remember they were never adapted in Spain during the occupation period. We used some other product for out pots and pans which I shall remember after consulting a pillow cause we had this big thing about throwing pots out after the first use. Was soapstone too expensive for us to do that then? Suey <the end> Edited by Mark S. Harris soapstone-msg Page 15 of 15