horn-msg - 2/2/15

Working with horn. drinking horns.

NOTE: See also the files: Horn-Spoons-art, Horn-Working-art, Working-Horn-art, ivory-msg, ivory-bib, N-drink-ves-msg, glues-msg, bone-msg, p-bottles-msg, fur-msg, merch-a-parts-msg.

************************************************************************
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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: mikeh at moci.uucp (Mike Huber)
Subject: Re: Fake Ivory
Organization: ICOM, Inc.
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1993 17:34:54 GMT

Stephen.Whitis at f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Stephen Whitis) writes:
: Azelin wrote...
: 
: >3) What does a relative humidity of 100% MEAN?
: >My answer:  My understanding is that 100% humidity means that the air     
: >   is saturated with as much water as it will take, at it's current       
: >   temperature and pressure.  This means that, when you put a bowl        
: >   of acid-soaked potatoes out to dry, so you can make fake ivory,        
: >   the potatoes won't dry.  If the temperature goes down, the water       
: >   falls out.                                                             
: 
: Fake ivory?  Is this as interesting as it sounds?  If so, does
: anyone have any details on how to go about it, what can be done,
: etc...

I don't know about acid-soaked potatoes, but I do use Tagua Nut as
an ivory substitute.  I buy it at The Woodworker's Store.

Anaximander Domebuilder of Xidon


From: ciaran at aldhfn.akron.oh.us (Skip Watson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Fake Ivory
Date: 29 Jun 93 23:49:32 EST
Organization: Auldhaefen Associates

In article <741272657.F00003 at ocitor.fidonet> Stephen.Whitis at f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Stephen Whitis) writes:

> Fake ivory?  Is this as interesting as it sounds?  If so, does
> anyone have any details on how to go about it, what can be done,
> etc...
> 
> Stephen of the Grove
> Steppes, Ansteorra    FIDONET 1:124/4229
> ocitor!Stephen.Whitis at rwsys.lonestar.org

	I don't know about how to make fake ivory,but there is a "vegetable"
ivory available - the Taqua nut. Once cut, carved, sanded and polished it
looks exactly like ivory and is rather hard.

Ciaran the blunt / Skip Watson
---
Internet: ciaran at aldhfn.akron.oh.us    UUCP: ciaran at aldhfn.UUCP
Auldhaefen Associates                  Email: auldhaefen at aldhfn.akron.oh.us


From: BDP at HOLONET.NET
Subject: Re: Fake Ivory
Organization: HoloNet National Internet Access System: 510-704-1058/modem
Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1993 19:39:13 GMT

Ciaran the blunt (Ciaran at aldhfn.akron.oh.us) writes ---> 


 Ci> I don't know about how to make fake ivory,but there is a "vegetable"
 Ci> ivory available - the Taqua nut. Once cut, carved, sanded and polished
 Ci> it looks exactly like ivory and is rather hard.

    How cheap is the stuff?

    I've got the latest American Science & Surplus catalog, and they sell
    Taqua for $2 a nut.  I've no idea how that matches the going rate.

 BDP/Malachi
-- 
The Reverend Benjamin D. Pollack,			     [bdp at holonet.net]
	Minister & Archbishop, The First Church of Cyberspace
aka "Morgan Bluejeans",					     [mbj at delphi.com]
	Chaplain & Business Manager, Dedaparamaxxaginos Productions


From: jab2 at stl.stc.co.uk (Jennifer Ann Bray)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pressed horn
Date: 8 Jul 93 11:44:04
Organization: STC Technology Ltd., London Road, Harlow, UK.

I met a man in Lancashire a few years back who works horn, he had the
techniques from his father who got then from his...
To soften the horn and make it workable it is put close to a fire. The
man I met uses an electric fire, but said his grandfather just sat
next to a yorkshire range and used the heat from the cooking fire. 
The essence of the softening process is to heat SLOWLY
begin with the horn at a distance from the fire where it is
comfortable to hold your hands. leave it there for long enough for it
to heat right through, then move it a bit closer and leave it to heat
right through, keep going until the whole piece is soft enough to
wok with.
He was very scathing of people who heat horn too fast, he said that
the outer layers became softened, and it was possible to work the horn
to make spoons etc. but if the inner layers were not thorougly heated
they would constantly try to resume their former shape, this would
make the article weak as the different layers were pulling against one
another. Eventually this makes the article warp or causes its layers
to delaminate.
I don't know how long each stage of the heating process took, but he
said he usually took most of the day to heat things, occasionally
moving the hoorn closer to the fire whilst he went about other jobs.

It sounds as though you are getting the horn too hot too fast
How about putting it between the greased plates and then heating very
slowly, by a fire if you want to be period otherwise a low oven might
work.

What are you making? how thick is the horn you are working?

hope that's some help
Jennifer


From: WISH at uriacc.uri.EDU (Peter G. Rose)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: potato/ivory
Date: 8 Jul 1993 14:06:48 -0400
Organization: The Internet

Well, I WAS going to wait until I got this to work, before posting, but:

According to _1001__Formulaes_, that I got via Lindsay Technical books,
to whose catalog everyone should subscribe, you can make artificial ivory
by:
   Masticate peeled potatoes in sulferic acid for 36 hours,
   dry between two pieces of blotting paper, and
   subject to great pressure.

I reiterate that I haven't been able to make this work, because
I can't figure out how to apply great pressure without either
  A) squirting the resulting paste out from between boards, or
  B) preventing it from EVER drying...

As soon as I find a better source of acid, I'm going to try drying
the mass completely BEFORE applying pressure, and see if that works.
(the last batch of acid I got from a car battery that cracked open)

I'll post again if I ever get it to work.... Do Y'all want the formula
for artificial amber, too?

                  --Azelin


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: cav at bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin)
Subject: Re: Drinking Horns
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.

In article <1993Oct3.164848.1529 at camins.camosun.bc.ca>, ua923 at freenet.Victoria.BC.CA (Mark Shier) writes:
|> 
|> I've just purchased an unpolished horn. I know about bleaching 
|> the insides to clean it out, but I'm not sure how to polish 
|> the outside or safely seal the insides. I have polishing buffs -
|> tripoli, rouge, etc. Do these work on horn without filling the

The polishing buffs should work (I think I've done this at some time
in the dim and distant past).  If you carefully go from course to
finer grits, you will bring it up to a mirror finish without any
scratches or pores to hold the compound (I seem to remember doing this
in a rush, and having some black residue remain in the fine scratches).

|> pores with compounds ? I don't want to discolour it. For the 
|> insides, I want to use something a little more permenant than
|> wax. I've heard there are some good epoxies, but I want something 

If you're only using it for cold drinks, bees wax lasts for quite some
time.  Melt the wax in a double boiler, and at the same time heat the
horn to the same temp in the oven.  Pour in some molten wax, slosh it
around, and (with the oven switched OFF) stand the horn upended in the
oven with something underneath to catch the drippings.  This will
ensure a thin coating of wax over the inside of the horn.

|> food safe. Any suggestions for the outside after polishing?
|> Verathane? 
|> 		Any help would be appreciated.
|> 				Mark der Gaukler.

Cheers, Balderik


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: cav at bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin)
Subject: Re: Drinking Horns
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 93 16:17:33 GMT

Ok, maybe I shouldn't recommend putting a wax coated
horn in the oven (even if that's how I'd do it).
Gotta be careful about putting flammable stuff in
hot places.  With the horn heated up above the temp.
of the melted wax, you can slosh the wax around without
it hardening instantly, and you should be able to dump
out the excess wax.  If putting the horn in the oven
makes you nervous, you can heat it by dipping it in
boiling water, or with a blow-dryer.  It's just to keep
the wax from hardening as soon as you pour it in.
Cheers, Balderik


From: cav at bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: drinking horns
Date: 1 Dec 1993 20:05:49 GMT
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.

In article <KGORMAN.100.2CFCD3AF at ARTSPAS.watstar.uwaterloo.ca>, KGORMAN at ARTSPAS.watstar.uwaterloo.ca writes:
|> 
|> This should go along with the question of how to prepare a drinking horn.
|> 
|> My lord recieved as a gift a mug made out of horn.  Unfortunately the taste 
|> it gives liquid, or perhaps it's smell, is too over-poweringly unpleasant to 
|> use it.
|> 
|> Is there anything that could be done to fix this?  As far as I can tell it 
|> hasn't been treated with bees wax, how could I tell for sure?
|> 
|> Eyrny

What does it smell/taste like? (or rather, what is the unpleasant smell/
taste that it imparts?).

If it were treated with bees wax, it should smell/taste faintly of honey
(I suppose this will vary somewhat depending on the amount of honey in
the wax).  The layer of wax, if thin enough, might not be readily
visible, but should be obvious if you scape the inside with a dull
implement. (you'll get little shavings of wax)

From the sound of it, it is untreated.  What I would do is wash it well,
perhaps using a strong detergent (if you use something *really* strong like
tri-sodium phosphate,  you might want to limit how long you soak the 
horn).  Then fill and/or soak the horn with a weak bleach solution
(yes, javex is just fine).  A few drops to a hornfull, or a capful to
a bucket should do it.  You can leave this overnight, or for a day or
two, however long it takes to kill the smell.  The solution should not
be strong enough to damage the horn in the short term, but you might want
to keep an eye on it for softening.

Rinse and allow it to dry thoroughly.  (as stated in an earlier post:)
Melt some wax in a double boiler (careful as wax is flammable).  Warm
the horn in the oven (150 deg or so - this is just to ensure that the
wax stays liquid long enough for you to coat the inside of the horn).
Pour in some of the molten wax, and slosh it around to coat the inside
with a thin layer, then pour out the excess.

The waxing process can be repeated at later times as you feel it is needed.

The bees wax can impart a faint honey-like flavour to beverages, but that's
not so bad.

Cheers, Balderik


From: jab2 at stl.stc.co.uk (Jennifer Ann Bray)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Parctical handling of horn question
Date: 30 Nov 93 11:00:44
Organization: STC Technology Ltd., London Road, Harlow, UK.

If You've got out the horn cores, (which I presume you have since you
said you'd emptied your horns) the next stage is cleaning.
If you boil your horns they will become soft and may de-laminate. Horn
is made out of lots of thin layers, which can be split apart for
making lanterns etc. but for a drinking horn you don't want this
splitting to happen, so don't boil your horn.

The best method of sterilising I have found is rinse thouroughly with
hot water and scrub out with a bottle brush. then soak in wine makers
sterilising solution. Alternatively the sort of sterilising solution
used for babys bottles works as well and may be easier to get.
O.K. sterilising solutions aren't exactly authentic viking, but the
bugs you might catch from a mucky daed cows head are, given the choice
I always go for safe sterility rather than authentic poisened beer!

If your horn is as it came from the cow, then I would recommend
trimming the top. This gives a thicker edge less prone to splitting.
Just fill the horn with water, hold it as you would for drinking and
mark where the water line is, then saw off the top level with that
line so that any spare curves and bumps are removed.

Horn is not very prone to decay unless you go to extremes like burying
in soft peat for years. As proof of this there is at least one
surviving dark age horn shown in Arthur Macgregors book "bone antler
ivory and horn" That's been around for a millenium or so and survived!
it was decorated with a carved lozenge pattern, so if you're going to
be a viking chieftan you might like to carve a pattern into the
thicker bottom end of your horns. If you extend the pattern up the
horn be aware that the horn gets thinner the further up you go.

A strap is very useful if your horn is anything above wine glass size.
A popular method of fixing is to drill a hone in the solid tip of the
horn and attach a ring of wire to the horn through this hole. (Make
sure you drill through the solid tip or you'll have a leak!) then tie
a loop slightly smaller than the mouth of the horn in a thong, leather
strap, length of tablet braid or whatever and slide it up towards the
mouth of the horn. Tie the other end of the strap through the loop at
the horns tip.

If you're good at metalwork you can get more elaborate and put fancy
patterned metal horn mounts around the mouth of the horn and on the
tip. Horn tips in the shape of stylised birds were quite popular. If
you fancy getting this ambitious let me know I can probably refer you
to some books with pictures of horn mounts in them. They definately
add pose value to a horn!

Incidentally there is a practical joker element where I am that
carries round very large curved horns full of water and offers to let
the unwary drink from them on hot days. If you don't hold them right
the twist of the horn traps water that suddenly escapes when you
drink. This gets you drenched. Does the SCA do this aswell or are you
all above such horseplay? (I used to enjoy the cooling drench of water
so I delibearetely fell for the trick every time :-)

Jennifer
Vanaheim vikings


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: pa142548 at utkvm1.utk.edu (T. Archer)
Subject: Re: Parctical handling of horn question
Organization: University of Tennessee Division of Continuing Education
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1993 14:29:01 GMT

In article <JAB2.93Nov30110044 at bhars243.stl.stc.co.uk> jab2 at stl.stc.co.uk (Jennifer Ann Bray) writes:
>Incidentally there is a practical joker element where I am that
>carries round very large curved horns full of water and offers to let
>the unwary drink from them on hot days. If you don't hold them right
>the twist of the horn traps water that suddenly escapes when you
>drink. This gets you drenched. Does the SCA do this aswell or are you
>all above such horseplay? (I used to enjoy the cooling drench of water
>so I delibearetely fell for the trick every time :-)

I dunno if we're 'above' it, but one of the first things I was taught was to 
turn the point down.  I tell all newbies when I have the opportunity.  But 
then, here at Thor's Mountain, we rarely drink water, and a drenching is a 
sinful waste of good homebrew.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Mail to PA142548 at UTKVM1.UTK.EDU.  Mail to ARCHER at that address will 
bounce.
             "Don't blame me, I voted libertarian!"
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=


From: LIBLBM at orion.DEpaul.EDU (MURPHY          LORI)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: RE: SCA Digest V6 #1061
Date: 30 Nov 1993 08:09:00 -0500
Organization: The Internet

Drinking Horns

Dear Matz:

	All you need to do to a horn in order to use it as a drinking vessel
is to clean the inside as thoroughly as possible and then line it with
beeswax.  Melt the wax in a double boiler and pour it in your horn and then 
pour it out, repeat two or three times.  If you have plenty of wax, this is
no problem.  If you haven't, you'll just have to slosh the wax around in
order to cover completely.  I suggest you do not use your horn for anything
hot or too acidic, and remember it is not dishwasher safe, wash only with
lukewarm, mildly soapy water.

Jon/Seamus


From: folo at prairienet.org (F.L. Watkins)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Cleaning out a cow horn - how to?
Date: 5 Jun 1994 15:56:50 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana


I recommend that anyone wishing to work with horn--or wood or
leather, etc.--get a copy of THE BOOK OF BUCKSKINNING ii, edited
by William Scurlock and published by Rebel Press (publishers of
MUZZLELOADER Magazine). II contains a lengthy article on powder
horns and an absolutely indispensible article by George Glenn
on making camp equipment. He deals with box, beds, chairs, valises
and much else. My copy of II has been used so often that the 
varnish has come off the corner; and I recommend it for anyone
in pre-19th century reenacting.

The section on horn tells how to clean it, how to shape it and
gives you such projects as a horn spoon, a cup and several other
useful items.

Any of the BOOKS OF BUCKSKINNING are great (and can be used by
medieval reenactors as well, so don't be put off by the title);
they are some of the few books published by someone else that we
regularly keep in stock. They can be picked up at most black-
powder events, at events we attend, from the publisher (Rebel
Publishing Co., Rte 5, Box 347-M, Texarkana, TX 75501 or from
most book stores that make special orders (it'll take a while,
though). The price is currently $12.95 and the ISBN is
o-9605666-2-7, LOC 80-54597.

Hope this helps, Folo
-- 
Damin de Folo - F.L.Watkins - folo at prairienet.org
Baron Wurm Wald (MK) - Commander Baldwin's Reg't (NWTA)


From: Karen.Moon at f555.n387.z1.fidonet.org (Karen Moon)
Date: 06 Jun 94 16:53:00 -0500
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Cleaning out a cow horn - how to?
Organization: Fidonet: Cygnus I.I.N. / San Antonio, TX / 210-641-2063 

My Lord,
Having witnessed and participated in a number of horn cleaning 
procedures -- lots of Vikings around here; it happens -- here's the 
method we've always used: 1) Rig a stand for your horn in the sink, or 
outside (or wherever); 2) Arm yourself with a good stiff bottle brush 
and boil some water; 3) fill the horn with boiling water, let it cool 
awhile and attack the grubby inside with the bottle brush.  Repeat as 
necessary; 4) Once the inside of your horn is free of nasty horn 
residue, you start working on the smell which, if not neutralized, will 
make using your horn as a drinking vessel nigh impossible.  To do this: 
5)fill the horn with boiling apple cider vinegar, let it stand several 
hours, maybe even overnight. Empty horn, see if it's bearable yet.  If 
it smells like vinegar, not horn, this is good.  If it still smells 
bad, repeat process. *Note - IMO it will never smell "good", just 
bearable.*  6) Now get a jug of really cheap red wine -- we can 
recommend Carlo Rossi Chianti, but use your favorite local rotgut; 7) 
heat up the wine, fill the horn with it and let sit.  Again, repeat 
process as desired.  Now I know this sounds like it takes awhile but 
only the most offensive horns took over 2-3 days.  Now you'll need to 
polish up the outside using... someone help me on this part.  My 
boredom threshold was never high enough to get to this point so I left 
it to the really hard-core crafters with their emery clothes and 
jewelers rouge and what not.
As for the beeswax method, never heard of it and I don't know what they 
were really doing.  It may well impart a very nice scent to the horn, 
but you wouldn't be able to use it for hot drinks (and considering I've 
seen everything from hot cocoa to Bloody Marys actually being mixed in 
horns, I can't think bits of bees wax floating on the top of your 
potables would add much to your enjoyment.)
Good luck.
If you find an easier way, let me know and I'll pass it on.
Mari ferch Rathtyen, OL
Barony of Bjornsborg
Kingdom of Ansteorra
---------
Fidonet:  Karen Moon 1:387/555
Internet: Karen.Moon at f555.n387.z1.fidonet.org


From: mcs at unlinfo.unl.edu (M Straatmann)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: RE; Horn
Date: 6 Jun 1994 12:30:52 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska--Lincoln	

F.L. Watkins (folo at prairienet.org) wrote:

: Now I'm confused. It seems to me that pouring bees wax into a
: horn container is like carrying coals to Newcastle: the reason
: horn is so versatile is because it *is* waterproof. Has anyone
: else heard/done this?

: Yrs, Folo
: -- 
: Damin de Folo - F.L.Watkins - folo at prairienet.org
: Baron Wurm Wald (MK) - Commander Baldwin's Reg't (NWTA)

I was under the impression that this was done to provide a safer 
"lining" in which to pour your liquids in.  Drinking straight from a 
horn, without it being sealed, can be nasty tasting at best and plain 
harmful at worst.  
It does not seal the horn in the sense of being water-tight, but 
rather seals the horn hygenically (sp?)

mikhail nikolaevich

--
Ye knowe ek, that in forme of speche is chaunge      |
Withinne a thousand yere, and wordes tho             | M. Straatmann
That hadden pris, now wonder nyce and straunge       | mcs at unlinfo.unl.edu
Us thinketh hem, and yit they spake hem so. - Chaucer|


From: jab2 at stl.stc.co.uk (Jennifer Ann Bray)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: RE; Horn
Date: 6 Jun 94 15:47:56
Organization: STC Technology Ltd., London Road, Harlow, UK.

All we do to clean our drinking horns is remove the cores, give them a
good scrub with a stiff bottle brush then fill them up with
sterilising solution and leave a while.

the sterilising solutions vary from the ones used by home brewers, to
the ones used to sterilise baby's bottles. None of them seem to be any
better or worse than the others it just depends on what you've got
handy.

I know some people who sterilise with bleach, but it can leave a nasty
aftertaste in the horn if you don't rinse well enough. Some people
just wash them thoroughly with soap and water, but most prefer to be
cautious and sterilise.

I would guess that the beeswax lining is an attempt to line the horn
so that you don't have to go through so much cleaning. I even knew
someone who lined his horn with varnish since he was in a hurry and
didn't have time to clean it properly. That was a big mistake, the
horn tasted of varnish for ever afterwards. Personally I'd rather
clean my horn as any sort of lining would reduce it's capacity & I
want as much room left for ale as possible!

You can trim the top of the horn to shape and fit any fancy mountings
you want either before or after sterilising it. Some people I know
regularly sterilise their horns with sterilising solution for baby's
bottles & it doesn't seem to harm the horn or fittings at all.

My horn is pretty plain with just a braided leather strap to hang it
by, this is attached to a ring of wire fixed through the tip (the horn
is solid there so it's safe to drill through). I have seen a dark age
drinking horn in London Museum decorated with lines scribed round the
horn, and rows of ring-and-dots. Some time I'm planning on carving
something similar into a horn for myself.

I have seen horns with their surface left plain, and horns sanded to a
matt finish. The most popular finish is a smooth polish which is got
by sanding with increasingly finer grades of sandpaper down to 1000
grade, then polishing with jewellers rouge. It gives a lovely shine
and depth to the horn.

Jennifer/Rannveik

Vanaheim vikings


From: dickeney at access.digex.net (Dick Eney)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: RE; Horn
Date: 6 Jun 1994 21:08:01 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA

In article <2steps$1l9 at vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>,
F.L. Watkins <folo at prairienet.org> wrote:
>
>Now I'm confused. It seems to me that pouring bees wax into a
>horn container is like carrying coals to Newcastle: the reason
>horn is so versatile is because it *is* waterproof. Has anyone
>else heard/done this?
>
So is cast iron waterproof, but it's still the better for seasoning.  My 
lady, Tamar, points out that it's to make the horn smooth and washable 
inside -- in its natural (rough) state horn would retain more than a 
slight flavor of whatever you drank out of it last.

|-----Mandarin 2/c Vuong Manh, C.P. (dickeney at access.digex.net)-----|


From: jab2 at stl.stc.co.uk (Jennifer Ann Bray)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: RE; Horn
Date: 7 Jun 94 10:11:37
Organization: STC Technology Ltd., London Road, Harlow, UK.

> My 
>lady, Tamar, points out that it's to make the horn smooth and washable 
>inside -- in its natural (rough) state horn would retain more than a 
>slight flavor of whatever you drank out of it last.

All the cow horns I have seen have been smooth on the inside. Are
there some breeds that are rough on the inside? or are these old horns
that have cracked and peeled somehow?

Beeswax can get quite sticky on a hot day, I would have thought that
the horn would be more washable than the wax?

Jennifer/Rannveik

Vanaheim Vikings


From: gshetler at envirolink.ORG (Greg Shetler)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: RE; Horn
Date: 6 Jun 1994 16:15:28 -0400
Organization: the internet

(see also the previous post - sorry, I can't thread from here)

The idea behind lining/not lining the horns really comes from whether the user
wants/ does not want the flavor of horn in his/her drinks.  Personally, I
think the horn flavor is rather nice, and enjoy it.  Moreover, just as with
pewter tankards, the flavor of your drink invades the horn, and enriches
future draughts.

Varnish can be used, but you must be certain to THOROUGHLY mix the varnish
first, and be sure that after complete drying, the horn is thoroughly washed
in a mixture of alcohol and water (to remove the easily diffused volatile
compounds).  Wax is better, because there is no real flavor problem....

For carving, I suggest using a dremel tool, with a fine bit.  Wood-working
tools can be used, but be careful:  the curved surface makes slips much more
likely....

Enjoy!
---
---------------------------------------->>

Mordock von Rugen, Commander, Outlands Fray
MKA: Greg Shetler
>From the Barony of Al-Barran, Kingdom of the Outlands
Once from Dun-Or, in Caid
Originally from Western Seas, in Caid


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: delint at meena.cc.uregina.ca
Subject: RE: Cleaning out a cow horn - how to?
Date: 8 JUN 94 06:29:25 CST
Organization: University of Regina, Regina, Sask., Canada

In a previous article, steveo at baervan.nmt.edu (Steven L Anderson) wrote:
>Yes, I am sure this is *somewhere*, but I'll be danged if I can find
>it!  How does one go about cleaning out a cow horn?  I have a good
>source (a vet) for them, but I want to know how to prepare it.  Any
>sources (or just a quick rundown) would be greatly appreciated.
> 
>	Erik Sannvik
>
What I have been told is that one boils the wee beastye to loosen the goo
from the inside, and then work it over with a bottle brush.  I DON't know
how to polish it, but I will agree with the need to seal it by some means
(in one of the leatherwork Compleat Anachronists there's a recipe for a 
pitch sealer that's probably better even than wax), not only because the
horn will ALWAYS give off the essense of damp cow (yum!), but because any
liquid you put into it can get into the horn and stain it.  Especially bad
for fruit-punch fanciers...

Cedric van Kiesterzijl
"Mmmmm, froot punch...."


From: donan at ecst.csuchico.edu (Donan)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Cleaning out a cow horn - how to?
Date: 8 Jun 1994 20:26:15 GMT
Organization: California State University, Chico

It's actually quite simple if you know how.

One way I did it was boiling the horns in water for a longh period of time,
just make sure you do this outside, my house stunk for many, many hours 
afterwards of "boiled beef", but that didn't really seem to work too well
I found, so I let Mother Nature take over.

It was summer time when I did this and I just set the horns outside for a week
and let Nature's meat cleaners (yes, I used maggots) to clean out all the 
flesh from the inside of the horns, leaving behind the inner core of the horn
that is normally connected to the skull.

Those little guys cleaned it out quite nicely, although it did look kinda
disgusting with the maggots crawling around inside.
After about a week, I could easily remove the center from the horn and then
boiled it out again, killing off/sterilizing everything that may have been
left behind.

As for treating the horn, you could use the old fashioned wax method, but as
you know, wax dissolves in liquids eventually. But if you want something that
protects as well as compliments the natural beauty of the horn, go to your
local craft store and look for "Envirotech" or "Envirotech Light". It's a 
simple polymer plastic coat used for covering woodwork and such, like 
Verithane, but 50x greater in protection but is not poisonous after it dries.

It's really easy to use, just follow the directions on the box.

Hope this helps and best of luck to you

And I invite anyone to write me, telling me how this method worked for them,

In service to all,
Lord Donan MacGlashan


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: solveig at utkvx.utk.edu (Duren J Thompson)
Subject: RE: Cleaning out a cow horn - how to?
Organization: University of Tennessee
Date: Mon, 13 Jun 1994 18:29:00 GMT

In article <8JUN94.06292539 at meena.cc.uregina.ca>, delint at meena.cc.uregina.ca writes...
>In a previous article, steveo at baervan.nmt.edu (Steven L Anderson) wrote:
>>Yes, I am sure this is *somewhere*, but I'll be danged if I can find
>>it!  How does one go about cleaning out a cow horn?  I have a good
>>source (a vet) for them, but I want to know how to prepare it.  Any
>>sources (or just a quick rundown) would be greatly appreciated.
>> 
>>	Erik Sannvik
>>
>What I have been told is that one boils the wee beastye to loosen the goo
>from the inside, and then work it over with a bottle brush.  I DON't know
>how to polish it, but I will agree with the need to seal it by some means
>(in one of the leatherwork Compleat Anachronists there's a recipe for a 
>pitch sealer that's probably better even than wax), not only because the
>horn will ALWAYS give off the essense of damp cow (yum!), but because any
>liquid you put into it can get into the horn and stain it.  Especially bad
>for fruit-punch fanciers...
> 
>Cedric van Kiesterzijl
>"Mmmmm, froot punch...."
Hi! this is my very first time to use the rialto - eep! but I just couldn't let
this one go.  Locally, Sir Goldmund of Aragon taught a class a few years back
at a Norse workshop on cleaning a horn.  He used varying sized gravel to slowly
but surely clean it out. Now I know this isn't very fast, but I'm pretty sure
it's period.  Basically you start with large (sharp if possible) gravel pieces,
cover the end with something (to protect your hand) and shake it alot. Then you
move to smaller and smaller stones until you are using sand to polish the
inside.  He advocated wax to coat it but I recommend not using beeswax as it is
a little soft and softens easily in the heat. (Imagine getting to Pennsic and
finding melted wax all over everything.)  Some of the more commercial wax
hardeners would be advised.

                     Thanks, and Hi demere and martha!
                     Solveig Ericsdottir  
I am told my address is solveig at utkvx.utk.edu but I haven't tried it yet. 


From: mross at offserv.tc.faa.gov (Mike Ross, nyma, x6976)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: water buffalo horn
Date: 28 Sep 1994 19:18:08 GMT
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc.

In article 25307 at prostar.com, moreta at prostar.com (Moreta) writes:
>
>IP>Good gentles,
>IP>  I am currently in the process of attempting to recreate a composite
>IP>bow.  The one piece of material that I am lacking is good lengths of
>IP>Water Buffalo Horn.
>IP>
>IP>  Does anyone know of a good source for horn?  Thanks for your time,
>
>(not knowing what goes into making a bow...except on a VERY rudimental
>level..) could cow horn be used?
>
>Mo

Atlanta Cutlery frequently sells water buffalo horn in their
knife making section. I don't have the address handy but can get
it if wanted. Museum Replicas is a part of them so they can be
that way also.

Mike
---
 Michael E. Ross   TRW/NYMA	
   (mross)         Target Generation Facility, FAA Technical Center
 609/485-6976      Atlantic City Airport, NJ 08405
                   Internet:  mross at tgf.tc.faa.gov


From: nusbache at em1.rmc.ca (2LT Aryeh JS Nusbacher)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Drinking horns, coating
Date: 27 Jan 1995 20:47:44 GMT
Organization: Royal Military College of Canada

B. Shaifer (imperial at delphi.com) wrote:

> What materials can be used to coat the inside of
> a horn that will not be affected by hot or acidic liquids.
> Bees wax is not acceptable.

Brewer's pitch is a food-grade pitch which works very well.  It's
commercially available, and at least on SCA merchant (Thomas of
Douglas) breaks it down into 1 litre tins for convenient sale to
hobbyists.

--
Aryk Nusbacher				|  When I have learned what progress
Post-Graduate War Studies Programme	|   has been made in modern gunnery,
Royal Military College of Canada	|  When I know more of tactics than
					    a novice in a nunnery....


From: bubba at zark.ludd.luth.se (U.J|rgen \hman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Drinking horns, coating
Date: 29 Jan 1995 15:19:43 +0100
Organization: Lulea University Computer Society - Ludd

In <3gbm5g$ql at cs6.rmc.ca> nusbache at em1.rmc.ca (2LT Aryeh JS Nusbacher) writes:


>B. Shaifer (imperial at delphi.com) wrote:

>> What materials can be used to coat the inside of
>> a horn that will not be affected by hot or acidic liquids.
>> Bees wax is not acceptable.

>Brewer's pitch is a food-grade pitch which works very well.  It's
>commercially available, and at least on SCA merchant (Thomas of
>Douglas) breaks it down into 1 litre tins for convenient sale to
>hobbyists.

>--
>Aryk Nusbacher				|  When I have learned what progress
>Post-Graduate War Studies Programme	|   has been made in modern gunnery,
>Royal Military College of Canada	|  When I know more of tactics than
>					    a novice in a nunnery....

Greetings....
Remember that you doesn't have to coat the horn unless you will pour
acidic liquids in it. We scrape them well on the inside, and finish it
all by pouring strong tea in it to remove the yucky taste that it has
after cleaning and scraping.

Be well... / Ulf

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Ulf Mj|dtunga(Mjoedtunga, Meadtongue)	*Canton of Frostheim
					*(where frogs live NOT)
Vert, in pale a crescent inverted	*Barony of Nordmark
and a Thor's hammer argent.		*Kingdom of Drachenwald

bubba at ludd.luth.se -=-  U.J|rgen \hman -=- U.Joergen Oehman(NHL-Spelling)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


From: john.robarts at mercopus.com (John Robarts) 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Drinking horns, coating
Date: 30 Jan 95 12:24:00 GMT
Organization: Mercury Opus BBS - St. Petersburg, FL - 813-321-0734

JJP>. at SUBJECT:Re: Drinking horns, coating                                 N
JJP>. at FROM   :palmer at ssdgwy.mdc.com                                       N
JJP>. at MSGID  :<palmer-2501950849160001 at q5020593.mdc.com>                  N
JJP>From: palmer at ssdgwy.mdc.com (John J. Palmer)
JJP>Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
JJP>Subject: Re: Drinking horns, coating
JJP>Date: 25 Jan 1995 16:43:35 GMT
JJP>Organization: Space Station Materials and Processes
JJP>Lines: 29

JJP>In article <5g9Y60u.imperial at delphi.com>, B. Shaifer <imperial at delphi.com>
JJP>wrote:

JJP>> What materials can be used to coat the inside of
JJP>> a horn that will not be affected by hot or acidic liquids.
JJP>> Bees wax is not acceptable.  Please return via email to
JJP>> Imperial at delphi.com..   Most gracoiusly  Vladimir

"Spar Urathane" ....   It can be found at most Marine Supply
outlets. I have used it for Many years with No problems!
Be sure to let it dry throughly between coats. Four or five
coats seems to work fine, though I have used as few as two and
as many as ten.

Lrd. Corwin ap Arawyn
---


From: afn03234 at usenet.freenet.ufl.edu (Ronald L. Charlotte)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Drinking cups, coating
Date: 27 Jan 1995 05:31:43 GMT
Organization: Alachua County Freenet

KRMcNutt (krmcnutt at aol.com) wrote:
: I would also be grateful for some advise on this subject.  I have an
: unfinished horn that needs a coating.

: Kelly
: KRMcNutt at aol.com

The material that I've used with a fair amount of success is modern, but 
is impervious to 90% of the abusive alchemy most of us are likely to drink.
It can be found under various brand names, but the one in front of me now 
is called _Envirotex Lite_ and can be found at most well stocked craft or 
hardware stores.  It is an epoxy type material and will stand up to 
anything that most modern plasticware will tolerate.

A period material that works, if it can be found, is brewer's pitch, but 
is not heat resistant.  I have seen a splendid leather drinking jack 
turned into a shelf ornament by the application of hot coffee.  It can be 
found by getting an issue of Zymergy (a home and microbrewer's magazine) 
and checking out the suppliers of those who brew traditional "ale in the 
wood".

Good luck, hope I helped
 --
	al Thaalibi -- An Crosaire, Trimaris
	Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL
	afn03234 at freenet.ufl.edu or roncharlotte at delphi.com


From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: CRAFTS: Using Horn
Date: 21 Mar 1995 16:03:52 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway

Some moths ago, I posted to both of these locations seeking information
regarding the use of Horn in period.  If I may be so bold, I now
post some really nifty information...

The Following material is excerpted from:

MacGregor, Arthur M.  Bone, Antler, Ivory & Horn, the technology of
	skeletal materials since the Roman Period.  London & Sydney/
	Totawa NJ:  Croom Helm/Barnes and Noble, 1985

(Which, if anyone has a copy of, or finds a copy of, that they would
be inclined to sell, please let me know)

Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn/Marc Carlson
==============================================================
Page 66

HORN

As already stressed, the composition of horn is quite distinct from that
of antler and hence the methods employed in working it can be very
different.  This is particularly true in the case of softening and 
moulding, which have for centuries been essential processes in the 
horner's repertoire.

Rendering horn soft and malleable is achieved simply by the application
of heat, although delicate control is needed to avoid damaging the
material. (No chemical change is therefore involved here, although
Zurowski (1974) mentions an alternative method of softening in which 
horn may be boiled in a solution of wood ash.)  Following some weeks of
soaking in a tub or pit, the keratinous horn sheaths were separated
from the bony cores and set to boil in a cauldron.  After one and a half
hours boiling, the horn was taken out and held over a fire with a pair of
tongs, or with a special toothed warming tool (Andes, 1925) to evaporate
the excess water and further soften it by the gentle and even application
of heat; to was then ready for "breaking" or opening.  According to the
account of a York horner working in the first quarter of the present
century (recorded in Wehnam, 1964), one of two cutting methods would
normally be used, depending on the desired shape of the horn plate; after
the solid tip had been removed, the cut could either be maide in cork-
screw fashion to produce an elongated rectangle when opened out with
the aid of a pair of tongs, or else a straight cut could be made from
tip to base, giving a squarish plate.  Andes stresses that the cut is 
normally made along the weakest line, namely the inside of the curve.
The whole of the above process had to be carried out quickly and efficiently,
while maintaining the approprriate temperature; too much heat would 
scorch the horn, and not enough would result in its readopting its
former shape.

After some preliminary trimming and removal of blemishes with the aid
of a scraping knife, the plates of horn could be returned to the cauldron
for resoftening, afterwhich they were pressed between heated iron plates,
the smooth surface of which had been smoothed with Grease [Endnote #11:
in the 1740s a box press with a screw pressure control was developed for
this purpose (G.B.Hughes, 1953), several iron plates and plaques of horn
being interleaved within it.  An account of its use in 19th C Kenilworth
is reproduced in Drew (1965)]  Final smoothing and trimming was then all
that was necessary before the plates were ready for manufacture into items
such as combs, boxes, etc.

Exceptionally thin and translucent plates, such as were used in the windows
of lantersn (hence, probably, the ME form "lanthorn"), were produced by
selecting suitably light horns, soaking them in water for about a month,
and then delaminating them or splitting them into two or more leaves
before subjecting them to pressure as above.  Andres (1925) mentions that
translucency could be improved by smearing the plates with oil and warming
them over a fire, or else by boiling them in three parts water to one part
waste fat, before pressing them for half an hour and finally laying them 
in a dish of cold water.  A fine globular lantern incorporating plates of
this sort is described by Way (1855) and several smaller lanterns are
illustrated by Hardwick (1981).  Individual leaves of horn, bearing marks
from preparatory grinding and polishing processes have been recovered from
Tudor levels at Bayard's Castle, London (Armitage, 1982).

Sheets of horn could be welded together by pressing them between greased
plates at temperatures higher than thos employed in the processes described
above (Wenham, 1964).  The steel plates were heated in a fire and placed in
press, where tallow was applied to them.  When the temerature was judged
to be right, the horn plates were introoduced and the pressure applied.
After a few minutes, the plates would begin to 'run' and the pressure would 
be further increased.  On cooling off they would be stuck fast together,
providing the appropriate delicate balance of temerature and pressure had
been maintained.

Andes (1925) gives a recipe for enhancing the "elasticity" (toughness) of
horn, involving a solution of three parts nitric acid, fifteen parts white
wine, two parts vinegar, and two parts rain or river water.  After treatment
in this way, it is said that horn combs could withstand being trodden on
withouth breaking.

The methods described here have been in common use for at least the past
three centuries and many of them probably have much earlier origins.
Blumner (1879) quotes Pauscanius on the softening of horn in the second
century AD, and mentions a striking range of utensils known from classical
literary sources.  In most surviving early artefacts in which horn was used
other than in its complete form, too little survives of the organic material
to demonstrate whether it had been worked in this way.  The plates on the
Benty Grange helmet [figure], howerver, were judged (Bruce-Mitford and 
Luscombe 1974) to have been softened and bent into shape.  A fragment of 
thin horn with incised decoration, perhaps originally from a box or casket, 
found in a medieval context at York [figure] may be an early piece of 
pressed or delaminated horn.  The series of horn combes with riveted side
plates [fiure] seems to consist of the entire thickness of horn, which has
simply been flattened and filed.

The full potential of horn as a versitile raw material was perhaps only 
fully recognized during the last century...

Bibliography for this excerpt:

Andes, L.E.  1925. Bearbeitung des Horns, Elfenbeins, Skildplatts, der
	Knochen und Perlmutter (Leibzeig and Vienna: Hartleben)
Armitage, P.L. 1982. "Studies on the remains of domestic livestock from
	Roman, medieval, and early modern London: Objectives and methods".
	in A.R. Hall and H.K. Kenward (eds.) _Environmental Archaeology
	in the Urban Context_ (London: Council for British Archaeology 
	Research Report 43), 94-106.
Blumner, H. 1879. Technologie and Terminologie der Gewerbe und Kunste bei 
	Greichen und Romern 2 (Leipzig: Teubner)
Bruce-Mitford, R. and Luscombe, M.R. 1974.  "The Benty Grange Helmet" in
	R. Bruce-Mitford, _Aspects of Anglo-Saxon Archaeology_ (London:
	Gollancz), 223-42.
Drew, J.H. 1965. "The Horn Comb industry of Kenilworth", _Transactions
	and proceedings of the Brimingham Archaeological Society_ 82, 21-7.
Hardwick, P. 1981. Discovering Horn. (Guilford: Lutterworth)
Hughes, G.B. 1953. Living Crafts (London: Lutterworth)
Way, A. 1855. "Notice of a relique of old municipal ceremony, preserved at 
	Chichester" Archaeological Journal 12, 374-6.
Wenham, L.P. 1964. "Hornpot Lane and the horners of York" Annual report of
	of the Yorkshire Philosphical Society, 23-56.
Zurowski, K. 1974.  "Zmiekczanie porozy i kosci stosowane przez wytworcow
	w starozytnosci i we wczesnym sredniowieczu" Acta Universtatis
	Nicoli Copernici, Archaeologia 4 (Torun), 2-23.


From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Horn Stuff (was Drinking Horns)
Date: 23 May 1995 14:59:14 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway

<From: "Michael E. Vezeau" <vezeau at ctron.com>>
>I need some information on how to transform
>a dirty old horn into a clean, shiny, and
>smooth drinking horn that is safe to put
>to use.
>
>Any www, ftp, or book names that may help
>me out would be greatly appreciated.

*sigh*

For a "Drinking Horn" you don't need any books.  The following process
will work just fine:

First:  Make sure the Horn is hollow, and the core has been removed.  If
        not, there are a number of ways to do this starting with leaving
        the silly thing sitting on your roof for a few months to let the
        core dry out.
Second: Soak the horn in bleach for a few hours.  Then scrub it and rinse
        it.
Third:  Scrape out anything that remains inside the horn as far down as you
        can reach.  My wife used a bottle brush for a long time on this (I 
        don't since I rarely, if ever, make drinking horns).
Fourth: Cut the upper end of the horn off to form the lip of the vessel.
Fifth:  Sand completely smooth inside and out.
Sixth:  (Optional) I've recently had it suggested, though I have not as yet 
        tried it, that at this point, is to fill it with water and drop a 
        couple of Efferdent tablets inside it, leave it over night.  Dump it 
        out and repeat.
Seventh: (Optional) Some people line their horns with Wax or Polyurithane,
        while others do not.  I'm told that as long as you don't drink anything
        that will soak into the horn and turn rancid (such as milk), you 
        really don't need to line them.
Eighth: Sand the exterior again, rub it with steel wool if you desire, and
        burnish it with a bit of horn to get a perfectly smooth exterior.
Ninth:  Decorate.

Much of the preceeding was garnered from a guest at a wedding I attended
this weekend who's name I believe was something like "Gunther Bob"
(Nice guy).  I know, you're supposed to go to these things to see
the bride and groom off, not grill the guests, but... :)

I apologize for the "sigh" at the beginning, and what follows here is
a deleteable set of opinions.

Personally, I *HATE* drinking horns, unless they are VERY well done, in
which case I can only admire the wasted craftsmanship.  They are, IMO,
overdone, and a waste of perfectly good horn.  I know they are Period
for some people, but I have rarely seen them done or decorated in a
period fashion.

Does this mean that I think you shouldn't have one?  Don't be silly.
My opinions should be relatively meaningless to anyone else but me, and
goodness knows if your accessories revolve around my approval, there's
something SERIOUSLY wrong.

"Mihi Satis Apparet Propter     Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
  Se Ipsum Appetenda Sapientia"	University of Northkeep
 -- St. Dunstan			Northkeepshire, Ansteorra
				(I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu)


From: dragonse at ix.netcom.com (Robert Womble )
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Raw Horn
Date: 26 May 1995 17:55:30 GMT
Organization: Netcom

In <3q2aneINN8al at dur-news.ctron.com> vezeau at ctron.com (Michael E.
Vezeau) writes: 
>
>I am searching for sources of raw horn for 
>the construction of drinking horns.
>Any info is welcome.
>
>vezeau at ctron.com

I Bought a slightly cleaned horn at Tandy Leather for $5.00, they had
uncleaned ones even cheaper.


From: Malcolm Grandis <Malcolm at celtic.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Drinking Horns
Date: 24 May 1995 00:09:29 +0100
Organization: None

What I have done in the past consists of three stages. Where you start 
depends on whether your horn is fresh from the beast or fresh from 
the junk shop.

1. (Fresh from the beast) Lose the yuckky brown stuff.

Scoop out as much of the spongy stuff and blood vessels as possible 
using a split in half piece of bamboo. If the horn is none too fresh 
you may need to hold your breath or eat some chilli while you do it ...
Go to the local pet store and get some live meal worms (used as fish 
food) tip these still in their sawdust into the horn leave covered with 
some nylon netting outdoors for 8 days.

2. (Fresh fom the junk shop) Wash and sterilise

Be careful - extreme/fast temperature changes can make the horn 
delaminate internally. Immerse in very hot _not_ boiling soapy water 
for 20 minutes. Rinse in the same water thoroughly and leave to cool 
slowly. Now rinse with cold water, get some baby bottle sterilising 
tablets and make up according to directions. Leave the sterilising 
solution in all night. Rinse well in cold water and leave at least a 
week for the horn to recover.

3. (someone just sold you this drinking horn) Seal It

If you do not seal it then certain acidic drinks such as ciders, dry 
wines and most fruit juices will dissolve the horn, this makes for odd 
tasing hooch and a bad stomach. The best thing to use is two pack epoxy 
boat builders _varnish_ (not glue) which cures completely with very 
little smell/taste residue. The next best thing to use is a normal matt 
polyurethane varnish. Using emery paper wrapped around a stick roughen 
as much of the horn as possible on the inside, pour in a few ounces of 
varnish and slosh it around until you are certain all of the inside is 
covered. Pour off the excess leave somewhere warm (60-80 degrees to 
dry) if you are using epoxy since oxygen inhibits the cure fill the 
horn with water before leaving it.

4. (optional) Wax it

Carve, paint and wax the outside, add a bronze rim and an animal-head 
terminal and you are there!

--        _     _
Try Our /     /   Web Page  http://ifu.net/html/culture/celts/thecelts.htm
        \_ELTI\_
==========================================================================


From: dragonse at ix.netcom.com (Robert Womble )
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Help with Horn
Date: 25 May 1995 21:37:01 GMT
Organization: Netcom

In <3psqk1INN314 at dur-news.ctron.com> vezeau at ctron.com (Michael E.
Vezeau) writes: 
>
>I am seeking information for the proper methods of making
>a raw horn into a safe-to-use drinking horn, if indeed there
>are any.  ANY info would help.
>
>Thanks
>
>vezeau at ctron.com
Clean it well.... Coat the inside with Brewers pitch (Homebrew store)
or a plastic resin that STATES it is safe to drink from. NOTE: Brewers
pitch does not work well with the following - Alchol of high proof
(EG:whiskey) or Hot Drinks.


From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: CRAFTS: Working Horn (Yes, we're back to that again)
Date: 17 Jul 1995 09:37:53 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway

As some of you may recall, I've been playing around with trying to shape
and work with horn, since it's a period material that appears to have
been used to a certain extent during "the Middle Ages", and tends to
be overlooked other than for making the ubiquitous Drinking Horn.
Since it's remotely possible that some of you may have a use for 
this information, I thought I'd pass it along.

1.  Working Horn "Cold"
	a.  Sawing/Cutting
		Horn can be sawn into sections fairly easily (relatively
		speaking), although it's a good idea to use some sort of 
		marking or tape to keep track of where you want to cut.
	b.  Carving
		Horn carves easily, if you exercise patience.  It is much
		more likely than wood for your carving to follow the grain
		more than you might like, but if you practice, this seems to
		clear up.
		Using files and rasps on Horn is like shaping the most friendly
		bit of wood you can imagine.  I sat and filed a bottle stopper
		from the end of a bit of horn one night during a populace
		meeting and part of a revel.
		*I've never done this, but am informed that horn (especially
		the more solid bits) turns amazingly well on a lathe.
		
		N.B., I would hesitate to use "power tools" on horn that's
		been shaped, as the vibrations they create can break any
		weaknesses in the horn, breaking it.

2.  Working horn "Hot"
	There are several ways of doing this, and I have been practicing with
	both.  Essentially, however, is that as horn gets hotter, it gradually
	reaches a point where it becomes plastic enough to mold and shape.
	Judging from some of the examples I've seen, if done properly you
	can do some seriously amazing things with it.  Unfortunately, I'm
	still trying to track down the proper way to handle it.

	As with making Cuir Bouilli, the point at which it melts is in a range
	that varies somewhat with each bit of material, and the instant you
	pass over that, you can wind up with an unusable product. The melting
	range appears to be 350 +/- 25 degrees Fahrenheit (180 +/- 14 C).
	If you are lucky, you can get it to change shape with out altering
	the color.  However, more often than not you will wind up changing
	it to a lovely golden brown color.

	If you overheat it, it will burn, giving you bubbles and badly
	delaminating stuff that will *stink*.

	The thinner the piece of horn you are wanting to shape, the easier it
	is to work with.  I have not yet worked out the most efficient method
	for delaminating the layers from each other, but am working on it.

	The best way I have have found to press horn, and to make sheets, is to
	cut the tip off the horn and then cut the horn lengthwise, either to
	unwrap it or cut it into two separate bits.  Then using sheets of either
	steel or wood (I'm currently using oak), I've been pressing them with
	some "C" clamps.

	All the recipes call for coating the plates in tallow, and I haven't
	tried that yet (although I'm currently rendering a batch).  I *have*
	used some spray stuff to keep the horn from sticking to my iron plates
	(when I used them), but it *is* possible that the tallow may have more
	of a purpose than just keeping it from sticking.

	1.  Boiling
	Some people claim that this is all that is needed, and I certainly
	can't dispute that they can turn out some really nice material.  
	Boil the horn in water for an hour and a half (or longer), enough to
	soften it.  At this point, you can either try shaping it by hand
	or with pliers, and then letting it cool.
	You can also boil the ends of horn cups or containers to stretch in
	order to set a base in it.

	2.  Dry Baking.
	I started with this and while it does seem to work, particularly if 
	you work very gradually.  However, you are much more likely to split
	and crack the peices you are working with.

	3.  Wet Baking.
	Boil the horn in water for an hour and a half (or longer), enough to
	soften it.  At this point, you can either try shaping it by hand
	or with pliers, and then letting it cool, or else you can then place it
	in the plates and bake it, still wet, for about 10-15 minutes (longer 
	is fine if you watch it to keep it from burning).  You may have to 
	gradually flatten it, tightening the clamps as it softens 

[CAUTION: It may sound like a stupid warning, but 350 Degrees is REALLY HOT,
and the metal on the "C" Clamps will burn you if you so much as brush against
it.  You may want to wear a heavy long sleeve shirt with your gloves for this.
Trust me, I've got the burn marks on my arms from this]

	Finally remove the item from the heat and let it cool naturally before
	trying to remove it from the plates.

I haven't done the classic "Spoons" yet, but will let you know when I do.

Comments?

"Mihi Satis Apparet Propter     Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
  Se Ipsum Appetenda Sapientia"	University of Northkeep
 -- St. Dunstan			Northkeepshire, Ansteorra
				(I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu)


From: dalm at enterprise.america.com (Laura McKinstry)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Source for Horns??
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 1995 06:59:43
Organization: PSS InterNet Services, InterNet in Fl 904 253 7100

In article <DDqB5B.v2 at hpcvsnz.cv.hp.com> doug_brunner at hp-corvallis.om.hp.com (Doug Brunner) writes:
>From: doug_brunner at hp-corvallis.om.hp.com (Doug Brunner)
>Subject: Source for Horns??
>Date: Tue, 22 Aug 1995 20:19:58 GMT

>Does anyone have a Mail Order Source for Horns? I'm hearing that several
>companies offer Cleaned and dried horns for less than $10. The local 
>Slaughter Houses, here, want about $8, and I have to clean them myself. To 
>Save the mess, it's worth the $2.

Tandy leather does mail order, and they have cleaned and dried horns. They 
have two varieties of horn; I think what you're looking for is top - quality, 
unless you just want to make chunky toggles that look rustic. The top quality, 
though, gor for more like $15.  I'd give you the number, but I JUST tossed my 
catalog. I knew there was a reason I shouldn't have! Then ribs for dinner... 
milord, you will forgive me if I don't dig... :)

The cheaper ones look like they were collected from a field two years after 
they were shed. Not a pretty sight!  Good for checking air-flow in a 
horn-flute before drilling into a carefully polished, gorgeous one, though.

Good luck!


From: HCANNON at netins.net (HCANNON)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Source for Horns??
Date: 29 Aug 1995 21:04:45 GMT
Organization: INS Info Services, Des Moines, IA, USA

In article <dalm.8.0006FF03 at enterprise.america.com>, 
dalm at enterprise.america.com says...
>
>Tandy leather does mail order, and they have cleaned and dried horns. They 
>have two varieties of horn; I think what you're looking for is top - quality, 
>unless you just want to make chunky toggles that look rustic. The top quality, 
>though, gor for more like $15.  I'd give you the number, but I JUST tossed my 
>catalog. I knew there was a reason I shouldn't have! Then ribs for dinner... 
>milord, you will forgive me if I don't dig... :)
>
>The cheaper ones look like they were collected from a field two years after 
>they were shed. Not a pretty sight!  Good for checking air-flow in a 
>horn-flute before drilling into a carefully polished, gorgeous one, though.
>
Try Track of the Wolf for horns that have been "boiled and cleaned" in
both polished form ($5.99 for 10", less for smaller) and rough (which
range from $7.99/10-14" to $35.99 for the scrimshaw quality [creamy white
with contrasting tip] 16-20".  The helpful staff will select the horn which
most closely meets your stated desires.  Their phone is:(612)-424-2500
weekdays 8:00AM-5:00PM, Sat. 9:30AM-1:00PM CST.  No minimum order, plastic
accepted and only actual shipping charge tacked on.  I LOVE this place!
Oh, their address is:  Track of the Wolf
                       Box 6
                       Osseo, MN 55369-0006
In service,
Thorstein          m.k.a.   Wayne S.    


From: uwaylander at aol.com (UWaylander)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: HORN: Another Question
Date: 4 Sep 1995 22:16:43 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)

In response to "What do you coat the inside with"? - I don't coat them. 
My system consists of sanding as deeply into the lip of the horn as
possible.  Then I pack it with baking soda and allow it to set for several
days.  This gets rid of the noxious odour.  Next, I remove half of the
powder and add vinager.  Chemestry 101, middle ages style.  The
effervesence scrubs the inside all the way down.  Then, You cure the
sucker.  White wine (red will discolour it) for three days, to impart a
pleasant winey smell.  Beer if that is your wont.  I've found that the wax
and wax-like liners tend to melt and often add a subtle flavour of their
own.  We all try to stay period, but my morning coffee is much more
acceptable out of a waxless horn than a styro McDonald's cup (the Scotts
always made the best potables!)  Hope this helped.

                              Your's in service,
                                       Ullam


From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Horn stuff.
Date: 1 Sep 1995 11:43:16 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway

<david.razler at compudata.com (DAVID RAZLER)>
>Subject:Re: HORN: Another answer
>Nothing. It's solid, water resistent unless boiled, alcohol resistent, 
>etc.

This reminded me.  In case I haven't mentioned it, I spent a while
soaking horn in various fruit juices, vinegars, and so forth, to test
the belief that vinegar will dissolve the horn (a major reason for coating
them, it seems).  I have found nothing to support this belief.  Has anyone
any first hand knowledge that *does* support this legend?

I am currently trying an experiment based on a description I've run across
for delaminating horn, and will report back when that experiment is concluded.
Unfortunately, it requires soaking the horn for a month in water, so it's
a bit time consuming.

"Mihi Satis Apparet Propter     Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
  Se Ipsum Appetenda Sapientia"	University of Northkeep
 -- St. Dunstan			Northkeepshire, Ansteorra
				(I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu)


From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Delaminating Horn
Date: 12 Sep 1995 13:54:43 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway

A month ago, I began an experiment on horn based on material I had
found in:

Hardwick, P. 1981. Discovering Horn. (Guilford: Lutterworth)
Hughes, G.B. 1953. Living Crafts (London: Lutterworth)
MacGregor, Arthur M.  Bone, Antler, Ivory & Horn, the technology of
     skeletal materials since the Roman Period.  London &
     Sydney/Totawa NJ:  Croom Helm/Barnes and Noble, 1985).

on delaminating horn.  Most of the craft sources simply suggest
that you file, sand, or scrape with a sharp knife or broken glass
until the piece you have is the thickness you want.  To my mind,
this is a somewhat wasteful process (not to manage hard on my
sinuses, what with all that horn dust, although I have gotten used
to the smell... ).

MacGregor and Hughes both discuss extensive soaking of the horn
(although I'm fairly certain that MacGregor is simply reporting
information found in Hughes) prior to both simple moulding and to
delaminating.  The material on delaminating, for example to make
Lanthorn leaves (Horn lantern panes), says to soak the horn for a
month seemed a little extreme, but I figured what the heck.  I
found a pitcher, then took a horn, cut off the solid bit and cut it
down that side so that I had a cylinder of horn with cross section
of:  
                  **************
                **              **
              *                   *
              *                   *
              *                   =
              *                   *
              *                   *
               **               **
                 ***************

I dropped the horn in the pitcher and did my best to forget about
it.  I changed the water occasionally, because it gradually began
to stink (I suspect that keeping the same water might even help the
process, but I'll need a better container first).  Moreover the
horn will begin to REEK, but only if you put your nose up to it.

After a month, I dropped the horn in a pot of water to boil for two
hours.  The recipe called for a copper pot, but I don't have one,
although I did drop a length of copper wire in to minimize the
variables (chemistry wise).  A copper pot might have given a better
overall evenness of heating to the horn.

After two hours I removed it, and tried to flex it.  It took some
strength, but eventually I was able to "unroll" the horn, at which
point, the connective material between the horn, apparently
weakened by the month long emersion, and perhaps having absorbed
enough of the water to swell with the heat of the boiling, started
to give way, breaking open enough to stick a knife into to "lift
the layers apart.  When necessary, I would re-introduce the horn to
the boiling water, to help soften them up again.

The flattened and split sections went into my presses, to be
pressed together until they cooled, and they worked better than I'd
hoped.  After they cooled and hardened again. They were still as
hard as they had been (for the most), and ready for cleaning and
working into flat things.

"Mihi Satis Apparet Propter     Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
  Se Ipsum Appetenda Sapientia"	University of Northkeep
 -- St. Dunstan			Northkeepshire, Ansteorra
				(I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu)


Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: doug_brunner at hp-corvallis.om.hp.com (Doug Brunner)
Subject: Re: Delaminating Horn
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 1995 21:02:29 GMT
Organization: Hewlett Packard Inkjet Comp. Div.

Damn fine job. I'm currently experimenting with putting handles and stands
on Drinking Horns. This little experiment of yours really interests me. 
1) What are you using for a press?
2) Does the Horn snap when you're trying to flatten it?
3) I've heard that adding a bit of vinegar to the water soak helps thing along. 
4) What did you use to polish it? I use 150 Grit sand paper, stepping down to
    220 Grit for the final. Then, I use a cloth wheel on my drill press and 
    Polishing Compound. Judging from what little I've done to date, the
    horn should be fairly translucent. How thick are you using? 
5) Is there a quicker way? I do inlay. I might take a shot with horn.

Bruno vonBrunner
Woods Crafter/Merchant
An Tir
mka: Doug Brunner


From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: Delaminating horn
Date: 13 Sep 1995 09:17:42 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway

  Bruno vonBrunner<Doug Brunner <doug_brunner at hp-corvallis.om.hp.com>>
  >Damn fine job. I'm currently experimenting with putting handles and stands
  >on Drinking Horns. This little experiment of yours really interests me. 
  
  Why thank you.  Something you may find interesting, the "Buckskinning II"
  book has a pattern for a horn mug with a built-in handle.  Essentially, you
  cut the horn almost in half, leaving a 1" or so wide "Tongue"
  
     **************************************************************
     *                         *****************************/        
     *                         *
     *                         *
     *                         *
     *                         *
     *               **********
     ****************
  
  After softening it, bend the tongue back and attach it to the bottom to 
  form the handle.  Insert a wooden plug into the large end to make the 
  "bottom".
  
  Well, I thought it looked amusing :)
  
  >1) What are you using for a press?
  
  Since finding steel plates around here is a bit of trouble, until I can get
  to it, I've been using two pieces of oak, with a long bolt at each corner,
  and the occasional c-clamp for better pressure where needed.
  
  >2) Does the Horn snap when you're trying to flatten it?
  
  Sometimes.  Hopefully, the boiling in water has softened it enough though
  that it shouldn't.  The soaking for a month to delaminate it, however, will
  reveal any weak spots though.
  
  >3) I've heard that adding a bit of vinegar to the water soak helps thing
  >along. 
  
  I've heard this as a possibility, but have never been totally certain
  regarding the whole "acidic effects on horn" thing (often declared as a
  reason for not drinking acidic things from unlined horn cups).  A month ago
  I did some soaking of horn in such things as vinegar and orange juice and
  found no noticable effects on the horn.  When I performed that experiment
  I reported it here and asked if anyone had had actual personal experience
  of having their drinking horns having a bad reaction to acidic liquids,
  and have heard nothing.  I'm starting to suspect that this may be a
  "re-creation legend", but am not absolutely positive either way.
  
  (BTW, again, thanks to Balderik for reminding me that Horn is hair, and that
  acids have little effect when it comes to "de-hairing" hides)
  
  >4) What did you use to polish it? I use 150 Grit sand paper, stepping down to
  >    220 Grit for the final. Then, I use a cloth wheel on my drill press and 
  >    Polishing Compound. Judging from what little I've done to date, the
  >    horn should be fairly translucent. How thick are you using? 
  
  I'm trying to get it down to 1-2 actual layers as an ideal (and am still
  not adept at that.  When it comes to polishing horn, I use "Medium" weight 
  woodworking sandpaper, then "Fine" and "Very Fine", THEN I burnish it
  with a piece of antler.
  
  As I understand it (not having gotten that far) for the final polishing
  step of Lanthorn panes, you rub it down with wood ashes, something else,
  and using just your bare hand.
  
  >5) Is there a quicker way? I do inlay. I might take a shot with horn.
  
  Don't soak it for a month.  Just boil it for two hours or so, flatten it
  in the press and let it cool.  If it's not flat enough, stick it back
  in the press, place it in the oven at 300-325 for not more than 15-20
  minutes, take it out, tighten it down some more, and let it cool off.
  
  A variation on this seems to be: heat up your press to 350, take it out of
  the oven, put the previously flattened horn in it, tighten it has hard as
  you can get it, and let it cool.  Since I'm a little adverse to working
  with 350 degree metals and clamps (having alreadly started developing a
  lovely pattern of burn scars from being stupid doing this (Wear long
  sleaved shirts, even if it IS Oklahoma in the summer time in a hot
  kitchen)), I haven't tried this last one.  It is, I'm led to believe,
  though, the major way of making things like spoons.
  
  Oh, a note.  Another use for the delaminated horn is to back your bows
  with (should such be your inclination).
  
  --------------------------------------
  <Daveed<JkrissW <jkrissw at aol.com>>>
  >Interesting...  How thick are the flattened sections?  Thick enough to use
  >as lamellae or scales?  The ancient Scythians sometimes used horn
  >thusly...
  
  If you don't soak them for a month, they will be as thick as the horn was
  initially.  If you do, they'll start the delaminating process and will get
  as thin as you have the patience to make them.
  
  If you just flatten them, they should make very good scales.
  
  "Mihi Satis Apparet Propter     Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
    Se Ipsum Appetenda Sapientia"	University of Northkeep
   -- St. Dunstan			Northkeepshire, Ansteorra
  				(I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu)
  

From: doug_brunner at hp-corvallis.om.hp.com (Doug Brunner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: drinking horns
Date: 23 Jan 1996 20:45:06 GMT
Organization: Hewlett Packard Inkjet Comp. Div.

In article <4e2u2m$fme at terrazzo.lm.com>, mjc at telerama.lm.com (Monica Cellio) says:
>
>>Can someone please help me with info on what the material is, which is
>>used in the coating of those marvelously decorated drinking horns I
>>have seen at events? I have been told it is some kind of plastic resin,
>>and I wonder:
>
>Do you mean inside or outside?  On the inside, you can use beeswax (if
>you're not going to drink anything hot) or polyeurothene.  On the outside,
>you can polish it with jeweler's rouge, which comes in small cakes (just
>rub it in).
>
>Ellisif

    I have to break into this one, sorry. DO NOT USE POLY ON THE INSIDE OF THE HORNS!!! Sorry about the volume. Poly will break down under alcohol and heat. Mead and washing will eventually break Poly down, leaving a nasty after taste and possibly making you a bit ill.  I make horns and I use an FDA approved, Food Grade Epoxy. The manufacturer is Torginal, out of Wisconsin. It's a bit expensive ($35/half gal), but I feel that the peace of mind is worth it. The stuff is rated from 0deg to 185deg, without breaking down. It can also handle acids (Orange Juice) and bases (Scotch).  And, for the record, I also make 
coffe horns. Scalding hot coffee is about 180degF. 

    I use Auto Polishing Compound on the outside of mine, after a lot of sanding. I have a cloth buffing wheel that fits into my drill press. After I have them polished, I also seal the outside. I normally build a wooden stand into the horn. This is also coated with the Epoxy. Then, I wrap a leather grip around the middle and secure it with brass screws, into the wooden base.  One of the advantages of the epoxy is that it seals any leaks.

    Many people use the bees wax on the horns. Drawbacks? The wax will go rancid, after a bit. It also comes out if you have something warm, like mulled wine. However, they're pretty easy to deal with. Put the Horn in warm water (Hot water will soften the horn) and the wax will wash out. Then, simply recoat it. Advantages? Fairly inexpensive, compared to the epoxy. It also has a subtle, sweet flavor that I'm told adds to the wine. Unfortunately, that means that it's coming out of the horn, too. 

    But, I've really got to stress that furniture or wood coatings like Poly, Varnish and shellac are NOT suitable for food containers. And, the horn should be coated with something. The horn will hold the flavor of the last thing in it, if it's not. And, it gets to be a real bear to clean. A little too long and what
the horn has absorbed will start to turn, as well as the horn itself. 

Bruno vonBrunner
Woods Crafter/Merchant
An Tir
mka: Doug Brunner, owner
Brunner's Woods and Crafts
Lebanon, Oregon


From: doug_brunner at hp-corvallis.om.hp.com (Doug Brunner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: sealing epoxies for drinking horns - help?
Date: 8 Apr 1996 21:13:33 GMT
Organization: Hewlett Packard Inkjet Comp. Div.

Food Safe Epoxy:

Torginal, Inc.
710 Forest Ave.
Cheboygan Falls, Wi.   53085
(800) 558-7596

I also make Drinking Horns and this is what I use. If you're at Whitman in 
Washington, I believe that there's a dustributor somewhere around Vancouver, Wa. 

DB


From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.EDU (Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: Sealing epoxies for drinking horns - help?
Date: 9 Apr 1996 18:18:07 -0400
Organization: The Internet

<Cyrillis Desidarius <peterscc at whitman.edu (Chris Petersen)>
>I purchased myself a horn and polished it up all nice.  then I found out
>that any food safe epoxy is nearly impossible to find.  What are the most
>common methods of sealing horns and how would I go about getting ahold of
>some.  thanks.

After an extensive search of the historically available sources (which, I admit
are pretty sparse), the most common method of sealing drinking horns was to
take them and polish them up, clean them out, then drink out of them.
No wax, no polyurethane, no epoxy.  It's not bad for you, as far as I can
determine, outside Skaw-legends.

If you insist on sealing them, however, I would suggest a form of polyurethane
called Envirotex, or envirotex-lite.  They are reasonably easy to use, and
are food safe.

"Fides res non pecunniae,         Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
 sed temporis"                    University of Northkeep/Company of St. Jude
 -- Unknown Recreator             Northkeepshire, Ansteorra
                                  (I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu)


From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.EDU (Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: Sealing epoxies for drinking horns - help?
Date: 11 Apr 1996 13:14:59 -0400
Organization: The Internet

<gregwr at aol.com (Greg Wr)>
>I have it on good authority from Master Beowulf Gordon that it is indeed
>bad for you to drink out of unprotected horn. Master Beowulf who is a bone
>carver advised me that any time you work with bone or horn to protect
>yourself from the dust especially when sanding...

Master Gordon is most certainly correct when suggesting that you protect
yourself from breathing in bone and horn dust, or for that matter, any
other kinds of light dust, since it can do you harm.

As for the other, it is my opinion, based on study and experimentation
that this is an urban legend (one that I, myself, was caught up by not
too long ago).  It is likely prompted by the fact that when you drink
from unprotected horn, it flavors the drink (of course, so does drinking
from a can...)

People have been drinking alcohol, fruit juices, and so forth from horn
for centuries, not to mention eating with horn flatwear, etc, and have 
had no more problems caused by it than were caused by the alcohol they 
were drinking in the first place.

However, if you choose to line your horns, that *is* your business.

"Fides res non pecunniae,         Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
 sed temporis"                    University of Northkeep/Company of St. Jude
 -- Unknown Recreator             Northkeepshire, Ansteorra
                                  (I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu)


From: moireasdac at aol.com (Moireasdac)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Ink Wells and Pencases?
Date: 14 Jul 1996 18:21:31 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)

   I am a horner, if anyone really wants to know how to thread a horn, and
the proper way to prepare a horn prior to the threading etc. I will be
happy to help them out. Beware though processing a horn the first time or
two will take several hours. The next few do go quickly, after you learn
the skills. 
   A few tips though, scrap do not sand or buff the horn smooth, neither
work right or when you do get it smooth, results in the wrong looking
finish. Scap, single edge razorblades work fine if you don't have small
cabinet scrapers. For final polishing use loose grit and a scrap of
leather with water as a carrier. Work slowly and with the grain.
  For canteens, cups and inkwells and inkhorns use pitch or beeswax as a
liner, pitch is best and use except for canteens and cups softwoods unless
the period piece used hardwood.
  To insert the end plugs heat the horn in an oven at 300 degrees coat the
plug and insert it. Tamp it in tightly and drill and insert plugs (round
toothpicks work great) fill any voids with beeswax or pitch.
  If you all need to know how to tread let me know. I will tell you the
basics just be sure to use a leather washer to keep the ink in and off
your alls cloathing.
Kirk


From: Moireasdac at aol.com
To: markh at risc.sps.mot.com
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 22:11:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Ink Wells and Pencases?

Sorry I typed ahead of myself. You thread the horn and then you match the
threads to the tap and matching dies. The small holes and toothpicks go for
the bottom plug, in the case of a cup or a inkwell or powderhorn. The screw
tip is at the top the plug, for the bottom is held by pegs and sealed to
prevent leakage similar possible problems.

 If you have any more questions please let me know.

Kirk


From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.EDU (Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: Ink Wells and Pencases?
Date: 14 Jul 1996 21:17:14 -0400
Organization: The Internet

<moireasdac at aol.com (Moireasdac)>
>I am a horner, if anyone really wants to know how to thread a horn, and
>the proper way to prepare a horn prior to the treading ect. I will be
>happy to help them out....

I would be curious to hear any of your thoughts on the matter.

I *do* have a question though...

>For canteens, cups and inkwells and inkhorns use pitch or beeswax as a
>liner, pitch is best and use except for canteens and cups softwoods unless
>the period piece used hardwood.

Why?  As far as I can tell, horn drinking vessels weren't lined 
historically, and, since horn is water tight, in and of itself, there is
really no need to keep fluids from leaking through it.  I *can* see lining
seams, say, where bases are set, if you use any other method for setting
them other than the "heat and stretch" method you describe, since these
might not be a tight seal.  With your method, the horn should stretch
sufficiently that it will accept a plug slightly large than the end (when
cool), and that the horn will shrink back around the plug sealing it off.
The few occasions where horn cups I have made with such plugs haven't been
sealed properly were because of flaws in my cutting out the plug.

From the research I've done on this topic, which may not be as extensive as
yours, this thing about sealing horn drinking vessels with pitch, wax, or
even polyurethane is pretty much restricted to the SCA.

"Fides res non pecunniae,         Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
 sed temporis"                    University of Northkeep/Company of St. Jude
 -- Unknown Recreator             Northkeepshire, Ansteorra
                                  (I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu)


From: bwc at proaxis.com (Doug Brunner)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Drinking horns to be made.
Date: 2 Mar 1997 20:10:52 GMT
Organization: Brunner's Woods and Crafts

hbrtv003 at huey.csun.edu says...
>        A friend of mine had obtained a horn that she wishes to make into
>a drinking horn. However, I don't have a viking persona and haven't the
>slightest idea how to prepare a horn so that it will be safe to drink
>from. Any Ideas\advice or rude comments?  Any info would be appreciated.
>
>Miro Martalis

        I make them. Or, I gues I should say MADE them. We're closing up 
shop. Anyway**First of all, how raw is this horn? If it still has meat in it, 
you've got some work ahead of you. It needs to be cleaned. If it's already 
cleaned, on to the next step. I've worked with raw horn and the rough sanded 
stuff from Tandy. It's about the same process. I have a series of Sanding 
Drums I use on my Drill Press.  I start out fairly coarse and work my way down 
to Buffing Compound. I've found that a final sanding of 220Grit sand paper 
will take the last of the fine scratches out of the horn. More than that, 
you're wasting your time. Go straight to the buffing compound.(IMHO)I wrap 
mine with Brass, but the mouth can be left plain. Just be sure to sand it down 
to a smooth, rounded edge. Even though it's just horn, it can still leave a 
fairly respectable gash across your lip. 

        They can be decorated as you wish. If you paint something, I suggest 
using an oil based paint. Lates will peel and fade. Remember that horn is just 
a horse's fingernail. It's about the same material. 

        Here's where some of the disagreements come up. Many people use 
Varnish, Enamel or Polyurathane to coat a horn. All of these will break down 
under use. All of these are toxic to some degree. They can be used to coat the 
outside only!! For a safe horn you have to use something that's food safe. 
I've been using a special Epoxy. But, it doesn't com ein small amounts and 
it's fairly expensive. You might try some of the Hobby/Crafts shops for a food 
safe coating. Many people just use Bee's Wax. You just have to heat up the 
horn(hot water?) and clean out the wax occasionally. Then just recoat it. The 
other limiter is that you can't have a lot of hot drinks in the horn as you 
can using an epoxy. Your option. 

        Take a look at my WEB Pages. You might get a couple of ideas. And have 
fun. I've enjoyed working with horn. 

Doug B.
http://www.proaxis.com/~bwc

 
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 10:37:24 -0600
From: Cynthia Craig <craigc at mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu>
To: markh at risc.sps.mot.com (Mark S. Harris)
Subject: Re: Drinking horns to be made.

>         A friend of mine had obtained a horn that she wishes to make into
> a drinking horn. However, I don't have a viking persona and haven't the
> slightest idea how to prepare a horn so that it will be safe to drink
> from. Any Ideas\advice or rude comments?  Any info would be appreciated.

Drinking horns aren't just for Vikings any more. :)

Many of the early cultures used horns to drink from.  There are stories
and references of the Celts, Angles, Saxons, Anglo-Saxons, Germanic, and
many many more!  Drinking horns weren't just horn either, there are
vessels remaining that are wood and glass in horn shape.  If you would
like more information about drinking horns, you can email me and I will be
glad to send you a copy of my bibliography on drinking horns.

Akatyariena of the Winds


From: redjack at mindspring.com (Richard A Lewis)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Q: Horn- 'building'...?
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 22:11:19 GMT

"Ingendahl" <ingendahl at interregio.de> wrote:

>I'm a new member of SCA, and I've got a real big question:

>On our attic, there are lying since many years two horns of a
>'water-buffalo'. Unfortunately they are not _my_ horns, but my father's
>horns ;-)
>I asked him to present them to me, so that I can build two
>master-sized-drinking-horns. He told me, that the the horns are a gift of a
>friend, who died a day later (after presentening).

>Therefore, he only wants to lend me the horns, and therefore I'm afraid,
>that I don't make any mistakes in the working on the 'transformation'.

>Actually, I don't know, how to make it, and I don't know, too, if there is
>the old bone inside or not. 

>Did anybody worked such a drinking-horn before (I saw only one of this size
>several years ago) and can tell me, how to do and what problems I have to
>face?

>In Your answer, you don't have to write in easy-english, because my
>reading-english is much, much, _much_ more better than my written english.

>       FeliX                           aka Felicitas Ingendahl

Felix,

DONT use the good horns as your first project!!!!  You’ll mess them up,
guaranteed!  Find a few cheap ones to practice on first!

My drinking horn tools consist of a dremel moto tool and several home
made tools, as well as a set of needle files and lots of sand paper.

I use the moto tool with a wood carving tip (1/8th inch diam barrel
cutter, 1/4 inch long) and begin the hollowing out process with it.
be careful not to get to close to the sides of the horn or you will
cut thru.  Leave a bit thicker wall than you want, and use sand paper
to thin it out later.

I then use longer shafted carving tips to continue hollowing it out
deeper......I made them by welding standard dremel bits to steel
welding rod.  Eventually you`ll get to a point where you cant go any
deeper without cutting thru the horn as it approaches the tip, so
finish off the bottom inside in a smooth curve shape.

My most used hand tool is a weird type of knife I made myself.  It has
a blade about a inch long on a shaft of 1/4 inch steel rod....its
about 8 inches long.  The blade is round tipped and the blade is bent
into a gentle curve shape.  Using this tool, I can slowely carve the
inside of the horn.

Once I get enough room to fit my fingers in, I usually start sanding
it out with some pretty coarse paper to remove any high spots and even
the inside surface out.  Go to finer grades of paper as you get the
walls thinned.  For the deeper parts, use a stick with a rounded tip
that you have glued sandpaper to.

For the edges of the horn, use a file that is long enough to reach
completely across it and file it flat...filing two sides at one time.
Move in a circle and get the edge even, then sand paper it to a nice
round lip.

I like smooth and polished outsides, so I sand and polish the hell out
of them.

One point.....Ive never had any problems with a smell or a taste being
left in the horn once its sanded and buffed inside and out.  Ive never
had to coat them with anything, but I do soak them in a 1/4th bleach
solution over night before I ever use them for drinking.

American breeds of bovines usually seem to grow horns that are softer
and pithy on the insides.....those are the ones I use for drinking
horns.  Water buffalo and asiatic breeds of bovines in my experience
produce more solid horn.....I use those for hilts for knives and
daggers I make.

If you have access to a machine shop and are pretty good with power
tools.....

I have twice gotten creative and decided to cut the horns into 1 inch
lengths.  Just take a table saw and place the wide end of the horn
against the fence....and cut it.  I then epoxied the inch thick pieces
of horn onto wood stock and used my lathe and turned them inside and
outside.  Keeping em epoxied to the wood was a prob after they were
hollowed out, so try pressure slipping them over some wood stock of
the right diam to finish the outside.

I then bought some brass T stock at the hobby shop that was local to
me and soldered a ring of this stuff the right diam to fit the first
hollow ring of horn back onto the second length.

Hollow out each inch thick slice of horn and then fit them back
together with the brass to make a complete horn......the brass on the
outside makes nice accents.  A brass rim around the lip will make the
cup last forever.

Using the horns for drinking in past times, they usually had holes cut
into the tables to hold the horns.  Ive used deer antlers to craft
holders for them since not many ppl want to cut holes in their tables,
and they look damned good.

Whatever way you decide.....GO SLOW and take your time!!!!!  Practice
on a few cheap horns til you feel good enough to risk the valuable
ones.

Just me rambling while the pain medication takes effect  :(

Richard McLlewyn   loving husband of the most fair Lady Kris  :)


Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 21:32:39 -0500
From: Caitlin Cheannlaidir <caitlin at phosphor-ink.com>
Subject: RE: SC - cleaning horns

>>Charles McCN recommended cleaning horn out with ants<g>.

For those less patient, or who get the ones from Tandy that don't have any 
"meat" left in them but are worried about what else might be down in 
there... I've cleaned my last couple with efferdent tablets, which works 
great.  They foam like crazy and are designed to remove organic gunk.


Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 09:50:38 -0700
From: "G. Shaver" <shaverman at mindspring.com>
To: <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Re: wooden mugs

From: Norma Winter
>Can anyone tell mewhat ca be used to coat the inside of a handmade wooden
drinking mug?
>
>Sine

The period answer is Brewer's Pitch, a "black rubbery stuff" which is hard
to find, must be heated to a very high (i.e. above 212 degrees and therefore
potentially "dangerous") temperature, and will leave the inside of your mug
a lovely shade of asphalt black.  But after curing is tasteless, impervious
to boiling water, and will seal any cracks or imperfections.  This is also
the preferred sealant for leather workers who require a slightly flexible
sealant in their leather cups and bottles.  You melt the black, sticky pitch
(yes, it is not a euphomism) in a pot or can (which you will then resign to
"pitching", one way or another), pour the HOT liquid in the container, roll
it around once to coat all surfaces, and then pour back out.  Once the
leftover cools, it can be stored 'til next time.

    Several modern hi-tech alternatives are available, in the form of
acrylic resins.  I have heard people having good luck with West Systems 2
part epoxy resin, which I will swear by for it's holding power, but have
never tried to drink out of afterward.   A long curing period would be
recomended for serving ware, but once cured, such plastics tend to be inert
(read "tasteless"), and clear to allow the woodgrain inside the mug to be
appreciated.  This is the preferred (non-period) sealant for drinking horns,
as it is tough and resiliant, actually strengthening the horn itself, and is
clear to allow the transluscent quality that adds to a horn's character.

    Beeswax or oils (olive, etc) can be used, but with obvious drawbacks.
Beeswax will melt with heat.  Some mugs (esp solid carved ones) probably
whouldn't be used with hot liquids anyway- stave mugs will flex slightly and
are less likely to crack with high temperatures.  Oils will wear off, and
constant re-oiling well BEFORE usage (to allow time to soak in), is often
wearisome.  And offer no crack-sealing potential.  Likewise, seeing little
oilslicks in your coffee can be unappealing if over-oiled.  But it's period,
and quite effective, if not as long term as the first two methods.  And
works great for teak bowls, plates, and other food platters where a little
olive oil will never be noticed.

    Always hand wash your mug and other wooden items, and do not leave them
soaking, unless you view ithem as short term disposable, in which case the
dishwasher will be fine for the season or two that they last.  (And sure,
there are unexpected exceptions, but I don't like to bet on the exception,
rather than the rule.)

    YiS
        Gregoire


Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 10:17:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tena Keefe <tfk31 at yahoo.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Epoxy warning and wooden mugs

--- "G. Shaver" <shaverman at mindspring.com> wrote:
> Several modern hi-tech alternatives are available, in the form of
> acrylic resins.  I have heard people having good luck with West Systems 2
> part epoxy resin, which I will swear by for it's holding power, but have
> never tried to drink out of afterward.
>
>         Gregoire

Please please do not apply either West or East system epoxy products to
any object which will contain food or drink. The result can be very
dangerous, even after total cure. My company works with the stuff, and
we've had a few serious health scares with cured epoxy causing severe
gastro-intestinal distress.

Constance


From: gunnora at my-deja.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Antlers, horns etc...
Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 22:49:45 GMT

Master Atar <jhrisoulas at aol.com> wrote:
> Horn being one.  This stuff was the "medieval man's plastic" as it
> was moldable to an extent using either heat or reagents (or both) and
> made great spoons and combs (Note:.for many, many years
> pharmicological spoons used in compounding were made from horn as it
> was pretty much "non stick").

For those who want more help with horn, in period a craftsman called a
horner actually took the nasty dead cow parts, cut them, heated them,
and flattened them into plates that other craftsmen then used.

There is still one of the medieval horners in operation.  I have a
contact who can get the finished plates for you, including lanthorn
(thin white horn suitable for making window coverings or lanters).

::GUNNORA::


From: gunnora at my-deja.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Antlers, horns etc...
Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 22:55:48 GMT

tigranes at epix.net wrote:
> Judging from the types of animals originally mentioned, I'd guess you
> probably have all antlers.  Antler is great for knife handles,
> buttons and such, but I don't think it would be suitable for spoons.

Depends on the antler, and on the spoon.  I've found scholarly articles
on both Anglo-Saxon and Viking antler spoons, specifically red deer.

Two articles that I happen to have the citations for handy include:

Bertelson, Reidar. "Decorated spoons of reindeer antler in Norwegian
urban and rural context." Archaeology and the Urban Economy:
Festschrift toAsbjorn E. Herteig. Arkeologiske Skrifter 5. eds. Siri
Myrvold et al. Bergen: Historisk Museum Universitet i Bergen. 1989. pp.
245-254.

Hiruluoto, Anna-Liisa. "A bone spoon from Pirkkala." Iskos 9 (1990)
pp.87-91.

::GUNNORA::

Gunnora Hallakarva, OL


From: gunnora at my-deja.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Horn Sources
Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 23:01:33 GMT

"Mariann" <mariann at uwm.edu> wrote:
> I am looking for either ram's horn or water buffalo horn about 15
> inches long.  Does anyone know of a good source for this material?

Someone suggested using a shofar -- I have to note that if it is being
sold as a musical instrument, it will cost a LOT more than the raw
material.

The best place to go for sundry dead animal parts is:

Moscow Hide and Fur
http://www.hideandfur.com

Specifically, you can find antler and horn at:
http://www.hideandfur.com/inventory/Antlers.html

::GUNNORA::


Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 10:01:27 MST
From: Darius and Monica <dmmerlick at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: ANST - horns
To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org

STDRLC13 wrote:
> Does anybody know where I can get cow  horns, preferably already
> de-gunked but not sanded,  to carve?  My source dried up and I really
> really need at least three more medium sized horns to finish the carving
> projects that I've got "on the board"  right now. -Isabeau de Merricoeur

I have recieved some pretty good raw materiials for this type of work
from "Moscow Hide and Fur" in Moscow, Idaho. their web page is
http://www.hideandfur.com/

HL Darius of the Bells


Subject: ANST - Re: ansteorra V2 #99
Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 11:03:50 MST
From: gunnora at realtime.net
To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org (ansteorra)

> Does anybody know where I can get cow horns, preferably
> already de-gunked but not sanded, to carve

Aside from Tandy, try Moscow Dead Animal Bits (http://www.hideandfur.com)
--
they reliably have horn and antler in various grades.

::GUNNORA::


Subject: RE: ANST - horns
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 01:16:23 MST
From: "Connie Carroll" <Connie.Bunny at worldnet.att.net>
To: "Mark.S Harris (rsve60)" <rsve60 at email.sps.mot.com>

Hello, here are the URLs I had on the subject.

Kassandra

All I can say about this article is wow!!!! Everything you would want to know about working bone or horn in one place in an easy to read and follow article with sources listed at the end!!!! I only wish there were more resources like this on the net.  Even if you have no desire to work horn or bone yourself this is a very informative article that will give you an idea of how horn was used and worked in period.

Arundel's site http://www.dnaco.net/~arundel
Michael Labbe-Webb's Horn/Bone Article
http://www.dnaco.net/~arundel/bone_pamplet4.htm

Arundels website as a whole is a veritable treasure trove of information and links to other sites.  Be sure to check it out if you haven't done so before.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.hideandfur.com/inventory/2213.html

this one has "lots" of different kinds and sizes of horns..not limited to cows/

Claw, Antler and Hide Company - (605) 673-4345
http://www.solarwinds.com/antlers

has wholesale antlers
Http://www.txlonghorns.com/

Rough horns, Unpolished
8" to 14"  $8.00/pr
15" to 20" $15.00/pr
20" to 28" $39.00/pr
28" to 35" $72.00/pr
$7.50 S&H/pr
Item #22

http://www.kyleatherandhide.com/acces.html
Our Cow horns are unfinished and  different sizes.
$5.00 ea.

http://home.att.net/~thepowdermag/home.htm#0
Cow horns large $12 each.


Subject: Re: BG - HORNS!
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 14:43:07 MST
From: RowenaBBG at aol.com
To: bryn-gwlad at ansteorra.org

Try one of these web pages.
http://www.einsteins-emporium.com/life/hides/lh000.htm
http://www.hideandfur.com/

Look for the sections on horns.

Rowena


To: Norsefolk at egroups.com
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 18:18:49 -0000
From: gunnora at realtime.net
Subject: Re: working with horn

> i want to make a new helm and use horn(over metal) in the plate 
> areas. ive seen a little about working horn ...
> but nothing about how long to boil the horn(to make it workable) 
> or how long to press it before it takes its new shape.

Hálvgrím, 

First off, horn over metal is going to react pretty much like plastic 
plates over metal would -- be prepared to replace them often as they 
will crack.  You'll be putting them between an anvil (the helm) and a 
hammer (the sword).

I suggest looking at:

Arthur MacGregor. Bone, Antler, Ivory & Horn: the Technology of 
Skeletal Materials Since the Roman Period. Totowa: Barnes & Noble. 
1985. ISBN 0-389-20531-1 (out of print) 

I quote a bit of the horn-working notes from MacGregor in a short 
discussion of making horn spoons, available in Stefan's Florilegium 
at http://www.florilegium.org/files/CRAFTS/Horn-Spoons-art.html

In theory you don't boil horn.  You soak it, and sometimes boil it 
briefly as a pretreatment. Then to shape it you use heating over an 
open flame, or pressing between hot plates.  Horn, as you will 
recall, is like hair structurally (and smells like it too, when you 
burn it, yech!)  And for the same reasons that curling irons work on 
hair heat reshapes horn.

I have boiled small horn plates for making spoons, since this is 
easier to control and less likely to scorch.  It takes a *lot* longer 
than you think (three hours on the average for a spoon), while 
working over open heat is a lot quicker and gets better results after 
a little practice.

As for "how long to press", as soon as the stuff cools down it's set.

This isn't an exact art, either.  How thick is the horn (thicker 
pieces being harder to shape than very thin ones)?  What color (white 
is often softer/more flexible)?  What species (cow horn being softer 
than buffalo or water oxen)?  etc.  

Melanie Wilson had access to one of the last surviving medieval 
horners and could get pre-flattened plates of horn, which I'd tend to 
think would make your job somewhat easier.  You might want to talk to 
her about it...

::GUNNORA::


To: Norsefolk at egroups.com
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 12:29:37 -0600
From: jorunn at swbell.net
Subject: Re: working with horn

There's some info on Stephens' Florilegium at 
http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/rialto/horn-msg.html

A whole bunch of stuff at I. Marc Carlson's site at
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/5923/horn/hornhome.html

More stuff at
http://www.dnaco.net/~arundel/bone_pamplet4.htm

There's enough info on these sites to give you a good idea of where to
start.

Jorunn


From: sherman t tank <itchyfetish at yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Trolling for information
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 13:13:29 +1100

Heather Senkler wrote:
> How many ways are there to finish a drinking horn?
>
> I have received two horns, hollowed, sanded, and in need of finishing.
> Tips or suggestions on how to make them drinkable, and for affixing
> fittings and decorations would be very appreciated.
>
> (I have heard of beeswax and food-grade shellac? But not how to use them.)
>
>         Ekatarina, in An Tir

for polishing a horn:
take a smooth glass object, a glass will do, and grip the horn well, rub the
glass on the horn in strokes running with the grain, this will polishit ot a
mirror finish, and no further compounds are required.
of course lining the inside with bees wax is a good idea, itll stop a lot of
sore throats.

Glenn


From: mikea at mikea.ath.cx (Mike Andrews)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Horns?
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 18:28:35 +0000 (UTC)

Robert Uhl <ruhlNO at spam4dv.net> wrote:
> Anyone have a good source for unfinished (but cored &c.) horns?  I recall
> getting one at Estrella for $5 a few years back; hopefully rates haven't
> changed _too_ much.

Moscow Hide & Fur, Moscow, IDaho, 

In particular, <http://www.hideandfur.com/inventory/2213.html>.
-- 
Mike Andrews		/	Michael Fenwick 	Barony of Namron, Ansteorra
mikea at mikea.ath.cx	/	Amateur Extra radio operator W5EGO
Tired old music Laurel; webBastard; SCAdian since AS VIII


Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 15:47:48 -0700
From: Susan Fox <selene at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Drinking horns for kids
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On 9/22/06 3:35 PM, "Ana Valdes" <agora158 at gmail.com> wrote:
> In Sweden, where the Vikings hold wild feasts with mead and salt fish,
> kids do their horns today with cow or bullhorns, when playing "live".
> It should be possible to buy them in a slaughterhouse, I assume they
> are sold as "left overs".
> Ana
>
> And the kids can polish them with toothpaste, easy to do and very  
> fun.

And a tooth brush?  Or some other tool?

I find cattle horns regularly at Tandy Leather/Leather Factor, but their
personnel do not often have any idea what to do with them.  I tend to clean
them vigorously with soap and water and a bottle brush, let them dry
thoroughly and then seal them with EnviroTex, a two-part resin used for bar
tops and other food-safe surfaces.

Selene


Date: Thu, 02 Nov 2006 08:58:08 -0800
From: Susan Fox <selene at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sausage Stuffers
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

However, the only point I can see is that one does not always necessarily know what chemicals have been used on a horn of unknown provenance.  Nor is it
easy to sterilize the horn afterwards to modern standards, since horn
softens in boiling hot water as we all know.

I really love the idea of using period implements as much as possible
and a horn looks SO much better than a mere plastic funnel.  If you have
a good horn that you wish to use again for this purpose, I might gently
advise a dip in Enviro-Tex, an excellent two-part resin product, tough
enough for bar tops and clean enough to eat off of.  

Selene


Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2000 21:37:48 -0000
From: "Melanie Wilson" <MelanieWilson at bigfoot.com>
To: "LIST Sca Arts" <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Cc: "LIST Field to Feast" <field-to-feast at egroups.com>,
        "LIST Encampments" <MedievalEncampments at onelist.com>
Subject: Horn

Interesting way of working I came across, turn a pointy horn type shape 
in wood, heat your horn and slide it onto the former, this can be used 
for cups eg with hollow ends or full horns for bottles etc.

The base is then put in by creating a groove on the base inside, Turning 
a base to the correct diameter, heating the horn 'tube' putting base in 
then cooling makes a firm fit. Not tried yet myself, but I have made 
bottles, boxes & cups from raw horn similarly (but without the former) 
and it is useful stuff.

Mel


Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 15:05:04 -0500
From: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Horn

I have a couple of old grease horns in my collection.
One is octagonal, one is just plain horned shape.
Both have hooks made of sheet metal riveted on with copper rivets.
They used to hang on the back of the scytheman's belt. They were filled
with grease and sand for sharpening scythes. The grease is long gone
now.

The octagonal one is very straight in it's sides.
Actually, it is basically rectangular with mitered corners, so
it's amazing just how much shaping the horn can take using the below
method. The octagonal one has a matching whetstone of similar shape.
Pretty cool actually.

Magnus

> Melanie Wilson wrote:
> Interesting way of working I came across, turn a pointy horn type
> shape in wood, heat your horn and slide it onto the former, this can
> be used for cups eg with hollow ends or full horns for bottles etc.
> 
> The base is then put in bu creating a groove on the base inside,
> Turning a base to the correct diameter, heating the horn 'tube'
> putting base in then cooling makes a firm fit. Not tried yet myself,
> but I have made bottles, boxes & cups from raw horn similarly (but
> without the former) and it is usedful stuff.
> 
> Mel


Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 07:31:26 -0400
From: mmagnusol <mmagnusol at nc.rr.com>
Subject: [SCA-AS] Penn State Industries Library of Downloadable
	Instruction	Sheets
To: - Historic-HornAntlerBone
	<Historic-HornAntlerBone at yahoogroups.com>, 	- Medieval Sawdust
	<medievalsawdust at yahoogroups.com>,	"-
	MedievalEncampments at yahoogroups.com"
	<MedievalEncampments at yahoogroups.com>, 	- SCA-ARTS
	<artssciences at lists.gallowglass.org>

http://www.pennstateind.com/library.php

Amongst other things you might notice turning Buffalo
and Antler.  For example inkwells that accompanied
penners [cases for pens] were often made of horn.  I have
some thick goat horn I set aside for the project myself.
Be the first on your block to smell worse than a goat.
Skeletal materials are often quite smelly and the dust is
uncommonly fine when compared with regular wood dust.
Best done outside with a fan blowing the dust downwind
and away. 

Magnus


Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 15:41:12 +1200 (NZST)
From: "Zane R. V. Bruce" <zane at paradise.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] Cow horns
To: "The Shambles, the SCA Lochac mailing list" <lochac at sca.org.au>

Alys Dietsch wrote:
<<< I've just come into posession of a couple of highland cattle horns, sawn
straight of the beast. (and a hide and 150 kilos of beef and six broken
fences, but that's another story)
Anyone got any ideas how to turn them into drinking horns? >>>

Get a large receptacle that you can seal, and that will fit the horns in. 
Fill it with a mixture of water and wood ash (to create a moderately
alkaline solution), and submerge the horns in that for a week or several. 
Check them occasionally to see if the cores have loosened.  Once they
have, they should slip out with a moderate level of leverage/shaking.  Use
gloves, Mind the splatters, it will smell bad.  You can just rot them out,
but that smells worse than soaking them out with the alkali ash mixture
(which is also rotting, but chemically rather than bacterially)

Then it's mostly a matter of cleaning, scraping, sanding and polishing,
cutting the mouth to shape and mounting any metal fittings, and/or lining
the inside with a waterproofing agent should you not like your beverage
coming into contact with horn that you've soaked in alkali for a few
weeks.

How long are they?  The longer they are, and the more curl to them, the
more difficult it will be to get the horn cores out.  (Also, the longer
they are, the better they would be used for horn backed bows rather than
drinking horns, but that's just me.)

Iarnulfr.


Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 21:22:51 -0700
From: "Beth&Rick Phillips" <bsw_p at premier1.net>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] Cow horns
To: <zane at paradise.gen.nz>,	"The Shambles,the SCA Lochac mailing list"
	<lochac at sca.org.au>

Once you have cleaned the interior of the horn you may wish to sand the 
outer surface. Either sand or sandpaper works well. Be sure the lip to be 
covered is thick enough to take the rim (silver usually). This makes the 
surface suitable for carving, painting, staining or other decoration.  Once 
you have the exterior decorated and sealed you may want to treat the 
interior with bees wax. Melted and coated on the interior it makes a nice 
finish. Be sure to repeat the application if you drink beer, wine or acidic 
liquids (lemonade).   Also be careful to keep the temperature moderate as 
too hot a liquid will remelt the wax.

There are a number of different sealants that will be food and drink safe 
though there aren't any currently available that are "in period" that I know 
of personally.  As a confirmed hot tea drinker I'm willing to forgo the 
authenticity for my favorite morning caffeine.

About ten years ago the "horn" was very popular here though I haven't seen 
many in the last five years.  Some of the designs were beautiful artwork, 
usually in the Celtic style but dragons were quite popular too.

If you like I will see what research has been kept on the process of 
decorating.

Lady Louisa Ralston


Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 19:09:12 +1200
From: Bob Bain <bob.bain at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] Cow horns
To: <lochac at sca.org.au>

Hi, Alys

Here's the benefit of the wisdom gained by doing 100 of them for a canterbury fair long ago.

Whatever you do, do it outside. Horn stinks

To remove the core boil the horn for 30 minutes or so. The gelatinous layer between the horn and the bone will shrink and the bone will probably pop out, you may need to help it along by putting a corkscrew into the bone and yanking it. Do this on the barbie. It pongs.

There will be a thin layer of icky stuff left on the inside of the horn. This need to be removed. If you want a period method you'd want to scrape it out. I used a copper bottle brush on an electric drill cos I was doing so many. Once it is scrupulously clean inside it's basically fit to drink out of but will taint anything you put in it with a horny taste. (yuck) Thus it needs to be lined. In period this could be done by filling it with melted beeswax or brewers pitch and pouring it out. Very simple, but it will need to be done again once in a while and you can't drink hot drinks out of it. (though why you would I don't know) A modern alternative is to find a foodsafe polyurathane which will give a virtually permanent seal, plus you can get some varieties that will cope with hot drinks. Personally though beeswax is a nice smelling, nice tasting period seal so go with that unless you really want to drink coffee.

To do the outsides. I use a very large, very heavy, very sharp knife to remove any large rough spots, running from base to tip, never the other way.

I then use sand paper, preferably on an orbital sander but you may wish to use elbow grease. I start at 100 grit then 180 on the sander, then 220 and 320 by hand, running with the grain. Don't skimp on the sanding, if you change to a smaller grit too soon all you'll do is highlight the marks you missed. To finish you could use a buffing wheel and some sort of buffing compound, I've used toothpaste in the past.

Some folks polyurathane the outside to keep the finish but there is nothing like the rich glow you can get from bare horn. I wouldn't do it to a beautiful piece, though I might to my knock-around camping horn.

Fittings and decoration are a different story again. Horn can be scrimshawn, rub lamp black into your pattern to highlight it. The tip can also be carved as its solid for the first inch or two. You may wish to make metal fittings for them but that's beyond my sphere.

Callum


Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 05:33:59 +1000
From: "Bruce S. R. Lee" <bsrlee2 at pacific.net.au>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] Cow horns
To: "The Shambles, the SCA Lochac mailing list" <lochac at sca.org.au>

Depending on the condition of the outside of the horns, you may find 
a 'cabinet scraper' of use in smoothing - you can buy them from some 
'old fashioned' hardware stores, or make one from a broken hacksaw 
blade - its just basically a card of hard steel with the edges at a 
sharp 90 degrees. If you have a few old hacksaw blades, you could 
also make one into a filleting knife like tool for helping to remove 
the horn cores.

Brusi of Orkney

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