p-lathes-msg - 8/21/10

Period lathes. Use and construction. Turning bowls.

NOTE: See also the files: mkng-a-p-lathe-art, p-lathes-bib, Sharpng-Tools-art, Tool-Making-art, tools-msg, tools-bib, tools-lnks, woodworking-msg, wood-msg.

************************************************************************
NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

Thank you,
    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
************************************************************************

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 04:15:16 -0500
From: Gunnora Hallakarva <gunnora at bga.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Bow lathe

>From the SCA-Arts List:
>>Alright, alright, so how can I make a bow lathe that *works*? (I've tried,
>but couldn't do it right.

Your branch (the "bow") has to be about 12 feet long and needs to be green
or else it won't spring.  This has a rope attached to it, which is in turn
attached to a spindle which is attached to a treadle-driven flywheel.  You
pump the treadle with your foot, the rope winds onto the spindle drawing
the branch down, and in the process turns the lathe some number of
revolutions in one direction.  When you let your foot off the treadle the
natural spring of the branch reverses the process, and the lathe turns in
the opposite direction for however many revolutions.  So, unlike a modern
lathe, your work is not constantly spinning in one direction.  This means
that you have to develop a rhythm to your cuts.

Mistress Penelope Stoddard (PinneyLope at aol.com) here in Ansteorra has built
and worked with a bow lathe -- she had one set up and available for people
to try out as part of an arts display she did a couple of years ago.  If
you have questions about the process, you might wish to send a query to her.

Gunnora Hallakarva
Herskerinde


Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 07:21:35 -0500
From: Tom Rettie <tom at his.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Bow lathe

>>Alright, alright, so how can I make a bow lathe that *works*? (I've tried,
>but couldn't do it right.

You'll find discussion and illustrations of hand-powered lathes in three of
Roy Underhill's books: The Woodwright's Shop (0-8078-4082-3), The
Woodwright's Eclectic Workshop (ISBN 0-8078-4347-4), and The Woodwright's
Work Book (ISBN 0-8078-4157-9).  The last of these probably has the most
information for actually building one.

Fin


Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 13:52:48 -0400
From: John&Linda Elliott <drjnl at scescape.net>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Bow lathe again

Gunnora Hallakarva wrote:
>Your branch (the "bow") has to be about 12 feet long and needs to be green
>or else it won't spring.

I have seen this type of lathe in one of the Foxfire books as well,
complete with instructions on building and use.  Sorry, I don't remember
which book it was in.  I believe a live sapling was used in the
construction.

Siobhan Eliot


Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 19:18:37 -0400
From: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Bow Lathes

Charles sent me this a little while ago. He's not on the list.

Subject:  Re: bow lathes
   Date:  Thu, 27 Aug 1998 15:28:20 -0600
   From:  Charles Knutson <charles at historicgames.com>
Organization: Rose & Pentagram Design
          To: magnusm at ncsu.edu

-At least it has given me the incentive to put up some of the graphics I
have of early wood lathes. Although I haven't taken time to write up
sources and text, they can be found at:
http://www.historicgames.com/lathes/ancientlathes.html

Incidentally, I took the time to look at some of his products.
I imagine a number of folks would like them. My experience with him
is that he is a nice fellow. He sent me some scottish shoe patterns
when I first got in touch with him. I think I got in touch with him
on the renn list. http://www.historicgames.com/

Magnus, not affiliated.


From: Charles Knutson <charles at historicgames.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Early turning lathes
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 15:35:10 -0600
Organization: Rose & Pentagram Design

Someone (elsewhere in cyberspace) was recently asking about bow lathes,
and it has finally given me the reminder I needed to put up some
graphics I have showing various early wood lathes since I play around
with a foot-powered lathe myself. I haven't written up much in the way
of text, or sited my sources yet, but most of the graphics can be seen
at: http://www.historicgames.com/lathes/ancientlathes.html

Chas
MacGregor Historic Games
http://www.historicgames.com


From: Tanya Guptill <tguptill at teleport.com>
Organization: Sysco Food Services
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Early turning lathes
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 23:58:28 GMT

There is also a nice illustration on 
http://www.ftech.net/~regia/woodwork.htm

Mira


From: Esther Heller <munged_name at kodak.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Early turning lathes
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 10:47:25 -0400
Organization: Eastman Kodak Company

Charles Knutson wrote:
> Someone (elsewhere in cyberspace) was recently asking about bow lathes,
> and it has finally given me the reminder I needed to put up some
> graphics I have showing various early wood lathes since I play around
> with a foot-powered lathe myself. I haven't written up much in the way
> of text, or sited my sources yet, but most of the graphics can be seen
> at: http://www.historicgames.com/lathes/ancientlathes.html
> 
> Chas

Nice!  For a slightly OOP example my I suggest my page? (slightly 
different meaning of "bow").  This was built in a weekend workshop 
run by Don Weber, a Welshman living in Mendocino CA who is one of 
a group of people trying to document and keep alive the British 
woodland crafts.  It is based on an article he wrote for American 
Woodworker Oct 1996 which was "how to build a lathe with stuff 
available from a home center for about US$40".  The article used 
a bungee cord instead of the bow.  Both Don and Roy Underhill cite
Plumier in 1701 as the source, haven't seen the original yet, but 
it is supposedly in the rare book collection of a local college.

This is the lathe that was on Fletcher Rd at Pennsic for those who 
are curious.  The longest parts are 5 feet long and it breaks
down to fit in a Honda Civic hatchback....

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/8862/galoot.htm

Esther Heller eoh at kodak dot com


Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 02:57:59 -0400
From: Melanie Wilson <MelanieWilson at compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu" <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Bow lathes

I think the 12 ft one you are talking of is what we in the UK and
traditional bodgers would call a pole lathe ? There are, as far as I know,
2 types of bow lathe a Large and a Small. The Large is similar to the pole
but has a bow as the driver, it is tredle(foot) opperated, the small can fit
on a bench it is opperated by hand and is easier to transport.

The bow on the small is made like an archery bow, from seasoned wood not=

green. The Large bow is also made from seasoned wood, although someone
suggests you make two bows when you start as you will want to play with it
ASAP and by the time the first gives out the second will be ready seasoned
for use.

I have done a diagram of the small, which I hope to get on to a web page
this weekend.

For anyone really interested in this side may I suggest you think about
joining the Bodgers Assn in the UK, I think they might even have members in
the US, anyway you can learn alot about traditional woodcrafts from them.

Mel


From: Chas <charles at historicgames.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Early wood turning site
Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 19:45:44 -0600
Organization: Rose & Pentagram Design

I've just updated some pages I set up with images of early turning
machines. It's located at
http://www.historicgames.com/lathes/ancientlathes.html

I'm also toying with the idea of setting up a bulletin board connected
to it for users of historical lathes since rec.crafts.woodturning seems
to be all motorized turners. Feel free to let me know if you are
interested in such a bulletin board.

-Chas
-- 
MacGregor Games
Purveyors of historic pastimes to re-enactors around the world
http://www.historicgames.com


From: Esther Heller <munged_name at kodak.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Early wood turning site
Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 10:45:01 -0400
Organization: Eastman Kodak Company

Chas wrote:
> I've just updated some pages I set up with images of early turning
> machines. It's located at
> http://www.historicgames.com/lathes/ancientlathes.html
> 
> I'm also toying with the idea of setting up a bulletin board connected
> to it for users of historical lathes since rec.crafts.woodturning seems
> to be all motorized turners. Feel free to let me know if you are
> interested in such a bulletin board.

Well before we have too much duplication of effort, may I point out 
some resources already available?

1.  The oldtools listserv.  This is a spinoff from rec.woodworking 
several years ago, when the hand tool community (Neanderthals) 
felt unwelcome by the power toolers (Normites from Norm Abrams).
It is archived at 

http://mailmunch.law.cornell.edu/mhonarc/OLDTOOLS

and it is recommended that one monitor the web site for a while 
before subscribing.  There are about 1,000 members and several 
are gentles.  If you have no web access email me for the FAQ.  Most
of the tools discussed are post period (Stanley planes) but there 
are users of everything and periodic discussions on how to make your 
own tools, all of which are of SCA interest.  It is also the best 
place I know of to find out how to _do_ something.  Strongly 
recommended for all potential members of the interkingdom woodworking
guild.  They and we are on the same page.

2. The Electronic Neandethal  This is the grandaddy of all hand tool
websites, and has links to essentially eveything else available that
the owner knows about, and many people feed the owner Neat New Links.

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~alf/en/en.html

If you set up a bulletin board I would suggest telling the Electronic
Neanderthal owner so that he can set up a link. But I think there 
would be far more efficient information transfer if those interested
connected to the larger handtool community of oldtools.  There is 
also a side list of about a dozen people on the oldtools listserv who 
are building/have built foot powered lathes that discuss _details_ 
of stuff like how to connect your treadle to the wheel....   

Note that the automatic reply is munged.

Otelia d'Alsace 
mka Esther Heller eoh at kodak dot com


Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 14:19:34 -0500
From: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Some parts of a discussion on Lathe Books

Charles and I trade information back and forth, and he sends some to
the Arts list through me, so I don't think he'll mind my sharing this
with you. Most of it is my citations.

Subject: Lathe Books
Chas wrote:
> rmhowe wrote:
> > Sobel machinery  at  201-768-9645 Dave Sobel has at least 50 jeweler's
> > lathes and probably several thousand collets of various sizes......
> > no web site. Sells used machinery too.
> > This guy is _the_ jewelers / clockmakers lathe specialist as far as
> > I have learned from the newsgroups and has an excellent reputation.
>
> -Actually I was thinking about making a period-style clockmakers lathe
> -Driven by a bow pumped back and forth by hand like a bow drill. Do
> -you think he might be able to point me in the right direction for
> -that?

Can't say for sure, see lower citations:

> I've been thinking it would be more portable than the spring-pole I've
> used for demonstrations at re-enactment events.
>
> Chas
> --
> MacGregor Games
> Purveyors of historic pastimes to re-enactors around the world
> http://www.historicgames.com

There was also a book about twenty years ago on a family workshop
of clockmakers, cabinetmakers, furniture and such that survived intact
from the eighteenth and early 19th centuries, several generations.
I believe it was entitled By Hammer and Hand. I think the Henry
Ford Museum may have bought the shop entire as it was a one of a kind
survival. I think that is a very good possiblility for your clock
making lathe pictures. Wish I could remember the name of the
family, similar to Tammany but I know that is not it. I don't have that
particular book myself. I suggest Inter Library Loan.

You know I was just thinking that you ought to get copies of Diderot's
Pictorial Encyclopedia of Trades and Industy from Dover Publishing
ISBN 0-486-27429-2 and 27428-4. They show all sorts of machiery
including some fairly advanced lathes from pre-revolutionary France
in great detail. Probably about $45 for the pair which are about 2 1/2"
thick combined. Nearly all illustrations. I looked and there are no
clockmaker's lathes per se. There are a number of other types.
Goldsmith's for example. Volume one was $19.95, volume two was $22.95.
485 plates. Over 2000 illustrations. Fantastic Books.

BTW. Parts of Diderot are also on the market independently from the
two volume set that Dover Books sells, but they cost about $20 a piece
and you'd end up spending several times as much as if you bought the
Dover set. Don't be fooled into doing that. You should be very happy
with the Dover set. I am. And it should be in print.

Dover Publications, Inc.
31 East 2nd St.
Mineola, New York 11501-3582
No phone listed. $5 postage for any order.

The Book of Trades by Jost Amman (Standebuch)
has pictures of gemcutters, woodturners, pewterers, etc. 1568.
Also from Dover 0-486-22886 dunno current price.

Theophilus' On Divers Arts contains a number of instructions and
illustrations of early lathes for such stuff as bellfounding
and pewterturning. Circa 1122.
Dover ISBN 0-486-23784-2

Roman Crafts edited by Donald Strong and David Brown has pictures
of a conjectural Roman lathe for turning metalwork. ISBN 0715607812
probably out of print. Duckworth, The Old Piano Factory, 43 Glocester
Crescent, London, NW1 7DY. My edition is 1976.

Magnus


Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 12:51:55 -0500
From: Tom Rettie <tom at his.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Some parts of a discussion on Lathe Books

>Charles and I trade information back and forth, and he sends some to
>the Arts list through me, so I don't think he'll mind my sharing this
>with you. Most of it is my citations.

...snip...

One I found recently is in "Venus and Mars, The World of the Medieval
Housebook" (the book for the museum exhibit of the same name that leaves DC
this weekend and is headed to New York). There is a great period
illustration of a lathe circa 1480.  It's also the earliest illustration
I've found of wooden screws used in shop fixtures (I've also found a German
illustration of a workbench face vise circa 1505).

Fin
--------------------------------------------------------------
Tom Rettie                                         tom at his.com
Heather Bryden                                 bryden at hers.com
--------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 08 Apr 2004 23:24:54 -0400
From: rmhowe <MMagnusM at bellsouth.net>
Subject: [SCA-AS] Lathe Pages
To: - Authenticity List <authenticity at yahoogroups.com>,	- BARONY of
	WINDMASTERS'	HILL <keep at windmastershill.org>, - Dunstan
	<Dunstan at yahoogroups.com>,	- Manx <TheManx at yahoogroups.com>, -
	Medieval Sawdust	<medievalsawdust at yahoogroups.com>, - Regia Anglorum -
	North America	<list-regia-na at lig.net>, - SCA Arts and Sciences 7/03
	<Artssciences at lists.gallowglass.org>

<<< I just started a new page on my turning website based on notes I 
making from a biography of a 17th century London turner: 
http://historicgames.com/lathes/wallington.html

Chas
--
MacGregor Historic Games
http;//www.historicgames.com >>>

If you go to the above site you will see a number of pages
on lathes. I think it's interesting that he uses a bow
lathe to make lace bobbins of bone.

Charles and I occaisionally exchange notes on lathes.
He does html and I do ascii redactions of various
medieval techniques.

Master Magnus, OL, Great Barony of Windmasters' Hill [SCA],
regia.org, the Manx, Great Dark Hordebrother


From: Chas <webmaster at NOSPAMhistoricgames.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Wood turning site
Date: Wed, 05 May 2004 13:00:44 GMT

Just a note to say I've been updating my website on man-powered lathes
http://www.historicgames.com/lathes/lindex.html In addition to more 
illustrations of early lathes I found a biography of a 17th Century 
London Wood Turner and have started making notes about the trade that 
I've been able to glean from that work.

Chas
-
MacGregor Historic Games
http://www.historicgames.com


From: rmhowe <mmagnusm at bellsouth.net>
Date: October 5, 2005 8:10:20 PM CDT
To: - Stephan's Florilegium <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com>, - SCA-ARTS <artssciences at lists.gallowglass.org>
Subject: The Reading Lathe

There is a smallish book but fairly easily understood
and somewhat scholarly. Probably descended from a thesis
at the University of Reading in England.

The last true full-time chair bodger/bowl-turner in the
foot driven medieval style practised up until 1937, was
well documented [along with others] and his lathe rests
today in the Reading Museum. The booklet contains his
lathe from a number of views and plan drawings, pictures
and discussion of medieval turning, various mandrels,
bowls turned in multiples in nests, ladles turned, platters
turneed, not too much on tools.

A discussion of Anglo-Saxon pre-Conquest steels for turning
and knives being very much superior to tested Roman and Norman
period knives and turning tools. Many pictures from medieval
texts and the famous stained glass window that shows a turner.
Smallish book but quite readable. I do not take everything he
said as gospel as he was an academic not a craftsman but for
the new turner it might prove useful.

Dixon, Philip H.
Title is The Reading Lathe: A Link with the Anglo-Saxon Migration
Cross Pub. 1994 Rev Trade paperback Good. No dust jacket.

Master Magnus, OL; SCA/Manx/Great Dark Horde
Great Barony of Windmasters' Hill [east central NC, USA]


Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 21:34:06 -0400
From: Bob Howe <mmagnusm at bellsouth.net>
Subject: [SCA-AS] Make a Pole Lathe from a Tree Trunk
To: - Authenticity List <authenticity at yahoogroups.com>, 	- BARONY of
	WINDMASTERS' HILL <keep at windmastershill.org>,	-
	Historic-HornAntlerBone <Historic-HornAntlerBone at yahoogroups.com>, 	-
	Manx <TheManx at yahoogroups.com>,	- SCA-ARTS
	<artssciences at lists.gallowglass.org>, 	- StellarArts
	<StellarArts at yahoogroups.com>

Woodwork, A Magazine for All Woodworkers #73 - Feb. 2002
has an article on Robin Wood of UK Medieval recreation
woodturning fame (he does stuff full time) visiting a woodturning
demonstration in Germany with a bagful of tools and producing a
pole lathe out of a mostly 10" by 6' oak trunk. There is a subsequent
article on making hooked gouges to turn with by him. The only things
in the photos that seems to be missing in explanation is the spring
pole and there is no indication of the construction of the cord wound
mandrel which he is using to turn the bowls with. Such things are
covered in the York Book on Woodworking Crafts available from
the York Archaeological Trust.

The article runs from page 24 to page 31 so it's larger than most.
There is also a couple article in it on Rumanian spoon carving and
one that contains some gothic carving including a pretty gothic chest.
Woodwork No. 73
ISSN # 1045-3040
(published by Ross Periodicals, Inc.
42 Digital Drive #5, Novato CA 94949)
woodwork at rossperiodicals.com  http://www.rossperiodicals.com/
Woodwork Magazine
(415) 382-0580
P.O. Box 1529, Ross, CA 94957

Magnus


Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 21:18:40 -0500
From: "Sharon Gordon" <gordonse at one.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] The Wooden Bowl by Robin Wood
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

      This new book is the first authoritative account of the history of the wooden bowl. It details evidence of the turners craft dating back 4000 years and looks at the development of lathe technology, as well as the tools and timbers used.  
        
      Extracts from Medieval account books show the wide range and vast quantity of work turners produced and even how much they were paid. Many examples of their work recovered from excavations show the vessels from which our ancestors ate and drank and how the forms changed through the centuries.  

http://www.robin-wood.co.uk/book.htm


Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2009 19:56:09 +1100
From: "Bruce S. R. Lee" <bsrlee2 at pacific.net.au>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] Woodturning A&S Class at Canterbury Faire
To: lscampbell at xtra.co.nz,	"The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list"
	<lochac at lochac.sca.org>

If you are interested in early turning with a pole lathe, I'd 
strongly suggest you get a copy of the York Archeological Trust's 
book on wooden artifacts - I think its still in print - about 20% of 
the book is experimental archeology on turning with a pole lathe, 
tools, mass production techniques based on the finds, all that sort 
of stuff ;-) There is also a fair bit about barrels and other 
artifacts. No, I'm not going to send you my copy either ;-P

regards
Brusi of Orkney
Rowany/Lochac


Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 19:06:07 +1300
From: "L S Campbell" <lscampbell at xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] Woodturning A&S Class at Canterbury Faire
To: lochac at lochac.sca.org

From: tamara at suncrow.com
<<< The purpose of this message is to canvas the level of interest in such
classes in people who intend to be at Canterbury Fair, so that I can
sort out the necessary logistics. >>>

I'd be keen.  Can you turn antler on these things, or just wood ?
------------

I have seen video of a small bow lathe used for turning bone.

In principle, I think that a pole lathe _could_ be used for antler.  The key 
detail would be in the cutting tools being used (size, shape, profile, etc).  My 
experience is that "conventional" (=powered lathe) turning chisels do not 
perform wonderfully well on a pole lathe, through a combination of subtle 
factors, not particularly related to the quality of the tools.

There's nothing like giving it a whirl to find these things out!

Lowrens

<the end>
Edited by Mark S. Harris	p-lathes-msg	11 of 11