coopering-msg – 5/26/11 Making and maintaining wooden barrels, casks and kegs. Period barrels, casks and kegs. Sources. NOTE: See also the files: wood-bending-msg, wood-msg, tools-msg, woodworking-msg, commerce-msg, wine-msg, beer-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: corliss at hal.PHysics.wayne.EDU (David J. Corliss) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Kegs Date: 31 May 1994 14:18:47 -0400 (....OK, now you've pushed one of my buttons, and I just have to respond....) hedonisim at aol.com writes: > Last thing I want at an event is (a) beer keg out in the middle of our > Medievel campsite; keep it in back where we all can't see it. Beer kegs?? What's wrong with beer kegs?? Just get some white oak, a little green, and cut planks about two inches wide and half an inch thick. Miter the ends to a 45 degree angle. Plane the sides of each plank to give a small angle to each. Arange the planks around copper hoops so they fit together. Check the fit of each joint so it is tight; fine tune the fit with a plane where necesary (Far easier said than done: using a jig to plane the planks the same helps and practice makes perfect). Cut the last plank so that it is just a bit too big to fit and pound it in with a mallet: the copper will stretch and tightly close the keg all around. (Do _not_ try this with _steel_ hoops, like modern barrels. Modern barrels are made by machine: their staves are identical and, so, interchangable. Hand made staves will not work with (essentially) non-stretching steel hoops.) Make boards for the ends, chamfer the edges to fit the ends of the staves, and nail on the bottom. Remember never to fill a dry barrel with anything you want to store: fill it with water first. This will make the wood swell and close tiny gaps. A barrel may leak a little at first but soon become sound, if the only gaps are very small ones. Empty the keg, fill with beer, and nail down the lid. Some people like to do this with beech instead of white oak, as it imparts a slight flavor to the beer that they prefer. I like strong tasting beers, so the mild quality of beech does not come through. It works best for pilsners. _Never_ use _Red_ oak: it is naturally porous and will always leak. Why don't more people do this?? It is a lttle tricky and takes practice, but so is making good chests and musical instruments. Beorthwine of Grafham Wood From: "David R.Watson" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Oak Barrel Date: 29 Sep 1995 14:40:36 GMT Organization: New World Arbalest Regarding your oak barrel. Cooperage (the art of making stave-built vessels) has two large divisions, wet and dry coopering. Wet coopering is for holding liquids. Wet coopered containers should never leak very much, even when they've been left empty for some time. Of course a really old barrel might have deteriorated, or the wood shrunk substantially. Most of the cooperage you see for sale today is dry cooperage, it's sort of the period cardboard box. It is designed to hold goods, keep out the rats and the rain, but will not hold water at all. You may have a dry-coopered barrel. The joints just don't fit as tightly. Some dry-coopered pieces are sold with a waterproof coating: anything from wax through tar, to epoxy. They'll hold water fine, if you can live with strange taste of the beverage, flakex of wax, or what have you. Iolo crossbow at moontower.com Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: rmcateer at chat.carleton.ca (Richard McAteer) Subject: Re: Oak Barrel Organization: Carleton University Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 19:07:11 GMT I have to say that I have been brewing for a while, and do not fear, my barrels leak when they have been sitting for a while. Contrary to the previous post on wet / dry barrels, a wet barrel will leak quite a bit when dry. It takes about 4 days to a week to swell my 15 gallon barrel up to tightness, but then I can actually carbonate a beer in it. I brewed a fifteen gallon batch of dark ale last year for one of the local events. Your barrel is small enough to leave on its side in a bathtub for several days, filled with water. That is how I would swell it. Richard McAteer | "This is grain, which any fool can eat but for Carleton University | which the Lord intended a more divine means of Zymurgist | consumption. Let us give praise to our maker Math / Philosophy | and glory to his bounty by learning about SCAdian (Caldrithig) | ... beer" - Friar Tuck, (RHPoT) Email address: rmcateer at chat.carleton.ca ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: scott_mills at hp-loveland-om10.om.hp.com (Scott Mills) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Oak Barrel Date: 3 Oct 1995 16:31:32 GMT Organization: Hewlett-Packard Co., Loveland, CO In article <812399447snz at vonkopke.demon.co.uk>, Garick at vonkopke.demon.co.uk says... > >Thanks folks. After considerable swelling, the barrel is now water tight. >Now to the important question, with what shall I fill it? >-- >Viscount Sir Garick von Kopke If your cask is watertight now almost anything will do. Beer, Mead, Wine, you name it. I would suggest you fill it with whatever you and your household are most likely to drink and you can find in good supply. Before putting anything in your cask make sure it is good and clean. Go to your local homebrew store and buy a substance called BarroKleen and let it set for a while full of this stuff. After sitting for a while with the Barroclean, empty about three-quarters of the cleaning solution out and drop in a handfull of nuts, bolts, and other assorted small hardware. Then put in the bung and pick the thing up and shake it until your arms give out. You don't know what was in that cask last time it was used or what type of gunk might be adhering to the inside. After cleaning with the Barroclean you might want to use a a sanitizing solution such as TSP or some other Idophor cleaner to satitize since it has been sitting for a long while. After all this rinse it a couple of times and you are ready to go. Once you have you cask in a usable condition NEVER leave it empty. Always keep it full of water with a little citric acid in it. The water will keep the cask in good shape and the citric acid will inhibit the growth of any unwanted microbes. It is real hard to wear out a cask if it is properly stored and kept wet. As for contents... Well, since essentially everything in period would have been stored in casks tale your pick. It depends entirely on what you enjpy drinking. An old caks might not impart much oak flavor to the brew so that is good. European oak really doesn't lend "oak" character in the way that american oak does. The India Pale Ale style of beer in known for its oakey qualities becuase it was stored for a long time in casks as it made its voyage from Britain to India so that might be a good place to start Whatever ya do.. Relax, Don't Worry. Eadric Anstapa Brewer and Drinker ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Scott Mills Scott_Mills at hp-loveland-om10.om.hp.com 970-635-1075 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Kel Rekuta Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Oak Barrel Date: 11 Oct 1995 00:01:28 GMT Organization: HookUp Communication Corporation, Oakville, Ontario, CANADA > In article <44roh5$esf at hplvec.lvld.hp.com>, > Scott Mills wrote: > > >such as TSP or some other Idophor cleaner to satitize since it has been > > Last I heard, Tri-Sodium Phosphate was corrosive. I don't know if it > would kill you to drink it, but I am sure it wouldn't be very tasty. > > Akimoya > Sorry my boyo, but I won't be able to clean all my beer bottles you're so fond of if it weren't for TSP. It rinses off very nicely, thank you. Much more effective to clean and rinse off glass that household soap. I also use a food grade Iodophor solution to sterilize plastic beer bottles and caps before use. Quick contact with the bottle and rinse with cold water. Works like a charm. Ceallach From: 75767.1464 at compuserve.com (J Klessig) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Oak Barrel Date: Tue, 10 Oct 1995 16:56:51 GMT Organization: CompuServe Incorporated "David R.Watson" wrote: >Regarding your oak barrel. Cooperage (the art of making stave-built >vessels) has two large divisions, wet and dry coopering. Wet coopering I believe the more common standard divisions are; Dry loose (such as nail kegs) { WIll never hold water} Dry tight (flour barrels) {Might hold water} White (mostly open coopering for dairy use) {will hold water} wet {should never be used for water if something better is available} >is for holding liquids. Wet coopered containers should never leak very >much, even when they've been left empty for some time. This is unfortunately untrue I have had barrels that were originally water tight (after some initial soaking) fail to retighten after they had been let go dry. The leaks were minor, but not inconsequential Jim Klessig, ETI Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: cs911275 at ariel.cs.yorku.ca (MICHAEL A MACDONALD) Subject: Re: Oak Barrel Organization: York University, Dept. of Computer Science Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 03:36:33 GMT For those who want to clean wooden barrels I strongly advise against using TSP as it is A) Very caustic, and B) residue is not health. I reccomend using Potassium Meta-BiSulphate which is very effective at sterilization and trace amounts will not harm you. I am a vinter and brewer and have used it for some time. It is also commonly refered to as a Sulphite solution or a sulphur dioxide solution. It is available from most reputable home brewing/vinting shops such as WineArt. Cheers, -Mike MacDonald From: Kel Rekuta Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Oak Barrel Date: 13 Oct 1995 01:59:52 GMT Organization: HookUp Communication Corporation, Oakville, Ontario, CANADA > > Quoting KelRekuta > >> >such as TSP or some other Idophor cleaner to satitize since it has > >been > > >> Last I heard, Tri-Sodium Phosphate was corrosive. I don't know if it > >> would kill you to drink it, but I am sure it wouldn't be very tasty. > >> > >> Akimoya > >> > >Sorry my boyo, but I won't be able to clean all my beer bottles you're > >so fond of if it weren't for TSP. It rinses off very nicely, thank you. > > From GLASS. The discussion was on the care and feeding of wooden barrels. > Would you really use TSP on the insides of beer barrels? > > Carolyn Boselli, Host of Custom Forum 35, SCAdians on Delphi > I guess I missed part of the post. I would never use TSP on wood. I agree it would stay with the fibre. A brewing text from the early twenties describes the industry procedure for sterilizing barrels. As barrels were lined with pitch then, a blow torch was liberally applied to the interior, by trained craftsmen, or by patented mechanical devices The heat killed everything. The interior was then repitched. I'm certain some manner of flaming sterilization was performed by medieval brewers' coopers, so that barrels could be recycled. Pitch waxes were common enough. I am not enough of an authenticity mavin to stick my arm in a barrel with a blow torch. Nor am I willing to light a fire in one to sterilize it. I'll stick to modern caustic cleaners and idophor solutions even if I use a barrel to condition a batch of beer in the future. YMMV Ceallach From: scott_mills at hp-loveland-om10.om.hp.com (Scott Mills) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Oak Barrel Date: 17 Oct 1995 21:50:17 GMT Organization: Hewlett-Packard Co., Loveland, CO In article <45d58u$fi5 at mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA>, millsbn at mcmail.cis.McMaster.CAè says... > >In article <44roh5$esf at hplvec.lvld.hp.com>, >Scott Mills wrote: > >>such as TSP or some other Idophor cleaner to satitize since it has been > >Last I heard, Tri-Sodium Phosphate was corrosive. I don't know if it >would kill you to drink it, but I am sure it wouldn't be very tasty. > >Akimoya I'll agree with you. Unfortunately my fingers where typing faster than my brain was thinking. I definately don't and wouldn't use TSP on a wooden containers. I doubt any small residue left behind would be dangerous but it probably would leave a real nasty taste. I food grade Idophor will work just fine for sterilizing the barrels. It will wash clean, decays quickly, is not harmful, and wont leave an aftertaste. This idophor is not very far removed from the iodine tablets that you buy in camping stores to drop into your canteen to sterilize water in wilderness/survual situations. For cleaning the barrel use barroklean and relax -- dont' worry. In period times they did't know about microbes so they never sterilzed barrels. They did know what certain barrels could develop some property that could coause beer to go bad (obviously some contamination). At the same time they observed that certain wooden fermentors produces a better beer and those obviously contained some favorable microbes. A post period but more traditional way to sterilize barrels that was used until a few decades ago and might still be used in europe where real cask ale is available was to steam clean them. A steam line was connected to one bung hole and the other left open and they just pumped steam through them for a while. I have heard people argue that when some barrels where coated with brewers pitch and the brewers pitch was set on fire that is was to sterilize the barrels. However, I find that pretty unlikely since one end of the barel was open when this happened and then the barrel was sealed and let sit for a while before it was used it would surely become contaminated again. As far as I can tell the pitch was just to seal the barrel. Have Fun, Eadric -- Scott Mills Scott_Mills at hp-loveland-om10.om.hp.com 970-635-1075 From: brettwi at ix.netcom.com(Brett Williams) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Coopering? Date: 4 Apr 1996 15:59:43 GMT Organization: Netcom In <4jvpuv$kl at mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA> millsbn at mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA (Bruce Mills) writes: > >Has anyone tried their hand at coopering? I've tried mostly in vain >to find 5 gallon wooden kegs in which to put my beer (and other >stuffs); the only ones I can find are American Oak (which I hear tell >imparts a bitter flavour due to the tannin) and _they_ cost $80 a >piece. > >How hard is coopering, and do you have to use metal hoops to hold the >barrels together - I can't see myself setting up a forge just to put >the hoops on. Please bear in mind that I have ten thumbs, all on the >left hand, and no brains. > >Many thanks, >Akimoya >Ealdormere I've watched it being done in person and seen a cooper at work on film, too (remember the Cornish actor shouting "DENNIS!! in the beginning of "Jabberwocky"? hehheh). While this by no means makes me an expert of any sort, my understanding of the process is this: A cooper is a highly skilled individual. The wooden staves of the barrel to be have to be shaped and shaved to fit together within their proposed circumference. The cooper then heats the hoops over his small forge (!) to expand the metal slightly, then places them one at a time over the assembled staves and quenches the metal. It just occurred to me-- does that mean coopers' hoops are the period version of shrink wrap? The hoops and barrel bottom in combination hold the barrel together. If you used rope to hold the staves in place I would think that the barrel would be less rigid a form than one hooped in metal-- but then, cutting a groove in the exterior to hold the rope and winching it into a proper tension with some kind of device...hrm. I think barrel assembly is easier to do with four hands than two. I would suspect that as with most folk learning a new skill, experience will teach both efficiency and proficiency. ciorstan From: pyotr at coho.halcyon.com (Pyotr Filipivich) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Coopering? Date: 4 Apr 1996 19:18:19 GMT Organization: Northwest Nexus Inc. millsbn at mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA (Bruce Mills) writes: }Has anyone tried their hand at coopering? I've tried mostly in vain to }find 5 gallon wooden kegs in which to put my beer (and other stuffs); the }only ones I can find are American Oak (which I hear tell imparts a bitter }flavour due to the tannin) and _they_ cost $80 a piece. }How hard is coopering, and do you have to use metal hoops to hold the }barrels together - I can't see myself setting up a forge just to put the }hoops on. Please bear in mind that I have ten thumbs, all on the left }hand, and no brains. Oy - that must make typing hard :-) Coopering is not all that 'difficult' it is just fussy. The making of water(beer) tight ones more so, but you do have the advantage that a keg will swell a bit from the moisture. Non-metalic hoops are possible, and probably period as well, :-) wooden splits got used, and I'm sure that fabric and rope were used on occasion, although subject to serious deterioration (rot). Just keep in mind that there were all manner of specialized tools developed for the trade. As for the 'doing' all you need are drawknives and the occasional 'spokeshave'. Take your staves (the boards) and us the drawknive to taper the wide sides at the end (this will make it easier to 'bend' them together.) and shape the boards so that they're wider in the middle than at the ends. See Fig 1. Now simply use either the drawknife again or the spokeshave to bevel the edges the same amount so that when your staves are placed in a circle the middles all mate up flush. band at the middle, and then bring the open ends together until they meet, and put a band on. Oh yes, when you are closeing the ends, trap the head boards in the groove you made on the insides of the staves for this purpose. It is important to do this before banding, as it is harder to do afterwards. Warning - bad ascii art coming up! Okay Fig 1: A very Short (too short) barrel stave _ / \ this taper depends on the thickness of the material, / \ the rigidity of the material (plastic barrels are so | | thin because the material is so flexible :-) ) \ / In fact, you could just eliminate the taper but then \_/ you wouldn't have a traditional keg. Fig two: a a six staved barrel from the top (sort of) [From the side it looks like one of those maps of the world where the sections touch a the equator, but diverge the farther north you go] Top Side view: _ / \ /\/\/\/\/\/\ Band second | | | | | | | | | Band first \_/ \/\/\/\/\/\/ Band Third I just had a thought, if you use maple for your staves, it might impart a slight syrupy taste to your brew. Probably not enough to notice. In general, don't use 'exotic' woods for your barrel, some are toxic. Just don't store pickles or saurkraut in the barrel if you intend to use it for drinkables. Might not hurt the brew, but it will mangle the taste. (I've heard of attempts to use plastic pickle buckets for brewing. Dill pickle beer is not an award winner.) -- pyotr at halcyon.com Pyotr Filipivich, amongst others. From: brgarwood at aol.com (BRgarwood) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Coopering? Date: 4 Apr 1996 18:35:38 -0500 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) In article <4jvpuv$kl at mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA>, millsbn at mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA (Bruce Mills) writes: >How hard is coopering, and do you have to use metal hoops to hold the >barrels together - I can't see myself setting up a forge just to put the >hoops on. Please bear in mind that I have ten thumbs, all on the left My great Grandfather (1836-1919) was a cooper, and we have some of his tools, but don't know how to use them. Particularly interesting are the planes, which look something like a regular wood plane but with a curved base, and some with a guide with about a 15" radius. Some of his wooden hoops survive as well. The key to successful barrel making is that the edges of the individual boards have to be precicely mitred so they meet with the next board when the barrel is properly barrel-shaped. The hoops can be either metal or wood, but you will definitely need some sort of rigid hoop to hold it all together. The barel staves are shaped and fitted together, the hoops forced on from each end, then the barrel filled with liquid so the staves swell to make a tight seal. Berwyn Lord Berwyn AEthelbryght of Ackley, Rudivale shire, Northshield, Midrealm BRgarwood at aol.com Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: khs7e at Virginia.EDU (Kailo Heinz Schlegel) Subject: Re: barrels Organization: University of Virginia Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 22:56:31 GMT From what I have read, barrels a few centuries ago were often longer and more cylindrical (numerous exceptions, of course) than they are today. Exactly why they chose to alter it, I don't know, but I can list some advantages to the more rounded bulgy shape: less wood is needed to hold the same volume of liquid; it resembles a sphere a bit more. The barrel is considerably stronger if made of curved pieces of wood compared to straight (for the same reason that a geodosic dome is stronger than a straight walled building) If the wood gets loose and you have a leak you can take a hammer and pound the hoops, which provide the pressure to make the seal, closer to the middle, thus tightening the barrel easily. This is a CRITICAL feature. The bulging sides mean that the barrel is resting on a single point; ease of handling is improved greatly because not only can you roll the barrel forward or back, you can swivel it around to change direction. In addition, you can move the barrel without rolling it at all, by a technique called "walking" the barrel. Basically, what you do is rock the barrel back and forth, and while one side is up, you swivel the barrel a few degrees around that center point, and when the barrel rocks back so the other end is up, you rotate the barrel in the opposite direction. If you don't see what I mean, get a football and pretend it's a barrel, you'll figure it out. Alastair MacMillan, writing from the shire of Isenfir, in Atlantia From: ALBAN at delphi.COM Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: barrels Date: 20 Apr 1996 12:27:14 -0400 Organization: The Internet So I read all these messages on cooperage and barrels and sources and such, and one burning question comes to mind: Why do barrels have curved sides? Wouldn't it make more sense to make 'em straight? Alban From: "Michael W. Bushroe" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: RE: Barrels Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 23:21:03 -0700 Organization: The River In the question of why the staves are tapered to produce a vertical curve, as well as the circular cross section, I offer two more possibilities. The first is that it requires greater skill to make the hoops EXACLTY the right diameter if the barrel is cylindrical. It also would require heating each hoop before applying it, just like the metal rim of a spoked wheel. The tapered ends allow a hoop of approximately the right size to be hammered on cold, and as has been mentioned elsewhere, tightened later by hammering it further up the slope. A second reason is that when the staves are bent in at the ends to produce the taper, they are pressed very firmly against each other in the middle. This makes it much easier to get the middle of each stave to seal against the others next to it. This pressure in-ward in the middle of each stave should also help contain the out-ward pressure of the liquid within. In service to the Dream Misha From: David Corliss Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: RE: Barrels Date: 26 Apr 1996 15:24:13 GMT Organization: Parke-Davis Retrospective Validation "Michael W. Bushroe" wrote: >In the question of why the staves are tapered to produce a vertical >curve, as well as the circular cross section, I offer two more >possibilities. > > The first is that it requires greater skill to make the hoops EXACLTY >the right diameter if the barrel is cylindrical. It also would require >heating each hoop before applying it, just like the metal rim of a spoked >wheel. The tapered ends allow a hoop of approximately the right size to >be hammered on cold, and as has been mentioned elsewhere, tightened later >by hammering it further up the slope. But that's not how you build a barrel: You get the hoops and line them with the staves. The *last* stave is carefully fitted to be very slightly too large to just slide into place. It is then dirven in with a mallet. The barrel is filled with water and swells as the wood absorbs the water. The hoops, of course, do not swell: this seals the barrel. (Never put stuff you want to keep in a dry barrel - it will leak out.) > A second reason is that when the staves are bent in at the ends to >produce the taper, they are pressed very firmly against each other in the >middle. Why? I am a physicist and I don't get this. As stated above, a barrel is sealed by wedging in the last stave and filling it with water. Beorthwine of Grafham Wood/David Corliss Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:04:46 -0400 From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow) Subject: Re: SC - kegs and barrels >According to the catalog these barrels are "lined with parafin for water >tightness", so it sounds as if they have been designed to hold liquids. As to >whether or not brewers pitch is period I am not sure. I have been looking for >it to use to seal the interior of leather bottles and mugs. I do know it is >made from natural pine tar. > >Noemi "...But it may also be proper to give an account of the method of preparing wine, as Greek authors have written special treatises on this subject and have made a scientific system for it -for instance Euphronius, Aristomachus, Commiades and Hicesius. The practice in Africa is to soften any roughness with gypsum, and also in some parts of the country with lime. In Greece, on the other hand, they enliven the smoothness of their wines with potter's earth or marble dust or salt or sea-water, while in some parts of Italy they use resinous pitch for this purpose, and it is the general practice both there and in the neighbouring provinces to season must with resin; in some places they use the lees of older wine or else vinegar for seasoning... In some places they boil the must down into what is called sapa, and pour this into their wines to overcome their harshness. *** Still both in the case of this kind of wine and in all others they supply the vessels themselves with coatings of pitch... *** The method of seasoning wine is to sprinkle the must with pitch during its first fermentation, which is completed in nine days at most, so that the wine may be given the scent of pitch and some touches of its piquant flavour..." Pliny , Natural History, c. 77 A.D., Book XIV, section XXIV, pp. 265-269. (Excerpted from "A Sip Through Time", p. 244.) Cindy Renfrow renfrow at skylands.net http://www.alcasoft.com/renfrow/ From: bjm10 at cornell.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: HELP PLEASE: Cooperage and Beer Kegs Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 10:05:58 -0400 caradoc at news.neta.com (John Groseclose) wrote: > That would be Jas. Townsend and Sons. I believe their web site is > "www.jastown.com". They've got some nice stuff, including barrels lined > with paraffin and/or brewers pitch, IIRC. You do not want a lined barrel for casking. What you want is a properly-made unlined barrel. It is possible to get oak barrels from wine-making supply houses. The problem is that they are almost invariably American white oak--incredibly tannic. If you get such casks, you will need to soak them for several months in some kind of ethanol solution to draw off the excess tannins--something like wine... Remember, the purpose of casking ale/beer in an oak cask is not to impart an oaky flavor. It is to allow it to age. Oak was the wood of choice because it was the most stable and strongest wood available in most areas--I would wager that, like excess smokiness, excess oakiness was actually a flaw throughout most of brewing history. The majority of mediocre beers may have had it, but that does not mean that it was the ideal. However, TV commercials aside, there is value in "milder" woods, too, like beechwood. From: KB- Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: HELP PLEASE: Cooperage and Beer Kegs Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 00:34:06 -0700 Bryan J. Maloney wrote: > You do not want a lined barrel for casking. What you want is a > properly-made unlined barrel. Thank you everyone for your responses, I very much appreciate the interests and imputs. To bring this to a circle I would like to expound upon what Mr. Maloney wrote. It is very true that oak is not a preferred wood for both styles of beer (ale/lager) and that almost any other less tannined wood being better, especially beech. The reason oak got it's popularity in the area of storing wine was not so much the strength of the oak but because of it's flavor/tannins. Many different woods were used for storing and aging wine without little concern for it's affect on the wine. Until modern fermenting techniques were developed where sanitation and yeast purity could be controlled, even the most carefully prepared must would suffer some tinge of bacillism. Once it was realized that the strong smoky flavor of oak could both stop the bacillism before it turned the wine to vinegar and hide the astringent flavor of infected wine it became the wood of choice. Mr. Maloney, you are absolutely correct about the purpose of casking beer, for age not flavor. The main reason for aging in casks as opposed to carboy or bottles is twofold. First is that unlike glass, wood is porous, regardless of how hard it is. It is this porosity that allows the cask to 'sweat' draining off excess water from the wort during final fermentation and aging. This affects the brew by increasing it's body and acts as a pressure valve for the cask allowing for greater carbonation which makes for a creamier and more stiff head. Second, and perhaps most important, is that the wood completely protects the beer from sunlight. This is important because it is sunlight that breaks down the prerserving characteristics of the hop's lupulin. Protecting the beer allows for a longer aging time which equates to better beer. Anyone who knows and/or enjoys the difference between a typical 'light' beer and a more traditional lagered porter, stout or bock understands the need for time in proper aging. The only real problem with buying a premade cask/keg is that you run into the problem of cash and quality. To purchase a barrel that would be made with same respect and care as if you had made it yourself would quite expectedly gut your budget, and to settle for something affordable is well, settling. After all, the barrel is to the beer as the womb is to the babe. So, thank you again for responses and as soon as I find what I am looking for I will be more than happy to post here so that any who are interested may hopefully benefit. Hearts to Burn, Fists to Forge, Life to Live, All for Love- KB- From: Daniel W. Butler-Ehle Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: HELP PLEASE: Cooperage and Beer Kegs Date: 18 Jul 1998 19:21:33 GMT Organization: Michigan Technological University John Groseclose wrote: : Bryan J. Maloney (bjm10 at cornell.edu) wrote: : : In article <6onid0$3rp$1 at news.neta.com>, caradoc at news.neta.com (John : : Groseclose) wrote: : : > That would be Jas. Townsend and Sons. I believe their web site is : : > "www.jastown.com". They've got some nice stuff, including barrels lined : : > with paraffin and/or brewers pitch, IIRC. : : You do not want a lined barrel for casking. What you want is a : : properly-made unlined barrel. : Which they can also provide... I wouldn't use the lined barrels for : anything, myself, since a well-soaked barrel shouldn't leak anyway. Are you sure? Last year they said they could only get the lined ones. BTW, although they do sell brewers' pitch, their catalog states that the barrels are lined with parafin. I question whether pitch is really used at all in coopering anymore. I would wonder about the quality of any barrel which, straight from the cooper, relies on wax to maintain its seal. I would absolutely love to find a source of untoasted neutral wood barrels. The char and oak flavor from my (supposedly un-toasted) American oak barrels is so over-powering that only the heaviest beers remain palatable. (Actually, it's kinda nice with my porters.) And that's after soaking it with a lye solution for a month (changing it every four or five days. (A careful citric acid wash then neutralizes the alkali.) Dave Line (in _Big Book of Brewing_, I believe) mentions that if you come into posession of a char-lined wine barrel, you have to take it to a cooper who will disassemble it, scrape the staves and put it back together. I doubt that this activity would be particularly economical. Now my question is "Where the heck do I get a replacement bung for the one that fell apart last time I removed it? (I've found wooden keg plugs on the net, but none small enough to fit my three-gallon keg.)" Ulfin From: Brett and Karen Williams Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: HELP PLEASE: Cooperage and Beer Kegs Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 17:58:58 -0700 Daniel W. Butler-Ehle wrote: *much snippage* > Now my question is "Where the heck do I get a replacement bung > for the one that fell apart last time I removed it? (I've found > wooden keg plugs on the net, but none small enough to fit my > three-gallon keg.)" > > Ulfin Might I suggest the Lehman's Non-Electric folks over in Ohio? (no connection, except many years of drooling over their catalog...) They carry old-style coopered oak barrels, paraffin-lined, charred and plain, from 1-gal. up to 30 gal. sizes-- taps, spigots and replacement bungs, too. getinfo at lehmans.com http://www.lehmans.com/ [submitted by Christina -ed] ciorstan From: Daniel W. Butler-Ehle Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: HELP PLEASE: Cooperage and Beer Kegs Date: 19 Jul 1998 18:03:30 GMT Organization: Michigan Technological University Brett and Karen Williams wrote: : Might I suggest the Lehman's Non-Electric folks over in Ohio? (no : connection, except many years of drooling over their catalog...) : They carry old-style coopered oak barrels, paraffin-lined, charred and : plain, from 1-gal. up to 30 gal. sizes-- taps, spigots and replacement : bungs, too. Thanks for the tip. I have a Lehmans's catalog from a few years ago, but their barrel supplies were much more limited than what you describe. I'll have to get a new catalog (I've been checking their Web page frequently over the past year, but they still don't list barrels; the Web catalog is rather abridged from the print version). Most of their items are a bit overpriced (their main business seems to be selling to tourists, not actual homesteaders). I can find most of it cheaper elsewhere, but they have it all in one place. As much as I balk at the prices, I do recommend the catalog to historical re-creationists. Ulfin From: pug at pug.net (Pug Bainter) Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing,rec.crafts.winemaking,rec.org.sca,rec.woodworking Subject: Coopering summary... Date: 27 Nov 1998 07:52:34 -0600 Organization: GlobeSet, Inc. A little more than a week ago, I asked about coopering resources. This is a summary of the correspondences I got. I have cross-posted this to the 4 newsgroups that I received information from. Information is posted in no particular order. Btw, I have been reading _The Cooper and His Trade_ and besides being a little stream of thought and a little sketchy on the early historical conclusions, it's a very good book. It came *very* highly recommended by several people. As far as what I'm going to do next, I think I will take up white coopering in the spring, and see if I can transition to dry then wet after I have that down. ---- Books: Foxfire series of books - No. 3 has an article on churns The Cooper and His Trade, by Kenneth Kilby - Linden Pub. http://www.lindenpub.com Count with the cooper, by Barbara Gibson Village Cooper (Shire Album, No 28), by Kenneth Kilby Cooperage for Winemakers, by G. Schahinger and B. Rankine - Ryan Publications ---- Magazines: Fine Woodworking on Woodshop Specialties - ISBN 0-918804-75-2 / Fine woodworking, issue 15 (March 1979) Fine Woodworking on Bending Wood - ISBN 0-918804-29-9 ---- Websites: www.williamsburg.com - Colonial Williamsburg http://mailmunch.law.cornell.edu/mhonarc/OLDTOOLS/ - Old Tools mailing list archives http://mailmunch.law.cornell.edu/listservs/OLDTOOLS/1733.html http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Old_tools/about.htm - Early American Industries Association http://www.interlog.com/~mmarino/ http://www.mcs.net/~rallen/galoots/coopering/html/index.html http://www.monticello.org/Matters/industries/coopers.html http://countrylife.net/offthegrid/forum2/4997.html http://www.csu.edu.au/stupatch/csuwine - coopering info in mid January http://www.louislatour.com/html/coopering.html http://www.cooperage.com ---- Other: Arrowmont School in Gatlinburg, TN occasionally offers week-long classes on coopering CAMRA 16 minute short film made in the 80's on Sweeney Barrel in Vancouver ---- I probably missed someone, but thanks should go out to at least: Jonathan P Smith Mairghread inghean Eanruig Esther Heller dave Norman White Real Lalonde Jeff Joslin N.D. Wederstrandt Mark John McGaw Pasquale Rinaldo C.E.(Chuck) Ring NomDeNette jerry Jay Conner -- Richard "Pug" Bainter | GlobeSet, Inc. System & Network Admin. Manager | 1250 S. Capital of Tx Hwy, 1-300 pug at GlobeSet.com | pug at pug.net | Austin, TX 78746 From: qxd at foto.infi.net (Jim Mowreader) Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing,rec.crafts.winemaking,rec.org.sca,rec.woodworking Subject: Re: Coopering summary... Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 20:40:31 -0500 In article <365F392E.9E7E84B6 at cts.com>, Mark wrote: > The trade was further divided into wet coopers (who could make > water-tight containers) and dry coopers (who made containers for > nails, apples, etc,). Also called slack cooperage (nail kegs, cracker barrels) and tight cooperage (liquid-holding barrels). BTW, white oak is the wood of the tight cooper. From: pug at pug.net (Pug Bainter) Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing,rec.crafts.winemaking,rec.org.sca,rec.woodworking Subject: Re: Coopering summary... Date: 28 Nov 1998 07:38:19 -0600 Organization: GlobeSet, Inc. Mark wrote: >The trade was further divided into wet coopers (who could make >water-tight containers) and dry coopers (who made containers for >nails, apples, etc,). From my reading so far, there are 3 general classes, with specialists in each of these. These are listed in the order of difficulty. 1) White cooper. They make buckets, tubs, butter churns, etc. They use straight staves for these devices. 2) Dry cooper. They store "dry" goods, such as apples, nails, etc. There is a specialist under this called dry-tight cooper for things like fish, that have to be stored in a liquid but are technically dry goods. Another distinguishing difference is that this type use cheaper wood and thinner metal rings since they are typically only used once or so. 3) Wet cooper. They store liquid goods such as beer, wine, jams, etc. As for the types of woods, many kinds are used in each field. The wet cooper tends towards your flavorless oaks so they do not impart much flavor to what is being stored in them. If they have a strong flavor/smell (such as American oaks) they tend to be treated on the inside with such things as pitch, beeswax, or some industrial plastics. -- Richard "Pug" Bainter | GlobeSet, Inc. System & Network Admin. Manager | 1250 S. Capital of Tx Hwy, 1-300 pug at GlobeSet.com | pug at pug.net | Austin, TX 78746 From: Heather Rose Jones Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: coopering barrels with rope Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 19:56:25 -0700 Organization: University of California, Berkeley From: "Uryen / K Grayson" uryen at kooee.com.au >I have decided to try to make a barrel using rope, instead of metal bands >this time (Ive made a barrel before), for a more period appearance. I'm a little bit curious why you think a rope-bound barrel would have a more period appearance than a metal-bound one. Are there examples of this you're trying to reproduce? In addition to the ubiquitous metal-bound barrels, buckets, etc. I've seen museum examples of stave-built objects bound with wood (bind it green and it shrinks when it dries). I don't recall seeing any bound with rope, which is why I'm wondering. Tangwystyl ********* Heather Rose Jones hrjones at socrates.berkeley.edu From: wbfountain at aol.comnospam (Wm. Bryan Fountain) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Date: 01 Jul 2001 03:07:43 GMT Subject: Re: coopering barrels with rope >> >I have decided to try to make a barrel using rope, instead of metal bands >> >this time (Ive made a barrel before), for a more period appearance. > >I'm a little bit curious why you think a rope-bound barrel would have a >more period appearance than a metal-bound one. Are there examples of >this you're trying to reproduce? > >In addition to the ubiquitous metal-bound barrels, buckets, etc. I've >seen museum examples of stave-built objects bound with wood (bind it >green and it shrinks when it dries). I don't recall seeing any bound >with rope, which is why I'm wondering. Several of the examples I have seen documented in the "foxfire" book series show how to use "splits" of green wood or vines to make the binding - I will try and find you the exact references. Ld Brun Canutteson - resident of the Midlands - (Midrealm) Squire & Seige Engineer for House VonBrandenburg MKA - Wm. Bryan Fountain Asst. Professor of Industrial Technology Sauk Valley Community College Dixon, IL From: "Uryen / K Grayson" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: coopering barrels with rope Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 18:22:27 +1000 Wm. Bryan Fountain wrote >Several of the examples I have seen documented in the "foxfire" book series >show how to use "splits" of green wood or vines to make the binding - I >will try and find you the exact references. Ive seen examples of wood-binding too. That was going to be my next project :-) My theory is that the majority of rope bound barrels were for everyday trade use. Therefore few would have survived. My 'proof' is a period picture showing 12 individual hoops on a wine barrel. Which I think would be unnessesary for metal hoops, but probable for both rope and vine bindings. The other reason is because thats what they always use in movies set in period (hey! Im allowed :-) Uryen / K Grayson From: Ralph Lindberg & Ellen Winnie Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: coopering barrels with rope Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 08:54:34 -0700 "Uryen / K Grayson" wrote: > what you do is get the planks that have been cut close to the heart. the > growth rings run almost perpendicular to the long side. quite a search is > required, but eventually you can collect enough decent quality wood. All you need to do is buy "quarter-sawn heart wood". Of course what that costs.... From my reading metal banding goes back as far as I've been able learn about cooperage. I suspect that non-metal banding was used only for cheaper cooperage, maybe only for the units that were not intended for "wet" storage. Me, the best I've done is white cooperage (ie buckets). Ralg -- Ralph Lindberg personal email n7bsn at amsat.org From: wtp at nds10758.cb.lucent.com (Powers) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: coopering barrels with rope Date: 10 Jul 2001 21:41:13 GMT Organization: Lucent Technologies, Columbus, Ohio >I, for one, was unaware that different ropes would stretch >differently. Although I believe leather does expand when >wet and then shrink as it dries. > >So, I'd be interested in a listing of rope fibers and >whether they expand or contract when wet if anyone has >such a thing handy. I'm mostly interested in the period >rope materials, but modern ones would be nice too, since >that may have to be what I use for some projects. Linen, line *not* tow, tightens when wet. raw hide, as noted, stretches when wet, shrinks when drying Ramie has the same properties as linen horse hair expands when wet contracts when dry W.Thomas Powers Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 11:24:05 -0400 From: "marilyn traber 011221" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] coopering (barrel making) To: Cooks within the SCA >> but it doesn't do well for storing water or whatever. Wooden barrels would >> seem to be great at SCA events, at least the smaller ones and for eventslike >> Gulf Wars where onsite storage is possible, they wouldn't have to be >> transported back and forth each year. >> >> Stefan > > Wouldn't storing barrels onsite be problematic given that the barrel > really needs to be kept wet? > > Margaret FitzWilliam Actually, you can store them dry, but you really need to have them wet for a couple days, so the wood swells again, for them to hold water again. Or at least, that's what the guys say who use them for slack tubs. I'd dearly love to get my hands on one for my own slack tub and find out for myself. Phlip Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 15:58:27 -0500 From: "Betsy Marshall" Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] coopering (barrel making) To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" Our camp organizer keeps a layer of beeswax on the inside of his/our water barrel- renewing it at the start of each Pennsic. last year I took the old wax home to make candles from it. Since the wax seals any gaps or leaks, no worries about wet/dry cycles. ========= I have several buckets which I dutifully kept submerged all winter, since I live in Denver. The directions that came with advised that submerging was preferable to drying/re-wetting, since the cycling of moisture can warp the staves to the point where they can't hold water even when wet. Of course, they now all have a slime coat, and the steel hoops have rusted and fouled the water. One of these *was* my water "cooler" - not too interested in puting drinking water in it now! Lijsbet Date: Fri, 5 May 2006 00:42:16 -0500 From: Stefan li Rous Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] coopering (barrel making) To: SCA-Cooks maillist SCA-Cooks Simon replied to Devra with: >>>> At 06:51 AM 4/28/2006, Devra wrote: > They have half whiskey barrels here in Brooklyn, which is a lot > closer than California... > Devra I'm in Oregon. The things presumably come from Kentucky & Tennessee. Simon Sinneghe Briaroak, Summits, An Tir <<<< Uh, not necessarily. Initially they are probably from there, but they may have travelled further before they got to the home improvement store near you. In the article "The Brillance of the Barrel" by Wayne Curtis in the Spring 2006 issue of "American Heritage of Invention and Technology" there is a section on the life of used barrels. This is the article I mentioned earlier in this thread, but couldn't find at that time. "Compared with the barrels used for cargo long ago, the casks employed to age whiskey and wine have relatively short life spans. For wine the beneficial qualities of the oak are spent after about five years. And by law bourbon makers can use a barrel only once before discarding it." "We sell them to the Scotch guys," says Fred Noe. "And some tequilla distilleries are buying them now to age their tequillas." "In the West Indies travelers often see barrels from Kentucky and Tennessee lined up at rum distillieres. ... then they end up in the backyard tending germaniums...." "Each of which had cost a bourbon distiller maybe $300, then $150 when it went to a second distiller, and now cost about half that[at the Home Depots and Lowes]". Stefan -------- THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 03:32:09 -0500 From: "Mark S. Harris" Subject: [Sca-cooks] cooperage To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Selene C. asked: <<< Where can one learn cooperage these days? We could make a proper tub of proper materials. Which, of course, brings the topic back around to historical containers, whether for food or for people. :-) >>> Start with: coopering-msg (50K) 7/13/06 Making and maintaining barrels and kegs. In the CRAFTS section of the Florilegium. I think I mention a very good book I got on coopering in there. Okay, Let me pull up my book database... Oh! I've got more books on this than I thought. "The Cooper and His Trade" Kilby, Kenneth ISBN: 0-941936-16-3 Linden Publishing Fresno, Calif. 192 pages This was the one I was thinking of first. "How to Make a Coopered Wooden Bucket: A Beginner's Guide with Detailed Instructions and Illustrations" Gaster, James D. ISBN: 1-57921-798-2 WinePress Publishing WA "Village Cooper (Shire Album, No 28)" Kliby, K. ISBN: 0-85263-392-0 Shire Pubns Aylesbury I had ideas of making wooden casks and buckets for use at events instead of plastic ones. However, reading the first book quickly got rid of any delusions I had of being able to do that. At least for barrels the staves have to be carved to curve in all three dimensions simultaneously. In addition, the wood for these needs to be radially split from a log, not cut with a saw. So I had no source of good source material. However, for a large tub, the staves probably can be done with only a simple curve and a large radius at that. And maybe the use of a lot of sealant. :-) Can I come soak in your hot tub when you finish it? Sigh. Stefan Date: Wed, 06 May 2009 10:15:17 -0400 From: devra at aol.com Subject: [Sca-cooks] coopering To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org I believe that Old Sturbridge Village (MA) has a cooper's shop. Visiting them is always informative and pleasant, even though their 'time' is 1820s. (I truly don't believe that the art changed all that much...) They also have a fairly extensive book selection in their gift shoppeee.? If there's a historic recreation near you, you might ask them... Devra Date: Wed, 06 May 2009 08:34:26 -0700 From: Mark Hendershott Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] cooperage To: Cooks within the SCA One other book of possible use is by Drew Langsner (sp?). He included a section on coopering buckets. Title doesn't come to mind and I am at the office where I can't look at my index. Langsner is still active teaching a course in primitive woodworking in North Carolina. He's written several books. Simon Sinneghe Briaroak, Summits, An Tir From: Raymond Wickham Date: January 3, 2010 1:34:31 AM CST To: Subject: barrels i presume you have seen these http://www.usedwinebarrels.com/ http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/article/0,,1583087,00.html interesting article on where i would have looked for barrels non standard barrels in the uk http://www.kilgraney.com/KFoakbarrels.htm here is a BIG supplier but commercial http://www.rex-change.com/000002/index.html Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 23:16:47 +0000 From: yaini0625 at yahoo.com To: "Cooks within the SCA" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Documenting balsamic? Slow progress Leymans have barrels and containers. Aelina Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 19:13:18 -0500 From: Sharon Palmer To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Documenting balsamic? Slow progress <<< Do you have an website address. It doesn't seem to be readily available with a search. Eduardo >>> http://www.lehmans.com/ They have barrels, the site doesn't list the type of wood, but they might be able to tell you. Ranvaig Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 09:41:15 -0800 From: "Laureen Hart" To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" Subject: [Sca-cooks] Wood Barrels A search for "wood barrels for sale" brings up a lot of hits. Eduardo, I know they have some at the Cellar Homebrew. The Cellar Homebrew 14320 Greenwood Avenue N. Seattle, WA 98133 TEL (206) 365-7660 Randell Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 10:07:58 -0800 (PST) From: Raphaella DiContini To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Wood Barrels They currently have a selection of sizes, but they are all oak. They are looking into the possibility of ordering some of different woods and will call me back. They currently have in stock a 12 gallon for 299.95, a 3 gallon for 226.99, and a 2 gallon for 229.95. The lady I spoke with said they order them at different times and from different suppliers so the price isn't necessarily consistent. Raffaella <<< A search for "wood barrels for sale" brings up a lot of hits. Eduardo, I know they have some at the Cellar Homebrew. The Cellar Homebrew 14320 Greenwood Avenue N. Seattle, WA 98133 TEL (206) 365-7660 Randell >>> Edited by Mark S. Harris coopering-msg Page 25 of 25