lapidary-msg - 6/9/09 Period and SCA gemstone cutting. NOTE: See also the files: A-Lapidary-art, gem-sources-msg, amber-msg, jewelry-msg, pearls-msg, beads-msg, beadwork-msg, coronets-msg, PW-Jewelry-Box-art. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: jjohns at tc3net.com Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Period lapidary techniques Date: 19 Aug 1996 17:24:05 -0700 Does anyone know of sources for period lapidary techniques besides Theophilus? His info is ok, but I'd like some alternatives to prepping rock crystal by warming it in goat's blood - you get the idea. Any more practical info would be most welcome. Thank you Alasdair MacRaibert a'dun Alasdair (Tom Johnson) jjohns at tc3net.com From: ddfr at aol.com (DDFr) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period lapidary techniques Date: 20 Aug 1996 14:23:03 -0400 Alasdair asks: "Does anyone know of sources for period lapidary techniques besides Theophilus? His info is ok, but I'd like some alternatives to prepping rock crystal by warming it in goat's blood - you get the idea. Any more practical info would be most welcome. Thank you" 1. You are unfair to Theophilus. He also describes practical techniques for shaping and polishing stones, including the use of powdered emery, attaching the stone to a dop stick with something rather like modern dopping cement, etc. 2. Take a look also at Cellini's _Art of Goldsmithing and Sculpture_ or something close to that title. He certainly discusses "improving" stones by making colored foils to put behind them; I don't remember if there is anything on actually cutting the stones. David/Cariadoc From: Alasdair MacRaibert Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period lapidary techniques Date: 21 Aug 1996 19:18:58 -0700 In article , ddfr at aol.com says... >1. You are unfair to Theophilus. He also describes practical techniques >for shaping and polishing stones, including the use of powdered emery, >attaching the stone to a dop stick with something rather like modern >dopping cement, etc. Your Grace Cariadoc, The reference to Theophilus was made as a poor joke. When I read 'On Divers Arts', I made a joke with my lady on how they would accept carving of rock crystal by his methods at a kingdom A&S competition and whether it would be considered a science or a performing art. :-} I do intend to try his recipe for chaser's pitch and his grinding techniques. >2. Take a look also at Cellini's _Art of Goldsmithing and Sculpture_ Thank you for the reference and I will take a look at it the first chance I get. I have two other possible references if you're interested. The first comes from a Dover edition book called ' The Book Of Trades' which shows a series of wood cuts published in 1568. One of the pictures is of a gem cutter using a treadle powered rock grinder, but has no text description of methods. The other reference is more empirical. In the July 1990 edition of National Geographic, they have an article on emeralds. In that article they show a scene from modern day India and a row of bow driven rock grinders in use. I would assume that this design might be a predecessor to a treadle powered machine. There seems to be very little research or period reference on the subject of lapidary. If you should come across any other information, I would appreciate the information. Thank you, Alasdair MacRaibert/Tom Johnson From: ddfr at aol.com (DDFr) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period lapidary techniques Date: 22 Aug 1996 22:13:42 -0400 On the subject of period lapidary techniques. All of the following is from memory; I am travelling and my library is not. 1. I believe water driven wheels are recorded at Idar-Oberstein a little before 1600. 2. Traditional Persian technology (not necessarily period) used a bow driven lathe. So does modern Indian; I have one, although I have not used it. So did classical technology, at least for gemstone carving. So I think a bow driven lathe is a fair guess for period Islamic technology. 3. One question I do not know the answer to is whether the bow driven lathe turned in one direction, with the operator raising or lowering the bow to release the tension for strokes in the opposite direction (which seems the obvious way to me), or whether it was reciprocating, which seems to be the way that the somewhat similar spring lathe works. 4. Traditional Persian technique also uses a pump drill; I have seen it done in Isfahan. I suspect that is period also, although I can't prove it. It could be used for drilling and, perhaps, engraving gemstones. 5. You might want to look at my old article on gemstones, published long ago in T.I. but also in the Miscellany that Elizabeth and I publish, which is also accessible (minus the figures) on the web. David/Cariadoc From: zarazena at io.com (Vicki Marsh) To: ansteorra at eden.com Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 11:00:56 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Good Enough? (Was Using Sigrid Eiriksdottir wrote: >I will do what I can for documentation at Laurel's prize tourney. Maybe >someone there can point me to a reference or two. Sigrid, do you have a public or university library nearby? When I live in Austin, I know there were quite a few books in their libraries about lapidary and jewelry, as I often did a lot of the research on jewelry-making for my ex-husband. Also, some of the jewelry and lapidary shops will have some books (like Dyers in Austin). Sometimes, the How-to books are a place to start, as they often have some history of the craft in the introduction. If so, look at their bibliography/references, for the next place to look. Keep looking Zara Zina From: afn03234 at freenet2.afn.org (Ronald L. Charlotte) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period Lapidary Sources... Date: 2 Nov 1996 06:01:02 GMT susankford at aol.com (SusanKFord) wrote: > Does anyone have any books or other sources on period lapidary. I can do > it with modern tools, but would like to know how it was done B>E> > (before electricity...) The one with the most useful information is _On Divers Arts_ by Theophilus (ISBN 0 486 23784 2). It's widely available in Dover reprint. Others include a smattering of info in _The Treatises of Benvenuto Cellini on Goldsmithing and Sculpture_ (ISBN 0 486 21568 7). There are a few others with small bits and pieces, and there is supposed to be a Renaissance treatise on lapidary, but I've not found it yet. -- al Thaalibi ---- An Crosaire, Trimaris Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL afn03234 at afn.org From: william thomas powers Subject: Re: Estrella Dust To: markh at risc.sps.mot.com (Mark S. Harris) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 09:56:47 -0500 (EST) > What's a "cab"? I'm assuming it is a cap of some type. I thought at > first this was a mis-spelling but you wrote it this way several times. Sorry, a bit of jargon there---"Cab" is short for "Cabochon" which is a style of gem cutting. Instead of having flat facets the stone has a smooth dome shape---much more a pre-renaissance cut for stones. In this case the smooth domed quartz crystal provides a "window" to protect the item in the reliquery but allow it to be seen. (There are several ways of mounting them everything from soldering in a bezel to using an engraver to raise an edge. wilelm the smith Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:37:54 -0600 From: Kathleen Keeler To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: most usual semi-precious gems? Anna Troy wrote: > Well I've started to work on my circlet and I was planning on adding som > small semi-precious carbochons. Which stones are no-no's for the 14th > century? Were any more popular than the other or was it still the mish-mash > that I've seen in earlier medieval work. I was planning on blue, red and > maybe green stones depending on weither it will be 4 or more. > > Anna de Byxe Modern stones are separated by chemistry--since in Period they didn't have that tool, they mixed up some stones we distinguish: rubies and ruby-like garnets were not separable, for example. Likewise, some of the natural glasses and quartzes, when colored like emeralds (or other stones) were mistaken. If there was faceting (ie if the precious gem had a different number to faces than quartz) or hardness differences--they didn't make mistakes. See Cariadoc's Miscellany (online see SCA home page). Avoid jade (not mentioned in Period lapidaries) The Early English Text Society has a volume (#190, 1933) which reprints 7 Medieval English lapidaries. They are all based on Continental lapidaries, are derivative and repetitious. Green stones mentioned in addition to malachite include jasper, phrase, selenite, red include heliotrope, hyacinth, sard. I'd characterize it as "lore of precious stones" but it gives some sense of what stones they knew and used. I did a composite translation of the information in the lapidaries- not so much scholarly as entertaining, I understand a scholarly translation is in progress -- from the very difficult English of the originals to modern English. If you would like I can email you the text (its maybe 10 typed pages.) The original is better, but much more difficult to read and not very easily available (big university libraries and ILL). Agnes deLanvallei, Mag Mor, Calontir Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 21:34:50 -0700 From: Twcs To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Sunstone/Iceland Spar/Andalucite When is comes to equating a classical or medieval name of a rock to a modern mineral, one needs to tread carefully. Nowadays, we usually associate one mineral name to one distinct crystalline form of an inorganic compound. For example, rhombahedral calcium carbonate is calcite, whereas orthorhombic calcium carbonate is aragonite. Aragonite is what pearls are made of, by the way. In the middle ages, however, rock names were assigned on the basis of physical properties, usually color and/or chemical action. For example, both colorless topaz (Al2SiO4(F,OH)2) and diamond would be called adamant. Similarly, the common hydrous sulfates of iron, zinc and copper could all be used to make sulfuric acid, and therefore were called green, white and blue vitriol respectively. Alum is the worst, actually. Medievally, practically every white hydroxenated or hydrous aluminum sulfate which occured naturally and made a sweet-sour astingent solution when dissolved was called and used as alum. There are over 20 modern minerals which medievally were used as alum. (So if you've ever been confused by medieval shipping records which differentiate between Egytpian or Tuscan alum, know you know why...) Unfortunately, threre's a great deal of confusion still concerning the use of gem names. Yellow topaz is also called citrine, but so is yellow quartz. Occasionally, yellow quartz is passed off as topaz. Cat's eye, a variety of crysoberyl is often confused with tiger's eye, a quartz replacement of fibrous crocidolite. There are many more examples. The ones that really get me fired up are when someone tells me about a "red sapphire" or a "blue emerald," especially in context of buying gems or jewellry. Sapphires are by definition the blue variety of corundum, and emeralds are the green variety of beryl. Red sapphires, blue emeralds and their like are often either marketting ploys or cases of outright fraud. Basically, correctly identifying a medieval rock name with a modern mineral is a mess. I find it frustrating, and I do min id professionally. I can't imagine what it must be like for folks who aren't rock geeks. I'll give those who are interested a foot up, however: if you can find a seventh or EARLIER edition of Dana's Manual of Mineralogy, you will find that each mineral entry contains a history of what is was named and by whom, including classical and medieval sources. The early editions of Dana, however, are all nineteenth century, so they're hard to find (try a university library - that's where the copy I use is located). The Hoover and Hoover commentary to Argicola's De Re Metallica is also helpful (it's included as part of their translation of Agricola, and is available from Dover books). ttfn, Twcs Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 15:57:45 -0400 From: Warren & Meredith Harmon To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Caro's List of Gem Books Here is my recommended list of books - your mileage, of course, will vary. Opinions expressed are only my own. I hope they help.... The Audubon Society Field Guide to North American Rocks and Minerals, Charles W Chersterman, is a good field guide for those like me who like to go digging in the field. The pictures are excellent, definitions, locations, etc. It was my first rock/mineral book, and I consider it my best book. For a specification in gems, even though it's a little on the easy side...Eyewiness Handbooks' Gemstones: The Visual Guide to More Than 130 Gemstone Varieties, by Cally Hall. ISBN 1-56458-498-4. This is the book I carry when selling gems, because it can explain to almost everyone what they are looking at...or what they may want. It's arranged by color *and* composition, which is quite handy! Unfortunately, some of the remarks are a bit generalistic for Scadians...I keep asking myself, "yeah, I know the Egyptians used fluorite to carve scarabs, but how, why, and what location did they get it from?!?" But *excellent* pictures of faceted and carved and cabbed gems, with pics of some famous gems through history. For pictures alone, most of them period...Gemstones, published by Streling Publishing Co, New York. Excellent shots of some of the more exquisite jewelry pieces through history (one of these days I *will* duplicate that Sumerian crown!!!). ISBN 0-8069-6834-6. For those with a more chemical mind...Minerals and Gemstones of the World, by G Brocardo. It's a Naturetrek Guide, ISBN 0-7153-0197-7. Each mineral has a chemical analysis, but it's written with the layman in mind (which I appreciate, even though I have a chemical background.)The charts at the bottom of each page give a quick visual of the chemical properties of each item...including clevage, hardness, color, mineral class, specific gravity, fusibility, occurrence, luster, solubility, use, preservation (which is great for display cases!) powder color, flame color, toxicity, etc. Each overleaf can be folded so you can have a side-by-side comparison with the page you're interested in. Excellent stuff! Now for those who are more interested in the metaphysical properties...Love is in the Earth: A Kaleidoscope of Crystals Updated by Melody. ISBN 0-9628190-3-4. Almost every rock, gem, and mineral known to mankind is in here, but I have some caveats: 1) It's written as if you actually know a little about mineralology, 2) You have to take one person's word for what's written - it's difficult to corroborate metaphysical info, 3) It doesn't use standardized names...black agate from one location is given a different name than black agate from another location. Of course, this ticks me off royally, but they at least attempt to use location prefixes to the names...well, sometimes.... 4) Some of these rocks you won't find outside someone's imagination. And, here's my general caveat: whether or not you believe in the metaphysical properties of rocks and minerals, please treat them as you would any other medical item. Some people *will* have allergies, and some people will *not* react as the book says. Please keep that in mind, and treat people and rocks alike with respect and caution. Okay, my lecture's over. Also, for those thinking about getting into collecting or just want more info: if yo uhave a Border's or a Barnes & Noble or a Feed & Read Bookstore or...well, okay, you get the point - go and browse through their rock & mineral section. You may find one that suits you quite well, and you get to thumb through them yourself. That's what I did, and I came up with these "gems" (heh!) on my own. But, good luck, and happy hunting! -Caro (herkimer hunting in four weeks!!!!) Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 18:04:41 -0700 (PDT) From: H B To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Arab Roots of Gemology In the current issue of _Gems & Gemology_, there is a book review of a new English translation of _Best Thoughts on the Best of Stones_ by Ahmad ibn Yusuf al Tifaschi (1184-1254), translated with comments by Samar Najm Abul Huda, Scarecrow Press, Lanham, MD, 1998 US$45.00. Review is excerpted here. -- Harriet "One important aspect of gemology is the history of gemstones. Unfortunately, a wealth of early works have been lost to modern gemologists, as evidenced by the number of gem references sited in Pliny's first-century encyclopedia that have disappeared without a trace. Although much of the knowledge possessed by ancient Greece and Rome was preserved by Arabic writers, for the most part such works remain inaccessible to all but the few western scholars who have learned Arabic. "This compilation offers a fascinating glimpse at ancient gemology, according to the book _Best Thoughts on the Best of Stones_, by Ahmad ibn Yusuf al Tifaschi (1184-1254). Its translation marks the first time that early Arab gemological literature has been studied by a modern Arab gemologist. Mrs. Huda is a competent translator who has endeavored to make the contents of this pioneering work easily accessible to English-speaking readers. She aimed the book at 'all readers interested in gemology, mineralogy, jewelry, history, Arab heritage, Islamic art, and the history of science.' In the reviewers' opinion, she has accomplished her goals with great success...." "...includes a glossary of gem names in English with their ancient and modern Arabic names...places al Tifaschi's work in context by describing the era in which he wrote and the nature of the Arabic literature on gems from the eighth to the 13th centuries....explains the monetary terms, weights, and measures employed at that time...." "For each gemstone, al Tifaschi briefly describes how the gem is formed; its localities, qualities, characteristics, benefits (mostly medicinal and talismanic), and prices; and, in some cases, its lapidary treatment...." reviewed by Si and Ann Frazier, Lapidary Journal Correspondents Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 02:35:58 -0400 From: Warren & Meredith Harmon To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Rose-Cut Garnets As far as my research shows, the only cuts used in period were cabbing (for any gem they could get their hands on) and some tabling of diamond crystals around mid to late 15th cent. From what I've been told, and seen in museums, the rose cut is just a smidge OOP. I haven't gotten my mitts on good pics of the Crown Jewels, though, and my bet is that if anyone has it, it's them - England had quite a nice pipeline to India for good gems for awhile. Also, let me check a Natl Geographic mag from a while ago - they actually got some Shahs to open up the coffers, so I'll see if anything's visible there. Cameos, intaglios, beads, cabs...hmm, no faceting besides tabling... (.....) Okay, just checked: *Some* of the emeralds in the Iran Crown Jewels **may** have been tabled, with a few side factes thrown in for effect. A rough emerald cut, if you will. There is *one* good picture from the Zucker Ring Collection (he collects "antique" rings) that shows what looks to be a ruby, and it's **roughly** emerald cut (tabled, then four rough angles that go below the bezel). I'm pretty sure the ring in the middle shows a diamond crystal mounted as is, and there's a ring at the bottom of the pic that shows 7 cabbed garnets or amethysts. Another shows a rough-set opal, and another a cabbed lapis, and another is carved straight from lapis and sports a seated ram - Etruscan, IMO. One ring may *possibly* show a heart-shaped garnet set in a gold hand, but that ring looks to be Victorian in age. Most of the Zucker Collection is Arabic, Jewish, and Middle East rings...except for the hand ring, and the carved carnelian ring it's resting on, the rings in the pic don't look to be any later than the 1400's. If you want to see this pic (great ref), check out Smithsonian Magazine, July 1997, Vol 28 No 4, page 73. And, if ANYBODY gets their hands on some of those orange pearls, GET ME ONE!!!!!!!! -Caro Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 22:30:35 -0500 (CDT) From: To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Rose Cut Garnets Rose cut is documentable to the 16th cen. But from what, I have seen, only diamonds were rose cut. There is plenty of documentation for faceting of stones from at least the 13th cen. But the facets are not the same. They are more based on shaping the stone [rather] than creating reflected light. Square or rectangular stones typically have four "facet" faces and a flat back. Stones were carved for millenia and they were rubbed into shape and polished for the majority of our period. Diamonds were cleaved and polished by the 15th cen. Rose cuts diamonds were in late period. Facets as we know them today really developed well after our period. If I had a book around I could be fill in a bit more detail. Timothy From: Lissa McCollum Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: 15th c. jewelry/gems question Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 00:51:55 -0700 Organization: Forest Moon Creations Mary Osmanski wrote: > A novelist friend of mine asked me the following question: > > I need some suggestions of what the main stone that would have been in > a necklace made in the mid to late 15th century. It would have been > created, perhaps in Spain during that period. Also the estimated worth > now would be in the two to three million dollar range. Where and when > it was made is open to change. The one thing that isn't is the name of > the stone The Eye of Dawn. > > My suggestion to him were ruby or emerald. Does anyone here have any > more authoritative suggestions? I know that there was at least one pendant of 3 rubies that was named. That was 'Three Brothers', captured by Carles the Bold from the Swiss in 1476. That pendant also had a diamond and pearls in it. Another stone that was popular in that time period is the sapphire, which would go nicely with the name chosen. Yet another possibility is the red spinel, known as balas rubies. The 14th century 'Black Prince's Ruby' was one of those. Lets see...amethyst, coral, rock crystal, amber, emerald, turquoise, and garnet were all used. Stones would have probably been table cut, or polished as cabochons, though there is evidence of diamond faceting as early as the mid 15th century. I have no idea which stones would be worth that much nowadays, unless they were intact in a famous piece like the 'Three Brothers' pendant. Gwen (reading from 'The Necklace' by Daniela Mascetti, and 'Jewelry' by Clare Phillips) Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 00:52:11 -0500 From: "RANDALL DIAMOND" Subject: SC - SC- Semi Precious Stones and Pearls >>>I have put a small bibliography on lapidaries and their history online: http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~gloning/steinbib.htm PLEASE, email me your additions and corrections!<<<< Quite an admirable biliogaphy, Thomas! I would hardly call it small though. You might add the following: Leonardi, Camilli , Speculum Lapidium, Venetia, 1502. Cardani, "De subtilitate," Basileae, 1560. Baccii, Andreae, "Da gemmis et lapidibus pretiosis," Latin trans. by Wolfgang Gabellhover, Francofurti, 1603. Boyle, Roberto, "Specimen de Gemmarum, Origine & Virtutibus," Cologne, 1680. But most especially: Kunz, G.F. & Stevenson, C.H.. The Book of the Pearl: the History, Art, Science and Industry of the Queen of Gems, Century Company, NY, 1908, Reprinted by Dover, NY, 1993. George Kunz has several more books, I don't have at hand for biblio information, but I believe one was titled, Shakespeare and Precious Stones (1916) Also check out John Sinkankas for more technical data on stones. Kunz and Sinkankas are fairly acknowledged as the two leading authorities on gemstones of the twentieth century. Akim Yaroslavich Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 14:22:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Jenne Heise Subject: Re: SC - Gemstonesy > >>> A further consideration is that something labelled "synthetic X" may > >>> actually be "synthetic Y in a color that looks like X." Many > >>> synthetic gemstones are either corundum or spinel, colored to match > >>> whatever they are supposed to be. Part of that is because a proportion of gemstones ARE corundum (rubies, sapphires etc) classified by the color they are. :) Furthermore, the situation in period was even more murky: Red spinel would in fact be a period 'ruby' as they didn't have the same sophisticated classification schemes and tests we do: hence 'The Black Prince's Ruby', which is a spinel. I would suspect that for our purposes, if the synthetic process resembles the process by which the gem is created in nature, it is probably a reasonable substitute: cultured pearls for pearls, etc. Since we aren't practicing the same kind of symbolic magick based on value the original users did, having the same chemical make-up ought to be enough. An excellent period work on gemstones available in translation from Scarecrow Press is: _Arab Roots of Gemology: Ahmad ibn Yusuf Al Tifaschi's Best Thoughts on the Best of Stones_ Samir Najm Abul Huda. Scarecrow Press, 1997. $45.00. ISBN:0-8108-3294-1 It's available directly from Scarecrow at: http://www.scarecrowpress.com/Catalog/ Jadwiga, who doesn't know all that much but a) has a friend who is an amateur lapidary and b) knowns where to look it up. - -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne at tulgey.browser.net From: "William Black" Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval Subject: Re: Small Things Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 08:14:02 +0100 "celia" wrote in message > It's not difficult to think of Anglo Saxon gold work with fine > sharp engraving on it, what the tools were made of is > impossible to tell, but they could do the job. > I'm sure you've engraved metal, there's a knack to it, > but a sharp tool is essential It's actually easier to get a sharp edge on a softer material, but it doesn't last as long. Modern gravers and scorpers are usually made of a good quality steel with a ground edge. You have to grind your own edge as the tools are far too long when you get them. Some of the new Swiss scorpers are made from a much harder 'tool steel' and hold their edge for much longer, but they're much more difficult to grind down and sharpen. When I was doing my diamond setting training I was told not to use the harder scorpers because a diamond setter's scorpers need a very precisely positioned cutting edge and the harder tools are very difficult to sharpen properly unless you're very experienced. -- William Black From: "William Black" Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval Subject: Re: Small Things Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 12:09:56 +0100 "celia" wrote > This is true and they are more user friendly but there is > no way that even modern hard tool steel could engrave > hard gemstones so is this a case of the notorious > secretiveness of lapidaries ? There's a picture of St Eligious in the British Museum book called 'Medieval Goldsmiths' and he's using a scorper exactly like one of mine, complete with mushroom shaped handle with brass ferule. Not sure how fine they could make them and they're obviously not as consistant as the modern ones but medieval tool making was pretty good if you were paying serious money... Also a goldsmith should be able to make their own tools, but making gravers and scorpers is pretty tedious stuff, you have to shorten, mount, grind and sharpen them yourself even these days, and that's not fun either... There are a couple of ways to engrave gemstones. One is to mount another harder gemstone on the end of a dop stick and use that as a graver, but I am informed it's dead eay to slip. The other is to put a mask over the bits you want to keep and use a rubbing technique to remove the stuff you don't. Obviously today people use a sand blaster or a tumbler with an assortment of media loaded into it. -- William Black From: "celia" Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval Subject: Re: Small Things Date: 17 Jul 2006 04:25:10 -0700 William Black wrote: > "celia" wrote in message > > > This is true and they are more user friendly but there is > > no way that even modern hard tool steel could engrave > > hard gemstones so is this a case of the notorious > > secretiveness of lapidaries ? > > There's a picture of St Eligious in the British Museum book called 'Medieval > Goldsmiths' and he's using a scorper exactly like one of mine, complete > with mushroom shaped handle with brass ferule. This one ? http://www.wga.hu/art/m/manuel/eligius.jpg St Eligius is the one with the hammer. The halo is a dead giveaway. > Not sure how fine they could make them and they're obviously not as > consistant as the modern ones but medieval tool making was pretty good if > you were paying serious money... > > Also a goldsmith should be able to make their own tools, but making gravers > and scorpers is pretty tedious stuff, you have to shorten, mount, grind > and sharpen them yourself even these days, and that's not fun either... > > There are a couple of ways to engrave gemstones. One is to mount another > harder gemstone on the end of a dop stick and use that as a graver, but I > am informed it's dead eay to slip. The other is to put a mask over the bits > you want to keep and use a rubbing technique to remove the stuff you don't. > Obviously today people use a sand blaster or a tumbler with an assortment of > media loaded into it. I'll go with the dopping method, the other would only work on soft stones with shallow engraving. The trouble with dopping wax is that it gets brittle in cold temperatures. A point of stone set in a wooden handle even if then reinforced with dopping wax to keep it steady would be better. No problem, it's only a finer version of an agate burnisher and they were used from a very early date for setting stones and smoothing leather, I've made one in the past and it beats metal for burnishing. Celia Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 23:40:41 -0500 From: chawkswrth at aol.com Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT OOP Diamonds was tedious process To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Diamonds have been found all through the ages, dating back to the Pharaohs. Basic diamond cutting was available even earlier then the 16th century, just not the many facets you see today. I apologize-I do not have my books handy, or I could give you a clearer history. Helen Old dryed up Jewelry Sales Manager-type (Thankfully retired and more steadly employed) THLord Stefan li Rous asked: <<< Do we know what areas diamonds were found in, in period? Since faceting of jewels was a late period invention, did diamonds even rank high on the scale of precious gems in period? >>> Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 15:14:11 -0600 From: "Daniel & Elizabeth Phelps" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT OOP tedious process To: "Cooks within the SCA" Regards diamonds, they were know to the arabs in period and are mentioned in at least one period book I can recall in translation. If I recall correctly diamonds in the US's northeastern and northern part of the midwest have been found as the result of glacial float out of Canada from the last ice age. A small number have turned up in North Carolina over the years but as to where those came from no one knows. Arkansas has a diamond "pipe" that is accessable to the public. Periodically gems of several carats turn up there. What with global warming there have been diamond "strikes" in Canada and Greenland relatively recently. Daniel mka Daniel C. Phelps, P.G. Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 15:50:37 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT OOP Diamonds was tedious process To: "Cooks within the SCA" Diamonds appear to have been found originally in India and Borneo. They were known in Antiquity and the original finds are probably prehistoric. I suspect the original finds were alluvial diamonds (washed out of the matrix rock and found in river sand). Later finds are more diverse geographically and are usually associated with the erosion of igneous rocks to expose deposits of Kimberlite, a type of peridotite. In 1970/71, I was in a prospecting class taught by Leo Mark Anthony, one of the best mining engineers in Alaska, when he showed slides of a series of Kimberlite pipes he had found in British Columbia while prospecting for tungsten. I occasionally wonder if he wasn't the person who started the Canadian diamond industry. In the 1st Century CE, Pliny associates diamond mining with Ethiopia, Macedonia, India, Arabia, and Cyprus. Diamonds were considered valuable because of their rarity and their hardness. A stone that can cut metal and other stones has amazing value. To quote Pliny, "The diamond, known for a long time only to kings and then to very few of them, has greater value than any other human possession, and not merely than any other gemstone." and "When a diamond is successfully broken, it disintegrates into splinters so small as to be scarcely visible. These fragments are greatly sought after by engravers and are inserted by them into their iron tools because the cut into the hardest surfaces with little effort." There is archeological evidence of diamond bit drills being used in Yemen in the 4th Century BCE. Diamonds have a square crystalline structure that in high quality stones translates into a rather flashy natural octahedral crystal. A natural octahedral catches the eye quite nicely without facetting. Since high quality natural stones are rare, diamond cutting produces an appealing gemstone from a more plebian diamond. Diamond cutting in Europe probably starts in 14th Century Venice. Faceting enhances the natural reflectivity of the stone. For more on diamonds, let me recommend the American Museum of Natural History: http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/diamonds/ Bear Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 23:15:44 -0500 From: Gretchen Beck Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Precious stones to ward off evils To: Cooks within the SCA --On Monday, November 26, 2007 10:45 PM -0600 Daniel & Elizabeth Phelps wrote: > I suggest that diamonds would have been of less value as a gem stone in > period compaired to stones more easily worked and of more vivid hues. > Its value would have been that it would scratch all other stones and > metal as well. I'm not sure I agree -- rarer and harder to work tend to make a stone more valueable, not less. Note too that what the ancient's called diamond (or adamas/adamant) may not necessarily be what we identify as diamond... > The only direct "period" reference I have would be to a translation of a > period Arab book of gems and my notes on that are on a hard drive > that I cannot access presently. Pliny the Elder's Natural History has a chapter on the properties of precious stones. An English translation is online at toodles, margaret Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 20:33:55 -0800 From: David Friedman Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Precious stones to ward off evils To: Cooks within the SCA I think there are some prehistoric jade finds in Europe. Ogden's book on jewelry in classical antiquity goes through the question of European jades in considerable detail; as best I remember, he concludes that every case is a misidentification. It seems to have been regarded as a new gemstone when the Spanish brought it back from the New World, hence the Spanish name. > A rumored little jade Buda found in an early Norse grave not withstanding it > is my understanding that jade was relatively unknow in Europe through out > all but late period as it was a gem of the orient and the new world. > > I suggest that diamonds would have been of less value as a gem stone in > period compaired to stones more easily worked and of more vivid hues. Its > value would have been that it would scratch all other stones and > metal as well. As best I recall, Cellini includes diamond among the precious stones. > It is my conjecture that a persona of 15th century Christian Spain would > intersect with Moslem and Jewish traditions but would not yet have > direct access to the orient or the new world. Yes. > The only direct "period" reference I have would be to a translation of a > period Arab book of gems and my notes on that are on a hard drive > that I cannot access presently. Pliny discusses the properties of gemstones in some detail. But he's generally sceptical. One of my favorite bits is where he mentions that if you put a certain stone beneath your pillow, in your dreams you will see the future. Or at least, he adds, you will see it as well as the soothsayers do I think Albertus Magnus discussed stones too--that should be fairly easy to find. _De Lapidibus_? There are a number of medieval European lapidaries with such information. > Daniel -- David Friedman www.daviddfriedman.com daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/ Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 00:22:26 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Precious stones to ward off evils To: "Cooks within the SCA" > A rumored little jade Buda found in an early Norse grave not withstanding > it is my understanding that jade was relatively unknow in Europe through out > all but late period as it was a gem of the orient and the new world. > > I suggest that diamonds would have been of less value as a gem stone in > period compaired to stones more easily worked and of more vivid hues. Its > value would have been that it would scratch all other stones and > metal as well. > > > Daniel Pliny on the otherhand suggests that they are the most valuable of gems and from his description of their shape it is fairly obvious he is referring to the rare diamonds that naturally display their crystalline structure. There is a break between Antiquity and the High Middle Ages where diamonds seem to be relatively unknown in Europe. Some time in the 14th Century, Venice became the diamond cutting center of Europe, probably as an adjunct to the spice trade. Bear Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 07:03:25 -0500 From: "Elaine Koogler" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Precious stones to ward off evils To: "Cooks within the SCA" I have done some research on jade, particularly as I wanted to use it as part of my heraldic title. Jade appears to have been encountered first by the Spanish in the Americas in the 15th century, where it was used as a specific against kidney disease. Because of this, the Spanish called the stone "ijada de piedra" or "stone of the kidney." The French began use of the stone in jewelry after that and transliterated the name into French...can't remember the French equivalent. It then passed over the Channel into English as "jade." This would have been the semi-precious jade, nephrite, which is what is mined in the Americas including central and South America as well as Alaska. I don't know of any instance, even close to period, of precious jade, jadeite, in Europe. This stone is found in China and in southeast Asia. All of the ceremonial jade implements in China were nephrite jade...and it was referred to as the "Stone of Heaven." The character/kanji for Emperor is, interestingly enough, the same as jade (a single vertical stroke with three horizontal strokes) with a single dot added on the bottom crosswise stroke. Kiri Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 09:15:06 -0500 From: "Sharon R. Saroff" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Precious stones to ward off evils To: Cooks within the SCA A number of years ago I did a research paper on bead lore. I compiled information on every stone I could think of. Only part of my research went into the paper. I remember that blue stones protected against the evil eye. Lapis was the favorite in the Middle East. Blue eye beads were also a favorite. HL Sindara Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 02:23:50 +0000 (GMT) From: emilio szabo Subject: [Sca-cooks] Precious stones To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org There are many books on precious stones. Some of them are online. http://juliusruska.digilibrary.de/q069/q069.html http://www.uni-giessen.de/gloning/lap/lap_zett.htm http://edocs.ub.uni-frankfurt.de/volltexte/2007/3947/ I am sure there are more of this kind out there. As for Spanish sources: Alfonso X, Rey de Castilla: Lapidario. Texto ?ntegro en versi?n de Mar?a Brey Marin~o. Madrid: Editorial Castalia 1968. Alfonso X: ?Lapidario? (seg?n el manuscrito escurialense H.I.15). Introducci?n, edici?n, notas y vocabulario de Sagrario Rodr?guez M. Montalvo. Pr?logo de Rafael Lapesa. Madrid 1981. Faraudo de Saint-Germain, L.: Noticia de un lapidario valenciano del siglo XV. In: Bolet?n de la Real Academia de Buenas Letras de Barcelona 18 (1945) 192-216. Nunemaker, J.H.: The lapidary of Marbode and a Spanish adaptation. In: Speculum 13 (1938) 62-67. Nunemaker, J.H.: In pursuit of the sources of the Alfonsine lapidaries. In: Speculum 14 (1939). Isidor might be a good source as well (known as Isidor of Sevilla, Isidorus Hispalensis). The text is online as well: http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/L/Roman/Texts/Isidore/16*.html Emilio Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 22:58:41 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Precious stones to ward off evils To: "Cooks within the SCA" > While we are at it Daniel sent a website concerning precious stones > in the Roman Empire. Obviously according to this Romans were not wearing > precious stones in rings while eating to protect oneself against poison, > which is the topic at hand. After reading the entire essay. I found a > important sentence: the "method of polishing diamonds was first > discovered in 1456, by Louis Berquen, a citizen of Bruges ." Fascinating > cause such inventions travel slowly so probably when one of you said > diamonds were cheaper than other precious stones you are totally correct > because of the lack of polish. This points to a logic error on the part > of Spanish historians claiming diamonds were used in 1434 to ward of > poison. High quality, natural octahedral diamonds are rare and are therefore very costly. Pliny's comment is "The diamond, known for a long time only to kings and then to very few of them, has a greater value than any other human possession, and not merely than any other gemstone." From this, I assume Romans did not generally wear diamonds because they could not afford them and the idea that diamonds are cheaper than other stones because they lack polish is false. Diamond cutting increased the supply of available diamonds. European diamond cutting appears to begin in Venice between 1330 and 1350. The earliest representation of a facetting machine is by Zwolle in 1439. The 1456 date for Berquen is open to question as some sources list his birth as 1450. Berquen was the first cutter to grind off the upper and lower points of the octahedral, the claim that he was the person who introduced diamond cutting to Europe is false. Giacomo Tagliacarne is definitely contemporary to Berquen and very likely predates him. Since diamond cutting in Europe was 80-100 years old in 1434, I wouldn't write off the claims that they were used then to ward off poison without quite a bit more research. Bear Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 15:13:46 -0800 From: David Friedman Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Precious stones to ward off evils To: Cooks within the SCA > I have done some research on jade, particularly as I wanted to use it > as part of my heraldic title. Jade appears to have been encountered > first by the Spanish in the Americas in the 15th century, where it was > used as a specific against kidney disease. Because of this, the > Spanish called the stone "ijada de piedra" or "stone of the kidney." I think the reason is that botryoidal jade looks like kidneys. I don't know if the name is directly from that, or indirectly along the lines you suggest. > The French began use of the stone in jewelry after that and > transliterated the name into French...can't remember the French > equivalent. It then passed over the Channel into English as "jade." > This would have been the semi-precious jade, nephrite, which is what > is mined in the Americas including central and South America as well > as Alaska. I don't know of any instance, even close to period, of > precious jade, jadeite, in Europe. I'm not sure why you regard Jadeite as "precious" and nephrite as "semi-precious." I can't speak to Chinese usage, but in western terminology both are semi-precious stones. My conjecture, incidentally, is that because jade was greatly valued in China, rough jade found between China and the west, for instance in Burma,, would get exported east rather than west. Hence the stone was unknown in medieval Europe, unlike some other stones that also had to be brought considerable distances. > This stone is found in China and in > southeast Asia. All of the ceremonial jade implements in China were > nephrite jade...and it was referred to as the "Stone of Heaven." The > character/kanji for Emperor is, interestingly enough, the same as jade > (a single vertical stroke with three horizontal strokes) with a single > dot added on the bottom crosswise stroke. > > Kiri Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 22:11:19 -0500 From: "Elaine Koogler" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Precious stones to ward off evils To: "Cooks within the SCA" On Nov 30, 2007 6:13 PM, David Friedman wrote: > I think the reason is that botryoidal jade looks > like kidneys. I don't know if the name is > directly from that, or indirectly along the lines > you suggest. This was not conjecture on my part, but information that I gleaned from Web sites (not Wikipedia, by the bye), but sites from an international jem organization. Of course they could be wrong, but I think it's likely that they knew what they were talking about, especially as I found the same information on several sites. I don't remember which sites they were at the moment, but I can probably do some reconstruction if necessary. > I'm not sure why you regard Jadeite as "precious" > and nephrite as "semi-precious." I can't speak to > Chinese usage, but in western terminology both > are semi-precious stones. I guess this comes from the fact that I worked with Chinese jewelers in Hong Kong and Thailand...and in Hawaii...and this is what I was told. I also found the information while doing independent research for my Masters degree at the Freer Gallery of the Smithsonian Institution in Washington, D. C. Also, as a shopkeeper selling both types of jewelry, I can tell you that the prices of the two types of jade, at least in my experience were quite different. Sometime, go into a jewelry store that specializes in jade and price a piece of Imperial jade, one type of jadeite. Imperial jade is a vibrant green jade that is so translucent that a newspaper can be read through a 1/8" piece of the stone. > My conjecture, incidentally, is that because jade > was greatly valued in China, rough jade found > between China and the west, for instance in > Burma,, would get exported east rather than west. > Hence the stone was unknown in medieval Europe, > unlike some other stones that also had to be > brought considerable distances. A very plausible explanation. Your Grace, I don't mean to sound argumentative...I just wanted you, and the rest of the list, to know that my statements were made based on some fairly extensive research that I have done. Kiri Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2007 20:41:18 -0300 From: Suey Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Precious stones to ward off evils To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Reviewing the precious stones the only ones I have [seen] worn in rings to ward off evil in medieval Spain are: agatha, crisopraza, coral, diamond, emerald, garnet, jacinth or hyacinth, mannera? (unidentified precious stone), L. /manus/, hand + arium (ario [relating to the hand]), mustika bezoar pearls, quartz, ruby, serpentine and sard or carnelian. Funny there are 12. What were the 12 stones Apocalipsis 21:20? Most of mine come from Villena who generalizes saying they annul poison in foods and polluted air. That does not satisfy me. There is more to it. There are cold stones for evils in warm foods and warm stones for those in cold foods. Suey Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 12:55:23 +1300 From: Adele de Maisieres Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Precious stones to ward off evils To: Cooks within the SCA Suey wrote: > Reviewing the precious stones the only ones I have worn in rings to ward > off evil in medieval Spain are: agatha, crisopraza, coral, diamond, > emerald, garnet, jacinth or hyacinth, mannera? (unidentified precious > stone), L. /manus/, hand + arium (ario [relating to the hand]), mustika > bezoar pearls, quartz, ruby, serpentine and sard or carnelian. Funny > there are 12. What were the 12 stones Apocalipsis 21:20? 19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; 20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. -- Adele de Maisieres Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2007 19:20:57 -0500 From: Gretchen Beck Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Precious stones to ward off evils To: Cooks within the SCA --On Sunday, December 02, 2007 6:14 PM -0600 Terry Decker wrote: > The quick ref I'm looking at translates "ijada" as flank and "piedra de > ijada" as flank stone. It derives from the Latin "ilia" and > becomes jade from the French "l'ejade." FWIW, here's what the Oxford English Dictionary says about the etymology of the word "jade" [= F. le jade (1667 in Hatz.-Darm.), for l'ejade (Voiture, 1633) = It. iada (Florio, 1598), ad. Sp. ijada in piedra de ijada or yjada (Monardes, 1569), lit. ?colic stone?, f. ijada, yjada, ?the small ribs, the collike, the flanke? (Minsheu); cf. the synonym NEPHRITE, f. Gr. kidneys, reins. The transformation of F. l'ejade fem. into le jade masc. was an error made when the word was as yet unfamiliar: see Athen?um, 20 Oct. 1900.] toodles, margaret Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 18:26:35 -0600 From: "Terry Decker" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Precious stones to ward off evils To: "Cooks within the SCA" Twelve. Twelve months, twelve signs of the Zodiac. The stones Suey listed are a mix of ancient and modern birthstones. The ones listed by Adele are the ancient birthstones, if I'm not mistaken. This suggest to me that these stones are believed to be related to the signs of the Zodiac and that their assumed powers may derive from the virtues of the sign to which they are related. Just a thought. Bear Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 02:17:48 +0000 (GMT) From: emilio szabo Subject: [Sca-cooks] Precious stones to ward off evils To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org > Twelve. Twelve months, twelve signs of the Zodiac. The Middle English "Boke of Stones", edited by Keiser in 1984, starts off with biblical references, among others to 2 Mose (Exodus) 28,17, which deals with the priest Aaron. The twelve precious stones are connected to the twelve sons of Israel (the Vulgata says: "habebuntque nomina filiorum Israhel"). "And wyse men shulde not doute that god ne hath put vertu In stones & herbes & wordes. & who-so beleueth hit not, but ayeinseith hit, he ne is but a synner. The bible witnesseth hit that god commaunded be his mouth to moyses the prophete that he shulde put the twelue stones, the whech he had myde [of] many maneres in a moos clene & fine, quarre of foure handbrede of lencth & brede in foure corners, in euery corner thre stones (...) & hanged vppon the breste of aaron that was the first preest of the Iewys. The names of the twelue stones that god hath named to moyses the prophete be his mouth ben thise: The firste stone ...". Similarly, the "Lapidaire de Philippe" says: "... Et doit on sauoir que par le commendement nostre seignor furent mises .Xii. pierres preciouses en .i. pairement que fust mis sor le pis Aaron, le premier prestre des iuis. ...". Emilio Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 22:16:01 -0800 From: David Friedman Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Precious stones to ward off evils To: Cooks within the SCA > Reviewing the precious stones the only ones I have worn in rings to > ward off evil in medieval Spain are: agatha, crisopraza, Chrysoprase? > coral, diamond, > emerald, garnet, jacinth or hyacinth, mannera? (unidentified precious > stone), L. /manus/, hand + arium (ario [relating to the hand]), mustika > bezoar pearls, quartz, ruby, serpentine and sard or carnelian. Funny > there are 12. What were the 12 stones Apocalipsis 21:20? Most of mine > come from Villena who generalizes saying they annul poison in foods and > polluted air. That does not satisfy me. There is more to it. There are > cold stones for evils in warm foods and warm stones for those in > cold foods. > Suey I think a number of sources claim that amethyst defends against drunkenness. -- David/Cariadoc www.daviddfriedman.com Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 21:36:59 -0300 From: Suey Subject: [Sca-cooks] Gems preventing poisoning To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org My reference to this subject comes from Luis Alonso Luengo's speech on the Suero de Quinones jousting tournament in 1434, who unkindly does not give his source here but quotes that the stones worn on the fingers which were the 'ruby, diamond, jacinth or hyacinth, coral and sard or carnelian plus lapidary.' He goes on to the cold stone: diamond; hot: "mannera"; and "galacio," 'which attracts clouds'??? Why do we want to attract clouds? Curious the diamond, mentioned twice, after what you said Emilio, that they were not properly polished until the latter part of the 15th C. On the other hand, I find Alonso Luengo the most faithful to documents concerning what was said in this conference on Spanish Leonese cooking, the speeches of which were published in 1994. Alonso is right on with Villena and Sanchez Albornoz quotes. I really would appreciate any specific info on the qualities of the stones mentioned above to prevent poisoning, hot or cold, relations to the four humors etc. This is fascinating to me. Suey Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 19:13:51 -0300 From: Suey Subject: [Sca-cooks] Gems preventing poisoning To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org On diamonds, Emilio wrote that as they were not polished properly until the 1450's he believes them an error but the original source turns out to be Juan de Encina who wrote this between 1439-1440 and mentions them twice in the text on Suero de Qui?ones jousting tournament. Got a gem of a gem today - "galicio". There was an area in Turkey today called Galicia and there is that of Spain. I find no scientific name for this. It comes from Encina as well. Does anyone have any idea what this could be? I cannot even fathom a color for it. 'It freed eaters of poisonous foods and other misfortunes that could occur while eating.' Suey Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 23:27:40 +0000 (GMT) From: emilio szabo Subject: [Sca-cooks] Gems preventing poisoning To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org > ... I have a little problem with your > citations in Italian, German and Middle English...If you prefer > modern English: Many articles on the following site mention old > sources in modern English paraphrase: http://www.jjkent.com/articles/precious-stones-guide-vol9/index.htm E.g.: http://www.jjkent.com/articles/medicinal-virtues-emeralds.htm ("... The emerald was employed as an antidote for poisons and for poisoned wounds, as well as against demoniacal possession. (Lapidario del Rey D. Alfonso X, Codice Original, Madrid, 1881, f. xv.)") This passage in question was translated into Castilian by Maria Brey Marino as follows: 46. De la piedra que tiene nombre "zamorat". Del d?cimosexto grado del signo de Tauro es la piedra a que dicen en ar?bigo "zamorat" y en latin "esmeralda". Esta piedra es verde, de muy hermosa verdura, y cuanto m?s lo es, tanto es mejor. Mezclada es de naturaleza de tierra y de piedra; y es, de su naturaleza, fr?a y seca. H?cese mucha en las minas de oro y h?llanla en tierra de Occidente m?s que en otro lugar. Su virtud es tal que sirve contra todos los t?sigos mortales y heridas o mordeduras de bestias venenosas; si tomaren de ella peso de una dracma, la molieren, la cernieren y la dieren a beber con vino o con agua al hombre envenenado, sana, que no muere ... There are other places where it is said that you have to wear the gemstone around your neck, on the left hand etc. Here is C.W. King's "Antique gems"; it includes a translation of Marbod's Liber de lapidibus seu de gemmis, which was probably the most important text during the Middle Ages. http://books.google.com/books? id=PRgGAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=intitle:gems&lr=&num=100&as_brr=1 Marbod starts here: http://books.google.com/books? id=PRgGAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=intitle:gems&lr=&num=100&as_brr=1 #PPA389,M1 (John Riddle, in his edition of Marbod, suggests alternative translations now and then but still reprints King's translation.) Could you please quote, what Alfonso Luengo wrote? Another valuable article is Urban Tigner Holmes's "Mediaeval gem stones", published in Speculum, vol. 9, 1934, pages 195-204. Among other things, he used inventories of kings in order to see what kinds of gems they really had. There is also a 15th century spanisch adaption of Marbode, on which see Nunemaker in a short article in Speculum, vol. 13, 1938, page 62-67. Of course, reading the old texts in the original language opens a field which is much wider. E.g., there is a transcription of the "Lapidaire" attributed to Jean de Mandeville: http://www.univ-provence.fr/Local/cuerma/dir/user-1086/Gontero- lapidaireFV.pdf A printed "lapidaire en francoys compose par messire Jehan des mandeuille cheualier" is online at http://gallica.bnf.fr This text, e.g., says in the chapter about "Le dyamant" that it "fuit venin" (makes poison flee); This echos a passage in Marbod's "De adamante": "Atra venena fugat" 'it chases away black poisions' (John Riddle, improving on King's translation). Emilio Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 20:13:19 -0300 From: Suey Subject: [Sca-cooks] Gems preventing poisoning To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org My many thanks to Emilio Szabo for your interest in this matter and all the websites you provided. I think now I can almost complete my own homework assignment better. The text Emilio requested is as follows: Alonso Luengo, Luis, "La Gastronomia en el passo honroso de Suero de Qui?ones. _Actas del congreso de gastronom?a popular leonesa_. Diputaci?n Provincial de Le?n. 1944:44: Se?alan los lapidarios, que cada piedra preciosa acumula "/virtud contra determinada ponzo?a e aire infecto: rub?, diamante, e gigorza, e coral, e olicornio. . ./" Y libran a los comensales de los diab?licos venenos de los alimentos y otras desgracias que al comer puedan acontecer. As?, el coral detiene el rayo; el "galacio" atrae a las nubes; el "granate" recoge el calor; y aquella piedra preciosa del Gran Chamberlan que cuando alguno dice en su presencia una mentira, muda el color. Y otras en fin, comenta Villena -- "como la que se face con el coraz?n de ome muerto con veneno endurecido o lapirificado con fuego revervante", piedra esta que, puesta sobre las l?as o guantes que ha de usar el Maestresala, tiene tal poder que enlaza con la r?brica de su fulgor extraordinarios, todo los fulgores de las dem?s piedras preciosas -- que est?n en la mano de cada comensal -- y sienta una protecci?n general contra todos los maleficios diab?licos. Dos clases de piedras preciosas se?alan los lapidarios como esenciales par el comer: las piedras /fr?as /-- a la cabeza el diamante -- contra los maleficios de los alimentos calientes o de sangre - como la carne - ; y las piedras calientes -- el granate y la manera contra los maleficios de alimentos fr?os - no de sangre -- como los pescados. Now I see by this that not only can I not find what 'galacio' is but I am missing citations and the translation of this stone: *gigorza,* *gorgor?a*, 1. an unidentified precious stone. It was valued as much as a diamond or ruby, thought to annul poison in foods and had powers to provide happiness, health, success, protection and cures among other things. 2. a green apple. It was used to raise the spirits, egoism, tension and stress, prevent nightmares, provide success with new endeavors and attract friendships. 3. a 13^th C sculptured amulet. In it was the image of a bull to fortify the eyes, stop hemorrhaging, alleviate rheumatism and if a little piece of money was carried with it at all times, financial success was possible. ** Where I got the above info is beyond me. The only 'gigorza' I have heard of is Emilio di Gigorza, the baritone, second husband of Emma Eames. I can't find the Latin link between 'Emilio' and a very valuable green stone I believe, any ideas? Suey Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 19:14:24 -0300 From: Suey Subject: [Sca-cooks] Gems preventing poisoning To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org I wrote: > *gigorza,* *gorgor?a*, 1. an unidentified precious stone. It was valued > as much as a diamond or ruby, thought to annul poison in foods and had > powers to provide happiness, health, success, protection and cures > among other things. 2. a green apple. ble, ble, ble. Nay, nay nay. That's a bunch of garbage! Just answered my own question. Gigorza is Old Castellan for jacinth, hyacinth, a reddish-orange gem. As per Villena it prevented death from poisoning if worn on the right fingers during meals. Looking for something else I came across Raymond Llull's (1232-1315) opinion of the diamond: "it stops and prevents all intruding poisons. . . " http://nora.hd.uib.no/non/echt/budapest/Selfrepr/symbol.htm I think in Aragon, at least, the opinion of the diamond was higher than Emilio indicates even though it was not properly polished until well after Llull's death. Suey To: EKMetalsmiths at yahoogroups.com Subj: help with chemical questions Posted by: "Miriel" miriel.crawford at gmail.com drgnhlr Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 11:15 pm (PST) I am researching period gem manufacturing (lapidary) and have potentially discovered a way to create Onyx stones, that was done in period. This article: http://www.thebeadsite.com/UNI-ONYX.html indicates that sulphuric acid was used, or rather, can be used to help dye/heat change regular agate to onyx. I know things like Drain-O have sulphuric acid in them, but it also has other stuff - what are the pure forms of sulphuric acid, can it be commercially purchased (yes, I"m going to try and answer that anyway - no I don't care about government 'watchlists'), and could some other chemical reaction be used as a substitute? I'd like to document an actual attempt with this. Thanks. Miriel Re: help with chemical questions Posted by: "Michael Bergman" grifarosto at comcast.net eclecticmagpie Thu Jan 3, 2008 6:35 am (PST) All that said, what's the procedure that you've read about, and where did you read about it? Britannica has one here: http://books.google.com/books?id=TKcMAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA277&lpg=PA277&dq=converting+agate+to+onyx&source=web&ots=fTD8Ff9yQN&sig=AZogFavsUmPkQEOOjV2VPP_8bl4 It sounds like this process is basically one of introducing honey into the pores of the rock, and then burning it with the sulphuric acid, leaving carbon deposits. This would require a fairly strong (and thus dangerous) concentration of sulphuric acid. Harald Longfellow www.prospecthillforge.com Thanks for help and warnings Posted by: "Miriel" miriel.crawford at gmail.com drgnhlr Thu Jan 3, 2008 8:13 am (PST) Ok, I admit that I wrote that on the heels of a moment of "AH HA" after I'd read about the chemical reaction in the research. site: http://www.thebeadsite.com/UNI-ONYX.html paragraph: (sorry, really two) "Pliny's gemstone onyx is a humanly altered agate. Banded agate can be turned into onyx by soaking it in a solution of honey or sugar water over a low heat for a couple of weeks. The duller, slightly porous bands will soak up some of this liquid, and when the stone is heated, the sugar will caramelize in them and turn brown. The less porous white bands remain unaffected, emphasizing the contrast. The result is a brown onyx, deeply and attractively banded. If the sugar-impregnated stone is put into sulfuric acid, the sugar will carbonize and become black. An even handsomer black onyx will result. The Harappans were making brown onyx some 4000 years ago. Arikamedu (q.v.) is the place where the first black onyx is thus far recorded, more than 2000 years ago." And I will also admit that my elementary science went out the window last night (it was 2am! Even though that's my normal schedule...yikes, what a case of the dumbs) in my enthusiasm. I do know basic lab safety - but since I haven't had to 'use' these bits stored in my brain, the information didn't immediately surface. As for confusing Drain-O with Sulphuric Acid, I blame that on misinterpreting a piece of information: http://tinyurl.com/3x7zej and specifically down near the bottom of the entry where it indicates products using this acid: "Instant Power Liquid Drain Opener"...didn't realize it was a link to an actual product listing (Scotch Corp manufacture) and just transliterated "Drain Opener" with "Drain-O"...I'm an idiot, I will be the first to admit. Going to go find lab basics for dummies now... Miriel, the abased. -- Edited by Mark S. Harris lapidary-msg Page 27 of 27