ivory-msg - 2/6/11

Ivory carving. ivory substitutes.

NOTE: See also the files: ivory-bib, horn-msg, lea-tanning-msg, bone-msg, glues-msg, tools-msg.

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From: afn03234 at freenet.ufl.edu (Ronald L. Charlotte)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: looking for an ivory substitute
Date: 30 Sep 1995 11:50:44 GMT

netscape.user at nd.edu wrote:
: I really like medieval carved ivory, and would like to try a bit of 
: carving myself. But I have found that real (uncarved) ivory is 
: prohibitively expensive, illegal to import, (and hard on the elephants.) 
: So I'm trying to find a good-looking carvable substitute. I want to make 
: a 3"x4"-ish inset for a book cover or a small casket, so tagua nuts are 
: too small. I don't care if the "ivory" is some horribly modern plastic, 
: so long as its workable, and "looks" right. Any ideas? 
: While I'm at it, I'm also interested in easily carvable substitutes for 
: rock crystal, amethyst, and reconstituted(?) amber, large enough to make 
: a goblet out of. Or maybe chess pieces. Any ideas?
: Please contact me here, or at:

For sizable pieces, the best substitute I've yet found is cattle 
jawbone.  It takes a lot of prep work to split into useable panels, but 
Ive been able to get relatively flat sections of at least that size from 
some of the larger specimens.  Compared to most other bone, it's fairly 
dense with smaller pores.  Otherwise, fossil mammoth ivory is available, 
but is quite pricey.  Finally, you can do what was often done for bone 
caskets and other flat panels: you can piece them together.
--
	al Thaalibi -- An Crosaire, Trimaris
	Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL
	afn03234 at freenet.ufl.edu 


From: Garick Chamberlin <Garick at vonkopke.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: looking for an ivory substitute
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 95 18:36:23 GMT
Organization: Drachenwald

In article <44cd09$s1m at news.nd.edu>  ** none **   writes:

> I really like medieval carved ivory, and would like to try a bit of 
> carving myself. But I have found that real (uncarved) ivory is 
> prohibitively expensive, illegal to import, (and hard on the elephants.) 
> So I'm trying to find a good-looking carvable substitute. 

(Cyrus posting from Garick's account)

As a many knife makers have found their is a substitute that looks just like
the real thing, reletively inexpensive and totally legal. It is called 
fossilized ivory. Available from any reputable knife making supplier (check out
Knives Illustrated or Blade magazine for an up to date list). Before you say
"ivory, isn't that illegal?" i restate that these are legal sources and are
checked by our "loving" government very stringently and emphasis is on 
fossilized. the usual source animal is walrus. please do not buy plastic
as it does look tacky as all get out, and it is a shame to waste all your
time and effort on something that will never look right.


From: don't at you.wanna.know? (Chuck U. Farley)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: looking for an ivory substitute
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 19:06:44 GMT
Organization: Netcom

->In article <44cd09$s1m at news.nd.edu>  ** none **   writes:
->> I really like medieval carved ivory, and would like to try a bit of 
->> carving myself. But I have found that real (uncarved) ivory is 
->> prohibitively expensive, illegal to import, (and hard on the elephants.) 
->> So I'm trying to find a good-looking carvable substitute. 

I have always used ivory micarta in knives and swords and all that when I 
needed ivory. It's about the same as ivory to carve, just a little more 
brittle, but LOTS cheaper!

Ld. Gundiok Sweinbrothar


From: Robert Ament <rament at aol.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: looking for an ivory substitute
Date: 30 Sep 1995 22:29:00 GMT
Organization: Mississippi State University

Constantine's, a woodworking supplies company carries the 
following:
     CAST POLESTER IVORY LOOK-ALIKE
          MC12  13/16" dia. rod          $ 8.50
          MC13  1 3/8" dia. rod          $18.95
          MC15  4" x 5" x 1/8" sheet     $17.95
          MC17  8" x 10" x 1/8" sheet    $64.95

The catalog claims that it has a grain structure that is 
virtially indistinguishable from elephant ivory.

Their order number is 800-223-8087

Hope this helps.
Robert of the Isles
Robert Ament


From: phall at primenet.com (Peggy Hall)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: looking for an ivory substitute
Date: 2 Oct 1995 00:12:02 GMT
Organization: Primenet (602)395-1010

netscape.user at nd.edu wrote:
[...]
: too small. I don't care if the "ivory" is some horribly modern plastic, 
: so long as its workable, and "looks" right. Any ideas? 
[...]
Have you ever tried FIMO ?  I've seen some beautifully done things that 
look like Ivory.  Use the Ivory color FIMO.  You can use like clay; it is 
very malleable.  You can also pressmold into designs.  Then bake per 
instructions.  Glaze with a coating of bt. sienna or sepia acrylic paint, 
wipe off excess. 

: While I'm at it, I'm also interested in easily carvable substitutes for 
: rock crystal, amethyst, and reconstituted(?) amber, large enough to make 
: a goblet out of. Or maybe chess pieces. Any ideas?
: Please contact me here, or at:

FIMO recipes for amber, ivory, jade, turquoise, coral and other 
semi-precious materials have appeared in "Ornament" magazine over the past 
year +.  I hear that a recipe for FIMO opals was in Lapidary Journal about 
April-May 1995.

A method for re-creating Lapis Lazuli was in the New Clay book. 

Check out the rec.crafts.polymer-clay newsgroup. 
--
==========================================================================
Peggy Hall                                              phall at primenet.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: looking for an Ivory substitute
Date: 30 Sep 1995 12:30:32 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway

<netscape.user at nd.edu>
>I really like medieval carved ivory, and would like to try a bit of 
>carving myself. But I have found that real (uncarved) ivory is 
>prohibitively expensive, illegal to import, (and hard on the elephants.) 
>So I'm trying to find a good-looking carvable substitute. I want to make 
>a 3"x4"-ish inset for a book cover or a small casket, so tagua nuts are 
>too small. I don't care if the "ivory" is some horribly modern plastic, 
>so long as its workable, and "looks" right. Any ideas? 

Have you considered bone?  While there are some differences in working the
two, there are more similarities (IMO).  Moreover, workable bone can be
gotten by visiting the nearest grocery store's pet supply aisle (while you
are likely to be able to get them at a cheaper rate from a butcher or
abattoir, the dog bones have already been cleaned).

An important thing to recognize about bone is that it is less smelly
and difficult the slower and more carefully that you proceed.  OTOH,
if you or people you may be spending time with have trouble with 
dentists, you may want to move to other substances (since the smells
of bone and power tool are very similar, and the sounds of the skritch,
skritch, of the carving tools apparently sounds a lot like getting your
teeth cleaned :) ).

>While I'm at it, I'm also interested in easily carvable substitutes for 
>rock crystal, amethyst, and reconstituted(?) amber, large enough to make 
>a goblet out of. Or maybe chess pieces. Any ideas?

I know that such materials exist, but I do not have any idea of how or
where to procure them.

"Mihi Satis Apparet Propter     Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
  Se Ipsum Appetenda Sapientia"	University of Northkeep
 -- St. Dunstan			Northkeepshire, Ansteorra
				(I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu)


From: WISH at uriacc.uri.EDU (Peter Rose)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Ivory substitute
Date: 4 Oct 1995 21:29:23 -0400
Organization: The Internet

>>been used with a great amount of success. Yes, I said NUT, as in Pecan and
>>Cashew. Your better wood working suppliers should know of it. They may even
>>have it in stock. It actually looks like ivory, when it's cut and polished. I'
>m
>>not a carver, so I can't tell you how it works.
>
>The name of the Nut is Tagua. I have one soaking now, for
>teeth in a carving of a fish.  The clerk at the store
>where I bought it advised me to soak it for 3 days before
>attempting to carve it.
>
>I took a cut at it before I put it in water - it is very
>hard.
>
>Alas - Carol seeks something larger. The largest nut in
>the bin was about 2 1/2" long.
>
      Well, according to a book I got from Lindsay Technical Books,
you can make an acceptable ivory substitute if you:

          "masticate" potatoes for 3 days in
           sulferic acid, dry between two pieces of
           blotting paper, and subject to great pressure.

I suspect this is designed for flat bits to go on pianos, but
if you've got something to use as a mold.....

Peter G. Rose     | Azelin Cola  | Ralph, the Carter, |
PO Box 3072,      | of Wishford, | of Trollhaven      |
Kingston RI 02881 | Bridge, E.K. |                    |
(401) 792-2301    | Gu. a tern migrant between 3 Quatrefoils Ar.


From: oso4sca at aol.com (OSO4SCA)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Looking for an ivory substitute
Date: 4 Oct 1995 19:57:12 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)

I know not if I should venture to assist, my knowledge being small on the
subject.

But bear with me and I shall offer what I have.

There is a material called Ivory micarta that is being used by knifemakers
and the like as a substitute for ivory. It is available from most
knifemaker supply houses.The latest Texas Knifemaker Catalog
(1-713-461-8632) list pieces of Ivory Micarta, (pieces are 5"x12" and
differing thicknesses with differing prices that range from 7.50 for 1/16"
thick to 34.50 for 1/2 inch thick, there are slabs and blocks available
too for the aspiring knifemakers out there. If interested, these ( other
suppliers) can be found in just about any issue of BLADE or KNIVES
ILLUSTRATED magazine. Or contact me and I will send you the info. Also,
there is fossilized ivory for uses like this but the cost is prohibitive. 

If you wish to try bone as a substitute, then I suggest going to you local
pet supply house and looking in the chew toy section. There can be found
processed, (including serilized) beef bones. These work well also.

I hope this helps

In service
oso

Oso4SCA at aol.com
OsoForge at aol.com


From: maclain at mindspring.com (Bill Tuttle)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: looking for an ivory substitute
Date: 7 Oct 1995 03:11:00 GMT
Organization: Gryphon's Moon

There is a kitchen counter top material called "Corian" (sp?) that is
supposed to work well for an ivory carving substitute. I have no
experiance with it, but have had it recommended by several people.

   ---Bill Tuttle      
      maclain at mindspring.com


From: sjaqua at ix.netcom.com (Scott Jaqua )
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: looking for an ivory substitute
Date: 7 Oct 1995 23:07:04 GMT
Organization: Netcom

maclain at mindspring.com (Bill Tuttle) writes: 
>
>There is a kitchen counter top material called "Corian" (sp?) that is
>supposed to work well for an ivory carving substitute. I have no
>experiance with it, but have had it recommended by several people.
>
>   ---Bill Tuttle      
>      maclain at mindspring.com

    Corian turns well in a lathe. People make writing pens with it, and
it turns out well. It has no grain, as it is a compressed resin matrix.
The only problem I see in using it as an ivory substitue is that every
piece of it that I've seen has a mottled grainy appearance similar to
granite.
    Allesaundra de Crosthwaite


From: jhrisoulas at aol.com (JHrisoulas)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: Looking for Ivory Substitute
Date: 10 Oct 1995 00:49:39 -0400

As stated in the previous post, fossil ivory would most certainly be
legal, except in California, as for some reason that has yet to be
answered, and it is quite humorous when examined, the "powers that be"
decided that fossil ivory is just as illegal as the fresh. As I understand
this was supposed to be ammended, and by now it probably has been, but for
a while there, in California, fossil Mammoth, Mastadon and fossil walrus
was illegal to sell or even own...If this has been ammended, I would like
to know.

On another topic, yes fossil walrus was worked in period, in fact, fossil
walrus ivory was a very highly prized handle material in the Mid-east.
Shirmani (walrus) grips were very sought after for grips on weapons....

Yours,
JP Hrisoulas
aka
8R


From: Barb at DISTANT-CARAVANS.reno.nv.us (Barbara Morgan)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: Looking for Ivory Substitute
Date: 10 Oct 1995 15:51:44 GMT
Organization: Great Basin Internet Services, Reno, NV

Just got one of those Bourget Bros. jewelry, craft catalogs. It has 
fossilized walrus ivory and tagua nuts. You can get copy of the catalog
by calling 800-828-3024 or write Bourget Bros., 1636 11th St., Santa Monica, 
CA 90404

Hope this helps 

Amaryllis
aka:Barb
e-mail: Barb at DISTANT-CARAVANS.reno.nv.us
http://www.greatbasin.com/~caravan/


From: Brenda L Hunter-Andrews <blhunter at mtholyoke.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: Looking for Ivory Substitute
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 1995 23:35:07 -0400
Organization: Mount Holyoke College

	With all this talk about ivory substitutes and concerning 
yourselves with propagating the ivory trade, has anyone considered 
recycling!  By this I mean piano keys from old broken-down pianos?  Some 
have enough ivory to make it more than worth your while and maybe the 
scrap brass could be sold for profit.  Often times an add placed in a 
local newpaper will bring results.  Even paying $50 would net you many 
times that amount in real ivory.  Anyone who's priced it knows.  Good luck.
Also, for those interested, I have just purchased a book called "The 
Ivory Workers Of The Middle Ages,"  By  A. M. Cust., London: George Bell 
and Sons.  1902.  I paid 25 cents for it on the library's discard table.
There is no copyright.  Hmmm...

				 Regards,
			     Augustina BeArce


From: armoury at aol.com (ARMOURY)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: looking for an ivory substitute
Date: 14 Oct 1995 08:19:00 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)

We use fossil walrus and mommoth which are legal and may be obtained from:
Rick B. Fields, 26401 Sandwich Place, Mt. Plymouth, FL 32776 Tele/Fax:
904-383-6270 ---or---Alaskan Treasures, 205 E. Dimond #514, Anchorage, AK
99515 Fax: 907-248-2328

You can also use linen Micarta (we use for knife handles which may be
obtained from Atlanta Cutlery in either block or slabs call: 404-922-3700

Ramshead Armoury, INC


From: gunnora at bga.com (Gunnora Hallakarva)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Excellent Quality Simulated Ivory Is Easy To Do (Was Re: Ivory Art)
Date: 2 Sep 1996 00:36:22 GMT
Organization: Real/Time Communications Internet customer posting

In article <Pine.SUN.3.93.960828232244.2662G-100000 at dwarf.nome.net>, 
morgoth at nome.net 

Morgoth brought up the issue of obtaining walrus ivory.  Aside from legality or lack thereof,  the major deterrent for many SCA'ers is COST.  Also, many have 
philosphical objections to the use of animal ivory.

It is possible to simulate ivory using polymer clay (i.e., Fimo, ProMat, Sculpey).  The basic technique involves thin layers of art translucent clay and an ivory-colored clay so as to reproduce the grain of real ivory.  This is followed by baking your simulated ivory block maybe 5 mins (depends on size) to firm the block, then carving it to suit, then re-baking 20 minutes to harden fully.  The final stage is to use dark umber or brown paint to antique the cuts and grain.  The final result looks VERY like ivory.  I sink small fishing weights into the gaming pieces I make this way.  To the eye and to the heft, these items are indistinguishable from real ivory.    I learned the technique 
from an article by Tiry Hughes in an issue of Ornament magazine.  If anyone needs detailed information or discussion, please email me directly.

::GUNNORA::

Gunnora Hallakarva
Herskerinde


From: rayotte at badlands.NoDak.edu (Rayotte)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Ivory Art (joys of living in bush Alaska).
Date: 30 Aug 1996 06:25:09 GMT
Organization: North Dakota Higher Education Network

:     You're right, you can't get a raw tusk unless you are of the right
: tribe(s). However, you can legally own fossilized ivory, which is not
: much harder to carve than new ivory, and can be absolutely stunning. I
: have a pair of blue walrus teeth in pale blue, that I am not sure I
: want to carve at all. They are so pretty as is.
:     Allesaundra de Crosthwaite

        Yep, they sound beautiful, I woudl keep them as hey are, but then 
that's me a Rockhound from way back.

        One thing to keep in mind is that Ivory does not age in ways we 
can tell (other than a carbon dating or some such).  With no visable way 
of telling (other than residual tissue) the age of, say a walrus tusk, 
it's best not to buy them without some provanance (documentation) as to 
theor origin if someone is telling you they were collected before 1972, 
and are un worked.
        The excpetion is the fossil and recovered mastadon.  Yes, they 
are still finding mastadon ivory that's resh and ready to work as the day 
the animal died.  Really wonderful material, and easy to tell from modern 
elephant.
        Some fossil material is very beautiful, like the teeth the Lady 
mentioned above.  It makes beautiful items, yet has a beauty all of it's 
own I think.  It comes in a wide range of colors (golds and yellows, 
browns and blacks, reds(rust side) , greens  and blues, as well as a 
wonderful translucent milky color.

        Ivory is a beautiful material, it carves like nothing else, and 
has a toughness and luster that's hard to find.  For me, only jade comes 
close to the beauty, but the unique texture of Iovry is still unsurpassed 
even by the synthetics.  Mind you, it's most beautiful in it's natural 
place, on the critter.  I wish the example of countries such as Rhodisia 
could bring Iovory back to use, but until that's possible appriciate the 
beauty of it in muesums and zoos.

Horace


From: sevant at infinet.com (C. Baum)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Ivory Art (joys of living in bush Alaska).
Date: 1 Sep 1996 15:10:40 GMT

Morgoth (morgoth at nome.net) wrote:
: It is WALRUS IVORY, taken generally by quota by Eskimos (Inuit). So its
: legal atleast in Alaska/USA. Much of it is traditional carving, but I
: suspect some can do different things and in different styles..

: On 29 Aug 1996 lyon at infi.net wrote:

: > Date: 29 Aug 1996 15:40:20 GMT
: > From: lyon at infi.net at infi.net   (Lyon)
: > Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
: > Subject: Re: Ivory Art (joys of living in bush Alaska).
: > 
: > In <rubyshoe-2908960947470001 at 10.0.2.15>, rubyshoe at world.std.com (Bill Whitley) writes:
: > >In article <Pine.SUN.3.93.960828232244.2662G-100000 at dwarf.nome.net>,
: > >Morgoth <morgoth at nome.net> wrote:
: > >
: > >> I am sure I can get ahold of some local friends who can provide various
: > >> pieces of art in Ivory. Eskimos can carve walrus tusks.
: > >> Might be able to get them to carve almost inperiod pieces.

: > >Unless this is imitation Ivory, I think it may be problematic.
: > >
: > >It is my understanding that Ivory in all forms (including antiques) 
: > >is prohibited from sale by international treaty. Anyone out there 
: > >more familiar with the specifics of the law?

With all due respect, Toshi, you are suffering under a misapprehension.  
NOT ALL IVORY IS BANNED!!!!!

This misinformation is handed around regularly, like much modern urban 
legend.  If anyone is interested in ancient or fossil ivory, its use and 
legal procurement, I strongly recommend you start with a book published 
by the World Wildlife Fund, copyright 1992, called

"Identificaton Guide for Ivory and Ivory Substitutes"

which can be ordered directly from:

WWF Publications
P.O. Box 4866
Hampden Post Office 
Baltimore  MD  21211

Phone: 410.516.6951

: > >
: > >Not trying to rain on your parade, just trying to keep us out of trouble...
: > >
: > >toshi

Your concerns are appreciated Toshi.  I know of no one who wants trouble 
with the Feds.  But take heart all you carvers and scratchers out there.

Fossil ivory from Mammoth and Mastadon, as well as fossil Walrus ivory 
are all legal.  I have been using them for 10 years with excellent 
results.  Fossil Mammoth and Mastadon ivory is available from sources of 
mine starting at $50US PER POUND.  And a pound is a lot of ivory.

I have made several successful experiments in reshaping fossil ivory 
laminations, including pressing them into flat sheets that hold true (2 
years now).  Much period information is available on fossil ivory use 
(dating back to the Romans) in a recent over-sized coffee-table book 
called "Ivory".  I do not remember the author.

If you are looking for sources of legal fossil ivory, hippo tusks, and 
other similar primitive materials (like wart hog), contact me directly and I 
will share my sources with you.   You may email me at:

sevant at infinet.com

: > Is it all ivory or just Elephant ivory?  It's my understanding that 
the walrus is not an endangered species.

See above, get the guide, and write me.  The subject is too long and 
involved for this space.

I am currently working on a knife blade, a spear head, a feasting goblet, 
and a matched pair of bracers all made from select pieces of 
Mastadon/Mammoth ivory ranging from 25,000 to 45,000 years old!  There is 
no modern material to compare with the beauty and versatility of fossil 
ivory, for me.

In service to the SCA, I remain
Sevant


From: sevant at infinet.com (C. Baum)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Ivory Art (joys of living in bush Alaska).
Date: 3 Sep 1996 05:12:07 GMT

Rayotte (rayotte at badlands.NoDak.edu) wrote:
: ALL Ivory (even the stuff from Rhodisia that is taken as part of a very 
: successful game preservation method that's repopulated that country's 
: herds and has been giving elephants away to other countries trying to get 
: their herds back) is ban from entry to the US.

With all due respect, Rayotte, you are mistaken.  Please read Federal 
Resigter 54(110):24758-24761, 1989, and World Wildlife Fund and The 
Conservation Foundation in cooperation with TRAFFIC (USA) Washington, 
D.C.  1990, authors M.A. O'Connell, and M. Sutton, The Effects of Trade 
Moratoria on International Commerce in African Elephant Ivory: A 
Preliminary Report, and The mamoth cemeteries of north-east Siberia, an 
article in Polar Record 17(106):3-12, by N.K. Vereschagin.

Fossil mastadon, mammoth, and walrus ivories are leagally sold and traded 
throughout the United States.  Several major suppliers are to be found 
annually at the International Gem and Mineral Show in Arizona each 
January and February.  Raw materials and specimen pieces are available 
from dealers and private collectors, all entirelly legally.

The beauty and versatility of fossil ivories (what are well documented as 
pre-period and period to Europe and Asia) cannot be equalled by tauga 
nuts (sometimes called "vegetable ivory").  This material ranges in age 
from 15,000 to 50,000 years old on average.  The majority of the world's 
know supply comes from Siberia, but little of this supply is available to 
North America.  Most of our supplies are found in Alaska, largely by 
Inuit tribes, which trade their unused surplus for the few things they 
need or want from modern society.

I too have friends in Alaska, who have no trouble in locating the 
material in their area.  But my friends in Tucson have an even easier 
time finding it at the International Gem and Mineral shows each spring.
Pieces ranging from jewelry sized to full-size specimen tusks are available.

:       This includes Walrus ivory.  Why?  it's almost impossibel to tell 
: things apart after the work is done, no way to tell african from indian 
: elephanst to whlrus tusks.  You can tell mastadon apart as it has a 
: herringbone pattern in the cross section.

Once more, the visible difference between Walrus ivory and any other type 
of ivory is dramatic and unmistakable.  

Once you have actually seen fossil walrus ivory next to fossil mammoth 
and mastadon ivory (let alone elephant ivory) you will notice that they 
look nothing at all alike.  I know because I have both fossil walrus and 
fossil mammoth/mastadon ivory currently in my personal collection.  Also 
I take these raw materials to several events each year to share with 
artists who are interested in working with documentable period materials 
in their artwork and artifacts.  If you run into me at an event, ask if I 
have them with me.  If I do I will be happy to show you these excellent 
materials from raw to polished.

:       Are there exceptions?  Yes.

There are more exceptions as stated above, and more than those that I 
have mentioned.  Several artist supply houses located in every part of 
the US, feature raw and tumbled fossil ivories in all sizes for sale over 
the counter and by mail order on a regualr basis.

(friendly snip for bandwidth)

If you would like specific references of commercial dealers, private 
suppliers and licensed traders, contact me directly by email.

Lets all try to help end the perpetuation of misinformation.

Best Regards
Sevant


From: donata at ix.netcom.com(Dawn D Malmstrom)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: ivory
Date: 9 Sep 1996 20:38:44 GMT
Organization: Netcom

this was a post to SCA West that was requested to be cross-posted to the 
Rialto: 

 Good Gentles:
     
     I received, through circuitous means (since I don't read the Rialto) a 
     post from last week that may or may not have been part of a longer 
     thread concerning the legality of ivory.  My apologies if this has 
     been answered more fully there, but I feel that I am in a position 
     where I _must_ respond (see signatures below).
     
     The text of the Rialto post (re-typed, since I got only a hard copy):
     
     "Maybe I can help shed some light on this subject.  I am not directly 
     acquainted with the wording of the law, but I have been led to 
     understand that the sale of ivory is legal so long as it is natural- 
     found ivory, and can be proven as such (now there's the tricky part).  
     The Tlinget Native Americans carve ivory for jewelry and trinkets up 
     on the Alaskan coastline, and you will find it for sale in many of the 
     souvenir shops and the better stores.  Much of it is, however, 
     fossilized whale ivory.  Think about how many years that it takes to 
     fossilize a piece of ivory, and that is proof that the creature was 
     not killed for commercial purposes.  The way I found this out was by 
     asking an artisan from the area, who was making these wonderful 
     necklaces from fossilized ivory and antique trade beads.
     
                                        RoseAnna"
     
     I _am_ directly acquainted with the wording of the law, and anyone who 
     is interested in chapter and verse may post me privately for the 
     details.  In rough, however, here's how it is:
     
     --Native Americans (which for practical purposes means _mostly_ 
     Eskimos, although Indians--including the Tlingit--are included) may 
     take ivory-bearing species (e.g., walrus) for subsistence purposes.  
     They may also use the ivory from the tusks and teeth as a basis for 
     artwork, and may sell these same items freely.  They may use natural 
     ivory that they find on beaches in the same manner.  Items that enter 
     into commercial markets in this manner may then be freely bought and 
     sold by anyone.
     
     --Non-Native Americans may collect natural ivory from beaches (mostly 
     from dead walrus washed ahore), but must register it with the U.S. 
     Fish and Wildlife Service.  They may not use it for artistic products, 
     and may not sell it.
     
     --Anyone who finds fossilized ivory (up here, primarily mammoth--not 
     whale) on _private_ property may do with it pretty much as they will, 
     but collection of such fossils from Federal and state land is 
     prohibited.
     
     --Finally (and it does get confusing), any walrus ivory that was in 
     private ownership prior to the passage of the Marine Mammal Protection 
     Act can be carved, bought, sold, or traded as the owner desires.
     
     All of this, of course, relates to marine mammal ivory (and not to the 
     issue of elephant ivory).  In general, anyone who finds ivory art in 
     stores in Alaska (or in mail-order catalogs from similar places) can 
     safely purchase the same.
     
     RoseAnna, if you would, please cross-post this on the Rialto. Feel 
     free to contact me with any questions.
**********************************************************************
 Chuck Diters   Regional Archaeologist  U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
 Email: chuck_diters at mail.fws.gov
**********************************************************************
    

From: gunnora at bga.com (Gunnora Hallakarva)
To: ansteorra at eden.com
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 11:44:55 -0600
Subject: RE: Laurel's Prize Tourney 

>Where did you find the ivory substitite?  All these neat descritions have
>stated to make my hands itch.
>
>Saffiya

That one's real easy....

First, you need about 2 1-lb bricks each of Fimo, one in white, the other
must be what is called "art translucent" meaning the 00-Translucent, which
you have to get from an art supply like The Clay Factory of Escondido (Hobby
Lobby and <Michael's don't carry the stuff at all).

You also need a small (2 oz) package of a brown.

[Wait... what is Fimo, you ask?  It's PVC.  No, I am not kidding.  It's a
polymer clay, the same stuff the white plumbing pipes are made of.  Similar
stuff in other brands is called Sculpey, Cernit, or ProMat.  It comes
pre-colored. To harden you bake in the oven at 270 degrees F. ]

OK...  to begin working with the clay, you have to "condition" it.  The clay
when you get it is hard and crumbly.  You smoosh it around with your hands,
rolling it up, rolling out long snakes, rolling that into balls again... as
the clay warms up and is worked, it gets soft and pliable.  If the clay is
really hard, you may need to also use a little plasticizer to help it
soften... you but it commercially as "Mix Quick" and it's also a Fimo
product.  Start with a small amount of clay.  Once it's conditioned, fold
another chunk of unconditioned into it.  I work clay watching TV.

Once you have the white conditioned, add a small amount of brown in... like
healf of a pea-sized piece.   Work until the color is even.  You are trying
to achieve a cream color (i.e., ivory).

Condition the translucent.  Make sure no crumbles of brown are left laying
around that might contaminate it.

OK, the next step *can* technically be done using some improvised rolling
pin only, but the *real* way I do it is to take a pasta-rolling machine
(hand-cranked, stainless steel) that you will never use for food again...
it's about to become a dedicated Fimo tool.  Roll the cream-colored clay
through on progressively thinner settings until you have it on #1, and you
should have a sheet as wide as the machine and about 2-3 times as long.

You will makes sheets like this of alternating cream and translucent, and
stack them like a sandwich.  Notice the edge?  There's the graining so
typical of ivory!

Now, you take a long thin blade (for this I used an acrylic ruler with a
very thin edge) and slice 1" rows off the long edge of the stack.  Turn the
slice on edge.  Cut into 3 (possibly 4, if your stack is real long)
sections.  stack two side by side, smash them together gently,  and then run
them through the pasta machine on the thickest setting.  

Voila! You have a sheet of faux ivory.  

If you are going to carve the stuff, bake it in your pre-heated oven at 270
deg. F for about 10 minutes.  The clay will still be soft, but won't take
fingerprints.  You will need to keep the piece supported on either the
cooking pan, or I actually baked the ivory slabs right on top of the wooden
box pieces (all pre-assembly).

You can carve this stuff with an exacto knife, rather like cutting cream
cheese.  Once you have carved it to your heart's content, bake another 20
minutes at 270 deg F.

Now you have a tough decision.  You can glaze the "ivory" using Fimo gloss
varnish ($3 per 1 oz jar).  You can usewet sanding at progressively finer
grits and a buffing wheel to shine it up.  Or you can go to the grocery
store and buy some Future Floor Polish ($3 for a quart) and glaze the
"ivory" with that.  No, I am not kidding.  Check out the Usenet newsgroup
rec.crafts.polymer-clay if you don't believe me.

Last step is to antique the surface.  Pretty much any brown paint will work,
wipe on, wipe off with a wet sponge.  I personally like to use the stuff
Tandy sells for antiquing and highlighting leather (I have it around the
house anyway).  You apply it with a wool dauber, let it dry, wipe the excess
off with a wet sponge 10 minutes later.

Other bells and whistles...

Using the art translucent in combination with the appropriate color, you can
make faux turquoise or coral and "inlay" the faux ivory with it after you've
baked the ivory hard... then bake again to set the inlays.

You can make faux malachite, by layering a couple of shades of green, some
art translucent, a smidge of white, and be sure to use a little of the
pearlescent dark green in the mix.  Run the mix through the pasta machine a
few times to get the marbled effect.

You can make faux agate, same way, use browns and reds, plus a little white
and some art translucent.

How about faux butter amber?  Use white, yellow, a smidge of magenta, and
lots of art translucent.

You can make faux jade... take art translucent and add a small amount of
green. mix until color is completely blended.

Supposedly one can do faux opals, but I haven't had much success.  Take
ultrafine Aurora Borealis glitter (AB glitter) the glitter size should be
like sugar.  roll a small ball of fimo in the glitter until well coated.
Cover with as thin a piece of art translucent as possible.  After baking,
wet sand until there's only about a 1/32" of the translucent left.  Glaze.

ONE WARNING....

As anyone who's tried it knows, this polymer clay stuff is ADDICTIVE.  I not
only do faux gems, I do millefiori beads, too.  The joke is that Gunnora can
do ANYTHING using Fimo (and it's not too far from the truth!!)  Enjoy!

Wassail,

Gunnora Hallakarva
Herskerinde


From: "Mark Harris" <mark_harris at quickmail.sps.mot.com>
To:   (Gunnora Hallakarva), ansteorra at eden.com, Bryn Gwlad
Date: 22 Nov 1996 11:18:41 -0500
Subject: Medieval ivory

Stefan said:
> I also have a small book on medieval ivory carving that
>I could dig out if anyone wants the bibliographical info.

Then Gunnora asked:
>Please?

So, here is the citation for the book:

Medieval Ivory Carvings, Paul Williamson, Victoria & Albert Museum,
PittmanBooks, Ltd, London 1982 ISBN 0 11 290377 0

"This brief history of medieval ivory carvings covers a period
from the imperial commissions of the fifth century to the end of
the Gothic era.

Apart from their inherent beauty they are very important indicators
of stylistic change as little monumental sculpture exists from
between the years 500-1050."

Elephant ivory has been prized since prehistory and its neutral
colour has made it particularly suitable for embellishment with
jewels, and for uses ranging from book covers to combs."

It has 47 pages with color pictures on over half the pages.

Stefan li Rous
Barony of Bryn Gwlad
Ansteorra
markh at risc.sps.mot.com


From: Aatcha <junep at seaknet.alaska.edu>
To: markh at risc.sps.mot.com
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 23:06:09 -0900
Subject: Ask an Alaskan/ fossil ivory

   I read the page about the folks who are seeking fossil ivory.I'm an 
Alaskan Native knifemaker who has lots of leftovers from handle making.
Sizes range from 1-1/2 in.sq. to 1-1/2 x 5 in and up to a 1/4 inch 
thick.They are easily machined, stacked and epoxied then lathed.It's
Mammoth ivory. I charge only $25.00 a lb. and have a substantial pile for
turners,scrim,and others.
                          Charlie Pardue
                          e-mail: junep at seaknet.alaska.edu
                          Tele:(907) 766-3399


From: afn03234 at freenet3.afn.org (Ronald L. Charlotte)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Carving vegtable ivory
Date: 18 Jan 1997 11:33:32 GMT

cromabu at aol.com (CromAbu) wrote:
> I accuired some of these nuts myself to play around with & couldn't find
> any way to even score them. What's with this stuff any way?
>                              Cate

Just from handling items made of veg. ivory, and comparing it to modern 
and fossil Ivory, bone, and teeth as well as cutting on all but the 
modern Ivory, the stuff is as hard as dentine.  By way of example, in 
attempting to cut a cow molar into chunks to make a cloak clasp, I broke 
nearly a dozen jeweler's saw blades just cutting the crown off of the 
thing.

Think of it as a _very_ hard wood and stock up on saw blades and 
whetstone oil, because you are going to have to sharpen the carving 
tools _a lot_.
--
     al Thaalibi ---- An Crosaire, Trimaris
     Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL
     afn03234 at afn.org


From: RLKP88A at prodigy.com (Connie Collins)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Carving tagua nuts
Date: 17 Jan 1997 19:19:57 GMT

Maybe I should have in my original post explained how I've been carving 
tagua.    I agree with Cate, they are hard, I've snapped knife blades.    
 First I take off the husk, I use a Dremel because it's far faster than 
sanding by hand.   I have found that while tagua is hard, it's brittle, 
you can take large chips out of it easily by setting a blade into it and 
twisting.   I soak the peeled taguas in  mineral oil for a few days 
before I start carving, this will not soften them as much as soaking in 
water but it will make then slightly softer and far less brittle.  Water 
soaking tends to expand any cracks in the material and almost all tagua 
nuts have some voiding in the center.   After I have soaked my tagua in 
oil I rough out a shape using a heavy bladed knife, (usually a box knife, 
blades are cheap, easy to replace)  I use a smaller bladed knife for 
detailing, (usually an Exacto.)   When I have finished a carving I use 
sand paper in varying grits, down to 1500 to polish the piece.   I am 
getting good results this way,  I've done minitures, boxes, inlay and 
jewlery, but I wondered if anyone else had found other methods to work 
the stuff.
-
  CONNIE COLLINS  RLKP88A at prodigy.com
  Also known as Volcheka


From: ag60046004 at aol.com (Ag60046004)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Carving vegtable ivory
Date: 20 Jan 1997 14:35:16 GMT

Greetings to all good Gentles!

I've been carving tagua nut (vegetable ivory) only a short while, and have
not made many items from it yet.  Technique used, though not period,
involves a Dremel moto-tool and generous time.  The tagua will burn if you
work it too quickly (apply too much pressure) with a Dremel.

Tried knife-carving tagua first, and was astounded that anyone could carve
it, other than Volchecka, who posesses hands of great strength.

Various attachments I've used with the Dremel include grinding bits for
non-metal material, sanding drums, and buffing attachments.  No real way
to get around hand-sanding that I've found.  Found that white jeweler's
rouge works well on this material, the kind used for platinum,
nickel-silver, etc.  I was afraid the brown type, for wood, would stain
the tagua.  White works fine, although I know of others who've used
mineral oil for a final sheen.

My first carving was a 2 1/2" long bear fetish pendant.  A good first
project that lends itself to the shape of the nut.

Perhaps using motor tools is "cheating", but my hand hurts less after
holding the Dremel for 2 hours than from trying to hand-carve for 20
minutes.

Any other tips on carving tagua nut?

Anneliese Grossmund
Barony of Mag Mor, Kingdom of Calontir


From: rayah guthrey <rayah at nauticom.net>
Organization: Nauticom!
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Carving tagua nuts
Date: 26 Jan 97 04:55:01 GMT

Okay, folks.  Tagua nuts are the seeds (nuts) of a plam which grows in 
South America- and has been used for carvings, jewelry & buttons since the 
time of Queen Victoria for those who want europen reference dates.  It is 
a substitute nowdays for ivory.  It has a rough brown covering on the 
outside with a hard ivory white inner body-which generally has a "hole" 
in the middle.
To "soften" a tauga  nut for hand carving- you first "plug" the stem area 
of the nut.  (This is a dark end from where the stem grew.)  Take some 
melted wax, paraffin works, and layer it over the dark stem area and let 
harden.  This "plug" is to prevent the nut from absorbing the water into 
it's main body-it may look solid, but it isn't.
Now place the nut into HOT water-not boiling or the plug will dissolve.  
Let it soak for 4-8 hours-depending on the size of your nut- changing the 
water frequently to keep it from going cool.
Dry off your nut and try carving.
Source for tauga nuts:  The Woodturners Catalog, Craft Supplies USA,  1287 
E. 1120 S.,   Provo, UT   84606     Phone:  1-800-551-8876.  Cost for a 
bag of 10 nuts is $5.00 plus shipping.

Mistress Rayah Blackstar  


From: RLKP88A at prodigy.com (Connie Collins)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Carving tagua nuts
Date: 5 Feb 1997 03:57:48 GMT

> Ross Hansohn <ross at qualityservice.com> writes: 
> What is your source for tagua nuts? It sounds interesting.  
                                                     
I'm sorry, I seem to have missed that posting.  I order them bulk from a company in Arizona myself. 

I think they are interesting too.    You can find tagua nuts in some 
rock shops, a lot of woodworking shops and some lumber yards.   
-
  CONNIE COLLINS  RLKP88A at prodigy.com
  Also known as Volcheka


From: cromabu at aol.com (CromAbu)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Carving tagua nuts
Date: 10 Feb 1997 08:29:44 GMT

Tunge nuts or vegitable Ivory can also be found in jewelry supply stores.
                             Cate


Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 17:50:27 -0500
From: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Ivory

Ivory? (Little light clicks on. Helpful bug arouses. Grabs sources.)

Since most ivories, with the possible exception of hippo teeth,
tagua nuts, and fossil are not now allowable unworked by the average
person in the U.S. now (native american populations excepted), one
must turn to a few sources for any ivory or ivory
substitute - either fake polymer ivory or legal imports.

There is one fairly good source I know of for large polymer ivory:
...........................
GPS Agencies, Units 3 & 3A
Hambrook Business Centre, Cheesmans Lane, Hambrook, Chichester,
West Sussex, PO18 8XP  Telephone: +44 (0) 1243-574444
Fax: +44 (0) 1243-574313

Sole suppliers of Alternative Ivory (Colour Ref. 849/TM)
Also supplying it in Alternative Ebony (Black).

Claim is:
The only cast polyester with the characteristics of real ivory, at
a fraction of the cost of the real thing. It is ideal for those who
previously turned ivory or those who wish to experiment with alternative
methods. Can be used for turning boxes, vases, handles, figures, joining
rings and ferrules. Can age by soaking it in tea (tannic acid) or
alternatively dye it with Dylon dyes.

Rods stocked in 1.5 metre lengths 15mm to 75 mm diamether, larger
available to order. Limited stock in metre lengths: 89mm, 100mm, 125mm.

Rectangular Bar stocked in 1.5 metre lengths in sizes 25 X 35 mm,
33 X 43mm, 35 X 75mm, and 45 X 75mm.

Sheets are stocked in Grained Ivory and Bone in 3mm thickness. White
and Oyster Mother of Pearl and Dark Abalone in 3.5 mm Thickness. Sheet
size 56cm X 45 cm approx. Tortoiseshell Acetate sheet stocked in
0.5 thickness for inlay work. Sheet size 137cm X 66cm.

Horn and tortoiseshell also supplied in Rod, Bar, Sheet.
(from Woodturning Magazine, a British Publication).
...................
Suppliers to Knife Makers - principally for handle scales:

Masecraft Supply Co.
P.O.Box 423 BT, 254 Amity Street, Meriden, CT 06450
Phone (203) 238-3049
Carries: India Stag, Pearl, Horn, Bone, Amber Beads, Exotic Woods,
Micarta, Celluloids, Imitation Pearl, Alternative Ivory,
Re-con Stones and more. Catalog.
(from Knives Illustrated Magazine)
....................
K&G Finishing Supplies
P.O.Box 980 Lakeside, AZ 85929, (800) 972-1192 Catalog $3
Sells: Micata, Horn, Desert Ironwood, Stag, Ivory. (as above)
.....................
Americana Ltd.
219 Stucker Lane, Dept KI, Smithfield, KY 40068  (502)845-2222
Dymondwood, Fossil Ivory, Stag. Catalog $3. (as above)
.....................

I can't say how good Alternative Ivory is. I do know the real stuff
has a tendency to show rings spiralling in opposite directions which
is one way one can tell it from polymer (another is many castings show
bubbles not present in the real stuff). There are a lot of fake castings
these days sold as real by knowing or unknowing dealers. I have some
old stuff. The family was once in the Ivory import business in the
early part of the century. I had a great uncle who wrote a history of
the ivory and slave trade while in Zanzibar trading ivory in the early
part of the century.

Having carved real ivory, I can tell you it is very hard and just
about the time you figure the pressure will break it, it cuts. I used
engraving burins. It is about as hard as acrylic if you want to
practice. The wife likes to wear a particular green man mask I did
for her.

Now if anyone can tell _ME_ where I might find some cross sectional
views or back side views, or actual _mirror_ composition to medieval
European Ivory Mirrors I should very much appreciate it. I have
the Dress Accessories book. What I'm looking for is the side you
never see in the picture books that show the lovely carved side.
I'd like to know if there was a back cover to those things and if so
how joined and what got put in them to reflect and how set. I know
about Ancient, Celtic and Oriental to some degree.

Magnus


Date: Thu, 03 Dec 1998 02:04:51 -0600
From: Gunnora Hallakarva <gunnora at bga.com>
To: slaine at stlnet.com, sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Ivory Boxes

Slaine said:
>Actually, I do a lot of research.  I have my art history thesis
>on ivory jewelry boxes from 1250 to 1350.  It's about 20 pages long
>and had 50 pages of plates at one time.  I haven't tried to make
>one becaues I have not found a satisfactory substitute for ivory.

I've had very good luck creating "faux ivory" for reproductions of such
works as the Franks Casket, Ranveig's Casket, the Bamburg Casket, etc.
using FIMO (PVC craft clay). =20

I originally found the technique in:

Cuadra, Cynthia.  "Polymer Clay Simulations: Ivory and Turquoise" Ornament
17(3) 1994 pp. 84-89.  [Back issues available from:  Ornament Back Issues,
P.O. Box 2349, San Marcos, CA 92079-2349 or call (619) 599-0222]

Basically, you have to wholesale order FIMO brand "art translucent" and you
layer that in thin sheets with white FIMO into which has been mixed a
smidgen of ochre to give an ivory shade.  Ideally, one uses an old
handcranked pasta machine to create the very thin layers.  You stack the
sheets into a "layer cake" then cut strips about 1-1/2 times as thick as
you want the eventual slab of faux ivory to be.

These strips are then turned on their side to expose the grain, and laid
side by side and gently pressed together until the clay sticks well.  Then
you roll the sheet out using an acrylic rod or straight-sided glass or a
printer's brayer as a rolling pin until you get the desired thickness of
the faux ivory panel.

FIMO bakes in your home oven at 270 degrees F, normally around 20-30
minutes.  I bake the faux ivory about 10-15 minutes.  This leaves it soft
enough to carve easily - like carving leather, or ceramic at the "wet
leather" stage, yet it won't take fingerprints and will hold details.  When
the carving is done, you bake another 20 minutes to fully harden.

Since the PVC clay is still somewhat brittle even when hard (it never gets
as hard as PVC pipe, due to the greater amount of plasticizer used in
formulating the clay) I back each sheet with a thin sheet of wood, usually
a fine grained hardwood 1/8" to 1/4" thick.  I use epoxy to bond the clay
and the wood. 

The caskets I've been reproducing almost always have metal strips covering
the seams at the edges, and this works very well with this technique.

I've done caskets up to 14" long by 9" high, both square box caskets and
the peaked "house shaped" caskets.

This summer I got a bunch of elk antler, and I plan to do a casket using
antler plaques.  These are palmate antler pieces, and therefore fairly
large and flat.  I will be making a small casket - 6 to 8 inches maximum
length, due only to the fact that I couldn't afford a whole rack of uncut
antler, but had to get smaller "scrap" pieces already cut up.

I also understand that one can order mammoth ivory legally in this country.
 The pieces I have seen have been fairly large - they were platters
cross-sectioned off a tusk, and would be a perfect substance for
reproducing ivory objects.

I haven't gotten replies to my questions yet on this topic, but the Vikings
used whale bone for caskets as well.  I've written sources in Iceland and
Japan about the possibility of purchasing bone, and am trying to find out
if it is possible for me to get it legally imported into this country.  I
am still looking for an Alaskan Inuit contact, since they are the only
American peoples legally allowed to hunt whales.  So this is possibly
another source of material.

Two last sources that I've had good luck with for small to medium caskets:
cow or horse pelvic bones (the solid flat pieces of bone are VERY thin) and
jawbone (dense, thick, and fairly flat, but you get a maximum area of about
6" square, available at the corner of the jaw.

I'm excited to find the info about "Alternative Ivory as well (Thanks,
Magnus!)

Gunnora Hallakarva
Herskerinde


Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 02:44:49 -0500
From: Melanie Wilson <MelanieWilson at compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu" <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Ivory

There is one fairly good source I know of for large polymer ivory:
...........................
GPS Agencies, Units 3 & 3A
Hambrook Business Centre, Cheesmans Lane, Hambrook, Chichester,
West Sussex, PO18 8XP  Telephone: +44 (0) 1243-574444
Fax: +44 (0) 1243-574313

I used this stuff for the white pieces of my Courier Chess set, it turns
very well but is inclined to chip, carving was fairly easy too.
Unfortunatly GPS will only supply 50GBP worth per order, but Rod can be
bought from Craft Supplies here in the UK in single rods their web site is
http://www.craft-supplies.co.uk

Mel


Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 16:32:40 -0500
From: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Ivory Sources

The Boone Trading Company
PO Box BB, 562 Coyote Road, Brinnon, WA 98320 (360)-796-4330.
has antique and fossil Ivories.

Aatcha's
PO Box 1311, Haines, Alaska 99872
(907) 766-3208
junep at seaknet.alaska.edu
has large pieces of Mammoth Ivory and cores.

I heard about Boone from my friend Scott Snyder, the Chemist.
A Web search turned up these addresses. Scott apparently likes
what he has bought from Boone's.

Magnus


Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 16:12:21 -0500
From: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Ivory Source

>The number for the Boone Trading Company is 1-800-423-1945.  The sell
>ivory/horn/mammoth ivory/netsuke/scrimshaw/animal
>skulls/teeth/hides/vegetable ivory/eskimo artifacts/genuine Roman
>Millifori beads/semiprecious beads and a variety of related items.

>Scott

From my friend.

Magnus


Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 09:49:26 -0800
From: "Elizabeth Zagula" <ezagula at srv.net>
To: <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Fw: Ivory Boxes

----------
> From: William Lloyd <wlloyd at srv.net>
> To: 'ezagula at srv.net'
> Subject: FW: Ivory Boxes
> Date: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 9:43 AM

 I am not on This SCA arts list but my girl friend is and she has forwarded
me the Ivory line.   I hope you don't mind if I respond.

 My name is William Lloyd .  I am a professional antler bone and Ivory
carver.   If my professional knowledge can be of help in any way, please
e-mail me with questions.  I live in Idaho  U.S.A.  and have access to all
the moose deer and elk antler that you care to have.  I pay between $6.00
and $12.00 per lb. and would be happy to ship some to you at my cost plus
shipping charges.

 Many of the Ivory sources that I have seen listed in this line dry and cut
there own ivory.  If you call them they will cut it to any size you want.
Some of the mammoth Ivory that is available is quite large and can be made
into almost anything.  Mammoth ivory can also come in many different colors
from white to a very dark brown.  The whiter stuff is impossible to tell
from elephant ivory once it has been carved.

 To carve ivory I use a high speed rotary tool with carbide bits.  Ivory
carves easily  with these tools.  Just don't push to hard and use new sharp
bits.  Right now I am carving an ivory coin with portraits of our next
King and Queen here in Artemisia.  Once I am finished a mold will be made
of it and site token for coronation will be cast.

 Ivory bone and antler have many uses,  be creative,  our ancestors were.

 William Wilde


Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:14:53 EST
From: <DianaFiona at aol.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Ivory Source

magnusm at ncsu.edu writes:
<<
 Usually it is a tagua nut, often available through jewelry sources.
 Most are about the size of a medium or small chicken egg. They have
 a hole somewheres inside them. They look much like ivory when carved.
 I believe they come from Africa but may be mistaken about that.
 Usually cost 1-3 bucks apiece. Have a thin brown skin. Often see
 them at jewelry shows. Sometimes already converted to large beads.

 Magnus
  >>

I've got several of the sitting around, waiting for inspiration to strike.
;-) If you don't happen to have any gem show coming up in your area, seek out
a copy of the Lapidary Journal ( <A HREF="http://www.lapidaryjournal.com/">
Lapidary Journal</A> ), Rock and Gem, and maybe Jewelry Crafts or Ornament
magazines. There will likely be ads, especially in the first two, of places to
order these and just about anything else your heart desires for making
jewelry.......      ;-)

                Ldy Diana


Subject: Ivory Notes since you get the Digest
Date: Mon, 14 Dec 98 17:59:30 MST
From: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu>
To: stefan at texas.net

Since most ivories, with the possible exception of hippo teeth,
tagua nuts, and fossil are not now allowable unworked by the average person in the U.S. (native american populations excepted), one must turn to a few sources for any ivory or ivory substitute - either fake polymer ivory or legal imports.

   There is one fairly good source I know of for large polymer ivory:
                                            ...........................
GPS Agencies, Units 3 & 3A
Hambrook Business Centre, Cheesmans Lane, Hambrook, Chichester,
West Sussex, PO18 8XP  Telephone: +44 (0) 1243-574444
Fax: +44 (0) 1243-574313

   Sole suppliers of Alternative Ivory (Colour Ref. 849/TM) Also
supplying it in Alternative Ebony (Black).
   Claim is:
   The only cast polyester with the characteristics of real ivory, at a
fraction of the cost of the real thing. It is ideal for those who previously turned ivory or those who wish to experiment with alternative methods. Can be used for turning boxes, vases, handles, figures, joining rings and ferrules. 
   Can age by soaking it in tea (tannic acid) or alternatively
dye it with Dylon dyes.
   Rods stocked in 1.5 metre lengths 15mm to 75 mm diamether, larger
available to order.
Limited stock in metre lengths: 89mm, 100mm, 125mm.
   Rectangular Bar stocked in 1.5 metre lengths in sizes 25 X 35 mm, 33
X 43mm, 35 X 75mm, and 45 X 75mm.
   Sheets are stocked in Grained Ivory and Bone in 3mm thickness. White
and Oyster Mother of Pearl and Dark Abalone in 3.5 mm Thickness. 
Sheet size 56cm X 45 cm approx. 
   Tortoise shell Acetate sheet stocked in 0.5 thickness for inlay
work. Sheet size 137cm X 66cm.
   Horn and tortoise shell also supplied in Rod, Bar, Sheet.
(from Woodturning Magazine, a British Publication).
                                                ...................
Suppliers to Knife Makers - principally for handle scales:

Masecraft Supply Co.
P.O.Box 423 BT, 254 Amity Street, Meriden, CT 06450  Phone (203) 238-3049
Carries: India Stag, Pearl, Horn, Bone, Amber Beads, Exotic Woods, Micarta, Celluloids, Imitation Pearl, Alternative Ivory, Re-con Stones and more. Catalog.
(from Knives Illustrated Magazine)
                                               ....................
K&G Finishing Supplies
P.O.Box 980 Lakeside, AZ 85929, (800) 972-1192 Catalog $3
Sells: Micata, Horn, Desert Ironwood, Stag, Ivory. (as above)
                                               .....................
Americana Ltd.
219 Stucker Lane, Dept KI, Smithfield, KY 40068  (502)845-2222
Dymondwood, Fossil Ivory, Stag. Catalog $3. (as above)
.....................
The Boone Trading Company (PO Box BB, 562 Coyote Road, Brinnon, WA 98320) has
a great catalog that includes all types of beads, gemstones, carvings,
and....ivory blanks. They have ready-made pieces or all types. 
Give them a call. Their phone number is (360)-796-4330.

The number for the Boone Trading Company is 1-800-423-1945.  They sell
ivory/horn/mammoth ivory/netsuke/scrimshaw/animal
skulls/teeth/hides/vegetable ivory/eskimo artifacts/genuine Roman Millifori
beads/semiprecious beads and a variety of related items. - Scott
                                     -----------------------------
................
Penniman, T. K.,   Pictures of Ivory and other Animal Teeth, Bone and, Antler; With a brief commentary on their use in identification.  University of Oxford:
Pitt Rivers Museum, Occasional Paper on Technology   N° 5, [1952] 1984.  SOFTBOUND. $17.95
Definitive technical explanations useful in understanding the taxonomy
and identification of types of ivory,  helpfully illustrated with black-and-white photographs.
Kendall Whaling Museum, 27 Everett St.. Sharon, Mass. 02067
http://www.kwm.org/museumshop/books/authors.htm
..........................


Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 13:37:32 -0500
From: Cindy Baker <cebaker at ilstu.edu>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Scrimshaw

snip...
one of the entries was on Scrimshaw  (carving and then filling).   The
>pieces in the display were carved bone that was filled with a black india
>ink, as was done on the Whaling ships. snip again...
>While reading the documentation provided, he was unable to prove this art
>form was done before late 17th cent.
snip...

Carving is really not my specialty, but I have seen some similar work in
period. The item that comes to mind is a norse needle case of bone with
"incised" decorations that were painted. Can't remember the title of the
book, but the subject matter was sewing equipment. (I was looking for
information on needles at the time & didn't pay close attention.) The lines
may not have been as fine as those associated with scrimshaw. I'll have to
make a trip to the library and see if I can find more details for you.

Ellen


Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 01:47:52 -0500
From: Roberta R Comstock <froggestow at juno.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Scrimshaw

 The nearest thing I've seen to scrimshaw in period is simple geometric patterns such as circles with dots in them, herringbone patterns and cross hatched lines on bone and antler (or sometimes ivory) items.  Some look as if they could have been stamped or burned in rather than incised or scratched.  I don't know if the dark fill is intentional or just coincidental accumulation of dirt accrued during the ageing process and long use.

There have been some objects found that are catalogued as 'motif pieces'. These are often pieces of bone with samplers of assorted patterns carved or incised on them, such as might be made by an artisan for their own personal reference.   Some have a variety of styles and patterns on the same piece.  The carving ranges from simple incised lines, very much like scrimshaw, to relief carving with a fair amount of depth and shaping.

Compare these with 'finished' pieces in wood, stone, pottery and metal, as well as bone, antler and ivory.

For examples, see:_
From Viking to Crusader: The Scandinavians and Europe 800-1200_, Edited by Else Roesdahl and Davind M. Wilson.  New York: Rizzoli.  1992.ISBN 0-8478-1625-7_

Anglo-Saxon Art: from the Seventh Century to the Norman Conquest_ by David M. Wilson.   Woodstock, NY:  The Overlook Press.  1984.  ISBN0-87951-976-2

_The Work of Angels: Masterpieces of Celtic Metalwork, 6th-9th CenturiesAD_, edited by Susan Youngs.  Austin, TX:  Univ. of Austin Press 1990 (in co-operation with British Museum Publications 1989) ISBN 0-292-79058-9

_Aspects of Anglo-Saxon Archaeology: Sutton Hoo and Other Discoveries_ byRupert Bruce-Mitford.  New York: Harper's magazine Press.  1974.  SBN06-120480-3

_Viking Art_ by David M. Wilson and Ole Klindt-Jensen.  London: George Allen and Unwin.   1966, 1980.  ISBN 0-04-709018-9

_Celtic Art: from its beginnings to the Book of Kells_ by Ruth and Vincent Megaw.  New York:  Thames & Hudson.  1989.  ISBN 0-500-27585-8

_A Medieval Treasury: an Exhibition of medieval Art from the Third to the Sixteenth Century_.  Robert G. Calkins.  Ithaca, NY: Andrew Dickson White Museum of Art, Cornell Univ.  1968.  LCCCN 68-65401

_The Medieval Treasury: the art of the Middle Ages in the Victoria andAlbert Museum_  Edited by Paul Williamson.  London:  Victoria and AlbertMuseum.1986.  ISBN 0948107 38 3

_Songs of Glory: Medieval Art from 900 to 1500_   catalog of exhibition organized by David Mickenberg.  Oklahoma City, OK: Oklahoma Museum of Art.  1985.  ISBN 0-911919-01-5

_The Anglo-Saxons_  edited by James Campbell.  London & New York: Penguin Books.  1991  ISBN 0-14-014395-5_The Viking Dig: The excavations at York_  by Richard Hall.  London:  The Bodley Head.   1984.  ISBN 0-370-30821-2

_The Vikings_  by James Graham-Campbell and Dafydd Kidd.  London: British Museum Publications, Ltd.  1980.  ISBN 0-7141-1353-0

_The Making of England: Anglo-Saxon Art and Culture AD 600-900_  Edited by Leslie Webster and Janet Backhouse.  Toronto:  Univ. of Toronto Press.  1991.  ISBN  0-8020-7721-8

(These are in no particular order except the one in which I pulled them from the bookshelf.  It's a start.   I also suggest searching for other publications by any of these authors and editors.) 

Mistress Hertha Blair of Froggestow, OL, OP, etc....
Canton of Aston Tor, Barony of Forgotten Sea, Kingdom of Calontir


Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 11:58:05 -0400
From: Barbara Trow <trow at hopper.unh.edu>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Scrimshaw 

I just bought a used book - The World's Great Treasures, Gianni Guadalupe, editor, Published by Stewart, Tabori & Chang, Printed in Italy- ISBN1-55670-832-7.10" x 14" pages, all full color pictures.

On page 235 is captioned: "This saltcellar, made of mother-of-pearl and cast, chased and gilded silver, stands 16 centimeters high.  The shell, engraved with colorful Chinese scenes from Canton, was mounted by the Parisian goldsmith Francois Crevecueur, who was active in the second half of the sixteenth century.  The piece was probably part of the dowry of Christine of Lorraine".

In the text is:  "Two saltcellars that arrived in Florence in the way descibed above were created by Francois Crevecueur, court goldsmith of Henri II, using Canton shells engraved and set in silver mounts.  Extremely ornate objects of this type, even for everyday use, were not uncommon at the Medici court." The saltceller looks like a nautalis or else a moon shell type gastropod. it has a very definite Chinese motif with what looks like two women in what looks like a porch or a gazebo on the back half of the shell side; and three men, one reaching up into a tree branch, one under an umbrella and the other farther to the right seated holding a staff over his right shoulder. There is a scalloped band (with an internal cross-hatched design) separating the men from the abstract and floral designs on the very front of the shell.  Farther up above the men to the right of the band is what could be a simple depiction of the great wall or some other type of fortification.  The bands and the fortification lines are colored in red, the floral design has a solid blue background and the design looks dyed green and a shade of yellow that makes me think it is the natural shell . the tree brach is green and the umbrella is red on top and a charcoal color underneath. the women are dressed in blue with red decorations in their hair. In some of the areas it looks like the color was only partially wiped off leaving the incised lines as darkly colored and the rest of the area with a hint of color. (The color could have been worn off from use also).  Any part of the shell that has no other design is diapered with diamond shapes formed by double lines with a horizontal goute of green in each.

I do have a scanner that will handle the picture.  Contact me privately if you need a copy.

Aine


Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 10:48:59 -0600
From: Sheron Buchele/Curtis Rowland <foxryde at verinet.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Scrimshaw At 01:47 AM 5/5/99 -0500, 

Mistress Hertha wrote:
>The nearest thing I've seen to scrimshaw in period is simple geometric
>patterns such as circles with dots in them, herringbone patterns and
>cross hatched lines on bone and antler (or sometimes ivory) items.  Some
>look as if they could have been stamped or burned in rather than incised
>or scratched.  I don't know if the dark fill is intentional or just
>coincidental accumulation of dirt accrued during the ageing process and
>long use.

I've run across references to motif pieces of the Celtic and Teutonic tribes quite a bit in my metalsmithing researching.  What I can document is two processes, I'll have to check for My documentaion and references later though.  The two processes were the carry-over of niello from silverwork and the act of using woad and other dyes to bring out chiaroscuro and higher contrasts in the motif pieces.

I carry such a motif bone in a pouch with my woad, though I have come to call it an "awen" bone for it carries my creative energy through the designs and engravings.  I often woad myself and others before battle, and over the years, the woad has worked its way into the engravings creating this skrimshaw effect.

>There have been some objects found that are catalogued as 'motif pieces'.
> These are often pieces of bone with samplers of assorted patterns carved
>or incised on them, such as might be made by an artisan for their own
>personal reference.   Some have a variety of styles and patterns on the
>same piece.  The carving ranges from simple incised lines, very much like
>scrimshaw, to relief carving with a fair amount of depth and shaping.
Motif pieces that I have found and references to them in research indicatea belief that bone in particular was used to practice chasing, carving and engraving becuase the ancients felt bone was similar in hardness to metals. Another interesting belief by the ancient artists that I use today personally and in my persona, is that once a motif bone, or "awen" bone was full, it was shattered to keep others from stealing designs or the "awen" of the artist.

Deotrich


Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 11:12:44 -0700
From: Mary Haselbauer <slaine at stlnet.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Scrimshaw 

In the book Treasures of Ireland: Irish Art 3000 B.C. to 1500 A.D. edited by Michael Ryan (Royal Irish Academy, Dublin, 1983ISBN 0 901714 28 3) on page 158 (catalog number 74a-c) are pictured Bone and Stone Trial Pieces.  "These trial pieces were found during archaeological excavation in Dublin City."  The context for the three pieces is 11 to 13th centuries.  There are different forms of carving on each piece.  Some are deeply carved and some are "lightly sketched. "This isn't scrimshaw in the traditional sense. (sailors with nothing better to do.) These are practice pieces and the motifs are compared to contemporary metalwork.

Slaine


Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 15:30:58 +0200
From: Anna Troy <Anna.Troy at bibks.uu.se>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Scrimshaw

I've been following this and I just have to add my to bits :-). First of
all what is meant here by scrimshaw? I'm fairly certain that the pricking
technique isn't period. The scratching would be closer. As for bone and horn
work here in Scandinavia the Sami (calling them Lapps is kind of a
derogetory term though opinions on that differ) do alot of scrimshaw-like
carvings with patterns that are at least 1000 years old. They make thin
lines and small geometrical figures (more figurative stuff further up
North) and these are then rubbed with pigment mixed with spit to make a
black or brown coloring. Knives with this kind of art can be bought for
about $500 and up.

Anna de Byxe


Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 15:42:05 -0400
From: Debra Kozak <berkana at en.com>
To: Scribes <scribes at castle.org>
Cc: SCA-ARTS List <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Ivory

If you belong to both the above addressed lists, I am sorry for the
duplication.  Here is the information I promised in my earlier post on
painting on ivory and ivory substitutes.

The catalog of which I wrote belongs to Miniature Painting, Etc.  The
address is 13805 Nice Lane, Odessa, FL  33556.  Phone number is
813/920-4147.  Fax is 813/926-9276.  E-mail is    miniart at ij.net
The woman who owns the business is Jo Webber.  She is wonderful and will
answer any questions with courtesy and to the best of her ability.

As to the materials she offers, she sells ivory piano keys, ivorine,
polymin, lumitex, new base, and canvasboard.  The characteristics of
each are as follows:

Ivorine does not contain any ivory - it is entirely man-made.  It has
been used for painting miniatures for about 100 years and has proved to
be a reliable surface.  It is very important that it be cared for
correctly.  It does have a tendency to bow and warp, especially if
subjected to extreme heat.  It should not be left in a hot care for an
extended period of time.  It should not be hung in direct sunlight.  It
should be stored in a climate controlled environment under a heavy
weight such as a heavy book, particularly full sheets.  Ivorine can be
mounted on acid-free foam core.  Be sure to use 3-M Photo-Mount or 3M
Vac-U-Mount spray adhesive.  These have been age- tested on ivorine
without any negative results.  Other adhesives may chemically interact
with the ivorine with unpleasant results (like wadding up into a little
ball).

Polymin is translucent, resistant to chemicals, and will not warp.  It
has been used for archival applications for about 40 years without
degradation.  The recommended painting surface is the less shiny side -
although either side can be used.  It is thinner and more translucent
than the ivorine - which makes it easier to trace your drawing onto it.
(Personal note:  I use this material and highly recommend it.)

Lumitex is a thin layer of polymer plastic, laminated onto an acid-free
card.  it will not warp or become brittle and is not affected by ultra
violet rays.  The painting surface is the glossy side.

New Base is new on the scene as a base for painting miniatures.  It is
similar to ivorine in thickness, translucency and surface.  It is
resistant to U/V and is dimensionally stable (that means it won't warp).

Canvasboard is made with the best quality, fine weave cotton canvas
applied to an acid-free board using an acid-free non-degradable
adhesive.

Prices (1999) for the materials are as follows:

Ivory piano key      7/8" x 2"                    2.25
Jumbo piano key    7/8" x 3-7/8"             4.50

Ivorine                   5.7" x 7.9"                  5.60
Polymin                  6" x 8"                        5.25
(available in ivory or white color)
Lumitex                  6" x 8"                        7.00
New Base              6" x 8"                        3.00
Canvasboard          6" x 8"                        6.00

The ivory substitutes look like ivory.  They require no special tools.
They are very easy to work on.   The common characteristics of them all
are that you should avoid fingermarks on the surface since it makes it
more difficult for the paint to adhere on the "greasy"
spots...especially waterbased paints.  The surfaces (with the exception
of the canvas board) are non-absorbent so painting techniques may have to
be adjusted.  (This is true with ivory, also, but the books I
recommended explain how to handle that type of surface.)  All surfaces
are ready to use for ANY media.

Lady Berkana von Metz


Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 09:46:15 -0500
From: Mary Haselbauer <slaine at stlnet.com>
To: a & s <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Re: Bamburg casket

I tried using polymer clay to imitate ivory. The layering Gunnora
describes was cool but I wasn't able to get the level of detail I wanted
and it looked like clay rather than carving. Polymer clay might work
better for something like the Franks Casket.

My bibilography on ivory stuff should be in the Florilegium too.
Cheers,
Slaine


Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 07:50:34 -0400
From: Ron Charlotte <ronch2 at bellsouth.net>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: seal teeth

>Question:  Does anyone know where I might find seal teeth?  Even bear teeth 
>would be OK.  Thanks.

You might try this source: 
The Ivory House
http://www.alaska.net/~ivory/

Among other things, they supply  uncarved old walrus, mastadon, and mammoth
ivory in
bulk for artists.  If they don't have what you need, they may be able to
point you to someone who does.

	al Thaalibi -- An Crosaire, Trimaris
      	Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL
	afn03234 at afn.org OR ronch2 at bellsouth.net


Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 10:25:49 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Pixel, Queen of Cats" <pixel at hundred-acre-wood.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: seal teeth

On Mon, 9 Oct 2000 SNSpies at aol.com wrote:
> Question:  Does anyone know where I might find seal teeth?  Even bear teeth 
> would be OK.  Thanks.
> 
> Ingvild

Try www.clawantlerhide.com. They've got bear, and a number of other kinds,
and might be able to help you with seal teeth.

Or www.hideandfur.com. Same as above, different retailer.

Margaret FitzWilliam


Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 01:09:47 EDT
From: <HRAFNASDOT at aol.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: seal teeth

I don't know about seal teeth, but you can find very good (hard to tell even 
in your hand style) synthetic bear claws and teeth in catalogues specializing 
historical reenactment - suppliers like James Townsend and Dixie Gun Works.  
They also have very good supplies for lighting (lamps, candle supplies), 
metal works (wrought iron cooking utensils, pots, pans, cauldrons) and 
camping gear (tents! Did you catch the ones in "Patriot"?).  These guys 
aren't too far off for late period stuff and are quality minded.  They also 
might be able to help with the feathers, furs and horns supplies.  
Leatherworks also carries some similar items occasionally.  All have 
websites, will ship to you, are located in the U.S., and will send you 
catalogues.

Asa Hrafnasdottir
Loch Ruadh


From: Glen Nelson <glenks1swede at msn.com>
Date: April 5, 2004 1:43:08 AM CDT
To: stefan at florilegium.org
Subject: Corian in place of Ivory

I have carved grips from 1/2" corian counter top material and I am very satisfied.  It can be successfully sanded with increasingly finer grit paper finally with 600 wet paper.  It looks just like ivory though feels cool to the touch.  The best color to choose is called "ivory".  Often countertop specialists will give you pieces. Solid white does not look too bad either.  The grips I made were to duplicate those often used by the gunfighters of late 19th century.
I used a grinding wheel then a dremel with sanding wheel.  Then good old fashion aluminum oxide papers from 100 grit. 150 grit, 220 grit, 320wet grit, 400wet grit and finally 600 wet grit. The nice thing about corian is that you are starting with extremely flat surfaces and it can be cut to rectangular shape with a table saw with a good carbide blade.
Be careful with fresh sawn edges as they will cut your hands!
Because it can be shaped with power tools quite well I assume you could use it for a number of other applications.  My next project will be to glue 1/2" thicknesses together and use it for sculpturing like soapstone carving.  Counter top specialists glue it together and it is very hard if not impossible to see the joins especially with the solid colors.  Good luck and enjoy.

<the end>
Edited by Mark S. Harris	ivory-msg	Page 27 of 32