lapidary-msg - 6/9/09
Period and SCA gemstone cutting.
NOTE: See also the files: A-Lapidary-art, gem-sources-msg, amber-msg, jewelry-msg, pearls-msg, beads-msg, beadwork-msg, coronets-msg, PW-Jewelry-Box-art.
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From: jjohns at tc3net.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Period lapidary techniques
Date: 19 Aug 1996 17:24:05 -0700
Does anyone know of sources for period lapidary techniques besides
Theophilus? His info is ok, but I'd like some alternatives to prepping rock crystal by warming it in goat's blood - you get the idea. Any more practical info would be most welcome. Thank you
Alasdair MacRaibert a'dun Alasdair
(Tom Johnson)
jjohns at tc3net.com
From: ddfr at aol.com (DDFr)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period lapidary techniques
Date: 20 Aug 1996 14:23:03 -0400
Alasdair asks:
"Does anyone know of sources for period lapidary techniques besides
Theophilus? His info is ok, but I'd like some alternatives to prepping
rock crystal by warming it in goat's blood - you get the idea. Any more
practical info would be most welcome. Thank you"
1. You are unfair to Theophilus. He also describes practical techniques
for shaping and polishing stones, including the use of powdered emery,
attaching the stone to a dop stick with something rather like modern
dopping cement, etc.
2. Take a look also at Cellini's _Art of Goldsmithing and Sculpture_ or
something close to that title. He certainly discusses "improving" stones
by making colored foils to put behind them; I don't remember if there is
anything on actually cutting the stones.
David/Cariadoc
From: Alasdair MacRaibert
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period lapidary techniques
Date: 21 Aug 1996 19:18:58 -0700
In article , ddfr at aol.com says...
>1. You are unfair to Theophilus. He also describes practical techniques
>for shaping and polishing stones, including the use of powdered emery,
>attaching the stone to a dop stick with something rather like modern
>dopping cement, etc.
Your Grace Cariadoc, The reference to Theophilus was made as a poor joke.
When I read 'On Divers Arts', I made a joke with my lady on how they would
accept carving of rock crystal by his methods at a kingdom A&S competition
and whether it would be considered a science or a performing art. :-}
I do intend to try his recipe for chaser's pitch and his grinding techniques.
>2. Take a look also at Cellini's _Art of Goldsmithing and Sculpture_
Thank you for the reference and I will take a look at it the first chance I get.
I have two other possible references if you're interested. The first comes from a Dover edition book called ' The Book Of Trades' which shows a series of wood
cuts published in 1568. One of the pictures is of a gem cutter using a treadle
powered rock grinder, but has no text description of methods.
The other reference is more empirical. In the July 1990 edition of National
Geographic, they have an article on emeralds. In that article they show a scene
from modern day India and a row of bow driven rock grinders in use. I would
assume that this design might be a predecessor to a treadle powered machine.
There seems to be very little research or period reference on the subject of
lapidary. If you should come across any other information, I would appreciate
the information.
Thank you, Alasdair MacRaibert/Tom Johnson
From: ddfr at aol.com (DDFr)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period lapidary techniques
Date: 22 Aug 1996 22:13:42 -0400
On the subject of period lapidary techniques. All of the following is from
memory; I am travelling and my library is not.
1. I believe water driven wheels are recorded at Idar-Oberstein a little
before 1600.
2. Traditional Persian technology (not necessarily period) used a bow
driven lathe. So does modern Indian; I have one, although I have not used
it. So did classical technology, at least for gemstone carving. So I think
a bow driven lathe is a fair guess for period Islamic technology.
3. One question I do not know the answer to is whether the bow driven
lathe turned in one direction, with the operator raising or lowering the
bow to release the tension for strokes in the opposite direction (which
seems the obvious way to me), or whether it was reciprocating, which seems
to be the way that the somewhat similar spring lathe works.
4. Traditional Persian technique also uses a pump drill; I have seen it
done in Isfahan. I suspect that is period also, although I can't prove it.
It could be used for drilling and, perhaps, engraving gemstones.
5. You might want to look at my old article on gemstones, published long
ago in T.I. but also in the Miscellany that Elizabeth and I publish, which
is also accessible (minus the figures) on the web.
David/Cariadoc
From: zarazena at io.com (Vicki Marsh)
To: ansteorra at eden.com
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 11:00:56 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Good Enough? (Was Using
Sigrid Eiriksdottir wrote:
>I will do what I can for documentation at Laurel's prize tourney. Maybe
>someone there can point me to a reference or two.
Sigrid, do you have a public or university library nearby? When I live in
Austin, I know there were quite a few books in their libraries about
lapidary and jewelry, as I often did a lot of the research on jewelry-making
for my ex-husband. Also, some of the jewelry and lapidary shops will have
some books (like Dyers in Austin).
Sometimes, the How-to books are a place to start, as they often have some
history of the craft in the introduction. If so, look at their
bibliography/references, for the next place to look.
Keep looking
Zara Zina
From: afn03234 at freenet2.afn.org (Ronald L. Charlotte)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Lapidary Sources...
Date: 2 Nov 1996 06:01:02 GMT
susankford at aol.com (SusanKFord) wrote:
> Does anyone have any books or other sources on period lapidary. I can do
> it with modern tools, but would like to know how it was done B>E>
> (before electricity...)
The one with the most useful information is _On Divers Arts_ by
Theophilus (ISBN 0 486 23784 2). It's widely available in Dover
reprint. Others include a smattering of info in _The Treatises of
Benvenuto Cellini on Goldsmithing and Sculpture_ (ISBN 0 486 21568 7).
There are a few others with small bits and pieces, and there is supposed
to be a Renaissance treatise on lapidary, but I've not found it yet.
--
al Thaalibi ---- An Crosaire, Trimaris
Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL
afn03234 at afn.org
From: william thomas powers <powers at cis.ohio-state.edu>
Subject: Re: Estrella Dust
To: markh at risc.sps.mot.com (Mark S. Harris)
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 09:56:47 -0500 (EST)
> What's a "cab"? I'm assuming it is a cap of some type. I thought at
> first this was a mis-spelling but you wrote it this way several times.
Sorry, a bit of jargon there---"Cab" is short for "Cabochon" which is a
style of gem cutting. Instead of having flat facets the stone has a smooth
dome shape---much more a pre-renaissance cut for stones. In this case
the smooth domed quartz crystal provides a "window" to protect the item
in the reliquery but allow it to be seen. (There are several ways of mounting
them everything from soldering in a bezel to using an engraver to raise an
edge.
wilelm the smith
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:37:54 -0600
From: Kathleen Keeler <kkeeler at unlinfo.unl.edu>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: most usual semi-precious gems?
Anna Troy wrote:
> Well I've started to work on my circlet and I was planning on adding som
> small semi-precious carbochons. Which stones are no-no's for the 14th
> century? Were any more popular than the other or was it still the mish-mash
> that I've seen in earlier medieval work. I was planning on blue, red and
> maybe green stones depending on weither it will be 4 or more.
>
> Anna de Byxe
Modern stones are separated by chemistry--since in Period they didn't
have that tool, they mixed up some stones we distinguish: rubies and ruby-like
garnets were not separable, for example. Likewise, some
of the natural glasses and quartzes, when colored like emeralds (or other
stones) were mistaken. If there was faceting (ie if the precious gem had a
different number to faces than quartz) or hardness differences--they didn't
make mistakes.
See Cariadoc's Miscellany (online see SCA home page).
Avoid jade (not mentioned in Period lapidaries)
The Early English Text Society has a volume (#190, 1933) which reprints 7
Medieval English lapidaries. They are all based on Continental lapidaries,
are derivative and repetitious. Green stones mentioned in addition to
malachite include jasper, phrase, selenite, red include heliotrope, hyacinth,
sard. I'd characterize it as "lore of precious stones" but
it gives some sense of what stones they knew and used.
I did a composite translation of the information in the lapidaries- not so
much scholarly as entertaining, I understand a scholarly translation is in
progress -- from the very difficult English of the originals to modern
English. If you would like I can email you the text
(its maybe 10 typed pages.) The original is better, but much more difficult
to read and not very easily available (big university libraries and ILL).
Agnes deLanvallei, Mag Mor, Calontir
Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 21:34:50 -0700
From: Twcs <no1home at encompass.net>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Sunstone/Iceland Spar/Andalucite
<snip of modern mineral and gem info>
When is comes to equating a classical or medieval name of a rock
to a modern mineral, one needs to tread carefully. Nowadays, we
usually associate one mineral name to one distinct crystalline form
of an inorganic compound. For example, rhombahedral calcium
carbonate is calcite, whereas orthorhombic calcium carbonate is
aragonite. Aragonite is what pearls are made of, by the way.
In the middle ages, however, rock names were assigned on the
basis of physical properties, usually color and/or chemical action.
For example, both colorless topaz (Al2SiO4(F,OH)2) and diamond
would be called adamant. Similarly, the common hydrous sulfates
of iron, zinc and copper could all be used to make sulfuric acid,
and therefore were called green, white and blue vitriol respectively.
Alum is the worst, actually. Medievally, practically every white
hydroxenated or hydrous aluminum sulfate which occured naturally
and made a sweet-sour astingent solution when dissolved was
called and used as alum. There are over 20 modern minerals which
medievally were used as alum. (So if you've ever been confused
by medieval shipping records which differentiate between Egytpian
or Tuscan alum, know you know why...)
Unfortunately, threre's a great deal of confusion still concerning
the use of gem names. Yellow topaz is also called citrine, but so
is yellow quartz. Occasionally, yellow quartz is passed off as
topaz. Cat's eye, a variety of crysoberyl is often confused with
tiger's eye, a quartz replacement of fibrous crocidolite. There are
many more examples. The ones that really get me fired up are when
someone tells me about a "red sapphire" or a "blue emerald,"
especially in context of buying gems or jewellry. Sapphires are
by definition the blue variety of corundum, and emeralds are
the green variety of beryl. Red sapphires, blue emeralds and their
like are often either marketting ploys or cases of outright fraud.
Basically, correctly identifying a medieval rock name with a modern
mineral is a mess. I find it frustrating, and I do min id professionally.
I can't imagine what it must be like for folks who aren't rock geeks.
I'll give those who are interested a foot up, however: if you can find
a seventh or EARLIER edition of Dana's Manual of Mineralogy, you
will find that each mineral entry contains a history of what is was
named and by whom, including classical and medieval sources. The
early editions of Dana, however, are all nineteenth century, so they're
hard to find (try a university library - that's where the copy I use is
located). The Hoover and Hoover commentary to Argicola's De Re
Metallica is also helpful (it's included as part of their translation of
Agricola, and is available from Dover books).
ttfn, Twcs
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 15:57:45 -0400
From: Warren & Meredith Harmon <ravenleaf at juno.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Caro's List of Gem Books
Here is my recommended list of books - your mileage, of course, will
vary. Opinions expressed are only my own. I hope they help....
The Audubon Society Field Guide to North American Rocks and Minerals,
Charles W Chersterman, is a good field guide for those like me who like
to go digging in the field. The pictures are excellent, definitions,
locations, etc. It was my first rock/mineral book, and I consider it my
best book.
For a specification in gems, even though it's a little on the easy
side...Eyewiness Handbooks' Gemstones: The Visual Guide to More Than 130
Gemstone Varieties, by Cally Hall. ISBN 1-56458-498-4. This is the book
I carry when selling gems, because it can explain to almost everyone what
they are looking at...or what they may want. It's arranged by color
*and* composition, which is quite handy! Unfortunately, some of the
remarks are a bit generalistic for Scadians...I keep asking myself,
"yeah, I know the Egyptians used fluorite to carve scarabs, but how, why,
and what location did they get it from?!?" But *excellent* pictures of
faceted and carved and cabbed gems, with pics of some famous gems through
history.
For pictures alone, most of them period...Gemstones, published by
Streling Publishing Co, New York. Excellent shots of some of the more
exquisite jewelry pieces through history (one of these days I *will*
duplicate that Sumerian crown!!!). ISBN 0-8069-6834-6.
For those with a more chemical mind...Minerals and Gemstones of the
World, by G Brocardo. It's a Naturetrek Guide, ISBN 0-7153-0197-7. Each
mineral has a chemical analysis, but it's written with the layman in mind
(which I appreciate, even though I have a chemical background.)The charts
at the bottom of each page give a quick visual of the chemical properties
of each item...including clevage, hardness, color, mineral class,
specific gravity, fusibility, occurrence, luster, solubility, use,
preservation (which is great for display cases!) powder color, flame
color, toxicity, etc. Each overleaf can be folded so you can have a
side-by-side comparison with the page you're interested in. Excellent
stuff!
Now for those who are more interested in the metaphysical
properties...Love is in the Earth: A Kaleidoscope of Crystals Updated by
Melody. ISBN 0-9628190-3-4. Almost every rock, gem, and mineral known
to mankind is in here, but I have some caveats: 1) It's written as if you
actually know a little about mineralology, 2) You have to take one
person's word for what's written - it's difficult to corroborate
metaphysical info, 3) It doesn't use standardized names...black agate
from one location is given a different name than black agate from another
location. Of course, this ticks me off royally, but they at least
attempt to use location prefixes to the names...well, sometimes.... 4)
Some of these rocks you won't find outside someone's imagination.
And, here's my general caveat: whether or not you believe in the
metaphysical properties of rocks and minerals, please treat them as you
would any other medical item. Some people *will* have allergies, and
some people will *not* react as the book says. Please keep that in mind,
and treat people and rocks alike with respect and caution. Okay, my
lecture's over.
Also, for those thinking about getting into collecting or just want more
info: if yo uhave a Border's or a Barnes & Noble or a Feed & Read
Bookstore or...well, okay, you get the point - go and browse through
their rock & mineral section. You may find one that suits you quite
well, and you get to thumb through them yourself. That's what I did, and
I came up with these "gems" (heh!) on my own. But, good luck, and happy
hunting!
-Caro (herkimer hunting in four weeks!!!!)
Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 18:04:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: H B <nn3_shay at yahoo.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Arab Roots of Gemology
In the current issue of _Gems & Gemology_, there is a book review of a
new English translation of _Best Thoughts on the Best of Stones_ by
Ahmad ibn Yusuf al Tifaschi (1184-1254), translated with comments by
Samar Najm Abul Huda, Scarecrow Press, Lanham, MD, 1998 US$45.00.
Review is excerpted here.
-- Harriet
"One important aspect of gemology is the history of gemstones.
Unfortunately, a wealth of early works have been lost to modern
gemologists, as evidenced by the number of gem references sited in
Pliny's first-century encyclopedia that have disappeared without a
trace. Although much of the knowledge possessed by ancient Greece and
Rome was preserved by Arabic writers, for the most part such works
remain inaccessible to all but the few western scholars who have
learned Arabic.
"This compilation offers a fascinating glimpse at ancient gemology,
according to the book _Best Thoughts on the Best of Stones_, by Ahmad
ibn Yusuf al Tifaschi (1184-1254). Its translation marks the first
time that early Arab gemological literature has been studied by a
modern Arab gemologist. Mrs. Huda is a competent translator who has
endeavored to make the contents of this pioneering work easily
accessible to English-speaking readers. She aimed the book at 'all
readers interested in gemology, mineralogy, jewelry, history, Arab
heritage, Islamic art, and the history of science.' In the reviewers'
opinion, she has accomplished her goals with great success...."
"...includes a glossary of gem names in English with their ancient and
modern Arabic names...places al Tifaschi's work in context by
describing the era in which he wrote and the nature of the Arabic
literature on gems from the eighth to the 13th centuries....explains
the monetary terms, weights, and measures employed at that time...."
"For each gemstone, al Tifaschi briefly describes how the gem is
formed; its localities, qualities, characteristics, benefits (mostly
medicinal and talismanic), and prices; and, in some cases, its lapidary
treatment...."
reviewed by Si and Ann Frazier, Lapidary Journal Correspondents
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 02:35:58 -0400
From: Warren & Meredith Harmon <ravenleaf at juno.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Rose-Cut Garnets
As far as my research shows, the only cuts used in period were cabbing
(for any gem they could get their hands on) and some tabling of diamond
crystals around mid to late 15th cent. From what I've been told, and
seen in museums, the rose cut is just a smidge OOP. I haven't gotten my
mitts on good pics of the Crown Jewels, though, and my bet is that if
anyone has it, it's them - England had quite a nice pipeline to India for
good gems for awhile. Also, let me check a Natl Geographic mag from a
while ago - they actually got some Shahs to open up the coffers, so I'll
see if anything's visible there.
Cameos, intaglios, beads, cabs...hmm, no faceting besides tabling...
(.....)
Okay, just checked: *Some* of the emeralds in the Iran Crown Jewels
**may** have been tabled, with a few side factes thrown in for effect. A
rough emerald cut, if you will. There is *one* good picture from the
Zucker Ring Collection (he collects "antique" rings) that shows what
looks to be a ruby, and it's **roughly** emerald cut (tabled, then four
rough angles that go below the bezel). I'm pretty sure the ring in the
middle shows a diamond crystal mounted as is, and there's a ring at the
bottom of the pic that shows 7 cabbed garnets or amethysts. Another
shows a rough-set opal, and another a cabbed lapis, and another is carved
straight from lapis and sports a seated ram - Etruscan, IMO. One ring may
*possibly* show a heart-shaped garnet set in a gold hand, but that ring
looks to be Victorian in age. Most of the Zucker Collection is Arabic,
Jewish, and Middle East rings...except for the hand ring, and the carved
carnelian ring it's resting on, the rings in the pic don't look to be any
later than the 1400's. If you want to see this pic (great ref), check
out Smithsonian Magazine, July 1997, Vol 28 No 4, page 73. And, if
ANYBODY gets their hands on some of those orange pearls, GET ME
ONE!!!!!!!!
-Caro
Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 22:30:35 -0500 (CDT)
From: <timbeck at ix.netcom.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Rose Cut Garnets
Rose cut is documentable to the 16th cen. But from what, I have seen, only diamonds were rose cut. There is plenty of documentation for faceting of stones from at least the 13th cen. But the facets are not the same. They are more based on shaping the stone [rather] than creating reflected light. Square or rectangular stones typically have four "facet" faces and a flat back. Stones were carved for millenia and they were rubbed into shape and polished for the majority of our period.
Diamonds were cleaved and polished by the 15th cen. Rose cuts diamonds were in late period. Facets as we know them today really developed well after our period. If I had a book around I could be fill in a bit more detail.
Timothy
From: Lissa McCollum <lissamc at primenet.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: 15th c. jewelry/gems question
Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 00:51:55 -0700
Organization: Forest Moon Creations
Mary Osmanski wrote:
> A novelist friend of mine asked me the following question:
>
> I need some suggestions of what the main stone that would have been in
> a necklace made in the mid to late 15th century. It would have been
> created, perhaps in Spain during that period. Also the estimated worth
> now would be in the two to three million dollar range. Where and when
> it was made is open to change. The one thing that isn't is the name of
> the stone The Eye of Dawn.
>
> My suggestion to him were ruby or emerald. Does anyone here have any
> more authoritative suggestions?
I know that there was at least one pendant of 3 rubies that was named.
That was 'Three Brothers', captured by Carles the Bold from the Swiss
in 1476. That pendant also had a diamond and pearls in it. Another stone
that was popular in that time period is the sapphire, which would go
nicely with the name chosen. Yet another possibility is the red spinel,
known as balas rubies. The 14th century 'Black Prince's Ruby' was one
of those. Lets see...amethyst, coral, rock crystal, amber, emerald,
turquoise, and garnet were all used. Stones would have probably been
table cut, or polished as cabochons, though there is evidence of
diamond faceting as early as the mid 15th century. I have no idea
which stones would be worth that much nowadays, unless they were
intact in a famous piece like the 'Three Brothers' pendant.
Gwen
(reading from 'The Necklace' by Daniela Mascetti, and 'Jewelry' by
Clare Phillips)
Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 00:52:11 -0500
From: "RANDALL DIAMOND" <ringofkings at mindspring.com>
Subject: SC - SC- Semi Precious Stones and Pearls
>>>I have put a small bibliography on lapidaries and their history online:
http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~gloning/steinbib.htm
PLEASE, email me your additions and corrections!<<<<
Quite an admirable biliogaphy, Thomas! I would hardly
call it small though. You might add the following:
Leonardi, Camilli , Speculum Lapidium, Venetia, 1502.
Cardani, "De subtilitate," Basileae, 1560.
Baccii, Andreae, "Da gemmis et lapidibus pretiosis," Latin trans.
by Wolfgang Gabellhover, Francofurti, 1603.
Boyle, Roberto, "Specimen de Gemmarum, Origine & Virtutibus,"
Cologne, 1680.
But most especially:
Kunz, G.F. & Stevenson, C.H.. The Book of the Pearl: the History,
Art, Science and Industry of the Queen of Gems, Century
Company, NY, 1908, Reprinted by Dover, NY, 1993.
George Kunz has several more books, I don't have at hand
for biblio information, but I believe one was titled,
Shakespeare and Precious Stones (1916)
Also check out John Sinkankas for more technical
data on stones. Kunz and Sinkankas are fairly
acknowledged as the two leading authorities on
gemstones of the twentieth century.
Akim Yaroslavich
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 14:22:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jenne Heise <jenne at mail.browser.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Gemstonesy
> >>> A further consideration is that something labelled "synthetic X" may
> >>> actually be "synthetic Y in a color that looks like X." Many
> >>> synthetic gemstones are either corundum or spinel, colored to match
> >>> whatever they are supposed to be.
Part of that is because a proportion of gemstones ARE corundum (rubies,
sapphires etc) classified by the color they are. :) Furthermore, the
situation in period was even more murky: Red spinel would in fact be a
period 'ruby' as they didn't have the same sophisticated classification
schemes and tests we do: hence 'The Black Prince's Ruby', which is a
spinel.
I would suspect that for our purposes, if the synthetic process resembles
the process by which the gem is created in nature, it is probably a
reasonable substitute: cultured pearls for pearls, etc. Since we aren't
practicing the same kind of symbolic magick based on value the original
users did, having the same chemical make-up ought to be enough.
An excellent period work on gemstones available in translation from
Scarecrow Press is:
_Arab Roots of Gemology: Ahmad ibn Yusuf Al Tifaschi's Best Thoughts on
the Best of Stones_ Samir Najm Abul Huda. Scarecrow Press, 1997. $45.00.
ISBN:0-8108-3294-1
It's available directly from Scarecrow at:
http://www.scarecrowpress.com/Catalog/
Jadwiga, who doesn't know all that much but a) has a friend who is an
amateur lapidary and b) knowns where to look it up.
- --
Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne at tulgey.browser.net
From: "William Black" <william.black at hotmail.co.uk>
Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval
Subject: Re: Small Things
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 08:14:02 +0100
"celia" <c_a_blay at hotmail.com> wrote in message
> It's not difficult to think of Anglo Saxon gold work with fine
> sharp engraving on it, what the tools were made of is
> impossible to tell, but they could do the job.
> I'm sure you've engraved metal, there's a knack to it,
> but a sharp tool is essential
It's actually easier to get a sharp edge on a softer material, but it
doesn't last as long.
Modern gravers and scorpers are usually made of a good quality steel with a
ground edge. You have to grind your own edge as the tools are far too long
when you get them. Some of the new Swiss scorpers are made from a much
harder 'tool steel' and hold their edge for much longer, but they're much
more difficult to grind down and sharpen.
When I was doing my diamond setting training I was told not to use the
harder scorpers because a diamond setter's scorpers need a very precisely
positioned cutting edge and the harder tools are very difficult to sharpen
properly unless you're very experienced.
--
William Black
From: "William Black" <william.black at hotmail.co.uk>
Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval
Subject: Re: Small Things
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2006 12:09:56 +0100
"celia" <c_a_blay at hotmail.com> wrote
> This is true and they are more user friendly but there is
> no way that even modern hard tool steel could engrave
> hard gemstones so is this a case of the notorious
> secretiveness of lapidaries ?
There's a picture of St Eligious in the British Museum book called 'Medieval
Goldsmiths' and he's using a scorper exactly like one of mine, complete
with mushroom shaped handle with brass ferule.
Not sure how fine they could make them and they're obviously not as
consistant as the modern ones but medieval tool making was pretty good if
you were paying serious money...
Also a goldsmith should be able to make their own tools, but making gravers
and scorpers is pretty tedious stuff, you have to shorten, mount, grind
and sharpen them yourself even these days, and that's not fun either...
There are a couple of ways to engrave gemstones. One is to mount another
harder gemstone on the end of a dop stick and use that as a graver, but I
am informed it's dead eay to slip. The other is to put a mask over the bits
you want to keep and use a rubbing technique to remove the stuff you don't.
Obviously today people use a sand blaster or a tumbler with an assortment of
media loaded into it.
--
William Black
From: "celia" <c_a_blay at hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: soc.history.medieval
Subject: Re: Small Things
Date: 17 Jul 2006 04:25:10 -0700
William Black wrote:
> "celia" <c_a_blay at hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> > This is true and they are more user friendly but there is
> > no way that even modern hard tool steel could engrave
> > hard gemstones so is this a case of the notorious
> > secretiveness of lapidaries ?
>
> There's a picture of St Eligious in the British Museum book called 'Medieval
> Goldsmiths' and he's using a scorper exactly like one of mine, complete
> with mushroom shaped handle with brass ferule.
This one ?
http://www.wga.hu/art/m/manuel/eligius.jpg
St Eligius is the one with the hammer.
The halo is a dead giveaway.
> Not sure how fine they could make them and they're obviously not as
> consistant as the modern ones but medieval tool making was pretty good if
> you were paying serious money...
>
> Also a goldsmith should be able to make their own tools, but making gravers
> and scorpers is pretty tedious stuff, you have to shorten, mount, grind
> and sharpen them yourself even these days, and that's not fun either...
>
> There are a couple of ways to engrave gemstones. One is to mount another
> harder gemstone on the end of a dop stick and use that as a graver, but I
> am informed it's dead eay to slip. The other is to put a mask over the bits
> you want to keep and use a rubbing technique to remove the stuff you don't.
> Obviously today people use a sand blaster or a tumbler with an assortment of
> media loaded into it.
I'll go with the dopping method, the other would only work on
soft stones with shallow engraving.
The trouble with dopping wax is that it gets brittle in cold
temperatures. A point of stone set in a wooden handle
even if then reinforced with dopping wax to keep it steady
would be better. No problem, it's only a finer version of
an agate burnisher and they were used from a very early date
for setting stones and smoothing leather, I've made one in the
past and it beats metal for burnishing.
Celia
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2007 23:40:41 -0500
From: chawkswrth at aol.com
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT OOP Diamonds was tedious process
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Diamonds have been found all through the ages, dating back to the
Pharaohs. Basic diamond cutting was available even earlier then the
16th century, just not the many facets you see today.
I apologize-I do not have my books handy, or I could give you a
clearer history.
Helen
Old dryed up Jewelry Sales Manager-type (Thankfully retired and more
steadly employed)
THLord Stefan li Rous asked:
<<< Do we know what areas diamonds were found in, in period? Since faceting of
jewels was a late period invention, did diamonds even rank high on the scale of
precious gems in period? >>>
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 15:14:11 -0600
From: "Daniel & Elizabeth Phelps" <dephelps at embarqmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT OOP tedious process
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Regards diamonds, they were know to the arabs in period and are mentioned in
at least one period book I can recall in translation. If I recall correctly
diamonds in the US's northeastern and northern part of the midwest have been
found as the result of glacial float out of Canada from the last ice age. A
small number have turned up in North Carolina over the years but as to where
those came from no one knows. Arkansas has a diamond "pipe" that is
accessable to the public. Periodically gems of several carats turn up
there. What with global warming there have been diamond "strikes" in
Canada and Greenland relatively recently.
Daniel
mka Daniel C. Phelps, P.G.
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 15:50:37 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT OOP Diamonds was tedious process
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Diamonds appear to have been found originally in India and Borneo. They
were known in Antiquity and the original finds are probably prehistoric. I
suspect the original finds were alluvial diamonds (washed out of the matrix
rock and found in river sand). Later finds are more diverse geographically
and are usually associated with the erosion of igneous rocks to expose
deposits of Kimberlite, a type of peridotite. In 1970/71, I was in a
prospecting class taught by Leo Mark Anthony, one of the best mining
engineers in Alaska, when he showed slides of a series of Kimberlite pipes
he had found in British Columbia while prospecting for tungsten. I
occasionally wonder if he wasn't the person who started the Canadian diamond
industry.
In the 1st Century CE, Pliny associates diamond mining with Ethiopia,
Macedonia, India, Arabia, and Cyprus.
Diamonds were considered valuable because of their rarity and their
hardness. A stone that can cut metal and other stones has amazing value.
To quote Pliny, "The diamond, known for a long time only to kings and then
to very few of them, has greater value than any other human possession, and
not merely than any other gemstone." and "When a diamond is successfully
broken, it disintegrates into splinters so small as to be scarcely visible.
These fragments are greatly sought after by engravers and are inserted by
them into their iron tools because the cut into the hardest surfaces with
little effort." There is archeological evidence of diamond bit drills being
used in Yemen in the 4th Century BCE.
Diamonds have a square crystalline structure that in high quality stones
translates into a rather flashy natural octahedral crystal. A natural
octahedral catches the eye quite nicely without facetting. Since high
quality natural stones are rare, diamond cutting produces an appealing
gemstone from a more plebian diamond. Diamond cutting in Europe probably
starts in 14th Century Venice. Faceting enhances the natural reflectivity
of the stone.
For more on diamonds, let me recommend the American Museum of Natural
History:
http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/diamonds/
Bear
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 23:15:44 -0500
From: Gretchen Beck <grm at andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Precious stones to ward off evils
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
--On Monday, November 26, 2007 10:45 PM -0600 Daniel & Elizabeth Phelps
<dephelps at embarqmail.com> wrote:
> I suggest that diamonds would have been of less value as a gem stone in
> period compaired to stones more easily worked and of more vivid hues.
> Its value would have been that it would scratch all other stones and
> metal as well.
I'm not sure I agree -- rarer and harder to work tend to make a stone more
valueable, not less. Note too that what the ancient's called diamond (or
adamas/adamant) may not necessarily be what we identify as diamond...
> The only direct "period" reference I have would be to a translation of a
> period Arab book of gems and my notes on that are on a hard drive
> that I cannot access presently.
Pliny the Elder's Natural History has a chapter on the properties of
precious stones. An English translation is online at
<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%
3A1999.02.0137&query=toc:head%3D%232562>
toodles, margaret
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 20:33:55 -0800
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Precious stones to ward off evils
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
I think there are some prehistoric jade finds in Europe.
Ogden's book on jewelry in classical antiquity goes through the
question of European jades in considerable detail; as best I
remember, he concludes that every case is a misidentification. It
seems to have been regarded as a new gemstone when the Spanish
brought it back from the New World, hence the Spanish name.
> A rumored little jade Buda found in an early Norse grave not withstanding it
> is my understanding that jade was relatively unknow in Europe through out
> all but late period as it was a gem of the orient and the new world.
>
> I suggest that diamonds would have been of less value as a gem stone in
> period compaired to stones more easily worked and of more vivid hues. Its
> value would have been that it would scratch all other stones and
> metal as well.
As best I recall, Cellini includes diamond among the precious stones.
> It is my conjecture that a persona of 15th century Christian Spain would
> intersect with Moslem and Jewish traditions but would not yet have
> direct access to the orient or the new world.
Yes.
> The only direct "period" reference I have would be to a translation of a
> period Arab book of gems and my notes on that are on a hard drive
> that I cannot access presently.
Pliny discusses the properties of gemstones in some detail. But he's
generally sceptical.
One of my favorite bits is where he mentions that if you put a
certain stone beneath your pillow, in your dreams you will see the
future.
Or at least, he adds, you will see it as well as the soothsayers do
I think Albertus Magnus discussed stones too--that should be fairly
easy to find. _De Lapidibus_? There are a number of medieval European
lapidaries with such information.
> Daniel
--
David Friedman
www.daviddfriedman.com
daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 00:22:26 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Precious stones to ward off evils
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
> A rumored little jade Buda found in an early Norse grave not withstanding
> it is my understanding that jade was relatively unknow in Europe through out
> all but late period as it was a gem of the orient and the new world.
>
> I suggest that diamonds would have been of less value as a gem stone in
> period compaired to stones more easily worked and of more vivid hues. Its
> value would have been that it would scratch all other stones and
> metal as well.
>
<clipped>
>
> Daniel
Pliny on the otherhand suggests that they are the most valuable of gems and
from his description of their shape it is fairly obvious he is referring to
the rare diamonds that naturally display their crystalline structure.
There is a break between Antiquity and the High Middle Ages where diamonds
seem to be relatively unknown in Europe. Some time in the 14th Century,
Venice became the diamond cutting center of Europe, probably as an adjunct
to the spice trade.
Bear
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 07:03:25 -0500
From: "Elaine Koogler" <kiridono at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Precious stones to ward off evils
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
I have done some research on jade, particularly as I wanted to use it
as part of my heraldic title. Jade appears to have been encountered
first by the Spanish in the Americas in the 15th century, where it was
used as a specific against kidney disease. Because of this, the
Spanish called the stone "ijada de piedra" or "stone of the kidney."
The French began use of the stone in jewelry after that and
transliterated the name into French...can't remember the French
equivalent. It then passed over the Channel into English as "jade."
This would have been the semi-precious jade, nephrite, which is what
is mined in the Americas including central and South America as well
as Alaska. I don't know of any instance, even close to period, of
precious jade, jadeite, in Europe. This stone is found in China and in
southeast Asia. All of the ceremonial jade implements in China were
nephrite jade...and it was referred to as the "Stone of Heaven." The
character/kanji for Emperor is, interestingly enough, the same as jade
(a single vertical stroke with three horizontal strokes) with a single
dot added on the bottom crosswise stroke.
Kiri
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 09:15:06 -0500
From: "Sharon R. Saroff" <sindara at pobox.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Precious stones to ward off evils
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
A number of years ago I did a research paper on bead lore. I
compiled information on every stone I could think of. Only part of
my research went into the paper. I remember that blue stones
protected against the evil eye. Lapis was the favorite in the Middle
East. Blue eye beads were also a favorite.
HL Sindara
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 02:23:50 +0000 (GMT)
From: emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Precious stones
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
There are many books on precious stones. Some of them are online.
http://juliusruska.digilibrary.de/q069/q069.html
http://www.uni-giessen.de/gloning/lap/lap_zett.htm
http://edocs.ub.uni-frankfurt.de/volltexte/2007/3947/
I am sure there are more of this kind out there.
As for Spanish sources:
Alfonso X, Rey de Castilla: Lapidario. Texto ?ntegro en versi?n de
Mar?a Brey Marin~o. Madrid: Editorial Castalia 1968.
Alfonso X: ?Lapidario? (seg?n el manuscrito escurialense H.I.15).
Introducci?n, edici?n, notas y vocabulario de Sagrario Rodr?guez M.
Montalvo. Pr?logo de Rafael Lapesa. Madrid 1981.
Faraudo de Saint-Germain, L.: Noticia de un lapidario valenciano del
siglo XV. In: Bolet?n de la Real Academia de Buenas Letras de
Barcelona 18 (1945) 192-216.
Nunemaker, J.H.: The lapidary of Marbode and a Spanish adaptation.
In: Speculum 13 (1938) 62-67.
Nunemaker, J.H.: In pursuit of the sources of the Alfonsine
lapidaries. In: Speculum 14 (1939).
Isidor might be a good source as well (known as Isidor of Sevilla,
Isidorus Hispalensis). The text is online as well:
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/L/Roman/Texts/Isidore/16*.html
Emilio
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 22:58:41 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Precious stones to ward off evils
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
> While we are at it Daniel sent a website concerning precious stones
> in the Roman Empire. Obviously according to this Romans were not wearing
> precious stones in rings while eating to protect oneself against poison,
> which is the topic at hand. After reading the entire essay. I found a
> important sentence: the "method of polishing diamonds was first
> discovered in 1456, by Louis Berquen, a citizen of Bruges ." Fascinating
> cause such inventions travel slowly so probably when one of you said
> diamonds were cheaper than other precious stones you are totally correct
> because of the lack of polish. This points to a logic error on the part
> of Spanish historians claiming diamonds were used in 1434 to ward of
> poison.
High quality, natural octahedral diamonds are rare and are therefore very
costly. Pliny's comment is "The diamond, known for a long time only to
kings and then to very few of them, has a greater value than any other human
possession, and not merely than any other gemstone." From this, I assume
Romans did not generally wear diamonds because they could not afford them
and the idea that diamonds are cheaper than other stones because they lack
polish is false.
Diamond cutting increased the supply of available diamonds. European
diamond cutting appears to begin in Venice between 1330 and 1350. The
earliest representation of a facetting machine is by Zwolle in 1439. The
1456 date for Berquen is open to question as some sources list his birth as
1450. Berquen was the first cutter to grind off the upper and lower points
of the octahedral, the claim that he was the person who introduced diamond
cutting to Europe is false. Giacomo Tagliacarne is definitely contemporary
to Berquen and very likely predates him.
Since diamond cutting in Europe was 80-100 years old in 1434, I wouldn't
write off the claims that they were used then to ward off poison without
quite a bit more research.
Bear
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 15:13:46 -0800
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Precious stones to ward off evils
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
> I have done some research on jade, particularly as I wanted to use it
> as part of my heraldic title. Jade appears to have been encountered
> first by the Spanish in the Americas in the 15th century, where it was
> used as a specific against kidney disease. Because of this, the
> Spanish called the stone "ijada de piedra" or "stone of the kidney."
I think the reason is that botryoidal jade looks
like kidneys. I don't know if the name is
directly from that, or indirectly along the lines
you suggest.
> The French began use of the stone in jewelry after that and
> transliterated the name into French...can't remember the French
> equivalent. It then passed over the Channel into English as "jade."
> This would have been the semi-precious jade, nephrite, which is what
> is mined in the Americas including central and South America as well
> as Alaska. I don't know of any instance, even close to period, of
> precious jade, jadeite, in Europe.
I'm not sure why you regard Jadeite as "precious"
and nephrite as "semi-precious." I can't speak to
Chinese usage, but in western terminology both
are semi-precious stones.
My conjecture, incidentally, is that because jade
was greatly valued in China, rough jade found
between China and the west, for instance in
Burma,, would get exported east rather than west.
Hence the stone was unknown in medieval Europe,
unlike some other stones that also had to be
brought considerable distances.
> This stone is found in China and in
> southeast Asia. All of the ceremonial jade implements in China were
> nephrite jade...and it was referred to as the "Stone of Heaven." The
> character/kanji for Emperor is, interestingly enough, the same as jade
> (a single vertical stroke with three horizontal strokes) with a single
> dot added on the bottom crosswise stroke.
>
> Kiri
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 22:11:19 -0500
From: "Elaine Koogler" <kiridono at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Precious stones to ward off evils
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
On Nov 30, 2007 6:13 PM, David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com> wrote:
> I think the reason is that botryoidal jade looks
> like kidneys. I don't know if the name is
> directly from that, or indirectly along the lines
> you suggest.
This was not conjecture on my part, but information that I gleaned from Web
sites (not Wikipedia, by the bye), but sites from an international jem
organization. Of course they could be wrong, but I think it's likely that
they knew what they were talking about, especially as I found the same
information on several sites. I don't remember which sites they were at the
moment, but I can probably do some reconstruction if necessary.
> I'm not sure why you regard Jadeite as "precious"
> and nephrite as "semi-precious." I can't speak to
> Chinese usage, but in western terminology both
> are semi-precious stones.
I guess this comes from the fact that I worked with Chinese jewelers in Hong
Kong and Thailand...and in Hawaii...and this is what I was told. I also
found the information while doing independent research for my Masters degree
at the Freer Gallery of the
Smithsonian Institution in Washington, D. C. Also, as a shopkeeper selling
both types of jewelry, I can tell you that the prices of the two types of
jade, at least in my experience were quite different. Sometime, go into a
jewelry store that specializes in jade and price a piece of Imperial jade,
one type of jadeite. Imperial jade is a vibrant green jade that is so
translucent that a newspaper can be read through a 1/8" piece of the stone.
> My conjecture, incidentally, is that because jade
> was greatly valued in China, rough jade found
> between China and the west, for instance in
> Burma,, would get exported east rather than west.
> Hence the stone was unknown in medieval Europe,
> unlike some other stones that also had to be
> brought considerable distances.
A very plausible explanation. Your Grace, I don't mean to sound
argumentative...I just wanted you, and the rest of the list, to know that my
statements were made based on some fairly extensive research that I have
done.
Kiri
Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2007 20:41:18 -0300
From: Suey <lordhunt at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Precious stones to ward off evils
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Reviewing the precious stones the only ones I have [seen] worn in rings to ward
off evil in medieval Spain are: agatha, crisopraza, coral, diamond,
emerald, garnet, jacinth or hyacinth, mannera? (unidentified precious
stone), L. /manus/, hand + arium (ario [relating to the hand]), mustika
bezoar pearls, quartz, ruby, serpentine and sard or carnelian. Funny
there are 12. What were the 12 stones Apocalipsis 21:20? Most of mine
come from Villena who generalizes saying they annul poison in foods and
polluted air. That does not satisfy me. There is more to it. There are
cold stones for evils in warm foods and warm stones for those in cold
foods.
Suey
Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 12:55:23 +1300
From: Adele de Maisieres <ladyadele at paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Precious stones to ward off evils
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Suey wrote:
> Reviewing the precious stones the only ones I have worn in rings to ward
> off evil in medieval Spain are: agatha, crisopraza, coral, diamond,
> emerald, garnet, jacinth or hyacinth, mannera? (unidentified precious
> stone), L. /manus/, hand + arium (ario [relating to the hand]), mustika
> bezoar pearls, quartz, ruby, serpentine and sard or carnelian. Funny
> there are 12. What were the 12 stones Apocalipsis 21:20?
19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all
manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second,
sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the
eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the
eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
--
Adele de Maisieres
Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2007 19:20:57 -0500
From: Gretchen Beck <grm at andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Precious stones to ward off evils
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
--On Sunday, December 02, 2007 6:14 PM -0600 Terry Decker
<t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> The quick ref I'm looking at translates "ijada" as flank and "piedra de
> ijada" as flank stone. It derives from the Latin "ilia" and
> becomes jade from the French "l'ejade."
FWIW, here's what the Oxford English Dictionary says about the
etymology of the word "jade"
[= F. le jade (1667 in Hatz.-Darm.), for l'ejade (Voiture, 1633) = It. iada
(Florio, 1598), ad. Sp. ijada in piedra de ijada or yjada (Monardes, 1569),
lit. ?colic stone?, f. ijada, yjada, ?the small ribs, the collike, the
flanke? (Minsheu); cf. the synonym NEPHRITE, f. Gr. kidneys, reins.
The transformation of F. l'ejade fem. into le jade masc. was an error
made when the word was as yet unfamiliar: see Athen?um, 20 Oct. 1900.]
toodles, margaret
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 18:26:35 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Precious stones to ward off evils
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Twelve. Twelve months, twelve signs of the Zodiac. The stones Suey listed
are a mix of ancient and modern birthstones. The ones listed by Adele are
the ancient birthstones, if I'm not mistaken. This suggest to me that these
stones are believed to be related to the signs of the Zodiac and that their
assumed powers may derive from the virtues of the sign to which they are
related. Just a thought.
Bear
Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 02:17:48 +0000 (GMT)
From: emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Precious stones to ward off evils
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
> Twelve. Twelve months, twelve signs of the Zodiac.
The Middle English "Boke of Stones", edited by Keiser in 1984, starts
off with biblical references, among others to 2 Mose (Exodus) 28,17,
which deals with the priest Aaron. The twelve precious stones are
connected to the twelve sons of Israel (the Vulgata says:
"habebuntque nomina filiorum Israhel").
"And wyse men shulde not doute that god ne hath put vertu In stones &
herbes & wordes.
& who-so beleueth hit not, but ayeinseith hit, he ne is but a synner.
The bible witnesseth hit that god commaunded be his mouth to moyses the prophete that he shulde put the twelue stones, the whech he had myde [of] many maneres in a moos clene & fine, quarre of foure handbrede of lencth & brede in foure corners, in euery corner thre stones (...) & hanged vppon the breste of aaron that was the first preest of the Iewys. The names of the twelue stones that god
hath named to moyses the prophete be his mouth ben thise: The firste stone ...".
Similarly, the "Lapidaire de Philippe" says: "... Et doit on sauoir que par le commendement nostre seignor furent mises .Xii. pierres preciouses en .i. pairement que fust mis sor le pis Aaron, le premier prestre des iuis. ...".
Emilio
Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2007 22:16:01 -0800
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Precious stones to ward off evils
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
> Reviewing the precious stones the only ones I have worn in rings to
> ward off evil in medieval Spain are: agatha, crisopraza,
Chrysoprase?
> coral, diamond,
> emerald, garnet, jacinth or hyacinth, mannera? (unidentified precious
> stone), L. /manus/, hand + arium (ario [relating to the hand]), mustika
> bezoar pearls, quartz, ruby, serpentine and sard or carnelian. Funny
> there are 12. What were the 12 stones Apocalipsis 21:20? Most of mine
> come from Villena who generalizes saying they annul poison in foods and
> polluted air. That does not satisfy me. There is more to it. There are
> cold stones for evils in warm foods and warm stones for those in
> cold foods.
> Suey
I think a number of sources claim that amethyst defends against
drunkenness.
--
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com
Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2007 21:36:59 -0300
From: Suey <lordhunt at gmail.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Gems preventing poisoning
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
My reference to this subject comes from Luis Alonso Luengo's speech
on the Suero de Quinones jousting tournament in 1434, who unkindly does
not give his source here but quotes that the stones worn on the fingers
which were the 'ruby, diamond, jacinth or hyacinth, coral and sard or
carnelian plus lapidary.' He goes on to the cold stone: diamond; hot:
"mannera"; and "galacio," 'which attracts clouds'??? Why do we want to
attract clouds?
Curious the diamond, mentioned twice, after what you said Emilio,
that they were not properly polished until the latter part of the 15th
C. On the other hand, I find Alonso Luengo the most faithful to
documents concerning what was said in this conference on Spanish Leonese
cooking, the speeches of which were published in 1994. Alonso is right
on with Villena and Sanchez Albornoz quotes.
I really would appreciate any specific info on the qualities of the
stones mentioned above to prevent poisoning, hot or cold, relations to
the four humors etc. This is fascinating to me.
Suey
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 19:13:51 -0300
From: Suey <lordhunt at gmail.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Gems preventing poisoning
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
On diamonds, Emilio wrote that as they were not polished properly
until the 1450's he believes them an error but the original source turns
out to be Juan de Encina who wrote this between 1439-1440 and mentions
them twice in the text on Suero de Qui?ones jousting tournament.
Got a gem of a gem today - "galicio". There was an area in Turkey
today called Galicia and there is that of Spain. I find no scientific
name for this. It comes from Encina as well. Does anyone have any idea
what this could be? I cannot even fathom a color for it. 'It freed
eaters of poisonous foods and other misfortunes that could occur while
eating.'
Suey
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2007 23:27:40 +0000 (GMT)
From: emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Gems preventing poisoning
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
> ... I have a little problem with your
> citations in Italian, German and Middle English...If you prefer
> modern English: Many articles on the following site mention old
> sources
in modern English paraphrase:
http://www.jjkent.com/articles/precious-stones-guide-vol9/index.htm
E.g.: http://www.jjkent.com/articles/medicinal-virtues-emeralds.htm
("... The emerald was employed as an antidote
for poisons and for poisoned wounds, as well as against demoniacal
possession. (Lapidario del Rey D. Alfonso X, Codice Original, Madrid,
1881, f. xv.)")
This passage in question was translated into Castilian by Maria Brey
Marino as follows:
46. De la piedra que tiene nombre "zamorat".
Del d?cimosexto grado del signo de Tauro es la piedra a
que dicen en ar?bigo "zamorat" y en latin "esmeralda". Esta piedra
es verde, de muy hermosa verdura, y cuanto m?s lo es, tanto es
mejor. Mezclada es de naturaleza de tierra y de piedra; y
es, de su naturaleza, fr?a y seca. H?cese mucha en las minas
de oro y h?llanla en tierra de Occidente m?s que en otro lugar.
Su virtud es tal que sirve contra todos los t?sigos mortales
y heridas o mordeduras de bestias venenosas; si tomaren de ella
peso de una dracma, la molieren, la cernieren y la dieren a beber
con vino o con agua al hombre envenenado, sana, que no muere ...
There are other places where it is said that you have to wear the
gemstone around your neck, on the left hand etc.
Here is C.W. King's "Antique gems"; it includes a translation of Marbod's
Liber de lapidibus seu de gemmis, which was probably the most important
text during the Middle Ages.
http://books.google.com/books?
id=PRgGAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=intitle:gems&lr=&num=100&as_brr=1
Marbod starts here:
http://books.google.com/books?
id=PRgGAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=intitle:gems&lr=&num=100&as_brr=1
#PPA389,M1
(John Riddle, in his edition of Marbod, suggests alternative
translations now and then but still reprints King's translation.)
Could you please quote, what Alfonso Luengo wrote?
Another valuable article is Urban Tigner Holmes's "Mediaeval gem
stones", published in Speculum, vol. 9, 1934, pages 195-204. Among
other things, he used inventories of kings in order to see what kinds
of gems they really had.
There is also a 15th century spanisch adaption of Marbode, on which
see Nunemaker in a short article in Speculum, vol. 13, 1938, page 62-67.
Of course, reading the old texts in the original language opens a field
which is much wider. E.g., there is a transcription of
the "Lapidaire" attributed to Jean de Mandeville:
http://www.univ-provence.fr/Local/cuerma/dir/user-1086/Gontero-
lapidaireFV.pdf
A printed "lapidaire en francoys compose par messire Jehan des
mandeuille cheualier"
is online at http://gallica.bnf.fr
This text, e.g., says in the chapter about "Le dyamant" that it "fuit
venin" (makes poison flee);
This echos a passage in Marbod's "De adamante": "Atra venena fugat"
'it chases away black poisions' (John Riddle, improving on King's
translation).
Emilio
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 20:13:19 -0300
From: Suey <lordhunt at gmail.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Gems preventing poisoning
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
My many thanks to Emilio Szabo for your interest in this matter and all
the websites you provided. I think now I can almost complete my own
homework assignment better. The text Emilio requested is as follows:
Alonso Luengo, Luis, "La Gastronomia en el passo honroso de Suero de
Qui?ones. _Actas del congreso de gastronom?a popular leonesa_.
Diputaci?n Provincial de Le?n. 1944:44:
Se?alan los lapidarios, que cada piedra preciosa acumula
"/virtud contra determinada ponzo?a e aire infecto: rub?, diamante, e
gigorza, e coral, e olicornio. . ./" Y libran a los comensales de los
diab?licos venenos de los alimentos y otras desgracias que al comer
puedan acontecer. As?, el coral detiene el rayo; el "galacio" atrae a
las nubes; el "granate" recoge el calor; y aquella piedra preciosa del
Gran Chamberlan que cuando alguno dice en su presencia una mentira, muda
el color. Y otras en fin, comenta Villena -- "como la que se face con el
coraz?n de ome muerto con veneno endurecido o lapirificado con fuego
revervante", piedra esta que, puesta sobre las l?as o guantes que ha de
usar el Maestresala, tiene tal poder que enlaza con la r?brica de su
fulgor extraordinarios, todo los fulgores de las dem?s piedras preciosas
-- que est?n en la mano de cada comensal -- y sienta una protecci?n
general contra todos los maleficios diab?licos.
Dos clases de piedras preciosas se?alan los lapidarios como
esenciales par el comer: las piedras /fr?as /-- a la cabeza el diamante
-- contra los maleficios de los alimentos calientes o de sangre - como
la carne - ; y las piedras calientes -- el granate y la manera contra
los maleficios de alimentos fr?os - no de sangre -- como los pescados.
Now I see by this that not only can I not find what 'galacio' is but I
am missing citations and the translation of this stone:
*gigorza,* *gorgor?a*, 1. an unidentified precious stone. It was valued
as much as a diamond or ruby, thought to annul poison in foods and had
powers to provide happiness, health, success, protection and cures among
other things. 2. a green apple. It was used to raise the spirits,
egoism, tension and stress, prevent nightmares, provide success with new
endeavors and attract friendships. 3. a 13^th C sculptured amulet. In
it was the image of a bull to fortify the eyes, stop hemorrhaging,
alleviate rheumatism and if a little piece of money was carried with it
at all times, financial success was possible. **
Where I got the above info is beyond me. The only 'gigorza' I have heard of is Emilio di Gigorza, the baritone, second husband of Emma Eames.
I can't find the Latin link between 'Emilio' and a very valuable
green stone I believe, any ideas?
Suey
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 19:14:24 -0300
From: Suey <lordhunt at gmail.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Gems preventing poisoning
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
I wrote:
> *gigorza,* *gorgor?a*, 1. an unidentified precious stone. It was valued
> as much as a diamond or ruby, thought to annul poison in foods and had
> powers to provide happiness, health, success, protection and cures
> among other things. 2. a green apple. ble, ble, ble.
Nay, nay nay. That's a bunch of garbage! Just answered my own
question. Gigorza is Old Castellan for jacinth, hyacinth, a
reddish-orange gem. As per Villena it prevented death from poisoning if
worn on the right fingers during meals.
Looking for something else I came across Raymond Llull's (1232-1315)
opinion of the diamond: "it stops and prevents all intruding poisons. .
. " http://nora.hd.uib.no/non/echt/budapest/Selfrepr/symbol.htm
I think in Aragon, at least, the opinion of the diamond was higher than
Emilio indicates even though it was not properly polished until well
after Llull's death.
Suey
To: EKMetalsmiths at yahoogroups.com
Subj: help with chemical questions
Posted by: "Miriel" miriel.crawford at gmail.com drgnhlr
Date: Wed Jan 2, 2008 11:15 pm (PST)
I am researching period gem manufacturing (lapidary) and have
potentially discovered a way to create Onyx stones, that was done in
period.
This article: http://www.thebeadsite.com/UNI-ONYX.html indicates that
sulphuric acid was used, or rather, can be used to help dye/heat
change regular agate to onyx.
I know things like Drain-O have sulphuric acid in them, but it also
has other stuff - what are the pure forms of sulphuric acid, can it be
commercially purchased (yes, I"m going to try and answer that anyway -
no I don't care about government 'watchlists'), and could some other
chemical reaction be used as a substitute?
I'd like to document an actual attempt with this. Thanks.
Miriel
Re: help with chemical questions
Posted by: "Michael Bergman" grifarosto at comcast.net eclecticmagpie
Thu Jan 3, 2008 6:35 am (PST)
All that said, what's the procedure that you've read about, and where
did you read about it?
Britannica has one here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=TKcMAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA277&lpg=PA277&dq=converting+agate+to+onyx&source=web&ots=fTD8Ff9yQN&sig=AZogFavsUmPkQEOOjV2VPP_8bl4
It sounds like this process is basically one of introducing honey
into the pores of the rock, and then burning it with the sulphuric
acid, leaving carbon deposits. This would require a fairly strong
(and thus dangerous) concentration of sulphuric acid.
Harald Longfellow
www.prospecthillforge.com
Thanks for help and warnings
Posted by: "Miriel" miriel.crawford at gmail.com drgnhlr
Thu Jan 3, 2008 8:13 am (PST)
Ok, I admit that I wrote that on the heels of a moment of "AH HA"
after I'd read about the chemical reaction in the research.
site: http://www.thebeadsite.com/UNI-ONYX.html
paragraph: (sorry, really two) "Pliny's gemstone onyx is a humanly
altered agate. Banded agate can be turned into onyx by soaking it in a
solution of honey or sugar water over a low heat for a couple of
weeks. The duller, slightly porous bands will soak up some of this
liquid, and when the stone is heated, the sugar will caramelize in
them and turn brown. The less porous white bands remain unaffected,
emphasizing the contrast. The result is a brown onyx, deeply and
attractively banded.
If the sugar-impregnated stone is put into sulfuric acid, the sugar
will carbonize and become black. An even handsomer black onyx will
result. The Harappans were making brown onyx some 4000 years ago.
Arikamedu (q.v.) is the place where the first black onyx is thus far
recorded, more than 2000 years ago."
And I will also admit that my elementary science went out the window
last night (it was 2am! Even though that's my normal schedule...yikes,
what a case of the dumbs) in my enthusiasm.
I do know basic lab safety - but since I haven't had to 'use' these
bits stored in my brain, the information didn't immediately surface.
As for confusing Drain-O with Sulphuric Acid, I blame that on
misinterpreting a piece of information: http://tinyurl.com/3x7zej and
specifically down near the bottom of the entry where it indicates
products using this acid: "Instant Power Liquid Drain Opener"...didn't
realize it was a link to an actual product listing (Scotch Corp
manufacture) and just transliterated "Drain Opener" with
"Drain-O"...I'm an idiot, I will be the first to admit.
Going to go find lab basics for dummies now...
Miriel, the abased.
--
<the end>